And her husband can get through the vetting, how exactly?

Mrs Greenspan on the case.

Exactly….Andrea, tell them….Andrea, now tell them…Andrea…

My suggestion from the last thread is for the party to take a couple of days to run some serious polling to find out if the combined ticket is best for the party. Then she and Obama should make a decision based on the best chances for success in November. Let the math decide.

“Ever since Bill let the cat out of the bag, it’s been clear that this is what Hillary has been trying to leverage.”

Bwahahahahhaaa..

Sorry.

I really think the math is pretty obvious.

and Jane,

do you have a sense as to how this will work out ?

I thought all the leveraging was about paying down her campaign debts - and am kinda surprised by the VP gambit - just asking

Hilliary- Independent, hmmm………

I am amazed how we are even considering running the two most beatable candidates we have fielded this election

if there were any chance the republicans might have, we have given it to them

I still think we will bury them, but still we are surely not fielding the most winnable ticket

however, if obama does indeed take office he will be considered one of the greatest presidents ever to live

me must make certain he wins, our fight will be fierce, we will battle bigots claiming they are “democrats against obama” and if hillary is on his tickets we will face mesogenists claiming the same.

our battle will be fierce, we will face caging, election fraud, voter fraud, machine flips

our battle will be fierce but the future of this republic is at stake and we MUST prevail

I wonder how much of this is Bill’s idea. I have gotten the impression that he really, really wants back into the WH.

Nooooo, hillary can’t take vp. I bet my dad a dollar she wouldn’t get it.

Yes, you’ve put your finger on it!

You know, people have been trying to stoke that all day long in the comments. Is there any particular place from whence that sentiment is coming? Because I have not heard one hint of an “independent” Clinton anything from anyone in her camp or elsewhere. And I’m beginning to wonder if this is being pushed from any particular set of locations — or whether people are coming up with this all on their own at the same exact time all day today…it’s got me curious.

Can someone important just gently sit her down and break it to her…

“Hillary, he’s just not that into you.”

It always seems to be part of the “we must all believe the absolute worst of Senator Clinton at all times.”

Having Billary as the next in line would be a big mistake on Obama’s part. I’m tired of Hillary and her DLC crowd, and while I liked Bill, his proclivities aside, his political abilities seem to have atrophied, big time. Last, how would Billary undercut the Prez (if elected) to set up a 2012 run? I like the idea of shuffling her of to HHS.

She can’t afford to run as an independent, unless she runs with Bloomberg…

I think Obama would be open to having her on the ticket if it weren’t for Bill. But, Bill looms large.

I’m just wondering if that is coming from some source that someone could link up for me — or if it’s just one of those “I heard it from someone who heard it” kinds of things. Or whether it really is people coming up with it independently. Because until today, it’s not something I noticed anyone talking about at all. And suddenly it’s been in every comment thread today thus far that I’ve seen.

Just think of the power Hillary would wield as V.P.
thanks to the work of Big Dick.

I wouldn’t dismiss the idea that it the work of trolls.

Given that a number of Obama supporters seem to have gone out of their way to offend Hillary’s supporters, (which is the last thing Obama wants,) Obama is stuck with having to clean up that mess if he hopes to gather a winning coalition together. He should figure out which of any number of Democrats would be most effective in recovering the Hillary supporters. It might be Hillary, it might be one of her staunch supporters, it might be a governor, like Richardson. The object of all ire should be John McCain/George Bush.

No idea.

Oh to be a fly on the wall of their respective campaigns — I’m sure the tension is quite thick.

I’ve noticed it a few times over the last few weeks, but again, mainly as part of the let’s believe the worst from her no matter with no evidence of it crowd.

I’m sorry Christy I am one of the commenters who floated it up there earlier today. I did hear it mentioned one day on Green 960 (forget which show). This was about a week or so ago. I don’t remember if it was the host or a caller who brought it up. But it gave me chills because after Lieberman lost his primary but continued on to win it all anyway, it seemed like a plausible option.

But other more seasoned and reasoned commenters here have calmed me down. And my hubby :]

I hadn’t noticed it until today, which is why I was asking…anyone seen a source on it, or is it organic?

in line with perris’ comment -

why would you negate the thrust of your campaign: Change, by putting an uber-insider on the ticket ?

which may explain the root canal thingy - even if they were completely simpatico why would you hand the republicans that rather large cudgel ???

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Negatives too high. Much much too high.

In my case, it only emerges from my fevered brain thinking “Now how could this all go terribly, terribly wrong?”

