Hello?

Hola!

Poor Tony. Pretty soon he might have to actually tell the truth about his agenda.

Nah, never happen.

But we might be able to force the truth out of him nevertheless.

Breaking: George Clooney and Sarah Larson have broken up.

Clooney’s available. Heh,heh.

No one could’ve predicted…

It is me or has the lake been slow to load lately?

Azul Tejano!

No one could’ve predicted

tan cierto.
Nadie podría haber pronosticado

Time to get a new talking point, Tony.

“They’ll have to pry the right to heterosexual, misogynistic, paternalistic, domineering marriage from my cold, dead hands.”

Life in the slow lake
Surely make you lose your mind
Life in the slow lake

John McCain cancels appearances tomorrow, because he has a cold today:

http://dailykos.com/story/2008…..783/525024

Are you saying I’m crazy? Well!

Time to get a new talking point, Tony.

and time to get a new life, leave everyone else to enjoy their lives as they see fit

you know what really pisses me off?

even on the cobert report, this guy gets away with saying “we need to strengthen marriage”

he says that as gay marriage doesn’t do exactly that and as if banning gay marriage will somehow strengthen it

he should be stopped dead in his tracts when he starts with that kind of bullcrap

well if you’re crazy so am I. it seems suggish today.

Here’s the weird part. It’s the only report on google news about it and it comes from the UK:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/us…..ncels.html

” … stopped dead in his tracts …”

Good one!

Time to get new voters

Conservatism cannot fail. Politicians can fail conservatism, and when they do, we just have to get new politicians. Now it seems that the voters of California are failing conservatism. Guess it’s time to get a new set of voters.

Oh, wait, they already have that in the works. They call it voter ID. Of course, for California they may have to find even more aggressive ways than voter ID to weed out voters likely to fail conservatism. Instead of requiring a driver’s license as the ID necessary to vote, they could just require a Republican Party membership card as the needed ID.

Republics may soon learn that their hate agendas don’t work so well in a terrible economy. It’s just too hard to get people to focus on the hating when they are worried about losing homes and jobs.

O/T: EPU’d from downstairs. Do you think there will be a thread about the 800 lb gorilla in the room (a la the Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting this weekend)? Or is the possibility of poo flinging too much?

Colbert hearts Tony Perkins on gay marriage

Tony should first try to strengthen marriage by banning divorce. Hey, maybe he should be asked why he wants to protect gays from divorce by preventing them from marrying.

or have lost their homes and jobs.

Conservatism cannot fail. Politicians can fail conservatism, and when they do, we just have to get new politicians.

they will be called democrats, there is no such thing as a concervative republican, they are all fringe and wing nuts, they beleive in concerving their jobs and their freinds profit and nothing else

I’ll be very interested to hear how this is commie-pinko tinkering with the Will o’ da Peeple when the middle-of-term recall of Gray Davis was Democracy in Action.

Breaking: The 400 children in CPS custody must be returned to their parents in Texas Supreme Court decision. The appeal was denied.

The implications of the State coming in and taking hundreds of children away from their parents based on flimsy evidence, could have had mindboggling consequences…

I’m glad it’s over personally.

Tony Perkins should be introduced to Jeff Gannon. I bet they have a ton in common.

hardly flimsy. guess raping of little girls is okay

LS and wobblybits -

there was some solid reporting on this from Sarah over at Orcinus – have been checking the site since the order to return the children was issued – nothing yet – but keeping an eye out

the whole thing is terribly sad. I don’t want children separated from their parents but more than that, I don’t want ANY child in harms way.

One out of 400. If you lived in a neighborhood and one child/person was raped…or in a Catholic Church..and one child was molested or raped…do you haul in the whole community or congregation?

Yea, that’s the same.

I guess I’m saying where do you draw the line. Is the community or a congregation an “individual”. It could have set a horribly slippery slope precedent…That’s all I’m saying. Obviously, I don’t want any child in harms way either.

Different situation. Historically, these people have forced children to marry. And they get rid of the “extra” boys. How many of these children had babies? And corporal punishment was the norm.

it was not just one. FLDS church has done this in Utah. Ther has been a few documentaries on it as well as escaped female members abd ousted boys (the lost boys- kicked out so that the pool of men remains small)have spoken out about it.

