yo

You get one highly agitated person and it make for great theater. . .I don’t really think any of that crowd represents much of anything.

I’ve been over at a few pro-clinton blogs and many have moved behind Obama now citing the defeat of McCain as most important.

Bloggers and people that go to stuff like that meeting are political nutcases. . . I know of what I speak!

I was really glad to read the truces between the supporters of both candidates. We are moving forward together with one goal in mind and that is the POTUS.

Did anyone catch that Obama said that the QUDs force in Iran is a terrorist group in that speech to AIPAC? Did I mishear that?

JANE!!!

“only way for Obama to keep her off the ticket is to openly her.”
there’s a word missing here.

FunnyDiva

I didn’t hear the speech so i have no idea

”Bloggers and people that go to stuff like that meeting are political nutcases.”
Agreed. If Harriet Christian is typical, we’re in bigger trouble than we thought.

When are people going to catch on to the Clintons?

The Clintons ran against Bush and Dole and in New York against Lazio and Spencer. No heavy lifting.

The Clintons get up against someone competent and it is a trainwreck for them.

Bottom line: The Clintons ran a messy incompetent campaign, this time around. If their “supporters” will not accept Obama and work for Obama, then Obama has to figure that out and solve that problem. But adding the Clintons to the problem as VP is not going to solve how to deal with the Clintons. And there is no way to cast them as a value add.

Geez, they ran a bad campaign.

As I and many others have commented on other occasions, judge people’s governance by the way they run their campaign.

Jane, I understand what you’re saying, but I really think you’re leaving a large hole in your argument. To be an unwavering supporter of Clinton-only alla time at this stage of the game, seems to me, is to totally deny the tactics that Clinton herself has used in this campaign. It is those tactics, more than anything, certainly more than sexism, that cost her this nomination.

I agree the torch was passed on the rules committee day, said same at my wee blog. But the telegraphing was there, recalling back to Donna Brazile’s ”…there, I’ve said it” moment.

The current situation surely will test the mettle of Obama to deliver as a negotiator. But one cannot do less than ask the Clintonistas to come to the negotiating table in good faith. And given the month-long buildup of a battle plan for the veep slot, I’d say that good faith, by Clinton and her close associates, has been sorely lacking.

I’m with Hilary Rosen on this one. I’m a Democrat, a liberal feminist post menopausal educated blue collar Democrat. And I will not be a bargaining chip for a spoiler.

Quds Force
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Army of the Guardians of
the Islamic Revolution

Command
Supreme Leader of Iran
Senior officers
Military Branches
Air Force
Ground Force
Navy
Quds Force
Basij
Missile Forces
Missile Forces
Personnel
Ranks insignia
Facilities
Baqiyatallah University
History
Iranian Revolution
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The Quds Force (Persian: نیروی قدس, translit. Niru e Qods, Quds is the Arabic name for Jerusalem), is a special unit of Iran’s Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution. The Federation of American Scientists, in a document from 1998, says the primary mission of the Quds Force is to organize, train, equip, and finance foreign Islamic revolutionary movements. It further states that the Quds Force maintains and builds contacts with underground Islamic militant organizations throughout the Islamic world.[1]

very well said. I just went and read Rosen’s column and found it very interesting.

The very premise that OBAMA has done something to Clinton offends me greatly. He has not. He doesn’t owe HER anything. He will be just fine with her sane supporters and to hell with the INsane ones.

Besides Caroline Kennedy has been chosen to lead the search for his veep. Sorry, but I don’t see her taking a chance on Ms. Clinton.

Chit, sorry bout that formatting.

He kicked her fanny, does that offend you?

Jane Hamsher:

What is the intent behind this?

When Hillary Clinton herself signaled yesterday that she’d like the VP position, and chose not to concede last night, the only way for Obama to keep her off the ticket is to openly reject her. It will be a clear statement to many of her female supporters — culled from one of the largest voting blocks in the Democratic party — that she is unwanted.

If she really “wants” the VP slot, she’s politically clumsy to put Obama on the spot this way. If she wants to nurse an air of grievance, however…

Jane, is poor Walter all right?

Only if you’re British.

Yes well that is the crux of the matter, isn’t it?

Did anyone catch that Obama said that the QUDs force in Iran is a terrorist group in that speech to AIPAC? Did I mishear that?

No, you heard that right.

Jane, who said that line about “mother getting some exercise”? I think leaving that in was brilliant!

“We don’t hurl insulting, berating remarks at Obama supporters, or at Obama himself or his family,” Debbie Head, a 40-year-old from Austin, Texas, complained to me.

Sigh. Debbie, I believe that you and most of the people you know do not. Why is it so hard to believe that a) some Clinton supporters _do_ and b) that most Obama supporters do _not_ behave this way?

Time to stop lumping each campaign’s supporters into some kind of homogeneous group. Time to start being very clear about which subsets one might mean. Time to be able to say, yeah, some on “my” side have been truly nasty, and I’m sorry you were on the receiving end. Time to realize that analysis of a candidate’s supporters is NOT a personal critique of any individual supporter of that candidate.

Time to stop looking for any excuse to say “But THEY did it”. Time to start giving each other the benefit of the doubt–to assume that what may look like an insult or attack wasn’t intended that way…to ask for clarification. Time to mostly as individual concerned citizens first and as part of any identifiable group to a lesser degree.

Time to dismantle the circular firing squad. Either Democratic contender’s negatives are as nothing compared to McCain’s. One’s worst nightmare of how a Clinton or Obama administration might disappoint are nothing as compared to how a McCain administration will destroy the country.

FunnyD

I think that this whole discussion of us ”passionate” Clinton supporters misses the point.

First off, those of us who are ardently for Clinton didn’t start out that way. Most of us chose Clinton when the only alternative left was Obama — and it was not because of any antipathy toward Obama — he lacked experience — and with the mess the country is in, we don’t have time for on-the-job training — and one look at his past made it clear that he was extremely vulnerable to right-wing attacks. Clinton was the ”safe” choice we settled for.

And we’ve watched with admiration as Clinton turned into something far better than we’d imagined, and Obama turned into something far worse than we’d feared. ANd as a result I think most of us are sitting out november as of right now — McCain will be a short term disaster that will permit a democratic recovery in 2012, Obama will be better than McCain in the short term, but will be a long term disaster for the party (we’ll lose Congress in 2010, and the white house in 2012, and it will be at least a decade before the party recovers from the Obama debacle.

But the point is that most of Clintons support isn’ people like us — they aren’t people who were lost sleep over the idea of not voting for the Democrat. And Obama lost a large chunk of those Clinton voters already, and is poised to lose more.

And that is what the Villagers (and apparently, the blogosphere elite) either don’t understand or don’t care about — the millions and millions of regular voters that Obama has alienated over the last three months. These include EVERYONE who was part of the ”Bill Clinton coalition” except for African American voters — everyone else was thrown under the bus… and they know it.

This is why Clinton kept winning… huge numbers of Democratic voters were telling the party that Barack Obama was NOT acceptable to them, even though he was the ”inevitable” nominee, then the ”presumptive” nominee. They were told that it was over, and they still came out to vote to say NO!

The big difference is that in general (especially early on), the Clinton supporters didn’t have anything personally against Obama. They didn’t prefer him to Clinton, that was all. But on the other side, the anti-Hillary punditry and blogwash was astounding. They didn’t just prefer Obama, the hated Clinton. It was personal, not political, since her voting record, with the single exception of the war authorization vote, was more progressive than Obama’s. For a lot of early Obama (and Edwards) supporters, it was simply a matter of “anybody but that stupid DLC bitch Clinton!” Faced with that reality, I think I understand her campaign’s strategy: what choice did she have that gave her any chance to secure the nomination but to go negative on Obama and, in effect, level the playing field? If both candidates have equal “negatives”, this scenario goes, then the choice comes down to the better qualified candidate, which she and her supporters truly believe she is. Otherwise, she was lost before she even began due to the hatred of her being spewed by so many progressive Democrats. The fact that her and Obama’s positions are nearly identical meant that the candidate with the least negatives wins.

Thank you, Prairie.
Eloquently and elegantly put. Proud to be at the General Election barricades with you!

FunnyD

That’s it buster, if we don;t buy your line we just don’t understand.

Being prez is definitely on the job training in the first term. How do you get experience to be prez?
Scroll.

s

c

r

o

l

l

I’m so sick of this election that I probably won’t vote for prez for the first time in my eligible life. It’s also why I don’t comment here much anymore. It’s all been said, and badly.

Am I alone in still awaiting the “Congrats Sen. Obama” post?

Well, I guess we know where you stand Jane. I am 62 years old. I would rather have Obama as president as someone who acts as vicious, male or demale, as she has. And when she spoke glowingly of McCain and against Obama, I knew it was over as far as I was concerned supporting her.

You are daring Obama to do what she wants. And her supporters do not care what happens to the party. They only care about a woman not getting what they think she deserves. There is much unfairness in life. I have always been told to get over it and move on.

Hillary now is threatening Obama. I will take MY voters, not dem voters, and go home if do not get exactly what I want. Before last night, I might have bene open to it.

Not now.

And I now know what the struggle between Hillary and Obama has never had much play here. Because TalkLeft Jacklyn is a friend and you support her positions.

Just so we know where everyone stands. Feminism is not getting exactly what you demand all the time. I expect men to be fair, polite, and gracious. I expect no less for women.

I have no idea why you asked that question in response to what I wrote, but to answer it no, I’m truly grateful he kicked her fanny.

We’re (Clinton, Obama supporters, the dem party) are moving forward together to elect those that will bring relief to the american people. It would be great if you join us. If you don’t, please don’t believe for one moment that democrats are going to stomach any spew about a dem nominee. If that is the audience you’re searching for, you will find a more recieiving audience with the republicans.

“We don’t hurl insulting, berating remarks at Obama supporters, or at Obama himself or his family,” Debbie Head, a 40-year-old from Austin, Texas, complained to me.

”Sigh. Debbie, I believe that you and most of the people you know do not. Why is it so hard to believe that a) some Clinton supporters _do_ and b) that most Obama supporters do _not_ behave this way?”

Sorry. A) Generalism B) Untrue

You said he didn’t do anything to her. I disagreed.

ANd as a result I think most of us are sitting out november as of right now — McCain will be a short term disaster that will permit a democratic recovery in 2012,…

As the father of a kid who will most likely *be* in Irak in about a year, if we don’t get the hell out of there before then, I want to thank you for your selfless determination to make a meaningless point, and enable John McCain to keep us in Irak for fucking ever.

You’re a big man, in the, you know, facetious sense of the word.

this over-fifty farm-raised white postmenopausal woman has considered Hill n Bill moderate Republicans (in the old-fashioned pre-fundy sense) since before bill’s presidency. I’d rather have Hillary than ANY of the rethugs that were in this year’s GOP primary. But between Senators Clinton and Obama, i prefer Obama’s leadership style.

They were told that it was over, and they still came out to vote to say NO!

I think you have summed up Jane’s point right there. Obama may very well need Hillary to unify the party.

Or more to the point, by putting Obama on the spot and “forcing” him to offer her the VP slot. She then gets “repsected” in public. ANd could gracefully decline if she chose.

By bending a knee in her direction, which BTW would be the gracious thing for him to do, Obama gets to display his repect for Hillary supporters and may win many of them back.

If he is more concerned with his own pride htan he is with unofying the party, he will publicly reject and humilate her, but end up damaging himself and th party in the process.

He won. He could do himslef a ton of good by being a good winner and jumping over the tennis net to offer his hand in freindship

Well now you should support and vote for Obama. I donated to the Clintons at the beginning of this primary season, partly out of habit and partly because I did not believe Obama had a chance. At that time, I thought Hillary Clinton was a complete and utter waste of time, an undeveloped person who had childlike personal ambitions to be president of the class. BUT I thought better her than Justice Roberts.

Now it your responsibility to go for Obama, on any rational basis that you can.

Perhaps. But why cast it as VP or total rejection: “not wanted”? Why make it either/or? Looks like a false dichotomy to me.

Only Hillary really knows what she wants. How she chooses to pursue it will say more about her as a politician than about Obama, IMO.

FunnyDiva

No you are not alone. A real opportunity was lost last night to put up a wonderful tribute to a truly historic moment. Instead we got a string of unrelated posts. Really, really disappointing.

We don’t need a post (though it would be nice)
Congrats Senator Obama for becoming the dem nominee.

Congrats Senator Clinton for running a strong campaign

Thanks to you both for exciting the party and bringing in new people to the party.

What specifically has Obama said that alienated Clinton supporters. He does not, and did not, support the Iraq war. He has never, that I heard said derogatory things about her. Always granted her the right to run as long as she wanted.

What did he do, not some of his supports, but he do that got you voting for McCain instead of Obama?

Sorry, I’ve learned to be knee-jerk defensive this primary season.

You know, if you ask him questions he’s probably going to answer. How’s that worked out so far?

I’m so sorry, eCAHN. I’ve really missed having you around. Take care, and I’ll look forward to when you feel you can come back. Hope that doesn’t take until August, or Nov or January.

((((eCAHN))))

FunnyD

I said it in the last thread, and I’ll say it again: Clinton has about 18 million supporters (data from ABC). The Harriet Christians need to be palliated. It would be helpful if Obama teamed up with Clinton as VP on the ticket. I think a moderate Democrat who’s non-progressive (Obama) can yield a little to a Democrat who’s non-progressive (Clinton). It’s a small price to pay for beating that f*cist McCain, lest we end up with another Scalito and another war or two.