Hey, Balrog, good to see, er, read you.

Considering the turnout for the primaries, I think it’s probably a safe bet to call the General for Obama. At least it didn’t come down to Obama v Ron Paul.

Hillary can play many roles in an Obama cabinet. I think having her as Health Secretary to see through the implementation of Universal Health Care would be most apt, given how much time she’s spent fighting for this …

On the other hand, I consider it a “threefer”. To paraphrase Tina Fey and Amy Poehler, “Oh, NO, we wouldn’t want to have THREE eminently qualified leaders in the White House!?”

There is this, but I don’t see a source for the number they quote. But it does come from a likely suspect.

I’ve heard this on Randi Rhodes show on Nova M….. it was one of those scenarios ….. If I can’t play on the big D court then will I take my ball and create my own court as an Independent….

She gets my vote.

Correction: “important” roles …

I haven’t heard it from anywhere. It’s mainly me fretting about Hillary being a sore loser and how far she’ll go.

Boxturtle (I have also suggested only half in jest that she might join McBush)

I personally would support an Obama/Clinton ticket. I just worry about her negatives, could she bring them down? Yeah, a little polling wouldn’t hurt at this point.

I’ll be glad when this is over. And I hope that will be by tomorrow.

Okay, the numbers come from our buddies at Rasmussen. And the Freepers have a post on it, too.

I’m not going to go searching for the links again but yesterday I posted some data from wiki on voting totals. IIRC for the primaries to date, Obama had received roughly 17.8M voters and Clinton roughly 17.6M.

In ‘04 roughtly 122M total votes in the GE with Bush receiving 62M and Kerry 59M.

So even if Obama gets ALL of the Clinton votes, he still needs to gather another roughly 18M to 20M voters. Minimum.

It’ll be over tonight. MSNBC has Obama down to 19 delegates before having majority.

Her incendiary negatives have bothered me all along, even while I had supported her (marginally).

Wow. I guess I’m being overly optimistic. I’ll go see if I can find the data.

But is that before they once again move the goalposts?

thanks.

a part of me is smugly pleased some of these superdels are being pressured.

when Donna Brazille was publicly wringing her hands about this in early March - all I heard was ‘Oh please ! don’t make us stand up and be counted !

They’ve already moved it so far, it’s out of the damn stadium. Unless she stages some sort of revolt at the Convention.. I just don’t see it happening.

OT wingnut-welfare edition; Ernest Istook

There was this HRC operative on Abrams last night, and she kept deflecting the question of “OK, 2,118 is it, right?” She kept saying “we’ll see…”

There taking about HRC running as an independent on CNN right now…. They had poll info and supporters and non-supports comment on it…

TALKING ….. preview is my friend …. I do know it too…

Jane and Christy -

with you both on the thread - want to thank you both for keeping the Lake so pollution free this season. Your ability to see around corners never ceases to amaze - mad props

Senator Clinton makes the Change message difficult, and dulls Obama’s specific anti-war message. I think the GOPs will trip us up in the fall if we have someone who voted with McCain to prosecute this war (or even voted to empower the President to pursue diplomacy, as some saw their vote at the time).

Why not Barbara Boxer? Or Russ Feingold? Or Patty Murray?

Or Brian Schweitzer? Or Kathleen Sibelius? Or Janet Napolitano?

It’s a Hot Air Trial Balloon fest out there today.

Personally, I think all this talk of an independent run by Clinton is so much ratfucking from the ‘Pubs.

No person who works on the campaign is going to close the door publicly for her. That is Hillary’s move to make — to do otherwise would be incredibly disrespectful to a woman who has worked her ass off on this campaign for months. And no one — not Ickes, not McAuliffe, not even the Big Dog — is going to take that announcement away from her, I’d bet money on it. If and when it happens, it will be Hillary who says so — and no one else.

Anyone who is taking any public kabuki from any person involved with the campaign publicly or privately seriously over the next coupla days hasn’t been paying attention to the difference between “political theater” and “top level dealmaking.” All the action is at the Hillary/Wolfson/Ickes level and the Obama/Axelrod level — and all of the staffers know what they can say junkyard dog style to rile up supporters for fundraising purposes, and what they are really saying behind the scenes. It is the stuff we are NOT hearing right now that interests me…

Like my daddy used to say:

Life’s a gas.
Even if 75% of it is methane.

I’m willing to get that Obama will most likely tap Brian Schweitzer. He has a sound Energy Policy, Executive experience, and he’s also pro 2nd.