Besides last I checked, the catholic church does not condone molestation or rape or tie it to religious practices and doctrine unlike Jeffers FDL church does via underage marriage

am with ya. as godless dfh’s we are right to be concerned about religious freedom and tearing families asunder – but have read enough (not just Sara or Krakauer)to believe this is a cult that enslaves women and abuses children –

my first words to mr cbl about the initial raid was one of concern that the aurthorities were doing it properly and not just going in there guns ablazin’ as they apparently did – and now there will be more suffering as a result

True, but it was denied because they had no evidence in the individual cases of the 400 children. The danger is when their is rumor or a rumor of a practice, but no evidence…they can round up anybody, anywhere. If there had been evidence, it would not have been denied.

I don’t know where the line is but when we fail to protect children from predators, we have crossed a terrible line

It sounds like the whole tribe had been drinking poison kool-aid. The adults are victim/perpetrators raising their little colony of victims to ultimately perpetrate, and get victim-enthralled and perpetrator-trained by the next monster or the same monster. If you don’t pass it back, you pass it on.

And governmental agencies to act as an alternate humanitarian base camp for the family? Out of the frying pan into the fire for the kids?

Necrophobia rampant in our country. Status quo at all costs. Cling to it and deny injustice. Whether gay rights or cult-church child abuse. Like boiling the frog one degree at a time. Sociopaths and indifferents rule.

Exactly. It is the “way” they went about this that I’m contesting. Had they been able to keep the children in custody, because they had proof that they were molested, etc., fine. But they didn’t, and had the case stood as is, it could affect anyone based on basically nothing.

And that is precisely why social workers in Child Protective Services groups are in one of the most thankless jobs going.

If they remove the children without explicit cause and evidence it’s the “overeach of big brother.”

But if they let a child stay in a home and something happens, it’s “how dare you not pay attention to the obvious warning signs and remove these helpless children.”

I don’t buy that. our justice system is not perfect. We have many instances of where justice was not served.

I agree. But, you have to have “proof”. They couldn’t prove it. That is what I’m saying…I’m not saying that it’s okay to abuse the children. Everyone is talking as if there is all this “proof”…obviously, they couldn’t prove it in court.

guns ablazin’

wtf?

The 3rd District Court of Appeals said in its ruling that the state’s Child Protective Services did not demonstrate that all the children on the ranch faced imminent danger, as necessary for their removal.

All, do you read that.

I agree. I don’t envy what they have to do but I am thankful that they do it. I look at these lil gilrs and see their impending voictim hood and I look at the little boys who willeither be cast out later or become predators themselves. Just heartbreaking.

I remember looking at the press conferences and the sorrowful mothers who talked about how sad they were but they were unable to shed one tear (don’t beleive me, go back and look on youtube). They are brainwashed and victimized repeatedly.

A gun blazes when you pull the trigger.

I believe rhetorically speaking that was.

Maybe Rev. Hagee can pass out 400 paperbags and everyone can vomit out their demons. One cult helping another?

Maybe I’m a little touchy after some other “rhetorical” statements this week.

sorry but my soft spot is for kids, animals and the elderly.

Understood.

But if it is whom I am thinking of, you also have to consider the source and discount it accordingly.

It’s not worth the necessary effort to bring the blood pressure back under control after responding to some folks. Easier and less aggravating to ignore them.

I can’t stand kids, animals, and the elderly.

C’mon, all those girls that were 16 had either been pregnant or were pregnant!

??? snark? i wasn’t implying you don’t. simply apologizing for the passion that comes forth when it comes to those groups

I am all three!

I’m not arguing whether they were abused or not. I’m only saying that you can’t round up hundreds of women and children in a community…take them away from their families…place them in foster homes…without “proof” that they were abused that will stand up in court. They were unable to provide evidence. That is “All” I’m saying. If they were able to do that without “proof”…they could do it to anybody. They should have had clear evidence. That is my point.

Of course it was snark!!

I wonder if the DNA evidence will be make public.

Looks like I got EPU’d on the last thread so I’ll repeat it here because this crap with the homophobes in CA fits right into the grand scheme of things. We can target them as well.

