I was watching a clip of Geraldine Ferraro on Fox News the other day, and the ground is definitely being tested for an appeal to Hillary’s female supporters who think she’s been done wrong. (We’ll leave aside the supreme irony of the very architects of the anti-Clinton narrative playing the collective role of Sir Galahad here.) I watched the clip and thought "you know, if the Clinton exit isn’t orchestrated well and I’m John McCain, I go straight for the women."
Krugman is thinking along the same lines:
Mr. Obama will be the Democratic nominee. But he has a problem: many grass-roots Clinton supporters feel that she has received unfair, even grotesque treatment. And the lingering bitterness from the primary campaign could cost Mr. Obama the White House.
To the extent that the general election is about the issues, Mr. Obama should have no trouble winning over former Clinton supporters, especially the white working-class voters he lost in the primaries. His health care plan is seriously deficient, but he will nonetheless be running on a far more worker-friendly platform than his opponent.
Indeed, John McCain has shed whatever maverick tendencies he may once have had, and become almost a caricature conservative — an advocate of lower taxes for the rich and corporations, a privatizer and shredder of the safety net.
But elections always involve emotions as well as issues, and there are some ominous signs in the polling data.
In Florida, in particular, the rolling estimate produced by the professionals at Pollster.com shows Mr. McCain running substantially ahead of Mr. Obama, even as he runs significantly behind Mrs. Clinton. Ohio also looks problematic, and Pennsylvania looks closer than it should. It’s true that head-to-head polls five months before the general election have a poor track record. But they certainly give reason to worry.
The point is that Mr. Obama may need those disgruntled Clinton supporters, lest he manage to lose in what ought to be a banner Democratic year.
I spoke with a well-known pollster recently who said that if women think the country would be safer with McCain over Obama by 10 points on election day, she predicts that McCain will win. While it’s absurd to think that McCain would be better than Obama on women’s issues, these kinds of decisions are — as Krugman says — highly emotional. A pitch to "security moms," combined with an appeal about "elitists in the Democratic party" looking down their noses on working class women just might work.
A lot will also depend on Obama’s choice of VP is. If he decides to pass over Clinton/Napolitano/Sebelius, it will probably largely determine how McCain proceeds, so I don’t expect McCain to blink first. Does Obama try to go after the white male vote and shore up his military bona fides with Jim Webb? Webb’s "Women Can’t Fight" article will no doubt be resurrected. Does Obama try to help himself with Latino voters by picking Bill Richardson? Well, Richardson has notorious women problems (most recently his "Whizzer White" gaffe) that will come back to haunt him. Either choice leaves a huge opening for McCain to make a move.
Hell, if Obama can go after fundamentalist voters, there’s no reason for McCain not to court the ladies.
Related posts:
- Pay to Play: $1.4 Million a Day Buys a Lot of Votes
- Ceci Connolly Was the “Play” in the Washington Post’s Pay-to-Play Dinner Scheme
- Late Night: Hatin’ on Hillary – Get Over It Already.
- Democrats in Pay-For-Play Deal With PhRMA?
- Stuart Taylor: Sotomayor Not Just a Student Radical, but an Uppity Minority Female





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sup?
Maybe it’s a sappy sentiment but we need to come together.
St. John is the real bad guy.
.
What a pickle. How did we get here and why? I call B S but am not sure on who. whom?
Fast Eddie Rendell.
He’d deliver PA.
.
Bill now says there’s a media conspiracy to deny HRC the nomination.
what spork said
That is one of the best statements about this situation I’ve seen here in a while.
yep. that’s it.
Charlie Crist was one of the guests at McCain’s fake ranch. Charlie has a (fake) wife now according to the Bloomberg party photo shoot. Crist with McCain would probably put FL in the Red Column vs. either Hill or Obama (unless Crist is exposed as a gay man). Crist has fake Maverick street cred too, dontcha know (Courtesy of the MSM).
I’m puzzled by the notion that a Democrat can only be an effective campaigner if she/he is a Veep nominee …
I wish that Hillary had not played the “poor me” card. It will hurt women for years. She says she is stronger than anyone and then says they’re being mean to me. She can’t have it both ways – IMO
A sixty-something feminist, I believe that choosing Hillary would be a big mistake! First, forget Florida; I doubt that she could carry Florida either. Second, I think it’s important to slice older “feminists” into at least two camps: Those who remain angry for all of the accumulated sleights they have suffered for years; and those who would like to see a woman as President in their lifetimes, but who put a priority on evaluating candidates on their merits and on the issues. The former support Hillary; the latter favor Obama.
To offset the diehards who might stay home if Obama chooses someone else — or who might even be poorly enough informed (or angry enough to support McCain), Obama has a newly registered base of energized youth and minority voters. To implement his approach to leading this country, Obama needs team members who share his vision and can be trusted to support it. Hillary simply doesn’t make the cut on that basis; she’d be conniving to bring him down — From Day One.
Ding.
IMO-any woman who puts up with the crap that Bill put Hillary through for years is NOT fit to be president. Did she stay out of ambition? Not good enough for me. Winery gets you points off, too.
You weren’t supposed to connect the two … /s
The master of media manipulation has lost his touch and now he’s whining. Boo hoo.
And, as a 49 year old woman, I’m tired of listening to a strong, independent, rich, powerful woman whining that sexisim did her in when it was really her lack of old fashioned management skills that failed her. People management, organizational management, financial management, and knowing your market. She failed Business 101 and now, instead of owning up to being a bad manager, she’s blaming sexism. Great. As if whining helps anyone gain respect from anyone about anything.
Amen Sis !
Honestly, this type of sentiment is about to drive me away from blogs for good.
John McCain is a Republican who will continue the policies of George W Bush. He has said as much. Anyone who calls themselves a Democrats and votes for McSame is: not a Democrat, seriously deranged, or simply evil.
There is no discussion here: there is no here, here.
Sorry.
I was a johnny come lately in learning/knowing more about Obama and today I have the same curiosity about Sebelius. Just this morning was the first time I ever watched a video of her (Obama endorsement in KS). From my untrained eye as from a male pov, I feel like I saw VP potential based on person, not gender, but I want to know her better.
It will be very important for all the people mentioned in the OP like Webb, Richardson, Clinton (and Edwards among others) to play a visible and vocal role in this election. For the VP spot, I see advads and disads for each and imagine a lot will have to do with how each one becomes more recognizeable and positively regarded in coming months.
.
I recently got banned from a rabid female pro- HRC blog for “hate speech” and being an “Obama thug.” The “hate speech” was simply my usual snarky criticism of her bullshit. Unpardonable Sacrilege against Hillary’s Nomination Entitlement.
I’m against alcohol too but she is an adult!
Kinda like the Big 3 blaming Toyota/Datsun for deliberately misleading the public by making superior vehicles …
Hangin at Juno dot com huh?
Absolutely right. Fuck ‘em. Who needs to win? Let’s stand on principle here.
I have to agree with Jeff Toobin’s comments on Moyers the other night. The combination of reproductive rights and the Supreme Court may well unite Dems. McCain said the other day that he supports justices in the mold of Roberts and Alito, code words for the overturning of Roe v Wade, Affirmative Action, etc. Good argument to me. The next prez has a good chance of appointing 3 or 4 people to the Supreme Court, effectively setting the tone on the court for a generation.
Bhahahahaha – - gotta clean the coffee from the screen now.
LOL … ((( Raven )))
LOL…
No, Texas Darlin’ – saw a cross-post there one day over at
ObamaIsTheDevil.comtaylormarsh.com, and followed the link.Hillary can and should continue to run for the nomination but she needs to run against McCain and not Obama at this point in order to boost her candidacy IMO. Krugman’s column blamed Obama for the division in the democratic party and said it was up to him to fix by adding Hillary to the ticket. His article left me confused because both candidates are responsible for their own campaigns and at times both have crossed the line as far as hurting the democratic party. Uniting them at this point would not do any good but instead the VP nominee should strenthen the ticket. Both Obama’s and Hillary’s could be hurt because of McCain’s service to the country and the next nominee should look for a VP who can fill that void.
See my “Diploid Dave” post at my other blog.
ROFL … you made me spew my Root Beer Float, BobbyG …
707
That is the problem, isn’t it?
I honestly do not believe the purity tests that we constantly are forcing on people are useful. I really do not see that anyone has a choice between John McCain and Generic Democrat. You do. That is your right. But I have mine as well.
Not trying to cause a problem but this issue is, IMHO, not that complex.
true. one I won’t support.
If Clinton supporters are stupid enough to cast a revenge vote, what are we supposed to do?
Hillary has shot herself in the foot so many times, it seems to me any thinking person is gonna have even more a perception that she’s not much different from the hothead McCain.
If the Clinton supporters are willing to vote against their own interests, once again, we get the government we deserve.
“Principle” killed many a fine candidate.
Run to win.
.
I actually thought Krugman was more blaming Obama supporters and Clinton supporters as much or more than the actual candidates themselves.
Neither one has been very well served by their surrogates and supporters.
Damn, I was just there a bit ago.
I guess that Hillary would get a lot of the female vote but she is so disliked that she might hurt more than help. I really don’t want her as VP – would you as prez want Bill looking over your shoulder and Hillary telling you that she’s “been there, done that?”
i would always support my party’s nominee. i am starting to confuse myself. going to take a nap.
