Obama supporters say they won’t vote for Clinton too. They say they’ll go for Nadar.

It seems to be a variation on the “cult of personality.” That some supporters say they will vote for a Republican if their candidate isn’t chosen speaks volumes. Time for the party to be purged of blue dogs and those with a cultlike mentality.

This is a really thoughtful post. It’s really hard to reconcile with someone who is still fighting. Did Dean followers slur and slander their rival candidates calling them sleazy, etc? I don’t know if they did or not cuz I wasn’t paying attn then.

Edwards was my man in this race and he bowed out before I could even vote for him. But I got on board and supported Obama. The campaign tactics against him have been equally appalling as anything thrown at his rival.

I get the feminist anger, but I think Hil’s followers are being abused and are not being encouraged to work through their anger. Maybe this will happen soon. I can only hope.

Thought provoking post. Thanks.

PS I am a “younger older” white woman, almost in the Hillary demographic.

Don’t be so quick to jump on the “it’s the blue dogs” bandwagon with this. There are a number of Obama supporters who, before the Indiana primary for example, were saying they’d vote for McCain before they’d vote for Clinton. This isn’t a single-candidate phenomenon this year, not by any stretch…and trying to call out one side while insinuating the other side is pure just leads to a sort of “pot, this is kettle” retort in the making.

Thanks so much for this piece, Mike. Some compassion and real desire for understanding would go a long, long way on all sides of the current mess in which we are all standing. This sort of opening for conversation is a good way to get that started.

Wow. Does this completely presume that all of Clinton’s supporters are die hard feminists?

That no one truly believes she is the better candidate?

Quote:

Everyone knows, deep down, that Barack Obama won this contest playing by the rules.

Speaks volumes, doesn’t it? That’s like saying “deep down, everyone knows Obama is a better candidate, and it’s only those stubborn women who (mistakenly, silly girls) stick with Clinton.”

Jeebus. I have testicles and a PhD, and I prefer Clinton. And I know that if Obama and Clinton end this thing ugly, Obama is in deep trouble.

Oh, and Clinton, not Obama, won New Hampshire.

I’m surprised Hillary made it this far. There was plenty of women-hate going against her, but this was only one tool in their arsenal. She lost because she was a Clinton. She lost because she’s had an unprecedented amount of slander and propaganda put up against her, not just for the election, but for the last fifteen years! Hillary-Hate went on at full steam during the Bush Administration. It hasn’t let up since Hillary-Care. There were bios by big writers which questioned her “strange relationship with the truth”. There is a huge amount of hate against Hillary, by women too.

I don’t buy it, myself. I like her. I would totally vote for her. But the pummeling that she’s gotten for the past 15 years from the Republican hate machine has spilled over, and a lot of fairly sane Democrats now tote the same anti-Hillary talking points that they’ve spouting for years.

Here, here.

I had stopped feeding into the rancor after some fiery FDL streams a little while back.

The party needs to unite.

McCain will be a disaster for women in particular.

-G

Well, Kerry was easy to hate. He still is.

Time for the party to be purged of blue dogs and those with a cultlike mentality.

Heh, Blue Dogs, yes. “cultlike mentality”? Which ones would those be?

*snort!*

Mike: Fantastic. Tell your wife and mother-in-law that they RAWK! Important message for men of today and of future generations.

Sidenote: Did you see Ruturd Murdoch is going after Olbermann now by sending people to harass him at home and having the NY Post publish his home address?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..597/527228

I remember your Bill O’Loofah encounter at his home. Any chance you could share O’Falafel’s address? I’d like to send a fruitcake.

Heretofore unbeknownst to the American electorate, it’s called GenderTribalism.

It’s real, and it exists, and it’s very, very powerful. Maybe less so after a few more election cycles, i.e., once the U.S. gets itself a Maggie Thatcher, but for now, that’s what it is, no more, no less.

While really, really hard to take just now for the Hillary-ites, it does suggest we may be able to move beyond it for necessary purposes.

So it is another 4 or 8 years until a woman has a shot at the US presidency. That’s reality. In the meantime what is best for women’s rights? McCain? Nader?

Hillary ran a strong campaign. And she didn’t win the nomination. That’s just life, and the disappointment need not become sour grapes. Political reality is that women will be best served by Obama at this point, and all the disappointment in Hillary not winning the nomination will need to be refocused on what’s best for women given the reality of Obama as the Democratic candidate.

I agree it is past time for the US to have a woman president. When that happens it will be a great day for all Americans. My hope is that we have 2 terms of Obama, so 2016 would be the earliest – almost 2 generations after the UK had its first woman Prime Minister. More than 2 generations since predominantly muslim nations have had woman leaders.

I wrote (incorrectly):

Oh, and Clinton, not Obama, won New Hampshire.

She won the vote, but fewer delegates. Just like Texas (and those both illustrate the pathology of the Democratic primary system).

I don’t believe for a second that even 5% of Clinton’s supporters are even 10% as angry as crazy Harriet. If she and Geraldine Ferraro are representative in any way of the Clintonistas this party has much deeper problems. I have talked with hundreds of Clinton supporters over the past 3 months, and only 10% exhibited any anger at all, while about 40% would express the intention to vote for Obama in November without even being asked whether they would or not. I think this problem is blown 10 times out of proportion to what it really is.

I found the comments by Harriet Christian to be profoundly saddening.

-G

Women, no matter how talented or accomplished, more often than not find themselves culturally forced into a sort of second-class citizenship

I understand what you’re trying to say here, but this statement came right after you said that your wife does most of the child-rearing, so I feel obligated to respond to it.

While it is often dull and unglamorous, raising a child is the most important thing that your average person does. The fact that most men want to dump child-rearing on women says far more about men than it does about child-rearing.

No, for much of us who voted for and contributed to Obama, it’s simpler. Clinton voted for the war, and her braintrust supported and continue to support this war.

Why does everyone seem to want to forget the war?

I love to see a surprise in Minneapolis tomorrow night. Hill with Obama and a VP announcement. This has gotten too far out in the weeds.

Wow…we all have such different perceptions of reality. For her health care efforts Hillary was my most admired politician. For this race Edwards suited me best as it seemed Hillary had turned partially republican. Then came her and Bill’s campaign tactics which drove me deep into the Obama camp. How do Hillary’s supporters ignore her tactics?

Jane’s vid is the most viewed video on YouTube today.

http://www.youtube.com/browse?s=mp

Nice. Welcome any new YouTubers. We’re a bunch of rabid, dramatic prairie dogs here, and we’d be happy to have you stick around!

It’s that kind of compassion that is going to bring us all together to unite for November, Mike. Thanks for showing such leadership.

After all the sturm and drang, that was what tilted it against Sen. Clinton for me.

-G

Mike, Thank you for your honest post. You have identified a very real problem. That is that a lot of women, not all, and predominantly older women, are very upset with the way they percieve Hillary has been treated in this process.
My mother, who keeps a photo of Eleanor Roosevelt on the wall in her bedroom, informed me last night that she is not going to vote this November. I couldn’t beloeve it. Hell, she has been a Demcratic poll watcher since 1960. Now, I am going to try to calm her down between now and then, but believe me, there is a very real problem.

((((( Loo Hoo )))))

It is my belief that Hillary will campaign just as hard for BO, even if she is not the Veep …

Thought-provoking post, to be sure, but in the end I think it fails to address what I feel Hillary’s biggest issues have been: her campaign organization sucked, and she seemed absolutely tone-deaf when discussing her vote for the AUMF and the Kyl Amendment. Given that not much else separates her from Obama from a policy perspective, those are her two biggest gaffes. Ascribing her loss to sexism or the media picking on her somehow absolves her of these two big sins.

Oh, and one more thing: she’s actively encouraged the kind of behavior shown in the video clip.

It’s not the democratic vote that concerns me. The party will come together (unless Obama, as the presumptive winner, screws up reconciliation).

I prefer Clinton, but I’ll vote for Obama. Jeesh, we had a great crop of candidates, and it’s sad we can only keep one.

But, independent voters who are on the fence about McCain would probably tend to be more attracted to a Clinton (reliable, experienced, known knowns) than an Obama (more different, less well known, rhetoric versus policy details). This isn’t meant as a criticism of Obama, just how he might be perceived by swing voters–look at Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc.

A quick OT.

It appears the Pope is going to meet with Ahmadinejad.

John McCain better get a new talking point.

-G

Would she vote for Obama if Hillary were VP?

Great post, Mike. Hope to see you around lots.

Howdy, Petro.

What Christy and Jane said.

To all of those out there who are saddened that a woman (probably) won’t be the Democratic nominee, I have a lot of sympathy. She came closer than any other woman in history, and I think that if I were a woman–particularly an older woman who remembers the fights of the 50s, 60s, and 70s–I would be pretty heartbroken right now.

But at some point, you’re going to need to come to terms with your grief and realize that you now face a choice between John McCain and Barack Obama. At first glance, at looks like a crappy choice: McCain is anti-choice and calls his wife a c*nt, and Barack Obama is the man who (probably) just ended the campaign of the woman who has come closest to being elected President of the United States.

But please, look a little closer. Have a look at Barack Obama’s memoir, “Dreams From My Father”. The title probably irritates you. Where’s his MOTHER, you might wonder. I think the answer will surprise you: She’s throughout the book. She’s in the revised introduction, written after she died (”I know that she was the kindest, most generous spirit I have ever known, and that what is best in me I owe to her.”). She’s there at 4 o’clock in the morning, waking up her son in Indonesia to make him work on his English correspondence courses. She’s always there for him, even when his father walked away. There’s also his grandmother, who became the vice-president of a bank through a lot of hard work, only to be constantly overlooked by her male compatriots. And there’s his wife–who was his former boss–who is his rock.

Now ask yourself: Do you want to vote for a man who sees his wife as an equal, or do you want to vote for a man who sees his wife as a c*nt?

“Why does the Pope hate Israel/freedom/American World Domination ?”

I am sure there is going to be a certain amount of die hard supporteres who won’t vote for Obama no matter what Hillary does or says, so be it.
I also believe that between now and November the economy is going to be on the tip of everyones tongues.

