Blue America candidate Martin Heinrich is over at Crooks & Liars chatting. Stop by and say "hi" -- jh
Following up on my post from yesterday on John McCain's bid for Hillary Clinton's female voters, I see my good friend Arianna Huffington has finally joined the ranks of pro-choice bloggers and writes about a promising poll by Planned Parenthood. The poll concludes that many of McCain's supporters in swing states are pro-choice, and don't realize what a reactionary barbarian he is when it comes to a woman's right to control her own body.
People in our comments thread were also quick to note that no woman who really cares about choice could vote for a President who might put another Alito on the bench. Well, people such as myself who are die-hard pro-choice voters might wish that were true, but there really isn't any statistical proof to back up the conclusion that John McCain's Neanderthal position on choice is going to hurt him significantly in November.
A recent nation wide Gallup poll indicates that only 13% of those polled say that a candidate "must share your views" with regard to abortion; 49% said it was "just one of many important factors," while 37% said it was "not a major issue" and 2% had "no opinion."
Here's Newsweek:
McCain aides say his hard line on abortion isn't necessarily a disadvantage among many women. Though about 60 percent agree in general with Roe, that doesn't mean they vote based on a candidate's position on abortion. The McCain camp believes Hillary backers—working-class white women and independents, in particular—could migrate to McCain rather than to Obama. A Planned Parenthood poll of women voters in 16 battleground states earlier this year showed 49 percent of McCain's supporters called themselves pro-choice and said they support Roe.
What do women care about? Well, that is the eternal question, isn't it. From a May 14 Quinnipiac poll:
Which of the following will be the single most important issue in your vote in the election for President this year?
Issue Women Terrorism 5% War in Iraq 22% The economy 46% Illegal immigration 6% Health care 14% Something else (Vol) 4% DK/NA 2%
"A woman's right to choose" doesn't even chart.
McCain's big vulnerability among women is the economy. The Quinipiac poll also states that 77% of women disapprove of Bush's handling of the economy, and Progressive Media demonstrates that in 2008 John McCain voted with Bush 100% of the time. In 2007, he voted with him 95% of the time. If Obama can articulate a meaningful vision of how he'll handle the economy, it's going to be a lot more persuasive to female voters at this point in time.
Choice is -- or should be -- a core Democratic value. It's critical for party leaders to be vocal in their support of it, because the people who really care about it really care about it and they're the activists who get stuff done. And good on Arianna for getting the message out about McCain, because the Planned Parenthood poll indicates that when people are aware of what a pig he is on choice, it starts to chip away at their willingness to support him. But for those looking to a position on choice to keep women in the Democratic tent, there just isn't a compelling argument that this issue alone will prevent women from defecting to McCain.
All this is by way of reinforcing my central thesis, which I still stick by -- Hillary Clinton's exit from the stage needs to be carefully managed, and a bum's rush may have undesirable consequences. Those looking to see her burned at the stake may be firmly convinced of their righteousness, but it's questionable whether this is in the best interest of a November victory for Obama.
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Ugh.
How do other people “manage” her exit?
Agreed, Jane.
Managed by whom?
Top people.
Well, for one thing, I think the idea that any candidate “must” drop out of the primary is not helpful. I wanted John Edwards in the race, even though it was apparent that he did not have the money or the exposure to pick up the necessary momentum. The race was better in tone when he was part of it. I think dropping out is a personal, or perhaps a financial decision that a candidate may make, but this is a Primary. There is no nominee, yet. And if I lived in one of the states that has held its primary in the last month or so, I’d be livid to have no choice in the matter.
So it’s her decision, doesn’t seem to me that can be “managed”. The subtext here is to stop doggin her, right?
McCain’s big vulnerability among women is the fact that he called his own wife a c*** in public.
Jane, you quote the Gallup poll as saying that only 13% of those polled say that a candidate “must share your views” with regard to abortion; 49% said it was “just one of many important factors,” while 37% said it was “not a major issue” and 2% had “no opinion.”
What I wonder: is the issue more important to pro-choice people or anti-abortion people? Any indication in the poll?
