You are either for Jeebus or against Jeebus. Which is it?

Zed.

The demand for McCain to do something about his various pastor problems kept this type of story in the forefront.

KGC!
Long time no see!!!

But I disagree–I think the media keeping the Rev Wright circus alive for so long made it impossible to ignore McCain’s Hagee and Parsley problems.

Hey, Dave.
Didn’t Bill Moyers say much the same thing just after the Nat Press Club incident?

FunnyD

There was also that Catholic priest at the church recently mocking Clinton.

Jeebus is dead.

Zed is still up for debate.

Ice cream?

Now, will McInsane finally be water-boarded err… dunked for the baptism he neglected as a Southern baptist…?

Holy Cow. Is this where I’m supposed to be?
I’m dazed and confused.
I was next door, then went home and I thought it was good, then the lights went out and I came here.
Hi everyone.
I wouldn’t allow the press to tell me when to change my underwear, let alone where I choose to worship.
:(

Wright’s strangely self-serving performance in front of the National Press Club.

oh, for crying out loud. the good rev. wright was never part of senator obama’s campaign. since when is having different priorities than a politician “self-serving”?

Chocolate fudge with walnuts & cherries?

I’d say that this is strictly a political decision- in that he would never have made it if he weren’t running for prez…

It’s clear that the congregation attracts speakers who are going to be a staple at Fox News- syaing things that most americans would see as a little radical- so why should he continue to deal with it…just pray at home in yer closet

Per AP News:
Although Obama condemned comments by both Wright and Pfleger, the controversy has persisted.

As if “the controversy” had a life of its own! Political correctness has gone to a new, and sad, level.

What will they do now that this bright-shiny has been taken away?

Digg here, pups!

The church could have been a little respectful of Obama and not had the crazy guy up last week. That would have shown some class.

mmmm, thanks!

I agree.

david – a very serious question. have you listened to the good rev. wright’s sermons – the one right after 911 and the one on confusing god and country?

Obama’s church was starting to resemble a Las Vegas entertainment venue. I know it was where he had a spiritual awakening, and it did great things for the community, but it was time to let it go.

I’m starting to believe whoever has the worst YouTube moment four days before the election will lose.

This is what we’ve become.

The Bible says “Be silent, and know that I am God.”
Some of these ministers need to read that passage over and over.

no thank yo.

Bout time that someone got on McBush’s ass about his religious views. He attends a Southern Baptist Church in fashionable North Phoenix- but still claims to be an Episcopalean- so what is it? And let’s have someone dig through every word the baptist minister has uttered in the last twenty years- gotta be SOMETHING there!

Dugg.

Well YEAH- of course the crazy guy was speakin UP for Obama….go figure.

no kiddin…does EVERYBODY get their 15 mins of FAME?

per AP news […] the controversy has continued

And who is responsible for this continuation?

Did Obama speak to the problem of also dissing the congregation? You’d think that over the years he would have made many deep and enduring friendships. And, hey, the ‘bad pastor’ (who seemed okay and just kind of full-of-himself retired, for God’s sake!) Goofy. I put up with a bunch of not-to-my-liking priests over the years because the congregations were my home. Of course I’m not running against the predatory Right……just from them. As Tavis says, “Keep the faith.”

Argh. I hate that Obama had to break ties, and god bless it, you shouldn’t have to subvert the truth to win a compaign. I will say it again. I understand Wrights anger and his speeches. I see truth in them. I understand where his anger comes from and his anger is VALID.

I would say the same about the very angry and hurt Clinton supporters. WE have to get some understanding about the consequences of invalidating and subjugating groups of people to violence. There will always be some back lash. This isn’t a sometimes…only if they are really bad people, no!! It’s the reality of what this nation has done to black people, and to women and to many other groups whose voices were drown out by the majority.

Violence and subjugation comes with a price and it is a gift that keeps on giving for years to come…until the full validation in behavior and deed finally comes to fruition. Until that day, the anger is necessary. Without it, it reflect the notion that maybe it was okay to do what we did.

I hope Reverend Wright keeps doing what he does. I am sorry that America was ready to be honest with itself about his anger. And I am sorry that American will not be honest with itself about the anger that foments in the Clinton campaign. It’s not invalid. It’s valid pain. Borne of true victimization. Yes we have to heal, yes, we have to get over it. But you just can’t tell someone else when that point is. Each healing person has to make that journey in their own time and in that way…society pays for it’s deeds. (until the behavior finally changes.)