That will be hard for anyone to ignore at that point and McSame has a proven track record of voting with Bushco on that issue.

People tend to vote their pocket book.

the new and improved Appeasement Pope!

Thank you for this post. I think that the reaction to a post like this will say alot about the sexism. It has been internalized by both men and women. I am no longer a victim. I see both sides and want Obama to win, but I work in the field of sexual assault and domestic violence and let me tell you that the pain is palpable–as palpable as it is in the black community.

I absolutely agree about white priviledge. But that doesn’t mean that women are any less victims or any less deserving of having a female president. I have heard one black spokeperson after another talk about what it means to have a black president. There is no black spokesperson seperating himself from this issue. And rightly so. I feel the same way about a woman president. I felt so strongly that I was considering voting for Elizabeth Dole, way back. Today I wouldn’t do it no matter what, but that is where I was at the time.

While there are many bad things about the Clintons…yes, I see them. You have to understand that no president in 40 years has done so much for women, domestic violence and sexual assault. The funding was monumental, the VAWA act did so much good that only those of you removed from the issue would be able to dismiss Bill and Hillary as a powerful force in the womens movement. It’s not black and white but that federal funding made a huge difference in my state and in my agency. We were able to accomplish goals that had only been dreamed and that today are considered mainstays of domestic violence and sexual assault treatment. (like social justice centers, and coorinated community responses in the smallest of towns).

It has to be aknowledged and frankly when you compare Obama on this issue he falls short. Way short. He needs to aknowledge this and change it. He needs to take up the sword that Hillary cannot carry. And yes, in senate not only did she vote pro on much of this financing, she spearheaded many more bills to take care of women and children than Obama did. That’s why I was FOR her in the beginning.

Honestly, violence in the homes of all americans is one of the most important issues we face. It colors our world and how we handle social problems. For me this was a top priority for the fabric of our culture. And while I agree that racial justice should encompass domestic violence, there is a huge paradigm shift to be had here. Violence is used as the leading disciplinary action in many low income and minority homes. It occurs between men and women in every stratus of the social system. Violence for me is the issue that makes us aqueisce to war. We believe in it. We see the power in it. And this belief is played out in homes all across america, with women and children being most heavily injured and killed. The damage goes across the board to all of us.

So, I had my reasons for supporting Clinton and overlooking some of her lesser attributes. I am ready to get behind Obama but I understand the pain. And I think he should be speaking up very loudly right now!! Even if the battle has not been put to bed, he can start by aknowledging his voting record and deciding to do better. He can say, I will take up this fight for all women.

There is nothing to stop him from grabbing national headlines and making it clear that this is his intention. Some of these women don’t know it has to do with domestic violence funding, they just know intuitively that Bill and Hillary DID understand this peice. They made lots of other mistakes, but they got this.

Validation, validation, validation. It’s the grease that lubricates the tube to the other side of the paradigm. Always. It works.

Probably. In fact, even if Obama does not offer her the VP, I believe she will vote for him. But, right now, she is one upset octogenarian.

My observations, which are taken from my field canvassing, were that a vast majority of the Clinton supporters I contacted simply felt that Clinton was the more viable choice for November. The more politically engaged minority seemed to feel a strong emotional tie, while the less politicaly engaged majority simply felt it was the more logical choice. Many of the latter seemed drawn to Obama but felt that due to his race it was not the best choice to make. In no way did these voters act like they wouldn’t support him personally in November because of this calculation, but they were afraid that others might not.

I expect Obama’s poll numbers versus McCain to surge after the obvious stark choice between the two becomes hard reality.

Frank, that should be posted at TalkLeft. Thank you. Great point.

I think there are probably a combination of reasons. First and foremost, unlike Dean, Clinton herself has stayed in it, and her strategy for staying in it has been based, not just on claims that she’s better and more qualified than Obama, but claims that he’s actually an empty suit, has fought dirty, etc. etc. — IOW, the sort of thing that keeps supporters fired, pissed off and convinced that their candidate has been robbed.

Actually, I suppose that’s not first and foremost. First and foremost has to be the fact that Hillary Clinton is the first viable woman candidate and is, in her own right, enormously capable. I tend to lose sight of that fact, because I’ve just never been all that enthusiastic about her anyway. But if I think about it, I can see that she really is very, very capable. Maybe if we focus on that fact we can find it easier to understand the passion of her supporters — difficult as people like this Harriet Christian make that. And that, in turn, will hopefully make it easier to do whatever we need to do to help out our fellow Dems.

A third thing to keep in mind is that I don’t think we really know how many Hillary supporters combine understandably passionate support with some of the less attractive things we’ve seen from some Hillary supporters. Harriet Christian, for example, gets awfully close to sounding racist. It’s hard to say whether she is or isn’t — and whether she could’ve kept those feelings down to a more manageable level were she not so convinced Hillary’s been robbed.

Thanks for the post. It certainly gives air to the disappointment and anger but I hate that pundits and other folks are using these legitimate feelings of anger to drive a wedge in the party (via aim your anger at the other dem candidate)

As to the feminist argument. When the argument stops being about EQUALITY for all, feminism ain’t part of the argument anymore.

You know, I keep hearing that point…that Obama is the less viable or whatever. and what gets lost is that dems have had RECORD turnout for primaries.

I realize that some may stay home if their candidate is not nominated, but still, there is an equally palpable blowback on the Bush III option. IMHO.

Mike, thank you for the thoughtful piece. We ALL do some kool-aid drinking from our candidates and at times some snarky demonizing of the other side.

I am a woman who came of age when I had four options: wife and mother, teacher, nurse and/or secretary. I am from NY and felt like Hillary was doing her homework as a senator. But knew about the war chest and the horizon goal of president. To get into the game a woman or any politician has to tow the … well with cops it is a blue line… whatever color line it is with pols.

They say Repubs fall in line, and Dems fall in love in order to commit to their candidate. I was slow on the draw with Dean, though respected his honesty, but managed to fall in love with Edwards and feel discouraged with his withdrawal. And that took the 5 stages of grief to process that the Hill supporters will need, themselves.

Edwards did not have the baggage Hill was hauling from Bill’s presidency, though she had the recognition perks of that. And the test of stamina.

My issues with Hillary are that she has lost too much yin (the feminist ideals of harmony and communication and partnership) and gone yang in surviving in the political game, and been playing the game in this crazymaking, cold, cruel patriarchal universe. She was in a paradoxical bind for sure.

I think the die-hard following of SOME women for her has taught her and us that womanhood is powerful. I hope it has made Hillary embrace her womanness and respect this group of loyalists. I heard years ago a big corporate honcho admit that the best run organization in the country was the girl scouts. Get a bunch of women working together and they can do anything he said.

I hope Obama has stamina and a strong spine. He will need it. He has proven that to me thus far, though like most of us, I pray he is the person I am projecting my hope and trust to. Ironically, he hasn’t had to sacrifice his “yin” for yang … though the macho types are already pegging him as weak on national security because he asserts the value of communicating with our “enemies”. Oy vey.

I thought that those of us who could choose beyond our bonds with race or gender were evolved in appreciating that appeal but going for something even more. Yet appreciating too this country was ready to entertain the idea and reality of a black man or a woman at the helm. That is indeed progress.

I hope Hillary will be the leader her constituency deserves. None of us or most of us don’t have an opportunity to get close up and personal with these people. Watching Edwards fuss over his hair on youtube gave me pause but did not wetblanket my support. Listening and reading his take on the issues inspired me.

We are at the mercy of the MSM a lot, the alternate media, the wisdom of the candidates’ operatives, and the very human human beings running and who are often not forgiven for being human, even by themselves at times, which is most dangerous. They will need their sense of humor and sense of the ridiculousness and humility.

Again, I appreciate the “partnership” empathetic tone to your article. Thank you.

I have been thinking about what I am about to say for months. My concern is that I can actually articulate my feelings. My mom who is 79 is a smart, aware southern democrat. She is a passionate Clinton supporter. Even before hearing her reasons for opposing Obama my gut feeling was “My mom is a subtle racist and doesn’t know it.” A lot of her upbringing was about class and race. She can see in Obama an equal in terms of class. But the race part is confusing to her. She was taught never to look a black man in the eye, never acknowledge a black man. She was The Mom and The Wife. Now she wants a woman to be The President. Her feelings are a jumble and she has teased out the best possible outcome for her by supporting Clinton. A lot of her feelings are the product of denying who she was to stay were she is-in a culture that pushed her brain to the back of the room. This is competition between the oppressed.

I love my mom.

Frank, that should be posted at TalkLeft. Thank you. Great point.

I haven’t been over there lately, but feel free to cross-post it.

(And no, I’m not avoiding that site. I read it a lot during the Plame trial, but it wasn’t “regular viewing” for me after that.)

Issues of feminism and sexism were only raised by the Clinton campaign after she started losing. As for her being treated unfairly by the press, it’s a good reason to be critical of the media but not a good one to lash out against Obama. With lapel pins and the Reverend Wright, it’s not like Obama hasn’t had a lot of cheap shots directed at him. Much of the diviseness that now marks the campaign has been introduced by Clinton herself. It didn’t have to be this way but it is what she chose. What I have seen of Clinton is that she continually throws grenades into the process and then with all the hypocrisy of a Joseph Lieberman declares how she is the one being mistreated and how the rest of us need to make nice to her. I believe the Democratic Party needs to be united but that unity is hard to achieve with Clinton sabotaging it at every turn and persisting in a campaign that she must have known she lost months ago.

Did you vote for Kerry in ‘04?

If you did, then you have already negated your argument that HRC’s vote on the AUMG is the most important issue of all.

A great mothering and fathering moment caught on tape…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dj298NRTO8

…or what Democrats will feel like after the primary season is over.

It is important not to take away from the legitimate anger/rage and dissappointment that her supporters have. It must be acknowledged and from there we have to bring them into the fold with compassion (listening to their wishes, etc.)

Thanks, Mike, for a very perceptive take.

