When I was asked if I'd like to review Charles R. Morris's The Trillion Dollar Meltdown, I replied "why not, it's a book I should have already read anyway." I'm glad to be able to say that I was right, unless you've been intimately involved in financial markets for the past two or three decades, Morris's book has something to teach you about why the current financial crisis is happening. He explains not just the mechanics of the meltdown, in the most jargon-free prose I've seen, but in describing the crises of the past decades, including the crash of 87, the S&L debacle and the collapse of the Collateralized Mortgage Obligation (CMO) market in the early 90s (which I hadn't even heard of, and I suspect I'm not alone) he is able to show the features all have in common.
Morris does all this in a relatively slim volume, clocking in at 169 pages, not including some fairly extensive notes. The book is well organized, with chapters generally proceeding chronologically, but sections in chapters dealing with classes of securities or financial activities. At the end of it, you'll have a good grasp of the major types of instruments, how they work and what the problems are with each of them. More importantly you'll have a sense of the commonalities that underlie all the problems.
At the heart of the book is the process of securitization. If you've been following the crisis over the last year or so you've heard the acronyms—CDO's (Collateralized Debt Obligations), ABS's (Asset Backed Securities), CLOs (Collateralized Loan Obligations), RMBS's (Residential Market-Backed Securities) and so on. Enough to make one wonder if the financial sector is looking to win the "alphabet soup" crown away from the army.
But I've never read anyone explain as well as Morris what they actually are and how they came to be. Or why they matter so much. The key is that the process of securitization allows you take anything that you can assign a value, a default chance and a return to and make it perform almost identically to a vanilla bond.
Well, in theory.
In a RMBS, for example, a pool of mortgages is used to support an issuance of bonds. These bonds are divided into groups, called tranches, by likelihood of default and expected return. Top tranches have first claim on income, but only get a small return. The low tranches absorb any defaults first, but they have much higher returns. The combination gives both a high quality low default bonds (the high tranches), and high risk, high return bonds (the low tranches). Most tranches are high quality, usually on order of 80% (after all, a 20% default would be massive) but the number of CDOs which can be sold depends heavily not on how many people will buy the best tranches, but rather the appetite for the lower tranches, known as "toxic waste."
This process is, frankly, a brilliant innovation. As Morris notes sardonically when speaking of Long Term Capital Management, the hedge fund whose '98 collapse the Fed feared could smash the world financial system, "As a general rule, only the very smartest people can make truly catastrophic mistakes."
It's genius because securitization doesn't just work with mortgages. It doesn't even just work with assets like manufacturing equipment or commercial property. You can build CDOs on top of almost anything. For example an arrangements like credit default swaps. A credit default swap is where one party guarantees to take on the risk of default on another party's loans in exchange for regular payments. As of mid-2007, per Morris, there were 45 trillion dollars worth of credit default swaps outstanding. Many of which had then been turned into CDOs. So first you have, say a mortgage-backed security. Then, on top of that you have a credit default swap based on insurance of the chance that those mortgages (plus probably some others) will default. The relation of the CDOs to the underlying securities is getting rather faint. And sometimes there are CDOs which are based on other CDOs, these are referred to as CDO². There are even some CDO³.
The end result is that the asset base backing up the securities is an inverted pyramid. The securities are worth much more than the actual assets behind them.
But, let's step it back a bit, to something mentioned earlier.
You can do all this—turn anything into a security, if you can value it—and, more importantly, if you know what the default risk is.
And that's a problem, because determining the default risk on these sorts of exotic instruments is very difficult. And who's going to believe the numbers you come up with? The answer that the creators of these securities found was to go to the ratings agencies, companies like Moodys which had specialized in rating debt issuances by companies and governments for how likely they were to be paid back. They'd give them information and the ratings agencies would come up with a default chance. That number would be plugged into the model and with that number values and returns could be determined.
Unfortunately the ratings agencies models seemed to operate mostly by assuming that the era of free money of the mid-years of the decade could and would go on forever. It also seemed to assume both that there was no fraud going on in the origination and packaging of the various original loans and that the loans were high quality, when instead they were as a group probably the lowest quality loans made since the 1920's, and perhaps in all of American history. Morris points out that the ratings agencies seem to have taken about 3 years of low defaults and assumed they'd go on forever — they didn't even look back a decade.
In computer programming there's a phrase known as GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Although Morris never uses that word, this is an important part of what he's discussing. The default values were simply incorrect. Thus all the sophisticated math; all the fancy computers and billions of cycles, were meaningless. Put the wrong numbers into your formulas and you'll get the wrong results. (All of this assuming the math was correct to begin with, which I have some doubt about. But even if it is, it wouldn't work if the inputs were wrong.)
In this case, since the default rate is turning out to be much higher than expected, the value of the securities created is turning out to be much less than the people who bought and sold them expected.
So, a higher default rate is bad. But if that was the entire problem it wouldn't be all that bad. The lower tranches would get hit a bit, but most of the companies involved would survive.
There's an old line amongst traders which runs as follows: genius is leverage and a rising market.
Here's another one for you: catastrophe is a leverage and falling market.
And that's the problem. The primary actors are almost all very highly leveraged. To start most of them have taken a small amount of base capital and then they have borrowed at a multiple against it. To paraphrase an example Morris gives, imagine that you raise 20 million from investors. Now borrow 80 million. You're up to 100 million. You're 5:1 leveraged. If you were to straight up invest that money, and lost 20% of the value of your investment, you'd be wiped out.