I’ve always paid attention to my instincts and the last few days I think are telling me something. Democracy Now! devoted over 30 minutes to Tariq Ali today and I thought the timing was prescient. And well worth watching.

Things are not going well for the GZG, Scotty is on all the bobblehead shows, his book is out, the media are in a frenzy one way or the other, the WH appears to be in a daze (yeah, I know, what’s new), venues for McCain’s fundraisers are bailing, etc, etc. The hole under their rock is in disarray and they’re turning on their own.

And now Lady Jane’s post re googlebombing. No time like the present to start an all out assault on the Rethugs. The Rethugs have accumulated power by any means they could over the last 30 years. They’ve turned the world into a living nightmare with their quest for wealth and power and inability to govern. It’s time to take it away from them, non-violently, By. Any. Means. Necessary. We have the ability to make life a living hell for the Rethugs and their sycophants this summer and fall. Got a Dem challenging a Rethug in a Senate or House race where you live this year? We can expand the McCain googlebomb to the down ticket races. We can hammer ‘em every day until the election. Be creative, think of ways we can use the toobz to our advantage. We’re burnin’ daylight here, let’s get started.

there was proof but then one must deal with the technicalities of how evidence was collected, if it is admissable, etc. the wedding photos, the accounts of ex-members are all proof but not necessarily admissable to those cases

agreed. but that lil meeting is coming up this weekend and we still might be dealing with primary madness come Monday.

McCain:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.a…..id=3510203

I guess I don’t understand what proof is.

I would love a boycott for a week of MSM. McClellan’s book triggering press indignation and defensiveness. Can’t we shake up corporate backed media and say, “We know what you did… and gossipping about Scott’s ‘disloyalty’ to the Bushies seems obscene when the point of it all is…. an insider gets the emperor has and has had no clothes for so long … and better late than never. Aren’t we tired of being played? And can’t we organize to be felt… in THEIR advertising pocketbooks. how about sweeps week! Sounds like a juicy week (and I have no idea when that is) but would love to show we are madder than hell and are not going to take it anymore.

As I have said, media shines the flashlight on America’s attention, and those batteries inside are corporate owned.

Evidence to justify their actions…they didn’t produce evidence to justify their actions. They took the kids and couldn’t justify it. If that had been upheld, they could take your kids with no evidence to justify it. That is what I’m saying.

Isn’t Scotty going to be on Keith tonight?

I always thought that Scott was getting a terrible deal from the Bush Crime Family. There was something about him that wasn’t 100% odious.

yep

I am admittedly naive in these matters. It sure is a cause celebre for the wingnuts though. They just outraged, no young men, it would appear to be an open and shut case.

They did. But the ruling keyword was ALL. Not that there wasn’t evidence to substantiate abuse just not enough to cover ALL

(bows) Konnichiwa, Wobbs.

Assume the primary madness continues until the convention. That doesn’t stop us from hammering the Rethugs. I see no reason to wait until we actually have a name on the ballot. There will be a Dem name on the ballot, that we know. We should make it as difficult as we can for the Rethugs to gain any traction whatsoever, no matter who the nominee is. We don’t have to wait for the Dem Party and it’s machinations. We are the ones who need to take control of the situation. We probably cannot affect the outcome of Sat’s meeting but we can affect a lot of other things. This is bigger than Obama or Clinton. It’s about all of us.

bom dia to you and I agree 100%

Maybe the Gathering of Eagles could meet up with the Clinotista’s.

Part of the problem with the FLDS raid is that is took so long for anything to be done. Seems they went in with an extreme attitude. They should have been more methodical and done something years ago. Whole communities of children who don’t show up in any way on the social or cultural radar are usually being abused.

Difference with Scotty than other whistleblowers… he took on Bushies AND the media. So they will work together to punish him.

And the (gang) loyalty focus which has become such a talking point… yeah… the Nazis were codependent, too!

ooo, a love fest.

That is my point. They rounded up ALL of them, but couldn’t justify rounding up ALL of them. So, they should have rounded up the one’s that they actually did have evidence on. They can’t get away with rounding up thousands of people, because they have evidence on “some” of them.

First they came for the….