What I wonder, after reading this, is whether there is any way to arrange the “optics” to help (some of) the Harriets believe that Obama “gets” the underlying feminist issues.

I know that there’s never going to be any getting around the “it was our turn and they took it away from us” sentiment. I also know that it’s dangerous territory for any of us burdened with a Y chromosome to claim any level of feminist understanding. But I think it’s very likely that Obama “gets it” about as well as any man can. I would imagine that he learned about “it” from his mother, and that he gets regular booster shots from Michelle.

We lefty-blog-ites like to point out the uses of “dog-whistle” signaling on the Right — politicians and pundits who use subtly coded language to tell the super-wingnuts in their audiences that they “get it” (where in the case of the Right, “it” is racism, nativism or Christianism). Aren’t there equally subtle, but similarly effective, turns of phrase that Obama and the campaign can use to let Harriet Christian know that an Obama presidency won’t leave her and her (valid) concerns hanging out to dry?

Sidenote: Did you see Ruturd Murdoch is going after Olbermann now by sending people to harass him at home and having the NY Post publish his home address?

If true, I think it’s safe to say that KO won’t take it lying down.

Note to BillO – “This isn’t going to turn out well at all.”

And look around… How many women do you know in your lives that have been discarded by their husbands after they’ve given everything to the man?

It actually works both ways. Men get discarded by women too.

The more politically engaged minority seemed to feel a strong emotional tie, while the less politicaly engaged majority simply felt it was the more logical choice. Many of the latter seemed drawn to Obama but felt that due to his race it was not the best choice to make.

So, in small words I can understand, explain to me how this is different from people who are afraid HRC is not viable because she has ovaries?

BC

This too. I’m just saying that there’s tons of reasons why people don’t like Hillary. That doesn’t mean she wasn’t the victim of women-hating.

Hillary supported the use of cluster bombs, which disproportionately kill and maim children. So Clinton’s work for children and families is situational: they have to be Americans

Terrific post, thank you.

… and to make them realize that there is much work to be done to have their issues dealt with, regardless who the nominee or POTUS may be …

Sadly, those feelings have been inflamed by many to the detriment of the party.

Please quit flinging poo … it is beneath the dignity of this blog …

These are not equivalent. Barack has had an unbeatable lead in the pledged delegate count since Wisconsin. African Americans would have a justifiable right to be pissed if Barack won the contest for pledged delegates but then was not supported by the party elite for whatever reason. That is a pretty basic issue of justice to me.

Harriet really doesn’t present a pretty picture of the “Clinton supporter”, and while I don’t really believe she is a representative example, by tomorrow a million people will have seen the youtube clip.

When faced with the prospect of standing up to be counted with Harriet, or supporting the Democratic Nominee, what will most Clinton supporters choose?

Oh, spare me all of this.

It’s long past time for an African American, but not the likes of a Harold Ford.

It’s long past time for a Jew, but not the likes of a Joe Lieberman.

And it’s long past time for a woman, but not the likes of a Hillary Clinton.

If I’m not racist or anti-Semitic for citing the first two examples, I’ll be damned if anyone labels me sexist for citing the third.

I’m proudly prejudiced against war-mongering DLC triangulators (at least when offered even a slightly more progressive alternative, which is all I consider Obama to be). As a progressive New Yorker, I’ve been assiduously even-handed in my disgust for both Clinton and Schumer. She’s earned my contempt, no more and no less than Chuck, on the goddamned merits, period.

exactly. I have never seen Hillary as a feminist (her record says otherwise)but I respect her supporters, I really do. We are a party of inclusion, not exclusion and i want them to know and feel that they are welcome (it’s their party too)

Ralph Nader?!?!

I used to support Hillary, but lately I’ve been thinking she’s gone too far. She lost me with her “gas tax holiday”. And she’s really losing me with this convention stuff. I think she should drop out, but I can’t tell if that’s because I really feel that way, or just because everyone is saying she should. I mean, what do I care if she stays until the convention? Let them count all the votes, if that’s what she wants. She can lose then. That’s fine with me.

This four delegate thing that her people are fighting over is beyond stupid. The four delegates won’t make her win, and the whole thing just pisses everyone off, on both sides.

My snarky nom de guerre reply over at TexasDarlin to her latest gem (I’m sure they won’t post my comment):

$1 Million for the “Whitey” Tape
June 2, 2008 · No Comments

READ THIS POST FOR INFORMATION ABOUT COLLECTING $1 MILLION.

The No Quarter blog is experiencing an extraorindary volume of traffic and is difficult to access, so I am re-posting this notice here.

There is a currently an offer from a billionaire to pay one million dollars to anyone who produces the tape of Michelle Obama using the word “whitey.” According to Larry Johnson at No Quarter, Michelle rails against “whitey” while sitting on a panel with Louis Farrakhan. Presumably this tape is in the hands of GOP operatives and, as reported by FOX yesterday, also in the possession of at least one news network.

ANYONE WHO HAS THE TAPE AND WANTS A MILLION DOLLARS SHOULD CONTACT:
Susanunpc@gmail.com

Categories: Uncategorized
Tagged: 1 million dollars, fox news, larry johnson, michelle obama, no quarter, tape, whitey

0 RESPONSES SO FAR ↓
Boomer // June 2, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Is this billionaire an ex-official from Nigeria perhaps? Did you get the request in an email?

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

LOL.

Mike,
Great post! A lot is going to ride on who Obama picks as his VP. I don’t think it will be Hillary, but it will have to be someone that is known to support women’s issues.

we are anonymous

Yes, Hugh.

Thank you for this thoughtful post, Mike. As one of “Hillary’s demographic” I hope for the unity.

But I look at the pattern, and see the unity efforts being rebuffed by the likes of Icky Harold as was done re the Michigan delegation’s distribution. And I see foreshadowing of subtle sabotage coming from that side.

Won’t work.

1,861 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

This last gasp argument that Mrs.M*Clinton’s campaign pits women against men and Blacks is a Rovian tactic that exposes just where M*Clinton’s politics are and how she views a constituency as a tool to be used to acquire power at the expense of principle. I have ALWAYS considered M*Clinton supporters to be intelligent and honestly motivated by at least SOME Democratic Party core values. They should be treated as intelligent and honest Democrats regardless of whether or not they behave as petulant adolescents at the behest of their candidate.

Now all of that said, this is NOT to argue for negotiation or for some display of personal recognition for a candidate. If in fact Mrs. M*Clinton is a Democrat and if she and her supporters share core values with other Democrats and if they share the concern that a majority of Americans do about the prospect of another 4 years of fascism, then they should accept the verdict of the primary voters (caucuses and elections) and step behind the nominee. If, on the other hand, the M*Clinton candidacy is not about what’s better for the people of the country but what’s good for the once and future empress of the DLC, then “she who should be forever nameless” should be expected to demand some expression of fealty from the winner.

Look, this is NOT about what’s good for a candidate or a cadre of out of date aparachiks, this is about what’s good for the people of the United States…when has it EVER been politic for the winner to pay obeisance to the loser especially before the loser concedes fealty to the winner??!! Jesus that is doin’ what the M8Clintons have done for over 16 years, turn common sense and honor upside down!

Let’s give the women of this country who support Mrs. M8Clinton the respect they are do, they can refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee because they do not share all or some of his core values and policies or they can refuse to vote for him because they have been bamboozled into thinkin’ that this is about “us against them” or more specifically about one candidate over another. Make no mistake, Mrs. M*Clinton has been willing to advance the notion that those against her are misogynists, she has also been willing to use the dog whistles of racism and if those who support her believe that then they are not as smart or as honest as I give them credit. But to compromise in anyway that lends one lick of spit to those arguments is to compromise away the Democratic Party and this fall’s election.

Finally, we can use quick and honest reconciliation and it is up to the loser to concede gracefully before the winner accepts the support gratefully…anything else is transparently dishonest and doesn’t give the supporters of the loser the integrity and individual respect to make their own choice without bein’ told what to do.

I have always had my hand out to those who support my candidate’s opponent and I offer it today, standin straight up, not on my knees in supplication, the supporters of Mrs. M*Clinton can accept it in the spirit it is offered or not. But let’s be clear, the Democratic Party can win this election without the support of the Junior Senator from New York and even without a significant portion of her supporters. There are 1 million to 1.5 million new voters ready to put their mark behind the Democratic nominee…it is time to grow up people!

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T GIVE UP THE FARM IN RETURN FOR A FEW CHICKENS!!

Okay but the point is now that the primary has all but ended, how do we unite the party around our candidate? I equally had issues with her war vote and have never supported her as a candidate because of it but it will not serve the party to tell millions of impassioned supporters to suck it up. They are disaapointed and angry and the focus of that anger is on thier own (party). No one is saying that you have to agree with them but we have to give them voice and let them know that what and how they fellis legitimate

Maybe my experience is skewed a bit from having worked in Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky, with most of it being in Indiana. I get caught up in statistics sometimes, but I think the following is instructive:

Turnout for the open Democratic Indiana primary was 132% of the total November election vote for Kerry in 2004, the highest such ratio of all primaries. No doubt, as exit polling confirmed, 10% of this was from Operation Chaos votes for Clinton, so maybe 120% is a more accurate figure. At the same time this would mean that without Operation Chaos support Clinton would have lost by 5% at least.

Current polling suggests that Indiana is as in play in November for the Democrats as Virginia is. Simply having to campaign at all in Indiana is disaster enough for the Repugs, let alone the very definite chance of losing here. Obama makes this extremely possible.

And she’s really losing me with this convention stuff. I think she should drop out,…

I saw Harold Ickes on the teevee today acknowledging that HRC is saying that if Obama reaches “the number” (2,118?) of delegates, he wins and she’s through, though paradoxically he wouldn’t rule out an appeal of some sort carried to the convention.

hello Mike Stark !

and mad thanks for a very thoughtful post. gonna have to chew on it for a while as I tend to think first of the more rabid HRC supporters and not folks like your wife.

the difference between us and the Republics – staring us all in the face on this thread – thoughtful self-examination.

ps to Mike – been chuckling a lot lately at the mere thought of you attending a McSame event – something tells me there’s a picture of you in his war room :D

reconsiliation?

