Jane!

Some are reporting that the whole delegation is to be seated with 1/2 vote each.

I like how CNN is labeling each speaker as either a Clinton supporter or an Obama supporter.

The speakers are pretty much making such labeling unnecessary, judging by their remarks.

cspan is doing that too.

what is fair reflection?

Good morning Pups! Get your shovels out and digg this post!

Has anyone accidentaly voted for Pat Buchanan yet?

-G

Jane & Marcy! I hope you brought your ice water, ’cause hell, yeah…I’m watching from my livingroom and it’s getting Hot In Here Too!
I like Alice Huffman’s response to Wexler!
I don’t like people who SCREAM and pound.
Blech!
You go Alice! Don’t let that guy ask a question like, Well, why didn’t you ask that question a year ago? He’s being a bully.
(I’m not suggesting this, but xomeone needs to calm that man down…)
Spirited!!!!

Oh yeah at least five times!

EPU’d at Marcy’s but wanted to make sure this gets seen because of all the arguing:

214

FWIW: I’ve long had the feeling that Hillary was asked to continue running. As long as she and Obama are slugging it out, people are being glavanised to register as Democrats and go out and vote. Millions more than would have otherwise if Obama were simply running agaisnt McCain. Obama may have his faults, but his expertise at organizing and GOTV points to him as the one most likely to encourage her. Just IMO. I believe I did hear him say something like “if she wants to run, she should”.

Not to ignore the fact that they’ve campaigned in every state for once. I’m so tired of being ignored by Dems because Texas was a write-off to Reps. Feels good to see them doing this.

After his latest book, I doubt he could conjure up any votes in either party.

As near as I can figure out, there will be a settlement in Florida that give Hillay somewhere between 19 and 38 delegates- so this is about 19 votes out of over 4,000.

It really doesn’t matter much.

Michigan is a whole different kettle of fish since Obama pulled his name and Hillary didn’t.

Seems to me that the main goal should be to not piss off voters in Florida or Michigan and turn the states over to McBush

I thought Joiner and Wexler made thier points. However I was all for Wexler. He kind of put Ickes in his place also. I loved it. I am watching on C-Span. It’s nice to see who they are supporting. Only the Dems could get this stuff all messed up. I sure hope after Tuesday this whole thing is over with. I can get back to doing normal things out side of the home and not glued to the box for the lasted pundits. LOL

Once this is settled we can get back to the substantial discussions regarding McBush and Obama’s preachers- I can hardly WAIT!

Ickes stormed out like a little baby … I love it … that guy gives me the creeps

Wonder if we could get the Mayo Clinic to weigh Obama’s and McBush’s balls and tell americans which are larger? That would settle the whole election.

Said this in the other post as well.

DNC rules require that delegations be a “fair reflection” of the will of those who participate in the presidential selection process.

The correct answer to Ickes would have been, “those who participated in the FL convention were told that what they were doing WASN’T part of the presidential selection process, so no, the FL election does not represent a fair reflection of the participants involved in teh presidential selection process.

Dems could certainly say “fuck you” to Florida and give em no votes and no seats- that’d show em…

Of course it may also cause a lot of Floridians to give up on the party and register gooper…..but revenge is FUN!

Thanks!

At this juncture, what is the probability that the Rachel Maddow prediction will come to fruition; namely, anything less than 100% delegate seating in both Michigan and Florida will result in the Clinton campaign carrying on a protest to Denver?

In otherwords, the Clinton campaign has no interest in achieving a semblance of “fair reflection” if it means that her campaign efforts are over and won’t accept any result that leads that direction.

FL Dem voters are smarter than party officials. There are too many local issues this time around for Dem voters to be thinking about cutting off their noses to spite their face. We may have had the fewest new Dem registrations but this has been a Rethug state forever and we’re quite encouraged by the numbers. It’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Rethug economic policy here is beginning to come back and bite them in the ass.

I just wanted to say that Robert Wexler is awesome.

That is all.

I think you are right. I hope this Committee doesn’t allow that to happen. Michigan is getting the snark from the Clinton Supporters on the Comm.

The trick is to handle the situation in such a way that Obama (who we all know is going to be the nominee) has a shot at winning both states come November. Florida will be VERY TOUGH for him- but he might have a shot- and Michigan is CRITICAL…

The perception of fairness in the decision TO THE VOTERS is critical in my opinion.

Just joining here. thank you for hosting the discussion.

I am struck by the applause during the debate. It’s kind of odd and fun at the same time. participatory democracy,what a concept!

loving debate!

and yes, wexler rocks.

McBush’s nuts have lost a lot of volume after years of ginger fondling by the media.

Sort of like a beach stone.

