To me, the response to Packer’s piece is far more illuminating than the actual article, which is rather banal. If "movement conservatism" has failed, as I sincerely hope it has, I’d argue that this is because too many of its proponents believed their own press and became persuaded that "movement conservatism" was ever an intellectual movement at all, as opposed to an essentially nihilist politics of vicious opportunism, where the entire goal is power for its own sake.
Packer is of course discussing the GOP’s rather bleak electoral prospects this year, especially in the House and Senate. (He pretends to believe that McCain is a new kind of "post-partisan" candidate, a common form of elite journalist wishful thinking that ignores, for openers, Hagee and Parsley.) He speaks to a number of conservative writers, like David Brooks, Ross Douthat, David Frum, and Pat Buchanan. The Brooks part has gotten the most attention, perhaps because of Brooks’ admission that "You go to Capitol Hill—Republican senators know they’re fucked," which is of course hugely entertaining. But the overall thesis is that the period of GOP dominance just may be over, because the Nixonian "Southern Strategy" as well as other mechanisms for splitting the old FDR coalition may just have finally run out of steam. Moreover, the end of the Cold War left old-school conservatives as pointless as Batman without the Joker, and ever since the Reagan administration they’ve been essentially "Happy Days Again" with Ted McGinley starring as a feckless George W. Bush and Dick Cheney acting like a superannuated Arthur Fonzarelli. (Packer doesn’t discuss the Clinton interregnum or 9/11, two pretty glaring omissions. Both probably ended up keeping movement conservatism from wheezily expiring at the end of the first Bush administration.)
Anyhow, as far as political history goes, Packer’s article is interesting, if facile; taking David Brooks at his word is funny, when it’s perfectly clear what safe haven he intends to reach as well as what sinking ship he is rapidly quitting. But like I said, the fun is in the responses to this class of stuff. Here is, for instance, Jonah Goldberg:
I agree with most folks quoted as saying that the GOP is in deep trouble and that conservatism is something of a mess these days as well. But for Packer, these terms — conservative and Republican — sometimes seem like interchangeable terms, while for me they are not. I think this may be one of the reasons why I thought the piece was so structurally flawed. He begins by arguing, asserting really, that conservatism begins with Nixon in the late 1960s, when Tricky Dick crafted a strategy of exploiting resentments, which any student of intellectual conservatism knows is simply wrong. Nixon did not like or trust the Buckleyites and the Buckleyites were hardly wild about Dick either. This fact should help one keep in mind that treating conservatism and the modern GOP as interchangeable is an analytical error of the first order.
This is absurd. Buckley may not have liked Nixon, but so what? If you want to argue that Buckley was not all about the exploitation of racial, social, and cultural divisions, be my fucking guest. And if you wish to argue that "intellectual conservatism," whatever the fuck that is when it’s at home, stands in sharp contradistinction to Nixon’s legacy — uh, no. The historical record would be rather different were there ever a "principled conservative" opposition to Nixon. Or to George W. Bush, for that matter. Serious intellectual movements are less agile with ex post facto rationalizations for egregious anti-democratic behavior.
After all, what are these deep and profound "intellectual principles" that have been so basely betrayed by the 21st century GOP? Well, here’s the noted dope Michael Goldfarb to explain it:
American conservatism has a set of core principles that includes a belief in free markets, free people, and in the greatness of the American people and the American nation. Those principles are timeless. They are also pure and, in the eyes of conservatives, true.
Oh. Well, these principles are also, in the eyes of people who aren’t morons, fatuous slogans and overripe bullshit. Goldfarb adduces the farm bill as an instance of why conservatism has found itself in its current plight, but this is silly — if Reagan confronted pandering agricultural policy, history fails to record it. And if the current crisis of conservatism is reflected in the GOP’s poor electoral prospects, well, why do you think the farm bill got passed, and how many favors does Bush give downticket GOP candidates in rejecting it? I mean, please.
But beyond that, this is conservatism? "America is great!" That’s it?
Well, here’s Andy Sullivan:
Conservatism is not, to my mind, about solving problems, which is why Burke remains a very problematic governing philosophy for modern Americans. It is about a modesty toward what problems government can ever solve. Its responses to emergent questions will not be an attempt to "solve" them, but to ameliorate them with a narrow set of tools. And the narrower the better.