Great Post Jane here is a Digg for all your effort in putting this post together!! Now all you Good Pups need to Digg this post!

there is no evidence that Clinton wants to be VP. Why would she want it? She’s been “co-president’ for eight years already. For a place in history? With Obama as likely to lose to McCain as he is, she’d wouldn’t even be “historical”, just the SECOND woman to be on a losing ticket in a Presidential election.

Obots are constantly projecting their own venality on Clinton — that’s why she keeps succeeding despite their predictions of failure and concession.

I personally think that she’s doing it for the country — she knows/thinks that Obama probably can’t win, and if he does he’ll be a disaster for the country (and the party.) Anyone who has watched Hillary Clinton over the past three months who isn’t a misogynistic Clinton-hater knows that this is not about HER, its about doing what’s right.

Thanks. (((FD)))

Did Obama just win the nomination? Why aren’t people all- well -HAPPY?

This Obama/Hillary thing is beyond me..

there seems to be more going on than a primary election battle?

Jane, your t00b made it over to blogs for mccain too!, lol.

Hillary Supporters Unite! Vote Macain!!!

How exquisitely intricate (”Bending a knee”? The guy just won the nomination and you’re asking him to curtsy?). If this is really the intent, wouldn’t it have been better to do it less publicly, and less challengingly?

I and others have missed you. Someone asked where you were yesterday, in fact.

RE: VP pick.

Speaking as one of the woman’s constituents, not Patty Murray! She generally means well, and I’ll happily vote for her again if/when she runs for her seat, but she is not remotely presidential timber. She’s just not very bright.

”We don’t need a post (though it would be nice)
Congrats Senator Obama for becoming the dem nominee.

Congrats Senator Clinton for running a strong campaign

Thanks to you both for exciting the party and bringing in new people to the party.”

Thanks wobblybits for this comment. More talk like this would go a long way toward unifying the party.

In sports the losing team gets out-played and the same is true in politics. It is not personal and should never be taken that way.

What am I missing? Obama has been gracious. Praising in his words about Clinton when, frankly, she doesn’t deserve it for the abominable campaign of racebaiting–for starters–cronyism Rovian playbook tactics.

Brazile signalled for many that Clinton was coddled in ways that male candidates would. Yes, while she was treated unfairly in some quarters. But then, what candidate has not been?

Where is Clinton’s good faith?

Obama supporters presumably trust their candidate to do the right thing to bring Hillary supporters to the fold- true?

They don’t wish for him ta tell em ta piss up a rope and therefore lose the election—true?

I said it in the last thread, and I’ll say it again: Clinton has about 18 million supporters (data from ABC). The Harriet Christians need to be palliated. It would be helpful if Obama teamed up with Clinton as VP on the ticket. I think a moderate Democrat who’s non-progressive (Obama) can yield a little to a Democrat who’s non-progressive (Clinton). It’s a small price to pay for beating that f*cist McCain, lest we end up with another Scalito and another war or two.

I agree with every word.

Welcome to the minority. *g*

I’m quite happy. Overjoyes in fact. I will be even moreso when we defeat Mccain as a unified party

I think many Clinton supporters felt she was more solid on healthcare after adopting Edwards plan. She also challenged Timmeh Russert on his Republican framing of social security, and talked of scrapping No Child Left Behind. She definitely has strengths where Obama has been weak. And probably v.v. It really should be a team.

OT, but pathetic: “Police kill man in standoff over FEMA trailer”

The man didn’t like it when FEMA showed up for an arguably illegal search and entry of his toxic trailer (they were searching all of them in the neighborhood for some reason). They got the cops.. there was a stand off, they shot him. Could someone please tell me that President Obama will make this stuff not happen anymore?

Funny, I was thinking about you this morning and wondered if you’d gone on a no-tube vacation. We’re all sick of it, but last night was really fun. Where are the YouTubes comparing the McCane/Obama speeches?

Obama/Clinton ‘08!

huge numbers of Democratic voters were telling the party that Barack Obama was NOT acceptable to them,

Huge numbers of Democratic voters didn’t tell us the same thing about Clinton?

The rest of this comment, meanwhile, is defeatism in something close to its historical meaning. I always liked that term “Vichy Democrats” for the DLC.

Hey wobblybits seems to agrees with us (downthread), eh wobbly?

He can’t do it alone. We (the supporters) have to do it as well. It starts with stopping all this ‘us’ and ‘them’ stuff.

You are daring Obama to do what she wants. And her supporters do not care what happens to the party. They only care about a woman not getting what they think she deserves.

nore projection from the Obots.

Listen… if necessary to stop Obama, I think Clinton should agree to step aside and let some like Gore or Edwards run. Hell, you can even have Obama for VP.

This isn’t about Hillary for us. Yeah, she earned it. Yeah, she deserves it. Yeah, people like you have been projecting your own viciousness on her for the last six months, and that hasn’t been fair to her.

But we support HER because we care about the country — not “the party”, and not “Hillary Clinton”. The country.

She doesn’t know what she wants, and whatever it might be her current behavior will insure that she doesn’t get it. Political malpractice of the highest order.

yep

It’s not all about Hillary, it’s about Obama. I heard on the radio that in exit polling from last night, 1/3 of the Hillary voters would not vote for Obama. That would translate into a lot of votes NOT being cast for Obama.

Hmm, the alternate universe argument, quite cogent there, illogical here.

By bending a knee in her direction

O.M.F.G.

White lady needs to be courted, eh? She lost by running a hateful, racist, divisive,stupid,disrespectful campaign and HE needs to BEND A KNEE?

O.M.F.G.

Guess you should call us dem-bots now. We have a dem nominee and it is our job, our responsibility to get him and others downticket elected.

That dude’s privacy rights disappeared before the Patriot Act, but the Patriot Act cemented the deal. If he didn’t have anything to hide, then he should have let the cop inspect his house. /s I hear this too often.

I am not sure that Obama supporters and surrogates have been er. . . gracious winners. I suspect a lot of negativity floating in the media often came from the Obama camp. Call me a tinfoil hat wearer.

And when she spoke glowingly of McCain and against Obama, I knew it was over as far as I was concerned supporting her.

They only care about a woman not getting what they think she deserves. There is much unfairness in life. I have always been told to get over it and move on.

As I asked right before your post, where is the love?

For today to be ‘All Hillary, All The Time’, is patently unfair to Barack Obama and I, for one, expected better from here.

Hey, sunny.
If I can do it without sounding condescending, I forgive ya!
Lots of us are feeling knee-jerk defensive. I’m trying to be patient while individual folks realize it and decide to correct it for themselves. Unfortunately, patience has never been one of my virtues.

Pax

FunnyD

I’m actually the one that wrote it. She just quoted me. While I could say somthing equally snide about reading carefully and such, I’ll just leave it with:

Congrats to Senator Obama for becoming the presumptive Nominee.

who lukasiak? 86? Like bully someone with a difference of opinion. He’s been around longer than I have and that’s kind of a long time.

Those are good points, and I thought your earlier comment on an earlier thread expressing your resignation to a choice between two imperfect candidates was well said. But you’re attaching disproportionate weight to comments made to Tim Russert and an aspect of her health care policy, and none to her war vote(s). Whether it was cowardice, bad judgment or lack of morality, she has never renounced it and even indirectly reaffirmed it by her “Commander-in-Chief threshold” comments about McCain. Even if she genuinely rues the vote and genuinely wants in her heart or hearts to end the war, she would have put herself and the party in a ruinous tactical — and moral — position of not being able to criticize the precepts and premises behind this war — the “mindset”, as Obama has repeatdly put it.

tinfoil hat wearer *g* I will give you that SOME have not acted gracious but others have been very gracious. It’s not fair for either candidates or their supporters to be painted with a broad brush, or?

lolBot

nore projection from the Obots.

Allow me to dedicate a song to you:

The Fugs – Wide Wide River (aka River of Shit)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04bCoHXDj6c

enjoy.

Obama should tell Hillary to take a hike. The quicker he dumps her, the quicker her supporters will heal and get over it.

You won’t believe this, but I am the most patient person I know, but this primary season has stretched me to the limit.

One more example of Clinton’s tone deafness — the time to have negotiated was a month ago — and her ungracious, self absorbed speech last night makes it clear she is the last person Obama needs on the ticket.

Clinton ran a lousy campaign — not unlike her failed attempt to pass health care reform — and to blame Obama for the sexism of the media (which was grotesque but probably actually helped her in the primary)is insane. And of course the campaign was ultimately lost when she voted for Irag as a pander, as a politically safe move instead of having the courage to stand up when it would have made a difference.

She can probably damage, perhaps fatally the Democratic nominee in the general election — she may well do so — how exactly that benefits her most ardent followers is not clear. The loss of Roe; the loss of social security; failure to enact a medical reform bill — none of this will affect me and I can protect my family — but it will certainly affect most other women in this country more than any other group. So if she plays childish me first games, it is her own supporters and their children who will ultimately suffer the most.

She is off to a bad start; I hope she grows up and leads (I’d love to see her as majority leader of the Senate) — I voted for her in the primary but my respect for her has fallen dramatically in the last month.
Artemesia

I have to agree with you. I have so much joy in my heart today – not because Hillary lost. I celebrate that a great divide has been crossed at last. Perhaps we can say that it is one less thing we have to be sad about.

I would have liked it to but let’s just wait and not allow a percieved slight to rouse bad feelings.

Please don’t gang up on lukasiak. Even if you don’t like what he has to say, he’s completely admirable. I don’t like to see good people go because they go against the grain as a longtime reader and commmenter.

Huge numbers of Democratic voters didn’t tell us the same thing about Clinton?

no. she wasn’t ever the “presumptive nominee”. Millions of people said that Obama was acceptable and viewed more favorably, than Clinton…. but when you are told that your candidate has no shot, and you show up in record numbers to vote for that candidate anyway — well, you’re sending a message.

If Clinton was being declared inevitable in February, and had performed as poorly as Obama since that time, I’d be very concerned — I might not be supporting her opponent, but I sure as heck would be positioning myself as close to the exit signs as possible.

damn I hit the submit button too fast.

Hopefully there will be a post to talk about it becuase you are right, it is a historical event. We should be proud as a party and as Americans

boo

Gosh darn, now I am an Obot. Well, McCain would love to have your votes. Obama ran a better campaign. And Rush Limbaugh is very happy tonight. He has you and jane doing his work for him.

I have my doubts about Obama. But he ran a better campaign. And he won. Hillary did not. So what to do next? Senator Clinton has said on numberous times that he is not prepared to be president. Why would she hitch her political wagon to his star other than to be waiting for him to fail and pick up the pieces. Not a good standing for a VP in my mind.

But us Obots do not think. 62 years old and I have become an Obot. Oh, the misery. Now who is doing the name calling again?

We don’t need a post (though it would be nice)

Respectfully disagree.

Just look at the titles of the posts here for the last 24 hours and then tell me the number of them that would be more significant than “First African American Presidential Candidate of a Major Political Party”?

Sorry but he has not been kind at all. One can only turn the other cheek on so much name calling, insults and inflamatory comments. Sorry but if he wants to dish it out, he has to take it

Hillary loses me once again with this final gamesmanship not statesmanship.

Remember when classy Edwards said, “I will be fine. Don’t worry about me. I will be just fine.” Where is that reassurance from Hillary? She still has a damn good and powerful job in the senate. She has so many options. She could run for NY gov. She could go for SC. She could be another Teddy Kennedy.

Yeah, the disappointment must hurt. Look at so many who have lived through it in the dem camp.

But Hillary is suddenly reminding me of a bitter wife and mother who when divorcing sabotages the Dad’s hope of a sustained bond with the young’uns. Won’t release them. Kind of an emotional incest. If her supporters go to Obama they have emotionally betrayed her. Is that the supporters’ thinking and feeling on their own? Or with encouragement from their leaders. Kool-aid industrial strength.

And the other issue, is that she and her supporters are pitting themselves instead of just at the “males” and females who chose the male candidate in our party but THE YOUTH. Why would she play catalyst to disenfranchising the passionate new commitment of the Youth? To me that is on the other end of the dial from true FEMINIST principles.

It’s hard to be gracious toward an opponent who not only refuses to acknowledge she lost, but insinuates the winner is not legitimate by continually touting bogus, lying popular vote numbers.

When she concedes and drops out then we MIGHT be gracious if we can get over the rank betrayal.

see my post after that comment, I had hit the button too fast. It would be nice giving the historic occasion.

Response to lukasiak @24 – though at this point it’s probably irrelevant to call up the text –

Speaking as a white woman on the verge (well, maybe past it) of elderhood, and with a decade’s experience in dealing with officials of other countries, I am still brought up short by Senator Clinton’s falsehoods about her supposed roles in making peace in Northern Ireland & in the Balkans. Both of these prompted statements by knowledgeable officials of the nations in question correcting Senator Clinton.

It was appalling that Senator Clinton put foreign officials in the position of having to correct her publicly. At the time, they did not know whether they were correcting someone who would succeed G.W. Bush in the U.S. presidency and with whom their respective countries would have to deal. For each of them, going public must have been excruciating.

It’s also difficult for us. Senator Clinton freely chose thereby to establish herself internationally as someone who cannot be trusted to tell the truth — even about fairly recent matters as to which there is an extensive public record, and as to which others are fully informed.

Yes, Democrats absolutely must take back the White House this November. We must restore habeas corpus. We must have a Supreme Court that regards ordinary Americans with the same reverence as this one regards corporate interests.

We must restore this country’s disastrously damaged standing in the community of nations.

So we Americans cannot afford yet another President whom all the world knows cannot be trusted to speak the truth. That’s why the vice presidency is simply the wrong job for Senator Clinton.

