We here in the blogosphere often rain contempt on the media for how they run in packs; for how they repeat the wisdom of the "village", a self anointed group of a few hundred key people who think that their opinion is the same as the opinions of America, which is why they constantly go on about what Americans want in ways that are completely disconnected from poll results or reality. The "center" to the village, is the consensus opinion of the Village.
We like to think we’re better than them. That we see through the BS, that we are more objective—that we’re not as insular or addicted to our predetermined storylines as they are. That we are independent and willing to strike out on our own, not addicted to the cover of the pack, not playing high-school games of in-groups and out, of dominance and hierarchy, of cool-kids and outcasts.
If only it were so. Oh, I suppose we aren’t quite as bad as them. There are a few more mavericks. There is more truth telling about certain things.
But when the pack decides on a storyline, we’re as good at sticking to it as they are and of refusing to see either contrary evidence or why the other side feels as it does as the media is.
This primary season has to have dispelled the myth of the objective blogosphere that doesn’t drink the kool-aid. If it hasn’t, it certainly should have. The majority of the blogosphere became pro-Obama and savagely so, so much so that many major bloggers will tell you with a straight face that nothing misogynistic has ever come from the Obama campaign. (For example, nothing like Jesse Jackson saying that Clinton only cries for her looks, not for blacks who lost everything in Katrina.)
A much smaller, but nonetheless vocal part of the blogosphere clustered into a few enclaves to represent the other side, with at least a couple blogs becoming the mirror of what Corrente likes to call "Clinton Derangement Syndrome." The pure visceral contempt poured out by many pro-Obama bloggers was matched and returned.
That loathing has become so ingrained after months of attacks on the fundamental character of both candidates (she’s fundamentally a racist southern cracker, he’s a misogynist empty suit, according to the most rabid supporters of either side) that at all of these blogs one can regularly hear the commenters, and on the diary sites, even front paged posts saying they would never vote for the other candidate. In the early months you’d hear it more from the Obama side, but of late, as it’s become clear that Obama was the strong favorite to win, it came more and more from Clinton’s supporters.
Now I’m no sweet disinterested observer. I have a preference, and it’s for Clinton. I’ve even defended her, being one of the few not firmly at one of the Clinton-blogs willing to come out swinging on her behalf when she was, in my opinion, ludicrously accused of staying in the nomination battle in hopes of Obama being assassinated. It was an odd accusation, because even if Clinton had stepped out of the nomination battle and then Obama had been assassinated, it was unthinkable that anyone but her would be nominated. I can’t think of any scenario in which the second place finisher who received almost 50% of the vote, wouldn’t have received the nod. Clinton didn’t need to stay in the nomination battle to be the nominee in such a scenario. It made less than no sense.
Bloggers pride themselves in somehow "not drinking the kool-aid". But for the past few months too many of them have acted like the worst members of the media pack. Whoever their candidate is can do no harm, and anything the opposing candidate done is spun in whatever way it can be read worse. Rezko is a corrupt bagman and Obama knew everything. Clinton is so stupid and evil that the only reason she’s staying in the race is in hopes of Obama being killed. Obama is a misogynistic jerk and his wife hates America. Clinton is personally racist and her husband is so racist he essentially a southern cracker, not the president who liked African-Americans so much he set up his office in Harlem.
And yet, I’m here to tell you that on most major issues, there isn’t a huge amount of sunlight between Clinton and Obama. Oh, there are places where there’s some difference. Clinton’s health care plan is universal, Obama’s is not. But neither are that progressive, neither is, say, "single payer". Obama’s telecom plan is better than Clinton’s. Clinton’s economic stimulus plan was slightly more progressive than Obama’s. (You might argue that. You would be proving my point at how little light there is between them.) Obama’s key economic advisers are Chicago School economists—guys who are essentially acolytes of Milton Friedman, the Republican icon. Clinton’s aren’t quite that bad, but they sure aren’t progressive.
Despite the fact that neither of them, on their actual records, is a progressive and the fact that their actual policy proposals are pretty similar to each other, the "progressive" blogosphere has been acting as if this is a battle which matters a great deal. It has acted as if the difference between Obama and Clinton is night and day, and that one of them (usually Obama, but sometimes Clinton) is so much better than the other one that it isn’t even close.
Not only is it close, but the differences are minor. Folks like Dodd and Kucinich, and to a lesser extent Edwards, who actually made a somewhat radical critique of what is wrong with America, aren’t in this fight anymore.
As the line runs about academia, the fight has been so vicious because so little is at stake.
Now none of this is to deny culpability exists in other places. Both the campaigns have pushed storylines they would have better left alone. The media has certainly been happy to spill endless ink on accusations of racism and misogyny and to assume the worst of both candidates.
But we were supposed to be better. More able to see through the BS. We were the ones who knew the war was wrong. We are the ones who slice and dice media bias on a daily basis.
And we drank the kool-aid to the lees, then went on a drunken spree screaming insults at the other side.
And all the anger, all the hatred, has had an effect. As Matt Stoller notes, late February 56% of white Boomer women liked Obama. Today, 43%. 13% loss. And 39% of them think that misogyny hurt Clinton badly. And they resent it and it has spilled over into what they think of the almost certain Democratic nominee for President: Barack Obama.
Way to keep our eye on the ball. So what if Obama loses the actual election, and we slice and dice the numbers, and it turns out that if just a few more white Boomer women, say, had voted for him, he would have won?
(The same argument could easily be made in reverse if Clinton had won, looking at African-Americans or 20-somethings. But she didn’t win.)
Part of the blame will belong to us. And honestly, to me, all of this has felt mostly like high-school pack politics. Too many bloggers, just like the media we despise, wanted to be part of the pack. Wanted to be on the "right" side with their peers and friends. Damn near 50% of Democratic voters went for Clinton in the primary, but you’d never know it online. The largest pro-Obama (and not shy about it, either) blogs dwarf the size of the largest pro-Clinton blogs. I doubt the pro-Clinton blogosphere is one-tenth the size of the pro-Obama blogosphere. It’s probably closer to one-twentieth.
Part of this is probably because "if it bleeds it leads". Many of the blogs supporting one side or the other have seen large increases in traffic. Not all have, mind you, but there certainly are blogs whose traffic has doubled from tossing out daily red meat.
The larger reason isn’t even as understandable as traffic. It’s just the instinct drilled into us that being out of step with your peer group is a really bad, and really dangerous, idea.
But that sort of group-think has combined with a self-reinforcing spiral of received truth to build to a crescendo of accusations against both sides (Racist! Sexist! Murderer!) that are going to be very hard to talk down from.
And the blogosphere, created in part to say "just put down the kool-aid" has become what it sought to end, just another part of the echo chamber, endlessly screaming horrible accusations and unable to see either the other side or the damage it was doing to the cause it claimed to believe in.
Related posts:
- Conservative Blogger Rick Moran Calls on the Right to Condemn “Crazies”, Sees Racism in Attacks on Obama
- GRITtv Live: Torturer in Chief? The Media Pick Pelosi Over Cheney
- Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, a Blue Dog, Stands Apart From The Pack
- Late Late Night FDL: The Rat Pack
- “W.W.J.P.” – What Would Jesus Pack?





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Hi Ian!
*waves*
((((Quaker girl))))
Hmmm have a bit of an issue with the construction of that phrase.
Terrific post, Ian thanks.
As you pointed out so well, vilifications of either candidate made it appear that the other one had a liberal/progressive record.
Only if you care to respond, I am interested in your opinion about Obama offering the Veep to Senator Clinton. I think that’s the best choice for Obama, the Democratic party, and the nation. If she doesn’t want it, fine, but at least Obama offered it to her.
Ian, what a thoughtful post! Quite timely, too.
I did not expect anything different from the blogosphere. Political blogs are usually written by fire-breathing partisans. When a blog writer takes a side on something/someone, they are going to be LOUD about it. It got uglier and uglier because of the length of the primary process. 1980 was ugly, but there was no Internet or cable TV. Plus, it didn’t last five months. To my mind, bloggers have acted just like bloggers. That’s why I love them.
Clinton Camp Says Concession Reports False
I’m sorry to be OT, this just broke about an our ago.
Ian a Clinton shrill!? I am *aghast!*
It has always been about the war vote for me. I came here because the poo flinging wasn’t as bad as it was over at other blogs but there were always some voices of reason trying to quell the seething masses.
The size of the respective pro-candidate blogs didn’t really matter as both(in terms of users and/or front page posters) could be equally nasty and full of hate (No Quarter vs Kos).
But I really do appreciate the post.
Wes Clark is pushing Gov. Kathy Sebelius.
sorry, I did not put the source for that – per Ben Smith on Politico.com
If she doesn’t want it, fine, but at least Obama offered it to her.
He has no choice but to at least make the offer if he wants to recover any of the more fervent HRC supporters. Many potential problems obviously, but also a huge potential upside. I hope she accepts the V.P. offer.
Fuck!!!!
why isn’t he advocating for Hillary?
Thanks, Ian. All of that needed to be said.