Right. So conservatism, in short, is about wanking. Governments fuck up a lot, especially if you don’t like governments. And that’s it? Well, congratulations. You can see why any government elected on a platform of self-contempt would have trouble perpetuating itself. Of course, in reality, "conservative" politicians are not immune to the blandishments of power, as history rather spectacularly teaches us.
The real problem with "movement conservatism" is that it is reactive and deluded. Global warming is real. The Iraq war was a grotesque mistake. The mainstream media are not Democratic partisans. Gay marriage is not going to destroy America. And so on.
The real problem with "movement conservatism" is that the only people left who believe in it are completely crazy idiots.
And that’s all she wrote.
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“Republicans run for office on the grounds that government is incompetent. Then they get elected to prove it.”
- PJ O’Rourke, “GOP” humorist
Conservativism is about doin nothin cause according to the “philosophy” doin anything is – while sometimes fruitful- always evil.
It’s a fuckin morality play.
Waaaaaaaah.
The only thing goopers are allowed to do is to invade other countries and to fuck with the tax code. Faced with any problem- five hundred goopers meet and try to figure out how to fuck with the tax code to solve it (if it can’t be invaded that is).
Evening mah folks.
that’s fine crap you wrote, thers.
I’ve had practice.
The only kind of fuckin with the tax code that’s allowed in problem solving- of course- is LOWERING taxes- mostly on the rich cause God loves em so much. Why the fuck else would they be rich
why did job get them boils?
If God loved you- you wouldn’t be sittin there in yer production built home eatin chicken.
is this a nice way of saying they are batshit crazy and so is the horse they rode in on.
Yeah, and “lowering taxes” isn’t exactly High Philosophy.
That was nice?
I’m losing my touch…
I am always baffled by the term “movement conservativism”…does it refer to a bowel problem?
I’ve joked occasionally that, rather than making government so small it could be drowned in a bathtub, the Republican goal is to make it so stupid it will drown on its own.
You’ve added some background to the joke, Thers.
well, you didn’t use any swear words
They’re certainly a pain in my ass.
My dad’s one of those Conservative-Americans, fortunately it wasn’t contagious (Though I did go through a Libertarian phase). Though it is fun getting him riled up. “So what if single payer healthcare is socialism, it works.” Can earn me a good half hour non-sensical tirade on the evils of socialism. If nothing else, conservatives provide vast amounts of entertainment, so long as they’re away from the levers of power.
Did ya all know that Rachel Ray is a terrorist-sympathizing threat?
Dunkin Dumbasses
Another example of the wingnuts ideas
so you’re a movement conservative? Eat some prunes!
Does he mind socialism when he’s on the interstate?
Are you up here LS?
or getting his socialism security check?
The meaning of “movement conservatism” is a bit controversial, but I take it to refer to a discrete social and ideological formation, IOW, the self-identified “conservatives” of NR & then NRO, and all sorts of affiliated institutions & personalities.
They think they’re going to change the face of the nation, by “restoring” it to some mythological conservative roots. They won’t be happy until America is one big, non-stop Leave it to Beaver episode.
Every time I think I couldn’t possibly be shocked by these guys again …
The collapsing interstate bridge doesn’t give a flying shit how much money you got if you’re traversing it when it fails.
FUCK!
exactly my forking point thers
Oh, he despises all forms of socialism, even though he has a government job, which could easily be performed by private industry (Where he worked actually had to bid against private contractors, the government bidding against private industry!) Consistency and intellectual honesty aren’t traits often found in conservatives.
*lots of swear words flying around my house* i just pinched my right ring finger (and nail) in a bifold door.
Jesus Loves Me
Couldn’t resist.
Oh….man that hurts….. Ice…. quick put that bag of frozen peas on that finger….
Ow! I hate it when I do things like that.
((((Suzanne))))
Thers, I don’t dare read this!….
This comment was at Ian’s I just reworked it
Ideology seems to me to be ideas that may or may not hold a basis in fact but are accepted on well Faith is as a good a word as any despite evidence to the contrary this is an idea to explore further.
Are we the Left with less illusions because several years of GOP rule have forced us to abandon anything that really does not work?
Is Bush so bad because he has never been told No? Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely Lord Action.
Is Ideology just bad code that got into the system even if it turns out to be right. Is the problem ideas accepted as true for some reason without facts?
Do our desires form reasons for what we wish were to be?