Please don’t gang up on lukasiak. Even if you don’t like what he has to say, he’s completely admirable. I don’t like to see good people go because they go against the grain as a longtime reader and commmenter.

And now I’ll *disagree* with every word. Being a long-time commenter, even a front pager upon occasion, doesn’t confer the right to troll through damn near every thread, showcasing himself as an angry, mean and vindictive little man.

It gets worse.. from the AP:

“Rosemarie Brocato, who lives about a block away from the house, said she had told police, “He’s sick. Please don’t shoot him. He needs help.”

The man had moved into the family home about eight years ago, with no money and no job, his brother, Homer M. Minshew III, said Wednesday. He survived the hurricane, but the family was awaiting government aid so they could either pay the house off or fix it up and sell it.”

Oh, and FEMA apparently was searching everyone’s toxic trailers in order to convince them to leave.. they’re trying to get people to give them back and move out, so the search wasn’t about security, it was actually intended as tenant harassment. In other words, they shot him in the process of harassing him, and the reason he was there in the first place was because he couldn’t get Federal aid he was legitimately entitled to. Gods, I hate these people.

‘They saw her weather the arrows they themselves have suffered’

Obama needs to reach out to those women as a matter of prudence and principle.

can we call you grandma-obot

But Clinton doesn’t have 18 million supporters. There are 18 million people who voted for her, but these people are not a monolithic bloc, any more than those who voted for Obama are. Those 18 million are Democrats first and foremost, and I sincerley believe that most of them will vote for Obama in the general election, because it’s either that or vote for a Republican.

More importantly, I am suspicious of the quoted article. It reads, to me, like more of the lazy, mainstream “journalism” we have become unfortunately accostomed to and seems to, to me, to be more about finding angry white women than anything else.

You, of all people expected Kumbaya?
*grin*
I think many are happy. I think many who want to stay that way are off doing other things besides commenting here. I think those that are happy and are commenting here are, among other things, hanging out with their “friends in the computer”, trying to understand another’s POV or trying to figure out what to do next as individuals and as a community. I think I’m happy. I think that’s what I’m doing here.

Yes, you nailed it. There’s more here than just a primary race. Somehow it got very, very personal for a lot of people and there’s a lot to sort through emotionally.

And no, I’m not asking for an analysis of how it got that way. It just doesn’t matter to me at this point.

FunnyD

Wasn’t the presumptive nominee? That’s rich.

I thought we had that post.

It started

Woohoo! It’s finally over! Obama has gone over 2,118 delegates, and is now officially the “presumptive nominee.” I’m watching his uplifting victory speech to a huge, enthusiastic crowd as I’m writing this, and he has been very generous with his praise of Hillary, especially on healthcare.

They called the post the Final Primary Wrap Up because finally, the primary is wrapped up.

Ya wanna cake too?

disgraceful

Achem. Why don’t we just leave that. First of all we’re in a healthcare crisis. There’s nothing disproportiante about that. Standing strong on social security is crucial as well. We’re in a privatization crisis. I think Soc Sec will always be endangered by zealous Repugs plus Liebercrats. And as for the war, I refuse to comment because I refuse to engage in a pooflinging contest. So call my reasons for choosing one non-progressive candidate over the over ”disproportionate” is not very nice. At any rate, I followed a lot of what Clinton had to say about her war vote and Joseph Wilson as well. It’s useless to criticize Clinton supporters like me, when we should be uniting.

Good point: add to her rash and desperate comments on matters of foreign policy her “obliterate” comments.

wow. comment so not necessary.

What is wrong with having a post to celebrate a historical and momentous occasion? damn

sorry mods’ I know you are just following orders.

Jane, I would ask you to consider posting an alternative, more optimistic way of looking at this. First, it is unfortunate that in a contest between two contestants, essentially equally qualified on the issues, someone has to lose. I understand the emotions swirling around this very charged moment. However, I would assert that in this instance Hillary Clinton “lost” this primary campaign for some reasons that had nothing to do with her being a woman. Women who see Hillary as their champion chiefly because she is a woman should consider the following reasons in their thinking going forward.

First reason, her vote for the Iraq war. That was a question of judgment and put her on the wrong side of that issue. Once she had taken that position she could never seem able to change her mind (which, by the way, I have always heard is a woman’s prerogative).

Second reason, her approach to the primary. Hillary and her strategists ran her primary campaign as if it was going to be a “slam dunk” and be over in February. This demonstrated a tendency to exercise poor judgment. It is just not a good idea to underestimate your competition in ANY endeavor. She did the same thing in the ‘90s when she was championing health care for all. If she is still willing to take this short-sighted approach to a primary how would she approach foreign policy negotiations?

Third, she misjudged the American public. Hillary took the approach that she was the voice of experience in Washington. She took that approach even as the American people were voicing their repudiation of “Washington politics” in general and were starting to show their yearning for real change in Washington. This is an indication of being “out of touch” with the voters. That is never a good thing.

Finally, there is the not so minor mechanics of running a primary campaign. Hillary took the traditional approach to campaigning; that is, she sought to lock up all the traditional “moneybags” contributors and planned the primary to be over in February. Then she ran out of money when things did not go as planned and had to scramble. The Obama campaign on the other hand took advantage of what Howard Dean had showed was a promising approach to campaign financing in 2004 which was to use the Internet for fund raising. Senator Obama built upon that approach and worked with people in Silicon Valley to use the latest social networking technology to develop a powerful way to raise money and organize his campaign that does not depend on the traditional rich contributors (who then tend to have too much influence). This also speaks to Senator Clinton’s view of doing things traditionally instead of taking advantage of changes that result in more effective ways of doing things.

None of these reasons has anything to do with Senator Clinton’s progressive political views on the issues of the day or the fact that she is a woman. I believe Senator Clinton has performed extraordinarily well in spite of the above and has blown a huge hole in the glass ceiling that is American Presidential politics. It is only a matter of time before another woman who is not burdened by what I have described above enters the fray and successfully stands on the shoulders of Senator Clinton to achieve the Presidency. I say women should keep the faith. Right now I am afraid that Senator Clinton’s apparent unwillingness to concede defeat in a hard fought contest is going to tarnish her reputation with many Democrats and end up overshadowing an otherwise remarkable achievement.

Rush Limbaugh is very happy tonight. He has you and jane doing his work for him.

Who’s doing the name calling indeed. Can we stick to substance, please? Pretty please?

mui1:

Will you be satisfied if Obama picks someone who has credibly opposed the war from the beginning and since then? By the same token, wouldn’t it undermine his line of attack against McCain on the war (wrong “judgment”) to name Clinton?

All other issues aside, the present apparent paralysis of Hillary Clinton, and the confused state in which it leaves her supporters and the Democratic Party seems to answer the question of who will be best prepared to assume the Presidency on day one. Thank goodness this isn’t the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I think the dynamic of what happened was interesting.

Obots would show up and trash Clinton. Clinton supporters would trash the Obots, but weren’t trashing Obama that much — until very recently.

Clinton supporters were assuming that people would come to their senses — especially after the Wright episode…then the SECOND Wright episode. And we were right “the people” i.e. voters DID come to their senses… the problem is that the party leaders didn’t.

And the reason for the failure of the party leaders is simple — Obamacash. Clinton kept winning, and winning in key states by big margins, and in less key states by huge margins, and the superdelegate flow continued to Obama unabated — which means that these SDs weren’t paying attention to the party’s prospects for November, but to something else entirely — and that was what Obama could do for THEM personally.

The sheer illogic of party officials watching Obama suffer humiliating defeats in Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky (plus now Puerto Rico and South Dakota) and flocking to Obama anyway is too bizarre for words.

Hillary has been unwilling to reach across to Obama he has been rather gacious to her. He has shown far more ability for diplomacy than she. He does not need to jump across the net which she has raised. He need to let the Kennedys (that side of the party that is progressive) find the best VP. And that was a smart decision on his part. We here are looking for progressive agressive candidates. She leans heavily on corporate support and he on popular. This country is ready for some real change a new deal. Give Hillary the Health department head job if we can have a senate majority without her. The Blue dogs have way to much say in our outcome.

Well said.

I’m with eCAHNomics and lukasiak with regard to sitting out in November Although, since she won’t be on the ballot, maybe I’ll vote for Hillary.

It’s not just Hillary supporters that find Obama unacceptable and I disagree that it is our duty/obligation/responsibility to vote for a candidate we find unacceptable because the party of least repugnance anoints him.

We will never get better candidates until we refuse to fall in lock-step every presidential November. I made the decision to never do so again last time around.

I do have one question for Jane though … what was your motivation for posting that clip on youtube?

The Clintons get up against someone competent and it is a trainwreck for them.

She lost, but, really, a trainwreck? Clinton wasn’t up against someone merely competent. She ran up against probably the most brilliant political orator since her husband was in his prime and a campaign that has totally rewritten the way the game is played…and still, she came within a hair of winning it.

Its like we’re in a different universe. Hillary was the presumptive nominee up until she came in third in Iowa. Then Edwards in second place got screwed out of the game in a total media blackout. Hillary in last place of the big three was stunned coming out of Iowa, ever still the presumptive nominee.

Hillary stays through Denver because Obama is vulnerable. All you smart folks don’t want to recognise his weaknesses, which are legion, but the repuglies will be around to remind you. Maybe some of you will wake up in time to nominate and elect a real Democrat instead of the racist (whitey, no sorry, ”why’d he”) woman hating obama. If you don’t then a McInane presidency is a real possibility. As of right now, I probably won’t vote for obama, but I certainly won’t vote for a rupuglie. But I will wait for obama to convince me I should vote for him, something he hasn’t done to convince me to vote for him as the nominee. I’m not holding my breath, he comes across as an empty suit, full of big words but little character. But then you folks are so much smarter than me.

You speak for all of them? i don’t think so. I was just on another blog with many that do not have your same opinion.

Wishing you peace and light

Blogs for McCain is already lined up against Obama

Isn’t he the “presumptive nominee” until the convention? Full disclosure, I’m talking out of my ass here, but wouldn’t that be the proper time for the celebratory posts etc?

Since he is now the presumptive nominee, let’s focus an kickin some McCain!

That was snark, wasn’t it?

We have to develop thick skin.

Bingo.

Also, don’t bother to lay your hate on me, I won’t be back on this thread to read it.

Please stay above the fray, Jane.

I seriously doubt anyone cares what either you or I think in the situation. It’s that 11 point swing that everyone is going to be watching. Will it come down, or will it get bigger?

All the carefully constructed arguments about how people “should” feel will pale next to how they really do feel.

No, we’re not in a different universe. Point taken. She was the favorite in the early going, not quite the “presumptive nominee”.

She can probably damage, perhaps fatally the Democratic nominee in the general election — she may well do so — how exactly that benefits her most ardent followers is not clear.

It doesn’t. But since having her followers bolt might “fatally” damage Obama’s prospects, wouldn’t it make sense to do something to prevent that?

As was said by one poster here, the “plan” is to throw the election to McCain, let him deal with the ugly political mess of Iraq while trying to get anything past a hostile Democratic controlled Congress, have him epically fail, and then set up Clinton to take it all back in 2012.

So to avoid this plan being launched, Obama needs to find a way to deal Clinton in to his administration. Call it political blackmail if you will, but this isn’t patty-cake, it’s presidential politics. Obama knew the job was dangerous when he took it.

And no, telling her to “take a hike” and expecting her followers to “get over it” is not a strategy, except a strategy for failure.

Obama is simply going to have to bite the bullet and find a way to deal Clinton and her followers in. Telling them to piss off is not an option, unless losing the general election is his plan.

And we’ve watched with admiration as Clinton turned into something far better than we’d imagined, and Obama turned into something far worse than we’d feared. And as a result I think most of us are sitting out november as of right now — McCain will be a short term disaster that will permit a democratic recovery in 2012, Obama will be better than McCain in the short term, but will be a long term disaster for the party (we’ll lose Congress in 2010, and the white house in 2012, and it will be at least a decade before the party recovers from the Obama debacle.

Where do you get your crystal ball? I guess you consider yourself a “good” Democrat although your attitude strikes me as resembling the parent who claims this hurts me more than it hurts you. It never does, you know.

Senator Clinton was the beneficiary of Rush Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos. There is no way of knowing how many of her popular votes were Repugs screwing things up. She obviously will say or do anything to further her ambitions. She doesn’t care about me and I think, if you can be a bit objective, she doesn’t care about you either. Obama may be an unknown quantity, but McCain is a known quantity. That you can do anything that hands him the white house doesn’t say much for your smarts.

Sorry but that Larry Johnson stuff is too sketchy even for Malkin.

John McCain as President will be a primary agent for the irreversible ruination of the U.S. Everyone needs to remember that amid all this circular firing squad bullshit.

Okay, I’ll try to practice what I preach, but it really irritated me beyond belief when someone on a thread said that Clinton supporters would start ”shrieking” at some piece of bad news about the DNC ruling. Like Shrieking? Like Harpies? Is that what we are?
So yeah I guess it’s hard not to feel irritated from time to time.

It was half-snark.

And it was a hard night for people really wanting Clinton to win, kinda seems like pouring salt… …I dunno, I kinda thought it was handled OK.

Gee Jayt I thought I was the only one who noticed his comments of anger and vitriol on many of the threads here at the Lake!

bobo is talking about McCain vs .Obama

Yet, we know that there are meny angry Hillary supporters. Don’t you want an insight into what they are thinking/feeling?

Don’t you want to understand so that we can find a way to reach them and bring them back into full support of the nominee?