Yum! Where have you been? Missed you.

But disrespecting Hillary.

interesting perspective

CNN reported in a blip that flew by in 2 seconds that the Church has been receiving death threats. They said that all of the adverse attention to the Church itself was a factor in Obama’s resignation from that congregation.

well, i hear what you are saying…but I really don’t care where politicians worship or how! I don’t care if they are gay or not! I don’t care if they are black/white/purple male/female/other as long as they know the Constitution and are clear on their positions on policies I care about.

that is all.

Super busy. And at the treehouse. Cass & my folks all show up Monday and Texteen will be with me the whole week.

“Obama Breaks His Ties With Trinity Church”

What will the right wing noise machine find to rail about now?

That would make a lot more sense…!

respectful of obama?

and disrespectful of their calling?

you probably have no idea what i think of most christian churches – having rejected the church of my youth, and then one by one every single one i tried to attend. but listening to the good rev. wright’s sermons was a delight and a joy (and i don’t even subscribe to his religious beliefs – at all). no one i’ve heard from this election season has made more sense to me than wright.

Meanwhile, McCain is still running. Let’s googlebomb him back to the stone age. Have you done your part? Here are my contributions:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/…

and:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008…

and at my own site, tapping into the Cuban music fan base:

http://www.timba.com/artists/n…

Help click Macaca McCain into the dust bin of presidential politics.

Click Click Click!!

If you don’t know what I’m talking about, read Chris Bower on the subject!

Respectfully, Trinity UCC does not exist to support or even “help” Obama or anyone. A pastor’s message shouldn’t pull any punches to satisfy anyone.

And that is why most everyone who attends church and pays attention will disagree with the pastor, regularly.

It would be up to the UCC church to decide, as a church, that their pastor is not a good match for the church, and not that the pastor is harming the chances of a candidate.

The media has made connections and drawn conclusions that are inappropriate. Those conclusions have been accepted by many people. Hence, Obama’s resignation from his church … sadly …

“Breaking”: Obama reverting to his real Muslim religion after breaking with his Christian church….

Watch for this kind of spin…

and the Swift Boat Mullahs for Truth will be right around the corner!

On! (I don’t say ‘Right on’ anymore.

You’re probably right.

Respectfully, Trinity UCC does not exist to support or even “help” Obama or anyone. A pastor’s message shouldn’t pull any punches to satisfy anyone.

exactly.

our political system is so corrupt, the last thing i want to see is us encouraging a process where the political corruption and dishonesty is pushed into other parts of our society.

please. do we believe in the separate of church and state? if yes, then certainly we should not be expecting a pastor to STFU because our of OUR (not his) political calculations.

I doubt that this was done much for political reasons — after all, we saw that only a limited bloc of voters were much influenced at all by the Big Farking Deal the media made out of Wright.

this was totally political.

He can’t possibly have been naive enough to think that TUCC would not become “famous” when this campaign began. He thought the damage would be minimal. Wright was retiring, and he thought that would be the end of it.

He was wrong.

The reason this didn’t destroy his candidacy when the Wright controversy broke was because the media decided that he had given “the greatest speech on race EVAH”, Clinton wouldn’t use it, and the GOP didn’t see any need for them to make Wright an issue, because they want to run against Obama.

Obama still has a HUGE problem…. because people were willing to accept WRight as an “abberation”, and that the nice new pastor of TUCC wasn’t like Wright. But this latest incident tells people that Wright WAS the church…. and that he had chosen this church, and people like Wright and Pfleger, as role models and spiritual guides for his CHILDREN.

And its “the children” issue that would do the most damage to his candidacy….

I know.

It’s very sad, and very frightening, really.

I’m not talking about Wright. It was the Catholic Priest whacko last week. They could have waited. Obama’s speech after the Wright controversy was exceptional.

Begging the pups:
Do.Not.Feed.
They are feeding on you.

again, AGREED!

Links seem t be fubar. Or fucked with?

I’ve never seen a Catholic priest like that…different.

That would be rich.

Watertiger upstairs!

s

c

r

o

l

l

i did not see him. do you have a link to a video or audio? thanks

;>

blessings around…
but why is my Lake concerned with Wright here, when it was the invitation of Trinity extended to the Catholic Father F. and HIS “performance” making Sen. Clinton the butt of his entertainment that precipitated the withdrawal of support by the Obama family… ???

it’s three strikes and you’re out… Michelle sees the “friends” in the congregation as less supportive and less tolerant, hence “dangerous” and the family is now seeking a new parish home.

the poisonous influence of media sharks in our personal lives.

so well put.