I live to serve.
;)
Did you listen to Geraldine Ferraro, and have you seen the comments on FDL by HRC supporters? They are convinced that they’ve been done wrong. And apparently there are a lot of them, since HRC still retains the support of millions, despite everything she’s done (in my view) to sabotage Obama and the Democratic Party.
Whoops!
Re-read Jane’s comment…I’m dim.
.
“would you as prez want Bill looking over your shoulder and Hillary telling you that she’s “been there, done that?”
________
They’d be tryin’ to pull a Cheney Two’fer outa the Naval Observatory, upstaging him at every opportunity.
I’ve been banned from MyDD for months. Even after a supposed amnesty had occurred last week. Not that I’m broken-hearted about it.
Yup. He’ll need someone he can trust.
Go to
ObamaIsTheDevil.comtaylormarsh.com, read the thousands of vitriolic anti-Obama comments, limbic screeds that rival the depths of Wingnuttia.I think so, too, and I hate to say it. I’ve always liked Bill and I was happy for Hillary to run and wanted her to do well. I wanted to see a female prez in my lifetime but she screwed up. Too bad.
I’ll tell ya – the thing that makes me recoil at the thought of voting for HRC in the General is the fact she voted to authorize, and has NEVER admitted it was a mistake, never said “Ya know, I really booted that one, I’m really sorry and it won’t happen again.”
Instead she’s made excuses. Weak excuses at that.
How her supporters reconcile that without massive cognitive dissonance remains a mystery to me but unless and until she acknowledges her vote to authorize was nothing but a colossal blunder, I’m going to have to grab my voting wrist and drag it to the spot where I punch a hole to vote for her.
I see so little difference between she and McCain it has become a blur. She is Joe Lieberman in a pantsuit. For me, it’s that simple.
I’ve been saying that is why I could not support Hillary for over a year and I’ve gotten a big dose of “what about the supreme court” for my trouble.
Yes, and can ANYONE explain to me WHY she has supporters like she does, IN SPITE OF everything she’s said and done that is actually, fresh out of the KR playbook??? From racism to encouraging McCain votes is she’s not the nominee, to the remark re RFK’s assassination….. how could anyone not see her for what she really is and continue to back her??? I’m dying here for someone to explain that to me!!!
Yeah, ding. Like I could give a flip about the dead-end dirt road cyberdigs of Texas Darlin’ and her glandular Cast of Dozens.
Didja see that immigrant who stole the job from a hardworking white male in Wesleyan … *g*
Mayhaps I should have taken the time to read that the first time through. You have every reason to be proud. Good on you.
Hey, I wouldn’t worry about all them sweeties.
Bludgeon them senseless with Roe v. Wade, leave them alone, and they’ll come home, wagging their tails behind them.
Or, like, you know — not.
I know. I’ve heard about it, but am satisfied that I get the flic from the isolated samples I’ve seen. If I look at it too closely, I’m inclined to get stupid and think, “To hell with it, I don’t care if McCain wins.”
After four years do I really need to add a “snark” tag?
I guess it’s that bad.
Ditto.
Since Obama seems likely to be the next nominee, he might have to do more to unite the party but Hillary could and should help. Rather that attack Obama she should go after Bush and McCain. Adding her to the ticket does not necessarily help; all you have to do is read the commenter’s on Talk Left who think that the election was stolen from her. There are those who want her first on the ticket not second. I know that I have lost enormous respect for her after her Florida rantings. Somebody need to let her know that caucuses count.
It is that bad. Seems like its going to get worse. The link is worth reading.
Don’t let your mouth get you into something your ass can’t get you out of. :)
I’m almost afraid to poke my head in here.
Thanks.
It was a “character-building experience,” LOL! Everybody says ‘Gladd, you’re a real character…’
my bold.
agreed. how we got to a place where clinton is a standard bearer for pro-feminists is beyond my comprehension. imo she has done nothing to deserve it – just the opposite. a movement that is primarily concerned with understanding power relations so as to resist hierarchies – particularly patriarchy – can not be represented by clinton if what Jeff Sharlet said in yesterday’s book salon is close to true:
again, my bold
Back to the ashram witchoo.
Carter told a British anchor that it will be over after June 3rd … we’ll we how her campaign handles these next 8 days … will they go for broke or try to save her legacy …
We’re all very tired…
Hillary has blamed the Obama campaign and now the media for her problems but I have been amazed at how quiet the Obama people have been. They have re-acted to things she has said while her spokesmen (dear old Terry) have been out there babbling every day. The Obama campaign is terrific and it obviously works.
Namaste.
;)
lol … watch out for those incantations
I don’t think you’ll get an explanation. It’s too bad.
I can’t. From what I’ve read, the explanation which seemed to make some sense to me was that a large number of women over 50 have come to see Hillary as the redemption (?) from all of the sexism the’ve encountered. It seems to me that they’ve developed tunnel vision overs something. My own view is that it would be a great bonus to elect either the first able African American, or the first able woman, but either goal is a matter of straightening the deck chairs on the Titanic. We’ve got to put out real fires.
imperial view of American power
now I can’t sleep. sh*tfire.
Hey, while you are at it could you dump the “YOU HAVE WON” thing that keeps popping up. The damn thing beeps and it drives me and the dogs nuts!
No need for it here, the civility around here usually holds up pretty well. I only have to head for the bayous ever so often …
I was undecided til she said McCain would make a better commander in chief than Obama. In the face of her throwing the Democratic Party under the bus on that one, I decided for Obama. No regrets.
Maybe a snark tag after your name in the header?
-G
Off to the movies, it’s the only way to get the princess to put down the grubbin hoe and come in from the garden!
Hi!!
Obama’s apparently learnt one key rule of FDL … Do.Not.Feed. … *g*
I really thinks thats a gross oversimplification, imho.
New GritTV upstairs if you like
A rule oft violated by some of we more pugilistic lakers I guess.
She already answered that when she blamed Obama for her unfortunate comments to the Argus about why she was staying in the race. Many times during the campaign she praised McCain over Obama. Somebody the other day called her Lieberman lite but she’s been rather heavy the last few days.
“Sniper Fire” finally tipped me. Cemented by “hardworking white Americans.”
And, Cheryl and I had caucused for her here (NV).
I keep hoping he’ll pick Jindhal so he’ll resign and quit making things down here worse.
I would think it’s more like the male politicians have been so bad, especially this bunch … that Hillary looks good by comparison …
I think these women over 50 are not seeing the real “hill” because they aren’t seeing her, they are seeing THEM in her and they ARE bitter, angry and want some kind of revenge. Her in the White House, they think, would do it for them. (That STILL doesn’t explain her getting a pass on her horrible campaign tactics INCLUDING lending herself money (buying her way into the campaign/White House). I also think that if she ever GOT the White House, within 6 to 9 months, these same women would be pissed, bewildered, feel betrayed and humiliated as she proceeded onward with her “all about me” candidacy and her personal ambitions which would, in policy and word, have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with them. NOTHING WHATSOEVER!
Oh, it’s still fun to roast the odd Troll, IMVHO … *g*
I don’t know about that.
For me, a winery is worth bonus points. )g.
Krugman, as usual, makes a good point.
Agree that VP will be critical (for both parties) but I still come around to ‘Who’s on the Team”? Who’s in the cabinet?
Will either nominee think a bit more creatively about how to organize the Cabinet?
When HUD is completely separate from Trans, you get bad urban design, which leads to sprawl. Which leads to all kinds of other problems.
I think people are probably about ready to move ‘beyond demographics’ and cut to the chase of ‘given the fact that government is broken and we’re going broke, how are you going to fix government and what’s it going to look like?’
But after Cheney, I do agree that a lot more attention will focus on ‘who’s your VP’?!
Is Jindhal that dumb?
Um … yes ?!! *g*
You didn’t detect the tone of grasping on my part. I would appreciate you’re explaining it to me then.
Can someone please define “feminist” for me? I don’t think I understand the word. I always thought it meant “someone who believes, first and foremost, in equal rights for women”. But I think I must be wrong, because a lot of so-called “feminists” are now saying they’ll vote for McCain over Obama if Clinton isn’t the nominee. If you’re voting for McCain over Obama, that’s your choice, but you’re not going to convince me that you sincerely believe in equal rights for women. I’ve consistently called bullshit every time Joe Lieberman calls himself a “Democrat”. This strikes me as the same type of thing.
This is an interesting read.
no, he’s not dumb and that’s one of the problems. However, he is very dangerous. He’s bright, articulate and is really good at hiding his incredibly radical right views with that code language that the majority of voters don’t understand but the nutty side of the republican party does. Since he’s Indian, he’s like Clarence Thomas, he looks like he couldn’t possibly hold those self-loathing kind of viewpoints, but he does. That also makes him dangerous. He can hide behind his ethniticity.
{{{m mcm}}}
i’ve (ugh!) just moved. bought a house. can’t find the green scrubber for the dishes. or even a giant lampshade! the great part of the house is i can walk out my back door and be on trails that will eventually take me to the creek. sound familiar?
Well, if you’d like me to elucidate, I’d be glad to. Because I am one of those women to whom you are referring. If you want to open the entire can of worms here, you’d best ask Jane. I promise to be polite, eurudite and succinct as possible and will not resort to below the belt hate speech. But I cannot control the verbiage of others.