20% is a pretty big move, mind you. If that's all that had been done, it would be unfortunate, but not too bad. But imagine now that you have invested in something that itself is leveraged - say $100 million in first-loss bonds underpinning a 2 billion CDO. If 100 million is underpinning the losses of 2 billion, that's a 20 to 1 ratio. A loss of 1% of the CDO's value wipes out 20 million in value.
Now imagine that CDO drops 3%. The purchasers initial capital was 20 million. They've just taken a 60 million loss—all their capital, plus 40 million.
Of course, if it's just happened to one CDO, no big deal. They make it up from elsewhere. But what if it's happening across the board? What if the entire class of mortgage backed securities, say, is experiencing much higher losses than anticipated. What if they are all collapsing in price? And if the industry, not just this company, but almost all banks, brokerage houses and hedge funds, have invested in a lot of these sorts of leveraged deals?
Catastrophe: Leverage and falling market.
This is the heart of Morris's book. Securitization. Leverage. Group Think. Add in agency problems, where mortgage brokers, for example, knowing that they won't be holding onto the mortgages don't bother to make sure that people can pay them back, add two scoops of "no regulation because we believe the free market can regulate itself", and you have—
Catastrophe.
And yet, I haven't nearly done the book justice. Morris discusses all of this within the context of the times larger economic and philosophical background, tracing free-market ideology (which I like to call free market fundamentalism) back to Chicago school style economics with its belief that governments should never intervene in private markets and that private markets are capable of self-correcting and self-regulating. Clearly, Morris points out, this is not the case. The free market is capable of doing great things, and Morris gives it great credit for the good times in the 80's and the mid 90's, but it is also prone to excesses it can't itself control.
Nor, Morris points out, do we actually live in a free market system when it comes to the financial industry. Instead the financial industry is clearly privileged. It earns far more profits than the average for the economy, and has done so for a couple decades now. On the face of it, that doesn't make sense, until you think about what's happening right now and what has happened in most financial crises—the government has stepped into stem losses and kept many companies from going under when in a "free market" they would otherwise have done so.When you socialize the losses and privatize the profits, well, yes, profits will be high.
On top of that there is a virtuous cycle between and industry's profit and government actions. Morris uses the example of how student loans are guaranteed by the government, but the profits from the loans mostly accrue to a private company. It's not efficient. It is, in fact, a direct transfer of public money to private. Although Morris doesn't use the example, one could also look at how hedge fund managers recently managed to dodge additional taxation. They do give a great deal of money to politicians, after all.
Morris touches on a number of other areas—from the overprinting of dollars by the Fed and the collapse of the US dollar and the devastation wrought by private equity firms who take a loan out to buy a company, have the company pay them a billion dollar dividend, put the loan on the company's books, lay off a bunch of people and then sell stock back to the public. End result, a company that is a lot less healthy than before you took it over. But your bank account looks great. And you did it all with other people's money. Nice "work" if you can get it.
The book draws to a close by looking at how large the problem is, which Morris puts at tentatively a trillion dollars (if anything, an underestimate) and then with some suggestions on how to fix the system, including:
-
Capital requirements for all financial firms so that leverage is limited.
-
Credit insurance to only be counted if the entity offering it has credible reserves of its own (I'd rather just ditch credit insurance entirely, I think it's best to keep leverage ratios under firm control and insurance will reduce overall system capitalization.)
-
Loan originators have to absorb first losses. This means an end to mortgage brokers, say, giving loans to people who will probably default, since they're the ones who will pay the price if they do.
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Credit derivatives to trade on an exchange to provide proper market prices.
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Restore some form of Glass-Steagall and stop banks and investment banks and brokers from all dipping into the same business.
Most importantly, Morris notes that when we had our last truly major financial crisis, the era of stagflation, the United States, in the person of Fed Chairman Volcker, bit the bullet hard and did the brutal work necessary to wring inflation out of the economy and bring the money supply back under control. When Japan had its meltdown in the late 80's, a meltdown that looks a lot like what is happening in the US, especially in terms of an overinflated housing market, it never really cleared the books or made the hard decisions. As a result, 20 years later, Japan has never really recovered, and is still in what has become known as the bright Depression.
So, since Charles finished his book in late 2007, and since a great deal has happened since then I'd like to ask what he thinks of how the financial crisis has been handled since then, and especially how the Fed has handled it.
- Do you think the Fed auction facility is a good idea?
- Do you believe Goldman Sachs was wise to "buy" Bear-Sterns and was the Fed was right to underwrite Goldman Sachs' purchase of Bear-Sterns.
- Does the Fed's essential guarantee of all the toxic waste qualify as making the hard decisions necessary to resolve the situation?
- Will further deleveraging overwhelm the Fed, and if it doesn't what is the economic consequence of socializing so many losses?
- Do you still hold to your 1 trillion estimate? If not, what numbers are you looking at now and what has changed?
Please welcome Charles Morris to the Lake. As always in Book Salons please stay on topic and take any off topic comments to the prior post's thread.
And if you want to understand what's been happening, why it's happening, and how it's likely to play out, buy a copy of the book. I'm sure it won't be the last book on the crisis, but it's definitely the primer that you need to understand the basic mechanics of what happened and to place them in a larger historical context.
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Charles, welcome to the Lake.
Ian, welcome and thank you for Hosting today.
Good Afternoon Ian and welcome to FDL Mr Morris.
FYI, I hope folks do show up but the live blogging of the DNC Rules committee seems to have captured the attention of a lot of folks.