I just came for impeachment and all i got was this lousy primary.
I’d rather not have her as VP but it’s not my choice to make
I think it did matter, really. It shows how out of touch the blogosphere can get. Yes, the tenor was the same from the worst offenders, but the worst offenders on Obama’s side (vilifying Clinton) were literally talking to an audience 15 to 20 times larger than the Clinton side. Most bloggers don’t seem to get why so many people found Clinton a compelling candidate. I can explain the appeal of both candidates, it’s obvious to me. But most bloggers don’t seem to be able to.
Wes Clark is pushing Gov. Kathy Sebelius.
That would be the same Governor Sebelius who gave the second-most boring speech I ever heard after this year’s State of The Union? Feh.
(most boring award goes to Evan Bayh as the key-note speaker at the 200 Dem convention.)
And isn’t Wes Clarke a Hillary supporter? hmmm…
Do not agree. She would be terrible. We must get rid of all vestiges of the DLC. We must purge them as we would any vehicle that was spawned by Rove….the fact is (according to my wife who made up the fact) that Rove started the DLC along with clinton1 in an attempt ensure that the MIC would continue to own us. No clintons any more, none nada, nil and the same applies to bush.
v
I just have this gut feeling Hil is goin’ Indy.
I’d be absolutely floored if she did. She wouldn’t win the election, she’d be hated and McCain would win. There is no upside for her at all. Her die-hards may want her to, but no one else does.
A true liarman DLC operative
nomolos – could simply be last minute parsing and gamesmanship – believe her camp wants us to believe she is “suspending” her campaign and not conceding -
should be interesting bec Obama camp has been structuring their event tonight around her leaving
I wasn’t talking about target audience rather the tone.
I guess my decision isn’t based solely on the voting record but on who can best heal the country and get us on back on track.
As I said yesterday, let’s assume that all the candidates suck. The one who sucks the least for me is Obama. I do not buy into misogyny smears–look at Michelle!!
Oh and I think Kathleen Sebelius is probably a good governor but an uninspired choice for VP. Perhaps that’s what we want in a VP choice.
Thanks, Ian. I’ve been increasingly dismayed by the level of discourse in areas that I had thought were truly ‘fair and balanced.’ A teachable moment, cultivate a healthy level of skepticism.
After the vitriol, I’d be shocked if she is offered the Veep. Of course I was shocked that Edwards dropped out when he did …
However, I do believe Hillary as Health Secretary, guiding her most important goal of Universal Health Care would be an amazing footnote for a remarkable and resilient woman !
Well I came via other candidates that left the race (3rd time is the charm). But being that my whole life has been a presidency of Bush or Clinton, I wanted something different.
She would be terrible.
I’ll concede that she *could* be terrible.
But she could also be great, if she chooses to put party and country ahead of Hillary. She’s a player, and could get legislation moved. Obama should give her the V.P. offer, and package it with free rein to develop and push *her* health-care plan.
Your response is sincerely reassuring to me (no snark!) My hubby believes she’s too dialed in to the Dem party to do it, but sometimes you can get caught up in the whole effort and she’s surrounded by frankly kooky advisers (imho).
((( Ian )))
She’d also be damaging the legacy of the best President in the past 28 years …
Thanks, Ian. It’s going to take a lot of digesting to figure out what happened here. Your post is a really valuable start.
It sure hasn’t been the blogosphere I thought I signed up for.
Never going to happen. She’ll campaign to the bitter end; I don’t think she’s psychologically capable of leaving a contest before she’s actually lost it. But once Obama has the delegate count to win, she’ll jump the net and congratulate him.
I don’t know what her more loony supporters will do, though.
True. I don’t see her going to SCOTUS. Constitutional law wasn’t her thing.
Thanks for this post. After spending the past 3 years blogging, I have distanced myself from the blogs I used to enjoy. I have “STFU”. Really has saddened me to watch the downhill slide as republican style attacks against Hillary Clinton became the “kewl kids” talking points. It has made me sick to watch progressives tear apart the Clintons. I’ve reached the point where all I can say is fuck em all & leave six for pallbearers.
I’m progressive and never tore the Clintons apart. I just didn’t agree or like her war vote and her war mongering wrt Iran and the middle East. That is my criticism and I will never hold back on any dem crossing that line.
Do not discount the work of the Neocons and the MSM to stir up all these controversies, to disparage the Dems and the blogosphere.
The unity among progressive blogs to fight for FISA, telecom immunity, etc. is scaring the bejeezus out of the traditional power brokers.
The Clinton’s were never progressive and some of us loathed them long before this campaign. Nothing in this campaign has given me any reason to change my mind. . .nothing.
My problem with the whole ‘my candidate is on the right hand of God and your candidate teh sucks’ is that it puts things in an ‘either/or’ position. Either Sen. Clinton is The Great Satan” or she’s not. Either Sen. Obama is The Great Light of the World, or he’s not. Let’s give two professionals some credit here. She could be the greatest whatever since Eleanor Roosevelt…or she could come up against the same BS. Obama could possibly be the greatest ‘evah’ – or if we don’t do our jobs as people at the ground level, he could end up as the Black Jimmy Carter. I have always said – let’s keep our eyes on The Beast – the Republican Party/Bush/Cheney.
OK could… if she were the vp she could be a disaster, she could continue to put the clintonistas ahead of party and country, she could continue her corporate genuflections, she could fuck up health care …again, she could throw the cigar man out on his ear, she could, on the other hand, change to a Democrat.
actually I dislike the word progressive. I’m liberal.
Amen
It sure hasn’t been the blogosphere I thought I signed up for.
Now *that* would make for an interesting conversation. How many days do you think it would take? *g*
Ian, thanks for this deep and thoughful analysis. You learned me.
Ian: Amen! This needed to be said.
As someone who thinks highly of both Obama and Clinton, I have been very disappointed in the tone and quality of the discussions within the progressive blog community.
It didn’t have to be this way. When all is said and done, I think Kos is going to have a lot to answer for.
And another thing, I was told long ago that Jane, Christy, Scarcrow and crew were “bloggers” and the rest of us were “commenters.”
Thom Hartmann says that HRC’s campaign has told the workers that they have one more ticket on the campaign, and that they have to the end of the month to submit their final expense vouchers.
It’s over, folks. HRC might not formally withdraw tonight, but she’s suspending her campaign for-sure.
BC
Socialist here
Yeah, a few of her advisers are pretty bad. It’s one of the best arguments for Obama, imo. OTOH, some of the worst ones did get kicked to the curb.
Hey, the site is tossing a set of code errors:
What’s up with this?
BC
Well, that would be just freaking peachy wouldn’t it…
It’s been doing it repeatedly all day long. ignore
Actually Ian maybe The Blog Pack Vents could be more accurate. Just sayin’
For what? Does that mean Jerome is in deep poo as well?
Tone-deaf John McCain to give a prime-time speech from New Orleans tonight.
Smooth move there, Johnny Mac. Everybody in the country wants to follow the Dem Primary come to a head, and will be spending every moment of having to watch McCain thinking “STFU, and get off my teevee”.
What a maroon.
Yes, Ian, you’re right in your fundamental point: lefties or righties, vociferous ignorance is well distributed.
(Incidentally, I’m quite opposed to Hillary for POTUS; I dealt substantively with her husband in the ’90’s, and I think she is equally bright but morally baseless).
I’m quite left, but I believe in people. I ardently spent ten years, including on the California Democratic Party Executive Committee, trying to bridge the gap from my SF Bay Area base, and I finally gave up.
I read lefty blogs almost obsessively, because I’m always optimistic, but even around here, on Firedoglake, I’m only reminded of why I got out of politics.
Gracias
There were places that didn’t drink either side’s kool-aid. Hopefully I’ll be forgiven for noting FDL was one of them. Jane was right to make that decision. Duncan maintained his cool as well. It’s not all bad, it’s just a reminder that people are people and that we aren’t as different as we thought we’d be. We can be spun. We can stampede in a herd. We can lose our heads while all about are losing theirs.
But some didn’t.
And even in some that did, well, at least most of them did it for passion and belief. Their motives, I think, were usually very good. It’s just that sometimes that isn’t enough.
And blogs are “outrage machines.” Which is fine, there’s been so much to be outraged over that the media has yawned at, that it was needed. But it can spiral out of control, and this primary I think it did a number of times, damaging Democratic presidential chances in the fall — no matter who had won – Obama or Clinton. If Clinton were winning right now, we’d be shaking in our boots about how to contain the African-American and 20-something damage.
New Orleans as a backdrop, to remind us of the Repugs abject failure there …
… why does McCain hate
freedomNeocons ?Hey, you don’t suppose McCain is finally going to put some pressure on his good pal Rape Gurney Joe to do some hearings about the Katrina fiasco?
Me neither.
I don’t know, Ian, but this seems to be one of your most fact-free posts, which is surprising from a guy who always seems to have facts to back up his argument. And, while I understand you feel strongly that Hillary is the better choice, in your rush to assign blame you overlook why many people–myself included–voted for Obama.