Bingo. Problem is, only the internet people know about it…
Well sure, it’s her decision to leave the race. We don’t control Clinton. We only control ourselves (or not). What can we do to manage how the primary progresses into the convention? Can we stop biting each other’s ankles, and focus on the bigger picture? Hard to do, I know, but I think we each need to try.
Well, I’m open to the idea that calling her a crazy screeching bitch until she drops out is anything but a self-defeating exercise in complete narcissism, I guess you could take it that way too.
I wonder if many of us take the ability to choose for granted at this point; making it a bigger issue for the anti abortion crowd who want to change things.
Maybe if she didn’t say the kind of shit she repeated Friday it would be a little easier.
Maybe American women are so used to having Abortion as a right they can’t imagine that it could ever be taken away? McCain is going to avoid this issue then and cruise on stealth except unless he is behind closed doors speaking to the prescreened for loyalty.
I think we can get more on the economy issue but still I would like to nail him with that issue.
Jane, I agree this has to be handled carefully and leave her with some dignity. The problem is that only she can make a graceful exit and up to this point she has seemed to get seriously off track and is lashing out in all directions. I don’t know what any of us can do to aid this disaster.
How. When and Where? Or maybe Obama could just ignore her and pick a VP?
And then there is her windbag husband with his crap.
I support Hillary’s right to choose… the time and place of her exit.
Why did terrorism, which garnered 5%, get placed at the top of the list? Makes me wonder about the pollster.
Terribly saddening to see choice doesn’t even make the list. As a feminist male with no mistakes in my history and a vasectomy, it certainly makes my list.. It was one of my own best hopes for a fair share of the dem electorate “getting” the dire circumstance/status of the court..
It’s possible that younger women assume choice as a right. Some of us older ones do not.
And then there is the question of access to and affordability of abortion services - which is lack of choice by another means.
I think he pretty much is ignoring her. He was pretty low-keyed about her assassination tango.
Does seem to be his current strategy.
So much for managing it.
My guess is that the poll above would be very different if broken down into age ranges. Those who were around before Roe and knew what it was like are far less likely to want to compromise on this issue. That means that the Hillary demo, if they really knew about McSame’s real position on choice couldn’t possibly vote for him.
The younger generation does take it for granted, but they are more likely to be Obama supporters anyway.
That would be my guess.
I listen to the young women of today - in their 20s and 30s and they just accept that abortion will always be available. It’s scary to think that their lack of urgency about the issue could cause the loss of the right.
I felt the same way about Hilary I thought the only way she could get votes was to go Left and this would drag the debate further Left but aside from the promise to change NAFTA nothing else has happened.
I was wrong about her I never thought she would go GOP negative. So far the morning People are being nice and not saying this is my fault.
That’s why I keep preaching on it. The older moms who bring their daughters who are in their 20’s and 30’s thank me profusely. They get it.
I think Obama is baiting McCain…he made a comment about not necessarily meeting directly with Ahmadinijad, because he’s not the actual leader in Iran…last week McCain argued that Ahamdinijad is the leader of Iraq…McCain will probably respond that Obama is ignorant and that Ahmadinijad is the leader of Iran, and Obama will say gotcha…heh, heh….
Sorry, that should read Iran…
He’s only just begun.
I think the public affirmation of Obama’s clean Nomination is just as important as Hillary’s exit. I think it can be aided — for instance the degree to which we discuss poor assumptions and campaign design as factoring into her loss, perhaps that takes some of the sting out of it, but once Obama hits the magic number we only undercut what has been achieved by too much focus on Hillary’s feelings.
Obama is so well organized, I assume he has lots of good things to say about Hillary and the issues that made her appealing. He has to make them his own. But I actually think that the fact that she made him fight for the nomination was a gift — and he should thank her for it.
Good points about age variables.. Makes a lot of sense to me.. especially about younger women (and men) taking it for granted.
Thanks
One think about the right to choose that should be broadened, is that it is not just about abortion. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, it means pro-choice.
We older ones certainly do get it. It has been my issue for as long as I can remember. The idea that a woman does not have the right to decide about her own body is a privacy issue for me and I get really agitated about it. No privacy and we are little better than slaves.