Democrats wanted a candidate who didn’t vote for Bush’s damnable war, having seen how that pro-war vote hobbled our candidate in 2004. That’s what we’ve got. Now let’s make it work.

My three favorite candidates are long ago by the wayside. I’ll work hard to elect our nominee, who I don’t think stole the nomination from any of my choices.

Party reconciliation will follow from our party’s leadership — let’s get on with the healing, starting at the top. Wednesday morning, if you please. All candidates, all party leaders, all supporters.

McCain must be stopped. The fate of the world literally hangs in the balance.

Thanks for this sensitive and thoughtful post, Mike.

Both sides have engaged in self righteous indignation … the question leading up to November is whether can they put aside their few differences and focus on their many common values …

Yeah, Ickes should shut the Hell up. He’s not doing Hillary any favors. He sounds like an ambulance chaser lawyer.

i want him to reach “the number” +4, so they can STFU about MI.

Simply having to campaign at all in Indiana is disaster enough for the Repugs, let alone the very definite chance of losing here. Obama makes this extremely possible.

They are definitely considering making a run at Indiana, if for no other reason than to eat up Republican campaign dollars.

Paraphrasing what Howard Dean said yesterday, we do this because it’s not about any one of us, or the candidates we support. It’s about our county, our district, our state, our country — and every single one of us in our group has been committed since we first joined our efforts in 2004 to take our country back. I’m very sorry you haven’t see this kind of effort so far, because such collaboration between camps can and does happen.

This was part of a comment Rayne posted on Sunday.

To repeat and re-emphasize, it’s not about any of us as individuals, it’s about all of us, and by extension, the world.

Thank you, Mike for an outstanding and compassionate post.

Did you vote for Kerry in ‘04?

If you did, then you have already negated your argument that HRC’s vote on the AUMG is the most important issue of all.

The AUMF vote is certainly one aspect of all this. There is also Clinton’s support for the war for more than 3 years. And there is her refusal to apologize for her AUMF vote.

You totally make me cry sometimes.

Where’s all the sympathy for Biden, Richardson, Kucinich, etc.? They didn’t make it to the finish line, either.

I’m African American, and if Sen. Obama had lost the nomination, I’d be pissed but wouldn’t have dreamed of voting for McCain.

And, I don’t need a lecture in feminism. I deplore all forms of discrimination equally.

A lot of this disenchantment from the Clintons comes from a sense of entitlement; a sense that this was their’s for the taking.

So now they will have to console themselves with the millions in the bank (and the millions yet to come), a Senate seat, and memories of eight years in the White House.

She lost. Tough beans. Maybe she should’ve planned on running a campaign after Feb. 5th.

In a good way?

Apparently, there’s a tape of McCain complaining about a bowl of soup at a restaurant. He goes on and on about three dollars being too much for a bowl of soup. He tried to send it back, but then his dentures fell in the soup and the waitress, who he referred to as “honey”, refused. Then he asked for more crackers three times, asked them to turn the music down and left a tiny tip.

i want him to reach “the number” +4, so they can STFU about MI.

Good point, but I don’t know that, with regard to Ickes, you need the +4 qualifier. Harold Ickes should just STFU, period.

Well yeah- and bein outspent 3.7 to 1 might have made a difference too?

Oh, spare me all of this.

What ralphbon said!

Great post. You put your finger on the problem for Mrs Clinton’s supporters. Here’s my problem. I supported Edwards. When he dropped out I was slightly in favour of Clinton because of her presumed experience, or more accurately, because we were also re-electing her husband, which was always the basis of her campaign when you get to the bottom of it. I didn’t think Obama was ready for prime time, despite his undoubted capacity to move people, which she lacked.

But as the campaign unfolded I found myself drifting towards Obama. She seemed more and more mechanical, and less appealing. I wondered whether when elected — I have no doubt that she would have been elected — she could have led the country. It would have been a close election, like the two her husband won, and she would not have the even grudging assent of a large part of the population. She would have been a weak president, vulnerable on the right flank, which means she would have a hard time drawing down the Iraq Occupation and undoing the damage done to the American constitution at DHS and DOJ.

Women’s rights are important, but at this point, they have to take second place to more fundamental rights — the right of habeas corpus, for example. Until that right is unequivocally restored, and voting rights are once again secured for all citizens, everything else is frosting on the cake. Mrs. Clinton would have been too vulnerable to right-wing attacks to do much on these fronts.

That was exactly my point. Whether it’s Clinton or Obama supporters the “cult of personality” is dangerous. It’s that mind set that has given us the current Republican Party.

The money goes where it thinks it will make a difference, ie. to the winner. Hillary may get the popular vote, but the money is on Obama. And the money puts him way, way over McCain too. So, if you’re cynical, you might say that the November election has already been decided by those who pull the strings.

Mike, you wrote:

I don’t know how to fix things. But I do suspect that the party is going to have problems with a lot of women who really believe it was their turn if we don’t make extraordinary efforts to empathize with them.

The empathy of abusers, and Hillary has been abused by you all, is not empathy, abusers have very little of that, it is manipulation, a role abusers are comfortable in, and which Hillary supporters see through very clearly.

Then he asked for more crackers three times, asked them to turn the music down and left a tiny tip.

Was he also catching the “Early Bird Special”?

We will be making this happen with enthusiasm and ferocity. Another likely not understood factor is that Indiana’s current deployment in Iraq is much higher than it has been during the entire war, no doubt due to craven Bush administration electoral calculations. Add that to the crushing economic problems that are not alleviating at all, and the recipe for Repug electoral disaster is complete. Repug demoralization in their reliable Indiana fortress is very very high.

Beautifully said Citizen ralphbon…right ot the heart of it!

OT – Sen. Kennedy’s surgery being reported as “successful”.

If Hillary asks you to vote for Obama, would you follow her request ?

Nice comment.

I went Biden –> Edwards –> Hillary –> Obama (the last move being based in large measure on stuff like “sniper fire” and “hardworking white Americans” etc).

My wife and I caucused for Hillary here in NV.

When have Democrats stuck with a candidate who was unlikely to win the nomination this late in the process? How about when Sen. Obama supporter Sen. Ted Kennedy ran in 1980 or when Jesse Jackson ran in 1988. What is it about Sen. Clinton’s ongoing campaign that is so mind boggling to you Obama supporters?

I see in your update you’ve backed off your suggestion that Hillary’s support is just a manifestation of emotional women, “for all intents and purposes, she’s been an also-ran since Super Tuesday…” Clinton arguably will end the process nearly as many or slightly more votes than Obama. She is about 5% behind among “pledged delegates” while Super Delegates make up 20% of the total convention delegation.

Mike Stark you tell us:

Everyone knows, deep down, that Barack Obama won this contest playing by the rules.

Actually I’ve believed Barack Obama is on the brink of winning this thing because he has been the darling throughout this process of the MSM leader, corporate giant General Electric. John Edwards became my preferred candidate in October because he was obviously the candidate the MSM most wanted to crush. Edwards voted for the war authorization too but I made an allowance for that.

Mike Stark, you might want to leave the fence mending to someone who does not come off as patronizing as you do here.

When I had a friend listen (over the phone) to the crazy Harriet video, she just couldn’t believe the woman wasn’t a republican plant. It’s been very disturbing to see the emergence of the Harriet Christian types. I recently watched “The World According to Garp” after many years and the Ellen Jamesians & Harriet Christian crowd juxtaposed in my head immediately.
I try to understand their red hot anger but it hardly seems productive, imo. It seems like “bite off your nose to spite your face” behavior.
I’m hoping for some calming in this tornado of strong emotions.

i missed the zed

If Clinton had won, I would have held my nose and supported her, just as I did for Bill Clinton (twice) and just as I will (with only slightly less tightly clamped nostrils) for Obama. I see no reason not to tell Clinton’s supporters to suck it up and vote for Obama, given the horrific alternative. Or are you saying that because of the gender issue, we need to handle Clinton supporters more…delicately? That would be a true double standard.

IMO, the first step towards reconciliation is to dispense with the meme “Think about it: when is the last time you saw so many people remain committed to a candidate this far beyond what should have been the bitter end?” and admit that this primary is, by historical standards, a photo finish. Plenty of losing campaigns with many fewer delegates, proportionately, that Clinton’s have gone on to the convention. They have a perfect right and lots of precedent to do so. As to the why, there’s lots of good political reasons for a losing candidate to take their delegate bloc to the convention that have nothing to do with vanity. There’s the party platform committee, for one. The idea that Team Clinton, with just under 50% of the delegate count, should just sit down and STFU, is grossly naive and darn’ insulting to her partisans who, after all, are in this for policy as well as personality reasons (remember universal healthcare anyone?). When Obama fans start showing as much respect for HRC and her many (many!) supporters as their candidate himself has, then the healing can begin.

Of course. I should have said.

It is incredible that Obama enjoyed such a money advantage- presumably he will carry that into the general.

I see a bit of irrational exuberance about the general….there are no data available that shows the race in November to be anything but razor thin….I’m a bit worried about overconfidence amnong dems.

Repug demoralization in their reliable Indiana fortress is very very high.

I know – I’m in Indianapolis.

Blue Texan has a brand new post up and ready entitled: “McCain Parrots Neocon Lie About Iran For AIPAC Crowd”

Women’s rights are fundamental rights. I cannot imagine thinking otherwise.

Mike,
Thanks for this post. I do have specific reasons for supporting Obama rather than Hillary, but my fiancee, a Filipino woman, supports Hillary. I haven’t put my Obama sticker on my car yet out of deference to her feelings.

It is a pity that two trend-breaking candidates had to run against each other.

Bob in HI

Oh yeah, hello again, my fault for not remembering.

Hillary has been abused by you all

See, this is where your argument fails.

Sen. Clinton has not been abused by me. She has been criticized, and that comes with the territory.

Please separate legitimate criticism from misogyny.