-G

Here’s the trouble with that. If the protest went to Denver and if Hillary won ALL the votes in question- it wouldn’t be nearly enough. Her hope is to win by convincing superdelegates that she can beat McBush and Obama can’t…these few seats are small potatoes.

She’ll go to the convention with enough delegates that swinging a hundred superdelegates or so her way would give her the nomination. That’s the game after tuesday.

participatory democracy,what a concept!

I can hear Shithead Timmeh tomorrow morning now. “What a circus the hearing was. People clapping, having a good time. No wonder they don’t win elections.”

Hey, Russert!! Yeah, you, limp dick. Get hosed.

LOL

I think that todays debate is very important and will make a difference.
As a point of clarification, when I say that I don’t like bullies who yell, that is just me sharing my preference for how affective communication works, for me. It’s not meant as a judgement of what others here should believe or who others think rock or don’t rock.
Party unity is the ultimate goal for this day.

Little to none; the thought expressed by Audrey @10 is closer to the truth than most realize I think, whether it was by direct request or not. This has truly been over for for at least a week or so; the campaigns and insiders know it but the process needs to be played out publicly, and it truly does need to be so played out to let everybody vote in every state and feel they were heard and given a fair shake. The problem at this point is NOT the enmity between the candidates, it is the respective supporters. Both sides need to realize and admit that it was a hard fought and exciting primary, that both candidates are good, honorable and deserve respect, and that now that it is over, the chippy carping and disdain must end and all work together toward a common end. Both sides have to give up the BS.

Hillary’s poignant end-game argument is simply “Process/Rules/Votes/Delegates be DAMNED, I’m the stronger candidate, period. I simply must save the party from itself.”

As messianic as Bu’ush.

Did you ever notice … Timmeh!! was on vacation when Kos was on MTP .. what a shocker .. huh?

In her dreams.
In reality, she needs so many that she’ll never get there.

You know .. as much of an asshat as Andrew Sullivan can be .. he was pretty spot on(except for the names he called her .. which are unexcusable) … it can be interesting reading differing viewpoints .. only to see how others think

Yes, and that is exactly what Rachel has predicted. Meaning a summer of misdirected campaign efforts when the focus should be on Mr. McCain. Rachel’s contention is then that this will result in a Democratic loss come November.

I quite agree with everything Rachel has proposed except the conclusion. I think the Clinton campaign has every intention of continuing with the expectation of stealing superdelegates in the fall unless some serious outside pressures are brought to bear; and I think this long, stupid summer would be a colossal wast of democratic time, money, effort not to mention listening to the various Max Headrooms for the entire silly season. That would all suck! But, I disagree with her final conclusion…I honestly believe that McCain is such a foolish old man, with such increasingly bad judgment, even against a backdrop of Democratic unrest, that he can not win…not withstanding the fact that eight years of similar Republican policy as he is promising have been disaster.

If America can find away to elect John McCain even over a can of beans, then America deserves what it gets and I’m following Susan Sarandon to Itally (which, frankly, I’d probably do anyway ;-)

Just ran across this:

http://hillaryis404.org

The snark runneth over.

Yep

I could carve a better man from a banana.

If the Huffington story is correct, then Hillary will net 29 delegates out of today’s negotiation and the damned thing will be over. Obama said to support the compromises..Sounds like a good way to go.

Let’s speculate, for the sake of argument:

Hillary manages to wrest the nod away.

And then loses the General to McBu’ush.

She (and Bill) are then party pariahs? Or, will they blame that on The Sheikh?

Thank you, bmaz. You’re right. It does have to be played out and it has been a fine race. I also think it’s keeping the Republican smear machine in check for as long as possible. They’ve really just thrown softballs so far, IMO. The media has been responsible for most of the garbage, but it’s not that serious yet.

I don’t have a dog in this hunt- but it seems to me that everyone’s playin by the rules here.

The winner is the person who gets the most votes- the voters are the committed delegates AND the superdelegates- you go after the committed delegates with primary campaigns- you go after superdelegates with arguments…which is what she’s doing…

I don’t see her breaking any rules- she’s playin the game the way it was designed..

May be a shitty game- but that ain’t HER fault.

The goal is for the Democratic party to win in November, right?

So what does Hillary Clinton think she is doing? Her attempt to follow in her husband Bill’s footsteps is, well, pathetic.

She ran in the wrong year. It’s too bad that a woman will not be the nominee of the Democratic party. Hillary’s main problem is that she is running in the election that determines the successor to the Bush-Clinton-Bush line: having a Clinton succeed a Bush for the second time in 16 years is just bad awful terrible timing.

The fact is that Barack Obama is just a better candidate, though maybe even Hillary could beat McCain in November.