I agree but it is difficult to investigate a ‘closed’ society. You need cooperation and it wasn’t happening except from the folks that have escaped

It matters not a wit what the people’s vote was on Prop 22. It is for the court to determine what the law is, not the will of the people. The California Constitution and its broad Equal Protection clause combined with the fundamental right to marry/form a family trumps the will of the voter. It is at heart simply a separate yet equal argument. The Court’s Decision is a very readable, very clear and concise opinion that will stand and simply extends the same rights to those who had previously been relegated to second class status. Luckily, those who wish to continue to discriminate to continue to do so. No church will be required by law to perform or acknowledge a same-sex marriage. Civil law will require issuance of a maariage license and the State will have to recognize a same-sex marriage.
I, an old married hag, couldn’t be happier. I hope Sue and Sally,k invite Dave and I to their wedding.

Or a worm rassle!

Fine that is your point but I still disagree with the court. I think more time should have been allowed to investigate. But what is one more female victim?

Commie activist judges.

konnichiwa, southerndragon – earlier today i linked to today’s DN! interview with tariq ali also.

and here’s is his guardian article mentioned in the interview.

i have never heard events of 1968 described in that way. very interesting and would love to hear what others have to say who were politically aware then (i was only 8 and probably didn’t even know there was a war on).

i agree and they have signaled already in their decision that any supposed amendment to the constitution witgh regards to this would be unconstitutional

Ya go me goin in circles
ya round and round and round

I have a real problem with the romantic notion of marriage. It is a contract between two people and the state. Love is one thing. Marriage is another.

it happens

I was aware. Between Korea and Nam at Ft Lewis, dropped acid for the first time and, when we went to the laundry room to hang out the news came on the radio that Bobby was killed. Went to Nam 2 weeks after the convention and it went down hill from there.

when children are removed from their homes, that is also traumatic – even abusive if not justified.

not saying it wasn’t in this case. but you seem to be arguing that removal is a neutral event in a child’s life. is it right to remove without evidence and then investigate to look for the evidence?

No, but to give them more time. How do you investigate a closed society?

I wasn’t arguing that at all. i never said it was neutral. If you go back above, I said it is terrible to remove a child from their parents

if you give the interview with ali a listen, i’d be interested in your take on what he has to say (there is more in the guardian article also). is what ali describes consistent with your memories of that year? does it ring true for you?

There was evidence just according to the ruling not enough to have removed ALL the children.

You can’t “target” and “demonize” a “religious” group and accuse them of “practices”…remove their children…divide up families perhaps forever….without evidence of the abuse they are being accused of.

That is what happened in Germany.

SD if you are still around, weebits was having some ‘movement’ issues. But after a lil mineral oil in her formula and some nice warm tummy massages, things are ‘flowing’ normally.

They wern’t being ‘targeted’ for religious persecution. It was child abuse.

But whatever. we don’t agree and i’m moving on.

No hard feelings Wobbly…it is just a discussion about the law.

No hard feelings here but it was never about religious persecution, it was about children being abused. The court made their decision and all I can do is send love, peace and light to these children.

(bows) Konnichiwa, selise

What did your guts tell you after you watched it? Watch it again, regardless. He’s a great speaker and there are a few clips of his talks on da toobz.

Whenever I send a letter to my Congressman he has one of those stupid little blocks where you have to copy the characters to prove you are really a person. He has a message reading: “Some organizations use automated programs to block constituent correspondence sent to me via email. To prevent this practice, please type the characters you see below in the box provided.”

Lately all I have been seeing is a block reading “Image”. I, of course, immediately verified that I had images enabled & they were. I then investigated the image properties & they were 0 x 0 pixels, 0 bits per pixel, Image Type Unknown, File Size 0 Bytes.

I’ve been getting this for several days whenever In try to participate in a mailing campaign. I can, however, send him an extemporaneous letter. I believe he is blocking a mass mailings. Is that appropriate or even legal for a Congressman? Would a couple of you firedogs in TX CD21 please check this phenomenon out & see if it happens to you and let me know? Thanx in advance!