Hello, Ian and Charles! Looking forward to the discussion.
I’m here for the duration of the chat!
Welcome to the lake Charles. Very glad to have you here today.
Thanks all; glad to be here.
According to Nouriel Roubini, as I understand his point, is that the essential problem with excessively divvied up and remoteness of the holder of a highly derivative security from the underlying risk is that multiple parties can ignore the reality of the value of the risk so long as they have confidence that they can just pass it on to someone else. This sounds to me like exactly the same thing as a classical pyramid scheme: the real value of what you have to sell doesn’t matter so long as a potential buyer believes there is yet another buyer down the line.
Is this consistent with your view, Charles?
Oh, geeze! Sorry for the horrendous grammar there!
Uh Ian? Wasn’t it JPMorgan that just purchased Bear-Stearns instead of Goldman?
and I was going to ask if you had seen the “apology” that the former Bear-Stearns CEO “offered” when the deal was completed the other day?
Welcome Charles, very glad to have you here to discuss your book. Do you think there is a desire by some of the players in the financial market to disguise just how shaky things are?
You’re absolutely right, my bad. Due to a courier mess up I didn’t get the book till last night. So I was a little fogged while writing the above. Fixed it up.
In general, yes. Part of the problem is that securitized instruments actually performed very well for a long time. Securitization allowed pension funds and other natural long-term holders to take positions in prime residential mortgages, which added much liquidity to the market and saved homeowners tens of billions annually for 10-15 years. After 2004, however, Wall Street started to securitize junk mortgages. I think the market had been lulled by the decades of excellent performance of AAA-rated mortgage-backed bonds. Most holders were buying for the long-term. The hot-potato game was just 2-3 stops — from a mortgage banker to a bank or a hedge fund off to the long-term holder.
Not SOME covering up, nearly all. It took a long time for banks to start to come clean on their problems, and there is still a long way to go.
Hey not to worry. All those investment banks seem to operate alike anyway (and the CEOs damn sure seem to look alike - overly well-fed and smarmy).
Like a few dozen politicians we’ve come to know and loathe.
I have not had the opportunity to read the book, but I will be ordering one soon. I have a particular concern about the effect on home prices, and ways to secure home values. Will bankruptcy Judges ability to reset interest rates make any difference?
Any chance the Banks will get any penalty for targeting minorities with subprime loans?
What is most likely to collapse first Banks, HedgeFunds, Saving @ Loans, and why who are they likely to take out as they collapse?
The best bankruptcy tool would be to convert the mortgage into a long-term lease at market rates. Most of the mortgage ‘rescue’ plans are really bank bailouts. The homeowner will get stuck with a mortgage that will will still be close to 100% of value on an asset with a value that is likely to keep falling for another year or so. That’s doing anyone a favor. Rentals are still usually much cheaper.
Can the fed stop the collapse of financial firms? Or has it already, as some on the Street seem to believe?
I doubt it. The truth was they were targeting anyone who would accept a high-rate mortgage. That’s all they cared about. They did target black neighborhoods in NYC and Hispanic ones elsewhere, bu I can’t see much coming from that kind of law suit that is likely to help anyone.
That’s an interesting plan, and not one I’d thought of. My original suggestion was for the government to offer to buy out mortgages at a discount (probably 30% or so, since that seems like a decent estimate of what the price slide will be anyway), thus setting a floor under prices, then reset them to simple fixed rate long term mortgages with some protections against having them flipped. In the end the government makes a profit, the banks take a loss, but not a catastrophic one.
However, long term leases may be a cleaner idea. In such a case who would own the underlying property?
Are there any calendar dates we should keep in mind as we watch this financial situation unfold when banks and government have to report numbers?
Can we trust the Governments numbers Alan Ablson at Barron’s magszine has some doubts about Elaine Chao’s labor Debt numbers is he right?
Where can we get numbers we can trust I keep reading $15 to $1 leverage, $30 to $1 leverage now $35 to $1 leverage ARRGH!
Does any one have real numbers?
Hedge funds fail all the time. Carlyle’s new mortgage-backed fund went under a very short time after it went public for instance. There is no specific position you can associate with hedge funds as an industry.
A lot of the regional banks are likely to be in trouble soon. The FDIC has been hiring a lot of bankruptcy folks. Most of them are heavily weighted in both residential and commercial mortgages, with exposures far over their capital. There are likely to be a lot of forced regional mergers.
The bank. With a clean mark-to-market based on a multiple of the actual rent.
Any chance of that idea passing Congress have the Presidential Candidates any good ideas on this topic.
The Fed clearly avoided the crash of Bear Stearns. The BS shareholders got nothing, but the systemic consequences avoided for the time being. Not clear how much more of that they can do at this point.
People don’t realize that the Fed has already ‘temporarily’ taken on some $400 Billion (!) of bank and investment bank assets (inc. an unknown quantity of ‘private highly-rated mortgage-backed securities’ onto its balance sheet. That’s half the backing for our currency.
?? ” a clean mark to market based on a multiple of the actual rent”?
you lost me with that one. How does that work? What are the tax implications of the lease versus ownership?
How would rent be determined?
How do our current financial problems compare in size to the 70’s
Will Helicopter Ben raise rates now or will he wait for a Democrat to be elected President?
What can get us out of the end of this Minsky cycle besides a rate increase
Yes, the US’s monetary base is about half used up. The Fed has 400 billion to go, then it can, in effect print money. Do you think they will do that if they have to? Will they have to? And if they do, what would be the consequences?