Dismissing them, pretending they are not there, only califies the problem of angry frustrated Hillary supporters.

I, for one, want to understand the grevances as fully as possible so as to be able to try to figure out how to adress those greviences and solve the problems between the two camps.

It’s not just Obama, a divided party won’t have the down ticket sucesses we need to ge our SCOTUS nominees confirmed.

We need to understand the problem before we can fix it. We canonly find out what agreives Hillary supporters, if we LISTEN TO WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO TELL US.

Dialogue is our friend

Life under Shrub has apparently been good for Hillary supporters who refuse to vote for their Democratic Nominee. It will be even better for them if McCain is able to continue the Shrub Doctrine.

Man, if I could type I woulda said that!

Well done.

Please do. I really had no idea that I did not think for myself. Who knew. But now that I do I wear it with pride.

And in case someone asks, I hate kool-aid. And I am the most realistic feminist who struggled in a man’s world for all my working life to raise my children without a father. I lived on $24,000 a year. I know something about fighting for one’s right and beliefs. And I did not choose Senator Clinton, nor do I want her as VP. This nation needs to heal. We cannot heal with someone who thinks Murdoch is a well meaning man, McCain would make a great Commander in Chief, and that bombing Iran is a super idea. Who thought the Iraq war was a good idea. And the idea of Bill Clinton being the backup vice president just sends shivers. And I defended for all 8 years. And was proud of him. But lately…

Ay forkin’ MAY-un, sistah.

Mui,
Being a front pager or longtime commenter or personal friend of the blog owner does not entitle one to piss all over the whole community by saying whatever one wants however one wants whenever one wants to as often as one wants to.

Bullying someone with a different opinion?!!! PUH-leeeeeeeze.

FunnyD

Troll. Scroll.

I have no idea who I’m responding to since FDL is, ummm, kinda ugly at the moment. Hoping for Prairie, though, with whom I agree.

I’m not sure how we have come to this strange place where it is deemed incumbent (so to speak) for Obama supporters to bear the burden of healing the shiv-thrusts of the past many months.

As a converted-to-Obama supporter (once Edwards was forced out of the race by a conspiracy of silence in the press and among most of the other candidates), I know what it feels like to have your preferred candidate lose. Remember Al Gore? John Kerry? (Okay, Kerry was my candidate by default, but still . . .)

I am absolutely willing, yea, verily, desirous of meeting Hillary supporters half way. In the DMZ of apathetic Americans, if need be. But this shaming and blaming thing has to stop. It does. Because what’s happening here is that Hillary’s supporters are positioning her as an abused woman.

She (and her followers) almost certainly did not like some of the things that were said about her. But when she made a decision to campaign in the good-old-boy mode, she herself took a giant step away from ”feminism,” not necessarily to be confused with ”femininity.”

I believe Hillary Clinton is the victim of her handlers. I do. Ham-fisted pols who do not understand nuance and don’t much understand delicate relationships. As I may have said earlier elsewhere, the sins of the handlers are visited upon their candidates.

In my heart, I don’t believe Hillary is a wicked waffler. What I do believe is that she listened to the wrong people. Can you fire your husband, I wonder?

Ah, enough. I will happily meet you in the middle ground. I don’t expect you to come to me, nor do I expect to come to you.

What’s is wrong with acknowledging that he has become the presumptive nominee? Surely the significance hasn’t escaped you. I mean 45 years aog in August will be the anniversary of MLK’s, I Have A Dream Speech. Even though we still have our issues in this country, we have progressed a ways and that is to be celebrated.

I’d be irritated too. Just have to call people on that shit.

Wrong Wrong Wrong… it is a huge price to pay. Until neocons are sent packing (Blue America) to where they conived this awful war and domestic policy. Hillary has bargained with the devil on the war issue. She needs to make the concession speech now, if she is blackmailing the new Dem candidate she is no better than liarman.
The World needs and deserves a fresh start, many international issues depend on us and they have been dissapointed by conservative policies. Her behavior indicates that she is a divider, we do not need that in the white house where the podium is so powerful. We need collabotaive partnerships engaging in the work that has to be done to save the planet, the species and the economy.

yes.. as Dems, I too believe that we must now firmly support Obama. I just wish the Hillary-hater crowd would quite being so shrill and would stop impugning our motives for supporting her in the first place.. and cut out their attacks. I can’t even begin to describe how many pieces of borderline hatemail I’ve gotten in the last month from Hillary-haters. It’s over now. It’s about Obama now.. can we just accept that and move on?

When she was the presumptive nominee, no one inthe press, or as far as I can recall her campaign, pressured Dodd, Edwards, Obama etc to just drop out in the name of party unity.

No one said they were “dividing the party” jsut b/c they had the temrity to want the voters deicde the primary races.

yup, johnmccain.com lined up against obama.

Exsqueeze me. How many senators voted against the war? And who would be the perfect VP candidate? I dont think there are too many out there with a clean shirt.
Plus we are talking of healting a split among voters, right? Keep in mind I think Clinton as VP with her 18 million supporters would go along way.
Political expediency doesn’t always look pretty, but when the opponent is Monster Repug McCain, I’d bend over backwards and try to do side flips to win.

Did I call anyone names? Is it not a fact that Limbaugh might be very happy with the discord right now in the party? And refusing to concede was just the last straw for me.

I have never called anyone names. Although it appears I am now an Obot. I assume that is for Obama robot. Who knew that is what I am… I don’t feel the strings. And yes I am upset that as a woman I am not given credit for knowing my own mind. I chose between two well qualified candidates. I picked one. It was not the one others here wanted me to pick.

(((LS)))

i’m tired. how are you?

And this August he will become the Democratic nominee. That will be historic, I expect a lengthy post here discussing that.

This is silly, there would have been nothing wrong with a post stating that last night. The lack of one, however, shouldn’t be taken as a slight, which is kinda how I read the initial comment on the matter.

I did mention I was talking out of my ass, right? After all that, you are probably correct, my comment was unnecessary.

I like the token black guy in the pic. gives mcCain that man-of-everybody appeal

First page of google news for john mccain is all cain vs. obama.

But Clinton doesn’t have 18 million supporters. There are 18 million people who voted for her, but these people are not a monolithic bloc, any more than those who voted for Obama are. Those 18 million are Democrats first and foremost, and I sincerley believe that most of them will vote for Obama in the general election, because it’s either that or vote for a Republican.

that is a good point — saying 18 million clinton supporters in referece to those who won’t vote for Obama is wrong, because what happened in the early stages of the campaign can’t be compared to what happened in the later stages.

Conversely, while I think that Clinton would still retain most of the vote she got in the early primaries, I don’t think the same can be said for Obama. That was before Wright, before “bitter/cling” — before a whole host of negative information came to the public awareness about Obama.

(that’s one of the reasons I looked at before and after february polls — in the vast majority of categories, Obama did worse — at times far worse, in the elections held since March 1 than the elections held in February.)

I was listening to the TV yesterday or the day before, and while 12% more people answered “Democratic” when asked which party they preferred won the white house this year, when they asked Obama or McCain, Obama came with only a 3 point advantage.

And Obama’s “negatives” have risen substantially since February (Clintons are basically the same..a little improvement, but not much).

So I think you’re right — we shouldn’t be talking about the entire pool of Clinton voters as if they were at risk — we don’t know if they are or not. Nor should we be assuming that all of Obama’s voters will now vote for him knowing what they found out in the last couple of months…

OK, who broke the Lake?

Isaiah Poole Upstairs

If you go back far enough, I said it shouldn’t be perceived as a slight.

but when we are talking about uniting a party and recognizing and acknowledging others’ feelings, telling someone that something is ’silly’ ain’t a good way to start.

Oh yeah and out that ass on a leash *g*

that’s just the splash damage from the pie fights, lol :)

I agree that appointing Caroline Kennedy to the VP search committee is an act of pure strategic genius.

Hillary’s bellicose demand to be named VP on Obama’s ticket suggests two things: she’s not confidant her considerable support will stay with her over the coming weeks (wrong, I think), and she prefers the tactics of the machine politician (one reason many of us preferred Obama or Edwards).

More importantly, it makes clear that Hillary is putting her ambition above the needs of her Party and its success in November. Another reason many of us decided that despite her talent, charisma and commitment, she was not the one to lead us out of the swamp of executive power in which Bush hides like a rabbit behind the Cheney fox.

Style and method do matter. They are also hard indicators of priorities. Hillary is engaging in public diplomacy. She is bargaining with Obama by exchanging public demands, as if she were a teen negotiating between warring parents, or as if she were the US and he were China or Russia. Instead of using private talks to get what she wants, she is trying to take by force what she could not win at the ballot box.

Hillary thereby creates the classic, ”Do you still beat your wife” dilemma. If Obama concedes, he proves himself too weak for the office. We would have co-executives warring over pragmatic control over power, a mutation of the disastrously dysfunctional Cheney vice presidency. If Obama rejects her demands, he threatens continuing division whether or not he wins the White House, debilitating his presidency before it begins.

Thanks, Hillary. May you get what you deserve.

New Post Above, Yes, up there!

The discussion was about the candidate. Your sliooery sophism is a bait and switch. To restart that discussion is unwise if you are interested in unity.

You want to see something really scary? Second Life McCain

Hiya Wobbly…I’m tired too..lurking mostly…until I can’t stand it and have to jump in. *g*

“Hillary’s bellicose demand to be named VP”
_______

Linky? I missed that one.

Okay, I’ll jump into this chilly pool the Lake has become…I agree with much of what you said. I would add that all of this is uncharted territory for us (not just Dems and Progressives, but the country).

As the race for the Dem nomination has unfolded we don’t really have the vocabulary as a society, as a country, to talk about a man of African descent and a woman, a former first lady, no less, running for the Presidency. Even the two of them aren’t really sure how to do it.

I don’t have any answers, but I do have faith that this conversation we’re having, heated and abusive at times, is ultimately good for the country. I plan to stay engaged, regardless, and get more and better Democrats elected.

LOL! Makes me glad i’m on a low-end rig :)

save up your energy, we’re gonna need it.

Exactly. Hack is always ready with sound advise. Thanks.

I’ll take that as a “no”.

How many senators voted against the war?

Twenty one Democrats.

Those who “credibly opposed” the war aren’t restricted to those who voted against it. I’m thinking, for example, of someone who would, I assume, be a very unpopular choice among Clinton supporters — Jim Webb, who’s from a big state in play, and has acted more than anyone in the Senate for veterans, to wind down the Iraq war, and to blunt efforts to whip up a war against Iran. My ideal choice would be someone who reinforces Obama’s position against the war.

Thank you. Well said, all of it.

jayt, I am having trouble with the scrolling, so I only got the jist of your comment. ”Mean” etc. is a judgment call. Okay the word ”Obamabot” should be out. Neutrality should be in as much as humanly possible. That would be cool. I think I defer to LHP @142. In some ways I am an angry Clinton supporter too. But I think we Dems have common ground to go on. And yes, I would bend over backward myself for unity. At least I think I would.

Why is it bellicose for her to position for that slot? Tactically, it makes perfect sense. Practically, perhaps less so. Both of the two candidates will have to weigh the pro’s and con’s, but its a perfectly legitimate request and an even more legitimate debate that the party and the Obama campaign should be having now.. and I trust that they are having it.

Yep, yep yep.

The next POTUS must be a dem. Cause that POTUS gets to pick the new SCOTUS nominees

Effin Liar

During his press conference today in Baton Rouge, John McCain declared in strong terms that he’s voted for every investigation of Hurricane Katrina.

The only problem, as the DNC has been pointing out to reporters, is he voted twice against Democratic proposals to investigate the levee failures.

After a local reporter at his Baton Rouge press conference asked why he voted against forming a commission to investigate the levee failures in New Orleans, McCain insisted that he supported every investigation — and added that he was “not familiar” with what the reporter was talking about

from same link:

McCain voted against establishing a commission to investigate the levee failures, in a September 2005 party-line vote in which all Republicans voted against the Democratic proposal. He then repeated that party-line GOP vote against a similar Dem proposal in February 2006.

The Clintons did not come within a “hair” of winning the nomination. If there were no superdelegates ( a vestige of the Vietnam reactionary dominated Democratic Party) and all delegates were awarded based on voting, the nomination would have won by Obama long ago.

Failure to organize in the caucus states=trainwreck. Ferarro=trainwreck. Phony sniper bullets and a palpably boring campaign=trainwreck. I know it will be spun how wonderful the Clintons campaign was, opening doors, crashing ceilings but it really was a mess with overpaid incompetent consultants and no effective strategy or planning. It was a campaign we might wish never was.

Since I am only (Canadian) a distant cousin, I’ll offer two points and then go back to lurking …

1. Both of these candidates on the same ticket will provide too many negatives for the Repugs as cannon fodder. On that point, President Carter & I agree.

2. I disagree that Hillary, Richardson, Biden, Edwards, etc. can only be effective in this campaign unless she/he is on the ticket … if that is true, the Dems have already lost the GE.

Ha now I can accuse you of being ”disproportiante.” It’s not all about the war, don’t forget there’s the economy, silly (I am playing with you, so don’t get mad) But seriously, healthcare and all the other things Clinton is strong on should be brought to the table. It really would make a more balanced ticket I think. And don’t forget the ca 18 million supporters she has.

That was before Wright, before “bitter/cling” — before a whole host of negative information came to the public awareness about Obama.