Yeah, Jane, what if you really think she is a crazy screeching neo-nazi castrating bitch? Shouldn’t you say so, for the good of the party? Point it out to other people, who perhaps aren’t seeing things the way they should?
I know about that drove a friend from Carpenterville once to that bad area of Chicago between Forest Park and Chicago she swore it was the closest place thankfully she was fine though.
Precisely. And it really is about WHO makes the choice. Who decides is the bottom line of the issue, not what the ultimate decision is.
Yea, and we old veterans thought we learned from our mistakes. . .
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/.....refer=home
UGH
Bullseye.
Welcome to Bushworld! Where you don’t belong to yourself!
I think the way Edwards handled things, when he endorsed Obama, was classy as hell. Way to go. Not trashing anyone, not disparaging anyone, but trying to highlight what was good, what was important, what was needed.
My X drove with her friend from Urbana to NYC in the early 70’s.
It boggles the mind that anyone thinks the Clintons are a value add under any plausible set of circumstances. True the Clintons have “support” based on their dumb it down gender baiting, race baiting, age baiting I said it but what I said was misinterpreted or misreported mo and their attacks and manipulation of the MSM.
The Clintons under any reasonable standard have run a disorganized and dispuptive and negative campaign. The bottom line is that the Clintons have really nothing to say on behalf of the Democratic Party.
Is there anything in her behavior that leads you to the conclusion that she has one iota of class?
Because she was self destructing all on her own a few more comments like that and Hilary will lose her Senate seat in New York. But we need to get her out soon a few more comments like that and Rush will have her guest hosting his show!
It’s all about the supreme court baby, nothing either one of them does or says changes that in the mind of many. They’d even vote for her.
Agree, but I would like to see other examples used…not just abortion, because otherwise it is always about “baby killers”.. People don’t understand that it impacts everything.
Because many of those same folks you are pointing it out to may agree with her in a lot of respects.
Winning them (and her) with kindness may go a lot further toward having Clinton supporters voting for Obama in November.
She has managed to receive approximately 45-47% of the vote in the primaries. There ARE a lot of folks who do believe in her views.
We do not win elections by throwing them out to make a purity point.
What views are that?
So why would it be important someone convince others that Hillary is a crazy, screeching, castrating bitch? Will that change the electoral outcome?
If I were an American, I would be supporting Obama. But I do not think name-calling is helpful. And why this language that so explicitly insults her as a woman?
I agree - that was very skillfully handled.
Actually polling data indicates younger voters in battleground states are very concerned about abortion, and are much more likely to insist that their candidate agree with their views on the subject than the national average:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....02646.html
No man I know of here would have ever framed it that way. I’d never call her a bitch.
Illinois to New York damm I complained about a hour drive!
Sorry Raven, I couldn’t resist fooling with you a bit. As for Clinton, I am not her defender, but I am quite put off by the tenor of this primary - specifically the nastiness that has come, not from either campaign so much, as from campaign supporters. There’s your UGH. From the point of view of someone who does not have a horse in this race, there has been a nastiness barrier that I cannot wade through. Don’t want to. Don’t like the nasty racism, don’t like the nasty sexism. And no, people, I’m not saying that anyone’s choice is based on race or sex. I’m just saying there has been a lot of both, and it sucks.
As for Clinton? She’s smart as hell, and tough. Those are good qualities.
Yea, that was quite an ordeal.
I am so glad to hear that. Have not seen polls on the question - just got my impressions from listening to people talk. All my daughters (in their 40s) know all about the issue - jeebus, they’ve heard it enough.
I’m sorry but I am always suspicious of polling data and esp. the way the questions are asked. So I went to the QU poll site linked above and here is the question:
Which of the following will be the single most important issue in your vote in the election for President this year? (Read options)
Does this mean that only the things listed above were read as options? That the person polled had to come up with “abortion” as a choice to vote for on the poll? Most people would probably think they were being asked to rate only those itemized in the question itself. If the question read did list abortion as an issue then that would be a different picture altogether.
I couldn’t say as I’m not really a supporter of either of the remaining candidates but will vote for the Dem nominee in November.