If either Obama or Clinton can beat McCain in November — Clinton would have to survive a lower turnout from Obama’s constituencies and vice versa, OK? — then it makes sense for Hillary to keep up her fight. She should pledge that she will continue to fight Obama for the Dem nomination, AND promise that she will fight even harder and also successfully to defeat McCain in November.

Interesting, very …

If the “Compromise” is as Stein at the HuffPo says, then what is the “Magic Number” of Delegates necessary for the nomination?

I’ve heard something like 2113, but I’m not sure.

I am loving the whole sloppy democratic mess. Sweaty people in a hot room. Sweaty, frustrated, smart, diverse human beings acting like human beings. This is what being alive is. The other party, the undead, cannot tolerate anything other than compliance and order. Hurray for smelly human beings!!!!

I don’t know if it will be Tuesday or another day, but it will all be done next week. Obama supporters spewing about some Clinton scorched earth attempt are blowing dung. So are any Clinton supporters that think that will occur. As you now say @41 is correct; except it is not that it will be over, it already is. What you are witnessing today is necessary process to wrap up the ends.

JohnSwifty - See my comment @32

I’m afraid whatever the outcome we’re gonna hear a lotta whine from the Clinton campaign. How they were victimized, all that noise.

Either that or they claim that Obama would have lost by a wider margin …

That’s fine- let em whine- it’s free.

Oh, crap! I’ve been blogging my fingers bloody because I didn’t know Jane was doin’ it here. What a bozo am I, speaking of clowns?! Duh.

Hurray for smelly human beings!!!!

AMEN!!! :)

Damn, I just wish there was some cigar smoke.

-G

There will be no more public campaign after tuesday. The best Hillary can do is to go to the convention with enough delegates so that if Obama starts tubing- the supers can give the nomination to her. That’s a fifty to one shot- but it’s all she has left.

Must I apologize for going to take a shower?

Well said.

Cigar sounds GOOD—I’ve got a few tucked away—should I? Naw!

Maybe …

The goal is for the Democratic party to win in November, right?

So what does Hillary Clinton think she is doing? Her attempt to follow in her husband Bill’s footsteps is, well, pathetic.

She ran in the wrong year. It’s too bad that a woman will not be the nominee of the Democratic party. Hillary’s main problem is that she is running in the election that determines the successor to the Bush-Clinton-Bush line: having a Clinton succeed a Bush for the second time in 16 years is just bad awful terrible timing.

The fact is that Barack Obama is just a better candidate, though maybe even Hillary could beat McCain in November.

If either Obama or Clinton can beat McCain in November — Clinton would have to survive a lower turnout from Obama’s constituencies and vice versa, OK? — then it makes sense for Hillary to keep up her fight. She should pledge that she will continue to fight Obama for the Dem nomination, AND promise that she will fight even harder and also successfully to defeat McCain in November.

Interesting, very …

Only if you are not wearing a towel now. /s

Can you imagine what it was like during the early days of the Russian Revolution? The time Jack Reed and Louise Bryant wrote such great pieces on. The debates, the comraderie, the excitement in the air. An admittedly failed ideology but the people had such hope. What a difference from the top-down, lockstep mentality of the Rethugs. Elite white male control freaks.

What’s Hillary doing? Tryin to win- that’s what she’s doing. That’s what people DO when they run for president…it’s twenty seconds left in the fourth quarter and she’s down by four baskets- but she’s tryin ta win.

Streaming video, no screaming…

I dunno, why not one person one vote with all the parimaries on the same day?

Exactly.

And it has been determined that it’s hard to keep a keyboard dry in the shower.

Exactly.

Yes. Why not?

just wrap that rascal :D

Well that favors those with the most name recognition. Had we done it that way this year- Hillary would be the nominee.

The longer unfolding process gives candidates with less name recognition but with more charisma a chance to win the thing.

because the primary would then be decided entirely by national tv advertisements. no retail politics. no meeting the people. (or very little).

American Idol.

Agreed. And a host of other negatives. I think the regional idea is the best I’ve seen floated.

Money. Do you know how much the companies make which own the advertising media? (And this blog too, if we can talk about the relationship between business and journalistic functions of these entities in a friendly manner).

I think that this has been a good primary. It’s been hard fought- but relatively clean as politics goes. I like the democratic party- I like the battles- it still seems like a raucous labor union at times….

It’s a good thing that we had a battle and not a coronation.

Hear! Hear! I’d take that over shooter tinkering amok in the basement with the kids’ science-fair project any day!

Because:
A) No one candidate would get anywhere near the number of delegates needed for the nomination.
B) Name recognition would become one of the major factors. That plus
C) The candidate with the most money could saturate the airwaves with ads in the big media markets.
D) Candidates would ignore all the small states and any semblance of “retail” politics and go directly to the “tarmac” politics
E) We’d be back to the back room deal making.