I started out as a Clinton supporter. Well, I started out as an Edwards supporter, but knew he didn’t have a shot, and I figured illary would win the thing going away. I had no problem with that: she’s my Senator, and I like the job she’s done. I voted for Bill twice, and despite having some probles with his politics, I felt pretty sure that Hillary would make a good president.
But something happened: Hillary lost. And it was the way in which she lost which caught my attention. Instead of paying attention to the radical changes in the Democratic party in the past few years Hillary, and the cadre of Bill Clinton-era advisors around here, ran a campaign right out of the the 1996 Clinton playbook. No internet presence, no internet fund raising, no ground organization, no acknowledgment of the 50 State Strategy. When contrased with Obama’s campaign, which did all that and more, I could come to only one conclusion: if Hillary won the nomination, she would run the exact campaign the Democrats ran in 2000 and 2004. She would run a little to the left of McCain, ignore most of the country and bet the farm on Ohio, Pennsylania and Florida, and she would lose.
That thought terrified me, and I am not being dramatic. Not only can’t the country stand four more years of George Bush (which is what McCain offers) but even a Clinton victory looked, to me, like a return to the bad old days of the DLC, with the states ignored, the local Democratic organizations left to wither on the vine and the only metric of success being that a Democrat holds the White House.
So I, and others, faced either the prospect of a Democratic loss or a hollow Democratic victory. Given I’ve worked my ass off for the last couple years doing my little part in rebuilding a progressive, vibrant, victorious Democratic party, I am not about to hand the reins off to someone who looks to et all that fall by the wayside, even in victory.
As to the vitriol sometimes expressed by supporters on either side? Human nature. My best friend is a Clinton supporter, and it hasn’t caused any friction between us.
doggone it Ian, have read your post twice now – it’s a thoughtful one
it pains me to disagree with you – but from here it looks like an awful lot of HRC’s problems in left blogistan can not be simply ascribed to Hillary haters –
her campaign’s tactics, statements, hell, gaffes went against the very grain of progressive thinking again and again – “obliterating iran” is just one of many examples
personally, and yeah it’s all about me /s – I was ready to support someone claiming to have been tested again and again by the vast right wing conspiracy – but she couldn’t beat back an insurgency within her own party, how in the hell was she gonna silence the Mighty Wurlitzer ?!?!
That would be true if the perception was that the nomination was stolen from him and given to her, not sour grapes because she won fairly.
Yeah, venting is the word that came to my mind. We’ve been waiting a loooong time to give bush the boot, too long. I think partof the passionate venting is to let some steam off.
Agree.
IMHO, she’s just trying to squeeze out every vote she can from South Dakota and Montana.
WTF is wrong with those people at NoQuarter. Weren’t they supposed to be a liberal site? Or am I off base with that? Supposed democrats shilling for McCain on a blog owned by someone with a CIA background…
*adjusts tinfoil hat*
Thank you, Jane, for keeping FDL straight — when other sites descended into mud flinging tribalism.
For the record, Hillary was always my last choice, but not because she is a woman — it’s her last name and scoundrel husband that turns me off. I became a Pelosi ‘07 partisan after the 2006 midterms, but that didn’t go anywhere, sad to say.
In the end, I became an enthusiastic Obama partisan, because his campaign has the potential to change the political landscape for a generation.
While it would be great to have a woman President, the odds were better that Hillary would unite the GOP in opposition than build a transformative coalition.
Will he serve cake?
.
.
Ian, thanks for this post. And Jane, to your comment about the blogosphere, we all have to reflect and re-unite. There’s much work to be done.
It’s been like being on the sidelines of what was supposed to be an amicable divorce which descended into acrimony and bile on both sides. I’ll own whatever I added to that. Because ultimately we can’t let our differences be irrecon*sigh*lable. We gotta do better for the children.
Hey, you don’t suppose McCain is finally going to put some pressure on his good pal Rape Gurney Joe to do some hearings about the Katrina fiasco?
ummm – no.
Figured out why they’re pals, though. McCain’s tone-deaf – Lieberman’s politically deaf.
Both are dumb. Deaf and dumb – joined at the hip – match made in
HeavenD.C. A match like that could only have been made in D.C.Marion and dosido –
bet she doesn’t want to spend the money in an indy effort – plus ya need a ground game for that and as prev noted, it’s not her forte
This was akin to my perception. The feeling I got out of the Clinton/Obama split was much more “establishment Democrats” versus “younger Democrats.” I can’t speak to the various accusations of sexism/racism – while I was aware of the events reported in the news, I never considered them as significant indicators of what the actual campaigns believed. Mostly they seemed to be manifestations of the frustration and/or exhaustion of the speakers, while the most deliberate rages seemed to be projection and disappointment.
I’ve long recognized that while they differed on supporting the misadventure in Iraq, Clinton and Obama are otherwise centrist Democrats.
The biggest difference for me was that Clinton seems to represent the Democratic party infrastructure more than does Obama, and I have a lot of problems with the DCCC and the people running the Democratic party right now. My hope is that an Obama presidency would clear more deadwood out of the Democratic party offices than would a Clinton presidency.
But you know what? That’s a choice between chocolate sprinkles and chocolate dipped on the ice cream cone: we CANNOT have a McCain presidency, and I’d support Rahm Emanuel for president over McCain if it came down to it (and I pray hard that it never does).
Beyond that, I suspect there is a segment of devoted, activist, feminist Democrats who have been waiting their whole lives for the chance of a female president, and I empathize with their deep disappointment that Yet Another Man (somewhat darker than previously) is going to be President. That must be very disappointing.
But any feminist who votes for McCain out of that disappointment will be denying his or her own granddaughters the right to control their own reproduction, among other things. I hope there is sufficient time between now and November to process that disappointment and pull the right lever in the booth.
1,862 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Ian Welsh and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I find the apology for the M*Clinton campaign inadequacies, it’s failed strategy, and it’s multitude of contemptible actions such as usin’ racist dog whistles, crying sexism, elevating McCain over a Democrat and drapin’ herself in RFK’s bloody shirt typical of what we in this country have come to expect from them. Nothing is ever M*Clinton’s fault and anyway they did it too!! Brother Welsh, is it possible that the “pack attack” behavior may very well be the product of the candidate’s own behavior, attitudes and politics or lack of them? It isn’t as though people haven’t had a whole lot of experience with Mr. and Mrs. Bill.
Even in defeat there is nothing graceful or classy about either of the M*Clinton’s behavior and they are makin every attempt to see to it that Obama and the Democratic Party don’t win in November…this also is not new, ask Al Gore or John Kerry.
No more pathetic apologies for either of these despicable and hopefully retired political entrepreneurs.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND LET’S LET ‘EM BOTH JEST FADE AWAY!!
Seems to me that all this anger comes from almost 8 years of rage at the present administration and real fear for our country and our freedoms. The hope is that we will all realize that and not destroy what we have tried so hard to build.
I don’t think Hillary will be the VP. She will probably stay in the Senate where she can be very effective – if she wants to.
As noted, the campaign did some boneheaded things that were worthy of criticism (as did the Obama campaign, as far as that goes). But really, so many of them were blown completely out of proportion. The loudness of the screams did not match the magnitude of the sins. And again, I simply cannot look at Obama and argue that he is substantially more progressive than Clinton with a straight face. He just isn’t. It’s not like one of them is Feingold, there isn’t a liberal or progressive in the race.
Calling Clinton Evil and “the worst person in the world”, as one front paged HuffPo poster did (and that’s the largest liberal blog, btw) was not productive and is incredibly insulting to the nearly 50% of the primary Democratic electorate who voted for her. If one truly believes she’s that evil, and that the 50% of the most liberal people in the US voted for a fundamentally evil woman… the mind boggles (and since, again, as Obama’s record isn’t substantially different from hers when the rubber hits the road on votes, it makes me wonder about kool-aid.)
Criticism levels much match sin-levels. Clinton (and Obama on the Clinton blogs) were treated with the level of vituperation that Cheney and Bush receive.
I hope that Hillary is able to serve where she will be of most service and the most effective (VP, Cabinet, etc.)
Funny there was no whining about the DLC a couple of years ago when everyone was madly in love with Al Gore! I used to come here and try to argue that Gore is not a liberal and that he was a founding member of the DLC, but I was shouted down by all the Gore lovers.
So this DLC line is a bunch of baloney.
So what is the real reason everyone hates Hillary so very much? Let’s see, what could it be????
Think think think think think…
Well, most of the blosphere is progressive and progressives are perceiving Obama as more progressive than Hillary. I’m aware they’ve voted pretty much the same and have similar stands on issues, but Obama has packaged himself as Hope and a lot of people are excited about that. Personally, I’m progressive and I’m for Obama. Why? Once Edwards dropped out I was undecided, then when Hillary said McCain would make a better commander in chief than Obama, I went over to Obama. That statement, to me, told me she put her winning ahead of the Democratic Party and it sent me right to Obama. I do not expect Obama to be a progressive, far from it.