02. – I think it is gonna be Sibelius
even if Obama goes another direction, I can not believe a campaign as thoroughly planned and executed as BO’s is somehow not going to do all they can to pick up HRC supporters
I could have easily gone down the path chosen by these HRC supporters, I more than fit the profile (and pls remember firedogs, most of this profiling is done by middle aged white males) but I didn’t – I chose to support Senator Obama bec HRC was making promises to beat back the VRWC and she couldn’t even beat an insurgent campaign in her own party and never once adjusted strategy –
plus I have been lucky enough to read some foul mouthed fem bloggers who remind us all it aint about ‘me’
i feel i have woken up in the 1950s Donna Reed time warp…all this bullshit is maufactured…seems thats one business (manufacture of complete and utter bullshit) that is still HIGH PAYING(and NOT offshored,cept when they are on yheir mega yachts)…20 ,000,000.00 to limpballs per year and 10,000,000,.00 to Beck,and all the other toal BS artists…boy what a lucrative ponsy scheme
I was afraid of that. Finally, a smart LA governor with no moral strength. another crook.
The lesson from the past 7 years has to be that we cannot afford to put so much power into anyone’s hands … that is the definition of giving up one’s own power and emboldening dictators.
All of us, in America and around the Globe, have to coordinate our efforts to win by a considerable margin, both the White House and Congress as the way to reverse the catastrophe of BushCo …
There are so many levels of being a feminist. I personally thought that Steinum and Bella Abzug were right on the money. And then there was Andrea Dworkin (sp?) who said that the very act of sex was rape – but then she wore overalls and combat boots.
Go figure.
Like everything else, it probably connotes a wide and lumpy distribution of views, all the way from “he helps with the dishes” out to “every act of penetration is an act of rape.”
I’d gladly come down there to run against my ethnic brother … only if there is a Hockey team though … *g*
Nah, he’s full of ‘morality’. It’s the self-righteous kind, I’m afraid.
actually, there is one in Lafayette.
A very interesting take on the subject and one I’ve agreed with since Clinton was prez. My opposition to Clinton has never been about what she says or does. It’s about the continuation of policies that benefit the 1 percenters, sabotaging the the rest of the country. And the rest of the world for that matter.
found this to be encouraging
kansas . . .who’da thunk it ?:D
I now your position, because I’ve read some of your earlier posts. Like you, I don’t want to see the post diverted. While I’ve had real verbal conflict with Juno, I took no particular offense at yours. You can explain what you wish, but since I can’t effect the beliefs of Hillary supporters anyway, I guess it wouldn’t serve much purpose.
For your information, I admired and respected both Bill and Hillary Clinton, and actually had no real preference for Obama until her “McCain and I count but Obama doesn’t” statements and subsequent actions. I’ll never understand those from anyone who believes it is important to throw out the Republicans and start repairing damage.
oh, totally. it was, originally for me, the fact that I just never trusted her. I see back room deals, secret arrangements, pro lobbyist policies, the whole 9 yards. That was then. NOW, is see her conniving and tasteless and ruthless tactics, and her telling all those people that “She will never quit for THEM!” and they believe that so whole heartedly. I’m just stunned that these people, and ESPECIALLY the women, can’t see right through her. She’s been a terrible example of leadership throughout this thing, and they just won’t open their eyes and simply LOOOK at her. it’s astounding and for me, it’s extremely and profoundly sad. I think Obama is going to get his nomination. And those people and those women will NEVER know what the rest of us did for them. they’ll be ANGRY! They should be so very very THANKFUL! i FEEL so badly for them!
Bobby Jindal has zero chance of being the Vice Presidential nominee. He’s of Indian descent, and he doesn’t look “white”. McCain would lose all of the racist, anti-immigrant voters with him on the ticket, and those folks are threatening to jump ship to begin with. The only reason he’s being “considered” is so that McCain can try to convince his adopted daughter, and the rest of us, that the Republican party isn’t obscenely racist.
The only viable (i.e. straight, white, Protestant male) person I’ve heard suggested for the Veep spot on the Republican side is Tim Pawlenty, who’s attractive because he would put Minnesota in play, and the focus on him might be enough to pull reporters away from the “Larry Craig bathroom” in Minneapolis when the convention rolls around.
I do think that the women’s movement is going to take on an entirely new breath of air from all of this. For what that’s worth … maybe I will see an ERA pass in my life time. I sure tried working hard for it in my 20s.
see my 65, i don’t understand it either. reminds me of clarence thomas complaining about his “lynching” during the supreme court nomination hearings.
… i mean, i understand people thinking that clinton would make the better president and supporting her candidacy based on that. what i don’t understand is how she, apparently, has become a feminist standard bearer. imo, the good rev. wright’s views, if his sermons are any indication, are more pro-feminist than clinton’s.
Mebbe they’ll put Jindal on the ticket so’s they can blame him for the devastating loss in November … that would serve to keep minorities off the Repub ticket for the next couple of centuries …
What I have a problem with is this: for a long time now, Obama has been a prohibitive favorite to win the nomination. While the rank and file supporting either candidate have continually slung mud at one another, it is pretty clear that Clinton’s actual campaign has been excessively…tonedeaf…would be a nice way of putting it–divisive, to one even imagine a wide swath of Clinton Democrats voting for McCain?
All the while–all–the candidate, her husband, her campaign, and her followers have repeatedly whined away that they have not been treated fairly, and Obama must be the conciliatory one of the two. In fact, Clinton and her supporters are the ones who will be required to bring about the rapprochement in the party; if they fail to do so, and we have another 4 years or more of a Republican administration, Hillary Clinton and her supporters will become pariahs to progressives everywhere for their selfabsorbed tunnel vision.
Barack Obama, whatever his shortcomings, has not been the Clinton campaign’s enemy. On the contrary, he has been repeatedly gallant in his response to the 1001 mispeaks that have mired and besmirched the former First Lady of the United States and Senator from New York; to see the real enemy in this campaign, they need to take a good, long hard look in the mirror.
Selise, I agree with you. I don’t remember Hillary beating the drum for feminist values and rights when Bill was in the WH. I think she has a lot of people fooled.
Well, my first take is i this. I think Obama cannot win the GE. I was born in Oklahoma, raised in Iowa and Nebraska. I moved to New Orleans from Minneapolis. My family if from Kansas City. I know the great fly-over well. I’ve been active in politics since high school. I’ve run for office and I’ve run other folks’ campaigns. I think this is a repeat of at the very best, Dukkakis, at the very worst, McGovern. Louisiana will not be in play if Obama wins the nomination. So, I’m focusing on local races, period. Wouldn’t make any difference if Obama ran jesus christ as his running mate –none of the aforementioned states will go for him.
I believe he is a seriously flawed candidate and that things will only get worse as this goes on. And if you want me to go into that I will. Hopefully, you all know me well enough to know that I live in the ninth ward, I teach at a university that is ranked number one in the nation for diversity, and that my children are multiracial. And that you know I support a progressive agenda. So, I am not coming from a view point that seems to be ascribed to Hillary voters. Also, I’m a financial economist and teach university. So, I’m not uneducated either.
We’re a couple of lonely torch bearers where Rev Wright is concerned. I still listen to those sermons. Whole lotta truth goin’ on.
who has the best managerial style?
who responds to issues like a mature adult?
who uses critic thinking?
who is the least reactionary?
So True
the Clintons took a calculated risk in joining the GOP….of course their bread has been buttered with AAA grade BUTTER and Buluga caviar,so…alls well,that ends SWELL
I also don’t understand why Hillary can’t articulate–with any real conviction–why she’s staying in the race. It wouldn’t be hard for her to do so. There are plenty of good analogies, all of which don’t involve Robert Kennedy. She could, for example, just stand up and say: “Look, when the first person crosses the finish-line in a marathon, the rest of the runners don’t just drop out and leave the course. Even though we know who the winner is, the marathon isn’t over until the last person crosses the finish line.” Why can’t she do this?
I am a yoga/meditation teacher in Toronto and I respectfully disagree … Obama will win the GE by a landslide and his campaign strategy will be dissected for years to come for its sheer brilliance.
Many Dem Congresscritters will ride on his coattails to victory as well …
The leaked files from McCain’s office on this strategy should be a hoot. I’m just wondering what the title will be.
“Getting the trollop vote” – or “getting the c**t vote”?
(oh – for those who may find this useful: /s)
My first pick was Edwards. My second is Clinton. My third is Obama. John McCain is on the list too, somewhere below Satan himself (yes, I think Lucifer would make a more reasonable president than McCain).
That said, Clinton *has* been treated unfairly. I’ve never understood the crazy Clinton hatred. Back in the 90’s I thought it was just Right Wing acting. But Hillary never did anything to warrant how she’s treated (and no, voting for the AUMF was only bad, not evil…and her “sniper” portrayal is exceedingly forgivable).
I do think that Obama’s first General Election mistake will be snubbing Clinton. She would make a great President, and a great Vice President.
It made a lot of Democrats rich and impoverished a large segment of the population.
LOL … ((((( sadlyyes )))
Dakinikat – i’m not going to argue with your points because i think you very well could be right. obama is pretty much a cypher to me, and i think that’s been intentional.
but i wonder – to feel the anger at obama and his supporters that i read about at taylor marsh or even talkleft or here when paul lukasiak was posting?
really not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to understand… thanks.
a good read
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01…..nted=print
ROFL … kirk, you’re in fine form as always …
Oh, Dakinikat, you just made my day, because I’m so happy to spread some joy: You are in for a big surprise come November! Your pessimism in national political matters will be smashed!