But she has obviously appealed in some ways to a significant portion of the voters in the Democratic Party primaries and caucuses around the country. I may not recognize WHY she has been able to appeal to them but I damn sure better recognize that she HAS appealled to them and react accordingly.
That is, don’t dismiss them all as shmucks, idiots, no-brainers, or whatever. You can do that but those folks will still have the vote in November.
I’d like to have an actual Dem victory in November not another purity contest where we lose but retain our whatever. (It damn sure ain’t principles)
Hm. looks like I may have misread your previous comment.
I agree with you about privacy, that’s Roe v. Wade.
FWIW, O’Connor used the “undue burden” test in Casey and Lee v. Weisman. IANAL, but Jan Crawford Greenburg argues in her SUPREME CONFLICT that Casey puts choice on more solid legal footing than it was before on “Roe.”
What is smart about what she is doing? And, for that matter, what is so tough about her? Staying around and making up bullshit about the numbers is tough? I think it’s tough to stand up and let go if you really believe in this “party” bullshit.
Thanks dakine and Fern, I was actually going for snark there. Failed, I see. I agree completely with both your points.
1,854 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Let me see if I’ve got this right, I hafta stop tellin’ the truth about “she who should be forever nameless” because some of her supporters who are only supporting her because she is female will vote for Senator McCrazy if she tells ‘em to??!! What the fuck??!!!
Now let’s be really clear here…there is a core of supporters for Mrs. Bill who don’t care enough about abortion rights, the war in Iraq, the condition of the economy, the Bill of Rights, women’s rights and climate change to vote for the Democratic nominee for President? And that core of supporters will vote for the outright fascist candidate if the junior Senator from New York tells ‘em too??!! Does this mean that if the Democratic Party and the Democratic base of the party don’t give her what she wants, she will effectively endorse Crazy John McCain? Can we figure this out tagether here, is a substantial portion of the “women’s vote” bein’ used by a female candidate to extort some kind of concessions to right wing powers to marginalize the grass roots progressive base of the Democratic Party?
Come on Sister Hamsher, it’s your moment to stand up…are you tellin’ the good folks at FDL that they hafta watch a right wing corporate shill use a mindless block of female voters to intimidate the Democratic Party back into the 19th century?
I can’t believe I’m hearin’ this…turn on the house lights, I wanna meet the scriptwriter!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE FIGHT HAS JUST COME INTO YOUR LIVINGROOM!!
Ok, this sexist pig has to go fix dinner for his bride. CU
excellent point.
unless we’re supposed to pretend that’s not how we see it? hoping someone has a better suggestion.
Snark is a tricksy thing, indeed.
How do you deal with people who live in a constant state of denial?
And are always finding things that aren’t there?
Jesus H. Christ on a God damned crutch…that’s what I get for takin a nap in the afternoon!!
Listening to Clinton in debate, I have the impression of someone who knows her shit, who can speak articulately, with depth, on a variety of topics. And she’s a tough nut to stay in this race despite the freaking beating she has received from her own party.
Who is Joan Walsh from Salon? I saw her on Hardball and couldn’t believe my ears…will Hillary not take responsibility for anything she says?
I hate it when a little kid hits someone and the other person calls them out, and then that same little kid acts victimized. really really immature.
I’m also appalled at the analogy that people are claiming that an anti war candidate cannot win during wartime. They used Nixon as their example, but excuse me I think the Dems were in power during the war and that is why they lost to Nixon. I think the same will hold for Repubs during this war of Bush’s choice. The party launching the war will pay.
Why oh why can’t I get paid thousands of dollars for my opinion, Chris Matthews?
Amy Goodman interviewed Utah Phillips in Jan 2004 and played it today. He has much to say, including some reflections that are just as true today as they were then. He also has an interesting perspective about men, women and feminism that I think are well suited to this and any other discussion involving human behaviour. And I think anyone who considers themselves a feminist will be pleasantly not surprised at the wisdom of his words.
Utah Phillips on Democracy Now!
50 minutes and worth their weight in gold imo.
which is why I don’t believe it when a professional speaker says she “misspoke” there’s a pattern!….