Hi wobblybits! I hope we’re still friends! :-)
Obama has faced racism as pervasive as any sexism Hillary has had to face. Yet, in an illustration of the contrasts between the two, Obama rose above his “handicap”, while Hillary used hers to manipulate voters.
That is why Hillary loses this nomination.
I understand your point. I personally hate getting emotional about politicians. Its like believing the melodrama around pro-wrestling. I decided against Clinton when she voted for the war powers act. I thought it a cynical ”triangulation” looking forward to her run. Then there is oligarchy issues as well. But I had no problem with the idea of her being the likely nominee either.
The campaign was simply too long to stay civil. We’ll never know what Obama would have done if he couldn’t overtake her, but we do know what happened inversely. While I don’t think blame is equal, it is shared. The fact there is this much bad blood is unfortunate.
Honestly, while there is a generational element, when you look at the Clinton/Obama fight it is between the old Senatorial machine (Daschle, Kennedy, Kerry, etc…) vs. the Clinton machine (with the Chicago machine thrown in for a bit of extra fun). And Obama is quite aggressively using his pull with the large donors to defund outfits he doesn’t agree with. Obama believes very strongly in transparent government, as far as I can tell, he’s put together a very powerful top-down integrated political machine where he doesn’t need local power brokers very much because he has a direct relationship with his most dedicated followers, but it is still a top-down organization, not down-up and it is still a machine.
This is profound. Thank you for thinking. Many (most?) of us are so strung out by this long internecine warring, we are left slack-jawed in knee-jerk reaction mode. (And the jawbone is connected to the knee-bone…)
I didn’t start out as one of the “anyone but Hillary” folks. I am not a Hillary hater. I am a Gore, Edwards, Obama person because that’s where my gut and what’s left of my brain led me. I didn’t get here because Obama people vilified Hillary. No. I’m not a total sheep. I continue to believe Hillary caved to her handlers and emerged as something other than what she really may be. A damn shame, actually. Ironically, the standard-bearer for feminism adopted the good ol’ boys strategies. The “why” of that may forever be a mystery. Well, until the inevitable flood of books tsunamis the bookstores.
I don’t know what we were supposed to do or say that we didn’t, but it seems we have become a disappointment here at FDL and elsewhere. Rats!
Thanks for a rather mild demonstration.
Ian -
I should have included -
neither candidate is progressive enough for me
they are indeed very similar on platforms
and hell yes, some of the on line vitriol was so f’ing far out of line
but that’s why I’m still a typist and you’re a blogger :D
I know that certainly is not in the spirit of unity, but how a “democratic” blog can focus all it’s energy on bringing down a democratic candidate is beyond me!
This is a great post Ian, and it is something we are going to need if we are going to get over the ugliness that doesn’t ever seem to stop.
I doubt that hate is the right word. I’m very disappointed in her. Some of her votes were way too Republican for me, her campaign was a mess (IMO) and she injected things into the race that never should have been there. She is a very bright woman and she screwed up badly and has filled any chance to ever be elected prez. The Clintons and the Bush family are now yesterday and I think the country will feel enormous relief when they all sink back into the shadows. Young people are the future now.
(bows) Konnichiwa, Wobbs
I’m not liberal or progressive.
I’m a revolutionary.
rev-o-lu-tion:
2.c: activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation.
rev-o-lu-tion-ary:
1.b: tending to or promoting revolution.
For me it’s always been about our government’s policies, domestic and foreign. I have an abhorance for the manipulation of the nation’s economy to enrich the few at the expense of the many added to an imperial foreign policy which seeks to control the resources and exploit the peoples of other countries.
That’s why I make every attempt to stay out of the partisanship of the Democratic presidential campaign.
I agree it was the proportionality of the responses in both camps. Everyone began to sound like Michelle Malkin.
war vote. I have a vajayjay so it certainly wasn’t vajayjay hate
Exactly. Neither is progressive. Neither is a good choice. The so-called progressive activists bloggers fell in lock step and touted an embarrassment of riches in our candidates. Yes, viva la no difference!
oooh me likey. I’m a revolutionist too. *g*
Wait, wait. I’m an Obama supporter, which does not automatically mean I’m part of “everyone” who hates Hillary. Don’t hate Hillary, matter of fact. Just haven’t been crazy about her campaigning. And yes to Twain, who speaks of eight years of rising rage via BushCo. I do think that has played into the level of vitriol.
I may regret this, but…
For me, it was several things. 1) I refused to vote for one more installment of the Bush Clinton Clinton Bush Bush saga; 2) dpny @64 said it beautifully; 3) you are who you surround yourself with…Ickes and McAuliff–’nuff said; 4) I refused to relive the “Clinton Drama”–it is time for a new generation of leaders.
show text is not working for me. fyi.
It’s hate. I know hate when I see it and I am very put off by it.
If it was just that the overwhelming number of progressives were against her that would be OK. But that’s not what this is. It’s hate.
still some hiccups at the Lake
a few years ago many of us here did not understand the true nature of the DLC, some of us were clueless fucks (that would be me) who thought it actually meant Leadership, and not some K street portal
some of us got our edumacation right here – and are eternally grateful for it:D
Oh, and Ian, very thoughtful post.
Jane, you and Christy and Scarecrow and the rest of your team are to be commended. You really have succeeded in keeping this place one where people can carry on conversations. Now, there have been moments where people don’t want to actually converse, and that causes challenges…
and when I hard refresh I get total weirdness. error type messages.
I realize that not every Obama supporter is a Hillary hater.
The haters know who they are.
Okay. you personally know that an overwhelming number of progressives hate her. It couldn’t be that she voted for a war that the progressives were against. No,it was personal.
I have to admit to being anger challenged lately and I am really trying to stop.
Did someone say Revolution ?
Blogging with knives?
I was and still am angry about the war. That won’t change because Iraqis and our soldiers are still being killed and physically/mentally scarred for life.
I think the “anger” comes from fear. Fear that the Repubs will somehow continue in office. Fear that if the wrong candidate is chosen…the Repubs will somehow continue in office, etc. Fear that the country is not hearing the truth. Fear that a lot of the country will vote based on spin and lies.
All that stuff fuels the emotions and comes off as hate…but it’s really fear.
A very good point. Thank you for a magnificent piece. The blogosphere needs to examine what happened here.
Writing on the internet is about broadcasting, not listening. I think we all feel empowered to speak with the same authority as Rush Limbaugh and bloggers and blog-responders are using the internet in that way. While I am surprised that Obama has such a wide lead in reaching internet viewers vs Clinton, I don’t see why that necessarily means his or Clinton’s supporters are kool-aid drinkers so much a kool-aid spewers. And now we have kool-aid sewers.
Besides that there were many, many who for whatever reason did not like her from the beginning of the Clinton administration. I never figured our why. I thought she was a good first lady who worked hard at the job. I liked her a lot and wanted her to do well. I am very disappointed.
This really works: Meditation
Take 10 calming breaths, inhaling and exhaling fully and visualize stress and toxins leaving your body.
Then, take 10 calming breaths, inhaling and exhaling fully and visualize pure, healing energy filling your entire being.
(If you’re doing this with your eyes closed, take 5 calming breaths and s-l-o-w-l-y open your eyes)
You betch’um, Red Ryder.
I agree. The reason that “Obama” blogs were so much bigger than Clinton ones were was because Clinton’s outreach to the netroots was next to non-existent and sucked.
I would say too that many progressives myself included were calling her a DINO long before she announced her candidacy. Obama too shows a lot of DINO characteristics but he also shows some flashes of being open to other possibilities. With the DINO, corporatist, DLC, triangulating Clinton I have seen not even a glimmer of anything progressive.
I would say that a lot of us have been keeping our eye on the larger goal of defeating McCain and the Republicans. It is what has frustrated so many of us about Clinton’s continued presence in the race. Since Super Tuesday in early March some 3 months ago, it was clear that Clinton was going to lose this thing. Yes, she could make it close but the underlying arithmetic never changed and, in fact, over time went increasingly against her. During this time, Clinton’s principal success was in driving up Obama’s negatives. Her campaign has largely been a diversion. What has been lost is time to focus our and the nation’s attention on the real McCain and the bankruptcy moral, political, and intellectual of Republicans in general. Clinton’s continued presence has done a disservice to us all. It introduced in the code language of “white” working class voters and the egregious pronouncements of Bill Clinton and Geraldine Ferraro. It resurrected the issue of misogyny, a true political oddity since Clinton basically ran away from this issue in the first part of her campaign and only came back to it when that pesky math continued to go against her. Now after having engaged in a scorched earth campaign where she put her career above the nation’s needs, we are supposed to make nice. Well, Ian, as I said above many of us have been looking at the big picture and how Clinton has been distracting from it for some time now, so fine let us welcome her back into the fold. Just don’t ask me to act stupid and not notice the damage she has done.
Blogosphere is a collective term encompassing all blogs and their interconnections. It is the perception that blogs exist together as a connected community (or as a collection of connected communities) or as a social network.
It’s a perception, there is no entity that can examine anything.