If nothing more, and there’s a lot more, remember the economy; also, remember the vast majority, like 75%, of the electorate hasn’t begun to look at their decision. And when they do, they’ll do that reflexive thing and throw out the party in power.
It ain’t pretty, intellectually, but it’s how things work.
And America gets another chance.
i loved how he spoke about tiger woods – a successful black man that needs to lose for having played on a course that discriminates against women.
I am going to post this in toto from a contributor at Eschaton known as Ba’al. (For those who do not know him, he is a research scientist in Texas whose specialty is bio-chemistry. He appears on television occasionally when they need someone to explain the stem cell debate and such.
you feeling bettah,i hope dear?
“Getting the trollop vote” – and/or “getting the c**t vote”?
Is that two different types of votes?
I understand your viewpoint, and have heard that stated by Hillary Clinton also. What I don’t understand, once it became apparent that the numbers were with Obama, and neither could beat the Republicans without the full support of the other, why the Clinton campaign continued to attempt to weaken Obama. There was a time, like John Edwards, the other Democratic candidates, and all of the Republican candidates to pull out and fully support the ticket. The issues are that important. I still can’t grasp the emotionalism and dislike for Obama personally, if the issue is a pragmatic matter of electability.
I was raised in Texas and have lived here most of my life, with periods in Louisiana and South Carolina. So I am familiar with the obstacle faced by either candidate.
Barack Obama, whatever his shortcomings, has not been the Clinton campaign’s enemy. On the contrary, he has been repeatedly gallant in his response to the 1001 mispeaks that have mired and besmirched the former First Lady of the United States and Senator from New York; to see the real enemy in this campaign, they need to take a good, long hard look in the mirror.
I’m sorry, but this is the true MO here. His operatives say outrageous things, send outrageous emails and notices for two days and then He comes out and tries to be above the fray. This is simply not a true statement. David Axelrod is Rove with 1/2 the brain and less morality. Do not think that this entire thing has not been orchestrated this way because this pattern has continued throughout the entire primary.
And I do not expect Senator Clinton to be a boddhisattva, I do however expect her to win. I do not think Obama can hold the democrats with the little ‘d’ in the party. We cannot win the GE with the same two slices of the democratic pie that showed up for McGovern and for Dukkakis.
Forgot my manners. (bows) Konichiwah, sadlyyes.
Buttresses my argument. Thanks for the link.
{{{{{PETRO}}}}}}}
SD has not been well ?
… hands on the screen, sending healing vibes …
A lot of the anger at the moment on Taylor Marsh is aimed at the three or four Obama supporters that come and repeat the same endless stuff over and over again. Folks around there get very frustrated.
I hope you can tell that my posts generally question things very calmly and logically. At HuffPo, I am now referred to as a troll whenever I make any comment that actually gets through on anything. All of my comments at HuffPo and DailyKos are now moderated into byteland. I cannot even post on economic issues any more. It all is deleted by the moderators. This is one of the few places where my name is not automatically shut off now. This is an extremely frustrating experience and a violation of the very idea of democratic discourse.
Speaking only for myself ….
Clinton and Obama are both well to the right of me; neither was on my short list of those-for-whom-I-would-cheerfully-vote. I’ll vote for whichever one is nominated, but
right now
I am not happy with Clinton’s campaign style. It’s tone-deaf, it’s not well-run, and it’s definitely into the whiney end of its lifecycle.
I’d have a harder time voting for her than for Obama.
I don’t think she’d be good as VP: she thinks she wants to be President too much to really handle being in the second chair. (I’m not sure whether she actually believes she’d be good as President – that’s an awful lot of off-notes she’s hit, if she really wants the job.)
no a teh sad occurence
On my part, I’ll allow the answer to your excellent question to remain virgin territory.
Yep. Got her ashes back last Monday. Helps to have her home. Behaviour of the rest of this crew has changed dramatically. I think they knew she was seriously ill long before the vet or I did. Very smart and intuitive they are. Teaches me to pay better attention.
“I’m sorry, but this is the true MO here. His operatives say outrageous things, send outrageous emails and notices for two days and then He comes out and tries to be above the fray. This is simply not a true statement. David Axelrod is Rove with 1/2 the brain and less morality. Do not think that this entire thing has not been orchestrated this way because this pattern has continued throughout the entire primary.”
I really want to understand this. Please tell me where to go to read about these operatives. Thanks.
you are saying Obama will lose LA., NE., MN., MO., OK., in the General ?
far be it for me to disagree given your stated background – but you are saying this knowing the sheer number of votes and donors to date and the campaign infrastructure BO has put in place ????
She’s the DLC’s rising star! Just what we need.
you did stellar imo
Ding.
absolutely. i hope i have never given you reason to think otherwise.
disagreement need not lead, i hope, to disrespect. whatever i think of the clintons (and, yes, it is not good), NONE of that transfers people who have supported senator clinton’s presidential campaign.
completely agree. i have tried to strongly argued against censorship of anti-clinton comments here and i would do the same for you.
crikey ! she’s DLC ?!?!? blerrghh
she isn’t my pick btw, just a gut feel for his pick
Obama fills America’s engines with Petro Spiritual taking the “High Road”. He does have patience and compassion. As the song goes…”You take the low road and I’ll take the high road and I’ll be in the White House afore Ye.
You have my vote Petro. Maybe Obama and Edwards works? Good hair, good heart and good intentions….we can do worse.
I don’t think there is a personal dislike for Barrack, however, I will agree there’s some strong dislike for Michelle. The argument is that Obama’s resume is very thin and that most of his positions have come from cronyism. There are many questions concerning his relationship with Rezko and Ayers. Additionally, his gaffes are becoming legendary in the press corps. He thought that Oregon was next to a Great Lake. He said Brazillians speak Spanish and that in Afghanistan they need arab translators. He made a lot of misstatements about FARC. Additionally, in Oregon when asked about Hanford, he had to ask what it was. They don’t think the Press holds him to the same standards.
I think there is the perception that he’s being shoved in front of Hillary even though he is not ready for prime time and that rings of the experience a lot of women have had. Many women have watched consistently younger and less experienced men be promoted around them.
… and all that with just half the Dem party.
What will he do when the party unites?”
I’m tired. Ferraro is a racist nut case who can’t bear to see someone not white succeed in politics and goes out hate mongering. Bill definitely suffered oxygen deprivation during his heart surgery and wanders the country leading a whine fest. HRC blunders on from sniper fire, to obliterating Iran, to hard working, white Americans to Kennedy’s assassination. And, this mess in the democratic party is by extension of the argument in the post (and in Krugman’s thoughtless column) all Obama’s fault.
Sigh, I am going to take my whiskey and wander around in the woods.
A la Grover Norquist, I want to shrink the DLC down to a size where I can flush it down the shitter.
that makes a lot of sense. thanks for that.
I’ll refer you to George Stephanopolous on the “RFK” thing and his conversation with Bill Ayers. The first example of this was with the South Carolina “Fairy tale” comment. His surrogates pick up on a comment they feel that they can use to their advantage and pummel the press with constant emails and pressers on the outrage. Two days later, on all these occassions, the candidate comes out smiles, and says I think the press has made too big of a deal on this. Watch the Stephanopolous interview with Axelrod from Sunday. This is just the latest example. It’s what I’d expect from Karl Rove. Axelrod represents the dirtiest of chicago politics. You need to familiarize yourself with him
That would be my ticket – Obama/Edwards – but irrespective of the ticket, we will all have to unite and fight as one for the GE … and my hair deserves to be in Office somewhere … *g*
sorry that was a mistake, not ayers… axelrod…fruedian slip there .. the ayers connection worries me a lot btw
And, of course, HRC represents the best of Arkansas outstanding type of politics, huh?
are you kiddin?
Geraldine Ferraro, Bill Shaheen, Terry McCauliff, Nothing to see here…
Just don’t agree at all. Obama has a new message not the same old DLC message and as far as his wife being unlikeable, IMO that’s a right wing smear campaign at work. She was so proud at all involved in the political process and I am too. I am actually old enough to remember when JFK ran and there was the same type of intensity.
I think my point on this is, even if you *HAVE* my vote for Obama, it won’t make a difference in the GE. However, if Hillary *HAD* your vote, it would. That’s a big difference.
How so?
you left out Sidney You’re Dead To Me Now Blumenthal :D
Campaign surrogates will beat the hell out of the other candidate when they say something stupid. That’s sort of their job. As a candidate, your best defense against this is to avoid saying stupid things. Obama’s “bitter” comment was jumped on by Clinton surrogates, and Clinton’s “assassination” comments were jumped on by his. That’s pretty much how it goes.
I disagree with you in your thought that only blacks and university-educated whites are the only people that will vote for Obama, though. He’s being portrayed as the elitist snob in the race right now, despite the fact that both the Clintons and the McCains are worth more than $100 million. That goes with the territory, I’m afraid. We could nominate a homeless man who’s eaten nothing but dog food for the past ten years, and the media would still try to paint him as someone who thinks he’s better than “regular” Americans. I think when people get to know more about Obama (His grandfather was a furniture saleman from Kansas who fought in WWII, his mother and his grandparents raised him while she went to school at the University of Hawaii, etc.), they’ll find that they have far more in common with him than they do with McCain (who called his wife a “c***” and didn’t get c*str*ted for it, and who has numerous mansions, including one with an artificial lake for him to fish in).