The rhythm is a wave of gloom after every quarter, market recovery as the Jim Cramers of the world pump up stocks, then another cycle of gloom. Commercial banks tend to leveraged in the 10-12:1 range; investment banks nominally in the 30:1 range. That does overstate a tad, though. It’s derived by dividing equity into gross assets, which includes goodwill, intangibles etc, plus, say, securities lent that are fully collateralized. The I-banks make the case, mostly accurately, that their true leverage is more like 20:1.
More worrisome than leverage, however, is liquidity. Almost all the I-banks especially fund themselves with shortest-term instruments, so they’re always at risk of a market disruption as Bear was. They lost 18B in a couple of days, when people refused to roll over their repos. Same with Countrywide.
I just mean that there can be no argument about what the asset is worth.
Yes but was the stuff they the Fed took on taken on at face or its current value? If the value of the assets the Fed took declines further can and will the Fed ask for more collateral from the Banks?
If a bank fails will the Fed do a firesale on the assets it got from the banks at these prices in this market or will the Fed wait for a better market?
That is when the inflation limit kicks in. In the 70s, a moment passed when the rules of the game suddenly changed. At one moment, if the Fed eased, rates dropped. All of a sudden, if the Fed eased, rates ROSE, and sharply. The rules suddenly flipped. Inflation fears predominated. I think we’re on that knife’s-edge now. So they can’t blow up the balance sheet. Bernanke has actually been reining money in a tad.
The big difference between now and the 70s is that wages are flat. In the 70s, union contracts were driving COLAs — almost like Brazil’s indexation in the 60s and 70s. I think rates will rise, whether the Fed wants them to or not — see my answer to Ian above.
Roubini keeps harping on the idea that this not just a liquidity situation, but a solvency situation. Could you explain what he means, and whether your opinion differs?
On face vs. market value: Ah! No one knows. The Fed isn’t breaking them out. It’s clearly a rescue. The pressures are all to take them at the best possible value so the banks are once again liquid.
Charles,
when you say, “I just mean that there can be no argument about what the asset is worth” do you mean that a number that is so low everyone can agree that it is worth at least that much. Would you limit this relief to only those in bankruptcy and would the lerm of the lease be based on an amortization of some kind?
Details, details, that devil is always in the details. Further, If the bank owns the house, I am Guessing the mortgage exemption is lost for tax purposes?
In old times Kings would go to Parliament when they needed money. Presidents went to Congress today the Fed seems to be financing Bush’s war by issuing so much debt that we are devaluing the Dollar the end effect being that the President doesn’t need to go to Congress for money.
Should Congress try to get the power of the purse back from the Fed? Congress approves all Bush’s spending but the Fed can push off the eventual payday so far away that Congress thinks there is no cost.
However I know that the Republicans who voted for the war will scream if we attempt to raise taxes to pay for the war they voted on.
No one knows maybe Congress can ask Ben some real questions for once! Sorry just venting.
I quite agree with that. A ‘liquidity’ problem means that there are good assets out there that can’t get reasonable financing because of some kind of endogeneous disruption of normal market functioning. Bernanke called the Bear a ‘liquidity’ issue. It really wasn’t. They had some $460B in mortgage securities that could value only with their internal models. It was a big chunk of their assets, and short-term lenders worried that they could get stuck if half of those things had to be written off. That is a solvency problem. These were NOT good assets — hence the $29B non-recourse line of credit before JPM would take over Bear essentially for free.
Kudos to Ian for lining up our guest a topic. Sadly, I have to run for family obligations. I will be pouring over the thread this evening though.
congrats on your most recent book Charles.
Normal house prices tend to be 12-14x market rentals. Been up to 25 or so during the bubble. I haven’t tried to work out the details. The idea originated with Dean Baker at CEPR in Washington. You can get details on his web site — just google dean baker. Lot of variants being floated around. For most lower-income folks, it would probably be a much deal than a mortgage.
One thing I didn’t emphasize in the post was how Charles embeds what happens in historian Schlessinger Sr’s partisan cycles. The cycles are about 30 years or so, are periods of dominance of either conservative or liberal ideology, and end when the failures of the ideology in question bring it down and the other ideology takes over with a different set of solutions.
Assuming this is a correct way of looking at it, Charles, do you think we’re quite there yet? Or can we expect “one more round” even if we wind up with a heavily Democratic Congress and a Democratic president? Is the era about over, or does it have one last gasp in it?
Thanks for explaining. I get the sense that Roubini knows what he is talking about, but having no training in finance or economics, I have a lot of trouble understanding him.
Well, we’ll find out, right?
One thing I like about it is that it solves the problems of predatory lending with those people very neatly - they have a lease, not a mortgage, so they can’t be sold lines of credit, 3rd mortgages, etc… My suggestion required more complicated methods to keep the mortgage unencumbered and people from just doing it all over again.
And speaking of that, there is also a non-economic-rationality component to Fed and Govt decisionmaking, especially in election years, which is to maneuver so as to make the opposition party look as bad as possible, and the ruling party as good as possible.
Government you point out always regulates after a crash to fix the mistakes that caused that crash but preparing to fight the last war is a loser idea .
Either banks will find new loopholes or lobby to be deregulated saying that the old laws are not needed.
What laws past, present or future are the most important do you think to stop a bubble?