Do we need to defrag our systems every now and then by loosing power?
Balance has been restored.
Whew.
Close call.
Owww!
Oh, he thinks social security’s a big scam, though he’ll have no problem drawing from it, same goes for his taxpayer funded paychecks though. And his taxypayer funded healthcare.
Geez, Thers, tell it like it is why doncha. Great post.
Owwww….
Bowl of water with ice cubes in it… :(
thers always dishes up the finest crap
So much for going for that bowl of ice cream….. thanks for the diet help there Suz…
sorry ma’am
if we are real chatty, it will scroll up the page and you can ice cream without negative side effects
Gets complicated knowin what’s socialism and what ain’t…public libraries are definately socialism.
I figure everyone should have to buy their own fuckin roads- sharin em is fuckin Socialism!
We used ta have potluck dinners- but the goopers in the neighborhood figured they was socialism- so now we all stay home an watch teevee.
I’m sorry…..but that’s funny. Shame on me.
How about public schools? Police departments? I suppose any government service could be provided by a private entity.
Shit we got PARKS in this town that ANYBODY can go sit in- even if they don’t pay TAXES- what the fuck’s up with that- some of em ain’t even AMERICANS.
I didn’t dare write it, to be fair.
It oughta be illegal ta go ta an american park and not speak american.
The real problem with “movement conservatism” is that the only people left who believe in it are completely crazy idiots.
The other problem is that there are a lot of these idiots, perhaps 20% of Americans.
I think I will haul more R-30 insulation up the stairs …… and maybe that ice cream is calling my name…
Ouch.
This is why it’s always a bad idea to go through doors. Conservatives never go through doors. They just toss grenades. It’s you own fault.
T’anks.
Hey Suzanne….. that bill to arm students in classrooms died a very nice death in the Arizona state senate……
Ya mean it isn’t?
But not any two of them would give you the same definition of conservatism. They truly do not know what it means. I have asked so many people “why are you a Republican” and they cannot tell you why. They say “well, I just am.”
Are GOP ideas driven by desire is their Ideology a way to justify grabbing even more wealth while others starve, does their wish fulfillment seek to excuse doing unfair things to get rich?
Notice that Warren Buffet and George Soros actually try and use their cash to help people while Bush, Darth and the Neocons seem to think that you deserve what you get if your poor. Blame the victim to make yourself feel good philosophy?
Maybe the GOP is out of ideas because they have gotten with Bush all the power they wanted? Granted they are not using it well or finding that power to be as fun as they thought it would be. Power is responsibility its work if you want to sustain the power that is.
Persian curse may your every desire be fulfilled instantly?
Hey- look at this movement conservatives- yer conservative seats are showin lots of movement- toward the DARK SIDE!
SENATE RATINGS CHANGES
MS-B Wicker Likely Rep to Toss Up
NC Dole Solid Rep to Likely Rep
MS-B SEN: According to Senior Editor Jennifer Duffy, Republicans may have to fight to hold on to a seat in the Deep South. “A competitive Senate race in Mississippi? In a presidential year? Really? As crazy as it sounds, a new poll does indeed show that appointed GOP Sen. Roger Wicker will have a fight on his hands in his bid to complete the remainder of former Sen. Trent Lott’s term.” Read more here.
NC SEN: Duffy writes that Democrats have put the race in North Carolina in their sights. “In their effort to put more Senate races in play, Democrats have turned their attention to North Carolina and GOP incumbent Elizabeth Dole.” Read more here.
House Editor David Wasserman takes a look at the past week’s developments in the House here.
· House Ratings Changes:
OR-05 – OPEN (Hooley) Toss Up to Lean Democratic
Fond farewells to another bad idea from the people who brought you supply-side “economics.”
Damn, now I can’t take my M-60 to school.
woohoo katymine :)
Paul Weyrich once stated how radical movement conservatives really are:
“We are different from previous generations of conservatives. We are no longer working to preserve the status quo. We are radicals, working to overturn the present power structure of this country.”
Sure would be a boo-hooer if ol Libby lost her seat eh?
sorry, they say one resorts to training in a crisis.. my training involved well placed kicks to open doors
To something like the Fuhrerprinzip?
Libby keeps pattin her ass with both hands- just ta make sure that her “seat” is still there.
They are the Roman Senate led by Brutus. Newt led the movement but where does it go now?