Give Hillary Senate Majority Leader. Knife-fighting insider policy wonk. Perfect gig for her. My senator, Harry Reid, show zero “testicular fortitude.”

1,862 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher:

It sure looks like this guy Obama knows how ta play political poker and all this attention Mrs. M*Clinton is tryin’ ta keep on herself on the day that should be all his is not gunna go very far toward gettin’ her what she wants when he matches the pot. My daughter is gunna be in the Civic Center tanight and I’m tellin’ ya that noboy around here is talkin’ about what poor Mrs. M*Clinton is gunna do.

What do you hear about the Obama strategy for tonight? He’s been nuthin’ but classy about this up to this point but, my God he’s gotta be close ta losin’ his patience with her.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION LET’S LISTEN TO THE WINNER TONIGHT!!

Ding!

After reading the shit that passes for comments over at Talk Left, I still have yet to hear a Clinton supporter answer this question — How’s that fucking war working out for ya?

Here’s hoping Obama has the sense to stay away from the swamp that is the Clinton name.

With Teddy and Byrd ill, she may decide to stay in the Senate.

Yeah, I have to agree. I stated on another thread that I thought she was in full-tilt corporate lawyer mode now, negotiating an incredibly complex M&A deal.

Gosh if you put it that way, I can’t see why on earth they aren’t running to answer your question.

O.o

Obama would be greatly served by having HCR as VP. With her energy and drive we might actually have an effective Executive Branch. When was the last time we had a Democratic Executive that was not being hamstrung by a war, a bad economy or a never ending investigation? If we can get out of Iraq, restore the American economy and avoid the endless investigations we may see meaningful health care reform, strengthened Social Security, and some renewed pride in our country.

Also HRC may be bargaining for her as VP, and perhaps Wes Clark at Defense. I hope she can convince Barrack to keep the Republicans out of the Cabinet. I hate thinking of him reaching out to Powell or the like.

silly u, it was only mismanaged.

Another positive on Schweitzer is that he lived and worked in the middle east for approx 12 years….

Agreed. The VP slot should go to a former governor, geographically far away from North/Northeast, Hispanic, Obama supporter but with ties to Billary…hmm, now who could that be?

I understand he’s got woman problems, though. Richardson may not be a wise choice, after all.

OH, right! That’s a big one! I can’t believe I left that one out.

I’d be concerned about their combined negatives/weaknesses having a multiplier effect, rather than compensating for each other.

Majority Leader.

Harry Reid needs to tend his homefires — his reelection in 2010 should be his highest priority. And he doesn’t want to get Daschled. I think he should step down as Majority Leader, but any 2008 gains in the Senate will credited to him by his peers. No Senator will challenge Reid, but his own electoral interests are served by stepping down.

And if he does, Durbin and Schumer are in line to succeed him, unless there’s an outsider challenge from someone like Dodd. I can’t see Clinton getting that slot without a real push from the White House.

Nooo waaayy!!

IIRC it’s popped up every once in awhile before today, but as a Doomsday scenario, not a viable possibility.
YMMV

FunnyD

Yeah, that’s right CHS, because there is no answer, just like their favored candidate could offer no rational explanation, neither can those who now claim that Obama was soooo fortunate to be black, because that’s why he won. It’s not just the Ferraro types who buy that horseshit, it’s people who claim the be Democrats.

Hillary is extremely capable and talented, but I don’t think she’d accept being saddle-broken by an uppity younger man with an agenda, a team behind him and a spouse as capable and ambitious as she. The personal and professional conflicts would be too great. Hillary seems incapable of playing an outwardly and inwardly capable lieutenant to the President. I don’t think she could resist engaging in palace intrigue; more likely, she’d lead it. We’ve had eight years of Cheney actually running the White House from the VP slot; we can’t afford another VP who wants to emulate him rather than denounce him.

We need, instead, a White House wholly behind the unique presidency that would be Obama’s. He will have unprecedented problems cleaning up after CheneyBush, with unprecedented obstruction from GOP’ers in Congress, those implanted in the federal bureaucracy, those in the punditocracy and think [sic] tanks. Not to mention unprecedented obstruction from the intelligence-industrial complex who have been newly and extravagantly enriched and empowered by CheneyBush’s rampant outsourcing. They would never accept any reforms of the outsourcing process or their scope of work, which has essentially displaced government skills at considerably greater cost.

Hillary and her many followers and the Democrats need her to fill a substantial, but I think, independent role. But what role? I still favor the Supreme Court.

I think Richardson’s ties to the Clintons are somewhat, um, frayed.

I would have to support such a push.

