Comments on: “The Other PTSD” http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 05:33:32 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: FrankProbst http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464523 FrankProbst Tue, 27 May 2008 16:30:16 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464523 <blockquote><p>Yep — I think that’s a good read, actually. And I hope they follow-up with the adults who gave false statements — and would expect them to do so, although proving those is also going to be a difficult row to hoe with a group as tight-lipped as these folks have proven to be.</p></blockquote> <p>I would imagine that they started video-taping people early on, but I don’t know what the laws are on false statements to local and state officials here. I would also imagine that, once CPS has your kids, you have to be able to prove that their YOUR kids in order to get them back, and that’s going to be the next chapter in the drama.</p>

Yep — I think that’s a good read, actually. And I hope they follow-up with the adults who gave false statements — and would expect them to do so, although proving those is also going to be a difficult row to hoe with a group as tight-lipped as these folks have proven to be.

I would imagine that they started video-taping people early on, but I don’t know what the laws are on false statements to local and state officials here. I would also imagine that, once CPS has your kids, you have to be able to prove that their YOUR kids in order to get them back, and that’s going to be the next chapter in the drama.

]]> By: demi http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464502 demi Tue, 27 May 2008 16:20:07 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464502 <p>I didn’t mean to derail your topic, really. But I did see the common theme of authoritarian abuse of women in the two situations.<br /> My thoughts? Ach, my head hurts. There are just so many horrible issues to worry about, aren’t there.<br /> As you said, it’s going to be very difficult to sort out. It’s probably too late in my life to go back to school to get a degree in physcology, do the years of internship and work my way into Child Protection Service for me to help that situation. The best thing I can think of is for people to educate the public. Maybe a movie. Jodie Foster as an investigator who goes undercover into one of these [cults] to break the situation open. When my mind/heart gets overburdened, my imagination takes over.</p> I didn’t mean to derail your topic, really. But I did see the common theme of authoritarian abuse of women in the two situations.
My thoughts? Ach, my head hurts. There are just so many horrible issues to worry about, aren’t there.
As you said, it’s going to be very difficult to sort out. It’s probably too late in my life to go back to school to get a degree in physcology, do the years of internship and work my way into Child Protection Service for me to help that situation. The best thing I can think of is for people to educate the public. Maybe a movie. Jodie Foster as an investigator who goes undercover into one of these [cults] to break the situation open. When my mind/heart gets overburdened, my imagination takes over.

]]> By: Christy Hardin Smith http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464488 Christy Hardin Smith Tue, 27 May 2008 16:12:38 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464488 <p>Yep — I think that’s a good read, actually. And I hope they follow-up with the adults who gave false statements — and would expect them to do so, although proving those is also going to be a difficult row to hoe with a group as tight-lipped as these folks have proven to be.</p> Yep — I think that’s a good read, actually. And I hope they follow-up with the adults who gave false statements — and would expect them to do so, although proving those is also going to be a difficult row to hoe with a group as tight-lipped as these folks have proven to be.

]]> By: FrankProbst http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464486 FrankProbst Tue, 27 May 2008 16:09:52 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464486 <blockquote><p>Which is to say, without a particularized showing for each, individual family, the wholesale removal went against the legal justification. It’s an odd situation, and one which — as I said — is going to be years in the unraveling, I’m sure. I cannot imagine having to be one of the attorneys on any side of this case, because it’s going to be a mess for quite some time.</p></blockquote> <p>I tend to be a frequent critic is Child Protective Services, but in this case I think they did exactly the right thing. They aren’t saying much in their public statements, so you have to do a little reading between the lines. They got a phone call (now believed to be fake) from someone claiming to be an underaged minor in the compound who was being beaten and raped. The investigated, and discovered a number of underaged girls who appeared to be mothers, pregnant, or married to older men, raising the possibility of widespread sexual abuse in the compound. Here’s the “reading between the lines” part: It appears that many people in the compound lied to investigators about their names, ages, and relationships to one another. They interpreted this (correctly, in my mind) as a widespread conspiracy to protect the abuses in their midst, and responded by removing all of the children from the compound. It was a drastic move, but it’s also pretty drastic for a group of parents to lie to investigators in order to shield the identities of child abusers.</p>

Which is to say, without a particularized showing for each, individual family, the wholesale removal went against the legal justification. It’s an odd situation, and one which — as I said — is going to be years in the unraveling, I’m sure. I cannot imagine having to be one of the attorneys on any side of this case, because it’s going to be a mess for quite some time.