Also how much cash should banks keep in case a loan goes bad
What level of margin buying is to high $15 to $1, $30 to $1
Also will and how big will a tax payer bailout of the banks be? Will the hedgefunds also get bailed out because they are to big to fail.
An important criticism of the recent Fed, including both AG and BB, is that it’s acted almost as an arm of the govt. In part, Congress semi-mandated that when they added to its charge that it should equal emphasis on maintaining full employment as well as maintaining value of currency. Both Dems and Reps now look to the Fed just to keep bubbles going, and they’ve largely succumbed.
It’s ironic that the universally endorsed regulatory solution seems to be to give the Fed power over everything, which is likely to make it even more politicized.
Can you explain in more detail how this encourages bubbles?
Ian, Charles, thanks for being here. I just bought the book.
‘What laws past, present or future are the most important do you think to stop a bubble?’
Leverage restrictions and honest accounting are most important.
‘Also how much cash should banks keep in case a loan goes bad’
10-12:1 works fine with honest accounting (and ratings when rated instruments are on the balance sheet.)
‘What level of margin buying is to high $15 to $1, $30 to $1′
Depends on the risk. In some things, like interest rate or currency swaps, leverage can reasonably be quite high. On illiquid instruments, high leverage is crazy.
‘Also will and how big will a tax payer bailout of the banks be? Will the hedgefunds also get bailed out because they are to big to fail.’
I don’t know, see my post on the Fed’s asset lending above. I don’t think a hedge fund will ever be bailed out. LTCM set the the boundaries for that, I *think*.
You mention that we are the only country where kids graduate from college with heavy debt loads, heavy compared to what?
Also SLM gives student loans at $11 per $100 while the Congressional Budget Office gives it at $4.50 per $100 you say that ” If all loans were financed through the direct loan program, the savings could finance full tuition grants for a million more students.”
Does that number include the costs of the late fees SLM charges and the bribes it gives campus loan officers?
Is there anything that can be done wrt the licensing of accountants and auditors? Can you speak to how they missed this?
Thanks for coming!
It seems to me that the opportunities for outright fraud here are just massive.
‘heavy debt loads’
I haven’t researched everywhere, obviously, but no European country charges for education the way we do. Some, admittedly, have a lot of slackers hanging around campuses all their lives.
On the savings, I don’t know why the differences are so great, but a lot of it clearly went to unnecessary, and possibly, evil things.
It’s very strict now. The problem is that in crisis after crisis, the accountants turn venal. Enron, S&L, name it. Humans screw up most good systems.
Cynic!
Hedge funds are holding a lot of the “toxic waste” tranches. If too many go under and release a flood of waste into the market, could they take down otherwise stable banks who have loaned them the money they’re using to bet?
And would that reasoning perhaps convince the Fed that they need to intervene?
I’m a
recoveringex Republican. I used to think that the “free-markets” meant that greedy capitalists would keep each other in line.Simply because the Fed has gradually assumed responsibility for maintining economic growth. In Europe, the ECB is charged only with maintaining a stable currency. That can justify bank rescues from time to time, but they’re not implicitly targeting a growth rate. The Fed always (well, often) used to be the countervailing power against the political instinct to pump up any bubble until the next election. Bernanke seems very sensitive to any slowing of growth, which was not supposed to be the head banker’s job.
SLM’s expensive handling of student loans suggests that there are somethings government does better than private industry like healthcare look at us and France, Power companies deregulation gave us Enron, Oh and have you heard the joke about how to make a small fortune in the Airline business? Start with a big fortune.
I think the rule is when ever we want a service more than we want profit it should be regulated (I just made that up)
Anyway is there any other industry that you think should be regulated more and or completely.
I’m thinking the accounting industry or they could just enforce the existing rules more.
My guess is that the hedge funds would go down, and the banks would be rescued.
Ian, thanks for terrific description in your intro. I lot of the conservative Republicans I talk to, want to blame the sub-prime collapse on Federal laws requiring banks to loan to minorities. Your always lucid posts at FDL have helped me to try and at least set them straight.
Do you believe there was undue pressure put on the ratings agencies to give poor quality financial instruments high ratings?
I mean, what would have happened if they had just said, we will not give an inflated rating, and if that means your pension funds et al can’t buy this, too bad?
So what would the Fed be doing differently than lowering interest rates every time growth slows (which is what I assume you think is what gooses bubbles)?
Bernanke seems very sensitive to any slowing of growth,
At least as long as Bush is in office.
I think the pressure was implicit in that, as I understand it, they were receiving very high fees from the entities holding these securities.
I wind up the book with some pretty liberal stuff. I do think the pendulum has swung much too far, just as it had swung much too far in the other direction by the mid-70s. there are no ‘right’ answers in politics. It’s like the mgmt consultants who always tell centralized companies to decentralize and vice-versa. In fact, that’s almost always right, because each form of organization solves some probems and creates others, so you should change every x years. The political cycles in US seem to run about 25 years.
I think Democrats have to make the point that competition between suppliers in our economic system is pretty rare. Most markets are filled by oligopolies who find it a lot easier to bludgeon the underfunded government agencies tasked with regulating them, than actually compete with each other.
Any place to get real information on the hedge funds? I don’t trust the business channels…any of them. IBD is ok but to rah rah I’m thinking od getting the Financial Times. What do you think or I read Seeking Alpha and Calculated Risk on the net anyone else you can suggest?
It does seem, as you say in the book, that they no longer understand their job is to “take the punchbowl away”. Perhaps Volcker imprinted me as a teenager, but I’ve long despised Greenspan as an inflationist, and so far Bernanke has been printing money like it’s going out of style.