~~~Edited and released by mods~~~
There has never been a nice, sedate political campaign any where. The politics of today is a girl scout picnic compared to those past. I do not expect perfection – I expect the prez to do what is best for our country – that’s all I ask.
listen, that connection is going to be hammered by 527s, it will not serve any one well
This is an absurd generalization. You are attributing motive to hundreds of thousands of people you don’t know. I’m a 49 year old feminist. Gore was my choice, I put time and money into an effort to draft him. Edwards was my second choice, I spent a great deal of time and money on keeping him in the race – door to door in other states, ponying up week after week. The race was better when Edwards was part of it. Between Hillary and Obama I see not much difference, they are both funded by big money with big money interests. Frankly I don’t like or trust Obama, and I think there is much that remains to be disclosed about him. I sense that he is lying about his relationship with Rezko, and I suspect more will come to light. I hope I am wrong. I will vote for him in the general, because the alternative is unthinkable, but I believe he may lose.
As for Hillary, disliking her for her positions, her Iraq vote or her Bosnia “mistatement” is one thing, the virulent Hillary hatred? Bizarre. I don’t even hear people trashing Cheney or Rove the way Hillary is trashed. Again, I liken it to the hatred shown Yoko Ono – same kind of phenomenon. And you know what folks? Its a hatred reserved specially for women, plain and simple, something our culture has had a couple thousand years to perfect.
oh i thought you meant Ayers sacared you……
Not me..It’s not any more connected than the present Pope is to his continuents. How old was Obama when Ayers was in the news?
… anyone seen PetePierce ?
whoa – all i was saying is that one line i quoted helped make sense of the rage i read in the pro-clinton blogs. that is all.
Well, I just don’t see that. I liked them both and couldn’t choose between them before I had to vote in the primary. I still thought both were intelligent, pragmatists who knew how to consider issues and solve select the most likely solution without regard to ideological bliners. I actually thought HRC was right on health care, but believed either one, like FDR, would adapt programs as intelligence and experience dictated.
When the HRC campaign sat back and did not compete effectively in 11 primaries, I thought they lost it. I still do. In view of the fact that they were not winning, it seemed to me that their campaign had to try to destroy Obama. Stating it very very mildly, I found that inappropriate.
Although I hadn’t heard the gaffe’s you mention, they don’t particulary bother me. I know that he’s smart enough to know there are only fify states. Likewise, I rationalized supposed Hillary gaffes or intentional insults, like his apparent Christianity, but couldn’t see anyway around the “McCain and I are qualified, Obamma not,” statements. So, apparently we are not going to see things alike, and it appears the result will be McCain.
Bill Ayers, professor of education at the University of Illinois at Chicago, known for his work in school reform.
“Ayers is currently a Distinguished Professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, College of Education. His interests include teaching for social justice, urban educational reform, narrative and interpretive research, children in trouble with the law, and related issues.[11]
He began his career in primary education while an undergraduate, teaching at the Children’s Community School (CCS), a project founded by a group of students and based on the Summerhill method of education.[12] After leaving the underground, he earned an M.Ed from Bank Street College in Early Childhood Education (1984), an M.Ed from Teachers College, Columbia University in Early Childhood Education (1987) and an Ed.D from Columbia University in Curriculum and Instruction (1987).[11]
He has edited and written many books and articles on education theory, policy and practice, and has appeared on many panels and symposia.
Ayers was tapped by Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley to shape that city’s now nationally-renowned school reform program.[13] Since 1999 he has served on the board of directors of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an anti-poverty, philanthropic foundation established in 1941. This became controversial in the 2008 United States presidential election, as Barack Obama had served on the board until 2002, with overlapping times of service with Ayers”
Terrible fellow, just reprehensible!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers
The other thing that I’m really suprised is that as a progressive, you don’t have a problem with his association with folks that have clearly benefited from the current financial crises. You are aware of his finance chair and her family and her money’s role in the current subprime mortgage debacle aren’t you?
Or go to Daily Kos and read thousands of vitriolic anti- Hillary comments. What’s your point?
As democrats we better figure out what we are trying to achieve in the general election. Or we are going to lose it.
“agreed. how we got to a place where clinton is a standard bearer for pro-feminists is beyond my comprehension. imo she has done nothing to deserve it – just the opposite.”
This may sound simplistic, but then, the correct explanation often turns out to be the simplest one: I think it has to do with the years of sheer abuse and demonizing the Clintons have had to put up with from our – and, sometimes, their – enemies. Like myself, there are many on the left who recognized them for the selfish political operatives they were (and still are), but we were still willing to come to their defense – however reluctantly – because of the deafening volumes of sheer ugliness being flung their way from the far right, the media and the Rethugs. There were such violations of common human decency during the Clinton impeachment fiasco that one had no choice but throw in one’s lot against a common enemy. As little as Bill Clinton deserved our help, it wouldn’t have benefited us in any way to let the GOP have their way with him. (It’s for this reason that watching Hillary embrace Murdoch, Limbaugh and Scaife really seems like the Ultimate Betrayal in many ways.)
For someone with absolutely no political scruples, it’s a mere trick ‘o the light to shift that history of genuine nastiness from its rightful perpetrators (i.e. the American right) to another, entirely innocent group, if it serves a selfish purpose. And while the Clintons may not be liberals themselves, they’re certainly willing to use liberals, as well as other allied groups, like feminists. Thus, the cries of wicked ’sexism’ was brought to bear against any Democrat who could correctly see Hillary for what she was. The unfortunate thing is that there’s so many willing dupes eager to swallow this bullshit…but then, it’s hardly unknown for public figures to be judged by their reputations & lofty rhetoric and not their actual deeds, you know? Hillary’s good buddy John McCain has made an entire career in politics based on that principle.
I’m not so sure about Ayers because the connection is thin. When confronted with Ayers there was no answer when I brought up Obama’s age and the fact that the present Pope had problems. Do all Catholics boycott because of his past, I don’t think so.
I didn’t bring up the 50 states gaffe, i thought that one came from being genuinely tired. I do think not knowing about the hanford n-site and FARC is more troubling.
i completely agree with your first paragraph – that was an absurd generalization. but i think your second paragraph is too.
Are you talking about Ayers or someone else?
All catholics are not on the Pope’s payroll. NOr is the pope’s wife on the payroll of the catholic’s spouses.
Somebody else said it first, but I agree that neither campaign has been helped by their more rabid supporters. There has been a lot of nastiness that has been a huge turn off to those of us taking a look at these two candidates.
I’m speaking about Ayers to JPL9. I speaking about Penny Pritzker to you.
Um … the Pope has a wife ?
LOL.
My question to you was about Obama’s connection to Ayers bothering you. Penny is another topic.
I’m not angry at either candidate, nor am I star struck by either candidate…If you line up their positions on the issues- you get a xerox copy…I don’t care which gets the nomination- but I sure as hell don’t want to see McBush in the White House…
People, by the way, seem into this election much earlier than normal. Had dinner last night with some fairly unpolitical sorts who were up on the very latest…
lol, poke an analogy long enough and it bleeds
Yours was a fantastic assessment, JohnDee. Many good points, all together true! Excellent post.
It sure gets old being told that not supporting HRC = misogynist. And furthermore that men have all been women haters forever, damn us all! got it. christ. Can’t any HRC supporters accept the myriad of alternate explanations, like we find her tactics unacceptable?
Boy, what a zinger. I bet you always pull that out as your secret weapon when you feel trapped and claim victory.
I’m going to point you here.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2…..the-money/
This is a pretty brief explanation of the connections and the issues.
The connection is not thin at all. That’s the point. He tries diminish it, but it is not thin.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2…..the-money/
Obama met Ayers when Obama was an adult and Ayers worked on poverty issues. Many people have been able to turn their lives around to do amazing things and those that do should be applauded not vilified which is why I brought up the Pope.
Christy with a new post a couple of flights up
I want the most electable democratic candidate facing john mccain. period.
I agree that Hillary, like her husband, has an exceptional mind for retention of facts on a huge number of discordant issue. She would have been effective as a part of any administration or in any government role. However, while I think Bush’s lack of information and curiousity is disasterous, I don’t think that having the best memory for intricacies is necessarily the best quaification for an effetive leader. Jimmy Carter, for example had an excellent engineers mind, actually beat the crap out of Ronald Reagan in debate, but was not very effective in dealing with Congress or increasing public support of his programs. Most of all, I won’t be able to get over the fct that she seems to prefer destruction of the Democratic Party chance, perhaps even the coalition of interests, to her own second place finish.
Canada’s Gov’t is apparently saving $$$ on fuel by pulling the Ukrainia President around in a Horse Carriage …Link
I agree with you that a lot of Hillary’s detractors as misogynist assholes. And I have no problem calling them misogynist assholes. But just because you disagree with them doesn’t mean that you have to support her. I have the same sorts of feelings about Al Sharpton: An awful lot of his detractors are racist assholes, and they need to be called out as such. But that doesn’t change the fact that he says a lot of really stupid things, and there’s no way I would ever want him to be the President of the United States.