There is a difference.

I’m not worried. I don’t think McCain has a chance. I’m not sure he’s even going to make it to the election.

I’m not disputing that. It’s just that the freedom not to be thrown in jail and held indefinitely with no charges and no ability to appeal to a judge for relief is more fundamental.

Montana
Obama 48, Clinton 44

South Dakota
Clinton 60, Obama 34

pollster.com

heavens no. i just know that when folks feel wronged and that wrong (whether any of us thinkit’s an actual wrong) is not acknowledged, those feelings can deepen and turn into something worse. not to mention if there is a perception that Obama supporters or the party has turned their back on these supporters, we all lose in the end. It’s not about kissing up or giving them a soothing cup of tea and a cookie, it’s about being compassionate and inviting them into the fold with that compassion. that’s all.

If McBush can win Ohio and Florida- he can win the election…I believe he’s leading in both currently.

I’m sorry but I really, really, really just don’t get this idea that either the Clinton or Obama supporters would rather vote for Mc Bush than whomever the Democratic nominee is in the event it’s not their “guy.” Probably because I started out a Edward’s supporter and my ‘guy’ lost what seems to be a long time ago and I’m already onto my second choice.

This election is way too important to throw a hissy fit worthy of a two year old if you don’t get your way. Senator Clinton started out the “inevitable nominee’ with all the name recognition, money and party support and you know what? She still lost! I’m sorry but that’s the way it is. Life isn’t fair children. Grow up. Egad, I sound just like my parents!

As an Obama supporter there is no way, for the record, that I would vote for anybody but the Democratic nominee for President of the United States. It’s just too deadly a risk to our country to do anything else. It is time to put party and country over personal feelings. Anyone who would help John Sidney McCain III get elected would have to live with blood on their hands.

Actually I’ve believed Barack Obama is on the brink of winning this thing because he has been the darling throughout this process of the MSM leader, corporate giant General Electric.

There is a certain upside-downism to this argument. Clinton is the one that went with the traditional big corporate and union donors. Obama was successful because he was able to attract a lot of new and young voters and his campaigning has been so much larger than hers because he received huge amounts of money from millions of small contributors. So how all of a sudden Obama is the corporate candidate mystifies me.

In a good way.

I am a 55-year-old woman. I am not rich. I have 3 children. I was a single mother (drunk husband) for most of my childrens’ growing-up years. No child support. Yes, I know the drill. But that does NOT mean I am stupid.

I didn’t loathe Hillary at first. I was neutral. But I have come to loathe Hillary — you know the reasons. Mostly the constant LIES.

Electing Hillary will NOT move women forward. It will put them way back. THAT is why I am strongly against Hillary. Just the common mantra, “This is the ONLY chance we have for a female president in my lifetime!!!!” Unless you are 70 years old, why say such a stupid thing? YOU are the one suggesting that women are weak. Not me. I say that a woman could be president in 2016. And I don’t want to hear the worn-out line, “There aren’t any women of Hillary’s standing to be able to be president for a long time.” YOU are the woman-hater. There are tons of female senators (state and national), female governors. What of them? If their HUSBAND wasn’t a POTUS, they can’t win? YOU are the ones claiming a woman can’t win on her own.

I simply cannot see how any female could be for Hillary.

McCain is leading precisely because the Dems have wasted 2 months and many millions fighting each other … his lead will evaporate quicker that the Budget Surplus did, thanks to Bush, once the GE officially gets under way …

Good post. But honestly, I don’t know how this will resolve itself. If a logical arguments will not work (vote McCain and watch the clock tick backwards), then we are left will emotional ones and people can’t change others emotions. I started off indifferent between the two, but found myself supporting Obama. As a woman what I have never been able to understand is how this sexism has been Obama’s fault. That is what I need to hear in order to be truly understanding. Upset at the media perhaps, yes at times. But Obama himself? That is what I still fail to grasp. Is voting for McCain punishing him? the party who let him run? the country in general for voting for him? In order to heal, I think the anger needs to be directed at a valid target not just vengeful for its own sake. Because that is a lot of what I am hearing.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. On the contrary I am trying to find a way for the feelings to be channeled which are not destructive to all our goals.

We’ll see. But I think nearly everyone is fed up with Republicans, and he’s lost everything he had going for him. Even Republicans say he “drank the kool-aid” of Bush. Selling out of everything. They might try to fix Iraq, and that could help him, but no one’s going to fanatically get behind him like they did Bush.

Over at HRC places like TexasDarlin, any HRC criticism is reflexively and angrily viewed at “misogynist”, “sexist”, “hate speech”, and “Obama thuggery.”

That one stumped me as well …

If Hillary asks you to vote for Obama, would you follow her request ?

No, I would not, and if you were to read the pro-Clinton bloggers and Commenters, you would know that that determination is prevalent.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I, for one, have never called her out of her name but I have been critical of her war vote and refusal to acknowledge that it was an error of judgement. that is not abuse, it is criticism. I do not deny that there are many that have let their criticism of her become personal but it is not fair to paint us all wit that brush.

I am an ferverent supporter of equal rights for all. that means equal opportunity for women and men of all ethnicities, religion, sexual preference, etc. This was never about feminism for me (personally) as Hillary was not a feminist but her presidency became a feminist cause (for some at least).

I undeerstand the disappointment and anger but want her supporters to unite with us behind the nominee so that we can ensure that it is a dem in the WH come January.

1,861 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen marymccumin:

“Women’s rights are fundamental rights.”

Yes indeed, and all true Democrats share your belief. Now what the hell does that have to do with whether or not M*Clinton supporters should vote for Obama in the fall?

I’m waitin’ for you to explain exactly how this race has been about gender and race without disrespecting the very folks from which you are demanding respect? If you have been convinced by a very clever and ambitious politician that she and ONLY she is the candidate that respects women’s rights then there is no further discussion. You will get acceptance and recognition if you let go of the Rovian Kool Aide you’ve swallowed…give the supporters of Obama the same respect you demand of the.

Or not…it’s your choice not ours.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION THIS BATTLE IS OVER, LET’S GET ON WITH THE WAR!!!

Ohio is actually tied, but Obama is behind in Florida. By November he’ll have both solidly.

I doubt it. Not in numbers sufficient to have any impact by November.

I don’t believe those … SD especially .. as it would be a reversal of last week

gud! :)

I guess it depends on how far back you go. The right for women to cast the vote was only in 1920. I can remember being disallowed for a mortgage in the early 80’s cause I was female. That is economic bondage. Not being seen is cultural bondage. How a country treats it’s women and children relates directly to how all are treated. The the right of habeas corpus can extend into being a prisoner in your own society. Now you see me. Now you don’t.

No mas!

I can understand where your wife, and other women, are coming from, but I don’t agree with the underlying premise.

The premise seems to be that Clinton lost because of mysogyny and has nothing (or less) to do with policy. I don’t buy that.

I would like to see a woman as president too, but am I mysoginist if I don’t want that woman to be Elaine Chao?

Would I be a racist if I didn’t support Alan Keyes for president, or Bobby Jindal? An anti-semite if I didn’t want Joe Lieberman for President?

I can’t speak for others, but for me it’s more “I don’t want that particular woman to be president”.

How can you be a Hillary supporter when you won’t follow her lead ?

It’s all about “ME” for a lot of people.

rw – you are always right on about outcomes – but I disagree with you and don’t think it is irrational exhuberance on my part -

I wait on people 6 days a week, central texans, many of whom have never voted dem let alone african american dem – but I hear it more and more everyday – even heard some redneck on saturday tellin’ his friends he was gonna vote for that “Obama boy” .

it’s only june and most folks have figured out the noble experiment is up on blocks in the driveway – can’t imagine what it will be like in November. I’m thinkin’ McSame will be lucky to get 40%

many of our predictions are based on the current environment – with no one campaigning against McPappy – the Obama campaign has issued a few flashes of that in the last few weeks and I suspect some of the prognosticators will be singing a different tune once the dogpile proper commences :D

They are conflating two things here. They may have shown an Obama bias in the primaries, but what does that really mean? Do you really think Tweety is not going to swoon over McCain’s supposed manliness(his Aqua Velva smell)? Just because KO is on Obama’s side(though I think KO just wants a Dem in the WH)?

… and there are many trolls around …

Yet it is also startling to see how quickly Obama’s senatorship has been woven into the web of institutionalized influence-trading that afflicts official Washington. He quickly established a political machine funded and run by a standard Beltway group of lobbyists, P.R. consultants, and hangers-on. For the staff post of policy director he hired Karen Kornbluh, a senior aide to Robert Rubin when the latter, as head of the Treasury Department under Bill Clinton, was a chief advocate for NAFTA and other free-trade policies that decimated the nation’s manufacturing sector (and the organized labor wing of the Democratic Party). Obama’s top contributors are corporate law and lobbying firms (Kirkland & Ellis and Skadden, Arps, where four attorneys are fund-raisers for Obama as well as donors), Wall Street financial houses (Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase), and big Chicago interests (Henry Crown and Company, an investment firm that has stakes in industries ranging from telecommunications to defense). Obama immediately established a “leadership PAC,” a vehicle through which a member of Congress can contribute to other politicians’ campaigns—and one that political reform groups generally view as a slush fund through which congressional leaders can evade campaign-finance rules while raising their own political profiles.

(Harper’s magazine 2006)

I am not a Hillary support. I wasn’t speaking about Hillary. I was speaking to the feeling that women’s rights are not as fundamental as other rights. That is all.

Bingo!!

True, that.

Some are speculating that Harriet The DNC Screech Woman Christian from Noooo Yawk was a Repu’ublicist plant.

I agree with you. I am 52 and male, liked the good parts of the Clinton administration, am supportive of women in positions or power and authority; So you think I would be a natural supporter. No, I started out neutral and progressed from there to strongly dislike. She, personally, has done too many things to recite here that have caused me to believe that she would be a disaster as President. It’s not because she is a woman, it’s because she is a Clinton.

I’m certainly not saying that McBush is in the lead- but I think we should all be prepared for the possibility of a tougher race than expected.