As you also note in the book, when the world’s reserve currency prints too much money, it causes worldwide inflation and problems. Volcker fixed the last time that happened. I wonder if Bernanke will?
If he does, will it work?
And if he doesn’t, will the dollar officially lose its reserve status. Or might it anyway? Is the dollar’s day as the world’s reserve currency done no matter what, when Sovereign Wealth Funds hold so much cash, and when the US balance of payments, trade deficit and government deficits are so high?
Wasn’t ‘pressure’ so much as, especially Moodys, had just gone public and was looking for revenue. Honest people seem to get confused by money a lot. Including accountants, btw. It’s not as if they’re taking bribes. The BIS did an post-mortem on risk management at big banks. Most of them saw the problems, but only a few of them didn’t get shot down by top managers or the sales side. When Merrill was making huge profits from securitizing subprime, what do you think happened to the guy who told his boss, ‘We should stop this stuff. I think it can cause a lot of problems.’ He was told to shut up and do his numbers over.
Good question.
There’s a reason they’re called “black boxes.”
It’s sometimes true. Markets usually allocate clear-cut things better than planners. Sometimes the externalities overwhelm, however. Bureaucrats on an ego-trip can do a lot of damage too.
Thank you. Completely agree.
I’m a real fan of Volcker, of course.
The foreign central bank funding of our deficits has gone on longer than I, or many others, expected. Some signs of cracking now. By pegging to the dollar and putting their money into Treasuries, they also import inflation. The Saudis, eg, buy almost everything in euros. On the other hand, we protect them from the shiites.
Do the obscene compensation plans that allow upper management of the banks and such to pocket millions come into play with these problems?
The various banks write the mortgages, pocket fees, sell everything off then repeat the cycle. Management pockets millions for establishing these ponzi scheme/house of cards built on air and walk away like they had nothing to do with the problem
Seems some confiscatory tax plans could help re-establish some coherency in these areas.
Or I might be an idiot.
Not an idiot. Just doomed to frustration.
You are being very kind.
I know a Bethany McClean and others got some credit for writing about Enron long before it collapsed. Who in your opinion were the early prophets about sub-prime collapse?
I only got as far as the SLM part of the book. I do agree we have gone to far in one direction but what would be sign that we have gone to far left?
Kevin Phillips notes in “Wealth and Democracy” that the first millionaires in the US were :
1) defense contractors
2) currency speculators.
The Currency speculators bought up Colonial Currency which was available for pennies per wagonload, and then convinced congress to stand behind it…
Somethin like that may end up happening with these horseshit securities?
Yeah, I wrote an article predicting that they’d stop financing the US to the tune of, oh 10% of GDP.
I predicted 2006. Oops. All through this mess, everything has taken longer to crack up than I expected. It’s been appropriately humbling and very interesting.
Still, I agree, that which can’t continue forever, doesn’t.
Because coherency and management of financial markets can be considered oxymorons?
Can Bernanke hold things together in your opinion?
Is a cult of personality in government Left or Right with no body stopping it asking for to much or to little regulation is that the key?
On blogs, nakedcapitalism is one of the very best. institutional risk analytics is very good. Also some economists, like Krugman and Rodik. brad setser on currency, and Steve Waldman — just google him — is the best detailed Fed watcher. Alea on derivatives. Roubini as the uber-bear,
One feature of the credit crucnh is that the bloggers have kept the rest of the world honest. Waldman was the first to expose what the Fed was doing with its balance sheet.
Lots of folks were on to it very early. The smartest started short funds, and they all got murdered, or course. I put all my savings into cash by 2005 two years too early. Volcker told me that he was really scared by 2003 or so, and by 2006, was guessing that, maybe, he was just wrong.
John Paulson has being lionized for making billions be betting against subprime in early 2007, but he was one of a long line of similarly minded fgolks, who was lucky enough to place his bet at the right time.
The guy who really looks bad is Steve Forbes, Oil price bubble about to burst, says business guru Forbes
The old metric is to wait till the bears start caving and thinking it’ll go on forever, then you know it’s close to the bottom.
Or so I’m told, as noted, I’m one who didn’t get the timing right either.
Don’t think that’s true. Vanderbilt in steamboats and RRs, Carnegie and Rockefeller. Traders like Robert Morris in the early days. Was no defense industry till civil war really, lot of people made money out of it. That sounds like Charles Beard-era progressivism.
I think about half the truly rich right now are actually based on real-estate. Or that was true about 4 years ago, not sure if things have changed since then. The suburban machine has been the surest route to wealth for a few generations now.
Just ‘management of markets’ is.
hi all…colonial Merika…slaves =big $$$$$$$
How much of the price of oil is speculation? What is the real price?
I think it is in a bubble myself now but I could be wrong.
You’re talkin about a later period. This was just after the Revolutionary War.
I was thinking of that, but most of those plantations were cash-poor and deeply in debt. Jefferson lived well, but was insolvent when he died.
They did it for the life style more than the money.
tobacco,cotton,anything slave produced
I don’t see how we get our manufacturing base back (reduce trade imbalance) without some kind of protective tariffs? Any comment would be appreciated.
I am expendable, how bout you?