In the name of…something…I’ll refrain from dissecting this point by point, but I’ll say this: Hillary is Joe Lieberman in a pantsuit. She is NOT a progressive, she is Carlyle group and the Board of Directors of Wal Mart.
She could largely defuse the hatred she gets on the left by doing on thing: Admitting the vote to authorize was a mistake and apologizing for it. But she won’t. Why? Because, like Joe Lieberman, she WANTS the war to go on and on, her lip service notwithstanding.
I look at a candidate based on their actions, not hot air. She voted to authorize and has not repented. Until she does that, until she shows anything but the unmitigated hubris she displays, I cannot in good conscience vote for her and I cannot see any difference between her and McCain.
Has zero to do with her gender. Has to do with her policies and actions. That and that bullshit “Takes A Village” book.
is there anyone else confirming/supporting that position (either the evidence or the analysis)? larry johnson lost me with his vile posts on the good rev. wright.
Larry Johnson needs to back up some of his rumors. Sorry but he lost me months ago with his innuendos.
I don’t see this as the clinton people destroying the Democratic party actually. Quite the contrary, I see the DNC forcing an outcome and there being some resistance to it. I’m not sure exactly what the dynamics were that put this current primary debacle into play, but counting small states more than large states, let some states move up primaries that won’t play any role in the GE but telling others they can’t, counting caucuses on the same ground as huge primaries, etc. All of this does not seem very democratic to me and I believe that is the blowback you’re seeing. They’re blaming it on the Clintons and their supporters because we’re not really going along with the plan like good democratic sheeple. Again, because this situation is not going to win the GE and that is my first and foremost priority.
Not to make a big point of it, but I will toss a little cold water on your suggestion significant numbers of folk are into this election earlier than usual.
My only support is from working politically the last few decades; the VAST majority of the electorate doesn’t have/allocate time in their lives for politics until after labor day; probably half the electorate doesn’t even say to themselves until mid-October, oh, year, I’m gonna look at the issues/candidates.
Political campaigns know it, and operate on it.
The folks you had dinner with almost undoubtedly come, as in all our associations, from some part of the social web in which you live. To understand how small our webs are, one need only run for political office, or try mass-marketing something, without national TV ad dollars…
and a REALLY BIG misongynist asshole who promotes Hillary all the time is LIMPBALLS …go figur
He has Rove’s blessings to do so …
I watched Bill Clinton’s admin level our National Forests for the megacorps (he lost his first bid for re-election as Gov ’cause he pissed off the local logging co’s), watched Hillary squander the chance to solve our health care mess, and watched the deadly consequences from both triangulations on people and places I love. More recently I’ve seen the deaths and misery from Bill’s “welfare reform”
And I see Obama – whatever he have said as a mewling baby pol in Illinois – vote for war funds and to fund the torturers without ever attemting a veto. When the DLC’s core ghouls spawned the Hamilton Project, Obama was right there to suck up to Citibank/BIg Dog’s Reuben and the other monsters of globalization in the room. (His choice to be there says far more than his “weasel words” at the time).
I fear both the candidates – and I see them both as single talons on the claw of the megacorps enforcement state (Democratic wing).
Yet I fear McCain and the Rethugs even more.
I hope the deeply flawed Dem candidates and their supporters come together to defeat the Rethugs.
Then we can get down to the real work of taking back our Republic – and ending corporate personhood and the corporate rule it maintains.
and LOOFAHBillo…”G”
Obama is not pristine in any of those things. I really think you should take a look at many of his advisors. Penney Pritzker is a very good example. She is his finance chair. Also, Tony Goolsbee, the economics advisor that told Canada not to worry about Obama’s rhetoric on NAFTA is well known for writing academic articles denouncing the corporate tax. He’s got tons of lobbyists working for him and he takes lobbyists money. Obama is as much of a Corportist as any of them.
But, again, I’m not looking so much for a boddhisattva, as I am looking for a democrat that will carrying the electoral math in the GE … that is NOT BHO.
Yes – that’s been quite obvious all along.
The Wright tapes were running through the tubes for a year before ABC News exposed Obama’s radical pastor and mentor.
Although some of Obama’s lies and flip flops are published – most are never aired on TV.
If Hillary had lied about her own father to obtain a key endorsement – it would have been headlined for months!
The Washington Post exposed Obama’s lie several months ago about the Kennedy’s bringing his father to America. But of course, it’s never been on TV.
Even the Kennedys went along with the lie.
Whatever it takes to wrap Obama in Camelot.
When Hillary embellished her Tuzla landing – she went to the public and apologized.
Obama went around the country for a YEAR spinning a tale about his father and the Kennedys – but when Obama’s lie was exposed – Obama issued a press release saying he had “erred.”
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/30/13655/6958
NObama!
Then what is the basis for the virulent Hillary hatred? Way beyond what I hear voiced here, or other blogs, for Dick Cheney. For David Addington. For Karl Rove. For Donald Rumsfield. For Condi Rice. Even for Cheney, people soften their criticism with humor, calling him Darth Vador to signal their rupugnance.
If people in Obama’s party had snickered when he was referred to as “boy” – we’d all be outraged. Hillary is called “bitch” and everyone nods, “well, she deserves it.” What kind of fuckery is this? I’d really like to understand it. Is there some secret youtube link to Hillary torturing puppies? Shagging old nuns? Spitting on homeless people? What is this fabulous case of mass hatred based on?
Now there’s a threesome I’m glad that I’ll nevvuh have to watch … *g*
yea like i would ever click that link agai…Bwahahahahahahaha
i have to tell you it gets old being told that i am a racist because i would not vote for obama also and that i am an uneducated hick … i think all that rhetoric and discourse needs to move to another planet personally
oh that Youtube of him going BALLISTIC…reallly.really shows you what kind of human feces NUTCASE he is
My understanding was that there were as many Clinton supporters in the DNC as anyone else had, particularly since only she and John Edwards were certain they would run. But that’s not the point. The point is that the election is supposed to be critical. When you look up in the warmups and see that you’re losing the starting position because you didn’t understand the rules right, you don’t disrupt the whole team so that it can’t play the actual game. I mean, that really makes the Tanya Harding accusation approapriate.
That has to be the single most craziest thing I’ve seen, and I’m a yoga teacher … *g*
I don’t support her, but I would vote for her in the unlikely scenario that she got the nomination. Likewise, I’ll vote for Obama.
her speaking of RFKs demise,shows her ruth…less character…look up Ruth
yea and he is 6′4….he is a loose nuke
are you speaking about michigan and oregon or what precisely? i’m not sure i’m following
Hopefully nobody on this blog but as a white female in my fifties I can assure you that people have different opinions. Once again I wish that Larry Johnson would back up some of his rants with fact.
I thought her RFK comment showed nothing of the sort … it was a simple illustration of an election time line and given that this is the 40 year anniversary of that happening and its been in the news along with Teddy’s horrible cancer, to infer any thing like that is intellectually dishonest
I agree she’s not a progressive. And your likening her to Leiberman is interesting, because he is the only other individual who has been the object of such an outpouring of rage and hatred. And while I don’t know that I agree she’s Leiberman in a pantsuit, I do think she is a suck up to big money.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that distinguishes her from Obama.
Main Entry:
ruth Listen to the pronunciation of ruth
Pronunciation:
ˈrüth
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English ruthe, from ruen to rue
Date:
13th century
1 : compassion for the misery of another
The “unity” candidate could only win the nomination by dividing the Party.
No problem. McCain will have a Dem Congress to keep him in check.
At least we know he won’t be engaged in race-baiting and attempting to destroy good people with false charges of racism.
And he won’t be using immature gestures – “brushing people off” the bottom of his shoe.
I read the post. I make it a habit of not using blogs as source material, particularly those as partisan as Larry Johnson’s. More opinion than substance. I don’t find Obama’s association with a former Weather Underground member disturbing. Judi Bari was a Weather Underground member and a person I look up to. I also respect Malcolm X and the Black Panther movement. I have to look beyond the violent rhetoric and condemn violence if it occurs. But I’m not going to flog someone 40 years later for their ideas or behaviour.
i despise senator clinton. i also despise bill clinton.
i despise the policies of the ’90s – trade (nafta, wto, ip laws, etc), torture (the start, as far as i know of the policy of extraordinary rendition), the iraq sanctions that may have killed hundreds of thousands of iraqi children, the pre-patriot act clamp down on our civil rights, media consolidation, banking deregulation, and undermining of the kyoto protocols…. and that’s just off the top of my head.
my anger is the anger of betrayal – because while i was defending the clintons from all the bs media shit that was getting flung at them, they were going about destroying much of what matters to me. only i didn’t see it until later.
Bill had one the Cali primary June 2nd…she LIES again
some of his rants are not backed up with anything but speculation, I believe that the Ayers piece was and that’s why I pointed you to it … there are much more inflammatory things out there, believe me
also, the wonderful thing about democracy is that we can all disagree and not wind up in a gulag (even despite Cheney’s wetdreams of that being a reality)
You were the one who indicated the DNC rules were a were a big part of what HRC group saw as a problem. So, I was essentially referring to the DNC meeting approximately two years ago which established the rules. Otherwise, we are all aware of the rush of states to get ahead of NH and IA. At the time, the rules were accepted by all candidates. But, even if they were later percieved to be unfair, do you really believe that is sufficient cause to throw the election to McCain.
p.s. i don’t call senator clinton “bitch”, in fact i rarely caller her hillary – seems demeaning to me. but that doesn’t mean i don’t despise her.
and Hillary brought up RFKs demise BEFORE Ted was diagnosed…..and in fact 4TIMES
agreed. can we send the rhetoric about how hating senator clinton must be a sign of sexism too?