Yes, that’s more or less what I was referring to, the 20% or so that have authoritarian personalities.
Well, yeah.
They’re fundamentalist radical lunatics.
You been drinkin’ this evening?
Of course- haven’t you?
dugg
You are obviously not cut out to be a conservative, then. If you have even a minor problem, use all available resources — your refrigerator door sticks a bit? Take a flamethrower to it! Freedom demands it!
You have much to learn.
Some Grade A snark:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsme….._unpreced/
A shout-out to Jane Hamsher ta boot.
Try diplomacy first- YELL at the fuckin thing!
*sigh*
guess i didn’t become a good lifelong republican and instead became one of them progressive ones
Ohhhhh…..yea.
Flamethrower? Bah, that’s for wimps! Now, an axe, that’s the way to deal with a balky kitchen appliance. It’s much more personal.
[Safety note: Be sure to unplug any electrical device before applying an axe to it. Injuries and embarrassment may result from failing to follow this procedure.]
I’m sure I’m the trillionth person to point this out, but the rise of modern conservatism mirrored the rise of television.
yeah, its real embarrassing when the firefighters, paramedics and cops are laughing as you are explaining how ya got hurt
So, either follow the prescribed procedures or have a good cover story ready. ;)
I saw it this morning but it was during the Pull up a chair goes south thread and then forgot about it….
ya just gotta time the telling so they don’t drop the gurney
Well, here’s Andy Sullivan:
Conservatism is not, to my mind, about solving problems, which is why Burke remains a very problematic governing philosophy for modern Americans. It is about a modesty toward what problems government can ever solve. Its responses to emergent questions will not be an attempt to “solve” them, but to ameliorate them with a narrow set of tools. And the narrower the better.
Conservatism is about putting the breaks on the middle class so that the Elites can keep on racing ahead. The Elites have the cash society can be better if a societie’s cash was used to help people.
At what point though does the desire to better yourself by working hard get turned off by heavy taxes? At what point do the rich by not spending to better society cause a society to standstill, stagnate, or even fail?
Different circumstances at different times suggest differing levels of investment is needed.
But thanks to Bush’s war we know that right now taxes will go higher or the Dollar will keep dropping which is something that I am quite sure the rich do not want!
We the Left warned them we are not going to pay for Bush’s war Bush’s base the Economic Elites stole Bush two election so they can pay for their own mistakes.
It’s not too late to try to obtain a nuclear weapon. What American household is complete without a nuclear weapon?
Nah, the neocons just read too much Ayn Rand. They started to think they were really special (toned in church lady snark.)
We re-named it Put Down That Chair [h/t crosstimbers]
beats bringing a knife to a gun fight for sure
Boy, talk about goin’ south in a hurry. Really pissed me off. I always enjoy that thread on Sat morning and a couple trolls turned it into a disaster.
There’s another concurrent – and possibly related – trend, which was cleverly illustrated by Amused Muse (scroll down a bit).
Interesting article, by the way.
Or a samurai sword to a butter dish…
{{{{{{{{{{{egregious}}}}}}}}}}
Kept trying to pull it back on track but well those who were there know…
If I might hazard…
We turned it into a disaster by taking the bait.
You can get a little packpack with a 2.5KT yield. Shouldn’t bother folks more than a couple miles away. When I worked NucWeaps we jokingly tried to design a device to rid lawns of gophers without breaking any windows in the neighborhood.
there is a reason we advise not feeding the trolls
Been shopping for some surface to air missiles but can’t find them in just the right color….. the alternative is just finding some centrifuges and making my own… AZ is big on uranium ore….. just within view of the Grand Canyon too…
Exactly.
Look for the widespread distribution of tactical household nukes to be a central plank in the McCain platform.
like in caddyshack?
I wasn’t gonna say anything about that. I was hopin’ those that did would catch themselves at some point. A lot didn’t.
Are you a new guy in town? Welcome!
Explain to me again the difference between the old kind of conservatism and the nuke kind of conservatism?
Well, here’s Andy Sullivan:
Conservatism is not, to my mind, about solving problems, which is why Burke remains a very problematic governing philosophy for modern Americans. It is about a modesty toward what problems government can ever solve. Its responses to emergent questions will not be an attempt to “solve” them, but to ameliorate them with a narrow set of tools. And the narrower the better.