This is one of the really disheartening things about people who offer Obama’s lack of “electability” (same argument another war voter, Kerry, offered about another anti-war candidate and reformer, Dean) as an argument. They don’t like the sexism that Clinton has suffered, but they don’t make an effort to put themselves in Obama’s shoes, or the shoes of other black Democrats. Obama reveals a forgiveable prejudice (shared by many whites) about the demographic who rejected him in OH, PA and Appalachia and we’re asked to hold it against him, despite the fact that he has to face overt and unyielding rejection from them solely for the color of his skin. That really adds insult to injury.

And in the thick of a depression, come November, I don’t think that many people are going to hold “Bittergate” against Obama. Come on.

AUMF=trainwreck

I’m out here on the west coast listening to a local radio show — and, sadly, some Hillary voters are calling in saying they would switch to McCain because ’he has more experience’, ’Obama is too young and inexperienced’ -
it’s like they just don’t get it. SCOTUS and ending the invasion of Iraq. Get a grip!

On this point alone, it is imperative that all the Dems unite …

I would venture that some of those callers are from the Limbaugh Army …

People, unfortunately, vote against their own self-interest all the time.

That, I don’t get.

Time will abates much of this.

I have no problem with understanding how they feel, what they want, etc.

All in due time.

Right now, today, should be Sen. Obama’s moment.

I’ve read glowing tributes here to Donna Edwards, Darcy Burner, Ned Lamont, etc., but no front page love for this historic occasion.

And we’re progressive.

But if the outcome was reversed, somehow I think confetti would be all over my keyboard from visiting here.

I’m not sure how we have come to this strange place where it is deemed incumbent (so to speak) for Obama supporters to bear the burden of healing the shiv-thrusts of the past many months.

Cause that’s what politicians do if they want to win. Can we be a little practical? If she has lost, she doesn’;t need his suporters, but he needs hers.

For whom [all] exactly did I represent that I was speaking, Wobblybits?

I don’t think you can look at the polls taken during the primary for guidance to what will happen in the general. The dynamics of the two races are completely different. Specifically, primaries allow for finer granularity of choice than general elections, i.e., I like Edwards position on poverty more than any other, but in the general my choices are reudced to two, and my preference for Edwards is subsumed into the more general question of Obama or McCain.

That said, I think we will have to wait for things to calm down some before we get an idea of how Obama is stacking up against McCain. Looking at things right now is a bit like looking at your relationship after a big fight with your SO, to use perhaps a too touchy feely example.

Additionally, I believe Obama’s negatives rose (if tehey really did–it depends on which poll I’m looking at) primarily because of attacks from Clinton’s campaign and because of rancor in the Cemocratic party. I also expect those numbers to go down as well.

For me it is all about the war.

But I take your point, and here I think you’re overstating differences between Obama and Clinton. If I’m wrong, however, and Clinton really is truly progressive about health care, I’d like to see her get a prominent say in that part of the platform. It would be a nice way for Obama to get “cover” for a more progressive position than he’s espoused. But I’m skeptical about her progressivism.

As far as a balanced ticket, it’s naive to think he can let her on it, especially since he’s openly rejected the idea in the past (”you can’t get two for one” comments). It’s probably naive to think she even wants the VP slot (the point of this post, really).

Er I think Obama is much in the in-crowd as Clinton is, if not more so these days. As far as I am concerned they are equals in the ”moderate” democrat sphere.

I was on a another site (pro-hillary) and the tone was very different. yes, they were sad and disappointed but they were ready to move behind the nominee and kick some McSybil ass. I think most will join but we can’t lag back with the ones that choose a different path of bitterness or anger.

What LHP said. I agree.

I think what they might mean is that he doesn’t have enough experience being a woman.

you said clinton supporters…tends to refer to all unless you insert: some, many, a few, etc.

First and foremost, I am an American….period

I am a mid 40s, southern, urban, married, upper income female.

I care more about resurrecting my country’s reputation and honor than I care about ANY political party or politician, regional affiliation or feminist agenda. I care very much about getting some kind of decent energy policy so my nephew will have some kind of positive economic and environmental future in which to live.

I believe down to the bottom of my soul that the aim of modern Republican ideology is to diminish the rights of all Americans and especially those out of power or those who have no power. I believe that they use political power to transfer wealth from the middle and lower classes to themselves and their corporate friends. The Hell with the rest of us.

If you think that it is more important to elect Hillary than it is to elect a Democrat, any Democrat, then sit this one out or vote for John McCain. But please don’t bitch when you learn that your now on a No Fly list because some beaurocrat somewhere made a mistake but you have no recourse. Please don’t bitch when McCain bombs Iran just to make a point and we find ourselves on our economic knees because oil is now $400.00 a barrel. Please don’t bitch when the Chinese decide that they no longer want to keep buying our worthless dollars and interest rates go through the roof. Don’t even go there.

I care more about this country than I do my own life. Republicans have run my country into the ground, all just to enrich themselves and to fulfill some John Wayne fantasy.

I have no patience with willfully, stupidly selfish people.

One can hope. But like I said before, it was Gore’s to lose. It was Kerry’s to lose. I’d hate to see the party drown in its own bad juice. It’s even more important this tiime. What’s been most remarkable for me in this campaign is how Bubba-Bill has lost whatever good will he had. What a mess this came to after such an encouraging start with such interesting candidates. I hope it simmers down really soon.

we have progressed a ways and that is to be celebrated

Exactly.

Right here. At FDL.

Not naivitee. I ain’t no little girl. Stranger things have happened.

If she had conceded last night, instead of the cable news guys breaking into McCan’s speech to talk baout Obama, they would have been breaking into Obama’s speech totalk about Hillary conceding. She would have stolen his thunder.

Whether she concedes today or a week form today won’t hurt Obama. But if she had coneded last night, Obama could not have hurt McCain as much as he did.

Bigger picture. Winning in November.

137.

I, for one, want to understand the grevances as fully as possible so as to be able to try to figure out how to adress those greviences and solve the problems between the two camps.

The one thing that Obama could do to heal the wounds is, unfortunately, the one thing he can’t do.

Admit that they both lost, that the nomination will be settled in August, and that the superdelegates need to use their best judgement to decide who the nominee will be.

The problem, of course, is that Obama knows that if the SDs use their best judgement, he’ll lose. If he didn’t think that, he wouldn’t be trying so hard to present himself as “inevitable”.

Obama’s biggest problem is that he is the weaker candidate — and the weaker choice for President.

Hey Pups here we are at over 200 comments and only three Diggs WTF! Come on and Support the Lake!!!! Give a little Digg for Jane!! Honest It Wont Hurt!!! :>)

peace, love and light

Yep.

I used to live in a country called America. It was not a perfect country, God knows, especially if you were African American or Native American or of Japanese descent in World War II, or poor or gay or a woman or an immigrant, but it was a country I loved and honored. This country gave me hope that it could be better. It paid its workers wages that were envied around the world. It made sure these workers, thanks to labor unions and champions of the working class in the Democratic Party and the press, had health benefits and pensions. It offered good public education. It honored basic democratic values and held in regard the rule of law, including international law and respect for human rights. It had social programs from Head Start to welfare to Social Security to take care of the weakest among us, the mentally ill, the elderly and the destitute. It had a system of government that, however flawed, was dedicated to protecting the interests of its citizens. It offered the possibility of democratic change. It had a media that was diverse and endowed with the integrity to give a voice to all segments of society, including those beyond our borders, to impart to us unpleasant truths, to challenge the powerful, to explain ourselves to ourselves.

I am not blind to the imperfections of this America, or the failures to always meet these ideals at home and abroad. I spent 20 years of my life in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and the Balkans as a foreign correspondent reporting in countries where crimes and injustices were committed in our name, whether during the Contra war in Nicaragua or the brutalization of the Palestinians by Israeli occupation forces. But there was much that was good and decent and honorable in our country. And there was hope.

The country I live in today uses the same words to describe itself, the same patriotic symbols and iconography, the same national myths, but only the shell remains. America, the country of my birth, the country that formed and shaped me, the country of my father, my father’s father and his father’s father, stretching back to the generations of my family that were here for the country’s founding, is so diminished as to be nearly unrecognizable. I do not know if this America will return, even as I pray and work and strive for its return. The “consent of the governed” has become an empty phrase. Our textbooks on political science are obsolete. Our state, our nation, has been hijacked by oligarchs, corporations and a narrow, selfish political elite, a small and privileged group which governs on behalf of moneyed interests. We are undergoing, as John Ralston Saul wrote, “a coup d’etat in slow motion.” We are being impoverished — legally, economically, spiritually and politically. And unless we soon reverse this tide, unless we wrest the state away from corporate hands, we will be sucked into the dark and turbulent world of globalization where there are only masters and serfs, where the American dream will be no more than that — a dream, where those who work hard for a living can no longer earn a decent wage to sustain themselves or their families, whether in sweatshops in China or the decaying rust belt of Ohio, where democratic dissent is condemned as treason and ruthlessly silenced…

Read the entire speech. MCBu’ush will complete the ruination of this country.

Awesome! I totally agree with you and will stand with you in our march to restore America for Americans.

I think the D and the R are becoming less indicative of what a politician truly stands for. I was just telling a friend that I had never paid attention to votes before now, but I’m sure paying attention now!

I think she’s perceived as being better on a lot of things, including gay rights. You can’t run on antiwar alone. The platform has to be wide. People in CT perceived that Ned Lamont was purely antiwar, andidn’t want to vote for him based on that. It was grueling to try and explain to people that Lamont had a much wider platform.

”Letting great be the enemy of good” is the popular phrase … ”all or nothing” used to be the common one a while back …

I think your a little behind the news cycle.

Lovely BobbyG. Yes

Will be with you dosido

BobbyG, were you the one who brought this link over to the Lake before? I read it earlier and it’s been on my mind ever since because it says exactly what I’ve been feeling for a couple of years now. thanks, dude.

The lack of one, however, shouldn’t be taken as a slight, which is kinda how I read the initial comment on the matter.

Your initial read is correct.

I do take it as a slight.

And, since we see this differently, sometimes you have to agree to disagree.

Agreed … they need to go on Oprah and heal their self- inflicted wounds first …

They lost and are sore. You are talking about is issues. They are talking about hurt feelings. The committee that seated the delegates had a majority of Clinton supporters. Party voters will vote for their parties candidate.
Jane asks the question at the beginning …What does she want? I think her motivations are somewhat unspoken and she has a hidden agenda.
McCauliffe made a statement from her election team after the Rules committee decision… as if all was fine I call Bullshit on the Clinton election camp. They ran a dirty campaign since San Antonio and are continuing.It is hurting the Dem brand. She is hoping for an Obama disaster.
This is so unpatriotic.

Yes.

Not possible to underestimate the dangerous sociopolitical precipice we face. We wanna live under a panoptic oligarchy? McBu’ush will take us there.

What so people can see us squabbling? /snark

((( Mods ))) … let’s show some love for the people behind the curtain, who’re making a heroic effort to fix things …

I mean “overestimate”. Duh. I think.

Dumbass me.

Linky? I missed that one.

Obama supporters don’t need links. They transcend links. And facts. And logic.

See, here is what actually happened. Someone asked Hillary if she was open to being VP. She answered with her standard boilerplate about “doing everything I can to assure that the Democratic nominee wins in November.”

(and i do have a link for that, if you insist)

And then she didn’t concede last night. Obviously, there is only one explanation — she’s BELLICOUSLY DEMANDING the VP slot.

There is no evidence that she wants to be VP, let alone is demanding it. I’ve no doubt so Clinton staffers, desperate to keep a job for the next few months, are happy to float anonymous ‘leaks’ about it — but there is no real evidence.

Why would she want to be VP?

And if she wanted to be VP, she could have gotten it after Tezas and Ohio.

But Obama supporters have projected their own venality onto Clinton, and that makes it impossible for them to see what is obvious to anyone else. Everything has to be a nefarious plot (including the “plot” to make Obama lose so she can run in 2012!!!)

Wobblybits,

(Reply not working for me at the moment) What I said was “it’s not just Hillary supporters” as in merely, as in there are people other than Clinton supporters who do not/will not support Obama in November – period. That’s a statement that doesn’t necessitate the assumption of my speaking for all Hillarites regardless of your interpretation.

lilysmom@205:
I agree. I’m looking at the horror that McCain would bring finishing the job for bushco & nothing else.

You know what? I’m a white woman of a certain age. I understand and have lived and fought the slings and arrows of sexism.

But what I will not do is pander or give in to irrational hysteria over a politician who ran a horrible campaign by almost every measure and refuses to admit defeat. A goodly portion of her supporters have become as bratty children, stomping their feet and demanding it’s their way or the highway.

You know what? The highway is right down the street. Hike to it.

”If Obama concedes, he proves himself too weak for the office”

Rather than ”weak” I thik it shows him to be pragmatic and that he understands that winning requires reaching out.

From EW’s site courtesy of commenter PJ Evans:

This news in:

Jury finds political fundraiser Tony Rezko guilty on 16 of 24 counts in Ill. corruption trial

PatFitz gets his man – again.

That was my interpretation and I thank you for the clarification

that reply was meant for Blue

Hi there mui. I always enjoy reading your comments here at the lake. you’ve been here a while and you always add some good stuff here.

I’d just like to qualify my remarks re Clinton and let you know that any badness expressed by me is generally directed at Hillary, not her supporters (with the exception of one prominent commenter here intent on bending everyone’s perspective beyond belief). So, iow, if I have said anything in the past that offended you, I apologize and tell you it is not my intent to slur or slander any Hillary supporters.

Right now I am trying to adjust my brain to read posts and comments with a bright line separating info about Hilary and info etc about her supporters, her many diverse supporters.