I tend to be a frequent critic is Child Protective Services, but in this case I think they did exactly the right thing. They aren’t saying much in their public statements, so you have to do a little reading between the lines. They got a phone call (now believed to be fake) from someone claiming to be an underaged minor in the compound who was being beaten and raped. The investigated, and discovered a number of underaged girls who appeared to be mothers, pregnant, or married to older men, raising the possibility of widespread sexual abuse in the compound. Here’s the “reading between the lines” part: It appears that many people in the compound lied to investigators about their names, ages, and relationships to one another. They interpreted this (correctly, in my mind) as a widespread conspiracy to protect the abuses in their midst, and responded by removing all of the children from the compound. It was a drastic move, but it’s also pretty drastic for a group of parents to lie to investigators in order to shield the identities of child abusers.

]]> By: Christy Hardin Smith http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464484 Christy Hardin Smith Tue, 27 May 2008 16:07:07 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464484 <p>Even in single-family cases, it can take a long, long time to sort out this sort of mess — because, quite honestly, young children aren’t exactly equipped verbally or emotionally to talk about sexual abuse in an open and factually explicit way. And where they are, it can be unnerving, to say the least, and a logistical and investigative nightmare on a number of levels. And that’s just for sexual abuse cases. The regular physical abuse and/or neglect cases are heartbreaking enough — and to really begin to unravel anything you first have to gain some measure of trust with the kids you are trying to help and that can take quite a bit of time.</p> <p>In this case, because of the way things were handled from the start, I’d say it will take a longer time frame for any social agency personnel to establish any real relationship with kids or adults in an already secretive community that is defensive against any outsiders. They have had some success with some of these groups in AZ and UT as I understand it, in forging a more open relationship to be able to monitor underage marriages and such — it’s part of how they got to Jeffs for prosecution in the first place — but I have no idea if that gets to any real level of help or whether it is just barely scratching the surface for the at risk kids because we don’t deal much with that issue here in WV. If anyone has thoughts on this, I’d love to her them…</p> Even in single-family cases, it can take a long, long time to sort out this sort of mess — because, quite honestly, young children aren’t exactly equipped verbally or emotionally to talk about sexual abuse in an open and factually explicit way. And where they are, it can be unnerving, to say the least, and a logistical and investigative nightmare on a number of levels. And that’s just for sexual abuse cases. The regular physical abuse and/or neglect cases are heartbreaking enough — and to really begin to unravel anything you first have to gain some measure of trust with the kids you are trying to help and that can take quite a bit of time.

In this case, because of the way things were handled from the start, I’d say it will take a longer time frame for any social agency personnel to establish any real relationship with kids or adults in an already secretive community that is defensive against any outsiders. They have had some success with some of these groups in AZ and UT as I understand it, in forging a more open relationship to be able to monitor underage marriages and such — it’s part of how they got to Jeffs for prosecution in the first place — but I have no idea if that gets to any real level of help or whether it is just barely scratching the surface for the at risk kids because we don’t deal much with that issue here in WV. If anyone has thoughts on this, I’d love to her them…

]]> By: Christy Hardin Smith http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464475 Christy Hardin Smith Tue, 27 May 2008 16:00:25 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464475 <p>All true. But in an abuse and neglect case, the law generally requires that there be a particularlized showing of specific instances of abuse and neglect which go directly to a question of immediate harm to a child in that particular family based on conduct in that particulr family in which the child resides. It’s not set up for a “common family scheme” consideration as you would have in this type of community — which does not allow for a wholesale removal without a common showing of widespread abuse among all of these families.</p> <p>Which is to say, without a particularized showing for each, individual family, the wholesale removal went against the legal justification. It’s an odd situation, and one which — as I said — is going to be years in the unraveling, I’m sure. I cannot imagine having to be one of the attorneys on any side of this case, because it’s going to be a mess for quite some time.</p> All true. But in an abuse and neglect case, the law generally requires that there be a particularlized showing of specific instances of abuse and neglect which go directly to a question of immediate harm to a child in that particular family based on conduct in that particulr family in which the child resides. It’s not set up for a “common family scheme” consideration as you would have in this type of community — which does not allow for a wholesale removal without a common showing of widespread abuse among all of these families.

Which is to say, without a particularized showing for each, individual family, the wholesale removal went against the legal justification. It’s an odd situation, and one which — as I said — is going to be years in the unraveling, I’m sure. I cannot imagine having to be one of the attorneys on any side of this case, because it’s going to be a mess for quite some time.