WELL! WILL YOU CHECK IT OUT??? CNN is highlighting McCain’s lobbyist ties. Whatever could be up with that??? They’re arguing about it, but Cafferty has it right. It’s re the MoveOn ad highlighting Charlie Black. Could it be that MSM is going to like, get , ACCURATE????
note to self: must calm down fantasy hopes.
You have to kiss a lot of ugly frogs to get your own show :)
Joan Walsh has been stumping for “hil” since the beginning, but she does it while stating she’s “neutral”. I’m so DONE with her. I used to like her. But her support for Clinton has been dishonest and, imho, Liebermanesque, in that what she says and what she’s doing are 2 polar opposite things. I dumped her as a result of this primary season, tho i still go to Salon for Glenn’s stuff. Walsh and Ferarro are in the trash bin of women I used to deeply respect, PRE HILLARY!
odd how Clinton’s seem to be able to so easily bring out the worst in folks, huh?
amen.
and so should ending the war, and so should our right to privacy, and so should habeas corpus, and so should preventing torture, and so should universal health care, and so should an economy that isn’t designed to exploit, and so should a foreign policy based on something other than imperialism and so should the ideals of equality and self governance and …..
the problem isn’t our values, it’s how easily we compromise them.
Personally .. Bill is going to do whatever he is going to do .. Hillary can stay in as long as she wants .. I just want T-Mac and Lanny Davis off the TV
I gotcher mis-spoke right here, and it’s tearing us apart on the toobz.
So. How is this different from the Obama supporters who have gone on record for months now saying that if Clinton got the nomination they would stay home?
How shall we speak to those, considerable numbers of people, who support her and do not see her as a facist bitch? Shall we kick them to the curb? Ridicule them for their stupidity?
Careful now. Because things change. It could easily be your candidate who next “misspeaks” or creates some gaffe or suffers some public embarrasment. If condemning people who don’t agree with you is the way to go, you may find yourself on the pointy end of the stick next.
Our values are what we SAY - often not what we DO.
Ok we seem to agree that baring something happening to Obama then Hilary should leave the race soon.
When? the longer we wait before the convention the more time we give Hilary to organize/bribe Florida and Michigan’s contested delegations she might try and start a fight at the convention and claim Obama has to pick her as VP, Supreme Court whatever. I’m thinking after Puerto Rico votes, but I’m open to ideas.
How do we force her out Howard Dean seems to be joining the Spineless Ones now if he won’t we will but we do seem to lack tack sometimes.
I’m glad it is a high priority for some young women.
While we are speculating about where and how the Pro-Choice issue falls with young women, I agree that probably a lot of younger voters do take that right for granted. But, I’m also wondering about two things.
One, there are a lot of really smart, spunky young women out there are enjoying an opportunity for self-power that women in other generations did not easy access to. I’m basing this on conversations with my 25-year old daughter who moved to DC and her peers. They take responsabilty for themselves - protection — and don’t look to the guys to necessarily take care of them.
Two, the Not So Smart young women, like the unmarried girl who lives next to me with her parents, who is pregnant for the second time, apparently wants to keep having babies. He exboyfriend’s parents are raising her first child. I’m telling you, she is not concerned about Right of Choice issues. Thank God(dess), she probably doesn’t vote. I bet this month’s mortgage on it.
well done.
Very well said, Selise.
To many dems (for my anti authoritarian tastes) want and need direction from the top down. Supporters are not going to give up fighting when they hear their favorite candidate continue the battle cry.
I don’t think this should fully excuse a lot of destructive conversation between individuals (myself included).
We all need to do much better.. and so do the folks at the top.
ding.
Not having choice, could also encompass an eventual law saying you may only have one child, because the State says so. It goes both ways. It’s not just about abortion.
Well said. There are no one-trick ponies here.
1,854 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen CarolynU:
“Listening to M*Clinton in debate, I get the impression of someone who knows her shit can speak articulately, in depth on a number of topic…”
…and will encourage people to vote for some one who hasn’t any of those intellectual tools and doesn’t believe in anything that the Democratic Party stands for! Wow, how can anyone argue that “she who should forever remain nameless” is a Democrat and should have ANY influence in the future of our country?