And I forgot my manners towards you as well. (bows) Konichiwah, selise.
Obama is a Centrist – and to the right of Hillary on most issues.
Well, I’m an academic, I’m used to dealing civilly with marxists and theocratic republicans. But then, my judgement will not be in question by 527s running ads in Kansas, Florida, Ohio, Michigan, etc. If you have aspirations to office, you have to use judgements concerning your associations. As I said, as an academic, I have the liberty of associating freely and being protected for it …
I think you miss my point, I think sending Barrack Obama to the GE is throwing the election to John McCain.
I’m familiar with Ruth. And yeah, I thought that was a weird remark. But that still doesn’t explain why, for YEARS now, people foam at the mouth when Hillary is mentioned.
I mean there are some truly dispicable people around. Hillary may not be someone choice for prez. People may stronly disagree with her positions. But beyond that? I’d like to understand what fuels the rage, because it’s huge.
“As I said, as an academic”
You sure mention that a lot.
McSame is now vowing to be more open with the citizens of the US and the world. Now, how’s he going to to do THAT, while he continues with Simpleton McDrinky’s policies, the 3rd term??? Those two scenarios are just idologically opposed!
My fear is that these same blind “hil” supporters are the same ones who opted for the Beer With George reasoning to help put the eternal asshole in the White House in the first place! They are functioning on anything BUT analysis and conclusions based on fact. There was PUHLENTY of info out there when Bu$h got elected that should have sent every American running in the other direction. It was ignored, he was elected (sort of) and we’ve been paying for it dearly ever since. NOW they’re posturing to elect another Clinton, irregardless of the history and the multitudinous evidence of what a huge error that would be!
sorry, occupational hazard, used to putting agendas and credentials on the table prior to discussions, it is a habit
Obamamites have been taught to hate the Clintons.
Obama is high on hype and low on substance and his 2 basic strategies are race-baiting and “beat the Bitch!”
That’s why most Obamamites don’t know Obama voted with Republicans to give HUGE tax breaks to the oil companies – and voted AGAINST capping credit card interest rates. $5 gas? Obama sez – no problem.
Hate is a powerful drug and Obama’s college kidz are voting against their own best interests.
I understood you think that is the case. Obviously a large portion of Democratic voters think that’s debatable, which means you may be right,or you may be wrong. To many of us, it seems apparent that he will win the primary. Can you agree that, if you believed Hillary would lose the primary, it would be harmful to the interests of progressive voters to continue to oppose and undermine the Obama campaign?
DWDD, that comment does not exist on TalkLeft. He must have seen it somewhere else.
had to use the google. greetings?
my intention if BHO is the nominee is to work at the local level to see that Mary Landrieu is not replaced by a Republican. I will give all my money time and attention to her. I believe that it is important to achieve a veto proof democratic majority in the senate specifically and congress in general. That is where my efforts will be. I am encouraging disgruntled Hillary supporters in that direction also.
That’s just completely not true. Obamamites have not been “taught” to hate Clintons. He’s been exceedingly mellow regarding her. he has TONS of evidence he could throw out there and do her in. He’s held back, much to his credit, likely for the sake of the party (something that CANNOT be said of her!).
Those who prefer Obama over Clinton seem to be more informed and have perhaps longer memories. WE RECALL the Clinton years, and further, we SEE how she runs a campaign (terribly) and how she cares not one whit for the party when it comes to her personal ambitions. And she’s a liar. Bosnia Sniper Fire MY ASS@!
I wish I could plan my life so far ahead that I can shun anyone who may block the path of my grand goal. That would mean I could never serve on the board of a community organization where one of the board members was a radical 30 years prior. The city of Chicago didn’t seem to have a problem with Mr Ayers. I’m a philosophical supporter of the both the Earth and Animal Liberation Fronts. Pretty radical by today’s standards. Doesn’t make me a bad person.
hi jeralyn – i think the comment you quoted was his interpretation of what he reads on pro-clinton blogs. it wasn’t ever said to be a direct quote from anywhere.
Informal greeting in Japanese.
howdy back atcha!
Does that mean you are will not vote for Obama? If so, it seems to me that you have said you support Hillary Clinton because you don’t think Obama will win in the general election. If he wins the primary and you don’t vote for him, what will be the reason?
You’re argument is not with me. I just know that it’s not the sort’ve thing I’d want to be popping up in 527 ads. If the can make John Kerry look like a draft-dodging coward, just imagine the hey day they’re going to have with that and the Rezko association. Not to mention Obama’s cousin in kenya. That’s another one that’s going to pop out of the box soon.
check out this 527 ad: http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/
I agree.
Obama first played the Race Card by rolling out Oprahpalooza who told Blacks to vote for THE ONE – the Black one.
Then he began race-baiting and falsely accusing the Clintons of racism!
Obama learned a lot sitting in a pew for 20 years listening to Wright’s racist rants.
“Hillary ain’t never been called a N—-r!” – Rev. Wright, from the pulpit, Jan. 08
is similar to –
Obama “brushing Hillary off” the bottom of his shoe and laughing along with the crowdS.
And he’ll expect the Clintons to turn out the white vote for HIM.
Obama/Wright08
Geez. I know that wins me over. I’m getting in line with the more informed folks.
I do not intend to vote for Obama. It won’t make any difference one way or another. If Obama is the nominee, again, my purple state will go bright RED. My vote is a throw away any way.
I have a strong feeling that Obama’s team is well prepared for the crap from the 527’s. My understanding is they have a crew just for that purpose. He’s a lot smarter than Kerry ever thought of being. I’ve ridden on Kerry’s boat and he never showed me much, then or in 04.
It seems that would be the case whether the nominee were Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. If Obama were the nominee, and you were in a swing state, say Ohio, would you vote for him?
i wish we could keep our criticisms aimed at the candidates and not at each other.
… well, i’m going to catch the last bit of light and pull a few weeds.
Hillary has brought voters BACK to the Dem Party – and new voters too.
Blacks, kidz, latte sippers supporting Obama could always register and vote Dem.
But the “unity” candidate had to divide the party to win the nomination.
We won’t vote for a race-baiter!
Doesn’t matter how your state may go. It matters how many vote in total and for who they vote. Obama may lose. Clinton may lose. The solidarity behind whoever is the candidate is IMPORTANT. I will vote dem no matter what. All that aside, I believe that the dems will win.
depends on who it comes from … tweetie, timmeh, bill0 –sexists
and i kinda want to put a few folks in the racist column too … however, I think we can agree that most democratic activists are not sexist or racist as a generality ….
“We won’t vote for a race-baiter!”
Which candidate are you referring to?
Right on.
Gotta go feed the squirrels. Back in a few.
I won’t actively work against barrack obama or for john mccain, but i do have to say of all the republicans, mccain is the least offensive, and i could’ve supported almost any one over barrack obama. i have to say i really don’t think he’s up to the office. as I democrat, i want to support him, but as an american citizen, he’s going to have to do a lot of convincing to actually earn my vote, so far from what i’ve seen, i’m not the least bit impressed, in fact, just the opposite
but again, i’m putting my money, time, and effort into ensuring a democratic majority in the senate and house and at the local level and i will be working for issues that i care about
Dakinikat @ this is a repeat of my 266, because the reference feature seems to be malfunctioning.
It seems that would be the case whether the nominee were Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. If Obama were the nominee, and you were in a swing state, say Ohio, would you vote for him?
New Siun three flights up taking Rahm to task for those who are tired of gnawing on each other down here
not at this point no, i really don’t think he’s up for the job
your not very open minded for a college professor imo
i’m first and foremost a person that uses my intellect, open-minded and empty-headed aren’t that far apart
an UNPREPARED,Illinois canidate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..c=homepage
oh that is stunning………wow
While I largely agree with this, I also think that he’s clearly very bright, I hope he’s a quick study, and I assume he would surround himself with some great advisors.
I’m not particularly optimistic about the presidential campaign. But I would so like to be completely wrong.
open minded…is OPEN to all inconveienent facts…..im really shocked at you…sigh
I have heard him off teleprompter. I listened to all the debates. He’s not a candidate I can support. He reminds me of Dubya. I don’t like the smugness or arrogance. I’ve seen him use blantantly sexist touches and words. He has no record of accomplishment in any office that he’s served in. He is supposed to be serving in an oversight capacity for the Afghanistan war. He’s never been there once. He turned down the one opportunity he had to go. He suggested they needed more arabic translators there when they do not speak arabic in that country. He had no clue about the Hanford N-site. The only bills that he has passed in either legislature are ones handed to him by senior legislators to help him along. He never voted for anything on the choice issue. He voted present. He had to be told by an aid not to vote for Roberts. His finance committee is packed with corportists of the worse sort. Everytime something goes awry, he blames his aids. He didn’t know that Oregon is not next to a great lake. He didn’t know they speak portuguese in Brazil. He has terrible judgement in associations. He got the sideyard to his houseon the cheap from an indicted rackateer. Do you want me to continue? IS this list long enough yet? Or these enough inconvenient facts for you?