]]> By: demi http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464473 demi Tue, 27 May 2008 15:58:51 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464473 <p>Oh, yes, I understand that it is a mess and I too worry about the emotional effects of being taken from their families.<br /> Also, I did not mean to disparage the entire Mormon Church. Fundamentalist faction, in deed. Imagine that! And, I don’t necessarily have a major beef with the Concept of Polygamy. It wouldn’t be my preferred relationship, but I worry for young women coerced into any type of relationship.<br /> I think you are right about it taking a long time to sort that mess out. As with other secretive organizations, including the political and government ones, it makes it especially difficult to see or understand what nefarious things are going on.</p> Oh, yes, I understand that it is a mess and I too worry about the emotional effects of being taken from their families.
Also, I did not mean to disparage the entire Mormon Church. Fundamentalist faction, in deed. Imagine that! And, I don’t necessarily have a major beef with the Concept of Polygamy. It wouldn’t be my preferred relationship, but I worry for young women coerced into any type of relationship.
I think you are right about it taking a long time to sort that mess out. As with other secretive organizations, including the political and government ones, it makes it especially difficult to see or understand what nefarious things are going on.

]]> By: Hugh http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464471 Hugh Tue, 27 May 2008 15:54:35 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464471 <p>These polygamous communities had to have been known to local and state officials and tolerated. What I find odd about this is that the argument is made by religious conservatives that if gay marriages are legitimized this will gut the case against polygamy and incest. But in the Texas case you have a religiously conservative group engaged in polygamy. I have not heard a big hue and cry from the religious right about this. If they were going to go ballistic about the one I would rather expect them to do so with reference to the latter but they don’t. I’m not saying they are supportive of polygamy but there silence on this is telling.</p> <p>Also I would argue that these polygamous families formed a tight knit community and that all of them contributed to an abusive environment. All of them knew about these inherently abusive underage “marriages” and not only did nothing about them but supported them.</p> These polygamous communities had to have been known to local and state officials and tolerated. What I find odd about this is that the argument is made by religious conservatives that if gay marriages are legitimized this will gut the case against polygamy and incest. But in the Texas case you have a religiously conservative group engaged in polygamy. I have not heard a big hue and cry from the religious right about this. If they were going to go ballistic about the one I would rather expect them to do so with reference to the latter but they don’t. I’m not saying they are supportive of polygamy but there silence on this is telling.

Also I would argue that these polygamous families formed a tight knit community and that all of them contributed to an abusive environment. All of them knew about these inherently abusive underage “marriages” and not only did nothing about them but supported them.

]]> By: FrankProbst http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464470 FrankProbst Tue, 27 May 2008 15:54:07 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464470 <p>Okay, first kneejerk reactions:</p> <p>The phrase “military sexual trauma”, and its sterile three letter abbreviation (MST), need to be discarded immediately. We’re talking about rape and sexual assault. “Military sexual trauma” seems to avoid the fact that not only is there a victim, there’s a perpetrator. Or a group of perpetrators. And those people need to be captured and charged for their crimes.</p> <p>I tend to have similar feelings about domestic violence and child abuse (which has now become “non-accidental trauma” in the pediatrics world). Beating up your spouse or your child should be seen as equivalent to–or worse than–beating up stranger on the street.</p> <p>As to whether or not rape or sexual assault can lead to (or worsen) PTSD (which should still be called “shell shock”, in my opinion, but I know that’s a losing battle), that seems like a no-brainer to me. And the VA psychiatrist who says otherwise needs to be reported to the state medical board and the national psychiatry board.</p> Okay, first kneejerk reactions:

The phrase “military sexual trauma”, and its sterile three letter abbreviation (MST), need to be discarded immediately. We’re talking about rape and sexual assault. “Military sexual trauma” seems to avoid the fact that not only is there a victim, there’s a perpetrator. Or a group of perpetrators. And those people need to be captured and charged for their crimes.

I tend to have similar feelings about domestic violence and child abuse (which has now become “non-accidental trauma” in the pediatrics world). Beating up your spouse or your child should be seen as equivalent to–or worse than–beating up stranger on the street.

As to whether or not rape or sexual assault can lead to (or worsen) PTSD (which should still be called “shell shock”, in my opinion, but I know that’s a losing battle), that seems like a no-brainer to me. And the VA psychiatrist who says otherwise needs to be reported to the state medical board and the national psychiatry board.

]]> By: Peterr http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464468 Peterr Tue, 27 May 2008 15:51:49 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/the-other-ptsd/#comment-1464468 <p>Julia’s upstairs with “<a href="http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/27/late-night-fdl-barbecued-veepstakes/" rel="nofollow">Barbecued Veepstakes: McCain Gnaws On His Prospects</a>.”</p> Julia’s upstairs with “Barbecued Veepstakes: McCain Gnaws On His Prospects.”

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