The Repugs and Rove have had a lot of fun stirring up the anger in both campaigns …

Exactly! Voting for her JUST because she is a woman is horribly sexist.

I tend to think differently on this point… I think there is a cult of people out there that might not have gone to the polls this year, but would turn out in DROVES to vote AGAINST Clinton, they hate her THAT much.

Ding.

Right, so just because Obama won the primary contest in a completely fair way, never resorting to sexism to do it, female Clinton supporters feel they now have to vote for a 71-year-old white man who calls his wife a “c word” and would destroy abortion rights. That’s fucking ridiculous.

Personally I have no idea what to say to such avid Clinton fans. Never understood them well enough before, and don’t now either. This argument has been taking place on two entirely different planes, the political plane for Obama supporters, and an entitlement/emotional plane for Clinton supporters. That is why the discussions between the two do not connect, it’s like trying to hold a conversation between people who aren’t speaking the same language.

Which is why the Repu’ublicists want her.

And Clinton doesn’t know any lobbyists, fat cat donors or anything about influence peddling? Come on, be real. The Clinton’s wrote the book on influence peddling.

Breaking (HuffPo):

Hillary Clinton has summoned top donors and backers to attend her speech tomorrow night in an unusual move that is being widely interpreted to mean she plans to suspend her campaign and endorse Barack Obama.

Obama and Clinton spoke Sunday night and agreed that their staffs should begin negotiations over post-primary activities. In addition to help raising money to pay off some $20 million-plus in debts, Clinton is known to want Obama to help out black officials who endorsed her and are now taking constituent heat, including, in some cases, primary challenges from pro-Obama politicians.

“This has never happened before,” one donor said, referring to the personalized request by email to attend the event in New York Tuesday night.

Obama is expected to claim enough votes to put him over the top that night at a separate event in Minneapolis.

She wants money.

Hillary has been abused by you all

See, this is where your argument fails.

Sen. Clinton has not been abused by me. She has been criticized, and that comes with the territory.

Please separate legitimate criticism from misogyny.

There is a difference.

It may be that my definition of misogyny includes your definition of criticism, a typical problem in the patriarchal sea we all live in.

Is Obama supposed to set up new institutions for everything? Does anyone really believe a freshman Senator is going to hire rookies for all his staff?

1,861 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen rwcole and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Here it comes now, the sophisticated right wing meme about Obama bein’ a traditional Chicago machine politician…and it’s aimed at the centrist as well as the non-Obama left wing…that shit is so easy ta turn into fertilizer. Don’t drink of the cup and don’t turn around and look to the right…use Democratic arguments Brother cole.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, AND DON’T LISTEN TO THOSE FOLKS WHO CLIP COUPONS FOR THE LIMO RIDE HOME!!

I agree with you completely.

Two words: “Andrea Dworkin.”

I posted that in response to the discussion about Obama and corporate supporters to point out that the charge has been out there for a long time..

I have said many times that I don’t care which of em gets the nomination…I am not a Clintonista nor am I an Obamaite.

It may be that my definition of misogyny includes your definition of criticism, a typical problem in the patriarchal sea we all live in.

Apparently you accord us only the liberty to agree with you. How generous. How Republican.

I read somewhere that you only have so much time after you suspend(or end) your campaign to pay back your campaign debts. She obviously needs the money(since they loaned at least 11 million) to the campaign), and after a certain point the campaign can’t pay back personal loans like that.

Things I picked up from other posts on other sites that really ring out.
NO woman is ever the front runner. Ever. This is America.
The nomination was Hillary’s to lose anyway. And she lost it. She should have waxed Obama. It’s her fault. Every single obstacle she has encountered is a known element of her entire professional life. There were no surprises. They blew it. I’m sorry. That hurts. That’s between Clinton and Obama. Don’t be surprised if he takes her endorsement and tells her to go away.
Now, about you and me. Besides losing, twice now, I’m pissed about the way she was treated, by you, which has nothing to do with why she lost. Ronald Reagan, Jesse Jackson and Ted Kennedy all were welcomed with open arms to their convention floor. Why is that? They were way-way short on delegates. And the intensity of distress from people like me that you are feeling has to do with how many people are pissed, not how pissed people are. Like over 15 million or something. Your contempt for Hillary has nothing to do with her as a woman, which means it’s personal, which means it’s me, which means we got a problem. So let’s all go to a neutral corner and let the loser take a standing 8 count and let the ref call it. I’ll come back after Obama puts a Republican on the ticket and let you explain why voting for Chuck Hegel is different from voting for McCain.

Oh I see, you and Petrocelli (@127) believe that a candidate preferred by the corporate media would not seek, or win over, the support of young voters and small donors. Instead you believe the corporate media candidate would restrict himself to placing “yard signs” along Wall Street and hope for the best.

I suppose you think the corporate media only targets CEOs with their beer commercials and leaves the public access channels to pitch to the masses.

1,861 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen BobbyG:

“She wants money.”

That’s what it’s always been about with Mr. and Mrs. Bill…power and money! I wish I coulda said it that succinctly.

KEEP THE FAITH AND REMEMBER IT AIN’T ABOUT THEM IT’S ABOUT ALL OF US INCLUDING THEM!!!

I’m sorry, but Clinton’s tactics and dishonesty in this campaign have been reprehensible. Behaviour like hers should not be rewarded in Democratic politics if we are ever to have a hope of pulling the party toward anything resembling a party of the people like it once was,unlike what it has been. Hillary exemplifies and personifies what is wrong with this party and to suggest we forgive and forget what she has done here is to suggest we continue to “go along to get along”. I hope and pray that is NOT what happens here.

As for women and women’s issues, whining and crying sexism over every slight, real or imagined, is not how to empower women. Hillary COULD have run a celebratory campaign on the issues which DO empower women. Instead she chose to deliberately stoke what I consider to be hysteria and irrational hatred toward our likely nominee, to the point that it could have profound consequences in November.

I have figured all along that Hillary wanted two things before pulling out:

1)getting her debt covered

2) getting enough delegates so that if Obama slips the superdelegates can switch and make her the nominee.

Looks as if she attained 2- now she’s lookin for 1.

I figure that she will “suspend” her campaign and congratulate Obama for being the “presumptive nominee” without making a formal concession…then the campaign goes behind the scenes to the superdelegates.

Does this anger justify voting for the true enforcers of the patriarchy? Not that I am acknowledging any guilt from the Obama side in enforcing the patriarchy at all, though.

Andrea Dworkin? Dworkin? You have a problem with her?

“Apparently you accord us only the liberty to agree with you. How generous. How Republican.”
________

How trollish, perhaps. Maybe we should just quit taking the bat, and see what happens.

You are officially a troll, and I will not play along. Bye.

Andrea Dworkin? Ya mean the sexist Stalinist that wants ta tell you what is good for ya and whatcha ken read? Ya mean THAT Andrea Dworkin? Jesus, get real!!

She’s not a troll, and doesn’t deserve to be bullied because she has a different opinion.

So how’s the reconciliation goin so far?

I now think, to paraphrase Gore Vidal, that the Democratic and Republican parties are the two wings of the Patriarchal party.

Yep. She can bandy Ickes and “Denver” ad nauseum, but she’ll be reduced to ranting on places like the TexasDarlin blog without the cash.

Great, thanks for asking.

“Sore winner” is a really unattractive summer look.

And just to finish my thought, I think considering her supporters attitudes are entirely her fault for stoking them, the onus is on her to talk them down. I’m done with debating them and I will not beg them to support the Democratic nominee.

I stand rebuked and defer.

Ok reconciliation is good, while remembering it wont be complete. Hillary took a lot of money from a lot of rich people that thought they were getting an inside line to the whitehouse. They are going to be pissed.

The problem is simple (now this is going to ruffle feathers but it is the objective truth nonetheless): There is a contingent among the Democrats who actually believed going in that Hillary was owed the Presidential node for some bizarre reason. There is a contingent that thinks that the Clintons OWN the party. That is part of this. The other, even uglier part, is the contingent that holds the position that it is impossible to NOT support Hillary and NOT be sexist. Hillary is OWED the nod just because and because she is, reduntantly, a woman.

That nasty, self-defeating woman being reported on the blogs as saying she will vote for McCain if Hillary is not given what she is owed (extrapolating the underlying false belief). It doesn’t matter that Obama has won more often, has more delegates, and has simply done better overall than The Annointed One, Hillary, by virtue of her last name AND her sex MUST be the nominee.

If you don’t agree, you’re a sexist because, Cthulhu knows, Hillary is the perfect candidate who can do no wrong (saying she has done wrong, and repeatedly, is sexist). Pointing out the flaws of the Clintons (and their DLC/triangulating minions) is heresy and sexism. Pointing out her inability to NOT support war war war (and then her inability to apologize for BEING WRONG) is sexist.

Sorry for the tone folks but that woman really pisses me off with that shithead attitude (I WILL vote for McCain out of spite! I WILL cut off my nose to spite my face!).

If Hillary is given the nod after all this, because of a bunch of nasty shits actually hold to the idea that Hillary is OWED anything then I wont vote in November because the system will have proven itself irredeemably broken – and voting for ANYONE will be demonstrated to be voting for business as usual, war, war war, empire, corporatocracy, the DLC, and for triangulation.

I’m thinkin that the timin may be off for the reconciliation thingee

misogyny – is hatred (or contempt)[1] of women (per wiki)

Traditional feminist theorist propose many different forms of misogyny. In its most overt expression, a misogynist will openly hate all women simply because they are female. Other forms of misogyny may be less overt. Some misogynists may simply be prejudiced against all women, or may hate women who do not fall into one or more acceptable categories. Entire cultures may be said to be misogynist if they treat women in ways that can be seen as harmful. Examples include forcing women to tend to all domestic responsibilities, not giving pregnant women jobs, or beating a woman. Subscribers to one model, the mother/whore dichotomy, hold that women can only be “mothers” or “whores.” Another variant is the virgin/whore dichotomy, in which women who do not adhere to a saintly standard of moral purity are considered “whores”.[citation needed]

Frequently, the term misogynist is used in a looser sense as a term of derision to describe anyone who holds an unpopular or distasteful view about women as a group

criticism – per webster’s

1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate
2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

Don’t see how the two can cross (one person’s criticsm is another’s misogyny)unless the criticism is that she IS female.

