We here in the blogosphere often rain contempt on the media for how they run in packs; for how they repeat the wisdom of the "village", a self anointed group of a few hundred key people who think that their opinion is the same as the opinions of America, which is why they constantly go on about what Americans want in ways that are completely disconnected from poll results or reality. The "center" to the village, is the consensus opinion of the Village.
We like to think we're better than them. That we see through the BS, that we are more objective—that we're not as insular or addicted to our predetermined storylines as they are. That we are independent and willing to strike out on our own, not addicted to the cover of the pack, not playing high-school games of in-groups and out, of dominance and hierarchy, of cool-kids and outcasts.
If only it were so. Oh, I suppose we aren't quite as bad as them. There are a few more mavericks. There is more truth telling about certain things.
But when the pack decides on a storyline, we're as good at sticking to it as they are and of refusing to see either contrary evidence or why the other side feels as it does as the media is.
This primary season has to have dispelled the myth of the objective blogosphere that doesn't drink the kool-aid. If it hasn't, it certainly should have. The majority of the blogosphere became pro-Obama and savagely so, so much so that many major bloggers will tell you with a straight face that nothing misogynistic has ever come from the Obama campaign. (For example, nothing like Jesse Jackson saying that Clinton only cries for her looks, not for blacks who lost everything in Katrina.)
A much smaller, but nonetheless vocal part of the blogosphere clustered into a few enclaves to represent the other side, with at least a couple blogs becoming the mirror of what Corrente likes to call "Clinton Derangement Syndrome." The pure visceral contempt poured out by many pro-Obama bloggers was matched and returned.
That loathing has become so ingrained after months of attacks on the fundamental character of both candidates (she's fundamentally a racist southern cracker, he's a misogynist empty suit, according to the most rabid supporters of either side) that at all of these blogs one can regularly hear the commenters, and on the diary sites, even front paged posts saying they would never vote for the other candidate. In the early months you'd hear it more from the Obama side, but of late, as it's become clear that Obama was the strong favorite to win, it came more and more from Clinton's supporters.
Now I'm no sweet disinterested observer. I have a preference, and it's for Clinton. I've even defended her, being one of the few not firmly at one of the Clinton-blogs willing to come out swinging on her behalf when she was, in my opinion, ludicrously accused of staying in the nomination battle in hopes of Obama being assassinated. It was an odd accusation, because even if Clinton had stepped out of the nomination battle and then Obama had been assassinated, it was unthinkable that anyone but her would be nominated. I can't think of any scenario in which the second place finisher who received almost 50% of the vote, wouldn't have received the nod. Clinton didn't need to stay in the nomination battle to be the nominee in such a scenario. It made less than no sense.
Bloggers pride themselves in somehow "not drinking the kool-aid". But for the past few months too many of them have acted like the worst members of the media pack. Whoever their candidate is can do no harm, and anything the opposing candidate done is spun in whatever way it can be read worse. Rezko is a corrupt bagman and Obama knew everything. Clinton is so stupid and evil that the only reason she's staying in the race is in hopes of Obama being killed. Obama is a misogynistic jerk and his wife hates America. Clinton is personally racist and her husband is so racist he essentially a southern cracker, not the president who liked African-Americans so much he set up his office in Harlem.
And yet, I'm here to tell you that on most major issues, there isn't a huge amount of sunlight between Clinton and Obama. Oh, there are places where there's some difference. Clinton's health care plan is universal, Obama's is not. But neither are that progressive, neither is, say, "single payer". Obama's telecom plan is better than Clinton's. Clinton's economic stimulus plan was slightly more progressive than Obama's. (You might argue that. You would be proving my point at how little light there is between them.) Obama's key economic advisers are Chicago School economists—guys who are essentially acolytes of Milton Friedman, the Republican icon. Clinton's aren't quite that bad, but they sure aren't progressive.