Clinton doesn’t harm Obama’s “change” message, not for at least half the party.

Remember, Obama isn’t able to fundamentally “change” politics. The reality is, we need to get “change” from the system as it is.

We went through Reagan and Bush (record deficits, Iran-Contra, voodoo economics, gargantuan federal government, “just say no”, etc), and B Clinton introduced change (budget surplus, peace and prosperity, all while fighting congress). Then W Bush came along and reversed all that.

Clinton-style change would be good. If Obama can do that, great. Even he can do better, even greater ;-)

Clinton-style change would be good

NAFTA, welfare reform, etc., etc,.

Oh yeah, I’m all for more of that shit.

We need several mid-forties liberal justices. Hillary is 60, Roberts is 53, Alito is 58.

She has zero ConLaw CV or chops.

not to mention the new precedents of the offive of vp.

Late to the party. Just read your post Jane. What an absolute cluster F***

“I am open to it,”

As a quick opinion (before returning to the garden) Dangerous, very dangerous. I would not want, were I BO, a clinton a heartbeat away.

ooops Cluster F*** does not mean your post!!!

After reading the shit that passes for comments over at Talk Left, I still have yet to hear a Clinton supporter answer this question — How’s that fucking war working out for ya?

Here’s hoping Obama has the sense to stay away from the swamp that is the Clinton name.

Thankfully, some comments are easy to rise above.

Do you mean Bush’s war? The one that Kerry also supported (you didn’t vote for Kerry, right?)? I won’t defend her vote, but neither will I lay the blame of all the ills in the world, or the prosecution of an illegal war at Clinton’s feet. That’s intellectually lazy.

Oh and…uhm, I suppose the question would be more meaningful if we could contrast Obama’s and Clinton’s voting record post-2003.

Slam talkleft if it makes you feel better. But the main posters there are very perceptive.

for reditters: The Waxman Cometh

Given the great job done by folks like Alito, Roberts, Scalia, and Thomas, that might not be such a bad thing.

There have been numerous situations oveer the years where folks without the ConLaw background were appointed to the court and made excellent justices due to having empathy in how their rulings might affect the real world.

Wasn’t Hillary for an amendment banning flag burning? Not sure that I would be quite comfortable with her on the Supreme Court.

Hmmmmm, if she helps the ticket.

Well, she doesn’t. So that solves that, right?

No she was not. My understanding was she supported a very narrowly drafted bill to ban burning in limited situation in order to forestall the push for an amendment.

Her proposed law banning flag burning was an attempt to derail the amendment.

Slam talkleft if it makes you feel better. But the main posters there are very perceptive.

Perceptive, but WRONG.

Frankly, they sound like crazy people these days.

I recommend this speech to everyone, in light of the depressing big picture exigencies:

I used to live in a country called America. It was not a perfect country, God knows, especially if you were African American or Native American or of Japanese descent in World War II, or poor or gay or a woman or an immigrant, but it was a country I loved and honored. This country gave me hope that it could be better. It paid its workers wages that were envied around the world. It made sure these workers, thanks to labor unions and champions of the working class in the Democratic Party and the press, had health benefits and pensions. It offered good public education. It honored basic democratic values and held in regard the rule of law, including international law and respect for human rights. It had social programs from Head Start to welfare to Social Security to take care of the weakest among us, the mentally ill, the elderly and the destitute. It had a system of government that, however flawed, was dedicated to protecting the interests of its citizens. It offered the possibility of democratic change. It had a media that was diverse and endowed with the integrity to give a voice to all segments of society, including those beyond our borders, to impart to us unpleasant truths, to challenge the powerful, to explain ourselves to ourselves.

I am not blind to the imperfections of this America, or the failures to always meet these ideals at home and abroad. I spent 20 years of my life in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and the Balkans as a foreign correspondent reporting in countries where crimes and injustices were committed in our name, whether during the Contra war in Nicaragua or the brutalization of the Palestinians by Israeli occupation forces. But there was much that was good and decent and honorable in our country. And there was hope.