Schadenfreude (from Wikipedia) is enjoyment taken from the misfortune of someone else. The word has been borrowed from German by the English language and is sometimes also used as a loanword by other languages. German philosopher and sociologist Theodor Adorno defined it as “the largely unanticipated delight in the suffering of another which is cognized as trivial and/or appropriate”.

The opportunism of malice.

The sharks seem to be getting sharkier. So many seem to act more like unpleasant sports commentators caught up in political gamesmanship, than informed and wise commentators on the state of the country and world.

selise, tell me if this doesn’t work for you.

thank you!

if you happen to come across a longer clip (especially a complete one), i’d love a heads up.

going to watch this one now. appreciate the linky.

Clinton wouldn’t use it? I seem to recall “he would not have been my pastor.”

Um, yes.

my apologies, i had forgotten that post. thank you for the reminder.

I’m going to be pissed if this erupts into another “I hate Obama” “Hillary sucks” thread. Can we stick to the topic, which is the media’s running propensity to inflame fake controversies about Democrats wildly out of proportion to their actual meaning?

Thank you, David.

when she was asked…

she NEVER raised the Wright issue, nor did her campaign.

imo, this:

“Wright’s strangely self-serving performance”

was also inflammatory. unnecessarily so.

i heard it myself – word for word. I wasn’t dreaming.

The media couldn’t possibly understand the nature of church membership or the nature of prophetic preaching.

This whole thing begins to look like a religious litmus test for president. That’s what we should be afraid of, IMHO.

As a Christian, I’m saddened that the media circus has caused one Christian to be separated from his church family. A church is a lot more than what’s said from the pulpit. I’ll pray that Obama can find another church home, but that’s not going to be easy in the midst of a presidential campaign.

As an American, I’m infuriated that a candidate’s practice of his religion is even a factor in our discussions. This is just insane.

well said.

This is sad.
Imagine Michelle and Barack having to explain to their little girls that they can’t go to their Sunday School any more.

This is just sad.

“This is just insane.”

I agree. But given the hysterical coverage the media has given to Obama’s religious affiliations, I can see why he would find it necessary to resign from the church.

It never should have been an issue. But it was.

I so agree with you, Selise.

I agree … and the Church Organizers have to ask themselves just what they were hoping to get out of this …

If I may … do the SuperDels get half votes too or is that yet to be decided ?

church organizers? What do you mean?

This is the Catholic priest at Obama’s (now former) church.

Who green lighted the Guest Pastor’s speech ?

Dave…

I’m sorry, but this wasn’t a fake controversy. Wright I was a “fake controversy.” Wright II was overplayed to the point where it was essentially ‘fake’.

The problem is that Obama’s record is so sparse, and his answer to the question of “lack of experience” is “superior judgement”. That lack of a record on which to evaluate his judgement means that people have to look elsewhere for clues to how he exercises his judgement…. not what he says, but what he does.

The other thing is that if Obama supporters should have known this is the kind of coverage that Obama would get — and expressions of outrage really can’t be taken seriously when you are handing the outrage to the media on a silver platter.

One of the reasons I favored Clinton over Obama after Edwards dropped out was because I checked his background, and saw all this stuff, and knew exactly what would happen.

Finally, I haven’t seen a whole lot of unbiased media critique from Obama supporters when its come to outrageous coverage of Clinton. It get VERY difficult for a Clinton supporter who has watched as Clinton has been savagely treated by the media — with the direct encouragement of the Obama campaign — to get upset when it finally happens to Obama.

Obama supporters lost any moral high ground when it comes to criticizing the media over the past six months. It just can’t be taken seriously at this point — its not about the coverage, its about who is being subjected to the coverage.

Hold the line, pups.

Disresprecting Hillary, OK, but I had a hard time not laughing.(I was in a sick mood) I don’t think it was anything worse than what has been on Colbert, Stewart or SNL. It’s just that it was in OB church and a man of the cloth saying it. Now she can really say it was a sexist remark.But she has that attitude and it comes out everytime she opens her mouth. But can you imagine having to have your church under a microscope every Sunday just incase. The media does nto want OB to be the Prez. that simple.

you are right. i need to chill. will try.

i need to chill.

We could all use some chill, selise.

But only if it’s Obama

I heard it to. She was asked a question. What was she supposed to say — that she approved of Jeremiah Wright’s race pimping? Avoid the question?