I just really want to get these thugs out of our White House. Peace.

Paul, Obama got to the majic number BECAUSE of super delegates crossing over to him. They did use their judgement, and chose him.

LOL.

Well, Even A Broken Clock Is Right Twice A Day.

“They” Clinton supporters? Like me? “are lost and sore”? I think I am more worried about how to get 18million Clinton voters reconciled to voting for Obama, so we win the general election. Please don’t generalize Clinton supporters. It sounds a lot like ye old poop-throwing.

I guess they forgot how to spell ’Dukakis’. Or maybe the money talked.

Best thing is we now get to see just what Obama is made of.

And no, what Hillary does or does not do has nothing to do with that.

He’s on his own, just like he’s worked so hard to be.

So…..

Let’s see what ya got, Barkey.

I don’t want any more Iraqis to be killed, maimed, displaced

i don’t want any more troops killes, maimed

i don’t want any more americans to lose their homes, their jobs

i don’t want blood on my hands because I could have done something and didn’t.

It’s why I’m voting dem…what says you?

bureaucrat ….
sigh

Here’s a thought, why can’t we focus on all teh republicans who can’t support McCain? What are they going to do?

Let’s not forget there are many many Americans which include republicans (really!) who are aghast at the job Bush has done and /or they really do not like weeblywobbly McCain. It would be interesting to see those polls numbers, if any exist yet. Or has the gop gone so far down the toilet that the neocons are going to fool them again?

Crap I don’t think I was responding to your comment. and accusing you of anything. I am having technical difficulties.

Yo, was that a slight to broken clocks ? *g*

No really. I am apologizing for the word “shriek”
(cough) that was me.

and it really was directed at the Hilary camp, not her supporters. I hate the victim stance and that’s why I said it. Many apologies again.

Just, uh, what is the “magic number” at this point? Obama’s now at 2,165. Are the goalposts still in transit?

Wow! Good on you, and I’m pleased to meet you.

LOL!

((((( Loo Hoo )))))

Have you stopped smiling all day ? *g*

Although one thing you should keep in mind is that many of us supported Hillary over various issues like healthcare. So by extension its criticizing supporters like myself when people call her “evil, her campaign, “worthless”, etc.

OK. I don’t think I’ve gone that far. :]
Peace?

(don’t leave me hangin’!)

People keep asking what Hillary wants. What if she doesn’t want anything. That if she is not the nominee she is happy in the Senate. I know that she wants Obama to campaign to and for her supporters. Her supporters may be asking for something she doesn’t want.

Peace. I have seen you use evil.

Tweety just showed the republican ad using Hillary.

It’s a wonderful day, Petro. But, dang it, WHERE ARE THE YOUTUBES?

mui1
I agree with what you have said here. I quess no one wonders what happened to the old timers. I said long ago that Barack(who I think is great) will need her supporters . $$ and boots on the ground. It has been the spitefull comments on this blog(not from Obama himself) that have turned me off.

Well, CNN making much of Clinton supporters knee-jerk calling and jumping to McCain, according to a Minn Republican party person.

Heckuva job, Hillary.

Umm, well she says she would accept the VP that’s what I saw and read. I think she spoke of furthering the health care agenda, in the speech that I guess some people thought was self-serving. I think VP would work, I really do. And as a matter of political expedience, the Obama camp should not disdain the idea. Too many supporters out there, to further enrage if he makes a impolitic statement in regard to Clinton. There’s a lot to worry about in terms of winning the general election. As LHP says above: ”Big Picture.”

I cannot see why she would even want VP. Give up the power and perks of the Senate for Veep?

I would support her for Majority Leader. (And, spare me all the ‘line of succession’ BS. e.g., Schumer, Durbin, Dodd…). My senator Harry Reid is a complete waste. Hillary’s political knife-fighting and policy wonk chops would serve her well as an effective Majority Leader.

Yes and you trust MSM? What I saw in the Harriet Christians was certain amount of venting, New York Style.

Really??? “evil”? wow, I’m shocked that I don’t remember that. I stand chastened and now we move forward vowing not to shoot off one’s mouth so carelessly.

Scrolling thru trying to catch up, let me be clear about my own position, with a nod to mui’s comment. My brief against Clinton incorporates my belief that she has misused her supporters’ legitimate issues and even grievances for her own benefit.

Again, I ask, where is the good faith of Clinton and McAuliffe and Bob Johnson et al.

Not doubting your word at all but I have only heard what other people have said about the VP job. Maybe she does want it and that’s fine but she has to make her own choice. She must feel tugged in many directions right now. I wish her the best in whatever she does. She is one of the smartest people I have ever seen – except in her choice of people to run her campaign. They did her a disservice.

Hmm, are we old-school FDlers? Sorta like old-school hip hop? Conversation used to be pretty civil, even when heated.

She said she would take it. As LHP said ”big picture”. Political expediency. We need to team up to take the WH from the neocons.

My biggest beef with Clinton is my beef with the power elite in Washington DC. I view her as old guard. Some people will jump party to vote old guard. Dems and GOP like to have their hands on the levers of power and perks. I have always seen the Clintons as being about the Clintons and straddling the line that divides the two parties. NAFTA, anyone?

O/T -

Forty years ago today, my first child was born.

Later, that night, Robert F. Kennedy was murdered.

What a day that was. Indelible in my mind.

Why I have never seen you use strong words like evil? Evil is a word I would reserve for Dick Cheney though, don’t you think.

If you focus only on her “good” points [as you have done], that’s true. However, she’s got a bunch of “bad” points that pose danger to both Obama and the Democratic Party:

** it’s always, always, all about her;
** she has no reluctance to stick a knife in fellow Democrats [see “McCain & I have experience,” and “I support Joe Lieberman”];
** she plays to and encourages destructive passions [anger, resentment, blaming] rather than constructive ones;
** truth [Bosnia; “I’ve got more votes”] and personal responsibility are not her friends.

I am an over-60 feminist who’s fought many a war [e.g.,only woman in a law firm for many years], but I disapprove of Hillary’s tactics and her “values.” My disapproval would be the same if such were coming from a male, and it’s not “feminist” to squelch this disapproval because the bad qualities come from a woman.

Like Martin Luther King, I prefer to look at the “content of one’s character” not one’s gender.

And I dropped acid for the first time at Ft Lewis Washington. Heard the news on a transistor radio. Not the best setting for a trip.

OK, I hate this “back in the old days” talk about FDL. It was a great place, it still is. It’s very heated right now because it’s an election year folks! I predicted a few months ago that we were going to go through a whole lot of nasty until November.

All of us have a whole lot of pent up passion and anger about having our country flushed down the toilet. There’s a lot of anger about being manipulated with propaganda. from anybody.

So cut the firepups a little slack please.

realize though that Obama is part of the in-crowd. With eyes wide open, that’s all I am saying. Leiberman was his mentor. That’s not to criticize, it’s just to say there’s not alot of differnece, as many progressives observed between the two candidates, and we have to be prepared to fight after the GE as well, when we take back the WH.

The denizens of the ’Lake’ have been encouraged, for some time now to close ranks with or at least tolerate ’those’ who ’see’ thinbgs differtly.

Not bad advice, given our collective circumstance …

What has been the actual reality, on the ’ground’, over the time during which such ’admonishment’ has been at play?

Let us go back some yesterdays … Once upon a time, Oklahoma Kiddo and Lahoma, his wife (decent, kindly and thoughtful beings they seemed to me)were often to be observed commenting at the Lake, mostly Kiddo … until that fateful day.

Scroll forward a bit, and we discover that a certain Paul Lukasiak would be headlining a series of posts.

Paul was most-’instructive’.

But, frankly, I found the experiencesomewhat less than, let us say, it could have been …

Scroll forward further, and we discover said Paul unleashing rather unpleasant, and, if I may say, quite unjustified invective towards Marcy, on one of her posts …

Shortly, thereafter, Christy declines, with true c lass and style, to ’engage in a flame-war’ with said Paul.

In the interests of fairness, it must be pointed out that Kiddo was (and, I suspect, still is) a vocal supporter of Barack Obama.

Whereas, we learned towards the end of Mr. Lukasiac’s ’series’ that he was, resolutely, single-mindedly and even abrasively a staunch supporter of Hillary Clinton.

Now, neither HIllary Clinton to date (subject, hopefully, to change) nor Mr Lukasiac has been willing to acknowledge OR accept that Barack Obama has, in fact, ’won’ a bitter and devisive primary …

Several questions, arising from equal amounts of curiousity and abysmal ignorance come to my meager thought-process.

1. How can we ’come together’ until reality is recognized, if not happily embraced, by BOTH sides?

2. Given Paul’s behaviour, relative to Kiddo’s, has ’enforcement’ or ’consequence’ been fairly and equally assigned?

3. Perhaps these two ’examples’ are so disimilar as to be beyond comparison?

4. If so, is this because of ’whom’, relative to ’whatever’ the ’parties’,
Kiddo and Paul actually are?

5. Or, and this is my ’take’, do the parties hold very different views of ’honorable discussion’ and proper behavior?

I raise these questions not by way of criticism or even in the expectation of ’explanation’.

Thoughtful people of conscience should notn generally ’do’ explanations. However, by having clearly defined and stated principles and a record of mostly reasonable behavior, they rarely have need of them.

It might prove helpful, therefore, were we to discuss, or have claerly presented to us, whatever principles or ’rules’ are to be respected here, understood and accepted by all.

Perhaps it would be appropriate to assume that All may expect reasonable behavior, including ’respect’ and the willingness to HEAR the ’other’ perspective, from themselves and each other …

UNTIL there is a mutual willingness to ’begin’ to ’come together’, the best thing possible is to be OPEN to such willingness, to practice such willingness whenever possible with whomever ’gets it’ …

As long as only one ’side’ is required to be ’willing’ … the best we may manage is to wait patiently until … until ’reality’ sinks in …

A further problem is that the powerful follow NO rules, unless REQUIRED to do so.

The rest of us don’t own anti-gravity devices and always have to come back to Earth.

On that mundane level, back on Earth, I miss Kiddo and Lahoma; were I to have more opportunity of missing Paul, until he has gathered his wits and honed his social-skills somewhat, I should not despair overmuch …

As to the Clinton supporters who would rather vote for John McCain, ’because Obama can’t win …’, we may have a long wait.

I suggest we had best go ahead without them, should they remain adamant in their intentions …

Wow.

I took my first acid trip in Chinatown SF earlier that year. At night. It was like bein’ in the “Roger Rabbit” movie.

Sweet and sad memories. We really should have some
conversation about Robert Kennedy today.

Gotta go. Babysitting.

Nicely said

good god, absolutely.

Just today someone asked me about tim russert. All I had to say was he was cheney’s go to guy for a media platform and that person is no longer a TR fan.

It’s interesting. I would consider myself “low information” but there are many folks who have no idea what the hell is going on. Just that the big picture sucks overall.

From what I understand he already did and she rejected it. I am a 66 year old and I never ever considered Hillary as a candidate I would vote for. But Obama has never ever disrespected her. She is using the a threat card and I do not approve of that.

Amen!!

{Sorry to be so far down thread in saying so, but I’m trying to catch up.]

As per Chuck Todd last night (unless I hallucinated watching the TeeVee), Obama got eough Super delagtes last night to clinch the nomination. And I believe the goal posts are in their final position. Unless I am notifed otherwise.

That’s why Obama is now the presumptive nominee.

Jane, I have lived by the motto, that everything in life comes down to two things- choice and consequence, period. A black man, who keeps reminding me that he is black,not mixed, with little experience or a white woman, with lots of experience that doesn’t keep saying that she is white, the choice is easy for me. Obama and Oprah made this a racial issue for me. Hell, I wish a black woman would have ran- unless it was Condi. Then maybe we would have someone who understands both racism and sexism. Oprah let the world know that color is more important than gender (choice). The one person who has made so much off of white women had the choice and she chose color. To this day I haven’t heard her elaborate on Obama’s record or experience. This was THE time for a woman, black or white, to shine and once again they have been told that there is a reason why they can’t participate. So ladies, go home, make the old man supper, do the laundry, take out the trash and we’ll call you when we need something ( you know ) . Got it?

Yeah, thanks for the reminder about Lieberman. yikes. that was definitely pause for concern. Now look where he is!

My position is that they all suck. But BO won me over with his leadership skills. He wasn’t my first choice, though.

Yeah, I know but the “Denver” shouters still want 2,209.

The Clintons did not come within a “hair” of winning the nomination. If there were no superdelegates ( a vestige of the Vietnam reactionary dominated Democratic Party) and all delegates were awarded based on voting, the nomination would have won by Obama long ago.

“If only” are a couple of the most futile words in the English language. The rules are the rules. Both campaigns played by them, your fantasy concept of a more perfect primary notwithstanding, and should be judged by them. The popular vote was close enough that HRC could argue she won it with a straight face. Team Clinton garnered 92% of the Obama total in committed delegates, and with the supers, it was described on even pro-Obama blogs as a photo finish. Finally, if it wasn’t close, why all the heavy investment in getting Hillary to throw in the towel now? If her campaign had truly “trainwrecked” then it would all be a moot point.

I agree. on an earlier thread I pointed out that Hilarry supporters would do well to just chill and wait for her to tell them/ the world what it is that she wants. Let her lead.

The policy stands of both Obama and Clinton are very similar. They are complete opposites of the Bush/McCain stands. Anyone that stays home in November or votes McCain is not a Democrat and is a very foolish American. This is not about one person, one personality, or one candidate. It is about moving the country forward in a progressive manner and undoing the damage inflicted by Bush. It is about life, saving lives by ending the War. Life, better economic policies, health care and jobs in America. Get over your disappointment and be adult. Support the Democratic Party from the Presidential candidate all the way down the ticket.