Despite the fact that neither of them, on their actual records, is a progressive and the fact that their actual policy proposals are pretty similar to each other, the "progressive" blogosphere has been acting as if this is a battle which matters a great deal. It has acted as if the difference between Obama and Clinton is night and day, and that one of them (usually Obama, but sometimes Clinton) is so much better than the other one that it isn't even close.
Not only is it close, but the differences are minor. Folks like Dodd and Kucinich, and to a lesser extent Edwards, who actually made a somewhat radical critique of what is wrong with America, aren't in this fight anymore.
As the line runs about academia, the fight has been so vicious because so little is at stake.
Now none of this is to deny culpability exists in other places. Both the campaigns have pushed storylines they would have better left alone. The media has certainly been happy to spill endless ink on accusations of racism and misogyny and to assume the worst of both candidates.
But we were supposed to be better. More able to see through the BS. We were the ones who knew the war was wrong. We are the ones who slice and dice media bias on a daily basis.
And we drank the kool-aid to the lees, then went on a drunken spree screaming insults at the other side.
And all the anger, all the hatred, has had an effect. As Matt Stoller notes, late February 56% of white Boomer women liked Obama. Today, 43%. 13% loss. And 39% of them think that misogyny hurt Clinton badly. And they resent it and it has spilled over into what they think of the almost certain Democratic nominee for President: Barack Obama.
Way to keep our eye on the ball. So what if Obama loses the actual election, and we slice and dice the numbers, and it turns out that if just a few more white Boomer women, say, had voted for him, he would have won?
(The same argument could easily be made in reverse if Clinton had won, looking at African-Americans or 20-somethings. But she didn't win.)
Part of the blame will belong to us. And honestly, to me, all of this has felt mostly like high-school pack politics. Too many bloggers, just like the media we despise, wanted to be part of the pack. Wanted to be on the "right" side with their peers and friends. Damn near 50% of Democratic voters went for Clinton in the primary, but you'd never know it online. The largest pro-Obama (and not shy about it, either) blogs dwarf the size of the largest pro-Clinton blogs. I doubt the pro-Clinton blogosphere is one-tenth the size of the pro-Obama blogosphere. It's probably closer to one-twentieth.
Part of this is probably because "if it bleeds it leads". Many of the blogs supporting one side or the other have seen large increases in traffic. Not all have, mind you, but there certainly are blogs whose traffic has doubled from tossing out daily red meat.
The larger reason isn't even as understandable as traffic. It's just the instinct drilled into us that being out of step with your peer group is a really bad, and really dangerous, idea.
But that sort of group-think has combined with a self-reinforcing spiral of received truth to build to a crescendo of accusations against both sides (Racist! Sexist! Murderer!) that are going to be very hard to talk down from.
And the blogosphere, created in part to say "just put down the kool-aid" has become what it sought to end, just another part of the echo chamber, endlessly screaming horrible accusations and unable to see either the other side or the damage it was doing to the cause it claimed to believe in.
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Hi Ian!
*waves*
((((Quaker girl))))
Hmmm have a bit of an issue with the construction of that phrase.
Terrific post, Ian thanks.
As you pointed out so well, vilifications of either candidate made it appear that the other one had a liberal/progressive record.
Only if you care to respond, I am interested in your opinion about Obama offering the Veep to Senator Clinton. I think that’s the best choice for Obama, the Democratic party, and the nation. If she doesn’t want it, fine, but at least Obama offered it to her.
Ian, what a thoughtful post! Quite timely, too.
I did not expect anything different from the blogosphere. Political blogs are usually written by fire-breathing partisans. When a blog writer takes a side on something/someone, they are going to be LOUD about it. It got uglier and uglier because of the length of the primary process. 1980 was ugly, but there was no Internet or cable TV. Plus, it didn’t last five months. To my mind, bloggers have acted just like bloggers. That’s why I love them.
Clinton Camp Says Concession Reports False
I’m sorry to be OT, this just broke about an our ago.