Lets not forget that Obama made an issue of Hillary Clinton’s PERSONAL tax returns — despite the fact that as a Senator, she has had to file financial disclosure statements every year, Obama made an issue of her PERSONAL tax returns — and did so SOLELY to exploit anything they could about what her HUSBAND had done.

Please get off your high horse here. She never raised it as an issue, while Barack Obama made her PERSONAL tax returns an issue because of WHO SHE’S MARRIED TO.

Chill…..

they get half too.

Mary!
Some welcome sanity!

Thanks Paul, was their half included in the mix or are they still free to vote however they choose ?

chill
scroll
chill
scroll
chill
scroll
dood.

ROFL

Who knows?

The real question is: On what basis should someone be invited to a church to speak?

And shouldn’t that really be the prerogative of that church? Isn’t it up to the congregation to deal with what goes on in its pulpit?

How did the media and the public get into a particular church to make these judgments?

Religious freedom applies to this discussion somewhere, I would think.

There was a morning DJ in SF a million years ago…
Woke up his peeps this way one day:
up
down
up
down
up
down

OK, other eye…

I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am in the Democratic Party and its Rules Committee’s decision on how to seat the Florida and Michigan. How can you decide to only seat some of the delegation or to take away their votes? How can you decide to award delegates to people who weren’t even on the ballot in Michigan? What on earth is the party doing? What message does the party send to its members and to other citizens in the United States when it strips away the votes its citizens? It DOESN’T matter that you warned the states not to move up their primaries!!! You don’t punish the elected officials and state parties who made the BAD decisions by stripping away the votes of your party members!!! How does that make sense? How short sighted of you all – after the voting scandals in Florida in 2000, especially! I cannot see any way around this – I used to wonder why people voted against their own best interest – i.e. why poor people would vote for Republican candidates, etc? I am starting to understand. It becomes clearer to me every day that the party elite and their groupies who control this party are out of touch with reality and are more concerned with their own position and status within the party than they are with doing the right thing or caring for their party members. Bye! Good riddance. You won’t get any support from me in the future – I’ve made that mistake for the last time. I will not reward your irresponsible behavior with support in any way, shape, or form – no matter who your candidate is.

whoa! that was ugly and I didn’t even watch the whole thing. And I’m not a hillary fan. That priest was way outta line on a whole lot of levels, imo.

I feel sad that the Obama family has had to make this decision, but I can understand why they felt they had to make it.

FunnyD

Imagine Michelle and Barack having to explain to their little girls that they can’t go to their Sunday School any more.

the problem, Teddy, was that people were beginning to realize what those children were being taught in sunday school, and wondering why Obama was sending them there.

There is a difference, IMHO, between adults who listen to the kind of hate that is spewed by Wright and Pfeger, and children who hear in within the context of what god wants them to think.

Hard-refresh everybody

they are still super-delegates. The only thing that happened was that all votes were cut in half in strength, and four delegates (two full vote equivalents) were stolen from Clinton and handed to Obama in Michigan.

aaaahhhhh. that felt great…….mmmmmmmmm..

So, are you saying that people are using the Obamas choice of church, and a few select sound bites of what is being taught there, to judge his fitness for office? In other words, if he would let his children hear that kind of stuff, that says something about him as a president?

I’m just wondering …

Wha’d I miss?

Hey, MaryMcC.

FunnyD

I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am in the Democratic Party and its Rules Committee’s decision on how to seat the Florida and Michigan. How can you decide to only seat some of the delegation or to take away their votes? How can you decide to award delegates to people who weren’t even on the ballot in Michigan? What on earth is the party doing? What message does the party send to its members and to other citizens in the United States when it strips away the votes its citizens?

while the question of principle of denying individual democratic voters the same voice as other voters, the real problem here wasn’t just the disenfranchisement of Michigan and Florida voters, it was blatantly political agenda behind what was done. Obama supporters could at least hide behind the fig-leaf of “following the rules”, but this was a power play, because the theft of four Clinton delegates is NOT within the power of the RBC to do. (the credentials committee, yeah — but not the RBC.)

And the rules that were violating in stealing Clinton delegates ar CHARTER rules (i.e. the equilavent of the constitution) as opposed to BY-LAWS (which would be the equivalent of laws). There is simply no rationale for it — it was the essence of political corruption (not to mention the fact that the RBC is supposed to operate in public, and this was OBVIOUSLY decided in private.)

then why did the MI Dem. Party sign off on it?