Women were not told they could not participate. They voted in the millions. This is politics, not personal. People voted – Obama won. As a female who worked many years in Dem politics to make things better for women, I don’t think we are now relegated to taking out the trash because Hillary lost.

I was in the Army in Germany and my black friends took Bobby’s assassination with almost as much grief and anger as they took MLK’s. I will never forget those days when I was overseas and could only catch glimpses of what was really happening “Back in The World”. It was very frustrating to so out of touch!!! Caused me to not take a lucrative job(tax free) with a company that was deploying new microwave systems in Germany for the Army.

I can only imagine what those folks are going through. (((techies)))

Well said.

Had some catching up to do and Raven directed me to your comment in Isaiah’s post upstairs.

Let me just say this…

When I was at the Maine Democratic State Convention this past weekend as an Obama delegate, the Hillary supporters were rude, jerky, and downright angry. With close to 4,000 people packed in at the Augusta Civic Center, bumping into people as you walked was a common occurance. What did it mean to a Hillary supporter if you ACCIDENTALLY bumped into one of them as you tried to make your way through a crowd of 50 or more smooshed into the foyer? Oh that’s right! You (the one who bumped in the Hillary supporter) was doing that on purpose and trying to bully the Hillary supporters because you want the Hillary supporter to know how you think of them!

I honestly can’t believe I didn’t give one of them a right cross to the face after being accused by them countless times, “you did that on purpose!”!!!!

To them (the WATB Hillary supporters), I say…..EFF OFF…with a stick the size of the shuttle launch pad thingamagiggy that keeps it from falling over!

Hillary has created millions of FAKE, ANGRY, VILE, DISGUSTING, VICTIMS.

Breaking News for lukasiak!

”Hillary Clinton Supporters for John McCain”

Yeah that was about as lame as it gets.

So ladies, go home, make the old man supper, do the laundry, take out the trash and we’ll call you when we need something ( you know ). Got it?

My spouse of 34 years is as smart and progressive and successful as they come. She busted a Big Swingin’ Dicks glass ceiling to become Director of Quality for the Environmental Division of Shaw (SGR). She has frequently earned 2x my pay rate. BTW, mostly I cook her supper, and I do laundry, and take out the trash, etc. So spare me the lame reverse sexism, rdwdkw. God, that is so weak.

We both supported HRC (caucused for her in NV), but then she lost us. For Hil to lose my wife speaks volumes. Doesn’t have shit to do with gender antipathy.

I agree. on an earlier thread I pointed out that Hilarry supporters would do well to just chill and wait for her to tell them/ the world what it is that she wants. Let her lead.
–
who cares what SHE wants? I voted for her. I am now supporting the nominee. He needs to make decisions that will help the ticket win — not placate the self absorbed. Her failure to be gracious has already hurt the ticket. Time to get out of the way.

I thought she would be a fine president; certainly a better president than John McCain. But she isn’t going to be President and it is time to work to make sure the nominee IS. It looks like she is trying to assure that he loses so she has another bite at the apple. If that happens, I for one will do everything I can to make sure her political career is done.

New Dave Neiwert a couple of flights up

The Hmsher video in my reference point. The peson apologised the next day.
Some point on the 18 million “Hillaryvotes” Some of those were crossovers promotes by Russ Limbaugh’s campaign. He white male who won’t vote for a black candidate was a rscist ploy and noone using those tactics should or will be VP.
She is BK in political and monitary capital. She has offende more people than engratiated. I suspect the “new voters” she brought out will vote Repug in the general election.
So a lot of what you are saying is unproven and a meme myth used to get a conservative on the ticket (Hillary is a conservative by voting record by supporter base) America wants a new deck we need good jobs and oppotunty. I like the Edwards agenda in that respect. I hope he is asked to be lead such an effort.

I suspect Harriet was a GOP mole. I am a female. While not quite as old as Harriet, I have much less money. (I can’t zip off from NYC to DC on a whim. Or for any reason.)

As for the others who still refuse to support Barack, I suspect many (most?) are racists. It is not as simple as being ”lower middle class.” What am *I*? Why do they worship a very rich woman, who grew up VERY comfortably, and has her spot in life, thanks to her husband?

Face it — Hillary is NOT a feminist. She does not hold womens’ rights foremost. She is an opportunist, willing to say or do anything to get what she wants.

As for the women who would vote for McCain over Obama — I say GO FOR IT. Why do I care? I live in California — abortion will still be legal here, for my daughter.

Again — they are children, not adults.

Seems we need to be reminded of our manners and the need to practice them. if we are to have a respectful thread we need to allow that we do so as fellow travelers in life and disagreement Happens. Such Is life. We need to remember to agree to disagree…. No need to get personnel

It might prove helpful, therefore, were we to discuss, or have claerly presented to us, whatever principles or ’rules’ are to be respected here, understood and accepted by all.

DWBartoo @275 – thank you for that and for your entire comment.

before paul was obnoxious with marcy, he’s made unfounded accusations of misogyny. he’s used racially offensive language (imo, coded racist language). and i am expected to swallow this every day i’m here? in the name of unity? how can i believe in a unity that rejects kiddo, censors norske and yet promotes paul’s abusiveness? how can i believe in a unity that requires me to put up with the abuse?

no thank you.

i hope i’m wrong, but i’m beginning to think that this unity doesn’t include me.

Thank you, DWBartoo.

It is all her fault… Just that attitude runs deep in these people…. How fucking sad for them. It is over for Hill, now lets concentrate of the overall objective of returning Government to the People and take it away from BIG Moneyed republicans and Fundies!! Get behind the Democratic nominee so we can get started down the road of accomplishing the task of getting the government to a Government of the people. time has come for opur great moment in time and for us to do those things that must be done. Come together ! Come on we can do it!

Selise, I made that comment thinking, very much, about how you dealt so impeccably well with Mr. Lukasiac’s invective when it was repeatedly directed towards you, as well as when it was aimed at others.

I appreciate greatly, that you, and others, thankfully too-numerous to mention, have reacted, thoughtfully and honestly, to those ‘patterns’, which appear, at times, to tolerate behaviors from some that would not be permitted others.

However, those behaviors are, one suspects, rather abundabtly clear, now, to all here in attendance, even to those who might approve of and applaud such ‘polemical’ … behavior.

You might be happy with the way Tweety and the rest treated Hilliary, but my wife wasn’t- and I heard her loud and clear. Women make less than men for a reason – get it.

I was not clear. I was addressingthose who say “he must make her VP” or he must goive her x or he must give her Y.

In politics if someone has influence over a big block of voters that you need, you do something to court htat person ans persuade them to throw their support your way.

Instead of Hillary supporters getting all calified about what the deal ought to be, they might want to let her deide for herself.

So HIllary gave the “Archie Bunkers” a podium good grief. Hopefully the Kennedy influence will keep Obama from moving right. Clinton moved to the right then across the aisle how do you justify giving her anything? She has a seat in the US Senate let her do that. Please after Bill’s right moving policies, cutting Health and Welfare budgets and war in the Balkans, domestic spying and torture pollicies! Give me a break.

yes but it should be in favor of winning the general election. I really think VP would console some of her voters. I could be wrong.

Of course I get it but women don’t make less because of Obama. The MSM has been grossly unfair to both Hillary and Obama. We need to change that but it’s going to take a long time.

That’s stereotyping supporters to say we are Archie bunkers. Again she did have a better health care plan among other things. It was her not Obama I heard talk of dropping No Child left behind, etc. And why do I have to keep stressing that some of us voted on the issues that are important to us and not because we’re ”Archie Bunkers”. I mean Archie Bunker would take one look at me and throw me out of his house. And Bill was 90s. There are different circumstances. The Bush administration has taken policies started in the Clinton administration too far. That has been addressed somewhat in her campaign, re: fair trade and NAFTA.

I agree and it is very disappointing and disheartening. I expected something very different from FDL.

ABC news is reportin that Hillary has announced that she will drop out on Friday.

So everybody can now calm down.

Whew

i didn’t react well on saturday night, though.

guess i have my limits like everyone else. and what is especially galling is that paul is not a troll. he’s a guest poster and supported by david and jane. that makes him part of the public face of the blog. so i can’t just scroll past – that would be complicity. but if i’m not able to reliably respond in a constructive fashion, what is there to do?

i really do wish someone would tell me what the rules are. if there are any.

RGB – where are you when i need you?

I have stood for women’s rights since the 60’s and Tittle 19 a meaningful public school policy to give women equal funding in P.E and Recreation. My most fav alltime political group is Code Pink.
To play the gender card is weak political tea. Women are getting the short shrift all over the planet. Bill/Hillary did not make a dent in that.
Government needs to support humanist type policies.
The MSM is the ones that did Hillary the disservice they are owned by the Neocons. Put the blame where the responsibility is on that victinization. I see a lot of sophistic arguments from the Hillary folks. Why wheedle?

I believe that Hillary is 60. If she becomes VP so that she can run when Obama finishes his 8 years she will be 68. It is going to be difficult enough to get a woman elected but I don’t think there’s any way in the world that people will vote for a woman who is 68. Also since so many people are saying they are tired of the Clintons now what do you think they would be saying in another 8 years? Not good for Hillary at all. She has everything to lose as VP.

lhp – my problems have nothing to do with either clinton or obama. i was never a fan of either but was resigned to supporting whoever won. mccain makes both of them look pretty good to me.

Dosido! Correction! I have never seen you use the word “evil.” I hope you see this. So what I meant to say in the word mangle I mad above was: Peace, I never heard or saw you say something offensive. Really.

Oh, geebus how I f*cked up on this thread. I can blame technical difficulties to a certain degree.

Hi Selise. Having fun? somehow in the chop-chop of technology, like the computer didn’t catch up with my typing, and I didn’t bother to look. Arghh. I ended up making some word salad statements. So embarrassing. Lessons learned. What happened to edit?!? And what happened to OK? You can email me.

All our progressive problems would be solved if er say Dennis Kucinich was consider “electable.” We can work on that you and I, Okay? First we have to get him a new wardrobe. Email me.

Obama’s biggest problem is that he is the weaker candidate — and the weaker choice for President.

That’s a mouthful. It’s true being black in the US is a large disadvantage. People won’t vote for you because of your skin color. You can walk on water and they will remain unpersuaded. Stupid, but it seems to be a fact. Also Jews believe Obama will sell Israel down the river. He says he won’t, but who believes politicians? Were Obama to be more even handed between Israelis and Palestinians, it would be in Israel’s best interest, but few American Jews believe that.

On the other hand Obama is an inspiring speaker and he’s a hell of a smart guy. He saw anti-Bush sentiment as an opening for a black candidate. He was right. Ask Hillary. In the thirties the people of Bridgeport, CT elected a mayor named McLevy. He was a roofer by trade and he ran as, are you ready, a socialist. He would not have had a chance had the city not been on the verge of bankruptcy, its coffers pilfered by the major parties. Bridgeporters had no place else to go. Quite a few Americans may feel that way in November about Obama. They will vote for him in spite of his race. I think you will too.

Sorry, but as you and the pundits keep saying, it isn’t just women who are mad at the DNC and the way this has all played out. I’m an Independent, but one due to local politics more than anything. I could vote for Clinton, I cannot vote for Obama. The Chicago political machine is what has turned me off to him. Nothing about race has entered my mind. I was disappointed when Kerry got the nomination, but I voted for him. I will not make the same mistake again. I’m going with the maverick. I definitely will not allow a complicit media to pick my President and I do not want any religiosity near my government again. Just the fact that the evangelicals do NOT support McCain is good enough for me.

What about the Chicago political machine turned you off? Political machines are ubiquitous. Politicians are not saints, but Obama seems a cut above the ordinary. Alas, he does not walk on water. I tried it once in my bathtub and almost broke my neck.

McCain the maverick. You must be joking. If you elect him you deserve what you assuredly will get. The problem is I will get it too and I don’t deserve it.

Whichever of these two fine candidates got the nomination, the result was going to be historic. If the candidates and their supporters can now put the acrimony of the battle behind them, and unite behind a ticket which has them both, then both sides can vote for their candidate in the General. Remember that Dick and Bush have changed the nature of the Vice-Presidency: it’s no longer just the President’s understudy.

So I say this is still a terrific opportunity for the people to turn over the apple cart after 8 years of the worst President in history by giving the Administration to a black man and a woman. What could say “Change” more clearly?

There is going to be plenty to do. These are troubled times, thanks to you-know-who, so there’s plenty of work to go round. If they can dance around each other without treading on the other’s toes, let’s give them the job.

Jane, you summed it up perfectly.

I have always felt that an Obama-Clinton ticket would be virtually unstoppable and while Obama may fear the possibility that Hillary as VP might overshadow him, I think it’s the only way to unite a very divided party. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s enough that come Saturday, Hillary will publicly toss an olive branch out to Obama. And I can’t help but think she knows that.