We’re not talking about a defense industry per se- but people who sold salt pork and beans and whatever else to the revolutionary army.. many became millionaires- which was a hell of a lot of money at the time.
he lived an extravagant life…hahahaha,a nice Jewish fellow bought his estate
i am now freaking out about the greenback…shudder
Robert Morris probably qualified as a millionaire before the war, and Ben Franklin may have as well. In pre-revolutionary America shipping and trading built some sizeable fortunes. (Even excluding the slavers; but presumably including the opium trade.) All traders had to deal in currencies, but middleman isn’t a dishonorable profession.
But I could be wrong.
i am expandable!
Interesting question. I’m more inclined to the “this is mostly the result of Peak Oil”- but we’ll see.
lol :)
Focus on green tech?
actually im in a contraction…( on a diet) …miss my carbs boo hoo
im not sure i believe that PO biz
On Robt. Morris:
During the War
A scene from The Apotheosis of Washington shows Morris receiving a bag of gold from Mercury, commemorating his financial services during the Revolutionary WarDuring the Revolutionary War, in December 1776, Morris stayed in Philadelphia when the rest of Congress ran away to Baltimore. He managed to borrow $10,000 to pay Washington’s troops. This helped to keep the Army together just before the battles of Trenton and Princeton.
In March 1778 Mr. Morris was chosen to sign the Articles of Confederation as a representative of Pennsylvania.
Morris’s great wealth increased thanks to privateers that seized the cargo of English ships during the war. Morris owned many of the privateer ships, and also helped to sell off the English spoils as they came into port.
Immediately after serving in the Congress Morris served two more terms on the state legislature, from 1778 to 1781. While he was in the Pennsylvania Assembly Morris worked to restore checks and balances to the state constitution, and to overturn the religious test laws, thus restoring voting rights to 40% of the citizens including Quakers, Jews and Mennonites. During this time Thomas Paine, Henry Laurens, and others criticized him and his firm for alleged war profiteering. A congressional committee acquitted Morris and his firm on charges of engaging in improper financial transactions in 1779, but his reputation was damaged after this incident.
Morris joined a Merchants Association which supplied war materials to the troops when the state failed to act. Pennsylvania went bankrupt in 1780 due to the failure of state controlled markets and self-imposed embargoes. Ultimately the state called on Morris to restore the economy. He did so by opening the ports to trade, and allowing the market to set the value of goods and the currency.
Brazil just had a huge oil discovery,but oil is fouling the enviorment,that is for sure
Dunno if Charles and Ian are still here, but thanks to both!! Great discussion!
Completely agree.
I think there’s tons out there with turbines (wind tidal basins, and rivers), batteries.
Lot of confusion on this point. We are the world’s largest manufacturer, with output some 5-6x greater than China’s. The dot.com crash followed a decade of *over*investment in manufacturing. We also have extremely high manufacturing productivity, which means we have relatively few manufacturing workers. China actually has shrinking it’s manufacturing work force faster than us, as they try to move up from the hand assembly stage.
China’s numbers, btw, are grossly exaggerated by being drawn from export prices. China makes the iPod, eg, but imports all of it, and adds some 1-2% of final price for final assembly and packaging. Its value-add on an iPod is trivial, but trade numbers give it$150 credit for each one.
When we had no manufacturing competition, we could be very inefficient and pay workers very well. When we had to compete for the first time in 1970s, we collapsed. (Our competiton reliably blew themselves up every 25 years or so.)
The right question is not whether we need $20/hour metal-bashing jobs ala 1965, but what sectors of the economy do provide accessible, well-paying jobs with good growth potential. (I know the answer.)
t is scary to think even the pros couldnt time the market,just right…so much manipulation
There are large pockets of oil in various places around the globe. I believe “Peak Oil” is generally dealing with the oil that is easy to find and refine.
Besides the damage to the environment in burning the oil, there is also the cost to extract and refine the oil from the inaccessible areas. And that is cost both in basic extraction but cost to the environment as well.
I’ve read a couple of books that are fairly convincing…
The Saudis have been milking the same four giant oil fields since the fifties.. They have scoured the whole country for decades and haven’t found anything else of the magnitude of the big four…The big four have been damaged in the past by attempting to produce too much too fast.
The saudis refuse to release data on production or support for their claimed reserves…it wouldn’t be at all surprising to discover that saudi oil production is peaking.
Most recent Economist has a good briefing on that. Nobody is really sure.
Much appreciated.
I’ll play straight man. What’s the answer? :)
Impressive! From the top of your head?
yes,alternatives seem a much wiser course
No–From wiki- I forgot to add that.
Thanks- that’s my impression as well.
Krugman did a pretty good column on the subject recently- but nothing decisive.
any relation?..”g”
I just caught up with the comments. I seem to remember us talking here in 2005 about the housing market going splat. Throughout most of 2006, you could see the first companies having problems. My view is that anyone in the financial industry or in economics who says that no one saw this coming is either stupid or a liar.
So much of what you are talking about is a direct consequence of moving from a worker based to investor based economy. Wages stagnate for ordinary Americans or drop while money is shoveled to the richest among us.
Last, I watch energy markets and the current bubble in crude began about around last August. Yet I have heard only a few reports in the last month or so relating this to the speculation that it so very clearly is, a play between the dollar and crude. And not supply and demand which is so often and erroneously trotted out to explain what is going on.
Nobody believes this, but it’s health care.
Driver in both semiconductors and biotech.
Lots of good career-path jobs for non-doctors — physicians’ assistants, phlebotomists, physical therapists, etc etc. Go to any big hopsital outpatient center, you’ll see hundreds and hundreds of young folks making 65-150,000 salries running million of equipment.
Huge source of Us competitive advantage.