Ian a Clinton shrill!? I am *aghast!*
It has always been about the war vote for me. I came here because the poo flinging wasn’t as bad as it was over at other blogs but there were always some voices of reason trying to quell the seething masses.
The size of the respective pro-candidate blogs didn’t really matter as both(in terms of users and/or front page posters) could be equally nasty and full of hate (No Quarter vs Kos).
But I really do appreciate the post.
Wes Clark is pushing Gov. Kathy Sebelius.
sorry, I did not put the source for that - per Ben Smith on Politico.com
If she doesn’t want it, fine, but at least Obama offered it to her.
He has no choice but to at least make the offer if he wants to recover any of the more fervent HRC supporters. Many potential problems obviously, but also a huge potential upside. I hope she accepts the V.P. offer.
Fuck!!!!
why isn’t he advocating for Hillary?
Thanks, Ian. All of that needed to be said.
I just came for impeachment and all i got was this lousy primary.
I’d rather not have her as VP but it’s not my choice to make
I think it did matter, really. It shows how out of touch the blogosphere can get. Yes, the tenor was the same from the worst offenders, but the worst offenders on Obama’s side (vilifying Clinton) were literally talking to an audience 15 to 20 times larger than the Clinton side. Most bloggers don’t seem to get why so many people found Clinton a compelling candidate. I can explain the appeal of both candidates, it’s obvious to me. But most bloggers don’t seem to be able to.
Wes Clark is pushing Gov. Kathy Sebelius.
That would be the same Governor Sebelius who gave the second-most boring speech I ever heard after this year’s State of The Union? Feh.
(most boring award goes to Evan Bayh as the key-note speaker at the 200 Dem convention.)
And isn’t Wes Clarke a Hillary supporter? hmmm…
Do not agree. She would be terrible. We must get rid of all vestiges of the DLC. We must purge them as we would any vehicle that was spawned by Rove….the fact is (according to my wife who made up the fact) that Rove started the DLC along with clinton1 in an attempt ensure that the MIC would continue to own us. No clintons any more, none nada, nil and the same applies to bush.
v
I just have this gut feeling Hil is goin’ Indy.
I’d be absolutely floored if she did. She wouldn’t win the election, she’d be hated and McCain would win. There is no upside for her at all. Her die-hards may want her to, but no one else does.
A true liarman DLC operative
nomolos - could simply be last minute parsing and gamesmanship - believe her camp wants us to believe she is “suspending” her campaign and not conceding -
should be interesting bec Obama camp has been structuring their event tonight around her leaving
I wasn’t talking about target audience rather the tone.
I guess my decision isn’t based solely on the voting record but on who can best heal the country and get us on back on track.
As I said yesterday, let’s assume that all the candidates suck. The one who sucks the least for me is Obama. I do not buy into misogyny smears–look at Michelle!!
Oh and I think Kathleen Sebelius is probably a good governor but an uninspired choice for VP. Perhaps that’s what we want in a VP choice.
Thanks, Ian. I’ve been increasingly dismayed by the level of discourse in areas that I had thought were truly ‘fair and balanced.’ A teachable moment, cultivate a healthy level of skepticism.
After the vitriol, I’d be shocked if she is offered the Veep. Of course I was shocked that Edwards dropped out when he did …
However, I do believe Hillary as Health Secretary, guiding her most important goal of Universal Health Care would be an amazing footnote for a remarkable and resilient woman !
Well I came via other candidates that left the race (3rd time is the charm). But being that my whole life has been a presidency of Bush or Clinton, I wanted something different.
She would be terrible.
I’ll concede that she *could* be terrible.
But she could also be great, if she chooses to put party and country ahead of Hillary. She’s a player, and could get legislation moved. Obama should give her the V.P. offer, and package it with free rein to develop and push *her* health-care plan.
Your response is sincerely reassuring to me (no snark!) My hubby believes she’s too dialed in to the Dem party to do it, but sometimes you can get caught up in the whole effort and she’s surrounded by frankly kooky advisers (imho).