Thanks for a thoughful post, Ian, and thanks to Jane and the front pagers and FDL’s many regular commenters for keeping things relatively placid here at the ‘Lake. I began this campaign as an Edwards supporter, because he was saying the things I believed needed to be said about foreign and domestic policies. I was delighted that the Dems could attract such a strong field, and even more delighted to see the weakness of the Republican candidates [AKA “nutthin’ but white guys”]. I was proud of both Obama and Clinton: finally an African American and a woman who were real contenders, in my lifetime.
But when Edwards withdrew, I had to make a choice. And like several other commenters in this thread, Clinton’s vote to authorize the war in Iraq and to authorize retaliation against Iran were deciding factors against her. I understand the dilemma she faced in 2002: vote against authorization and face criticism that a woman couldn’t be tough enough to vote for war. And I understand the dilemma she faced in 2006-2007: to repudiate her vote, as Edwards did, would open up the criticism that she escaped by her original vote, criticism that she could make the tough decisions. But her vote for the Iran authorization confirmed for me the fact that Clinton was more hawk than I could ever vote for.
I am heartened by the team that Obama has put together. I believe that he will be a great foreign policy president.
I continue to believe that Hillary Clinton could and should have a long career in the Senate. Like Ted Kennedy, she has a great ability to work across the aisle to craft legislation that can make a real difference in people’s lives.
Thank you very much for this post. You have articulated some things I have been mulling over the last little while.
I’ve spent some time over the past couple of days on some of the blogs that have strongly supported one of the two Dem candidates. It was chilling. It was like what I remember of grade school playground politics, only more so.
I think it would be a good idea for bloggers to dial back the self-congratulation – some of the best blogs in their finer moments do some good work. But after some of the stuff I read last night, I sort of despaired about the human condition.
Fisk says it best, I think, in The Great War for Civilisation:
War is not about glory. War is about killing.
.
Welcome to politics.
“. . . I’d support Rahm Emanuel for president. . .”
Great. Thanks for the nightmares!
I understand that but the rest of us get lumped in with that group.
Thank you Ian Welsh for an insightful article. I have said before I wish only the best for FDL and its contributors because in the heat of the moment they have worked to bring the basic truth to light even when the posters were less than civil. I have cut many of my RSS feeds because of this rancor and transparent ambition of ego driven bloggers. I do not know what I will do in November. I feel the candidates we elected in 2006 have failed to meet the criteria we expected when we elected them. We are still in a deadly war that was based on lies and our constitution is in shreds.
One thing I am certain of is that we as citizens cannot go back to the silence of the last eight years. We need to personally demand accountability from our elected officials. If any of this is going to work it will require the voters to continue involvement in many issues long past the November outcome.
I saw Lord of The Flies when I was 10 … human nature bereft of higher consciousness has always been thus …
Rastafari !!!
Mrs Greenspan say a wave of superdelegates is fixin to break over DC.
If one were not to look at all the other, logical, reasons to oppose clinton2 and the DLC. Nafta, war, war, war, and all the people she has been manufactured by and war, war, war. I suppose one is only left with one reason, hate. So if one were not able to accept logic then hate seems like an alternative.
Piggy
That is why I am self-employed and don’t do groups.
No lumping allowed :)
exactly.
Hugh, I link your comment with the point that LS makes above about anger. The longer that Mrs. Clinton has continued has, for me anyway, increased my frustration and fear that her efforts to damage the eventual winner of the Democratic nomination (not her) will weaken him against McCain and the Republicans. Weaken him unnecessarily. Self-inflicted wounds, as Dems are so prone to commit.
So, fear/frustration translates into anger.
Ja !
Emancipate yourself from mental slavery … sing it, Brother Marley !
“I would say that a lot of us have been keeping our eye on the larger goal of defeating McCain and the Republicans.”
True, and this is my stance. My priorities are 1) a strong, progressive Democratic party, 2) a strong, progressive, Democratic Congress and 3) a Democratic president. They are in that order because I believe that is the order which can lead to the most real, progressive, liberal change in our ountry.
irie
“there’s only one race. . . “
especially lumpy oatmeal (ewwww) *g*
and what of tonight’s staging ?
does anyone have schedules for the respective camp’s events ?
This is a fantastic post Ian!!! Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and great writing!
crikey !
The “MSM’rs” at MSNBC are on it right now. My man Chuck Todd wants to know this is about HER?
ya know Brother Petro – that is one of my desert island cuts :D
check out the one with Ziggy and the Chieftains
i don’t know about times only locations
I think you meant, liberal revolutionist…
I like that.
They will probably have a special wing in the camps for the liberal revolutionists.
See ya there.
Ian, I notice that you say absolutely nothing about any foreign policy or security issue. I would agree with you that not much separates the candidates on domestic policy; I’d even grant you that Clinton’s health care reform proposal is marginally superior. But for me, the differences on foreign policy are absolutely critical. It’s not just that Clinton was wrong on Iraq. It’s that she thinks it’s a good thing to do to gratuitously threaten to obliterate Iran, multiple times, and that she’s signed on to proposals to make such a war more likely. Now, perhaps she doesn’t sincerely feel that way, but thinks that as a woman she’s required to demonstrate her toughness. But if anything, that’s worse, as it means that she can be manipulated into starting more wars.
And can you please retire the phrase “drink the kool-aid”? You do know the origin of it, don’t you? To apply it to Obama supporters implies that they are committing mass suicide, as Jim Jones’ followers did in Guyana.
“when Hillary said McCain would make a better commander in chief than Obama, I went over to Obama. That statement, to me, told me she put her winning ahead of the Democratic Party and it sent me right to Obama.”
Imagine the uproar had Obama said that about Hillary.
It’s bad enough to give the pugs a great talking point but what is really appalling is what it tells discloses about her judgement.
Anyone who knows anything of his labile character and would approve of bomb bomb bomb McCain as commander in chief is seriously lacking in common sense.
But after some of the stuff I read last night, I sort of despaired about the human condition.
Don’t know whether you’re talking about FDL or some other blogs, but here’s how I read what has occurred here in some of the more “spirited” threads – reconciliation necessarily means that there was an earlier fight.
I get the feeling – here at least, that most of the worst is over, and everyone has had his or her say. It’s time to move on, and I get the feeling that it has begun.
Thanks for that clarification, I found it very enlightening. I would prefer a more progressive architecture and candidate than we’re going to end up with. Do you see this outcome as something that will shake up the entrenched interests? Or solidify them?
A quick note, and I think most bloggers will back me up on this: blog outreach from the Clintons was not worse than the Obama campaign. Honest. In fact the Obama campaign had the /worst/ blog outreach of any of the top 5 or so campaigns. By far. Obama did some very good internet outreach, but it was mostly through things like facebook, not blogs (and they didn’t start the facebook thing either, but they took it over.)
Does anyone think that we can win in November without both of the two remaining candidates on the ticket? Each candidate seems (to me) to have made themselves indispensable to the other.
so true. which is why it is rather amusing to watch all the strident mutual denunciations.
really, there are only corporate controlled, triangulating, pandering politicians in the race. None of them will end the illegal, immoral travesty of the Iraq occupation, and are all on the same page as Dick Cheney when it comes to the illusory ‘threat’ from Iran.
They may be fractionally better in some areas than the hobgoblin the (R)’s nominate, but neither Clinton or Obama is a candidate of real change – thats just audacious hype for those in the cheap seats.
To have real influence with the next Prez, you need to pony up the big bucks, like Big Pharma, Wall Street, the insurance combine, and the so-called ‘Defense’ industry have.
Money talks, and ‘progessives’ can be contemptuously taken for granted, because of faithful devotion to the Axiom of total support for the Least Worst.
When the USAF rains down destruction on the people of Iraq under a (D) president, what will the Progressive blogosphere do?
probably relay talking points handed out by the White House PR apparatus, thats my guess – like about how high tech smart bombs never miss, all the casualties posthumously become ‘terrists’, you know the drill.
Great insight, thanks.
hey kidz -
Blue Texan is upstairs – will she or wont she ?
Obama is coming to Twin Cities (MN) for an event with doors opening at 7:00 p.m. at the Xcel Center, where the Buslicans will hold their convention in September (urgh).
See ya there. But what if I’m a liberal socialist leaning revolutionary? Do I get my own corner of the outdoor cage?
I doubt there are any tickets left at this point…
The differences between Obama and Clinton’s Iraq withdrawal proposal are infintesimal. Clinton’s rhetoric is harsh and she voted for the war, but Obama hardly led on getting out of Iraq. The second he was in the Senate he acted like a centrist dem, not a war opposer and his actual voting record, as opposed to his rhetoric, is nearly identical to Clinton’s when it comes to the Iraq war. Again, he ain’t Feingold. Yup, he’s better on foreign affairs, no question. But only by degree. The only semi-serious candidate to suggest a quick and full pullout from Iraq wasn’t named Obama (or Clinton.)
Why do you think that was? Not only Obama but the other candidates as well.
Uh, 7:00 p.m. CDT
I hope that isn’t the case. i really don’t want Hillary as VP
No tickets. Y’all come. First come first served, supposedly anyway. I’m headin’ out before long to queue up. Why not?