Most people I work with are Democrats and I was blown away by how many Hillary supporters absolutely HATE Obama and they are saying that nothing in the world, other than Hillary on the ticket as VP, would stop them from voting for McCain or not voting at all. Regardless of how idiotic or useless some may think that is, we have to deal with that reality. My concern is that the DNC big-wigs, who are out of touch to begin with, won’t ‘get’ that- they seem to be opposed to an Obama-Hillary ticket, although many of them refuse to disclose that one of the reasons is because they (example, Ed Rendell) are hoping to win the coveted VP spot themselves.

ygm….

just want to say again publicly that any and all of my problems with any politician / candidate are separate from my thinking and respect for their supporters.

thanks for the validation. nice to realize not alone in seeing it that way.

it seems like the push to win with HRC meant demonizing BO to her following. she raised the stakes quite high to win. putting the hearts and minds of her followers on the table. not trustworthy and part of what needs to be changed so badly in our leadership. exploitation of trust. sacrifice of the common good for self-aggrandizement and promotion. anything should NOT go in a political battle.

ironically, a powerful female figure helped seriously launch Barack. Oprah. So many trusted her as the nation’s teacher. And a powerful woman, Hillary, tried to end that hopeful momentum toward him. Another powerful and trusted (by some) leader.

we are a wounded child=nation looking to a strong, trustworthy parent leader. We have endured enough dysfunction. I hope we have found a non-toxic parent leader. he doesn’t have to be perfect. But with serious ethics.

In the hours since this posting, events have changed the situation dramatically. Obama effectively stopped the Clinton campaign for veep [his selection panel, notably CK] as effectively as he won the nomination.

I was once a staunch supporter of the Clintons, but long ago soured. Her sense of entitlement played out in small ways, years ago, and some of us took note. Careful of the people you step on on the way up [or budge in line in front of], ’cause you’ll meet them–or their constituents–on the way down.

And, I should note, Clinton’s own supporters stopped her as well.

And a powerful woman, Hillary, tried to end that hopeful momentum toward him. Another powerful and trusted (by some) leader.

Yes, I’ll say one more thing and then stop whining. Tuesday should’ve been his night. It was huge, historic, as it would’ve been for her if she had had the delegates. Her speaking of having 270 electoral votes, the popular vote, etc. diminished him and the Obama family’s moment, and the moment for all African-Americans. She stole his thunder.

Just for the record, what do you think the results would have been in coverage if HRC had announced Tuesday night that she was withdrawing from the race and suspending her campaign. Would the TradMed have covered “Clinton Withdraws!” or would they have covered “Great Obama Speech in Minneapolis!”? My personal believe is a Clinton withdrawal on Tuesday would have sucked all the air out of Obama and been the major story.

I realize that it sounds unusual but by staying in the race and not conceding Tuesday night, Clinton actually did Obama a small favor.

Terrific comment, thanks.

Paul, your argument doesn’t work. If HRC held your position, she would simply state she isn’t interested in the Veep with Obama.

Thank God, she isn’t doing that.

Per Jane’s eloquent arguments, I’m 100% in favor of HRC as VP. No one can do more right now to heal the ethnic rift in the Democratic party than HRC. It relatively speaking, inoculates her “hard working white voters” comment.

I know Bill carries a lot of baggage, but we just have to live with that.

I think that everything will work out fine in the end and that both Obama and Clinton supporters need to just calm down.

I’ve never participated in any election where the supporters of the candidate who loses aren’t upset. This is not new and NO the sky will not come crashing down because of it.

I think the Obama supporters need to give the Hillary supporters time to come to grips with her defeat and the Clinton supporters need to realize that just because you want your candidate to continue in the race (now as VP) that it may not happen because NO losing candidate is ENTITLED to be on the ticket.

For those that want Hillary as VP I would suggest that they talk up Hillary’s positives and stop attacking the nominee and his supporters. And for heavens sake stop threatening to vote for McCain because it makes you look like spoil sports. For those that don’t want Hillary on the ticket you need to stop knocking Hillary and her supporters and start talking about the positive benefits of whatever VP you prefer. Going after Hillary and her supporters is counter productive for the nominee you profess to support.

And now that I’ve probably ticked off both camps I’ll log off. LOL

I agree pluk is on the edge of being banned.

FWIW. pluk, brought a lot to this community (ew’s old blog, tnh too) in terms of rock solid analysis and some front page stuff, that OK Kiddo never did. I think it’s because of pluk’s intellectual gifts that he has the potential to do more damage than OK Kiddo.

Please explain the concept of “black,” not “mixed.”

Also, I missed where Obama kept reminding everyone that he’s “black.” Do you have a link?

Seconded.

selise, I missed pluk’s invective against you.

You are a great and involved commenter here at the lake. I did not factor that into my previous comment about banning pluk.

100% correct. One of many problems with pluk’s comments is that it casts HRC as a liberal. Neither she nor Obama are.

Usually a lurker, but no you are not the only one. I realize that this site was trying to stay out of the fray as much as possible, and technically remain neutral, but to start posting about Clinton’s VP chances without even one major piece on his victory and what he has accomplished, not just as an African American but also how he is moving this party to a more grassroots dependent entity (see DNC move today), I find to be troubling. From a woman, I am not suggesting we ignore Clinton’s future and her base but I think in the interest of any fairness he should be at least honored for his accomplishments. I had hoped this would have happened by now.

Maybe. But as it happened, they obsessed on “Clinton didn’t concede!”

pluk, when you say someone isn’t electable, because of their ethnicity, that angers a lot of people. I don’t think you intend it as such, but meaning is a two-way street. The recipient of your message gets a vote.

You have made comments which paint you as dyed-in-the-wool and very refined, very intelligent white supremacist. I know you’ll reject that, but that is how other people will interpret your comments. They are especially divisive after HRC suspended her campaign and threw her support behind Obama. Now you have no place to hide, if you refuse to support Obama. People who use to respect you, will believe even more strongly that you are simply a refined white supremacist. If you refuse to support Obama now, there is no difference between your position and segregation. You have painted yourself into that corner. I’m glad you weren’t at Valley Forge. You would have thrown in the towell. You have a chance, today, 2008, to fight white supremacy. It’s not a done deal and we need your help. Obama’s not a perfect candidate, neither was HRC. They are both infinitely better than McSane. Please, publicly pledge your support for the Democratic ticket to undo some of the damage you have already done at FDL.

Please, Jane is getting smacked by long time supporters on both sides. Neither HRC nor Obama is a liberal candidate.

Who else is blogging about Jena?

Dave Niewert just did another update. The code word for supporting the poor who are not 100% European American is “universal health care.” Jane’s been all over that for years.

I’m in my mid-fifties and through all the Presidential elections I have followed, I do not ever re-call the lead challenger withdrawing from the election on the night of the primary where the eventual nominee goes over the top.

It just does not happen.

And most of the coverage that I saw Tuesday night concentrated on how lousy a speech McCain gave and how crappy he looked and what a good speech Obama gave and how good he looked.

Was there coverage of Clinton? You bet. But nothing like there would have been had she withdrawn at that point.

Christy way up top with another call to arms on FISA

i don’t want to see anyone banned. i do wish that the standard for discourse would be spelled out (i though i knew what it was) and that we would all equally be expected to adhere to it.

pluk, if you were making the “realistic” argument that a Democrat who was gay or lesbian, who had won the primary, could not get elected, a lot of gays and lesbians would accuse you of homophobia.

Thank you.

but to start posting about Clinton’s VP chances without even one major piece on his victory and what he has accomplished, not just as an African American but also how he is moving this party to a more grassroots dependent entity (see DNC move today), I find to be troubling

Good to know I am not alone.

And I’m we’re still waiting.

Neither HRC nor Obama is a liberal candidate.

What does that have to do with a post congratulating Sen. Obama?

As for the rest of your comment, Jane’s liberal/progressive cred isn’t in question here, nor should it be.

(((mui)))

Dosido! Correction! I have never seen you use the word “evil.” I hope you see this. So what I meant to say in the word mangle I mad above was: Peace, I never heard or saw you say something offensive. Really.

Thanks for this! I have a big smile on my face and tears in my eyes. I wasn’t able to come back to the Lake until now because of the server or some techgremlin problem.

I do continue to feel contrite because the RBC thing just got my juices going. I know I’ve stated my opinions about all candidates in a frank way before that but I’m just going to check myself more carefully first.

Honestly, I attribute emotions running so very high because I cannot remember (in my lifetime) ever feeling like an election was this important. Nor can I remember the country being so effed up.

Thanks again. Peace and hugs from one patriot to another!

Thanks my apologies.

I thought you were calling Jane’s liberal credentials into question.

My bad.

STTP, I was simply trying to state that I think Jane’s damned if she does and damned if she doesn’t. She’s trying to hold a community together in which precious little ground exists. I support her pragmatic decision not to post congratulations to Obama. I just think this community needs to stay focussed on liberal issues. That’s where FDL’s niche is. A post such as you mentioned, imho does nothing more than invite more divisiveness.

She’s trying to hold a community together in which precious little ground exists

SHOULD HAVE READ

She’s trying to hold a community together in which precious little MIDDLE ground exists

I apologize that I’ve not time to read all 300+ comments on this thread, but want to say ‘thanks’ for nailing, with your usual acuity, a phenomenon that I agree will play out in this election.

Many women identify with Hillary.
Those in my circle may not like her, but respect the way that she’s stood up to the appalling dirt hurled her way.
Those in my circle look at the Bush twins, and then at Chelsea, and go, “So much for the bullshit about GOP having ‘family values’ because we can see at a glance who’s the better parent here (i.e., NOT Laura Bush).”

Obama is a gifted man.
The last thing this nation needs is women moving in McCain’s direction — can you say, “Roger Stone”?

The Dems have to win this election.
Obama is clearly gifted, but he needs to be more clear about the hostility that has zero to do with racism and (as Jim Webb points out) a hell of a lot to do with ‘affirmative action’. (And I say that as a supporter of affirmative action, because I believe it’s like what Churchill said of democracy: ‘the worst system in the world, except for all the others’).

Obama needs to handle this more astutely.
Because a hell of a lot more rides on Hillary in this election than she’s being given credit for right now.

As for the ‘academic feminists’, fuck their bullshit.
I’ve yet to see a single one of them be able to hold their ground in a knife fight in the biz world; they don’t know shit. Faculties in the academy think the ‘win’ arguments because someone else got appointed to a new committee; that’s mostly emotive without much effect.
They sold Hillary down the river.

Which really underscores your point.
A lot of people who may not ‘like’ Hillary have come to respect her work ethic.
That’s really what a lot of this is about.

(((dosido))). I am sorry about that again. Maybe it was the blogswarm frenzy, plus tech gremlins, plus er, babysitting toddlers on-ground here. But maybe I should stay off the blog rather than multitask and mangle comments. Again I am sorry. Hugs and a salute to youas well.

I agree. Why ban anyone? Obama says he will talk to any government. I consider that part of his appeal. It’s bad enough there are moderators. Censorship is supposed to be unAmerican. If anyone doesn’t like what someone has to say, scroll past it. Does that ask too much? I disagree with much of what pluk says, but I defend to the death his right to say it.

Er BooRadley?
Precious little middle ground? How about net neutrality, FISA, Gitmo, brutal detention of immigrants, wiretapping, habeas corpus, health care, better working conditions, the dumping on regulations that protect workers (like those coalminers), privatization of everything (war, prison, you name it). The abuse and waste and fraudulence in government with money for Chimp and friends and none for us. . . Um this is too long a list. I think there is a lot of middle ground. You probably know that. And really I think moveon.org should have stuck with issues like Jane, instead of getting into the primary fray.

Great comment, thank you.

I don’t know about banning. But there are instances where persons with perfectly valid viewpoints get shouted out. Can’t think of an example at the moments, but it happens everywhere not just on the blogosphere. Truthfully, you don’t have to believe me. Check Computer mediated studies online. Women, minorities and those that get the short end of the stick tend to get the short end of the stick on the net as well. And for a “dirty feminist” blog, that’s probably not the ideal environment to promote. So I don’t mind the moderators. And I often get moderated as of late.

I have a feeling that if occasionally folks weren’t banned or moderated, this place would look like a turd infested swamp that would make pajamas media, lgf, or malkin look like it was filled with thoughtful coherent, rational analysis.

Occasionally, I’ve seen comments make it out to thread before getting removed. It is not a pretty sight. Think the style of comments of the places I just mentioned.

But of course, you can always set up a blog of your own and see how it goes.

Your welcome. I don’t know about middle ground, but there certainly is common ground, and well those issues will stay a concern, I’m afraid to say, and are more important than which middle-of-the-road non-progressive democrat gets the nomination.
Now I have to get off, that is the blog, I mean.

I support her pragmatic decision not to post congratulations to Obama. I just think this community needs to stay focussed on liberal issues. That’s where FDL’s niche is. A post such as you mentioned, imho does nothing more than invite more divisiveness.

One of the good things about this place is the ability to agree to disagree in a civilized fashion, as I must do now.

A post congratulating Sen. Obama does nothing to diminish the liberal/progressive cause, nor take time away from other pressing liberal issues.

His candidacy speaks volumes about how far we’ve come as a nation and, as our standard bearer going into the fall elections, deserves more respect than a stifled yawn and an immediate look into Sen. Clinton’s VP chances.

To say that one post acknowledging the significance of the first African American to secure a major party’s presidential candidacy will only “invite more divisiveness” doesn’t speak well at all of those that would feel that way.

Besides, as I’ve pointed out before, if Sen. Clinton had won there’s no doubt in my mind I wouldn’t be able to find my keyboard for all the confetti that would be flying — and deservedly so — at FDL these days.

I had a blog once, but it got spammed. Lots of ads and links to porn sites. I didn’t have time to moderate it, so I shut it down. It’s unfortunate people don’t take the internet seriously. It doesn’t take more than a few to screw it up for the many. I guess I should have been more precise. I disagree with pluk, but I didn’t see anything untoward about his posts. His crime, if it is a crime, was to disagree with most of the people here. I don’t see that as a banning offense.