I would call the vet tomorrow and talk it over. May be nothing but better safe than sorry.

my emotional response was … well, thrilling, hopeful (and a bit worried that that we are going off the rails by channelling all energy for social change into electoral politics), curious…

but i’m not george bush. i don’t want to listen to my gut without doing some reality checking. *g*

I was in Nam when all that occurred and didn’t pay much attention at the time. Ali was involved in a lot of the events in Europe that year and was already a known figure in the New Left. From my perspective his take on all this is spot on.

i have read (and listened) to a bit of his work previously. i don’t know enough about that time (especially events outside the usa) to judge on my own and he tells me things i want to hear… which is always a warning to check it out.

will give it another listen, though. hope others will give it a listen also. i was especially curious about the events he described in france.

Electoral politics is what we have to make the social changes we want. We’re different from Europe in that the unions here are more in the pockets of the corporations. A general strike in any state, much less the whole country, is impossible. Union busting over the last 100 years was to prevent just that sort of thing. It’s 40 years later and we have to use the tools we have to effect change. Politicians and corporations have used that time to ensure that there is no concerted effort to change the status quo. Time for that to change.

He wasn’t telling you what you wanted to hear, he’s telling you what the left was trying to do during that time. And is still trying to do. He’s a believer in every word he says and has lived it. I’ll have to do some searching and come up with some stuff for you to read.

Dave Neiwert a couple of flights up talking about some Republican Appeasers and deniers.

i don’t have a problem searching, was just wondering what folks here thought also.

… the thing is, as far as i know (and correct me if i’m wrong) every major advance in social and/or economic justice here has been accompanied by a strong social movement. has it ever been done by electoral politics alone?

not trying to suggest the european model. just that we don’t forget there is more to political activism than electoral politics.

First you have to get people into government who are willing to listen to the people calling for social change. The Rethugs spent 30 years getting people elected to office who would listen to the corporations only. They have never been interested in social change except as a control issue, e.g., gay marriage, abortion, etc. They’ve been very effective at it. Now we have to elect people who are committed to the common good. The uprisings in France in 68-69 were challenging the status quo, the wealth and power crowd. They don’t have the type of government we do so it’s easier, theoretically, to force the government to change.

First you have to get people into government who are willing to listen to the people calling for social change

is that really true? has that ever happened? – where social change occurred because of electoral changes first and social movements second?

or has it always been the other way around? or at least concurrent electoral/social movement actions?

what really has been the history of major social change?

The best example is the New Deal. The New Deal didn’t come about because FDR willed it into being. Once he had been convinced that the agenda involved was a good idea he told the supporters to make Congress agree to make it happen. Congress, through people telling them that the programs were good for all, realized that and enacted the legislation that became the New Deal. The economic picture at the time helped a great deal. We don’t have that picture now but change will come if we force Congress to enact change. The biggest problem is that Americans don’t participate. If they did the Rethugs would never have gotten as far as they have. Americans are lazy. If something doesn’t affect them personally, they don’t care. They’re too busy enjoying their big screen TVs, waverunners, and all the other toys foisted upon them to keep them fat, dumb and happy. We have to take chances. We have to get up off our asses and make Congress do something. Before we can do that, however, we have to elect people who are willing to listen. Congress in 1934 was willing to listen. Congress in 2006-8 is not. If we make good inroads this year it betters the chances we have in successive elections to make more change. 2008 is not going to be a magic pill. It may take 10-15 years, or more, to really get things on the right track. We have to be willing to engage in that struggle. We have to take the attitude, “It’s not about me and my comfortable life, it’s about all of us, specifically those who have nothing.”

Perkins is a raving lunatic…If it didn’t come from Dobson in Co. Springs then he can’t say it…these people will say anything (truth or NOT)to get their KKK-esk, bent philosophy in the public sphere.. It’s back to the future in their minds..

Time to lock them away…for GOOD!

The California electorate voted on Prop22 — changing the State Family Code so that marriage was between a man and a a woman — in March 2000, during a primary election. The Democratic primary was settled; Al Gore was our nominee, so Democratic voters (more likely to favor marriage equality and civil rights) did not turn out.

The Republican primary was almost over, but not quite, so there was a reason for the haters to turn out to vote for W to ensure California put him over the top – which they did.

The vote was 61% in favor of Prop22 — but in no way was it a representative California electorate. So, it was not only eight long years ago, it was also not a fair election, since fair-minded folks didn’t have a reason to go to the polls.

Just another argument to posit when the haters spout their Tony Perkins talking points.