I think a little differently, This is an open forum. Wil Rogers might of had an interesting comment on the human element as Mark Twain. We still have great assest displayed here and much info not found on MSM.
Ian I like your economics and your personal philosophy. When your up I get happy. I do detect your dissapointment in this criticism. In the ruff and tumble of American politics this is reality.
I believe in American Individualism and avoid the pack mentality. At some point in politivs you have to make alliances and my friend Dennis couldn’t get enough traction to accomplish that. Dodd was more sucessfull with his anti telecon immunity debate. My man Edwards did not get the troops he needed. This blog is like a houseful of kids at a family reunion gettin rowdy.
The primary/caucus thing is so flawed it invites the bickering…you put your money on the table and get whacked for your effort.
Like a barroom brawl almost anything goes. This has been a turbulent 8 years with political trauma at every turn. Lot of hurt feeling. Lot of folks got hammered. Can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
Bottom line more dems than ever are in it and less republicans.
This to will pass.
Yes, the kool aid reference have always bothered me. I lived in SF when the murders/suicides occurred and I worked at Mt. Zion Hospital and meet many of the surviving family members. Whole communities were destroyed.
Not to take anything from Ziggy but I grew up watching Bob Marley and he lived his words … a shame he had to abuse drugs and leave us so early …
opted to delete my comments and move along upsatirs.
I’ll let ya hang out with me and if ya act revolutionary enough I might let ya wave the big red flag. As long as ya promise not to hit anybody with the pvc flagstaff.
just what we need. another fucking lieberman!!!!
That should read “has always bothered me”. Dyslexics Untied!!!!!
He died from cancer…of the foot…not drugs..I think.
I was talking about some other blogs – though there have been some rough days here as well. Tone was very Harriet Christian-like and invective and disregard for facts… well, it was stunning. I’ve mostly avoided that sort of blog, but felt I needed to do a little research.
In July 1977, Marley was found to have acral lentiginous melanoma, a form of malignant melanoma, in a football wound on his right hallux (big toe). Marley refused amputation, because of the Rastafari belief that the body must be “whole”:
“ Rasta no abide amputation. I don’t allow a man to be dismantled. ”
—From the biography Catch a Fire
Marley may have seen medical doctors as samfai (tricksters, deceivers). True to this belief Marley went against all surgical possibilities and sought out other means that would not break his religious beliefs. He also refused to register a will, based on the Rastafari belief that writing a will is acknowledging death as inevitable, thus disregarding the everlasting (or everliving, as Rastas say) character of life.
Collapse and treatment
The cancer then metastasized to Marley’s brain, lungs, liver, and stomach. After playing two shows at Madison Square Garden as part of his fall 1980 Uprising Tour, he collapsed while jogging in NYC’s Central Park. The remainder of the tour was subsequently cancelled.
Bob Marley played his final concert at the Stanley Theater in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on September 23, 1980. The live version of “Redemption Song” on Songs of Freedom was recorded at this show.[6] Marley afterwards sought medical help from Munich specialist Josef Issels, but his cancer had already progressed to the terminal stage
And such is life.
I’m of the yoga camp that believe drug abuse will manifest in the form of fatal diseases in those not predisposed to them otherwise … there are many other yoga teacher who trumpet drugs as a way to higher consciousness but that has not been my experience (seeing others who abuse drugs).
Some of the campaigns had exceptional outreach. I’d put the Dodd and Edwards campaigns at the top of the list, but the Clinton folks have also been great in terms of getting information back to us a lot of the time if and when we asked for specifics or a statement, etc. There hasn’t been a time that I can recall where I had a question on specifics and Peter Daou or someone else at Clinton’s blog outreach hasn’t been willing to work with me to the extent they could on the issue.
There are individuals on the Obama team who have been good with me — not so much with a LOT of the other blogs and bloggers, though, and it’s been a problem throughout since well before Iowa. Something about which a lot of bloggers have grumbled, mainly privately, I think. HTH!
A different set of in’s and outs. I don’t think it will make a huge difference, but it will effect some entrenched players. Obama is a power player (this isn’t necessarily a bad thing) and he will remake the party as he believes appropriate. He’s already started, choking off funding to certain 527’s. Who gets jobs, who gets funding, will be much more in the control of a different machine than since 93. People who Obama really needs or owes will do very well, I think. SEIU, for example, I think will get what they paid for. Blogs will not, because blogs did not deliver their supporters, the supporters delivered the blogs, to a large extent. Obama does not pay people, or pay attention to people, whose constituencies he can reach by himself. SEIU’s working class blue and pink collar votes are votes that Obama would probably not have gotten without the union – they will be rewarded. The sort of people who read blogs were already likely to go for whoever the anti-Clinton was.
However, I don’t think there’s enough money to really control things, and there are going to be a lot of people out of power with nothing better to do than be progressive, so I don’t think Obama will get the control he seeks. But it will be uncomfortable outside the tent. But then it always is, and the Clinton’s did the same thing.
Well, in many cases the blog outreach person wasn’t senior enough. In another sense, they just don’t consider us that important. Dodd had the best outreach, by far. Clinton, oddly, has had better and better outreach as time went by. Mostly if people think they can win without us, they ignore us. If they’re having trouble, suddenly they realize that 5 or 10 or 20 million viewers is still a sizable channel worth paying attention to.
In Obama’s case, however, he had an online presence through other methods and didn’t need the blogs. This is a coldly rational decision. I think it will come back to bite him once he’s in power, but I don’t think it has hurt him at all in the primary nor will it in the election.
As comments go, this one makes little sense. Obama was bad in his outreach, oh except for knocking it out of the park with myspace and facebook, and oh, getting the Huffington Post behind him, and having ten to twenty times the presence as you say in your own post. And of course it is important to attach conditions. Well, he really didn’t start it. He was just smart enough to exploit it. But anyway and despite this, Clinton’s outreach was better. Why? I haven’t the foggiest and I’m guessing neither do you.
I think that the reasons things got so ugly is simple.
When it came down to Obama and Clinton, the idealists sided with Obama, and the cynics/realists sided with Obama.
Those of us who went with Clinton weren’t expecting much — just someone who could fix the country. And over the last few months all of us have been enormously impressed by her — and while we were pretty nasty about the Obama personality cult, until very recently, we really did not go after Obama.
The Obama camp, the Idealists, had accepted Obama “on faith”. They believed (without any evidence) that he could unify people, and “change the process” and that progressive policies would result. And as it became more and more obvious that Obama was not the candidate they were hoping he’d be, they got uglier and uglier — rather than renounce their “faith”, they justified their continued faith by attacking Clinton — in order to ‘keep the faith” it was necessary to demonize Clinton to justify supporting Obama.
But the most damaging aspect of this whole mess is that the vast majority of the progressive blogosphere — the people who bought into Obamamania (and that includes Duncan and various assorted “impartial” observers) — have lost all credibility as media critics. They simply parroted and amplified the worst of the crap being thrown at Hillary Clinton — they started praising Matthews, for crying out loud. And the “neutrals” kept silent — they were ‘neutral” because to comment on what was being done to Clinton would be to take sides, and through their silence they became complicit.
Has Clinton run a perfect campaign… of course not. I was extremely concerned when she put up a commercial to exploit the whole “bitter/cling” thing — that was dog-whistle politics, and I didn’t like it. But I couldn’t get too upset about it because she had been so frequently, and falsely, accused of doing it throughout this campaign by Obama supporters that she got a pass for really doing it once.
But I have yet to see an Obama supporter with the exception of BTD acknowledge that Obama has done some extremely underhanded and despicable stuff. All they ever do is say “Hillary did it too” and “Hillary was worse” even when it not true—which it usually was.
But Clintnn supporters are angry now — what they saw on Saturday was a distillation of everything they knew intuitively about Obama. After Saturday, I don’t think Unity is possible…. it wasn’t possible for me personally a couple of weeks ago, but now I’m angry enough that I will do what I have to in order to make sure that Jewish voters, Hispanic voters, women and older voters understand the message that Obama sent them on Saturday — “if you don’t support me, you deserve only half a vote”.
Maybe it’s because Ian had actual interaction with the campaign blog outreach people — and you are making assumptions based on what large blogs supported Obama out of other interests (say, not liking Clinton and opposing her candidacy as opposed to getting good reach-out from the Obama campaign itself)? Because Ian is exactly right based on my personal experience, too…
I’m guessing you’re not trying to understand.
It is damn near impossible to get a response from the Obama campaign on anything as a blogger. They do not invite bloggers to conference calls. They do not credential bloggers, as a rule.
Blog is not a synonym for internet. Facebook is not a blog.
They have a lot of blog support, they did not get it by doing blog outreach. If you want to support Obama as a blogger, great. But the Obama campaign has done almost no blog outreach, and his support is not based on blog outreach. Obama has very clearly said that he does not like blogs, personally, and that attitude is well reflected by how his staff treats blogs and bloggers.
Frankly, if Edwards had been the anti-Clinton, he would have gotten the same level of adulation and support. While there are things people like about Obama, it has mostly been about the fact that he was the anti-Hillary.