((( Ian )))
She’d also be damaging the legacy of the best President in the past 28 years …
Thanks, Ian. It’s going to take a lot of digesting to figure out what happened here. Your post is a really valuable start.
It sure hasn’t been the blogosphere I thought I signed up for.
Never going to happen. She’ll campaign to the bitter end; I don’t think she’s psychologically capable of leaving a contest before she’s actually lost it. But once Obama has the delegate count to win, she’ll jump the net and congratulate him.
I don’t know what her more loony supporters will do, though.
True. I don’t see her going to SCOTUS. Constitutional law wasn’t her thing.
Thanks for this post. After spending the past 3 years blogging, I have distanced myself from the blogs I used to enjoy. I have “STFU”. Really has saddened me to watch the downhill slide as republican style attacks against Hillary Clinton became the “kewl kids” talking points. It has made me sick to watch progressives tear apart the Clintons. I’ve reached the point where all I can say is fuck em all & leave six for pallbearers.
I’m progressive and never tore the Clintons apart. I just didn’t agree or like her war vote and her war mongering wrt Iran and the middle East. That is my criticism and I will never hold back on any dem crossing that line.
Do not discount the work of the Neocons and the MSM to stir up all these controversies, to disparage the Dems and the blogosphere.
The unity among progressive blogs to fight for FISA, telecom immunity, etc. is scaring the bejeezus out of the traditional power brokers.
The Clinton’s were never progressive and some of us loathed them long before this campaign. Nothing in this campaign has given me any reason to change my mind. . .nothing.
My problem with the whole ‘my candidate is on the right hand of God and your candidate teh sucks’ is that it puts things in an ‘either/or’ position. Either Sen. Clinton is The Great Satan” or she’s not. Either Sen. Obama is The Great Light of the World, or he’s not. Let’s give two professionals some credit here. She could be the greatest whatever since Eleanor Roosevelt…or she could come up against the same BS. Obama could possibly be the greatest ‘evah’ - or if we don’t do our jobs as people at the ground level, he could end up as the Black Jimmy Carter. I have always said - let’s keep our eyes on The Beast - the Republican Party/Bush/Cheney.
OK could… if she were the vp she could be a disaster, she could continue to put the clintonistas ahead of party and country, she could continue her corporate genuflections, she could fuck up health care …again, she could throw the cigar man out on his ear, she could, on the other hand, change to a Democrat.
actually I dislike the word progressive. I’m liberal.
Amen
It sure hasn’t been the blogosphere I thought I signed up for.
Now *that* would make for an interesting conversation. How many days do you think it would take? *g*
Ian, thanks for this deep and thoughful analysis. You learned me.
Ian: Amen! This needed to be said.
As someone who thinks highly of both Obama and Clinton, I have been very disappointed in the tone and quality of the discussions within the progressive blog community.
It didn’t have to be this way. When all is said and done, I think Kos is going to have a lot to answer for.
And another thing, I was told long ago that Jane, Christy, Scarcrow and crew were “bloggers” and the rest of us were “commenters.”
Thom Hartmann says that HRC’s campaign has told the workers that they have one more ticket on the campaign, and that they have to the end of the month to submit their final expense vouchers.
It’s over, folks. HRC might not formally withdraw tonight, but she’s suspending her campaign for-sure.
BC
Socialist here
Yeah, a few of her advisers are pretty bad. It’s one of the best arguments for Obama, imo. OTOH, some of the worst ones did get kicked to the curb.
Hey, the site is tossing a set of code errors:
What’s up with this?
BC
Well, that would be just freaking peachy wouldn’t it…
It’s been doing it repeatedly all day long. ignore
Actually Ian maybe The Blog Pack Vents could be more accurate. Just sayin’
For what? Does that mean Jerome is in deep poo as well?
Tone-deaf John McCain to give a prime-time speech from New Orleans tonight.