So, are you saying that people are using the Obamas choice of church, and a few select sound bites of what is being taught there, to judge his fitness for office? In other words, if he would let his children hear that kind of stuff, that says something about him as a president?

other than the soundbites part, yeah.

Its not about “soundbites” — its about the accumulating evidence of the nature of discourse in the church…discourse that Obama first denied ever hearing.

Lets turn this around…lets assume that McCain has two children the same age as the Obama children. And lets say that the same basic sequence of events occurred, except that McCain’s preacher was a white racist.

Would you be treating it as an outrage that the media covered it? would you insist that this was a personal matter. Would you question what John McCain thought about African Americans — or at least what he thought was acceptable discourse in his church about African Americans.

I’m pretty sure if the tables were turned, if this was about John McCain, that there would be absolutely no media critique going on here….

There would be–there is almost no–media covering the turned tables, McCain’s pastors and their anti-Semitic scary hate-filled rhetoric.

then why did the MI Dem. Party sign off on it?

because they were looking for a political solution to a political problem — they don’t care about the Democratic Party Rules at this point– their position was that the RBC had selectively enforced its own rules, and that selective enforcement was wrong…and that a purely political compromise that did not take into consideration the Charter of the Democratic Party was recommended.. They are far more concerned with Michigan staying Democratic in the fall.

I supported the MI compromise proposal in principle — but I think they should have tried to accomplish it within a “rules” framework — seat all the delegates as elected at full strength, and pass a resolution addressed to the Credential Committee that the Rules Committee supported the MI compromise.

That isn’t what happened — not even close. This was pure corruption — they all know that they have NO power to steal delegates from one candidate and give them to another — its unprecendented, and for a very good reason. The Credentials Committee is the place where delegations can be “balanced” — the Rules committee can only PENALIZE states (and in certain instances, can penalize candidates for violation of the rules by STRIPPING them of delegates they won. But there has to be a violation of the rules, and you can’t transfer delegates from one candidate to another.)

There would be–there is almost no–media covering the turned tables, McCain’s pastors and their anti-Semitic scary hate-filled rhetoric.

Just curious… do you not even KNOW that Hagee is not “McCain’s pastor”, or do you not see the distinction between the relationship between a person who endorses McCain who happens to be a preacher, and the relationship between a parishioner and his/her pastor?

Really, I’m curious. I don’t want to argue about it, I’m just want to know if you KNOW what you are saying?

OK, no argument, just talking …

I think that the relationship between pastor and parishioner is a sacred one filled with ambiguity and ups and downs. It’s centered in a shared God experience and, in the United Church of Christ, it’s about unity, not uniformity. In other words, we love each other through the things that are rough or disagreeable, even. No one outside the church can understand that. The church, even Trinity, is not primarily a series of preaching events. Trinity UCC has done incredible things in that community to build up people and revitalize the area, especially with young people.

On the other hand, McCain went looking for, and accepted, the endorsements of Hagee and Parsley. Their relationship was primarily political, and deliberately so, unlike the pastor-parishioner relationship of Wright-Obamas, which only became political when it was made to be so.

The hypothetical example of McCain in a white racist church was a good one. I would probably answer that by saying that I would imagine that McCain’s actual preacher could, even now, could be caught in some difficult-to-explain moments, if he were YouTubed the way Wright was.

In a church like Trinity, there will be edgy and controversial preachers, and they will go over someone’s line.

Maybe it’s just harder to look more closely at the candidates’ actual positions and records instead of judging them by their preachers, former teachers, etc.

Just my two cents …

Quote “I doubt that this was done much for political reasons “

Holy cow. If I ever get lost with you in the forest, I’m going to walk in the opposite direction you choose, ’cause that statement is SO patently bizarre.

of COURSE it’s for political reasons. Obama was part of that church for DECADES. He’s ditching it for political gain. Duh.

The damage is done. Trinity is the gift that will keep on giving through November, should Obama become the nominee.

BAC

I understand the state of the nations voters are somehow encouraged of this annoncement for Obama’s campaign chances for president.

But it is sad that a person must disown a church or such.

I am not much of a religious person, yet from what I’ve seen and heard of Rev Wright and now this last Preist. at Trinity in Chicago.

If ever I have time when in Chicago, I would like to stop in for a sermon or two.

I’ve been missing some great entertainment. Has Trinity ever thought of broadcasting their sunday sermons?