Tell me again now who are the sexists and whose politics include a vision of humanity that includes everyone?
KEEP THE FAITH AND WAKE UP BEFORE THEY GET YOUR CHILDREN!!
Or, if we want to push the Margaret Atwood direction, that YOU must have children and that other people cannot.
There are also movements afoot to outlaw birth control - all of it. Can you just see that?!
Your math skills obviously exceed mine, Norske. From where I sit, nearly 50% of the Democratic voters in the country have expressed a preference for Hillary Clinton. How exactly do we make it over that 270 hump and tell them to go fuck themselves at the same time?
Enquiring minds, etc. etc.
well said. that’s a much better and truer way to see it. thanks.
I have never supported Clinton, and I despise the campaign she has run. Having said that, she has a lot of support among the kind of Dems who show up to GOTV, especially women my (middle)age. It would help if they were psyched come fall. I do not think she should or will be the Veep pick. But Obama needs to do something dramatic to bring the party together.
I liked his riff on Team of Rivals. He could publicly say that Clinton would be his first nomination to the Supreme Court if he is elected. It would give her a big plum if she wants it, she would never have to campaign again, and she could make life miserable for the Roberts/Scalia/Alito/Thomas block.
She is a smart, wonky, hardworking lawyer. She has what Sandra O’Connor had, which is practical life experience in politics. All the current justices came from appeals courts. The prospect of her appointment would remind people how important choice is as an issue in this campaign, and perhaps it would satisfy her troops. She might never be Chief Justice, but she could have a big impact on the law.
It seems to me that Rachel Madow is right, that Hillary Clinton will find a way to take her candidacy all the way to the convention and that there will be no reconciliation. From the arguments that her supporters have made, they would not vote for Obama, whether Hillary Clinton endorsed him or not. I have not been able to understand their dislike for Obama and do not wish to ascribe it to the lowest of reasons, but it is definitely there. I am not optimistic about the future of the Democratic Party or putting together again the “special interest groups” which have comprised it over the past few decades. So, at this point, it seems to me that sufficient pro-choice women will stay home in November to give the election to McCain.
I agree Hillary is tough - but her presidential campaign to date smacks more of obsessive entitlement then anything resembling smart.
My burning question is she inadvertently screwing herself out of an Obama SCOTUS appointment cause that would really be the stupid IMHO.
I have to respectfully disagree with you.
People here and elsewhere on the toobz are been torn apart for their own reasons.
There are plenty of issues to focus on. There are ways of focusing your disappointment on those who have willfully robbed this country of our former respect throughout the world.
Just. Yikes.
Have to disagree. If your positions on womens’ issues
are the same as the Dem party I don’t think you could stand to not vote. They may hold their noses but I believe they will vote for Obama. IMO
My question to those people is, “Why are there any children in foster care and not in adoptive homes? Why is there one child in foster care?” These people have no problem screeching for laws that control reproductive rights, and all other facets of life, but care not a whit for the most vulnerable among us. All full of “family values” bullshit while children spend years without a permanent home. These people don’t give a damn about children. They just want everybody to dance to their obscene tune. And pick your pocket at the same time.
Norske, I don’t buy it. I heard or read Clinton make overtures of reconciation - we will come together, our supporters will come together - fairly recently. In the last month or so. When did she encourage her supporters to vote for McCain?
And crap, here I am defending Clinton again, and I am not a Clinton supporter. But I am tired as hell of her being portrayed as destroyer of the party. She’s just a freaking candidate. Vote for her, or not. The rest will work itself out.
Those looking to see her burned at the stake may be firmly convinced of their righteousness, but it’s questionable whether this is in the best interest of a November victory for Obama.
In other words, doing dumb things that dumb people recommend is probably dumb.
I just hope people can remember that, since it’s probably hard sometimes. When an Obama supporter or a Clinton supporter says something stupid or annoying or offensive, it’s not about who they’re supporting, it’s about them being Really Stupid People. Stupid people are found everywhere. Like weeds, only not useful.
This sounds like the advice you give family members about how to deal with your crazy uncle Larry at the family reunion.