Smooth move there, Johnny Mac. Everybody in the country wants to follow the Dem Primary come to a head, and will be spending every moment of having to watch McCain thinking “STFU, and get off my teevee”.
What a maroon.
Yes, Ian, you’re right in your fundamental point: lefties or righties, vociferous ignorance is well distributed.
(Incidentally, I’m quite opposed to Hillary for POTUS; I dealt substantively with her husband in the ’90’s, and I think she is equally bright but morally baseless).
I’m quite left, but I believe in people. I ardently spent ten years, including on the California Democratic Party Executive Committee, trying to bridge the gap from my SF Bay Area base, and I finally gave up.
I read lefty blogs almost obsessively, because I’m always optimistic, but even around here, on Firedoglake, I’m only reminded of why I got out of politics.
Gracias
There were places that didn’t drink either side’s kool-aid. Hopefully I’ll be forgiven for noting FDL was one of them. Jane was right to make that decision. Duncan maintained his cool as well. It’s not all bad, it’s just a reminder that people are people and that we aren’t as different as we thought we’d be. We can be spun. We can stampede in a herd. We can lose our heads while all about are losing theirs.
But some didn’t.
And even in some that did, well, at least most of them did it for passion and belief. Their motives, I think, were usually very good. It’s just that sometimes that isn’t enough.
And blogs are “outrage machines.” Which is fine, there’s been so much to be outraged over that the media has yawned at, that it was needed. But it can spiral out of control, and this primary I think it did a number of times, damaging Democratic presidential chances in the fall — no matter who had won - Obama or Clinton. If Clinton were winning right now, we’d be shaking in our boots about how to contain the African-American and 20-something damage.
New Orleans as a backdrop, to remind us of the Repugs abject failure there …
… why does McCain hate
freedomNeocons ?Hey, you don’t suppose McCain is finally going to put some pressure on his good pal Rape Gurney Joe to do some hearings about the Katrina fiasco?
Me neither.
I don’t know, Ian, but this seems to be one of your most fact-free posts, which is surprising from a guy who always seems to have facts to back up his argument. And, while I understand you feel strongly that Hillary is the better choice, in your rush to assign blame you overlook why many people–myself included–voted for Obama.
I started out as a Clinton supporter. Well, I started out as an Edwards supporter, but knew he didn’t have a shot, and I figured illary would win the thing going away. I had no problem with that: she’s my Senator, and I like the job she’s done. I voted for Bill twice, and despite having some probles with his politics, I felt pretty sure that Hillary would make a good president.
But something happened: Hillary lost. And it was the way in which she lost which caught my attention. Instead of paying attention to the radical changes in the Democratic party in the past few years Hillary, and the cadre of Bill Clinton-era advisors around here, ran a campaign right out of the the 1996 Clinton playbook. No internet presence, no internet fund raising, no ground organization, no acknowledgment of the 50 State Strategy. When contrased with Obama’s campaign, which did all that and more, I could come to only one conclusion: if Hillary won the nomination, she would run the exact campaign the Democrats ran in 2000 and 2004. She would run a little to the left of McCain, ignore most of the country and bet the farm on Ohio, Pennsylania and Florida, and she would lose.
That thought terrified me, and I am not being dramatic. Not only can’t the country stand four more years of George Bush (which is what McCain offers) but even a Clinton victory looked, to me, like a return to the bad old days of the DLC, with the states ignored, the local Democratic organizations left to wither on the vine and the only metric of success being that a Democrat holds the White House.
So I, and others, faced either the prospect of a Democratic loss or a hollow Democratic victory. Given I’ve worked my ass off for the last couple years doing my little part in rebuilding a progressive, vibrant, victorious Democratic party, I am not about to hand the reins off to someone who looks to et all that fall by the wayside, even in victory.