And finally, and listen carefully, health care costs are falling very rapidly, and have been for a long time. Simple case, gall bladder surgery used to take a foot-long incision and require a week in the hopsital. Now it’s almost always a simple minimally invasive out patient deal. You’re bacvk to work the next day. It cost about half as much. So themarket has quintupled! When costs fall and product improves, spending rises! That’s the true story in health.
Our system is screwed because it’s been badly marketized and is very wasteful (altho no one cares about, say, jet skis being wasteful.) Lots of problems, but a wonderful industry.
Is that going to seep over into biomedical research? (PhysioProf says hopefully!)
No he was English. We’re Irish, probably serfs on a Fils de Maurice Irish plantation (Fitzmorris later)
Well articulated version of the opposite view..
Certainly the sinking dollar explains some percent of the increase–that’s a measurable component- but hardly the major one. Speculation is surely going on as well- and to the extent this is speculator induced- we are likely to see a bubble burst- like when them Texan brothers started fuckin with the price of silver a while back—-but supply is flat- not rising as one would expect if there were no production constraints….
At any rate- we’ll see fairly soon I should think.
In your opinion can we protect our patents in world markets and export some of that technology?
Govt spends more on biomedical research than on defense research, you could look it up. On *research*/ note. Defense R&D is bigger, but pure research much smaller. To the best of my knowledge Congress has never cutm in real terms, biomedical reseawrch.
Interesting. I didn’t know costs were dropping. Will have to look into that some more. The problem with health care, it seems to me, is that it smacks of “taking in each other’s laundry”. Although it may be possible to make some sort of exports out of it.
It’s a huge export earner. Medtronics is a lot like Intel, eg, with a 10-15 year time lag.
Can’t say anything useful on the patents
I had gallbladder surgery in ‘82 just before I got out of the AF and it split the differnce - my incision is about 5 inches long and I was out of the hospital four days after the surgery - though the incision did become infected.
oh well OLD money isnt all its cracked up to be,look at Chimpy”g”
Charles, thank you for stopping by the Lake today and spending the afternoon with us.
Ian, thank you for hosting this book salon.
FDL community, thank you for making this an enjoyable afternoon.
If you haven’t bought this excellent book, there is a link above.
Charles, thank you again.
In terms of actual dollars, NIH budget has been flat for about four years, which represents a constant decline in purchasing power.
DoD does a lot of “applied R&D” where it’s expected that 90plus per cent of the research will result in operational “toys”
thanks, much appreciated.
Once you can grow food and make everything without workers, services is all there is. So long as it earns the margins to keep investing in the other sectors.
To all, thank you for your time, pardon the occasional pontification, and have a good evening.
Thanks again, Charles and Ian!
Thank YOU enjoyed it.
Thanks for answering my numerous questions:)
Re peak oil, it is not about how much is there. It is about how much can be produced and what kind of oil that is. When individual fields peak in their production, they usually decline by about 6% a year. When you consider that most of the world’s producers are at or near peak, you would need to find and add some 3-6% each year just to stay even. There is no sign of this happening.
As for Saudi Arabia, it has about 2 million bbls a day spare capacity but 3/4 of this is made up of heavy crudes that vrtually no one can use. So at best you are talking about half million bbls a day and it is unclear but some or all of this they may already have tapped into.
Thank you Charles for a most stimulating discussion. Your book was a fascinating read and filled in many gaps in my knowledge about the crisis in the financial markets. Highly recommended.
And thank you Ian for hosting, fine work as always.
[huff! puff!] Sorry to be just getting here, and breezing through at that, partly because one of the six things I’m doing at the moment is finishing Mr. Morris’s book.
Yes, that early 90s event wasn’t really on my radar either. It seems to be an important contribution of Trillion to bring it’s role to everyone’s attention.
Another is certainly to bring the arcane pieces of this enormous booby trap into one narrative that any interested person can follow, sparing them the many happy hours one can spend trying to track down monoline insurers and such, for use on seeing the vital big picture clearly (not to mention for living normal life).
Thanks so much for hosting and encapsulating, Ian. Mssr. Morris, thanks for taking the time to explain all this to us.
Ian
I’m late to the party but I hope you’ll give the thread a last check.
I’m defending a foreclosure in Bridgeport, CT. The purchase mortgage was sub prime about two years old-80/20 for a total of 400,000.00, 400,000. being the purchase price. By 80/20 I mean the first mortgage was 80% of the purchase price, the second mortgage (both to the same lender) was 20% of the purchase price.
The mortgage and note have been assigned, the plaintiff being US National Bank trustee for HEAT 2006-08 (or something like that I don’t have the file in front of me). I suspect HEAT is an acronym and the “T” may be for trust. I’m in the process of attempting disclosure which is being contested. I’m trying to determine if the plaintiff has standing in the sense of representing the entire ownership of the note and mortgage. Now here’s my questions:
1)Does Mr. Morris know anything of the structure of these things? Does he have a copy of a certificate for a CDO and other documents used?
2)Would he be willing to testify as an expert? I don’t know where he is and it would have to be pro bono as I’m not really getting paid.
3)Is it possible that all the tranches are not represented by HEAT and that the plaintiff does not own the entire note and mortgage?
My email is ekunin AT optonline DOT net
If he is interested in helping me through this, have him drop me a line. If I, and others, are able to block foreclosures, it helps the local real estate market by not having vacant boarded up places here and there and it puts the loss where it belongs, not on the taxpayers.
Thanks