I think this thread shows that a lot of Sen. Obama’s supporters were never going to vote for Sen. Clinton. What was it that Obama said last January, that he could get her supporters but she could not get his.

Plenty of contempt without much self-awareness to observed here, and this is supposed to be a thread about reconciliation.

Mary, that’s my Dad. Who admitted to me that he’s finally deserted our Current Occupant–heavens, he was one of the 28%ers. He hate McCain and has no use for Hillary. But Obama? The first conversation was very tentative.

What a load of horseshit. If Clinton supporters want to be angry then be angry. Don’t lay this at the feet of Obama or his supporters, she ran her campaign the way she wanted and lost, and now because they can’t deal with the anger that they lost it’s incumbent upon Obama supporters to make them feel welcome again?

If your only reaction to losing a nomination is to leave the party, get the fuck out, here’s a box of tissues to take with you.

Agreed. Pretty hysterical, isn’t it?

Well, given that statement, I guess there’s no point in choosing at all. Especially in choosing Obama as the nominee of the “patriarchy-lite” party that is overturning the entire structure in ways that have never been experienced before.

Good points all.

And…..

The idea that Senator Obama can win even with a good percentage of Clinton’s supporters is suspect.

For months the same low-info voices can be heard repeating ad nauseum the false memes that Obama will win because:

He offers change….check with CNN on that folks

He will bring in millions of new voters……think again polling shows no such thing and then…this bitch had to pipe up

People will love him….not after the MSM gets through with the three strikes Wright, Rezko and Auchi

Now listen closely, I’m not in favor of McSame winning. I won’t vote for him. All I am saying, and believe me I know many of you are mentally incapable of hearing this…., is that Senator Obama is a deeply flawed candidate who offers nothing to progressives for their support and who stands a very good chance of losing in November.

Clinton would be an almost certain winner and does not carry the corrupt ‘Illinois Machine’ baggage that Obama does.

Okay…ready for the pile on!

Oh..what’s that?

I gotta go…

So don’t bother.

I had no contempt for Hillary until she started pulling race cards right and left, mostly right. Her vote for the war and her inablity to admit that it was a mistake was a foreshadowing of who she really is-a neocon.

So I wonder who has closer ties to AIPAC. Clinton, Obama or McCain?

OT – Ted Kennedy out of successful surgery … Linky

Nice uppercut pal!

I see two middle of the road dem candidates tryin to get elected president. Both have PLENTY of rich and powerful supporters and both are careful in staking out their positions to be middle of the road.

There is, in fact, not a dime’s worth of difference between the two that I can see- and either would make a hell of a lot better president than McBush.

Reconciliation will begin Tuesday night, after Hillary and Barack give their speeches …

A bit of an overstatement as you aren’t aware of the intentions of all the Obama supporters on this site.

Fully concur.

That is good news indeed

Yeah. As I posted on TexasDarlin before getting banned there:

BobbyG // May 16, 2008 at 3:46 pm

“America needs a President with guts, for a change.”
______

One with ethics would be nice as well. “Sniper Fire” was a deal-breaker for me. Now fairly cemented by “hardworking white Americans.”

(btw, I caucused for Hillary here in Nevada)

I now have become a marginal net Obama supporter, one with many reservations. But, one also now accustomed to being rhetorically spat upon by reflexive Clinton supporters with the lame juvie epithets “Obamabot” and Obamoron.”

And one last observations before y’all ban me from this blog. Should she prevail and be the nominee, I will vote for her, mainly owing to SCOTUS implications.

I disagree. Hillary has a very progressive voting record on the whole and in pushing for universal health care while first lady- attempted a sea change in american political life. Had she been successful she would have led america to it’s most progressive legislation since the new deal…

Obama is very good too.

Just move forward Brother BobbyG…if she can’t see another side to the same rights she claims she’s bein’ denied, well then ya can’t help ‘er.

Whether or not she’s a troll…we’ve given ‘er enough space.

i hope that is has already begun but I do understand that some will not unite and I will not lose sleep over their decision.

I agree with rwcole on several fronts:
-Both Hillary and Obama would be a hell of a lot better than McSame
-This general election will be close and dirty

I also believe that this election could be close with either nominee. It could also be a blowout Dem win. General election polls are useless right now with all the spite and talk of defection floating around.

It seems ironic to me that Hillary’s argument that she has been cut down by the (indisputably present and reprehensible) misogyny present in this society is tied to her argument that only she can win in November. Those two points seem contradictory to me.

Anyway, we do so need reconciliation, and those who have inspired the spite are needed to bring this about.

You know, all this discussion of why your candidate (Clinton or Obama) sucks is pretty much moot at this point.

Agreed.

i disagree with that characterization of her universal healthcare plan but we don’t have to agree.

YEP!

absolutely agreed but nonetheless it continues

You mean her current one or the one she tried to get through while Bill was in the White House?

I was talking about the latter.

Yes, in my area, that is the reason people have given me for supporting Hillary: that she could win.

It seems ironic to me that Hillary’s argument that she has been cut down by the (indisputably present and reprehensible) misogyny present in this society is tied to her argument that only she can win in November. Those two points seem contradictory to me.

Interesting observation – said misogyny unlikely to disappear between now and November.

How generous of you….

Oh good grief (says the 49 year old woman business owner who’s worked in corporate america in 3 states before deciding to heck with it and now does her own thing)…

criticism = misogyny?

You must be a shrinking violet of such delicacy that you never see the light of day. Or, you work in academia. No where else in the world could someone, man or woman, function on a daily basis with that view.

A year ago, no one gave The Sheikh a chance to advance at all in the primary. Peeps misunderestimate him.

Agree that a blow out is still a possibility- but so is house to house fighting.

((((( Margot )))))

One thing is certain to me, Hillary has made it more likely that more women will hold seats of power, including POTUS, in my lifetime …

Citizen humboldtblue: Can’t get any more right on than that!!

People fling that word (misogyny) around and many have no idea what it means (truly).

Exactly. I was wishing that I could get all of the lukewarm Clinton supporters that just thought their neighbors would not vote for Obama together in the same place so they could actually see that they were all thinking the same thing. Obviously since the primary process is over it won’t matter any more.

that should read:

Many people fling that word around and have no idea what it means (truly)

Agreed. Of course people can be critical and a misogynist–I’ve met’em and worked for ‘em. But, the two things cannot be equated. I worked for and currently work with a lot of difficult people who criticize my draft work product for one reason or another, but they’re just being picky or technical or engineering geeks or precise or whatever.

I feel it necessary to reiterate my agreement with Ted Turner, that men should be banned from holding all offices of power for 100 years, in order to undo the travesties they’ve committed …

As long as that doesn’t include women like Clinton and Margaret Thatcher.

Fern- unlikely to disappear indeed.

rwcole- either outcome is possible with either candidate, yes.

just 100? I was thinkg more like 1000 years *g*. You all have wreaked havoc in the world

I did not leave the Democratic Party. They left me

We have to combat the “my preacher told me…” people and the “but my mom sent me an email that said” people.
Will a preacher please send an email to me that says Obama is a Christian, and that anyone who says he isn’t is going to get in big big trouble with the Holy Spirit?
Or words to that effect.
I’m a mom, I can send me an email…;)

My peeps have only taught yoga/meditation and nonviolence but I’d happily give up any position of authority to you and yours … *g*

I should have said “convince” not combat.

1,861 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen CMike:

“…this is supposed to be a post about reconcilliation.”

See my initial comment upstream but the short version is: the loser concedes gracefully reinforcing common goals and values and the winner then accpets gratefully and gracefully. That’s the way it’s done.

In this case it is for the loser to stop using her supporters as a club to extort money and power from the winner and the party…My hand has been out to the M*Clintonistas since the beginning. If the supporters of “she who should forever be nameless” want my respect and support they have it but I’m not gunna offer ta pay ‘em for theirs.

KEEP THE FAITH AND STOP POUTING…HAVE A LITTLE SELF RESPECT!!

Not you in particular querido. Just lots, bunches of men. The need to conquer has led down an evil path.

(Oh, i’ll admit that my fav yoga instructor is male. )

considering that both candidates are about equal on their platforms. How has the party left you?

Since I cannot get pregnant, if a bunch of female Hillary supporters wish to vote for McCain out of spite if The Annointed One isn’t GIVEN the nom, handing all their reproductive decisions to men in the GOP, be my guests. It’s not my vagina, it’s McCain’s.

I’m an old vet and not going to be going to the ME for war war more war (already done my warring) but if a bunch of female Hillary supporters wish to vote for McCain out of spite if The Annointed One isn’t GIVEN the nom, handing their children over to Forever War McCain, be my guests. They’re not MY kids, their McCain’s cannon fodder.

I can make it pretty well even if your spiteful voting causes the total collapse of the nation under massive debt and military overreach. Do what you want. It’s YOUR ass more than mine.

I’d take Hillary over any of the 4 most recent Presidents.

Yeah. It gets tiresome. I have faith that closer to November, once this is a one-on-one race instead of the two-on-one race we have been dealing with, that people will become more educated.

We’re going to have to do the educating. It has got to be a one-to-one thing.

There are male and female versions of misogyny.

Because traditionally the BIG MOMMY loomed with more power when we were all babies than the out in the world daddies (I said traditionally), we have primal power and control issues, a special kind, with women. Women who needed to emulate their female role model but become their own person, not mini-mes of their mothers, and for boys… to un-enmesh from their mother to emulate their removed fathers for their male identity…so maybe to reject some of mom’s good traits for the sake of that separation … and that feeds into the patriarchal top-heavy environment. So psychological breaking with Mom for identity but need of that support is a complicated and sustained process. (Everybody loves Raymond…. for example). Great book called Mermaid and the Minotaur about this stuff by Dinnerstein.