As to the vitriol sometimes expressed by supporters on either side? Human nature. My best friend is a Clinton supporter, and it hasn’t caused any friction between us.
doggone it Ian, have read your post twice now - it’s a thoughtful one
it pains me to disagree with you - but from here it looks like an awful lot of HRC’s problems in left blogistan can not be simply ascribed to Hillary haters -
her campaign’s tactics, statements, hell, gaffes went against the very grain of progressive thinking again and again - “obliterating iran” is just one of many examples
personally, and yeah it’s all about me /s - I was ready to support someone claiming to have been tested again and again by the vast right wing conspiracy - but she couldn’t beat back an insurgency within her own party, how in the hell was she gonna silence the Mighty Wurlitzer ?!?!
That would be true if the perception was that the nomination was stolen from him and given to her, not sour grapes because she won fairly.
Yeah, venting is the word that came to my mind. We’ve been waiting a loooong time to give bush the boot, too long. I think partof the passionate venting is to let some steam off.
Agree.
IMHO, she’s just trying to squeeze out every vote she can from South Dakota and Montana.
WTF is wrong with those people at NoQuarter. Weren’t they supposed to be a liberal site? Or am I off base with that? Supposed democrats shilling for McCain on a blog owned by someone with a CIA background…
*adjusts tinfoil hat*
Thank you, Jane, for keeping FDL straight — when other sites descended into mud flinging tribalism.
For the record, Hillary was always my last choice, but not because she is a woman — it’s her last name and scoundrel husband that turns me off. I became a Pelosi ‘07 partisan after the 2006 midterms, but that didn’t go anywhere, sad to say.
In the end, I became an enthusiastic Obama partisan, because his campaign has the potential to change the political landscape for a generation.
While it would be great to have a woman President, the odds were better that Hillary would unite the GOP in opposition than build a transformative coalition.
Will he serve cake?
.
.
Ian, thanks for this post. And Jane, to your comment about the blogosphere, we all have to reflect and re-unite. There’s much work to be done.
It’s been like being on the sidelines of what was supposed to be an amicable divorce which descended into acrimony and bile on both sides. I’ll own whatever I added to that. Because ultimately we can’t let our differences be irrecon*sigh*lable. We gotta do better for the children.
Hey, you don’t suppose McCain is finally going to put some pressure on his good pal Rape Gurney Joe to do some hearings about the Katrina fiasco?
ummm - no.
Figured out why they’re pals, though. McCain’s tone-deaf - Lieberman’s politically deaf.
Both are dumb. Deaf and dumb - joined at the hip - match made in
HeavenD.C. A match like that could only have been made in D.C.Marion and dosido -
bet she doesn’t want to spend the money in an indy effort - plus ya need a ground game for that and as prev noted, it’s not her forte
This was akin to my perception. The feeling I got out of the Clinton/Obama split was much more “establishment Democrats” versus “younger Democrats.” I can’t speak to the various accusations of sexism/racism - while I was aware of the events reported in the news, I never considered them as significant indicators of what the actual campaigns believed. Mostly they seemed to be manifestations of the frustration and/or exhaustion of the speakers, while the most deliberate rages seemed to be projection and disappointment.
I’ve long recognized that while they differed on supporting the misadventure in Iraq, Clinton and Obama are otherwise centrist Democrats.
The biggest difference for me was that Clinton seems to represent the Democratic party infrastructure more than does Obama, and I have a lot of problems with the DCCC and the people running the Democratic party right now. My hope is that an Obama presidency would clear more deadwood out of the Democratic party offices than would a Clinton presidency.
But you know what? That’s a choice between chocolate sprinkles and chocolate dipped on the ice cream cone: we CANNOT have a McCain presidency, and I’d support Rahm Emanuel for president over McCain if it came down to it (and I pray hard that it never does).
Beyond that, I suspect there is a segment of devoted, activist, feminist Democrats who have been waiting their whole lives for the chance of a female president, and I empathize with their deep disappointment that Yet Another Man (somewhat darker than previously) is going to be President. That must be very disappointing.