The country I live in today uses the same words to describe itself, the same patriotic symbols and iconography, the same national myths, but only the shell remains. America, the country of my birth, the country that formed and shaped me, the country of my father, my father’s father and his father’s father, stretching back to the generations of my family that were here for the country’s founding, is so diminished as to be nearly unrecognizable. I do not know if this America will return, even as I pray and work and strive for its return. The “consent of the governed” has become an empty phrase. Our textbooks on political science are obsolete. Our state, our nation, has been hijacked by oligarchs, corporations and a narrow, selfish political elite, a small and privileged group which governs on behalf of moneyed interests. We are undergoing, as John Ralston Saul wrote, “a coup d’etat in slow motion.” We are being impoverished — legally, economically, spiritually and politically. And unless we soon reverse this tide, unless we wrest the state away from corporate hands, we will be sucked into the dark and turbulent world of globalization where there are only masters and serfs, where the American dream will be no more than that — a dream, where those who work hard for a living can no longer earn a decent wage to sustain themselves or their families, whether in sweatshops in China or the decaying rust belt of Ohio, where democratic dissent is condemned as treason and ruthlessly silenced…

I don’t envy the stuff facing next President. One thing is certain — McBu’ush will not face up to anything rational and constructive. He will be an agent of irreversible ruination.

Via email:

Congresswoman Maxine Waters Endorses Barack Obama

Chicago, IL – Today, Congresswoman Maxine Waters (D-CA) endorsed Barack Obama for President. Waters switched her endorsement from Clinton to Obama citing his ability to unite the country and leadership on issues such as the housing crisis and war in Iraq.

“Throughout this primary election, I have witnessed two extraordinary candidates champion the concerns that matter most to the American people. As an outspoken advocate on issues critical to women and children, I have great admiration for Senator Clinton and know first-hand her commitment to our country.

Per CNN BO 12 delegates away from the magic number….

Right - Hillary AND Obama supported the narrowly drafted flag-burning bill, in order to head off the amendment. Bob Somerby (dailyhowler) has written several posts about this.

I just googled Hillary and flag burning, she wasn’t for an amendment, she introduced a bill banning flag burning.

Please, let’s not make FDL a place to debate the merits of other blogs, shall we?

Cheney only has power because Bush surrendered all of his to him. Neither Obama nor any competent CEO would tolerate such destructive insubordination. But Cheney’s example would fuel Hillary’s sense of entitlement, making Obama spend as much time reining her in as delegated to her essential projects.

Given the problems involved in recuperating from eight years of the stranglehold of CheneyBush, that’s not a healthy dynamic for the White House or the country.

Yes. She was openly against the ongoing raging epidemic of flag burning horrifically flooding our TeeVee screens nightly.

wooHOO
love Maxine!

Thanks, As you can see my comment, I decided to use google because my own memory was foggy..

on May 11 Carl Bernstein had this to say:

However, from the perspective of both campaign camps, there is serious concern about the kind of landing she’s aiming for and the precarious task of bringing her plane down, especially if she decides to seek the vice presidential nomination. There could be a number of different landings:

• Smooth and skillful, doing the Obama candidacy no further damage and perhaps restoring to relative health the legacy of and regard for Bill and Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Party.

• Explosive, setting down after the enemy has been carpet-bombed (an “October surprise in May”), something the Obama campaign believes may be less and less likely to come from his Democratic opponent because of the dangers to the party and the Clintons’ reputation…

• Missing the runway and destroying the Democratic village, as even her advocates outside her immediate campaign apparat fear could happen if the Clinton campaign continues to pursue a harshly negative course.

• Just bumpy and scary enough to shake the Obama campaign one last time and get her into the hangar as the vice presidential nominee on the Democratic ticket. Increasingly, this is what people in Obama’s corner and those who know her well are becoming convinced she will try to do. Part of this assumption is based on her determination to roll up the biggest numbers possible in West Virginia and Kentucky, and Bill Clinton’s argument that she may still win a majority of popular votes in non-caucus states.

(oomph added)

What about Bill? Isn’t that really the question that’s lurking behind all the Hillary scenarios?

Well, how about US rep to the UN? Keeps him out of the White House, draws on his foreign policy expertise, and face it, the rest of world adores him.

I’ve been experiencing the beginnings of something like pleasure in the last couple of weeks watching Obama obliterate McCain’s predictable Rethug talking points–especially on foreign policy. I more, lots more, of that.

Clinton on the ticket would only guarantee the pulling of punches.

Consider: Clinton’s been arguing that she’s the only Democrat capable of countering McCain’s supposedly vast foreign policy credibility.

Obama’s been gaining traction by persuasively deriding McCain’s UTTER LACK of foreign policy credibility.

We need someone who won’t have to flip-flop to join Barack in that stomp-fest. Hillary’s based her anti-Obama messaging on the presumption that McCain is substantive and formidable. Obama needs a message-multiplying running mate who’ll help continue to call McCain out as a joke.

“and face it, the rest of world adores him.”
_________

Hmmmmm….

;)