Well, I guess that about says it. I’m sorry, but after the discussion, it seems like it was Hillary or nothing from the beginning. If you position is representative, at least it removes any doubt from my mind and I can quit puzzling over why Hillary Clinton and her supporters could continue to be distructive to the cause of defeating McCain in November.
He was asked a question about FARC and clearly had no idea what he was talking to. He has continually suggested meeting with leaders of hostile countries without preconditions. He’s said on one day he thinks Iran is a threat and then on the next day its not –when jewish voters where present. He said he’d meet with Castro then he said maybe not –when Cuban American voters were present … He really screwed up with the Terry Schiavo vote …
want some more inconvenient facts?
But Crosstimbers, how can you say that, when so many of Obama supporters have also said that they will not vote for Clinton in the general? How is that not equally destructive of the party?
You want to put Gore out there, Biden … any one but some one that cannot and should not be president, heck I even voted for Dukkakis …
Gosh, PLEASE put GORE out there … I’d change sides in a new york minute
I’d have supported Edwards gladly and happily
what capacity would that be?
it’s not just about hillary at this point …not to me anyway
Boy — you sure do think you know so much!! I am a sixty – something female who doesn’t fit into either of your stupid categories. I was an independent living in Florida who finally registered Democrat so I could vote in the primaries and be counted (In Florida, a voter must register in a party to vote in the primaries). So, let me see, after reliving the pain of the Florida fiasco of 2000 (HBO – Recount) — now I must live through being disenfrancised by my own Democratic Party who says “I broke the rules and voted in the primary too early”. Guess what — the voter in Florida didn’t break any rules but we are being punished and that my friend is BS.
My choice from the beginning was Edwards and then changed to Clinton. I have never supported Obama — because I do not think he is qualified. Period. I don ‘t know him, he has “little” real experince as a leader of the free world — but that is my opinion and I am entitled and I simply refuse to get on his bandwagon because everyone else does.
Now that is not saying that I will not vote for him. But I am now an independent and I will chose my vote carefully which will not be tied to any party affiliation. Don’t lump all women into two categores. It is not fact, true, or fair. That’s all I’m saying.
This is why I haven’t been able to read anything about the primaries for months now. I don’t like either of these candidates, or either of their campaigns, but the accusations and counter accusations of their supporters is driving me to drink.
I’d like us all to take a deep breath. I’ll start. And let’s remember not to make the Good be the enemy of the Perfect. Cause otherwise we’re all going to end up with the Suck.
Committee on Foreign Relations; Subcommittee on Afghanistan affairs
All I know is that if Obama picks Hillary as his VP running mate, he will lose my vote. And many other sane womens’ votes.
I am fed up with dumb Americans. Hillary on the ticket is like having any other Republican on it. Because Hillary IS the Beltway Party — just like McCain. I have waited for 20 years for Americans to wise up. They still haven’t. But it seems like many males have at least come to the conclusion that it is time to vote for the candidate who will be right for them, rather than some stupid special interest, which will never changes anyway. (Example: “The Democrats wanna take my GUNS away!”) Too many females are being wayyyyyyy too emotional — from their lies about Hillary’s actions to their threats to vote for McCain. Why not? Same thing.
lets just say,i think you are illinformed,and you think i am…im open to seeing facts
well Edwards GLADLY supports Ocama…NOT Hillary,last time i looked
Senate Foreign Relations Committee’s Subcommittee on European Affairs, which has convened no policy hearings since he took over as its chairman last January
nah, he didn’t gladly do it, believe me and sorry, i’m just not tokin on the hopium, so please talk to me in a different tone and with a little less name calling …
she’d be foolish to accept it and i believe she knows it and her presence on the ticket as second wouldn’t influence my vote anyway. i do not want to see some one ill-prepared to be president be president. I had enough of that experience with Dubya.
now if you’ll excuse me, the tone of this has gotten to a point where it’s not a useful dialogue… there’s no discourse remaining here.
have a nice day
i have called you no name,and Edwards didnt HAVE to endorse anybody,Gore didnt,so i can see NOTHING will change your closed mind,i give up
ps,anybody who thinks little boots was running things for the past 8 years,i have a tattered bridge to sell ya
It is interesting to me what passes for “experience” in American politics. Using America’s standards, Robert Byrd should be president — no election even necessary. And comparing Obama (or even anyone sane) with Bush is just obscene.
I am of the opposite view — the less time in D.C., the better. The vast majority of US Senators are embedded in the DC-money-is-everything scheme. McCain is. Hillary is. Obama is not.
Remember — to be president, there is MUCH more than having “national political experience.” Let me see — they want a president who has years of experience in DC politics AND who knows how to bowl AND who you can have a beer with.
Maybe I am too old. The first politician I remember is JFK. There is NO WAY a reporter would demand he be the type you could bowl with, or have a beer with.
1. is there such a subcommittee? i’ve never heard of this one.
2. isn’t the senate committee that oversees the war in afghanistan the armed services committee – and not the foreign relations committee?
Senate Foreign Relations Committee’s Subcommittee on European Affair
http://www.salon.com/opinion/c…..ma_europe/
My last two words on this thread: Supreme Court
http://www.politifact.com/trut…..ments/379/
good, i didn’t think there was any such subcommittee.
as for the foreign relations subcommittee on european affairs, i fail to see responsibility for oversight of the war in afghanistan within the jurisdiction of this subcommittee:
i still think the senate armed services committee, with it’s responsibility for oversight of the dod, etc is the committee with the most oversight for the war in afghanistan.
here, for example are some of the hearings the armed services committee (full committee, not a subcommittee) has held on afghanistan:
http://armed-services.senate.g…..fm?id=3079
http://armed-services.senate.g…..fm?id=3132
i think that’s a fair complaint – but it has nothing to do with afghanistan.
p.s. i’m pretty sure senator clinton didn’t even show up for the the two armed services hearings on afghanistan i linked to above.
p.p.s. when it comes to foreign policy, obama has the edge, simply because he didn’t vote the iraq war (and he didn’t vote for the odious kyl-lieberman either – although i think he should have voted against it).
You are right to be outraged, but your anger should be directed at your state politicians who moved the primary and then refused to schedule another one.
Look at it like this: Let’s say that Bob is planning on driving 80 mph to work tomorrow. The police find out about it, and they call Bob up and say, “We’re putting a big speed trap on that road, and you’re going to get a ticket if you drive faster than 55. Bob drives 80 mph anyway, and he gets pulled over and gets a ticket. Bob then complains that he shouldn’t get a ticket, because he has a valid driver’s license. The police roll their eyes, because this doesn’t make any sense. The police then offer to tear up the ticket if Bob will just get back in his car, drive home, and then come back on the same road at 55 mph. The cops will just pretend like the whole thing never happened. Bob says that’s not practical, and then he stomps his feet and throws a hissy fit for the next 3 hours, when it would have taken him 20 minutes to go home and drive back under 55. As a result, he’s late for work, misses a meeting that turns out to be far more important than anyone thought it would be, and loses his job. In you were Bob’s wife, who would you be pissed off at?
the risk to winning in November posed by an Obama candidacy are huge. Obama has big trouble in every demographic except Blacks and the very young. Winning over the rest of the population is highly unlikely – most people have already formed their opinions.
hmm not true at all. In Oregpon he gained in every demographic except white women over 50.
hmmmm plenty of the americans I have met think we speak brazilian or spanish in Brasil..so that is hardly any sort of metric to measure folks by especially when most people have no idea that portuguese is also spoken in macao/macau (china) and goa (India)
You have to be careful about that, too. It is more complicated than “Just vote for a Democrat — any Democrat.”
I can’t remember which right-wing Supreme Court justice it was — one of the last two — but Schumer voted for him. Other Democrats did, too. And New York is one of the most progressive states. If Schumer can do it, anyone can.
You must be listening to Hillary. What you said is NOT TRUE.
I still take it as a matter of faith that NO D will nominate a member of the odious Federalist Society to the SCOTUS! btw, it was Alito that schumer liked so much-Princeton guy you know, remeber the ball cap? I almost puked-but then again, Schumer is an ass.
It doesn’t matter whom Obama or McCain selects as a running mate. McCain will still have a 25-year history of voting against a woman’s right to choose. He will still be the man who over the last eight years that NARAL has released a pro-choice scorecard has received a 0 percent rating. His campaign web site will still say he believes Roe v. Wade “must be overturned.” He will still be the man who has vowed that, as president, he will be “a loyal and unswerving friend of the right to life movement”
In fact, the meeting was arranged by the woman who was introducing Obama to a group that had supported her bid for the Illinois statehouse. These were her friends and supporters that she was trying to get to support Obama’s run to replace her. It wasn’t “arranged” by Obama.
BTW that former State legislator is a Hillary delegate. Apparently she wanted to run for the House, but another candidate with better bona fides decided to run for the seat, and then she tried to get Obama to step back and not run. He refused and said that if she wanted to run in the Primary she could do so and beat him. She tried and lost.
Entitlement.
Whew, thought you were going to be the guest who never left. Have a good night.
There are two types of social engineering you can look forward to. Clintonian, domestic, columbine or Bushian, McCain, 911. Then, of cousre, there is a “change” with Obama.
i’m first and foremost a person that uses my intellect, open-minded and empty-headed aren’t that far apart
Now there’s an astonishing exercise of intellect…lol