As flawed as the current system may be, it still forces the candidates to meet directly with individual voters and address voter concerns. Single primary day would lose that completely.

seems like the vetting and caucus building could be moved to getting a candidate on the primary ballot.

-um- my tv remote in the kitchen is kept in a ziploc. Works like a charm.
Never say never…

but that is what i mean, no delegates. peoples’ vote instead.

Which again would smack of back room deals. Who does the vetting? Who decides who gets on the ballot and who doesn’t?

But you’ve also got to consider the profits that major media gain from a protracted campaign. These guys, yeah dem guys, are making financial killings.

Remember, it is the Democratic Party selection of the Democratic Party nominee for the Presidency. The Democratic Party is a quasi private organization that is allowed to use public resources (state voting set-ups) to help in the selection process. There is no requirement for “1 person, 1 vote.”

At least in the Democratic Party, the rules require proportionate representation based on votes received and a convention that reflects the make-up of the voters in the party, i.e., reflects the racial AND gender make-up.

Unlike the Rs which is mainly old white men.

On this blog, we are the advertisers. Some of us send money, hint.

How about… states divided into five regions.

Ten weeks of primary voting with each region voting every two weeks.

No television or radio advertising (like France).

Rotate which region votes first each election cycle.

Also, conduct all primaries within March and April.. with allowances for run offs or other corrective measures to take place in early June.

Don’t bring common sense into this fight … *g*

((( ES )))

I’ve been involved in and following the selection of presidential nominees for the Democratic Party most of my life, even before I was old enough to vote. For once, there has been a campaign that has not been decided within the first ten or so states voting.

For years, everyone has complained about how the voting and decision was done prior to their state getting a chance to vote. Now that for once most every state is having a say, folks want to change it?

Why?

I just logged on to FDL and turned on the TV a few minutes ago. Does anybody sense a direction in which this thing appears to be moving?

my bad. *s

Having just one primary might push the campaign even earlier, even to 2010, for the 2012 Presidential election. Candidates would run campaigns well ahead of the deadline for determining who gets on the primary ballots in 2012. Permanent elections? Insane?

Yep, that’s the plan I like. Just mentioning it makes the heads of the Rethug elite old white male control freaks explode. And that’s the part I really like.

Good point. If we really are a democracy, then we should have extended discussions and spirited debate about real issues.

This year has shown that all those states that rushed to move up their primaries made a mistake in doing that. They would have had more influence by staying back. Imagine if the presidential part of the CA primary were still in June.

why would you want to be represented by a private organization?

oh, i like it!

hmmm off the top of my head, i’d propose a couple of tweaks.

each region votes within the two week window, but not all at once. the order of individual state’s voting (within a region) would rotate each election cycle also.

then one week off (with no state voting) between each region’s two weeks of voting. that would extend the process to 14 weeks.

The Democratic Party is an organization open to the public but it is allowed to establsih the rules for participation.

Because it is allowed to establish its own rules, I consider it a quasi-private organization.

The key is, if you don’t like the rules as written, get involved at the precinct level and work your way up.

I suppose I would ask what would be the regions. The other is that it would be fairer if states balance for population from various regions were chosen to have their primaries on the same day rather than basically given a different region each campaign cycle first position and essentially the right to choose the candidate.

and no super delegates. the people decide.

An improvement would be to have 10 states from different areas of the country voting each week for 5 weeks. To not favor one region over another.

Ickes just made my head explode saying that the exit polls got it so wrong. No, Klown Kar, the vote tabulators got it wrong!

I’ll take my primary in March, thank you very much. Had enough of watching scarcely populated Iowa and NH pick presidential candidates for me.

What is this “fair reflection” crap Ickes keeps bring up?

They just can’t shut up Clinton supporter Ickes.

but thats like RTFM when you just want it to work :)

Did I just hear Ickes say delegates should be apportioned on the basis of exit polls?

Ickes is getting on my last nerve.

Boy, Clinton really picked a bunch of winners as advisers, didn’t she?

i guess i’ve seen the benefit of the regions is that it makes campaigning at the retail level easier. anything the bring the candidates in contact with the voters seems like a good thing to me.

are there other ways to do this?

What state are you residing in? Is it a small enough state where the candidates would be forced to mee with individual voters and speak with real people or is it somewhere like California or New York or Florida where the closest the votes can get is watching from the back of an auditorium.

Iowa and NH are not perfect by any means but they actually do force the candidates to address real voters and real voter concerns and not just media markets.

Yup and with all that money … wonder what DK or Edwards would have done with all that coin ?