But any feminist who votes for McCain out of that disappointment will be denying his or her own granddaughters the right to control their own reproduction, among other things. I hope there is sufficient time between now and November to process that disappointment and pull the right lever in the booth.
1,862 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Ian Welsh and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I find the apology for the M*Clinton campaign inadequacies, it’s failed strategy, and it’s multitude of contemptible actions such as usin’ racist dog whistles, crying sexism, elevating McCain over a Democrat and drapin’ herself in RFK’s bloody shirt typical of what we in this country have come to expect from them. Nothing is ever M*Clinton’s fault and anyway they did it too!! Brother Welsh, is it possible that the “pack attack” behavior may very well be the product of the candidate’s own behavior, attitudes and politics or lack of them? It isn’t as though people haven’t had a whole lot of experience with Mr. and Mrs. Bill.
Even in defeat there is nothing graceful or classy about either of the M*Clinton’s behavior and they are makin every attempt to see to it that Obama and the Democratic Party don’t win in November…this also is not new, ask Al Gore or John Kerry.
No more pathetic apologies for either of these despicable and hopefully retired political entrepreneurs.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND LET’S LET ‘EM BOTH JEST FADE AWAY!!
Seems to me that all this anger comes from almost 8 years of rage at the present administration and real fear for our country and our freedoms. The hope is that we will all realize that and not destroy what we have tried so hard to build.
I don’t think Hillary will be the VP. She will probably stay in the Senate where she can be very effective - if she wants to.
As noted, the campaign did some boneheaded things that were worthy of criticism (as did the Obama campaign, as far as that goes). But really, so many of them were blown completely out of proportion. The loudness of the screams did not match the magnitude of the sins. And again, I simply cannot look at Obama and argue that he is substantially more progressive than Clinton with a straight face. He just isn’t. It’s not like one of them is Feingold, there isn’t a liberal or progressive in the race.
Calling Clinton Evil and “the worst person in the world”, as one front paged HuffPo poster did (and that’s the largest liberal blog, btw) was not productive and is incredibly insulting to the nearly 50% of the primary Democratic electorate who voted for her. If one truly believes she’s that evil, and that the 50% of the most liberal people in the US voted for a fundamentally evil woman… the mind boggles (and since, again, as Obama’s record isn’t substantially different from hers when the rubber hits the road on votes, it makes me wonder about kool-aid.)
Criticism levels much match sin-levels. Clinton (and Obama on the Clinton blogs) were treated with the level of vituperation that Cheney and Bush receive.
I hope that Hillary is able to serve where she will be of most service and the most effective (VP, Cabinet, etc.)
Funny there was no whining about the DLC a couple of years ago when everyone was madly in love with Al Gore! I used to come here and try to argue that Gore is not a liberal and that he was a founding member of the DLC, but I was shouted down by all the Gore lovers.
So this DLC line is a bunch of baloney.
So what is the real reason everyone hates Hillary so very much? Let’s see, what could it be????
Think think think think think…
Well, most of the blosphere is progressive and progressives are perceiving Obama as more progressive than Hillary. I’m aware they’ve voted pretty much the same and have similar stands on issues, but Obama has packaged himself as Hope and a lot of people are excited about that. Personally, I’m progressive and I’m for Obama. Why? Once Edwards dropped out I was undecided, then when Hillary said McCain would make a better commander in chief than Obama, I went over to Obama. That statement, to me, told me she put her winning ahead of the Democratic Party and it sent me right to Obama. I do not expect Obama to be a progressive, far from it.
Hi wobblybits! I hope we’re still friends! :-)
Obama has faced racism as pervasive as any sexism Hillary has had to face. Yet, in an illustration of the contrasts between the two, Obama rose above his “handicap”, while Hillary used hers to manipulate voters.
That is why Hillary loses this nomination.
I understand your point. I personally hate getting emotional about politicians. Its like believing the melodrama around pro-wrestling. I decided against Clinton when she voted for the war powers act. I thought it a cynical ”triangulation” looking forward to her run. Then there is oligarchy issues as well. But I had no problem with the idea of her being the likely nominee either.