Obama did not make the decision – the committee did – including several of the Clinton supporters. Who’s a hater now?
nature, red in tooth and claw
pluk, are you going to continue with your vendetta after Sen. Clinton throws her support behind Obama?
Outreach to me means outreach to us as a community and not the behind the scenes interactions which you have. Those lead to less not more transparency in the blogosphere and make some views by virtue of their “access” more privileged than others.
BTW Paul, nice narrative as good as and as fact free as many of the Republican ones I’ve seen.
Yes. Assuming Hillary does her damndest to campaign for Obama.
It’s really all up to her.
Seems as though the temperature’s rising here this afternoon.
Yes, but since you were responding to Ian’s point — which was about “blog outreach” and not “general public outreach,” you guys are talking past each other. Sorry for trying to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding but what I see now was you making a point about one thing while Ian was addressing another.
I think it is you who are being somewhat disingenuous. In my original comment, I said,”The reason that “Obama” blogs were so much bigger than Clinton ones were was because Clinton’s outreach to the netroots was next to non-existent and sucked.” Note nowhere did I say blogger outreach. For me, although not perhaps for you, the terms left blogosphere and the netroots can be used interchangeably. Sure, one can try to push minor differences in emphasis but mostly they are the same. Both are a lot more than individuals bloggers and posters. Maybe you value your access to the candidates. For the work I do, access isn’t necessary. Given the last 7 year, I would say access is not all it is cracked up to be.
Obama made the decision…
The Clinton supporters wanted both delegations seated at full stength based on the vote. That is what her representatives told the committee — consistent in principles, and consistent with the rules of the party.
Obama offered two different approaches to Michigan and Florida.
Bonier, representing Obama, wanted people in Michigan were to be fully represented at the convention (full delegation at full voting strenght) but Obama wanted the result of the primary completely ignored, and the delegation split 50-50. (That could not be done within the rules, of course, but the rules don’t matter to Obama.)
But in Florida, where older voter, hispanic voters, jewish voters, and women had turned out in record number, and where as a result Clinton received a 38 delegate lead, Obama sent Wexler (whose district had gone 70.1% for Clinton to 19.1% to Obama, btw) to say “treat all of these people like they are worthy of only half the benefits of citizenship in the United States.
Wexler, who screamed and yelled in January 2001 about the injustice that had been perpetrated by the Supreme Court, was now telling the RBC to DISENFRANCHISE FLORIDA VOTERS BY 50%.
(wanna try deny THAT, Christy?)
Thank you for the clarification. “General public outreach” on the web sounds to me like a definition for netroots. It just might not be the netroots we are used to. As for blogger outreach, I am deeply ambivalent. I think information is important and if that must be obtained directly from the candidates or if there is an opportunity to inform them, then that is fine. The problem is that much of this happens behind the scenes and fosters many of the same “access” issues we see in the MSM.
Paul, I’m wholly uninterested in having a flame war with you after the way you treated Marcy. Thanks.
Access now tells you something about who’ll have access in a year. For many purposes access doesn’t matter, for others it does. But one thing it does tell you is who someone thinks is worth talking to, and listening to.
Thank you for saying this Christy !!!
Thanks, Ian – I’ve felt like a voice in the wilderness recently. Even before John Edwards left the race, it was becoming clear that there were a great many hot heads in the blogosphere. A couple of my formerly favorite blogs dropped from my blogroll as a result, and FDL almost joined them.
For me, the Take A Breath and Think For A Second has become a sort of mantra. I wish more people would take it up.
The coming race will now be more difficult thanks to all this stupidity. It has little to do with the behavior of the Clinton and Obama. They’ve made some gaffs, but until folks spent days blowing them out of proportion, none of them would have mattered that much. Now, it’s something that will likely have to be explained away, not to mention forgiven, in the general.
Talking to myself again, as usual. Anyway, for other latecomers, I’ll add this link on blog deletions, and this one for an example of why FDL almost didn’t make the cut.
As for the blog outreach thing, it was pretty clear from early on that Obama’s campaign didn’t respect Internet communities very much. I’m guessing nothing’s changed, and that’s bad news for Obama.
“but now I’m angry enough that I will do what I have to in order to make sure that Jewish voters, Hispanic voters, women and older voters understand the message that Obama sent them on Saturday — “if you don’t support me, you deserve only half a vote”.
Anger often motivates but rarely informs the best course of action.
pluk, I don’t think “Jewish voters,” thought they were included in Sen. Clinton’s “hard working white voters” comment.
Marley died of cancer, not a drug overdose. (I know you didn’t say that, but the implication was sitting there waiting to be drawn.) The brain cancer was possibly related to a football (soccer) injury. His drug (ab)use was mostly “herb”. It is a shame that he left us so early. He refused standard treatments for his cancer because of his religious beliefs.
I for one have posted many a comment on the media websites begging people on both sides of the Clinton/Obama divide to stop taking the media bait by attacking each others candidates. But unfortunately, each camp continued to attack both candidates and each other. You could just visualize the corporate media laughing their heads off about how easy these people were to manipulate.
I hope we all learn a lesson from this mess of a campaign and stop making our own personal candidate a saint and the other persons candidate a devil because when we do that we give the media the cover they need to write BS stories that they end up using against our candidate in the Fall. I call it the media divide and conquer strategy and they’ve been using it against Democrats for years.
The one time in the Primary when we had almost everyone on the same page was when that horrible ABC debate occured. When that happened and we all pushed back there were some in the media who actually GOT IT. Just think what we could do if we forced the media to take the high road all the way through the primaries and refused to take their bait even when it was to our individual candidates advantage. If we did that we would have the standing necessary to challenge them when they attempted to use BS stories to attack our nominee in the Fall campaign. But when we allow them to divide us in the primaries we hand them the excuse they need to dismiss us in the Fall by claiming that we are just being partisan when we object to their BS coverage because we willingly let them do it in the primary.
I don’t like group think on the blogs but I hope that in the next presidential election every blog will caution their readers about not falling for the media’s tricks.
ian – is this really true? or was it an effort at perception management?
from the nyt:
you write:
where is the dedication to reality? to evidence? weren’t we supposed to be the ones in the reality based community? that if there are to be accusations they have to be backed up with evidence? not that accusations (even if true) aren’t to be permitted because someone claims it causes damage?
and yet am i expected to tolerate racist code language? and free floating accusations of misogyny with no more evidence than criticism of one of the candidates – instead of the all too common real examples of misogyny ? all in the name of unity?
the politics of identity is NOT the same thing as anti-racist or anti-sexist. and anti-sexist is NOT the same thing as feminism.
i’d rather work on challenging the false narratives of ALL the presidential candidates.
1,862 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Blue Texan:
“Yes. Assuming Hillary does her damnedest to campaign for Obama.”
Do you really think that there is a chance that she’ll either campaign vigorously and honestly for ‘im or that she’ll even stay in the party? I’m not convinced that havin’ either of them anywhere close to ANY Democratic campaigns is a good idea until both of ‘em are too old ta present a viable threat ta run for dogcatcher.
And frankly, I don’t wanna see her on the ticket…I’m reminded of JFK and LBJ and ya know how THAT one turned out!!
And finally, I am bemused at all the M*Clintonistas who, after bein’ willin ta trash anything and everything that was center-left and not DLC-right wing, decry Obama as bein’ power hungry, apolitical or amoral and NON-progressive. I think Obama ran a very disciplined and closely guarded campaign and used a lotta political jujitsu on the M*Clintons and the established Democratic power elite…that is he used their own right wing politics and corporatist dependence against them by presenting himself as “progressive” while having policy positions and rhetoric that could not be attacked as “left wing”. In order to govern Obama is gunna hafta have a very large constituency that is NOT tied to the old guard or corporate interests. The corporatists in the Democratic Party and beyond are NEVER gunna grant ‘im fealty and they are all assumin’ that he’s gunna hafta go to the right and come to them in order ta get anything done. Hence the canard that he can’t win without the M*Clinton supporters.
I believe ,however, that what Obama is doin is buildin’ a constituency not unlike the New Deal coalition without the Dixiecrats so that he can get things done by goin’ over the heads of the paid assassins in Congress to a broad coalition of people in every congressional district.
If I am right, this is a very dangerous game and a couple of the last people to get close to accomplishing this died in the attempt.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS BATTLE IS OVER NOW ON WITH THE WAR!!
Ian please explain the lies and distortions presented by Hillary Clinton, not her husband or any of her advisors. She lied concerning Tuzla, not once, but on four seperate occasions starting in Dec. 07, reading from prepared notes. Then we have NAFTA, Irish Peace Agreement and Travelgate! Why can’t she explain her votes for Iraqi War Authorization, Lyl-Lieberman Amendment and against the Levin Amendment and Senate Amendment #4882 to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas?
If I do vote, it will be for Obama, but with reservations.
My opinion concerning Hillary is based on the evidence and not some misogynistic rant.