The old adage… double standard… a woman becomes a bitch if she puts a man on hold on the phone, a man wages a war with another country… he is finally labelled aggressive and even hailed a hero (by some). Oy vey. The other double standard.. woman can be the madonna or the whore. Again, oy vey. The tribe is tough on women. Men and other women.

So, Hillary may trigger some Mom issues with me, too. I went for Edwards then Obama… but God bless her for bringing women forward, though in my eyes she abandoned some good “mommy” traits to get this far. OY VEY.

Even Bill? I liked Bill. I considered myself an FOB. I even volunteered for him. Hillary is no Bill.

frankly, I think part of this anger I feel is that my government left me. naive I know. I mean bush clinton clinton bush and…clinton? can someone else, anyone else have a turn at the plate?

I’m fifty years old and sick of women complaining about sexism who simply cannot take the heat. Clinton said she could until she started falling behind. Clinton has done A LOT to move the ball forward in the women’s movement but it can’t all be done in one Hail Mary play.

True. I hope the job will be made easier once he is the nominee.

Anyone who votes for a candidate on the grounds of gender or race is seriously misguided. Talk about superficial. I don’t know I ever liked Hillary but the thing that tore it for me was Bosnia sniper fire. That was one crazy thing to say to the extent that I wonder about her sanity. Oh she’s not detached from reality, but she seems to believe we should believe what she says because she says it. What could she have been thinking? Nothing good. As for experience, that’s as a bogus issue. Judgment is more important and Obama has her beat in that department hands down.

That said, November is by no means a done deal. I know lots of Jews who will not vote for Obama and lots of whites who feel the same. The economy can get real bad and McCain can self destruct several times and he might still win. Women can see me as a foolish male, but Hillary, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is spending money she didn’t have, deserved to lose. It has nothing to do with gender. It has to do with who she is.

I don’t buy any of this, with all due respect to the women in your life, Senator Clinton, and all of her heartbroken and some seemingly irrational supporters.

I’m a woman, (white, as if that matters, it doesn’t to me) middle-income, and over the age of menopause. This idea that, somehow, a woman can only be validated in her life if Hillary is the nominee is ridiculous. I understand how upset her supporters are that she cannot win the nomination, but the fact that she can’t is not prima facie evidence of some sort of sexism. In fact, the idea that these women won’t support the Democratic nominee due to having some sort of a temper tantrum over not getting their way is insulting to every other woman, man, and child who cares about the war, the economy, civil rights, constitutional rights, the environment…in short, anyone who hates what has been happening in our country for the last 8 years.

I supported Obama from the start. The fact that I did does not make me any less of a feminist than any of Hillary’s supporters nor does it make me a robot, or stupid, or a cultist. Did Hillary face sexism in this race? Of course, she did because our society is a sexist one, but no one from the Obama campaign has made any sort of sexist statements. However, it is also a racist country and Obama had to confront it from both Republicans and fellow Democrats. They both had major obstacles to overcome in this race, but neither sexism or racism are at the heart of what made their campaigns successful or unsuccessful. The winning margin was simply in who strategized and managed their campaign better.

I sympathize with all the Clinton supporters who are so upset, but I beg you to begin using the logic I know you have to realize that if you follow through on your threats, you will throw away your chance to save the lives of our military men and women and thousands and thousand of innocent civilians, in Iraq now and, undoutedly, in Iran when McCain in inaugurated due to such shortsightedness.

It may be that my definition of misogyny includes your definition of criticism, a typical problem in the patriarchal sea we all live in.

If you can find misogyny in my criticism of her war vote and/or my criticism of her siding with McCain over Obama re: the imaginary ‘Commander In Chief’ threshold statement, you might be right.

But I don’t think you can.

It’s simply not there.

I come back and see that the fun and games continue. Reconciliation here seems to work about as well as it does in Iraq.

Let her go mumbling into the darkness STTPinOhio…it is obvious that it won’t be rational argument or straight forward offers of mutual respect that will lead her to reconciliation. She will either be told to reconcile by her candidate or she will go mumbling into that good night. There is nuthin’ ya ken do for her.

I don’t see reconciliation actually beginning until Clinton both concedes and endorses Obama. He has been quite conciliatory lately but otherwise the ball is in her court. Sometimes it almost seems like some think he should issue an apology for defeating her.

Bill was impeached because he couldn’t keep his Brains inside his pants …

Hillary took a lot of money from a lot of rich people that thought they were getting an inside line to the whitehouse. They are going to be pissed.

Another spot on reason for much of the anger out there.

Hey, who’re you calling a Turd Kurd ?!! *g*

The level of anger was ratcheted up exponentially as the Lakers went further into the playoffs … *g*

… or thank her for making him win, even though he didn’t change his core strategy one iota, the whole time …

Well, that hadn’t occurred to me. They might not be so amenable to that.

You just HAD to go there, didn’t you?

Check out what I’m hangin’ onto now:

“But, but we took the Celtics to 7 games, Detroit only lasted 6!”

Pitiful, isn’t it?

They left me on Saturday when they broke their own rules for seating Florida and Michigan by arbitrarily giving votes based on their concept of what voters might have done.

I don’t agree with your judgment of that action, but OK, cya.

Huh? They are seating the full delgations. What are you talking about? The delegations only get one-half vote but they are being seated. Are you referring to the delegate split? If so how do account for the many that voted uncommitted because their candidate’s name was not on the ballot? They had to try to be fair to both candidates, the two states and the other 48 states that did follow the rules. I just don’t see how the party left you.

Any solution that involved seating any of the FL and MI delegates would have been, by definition, arbitrary.

So should they have not seated MI and FL because those primaries broke the rules? Because once the decision was made to seat them, any formula for doing so by its very nature arbitrary.

Hugh- Jinx

Yes the crap pie throwing abounds. it’s impossible to read all the comments on this thread.
I am going to make a bold suggestion: Don’t call Clinton supporters stupid, right-wing, hysterical, or say that they cry false misogyny etc. Not even Harriet Christian above. I think/hope most of us would chew off our hands than vote for McCain/Lieberman. And don’t patronize. And don’t accuse Clinton supporters of “shrieking” (I really saw that a few days ago on a thread here at FDL.)
I prefer Clinton because I feel she is stronger on social security, had a better health plan etc., and she talked of scrapping No Child Left Behind.
I give these reasons, to point out many of us made our decisions based on the issues most important to us and not out of ignorance. And as for Iraq er . . I am not going to throw any pies.
The amount of gloating I see on non-primary threads with an eye to pissing off commenters who are known Clinton supporters is divisive and not-charitable. It’s really hard to talk about issues we all have in common, like outrage over abuse of immigrants in detention centers when various commenters insist on inserting this hoo-hoo-ha-ha-ha primary comments into the thread. It feels like freaking harassment and I have been commenting/reading here since the Alito debacle. I mean enough with the gratuitous anti-Hillary stuff.

Thank you. This was my issue from the beginning. I was an “anyone but Clinton” voter for just that reason. I refused to support an extension of the Bush Clinton Clinton Bush Bush line. Cold and calculating maybe. But, I studied evolutionary biology in college, so that’s probably where I got it. The Democratic party needed new blood.

This is a great country with many, many highly motivated, gifted, qualified people who could lead us. We needed to find them and give them a chance. Now we have. And it’s not just Obama, it’s the people he’s motivated to join the process.

“Even when I suggest that electing a bad woman president will do more to set women back than not offering her as our nominee, my wife is unpersuaded.”

Wow – that’d certainly get any reconciliation off to a great start. What about a bad (your term) black male president [in terms of setback]?

I find your analysis simplistic. I don’t find the historical aspect of either a female or a black as president being sufficient reason to put any black or female in that office and with the current candidates I find no other reason to vote for them.

I am neither sexist nor racist but I am thoroughly disgusted with the party and the process and am uncertain that reconciliation is what is needed. Renovation or wholesale reconstruction seems more beneficial.

I keep hoping that the convention delegates will come to their senses and start over.

I know that’s like hoping Reid and Pelosi will get the flock in line to actually accomplish something positive -oh wait, they are going to throw around their weight with the super-delegates to put the final nail in Hillary’s coffin. Nice priorities.

Sometimes conflagration can lead to new growth, stronger roots. In absence of sense, I’d settle for flames.

Blue America is our best hope against a “bad” president of either party.

Yes, you beat me to it!

Yeah associating Clinton with the term “bad woman” is a real turn-off, and almost why I couldn’t read the entire post.

Now I am really leaving.

The Cintons are a waste of time and have no positive role to play in the Democratic Party. The Clintons ran a dysorganized, dystfunctional presidential campaign tied to their personal agenda.

Time to move beyond and away from the Clintons, as much as possible.

(((Petrocelli)))
Many blessings!

This is a really thoughtful post, and yet you leave out something important. That Clinton herself has worked overtime to whip up this anger among her supporters.

The biggest responsibility for healing this rift lies with Clinton.

That’s interesting. I think one of my backburner issues with HRC is not kicking Bill to the curb for his betrayals. Yay, yay…. nobody died when he did that. But personal character is a priority with me. I look at McCain and that factors in a lot, too. Character. His hairtrigger rage and disrespect.

How a person treats a waiter, shares an umbrella in the rain, handles tangled Christmas tree lights, honors his marriage vows, doesn’t use the “c” word on his wife. Y’know.

Reconciliation goes both ways. It’s really bizarre to see the blame put on one candidate and her supporters. It’s not even rational thinking. A family fights, some side with mom, some side with dad; who’s responsible? Really a therapist would tell you everyone is. It won’t further reconcilation to lay blame. It just increases feuding. I have seen Obama supporters who prefer righteous gloating to reconciliation. That is a problem. I have seen Clinton supporters venting like Harriet Christian. If we’re all democrats, we have issues in common. Anyone who’s worked on a campaign knows that . . . oh, ex: An antiabortion conservative democrat will vote for a prochoice dem candidat, because repblikans suck on education. Again, its about finding common ground, and enough with the victorious jubilees and the blame.