The campaign was simply too long to stay civil. We’ll never know what Obama would have done if he couldn’t overtake her, but we do know what happened inversely. While I don’t think blame is equal, it is shared. The fact there is this much bad blood is unfortunate.
Honestly, while there is a generational element, when you look at the Clinton/Obama fight it is between the old Senatorial machine (Daschle, Kennedy, Kerry, etc…) vs. the Clinton machine (with the Chicago machine thrown in for a bit of extra fun). And Obama is quite aggressively using his pull with the large donors to defund outfits he doesn’t agree with. Obama believes very strongly in transparent government, as far as I can tell, he’s put together a very powerful top-down integrated political machine where he doesn’t need local power brokers very much because he has a direct relationship with his most dedicated followers, but it is still a top-down organization, not down-up and it is still a machine.
This is profound. Thank you for thinking. Many (most?) of us are so strung out by this long internecine warring, we are left slack-jawed in knee-jerk reaction mode. (And the jawbone is connected to the knee-bone…)
I didn’t start out as one of the “anyone but Hillary” folks. I am not a Hillary hater. I am a Gore, Edwards, Obama person because that’s where my gut and what’s left of my brain led me. I didn’t get here because Obama people vilified Hillary. No. I’m not a total sheep. I continue to believe Hillary caved to her handlers and emerged as something other than what she really may be. A damn shame, actually. Ironically, the standard-bearer for feminism adopted the good ol’ boys strategies. The “why” of that may forever be a mystery. Well, until the inevitable flood of books tsunamis the bookstores.
I don’t know what we were supposed to do or say that we didn’t, but it seems we have become a disappointment here at FDL and elsewhere. Rats!
Thanks for a rather mild demonstration.
Ian -
I should have included -
neither candidate is progressive enough for me
they are indeed very similar on platforms
and hell yes, some of the on line vitriol was so f’ing far out of line
but that’s why I’m still a typist and you’re a blogger :D
I know that certainly is not in the spirit of unity, but how a “democratic” blog can focus all it’s energy on bringing down a democratic candidate is beyond me!
This is a great post Ian, and it is something we are going to need if we are going to get over the ugliness that doesn’t ever seem to stop.
I doubt that hate is the right word. I’m very disappointed in her. Some of her votes were way too Republican for me, her campaign was a mess (IMO) and she injected things into the race that never should have been there. She is a very bright woman and she screwed up badly and has filled any chance to ever be elected prez. The Clintons and the Bush family are now yesterday and I think the country will feel enormous relief when they all sink back into the shadows. Young people are the future now.
(bows) Konnichiwa, Wobbs
I’m not liberal or progressive.
I’m a revolutionary.
rev-o-lu-tion:
2.c: activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation.
rev-o-lu-tion-ary:
1.b: tending to or promoting revolution.
For me it’s always been about our government’s policies, domestic and foreign. I have an abhorance for the manipulation of the nation’s economy to enrich the few at the expense of the many added to an imperial foreign policy which seeks to control the resources and exploit the peoples of other countries.
That’s why I make every attempt to stay out of the partisanship of the Democratic presidential campaign.
I agree it was the proportionality of the responses in both camps. Everyone began to sound like Michelle Malkin.
war vote. I have a vajayjay so it certainly wasn’t vajayjay hate
Exactly. Neither is progressive. Neither is a good choice. The so-called progressive activists bloggers fell in lock step and touted an embarrassment of riches in our candidates. Yes, viva la no difference!
oooh me likey. I’m a revolutionist too. *g*
Wait, wait. I’m an Obama supporter, which does not automatically mean I’m part of “everyone” who hates Hillary. Don’t hate Hillary, matter of fact. Just haven’t been crazy about her campaigning. And yes to Twain, who speaks of eight years of rising rage via BushCo. I do think that has played into the level of vitriol.