You might add in the talk about “obliterating” Iran, and the choice of Michael O’Hanlon as a foreign-policy advisor.
i don’t think so. more likely it tells you who they are willing to put effort into manipulating. personally, i’d prefer to see no special access. especially when i see how you-all value your access. we’ve been down this road before with other insiders…
i want to see the game changed. not just the names of the players.
1,861 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen selise:
“I want to see the game changed. Not just the names of the players.”
Bless your heart…you keep goin’ forward, I gotcher back!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!
Looks like I’m being late from thread to thread here. In the midst of all this bickering, I have asked and not received an answer.
Why should I support Obama? I need substance and NOT an answer about how awful Clinton is or how “good” he is. Please. Sell me on Obama. He’s going to be the nominee. I want to support him.
selise, I think Ian and Christy were both saying they were trying to elicit information from the various campaigns, and Obama’s was much less helpful in providing INFORMATION than the others. Doesn’t mean Ian or Christy was looking for special treatment, just information.
Citizen Audrey:
Listen to his speeches, listen to his answers to questions from everyone, read his position papers, and e-mail his campaign with your questions.Then comapre what you get with the other candidates, in this case Nader and McCrazy. Then make up your own mind…that’s called democracy.
Sorry Norske. I don’t have access to his speeches or Q&A. I need transcripts or you and other supporters to tell me because when I go looking on my own, I find what Cujo finds. Some really strange behavior from someone who is supposed to be a Democrat. Behavior that tells a different story from his words. Check here:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/06…..nt-1476061
Oh and LINKS. I need links! Please.
“A much smaller, but nonetheless vocal part of the blogosphere clustered into a few enclaves to represent the other side, with at least a couple blogs becoming the mirror of what Corrente likes to call “Clinton Derangement Syndrome.” The pure visceral contempt poured out by many pro-Obama bloggers was matched and returned.”
Point taken, but is it wise to quote a blog that is one of the anti-Obama “mirrors” of CDS to make that point?
thanks norske!
you know i’m no obama fan either – but you never give me the grief i’ve gotten from some of the pro-clinton folks. many thanks for that too!
Audrey, Obama did not vote for war and he voted against the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas. His judgement was for the saving of lives and not the killing of thousands. Its good enough for me!
The wingnut exploding head dream team:
Hillary Clinton for Sec. of HHS.
John Edwards for Attorney General.
Wesley Clark for Sec. of Defense.
Bill Clinton for US Ambassador to the UN.
Sielbus for VP? I dunno, she looks good on paper, but she’s got the media presence of a fencepost.
John – Using your logic, it is fair to say that Bob Dole didn’t vote for the war either, as neither were in the Senate at the time a vote occurred. (Clusterbombs notwithstanding)
There is no logic in your comment. Dole is not running for president and he does support the war. Obama was not in the senate, but at the time gave a speech opposing the war. Hillary, with her vaunted experience and judgement blew it.
Those are two narrow issues, especially the vote for war. As I said, I’m not pro-Clinton so supporting him because he didn’t do something you don’t like about what Clinton did is neither here nor there. There were plenty of things that have been voted on that concern all of us. My major issue is with his overall top-down controlling manner. His apparent desire for me to shut up when disagreeing with him is the other side of the coin. Has he spoken at all about how he intends to make me and my ideas to be welcomed in “his” party? Or am I to be disenfranchised once again? Will you tell me how his candidacy and subsequent Presidency will make all of us United?
Riesz, you want hate, so you see hate. It is you not us, I like Obama’s style, Clinton’s not so much. Hate? Hatred never enters into it.
bama listens to certain groups and people. He hasn’t “changed the game”, he’s changed the specific roster of players (within a small subset of people who are even allowed to be in contention). Until there is meaningful:
a) finance reform
b) media reform
that’s just the way it’s going to be. If you don’t want to play the game, then you will have done to you what is always done to people who don’t play the game.
What the netroots and blogosphere actions have told me this past year is that they are willing to give away their voice and their votes and get nothing in return.
And that is exactly what they will get: nothing Obama wasn’t going to give already.
But feel free to trust “the leader” to do the right thing.
I’m afraid I didn’t follow every little scandal. However, let’s take one that I’m in a position to judge: the NAFTA scandal. Here’s what I know – a non-partisan civil servant from the most prestigious and well staffed Canadian department BEFORE the scandal arose, wrote a paper saying Obama’s campaign had reassured Canada that nothing would change on NAFTA.
That bureaucrat had no reason to lie. There is actual paper showing that Obama’s campaign lied, whereas the stuff about Clinton’s campaign is he-said, she-said.
My judgement, as it happens, is that both campaigns lied about NAFTA. But there’s more concrete evidence that Obama’s campaign lied.
The followers of neither campaign can see the sins of their own nominee. That’s the point.
ian – i DON’T trust obama in any way. i am NOT an obama partisan.
the game i want to see changed is the gatekeeper game. i’d rather you bloggers get no access, unless that access extends to the rest of us. because what i’ve seen happen is the people get manipulated when they trust politicians. just like the MSM. so when i say i want the game changed and not the players, what i mean is that i don’t want the blogosphere driven by insider access. i’d rather see the blogging equivalent of knight-ridders instead of the nyt.
i agree we have given away our voice this past year – we could have been using it to hold our dem leaders accountable. instead, with very few exceptions we have not done than. in fact, too often we have made excuses for them that were not consistent with the evidence in front of us.
There is no possibility that 5 to 20 million netrootizens are going to be invited to ask questions on conference calls. Nor is there any possibility that they will all be allowed to ask specific questions of other kinds. Let’s talk turkey – I made about 5 inquiries this year, that’s all, and got an answer on one of them. The two most important inquires were detailed questions about Hillary’s health care plan (and I do mean detailed) and detailed questions about Obama’s free trade plan. I did not get answers to either sets of questions. If I had, you would have read articles which were much more able to accurately diagnose whether or not they were good policies and whether they’re really serious (some of the questions imbedded were meant to test if they were really serious.)
I have read their public papers on both issues, in detail. But they have large gaps. So if I can’t get answers, and if the media won’t even ask, which most of them won’t, those questions never get answered, and imo those policy questions were very important questions, mostly ignored.
If bloggers are to act on behalf of blog readers it is helpful to have some access. It’s really just that simple. It’s not necessary for everything, I did almost all of my blogging without any access to speak of, but it is extraordinarily useful to do certain types of stories.
And frankly, I don’t see how most blogs could have been more supine before their chosen candidate than they were. Access can’t corrupt people who are already kissing the leader’s feet. And those who weren’t won’t be massively corrupted anyway.
Most bloggers aren’t corrupt, or even close. They’re fan club leaders. I’m not sure which is worse.
i’m sorry i’m being so unclear – imo, it’ NOT an issue of corruption. maybe fan club leaders is closer – because i just think of it as being manipulated not corrupted.
you say:
of course not. that’s not what i mean.
with regards to conference calls, which wasn’t what i was referring to but can be used as an illustration: why are they handled with such lack of transparency? why aren’t they announced in advance and questions solicited from blog readers? why are (usually) no recordings made to be posted for blog readers to listen to? what are the big secrets that must be kept from us? why are so many bloggers acting like gatekeepers instead of gate openers? that is what i meant about access that extends to readers. it’s something that bloggers could be doing – but aren’t.
p.s. bloggers don’t have to have a chosen candidate in order to be supine. our politicians are incompetent at almost all aspects of governance – but the one thing they are very, very good at is manipulating people to do and think what they want them too. maybe i’m wrong about this – but i think i see signs of that manipulation everywhere.
Word.
My reference to NAFTA was for the support that Hillary gave it in order to help Bill secure its passage. Hillary now says that she was opposed to NAFTA, even though she has been shown on video giving speeches in its support!
PS I am not a follower of either campaign!
Hey, some of his best friends are black!
Seriously, in writing the story of this campaign, one of the things that will be pointed to as a major blunder by Clinton will be the way she took Bill’s wide and deep well of goodwill with black folks and ended up going from 60% of the black vote to 10%. No, I don’t believe that she’s racist. But by proving that she was willing to pander to racists in order to get votes, she alienated a group of people that are essential to a Democratic victory.
OT
BargainCountertenor June 3rd, 2008 at 9:42 am
For the last two days when I have gone to Firedoglake, instead of getting the blog, I get a large black and white “test pattern” that says: Please Stand By.”
I have sent an e mail to Jane asking for infomation but haven’t heard anything yet.
Anyone know what’s going on at the Lake?
BargainCountertenor:
I just clicked on Christy’s name (offered in her above comment), and now my Firedoglake site is restored.
Problem seems to be fixed!
As far as Ian’s comments are concerned, Hillary lost me when she supported the Iraq War resolution and then compounded that mistake with another: voting for the Kyl Lieberman amendment.
Most of the bloggesphere was antiwar from the beginning and, I think, that Obama’s clearly stated opposition to war generated support for him among the bloggers.
I am still disappointed that he backed Lieberman over Lamont, and I don’t think that, if elected, he has any intention of governing as a true liberal, but at least he isn’t wholly owned by the DLC.
And, for me, that’s a good thing.