Conservatism is the idea that the rich need the poor to bail them out by forcing the Federal Reserve to accept subprime loans as collateral at face value before the Real Estate market collapsed.
Which drives down the value of all of our Dollars and raises the price of Gas,oil, wheat, rice etc but the banks thank God are solvent enough to try and force people out of their homes.
Conservatism is mercy for me not for thee.
I felt bad that I wasn’t there in real-time. And was grateful at the same time.
Details?
In my experience, conservatives are intellectually lazy people who don’t want to think.
I’m sure we can find a contractor who can do a conversion to your favorite FS color. We have just about every shade of green available.
I found alot of the conservatism/Republicanism was about self righteousness and the willingness to crow and happily shove peoples faces in shit.
Now that the GOP Express has gone off the rails a lot of my GOP friends don’t want to talk politics anymore.
-G
It was impossible.
Juno.
In my experience, they think quite a bit, but don’t examine their assumptions too closely. Which is to say, they never bother.
Certainly. The distinction is in the difference between the spelling of “old” and the spelling of “new.”
The affliction know as modern-day Republicanism will always lead to implosion.
Economic Darwinism is simply unsustainable in theory or in practice. Government should never be ”run like a business.” Corporations by law are supposed ”maximize profits.” Funny, I don’t see any mention of this in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.
What IS built into the Constitution is checks and balances. Yin yang – ancient stuff here. Liberals seek to find the right balance point between the profit motive and the people motive.
A modern day Republican puts the pursuit of profits above the pursuit life, libery, and happiness. Will always lead to disaster since fewer and fewer will reap the rewards with each new generation.
Now where’s my beer dammit!
Yes, too bad OT got lost — I had to leave.
What I thought. It started so nicely…
nothing can hijack a thread faster than a concern troll who gets fed
We had the idea long before the movie. It was purely high tech. Low radiation, small blast wave, the whole nine yards. The window breakage was the big problem. Never did get it worked out.
Amen.
I just visited my folks on vacation at Lake Winnepesaukee. The local free paper had some great op-ed diversity. It covered both the right and the far right, Michelle Malkin and Ollie North.
-G
It was fugly.
bill murray had his share of problems working out just the right mix
But people do try to keep it right for the poster, and I appreciate their effort.
OK, I is sleepy. Laters, my friends. Thanks again for listening to my ravings.
Why should they think when they have FAUX to do their thinking for them. Lazy indeed.
No David Brooks? Too bad there’s no Fairness Doctrine.
Thers!
LOVE it.
Thers!
Good night!
sleep well thers.
My definition of the current crop of the wingers…….. they have a fixed world view….. where they got who knows….. their home school drummed into them …. who knows….. but it is fixed AND they change to facts to justify their world view….. actually they don’t use facts, they use talking points they got from someone else…
Thanks for raving them, Thers.
Freedom of the Press.
Facts change Desire remains the same.
Good night. Thanks, Thers.
I hope I made a point on the following thread. Once I saw that person trying again it was all I could do to keep from going ballistic. Seemed to work for the rest of the day, though. We’ll see.
Sigh, I am tired of this merde. Hi SouthernDragon!
In theory, theory and practice are one. In practice, they’re not.
the best response is not to respond at all. negative attention is better (in trolls eyes) than no attention at all. the way to stop it is to not feed and not to respond to them at all.
Hi Christine.
Economic Darwinism is a bunch of germs eating everything as fast as they can until all the food is gone. Leftys believe that we can live better and longer by moderating our hunger to what the ecosystem can replenish.
How are your tigers?
Good point. Reality check from wigwam. Somebody, make a copy of this!
van de Snepscheut. A favorite saying.
neocons are future darwin award winners
I didn’t respond. Weeks ago I asked if s/he had any real issues s/he wanted to discuss and the response was “Nope.” I’ve never responded since. I just put out a general comment not to feed etc and why. Got a fairly angry response from that person though. Then nothing else the rest of the day.
Not only fucking brilliant, but when said to your garden-variety Gooper-Flack, leaves them drooling.
On a GMO post, we had a (never seen before/since) commenter purportedly advocating for “do-it-yourself” genetic modifications.
I shoulda offered him home atomics.
hey doc
I don’t know. They have seem to have the ability to reproduce at will.
Nahh. Phasers. Limited path of destruction, second shot without reloading. They’re way better.
So spankin ‘em doesn’t work?
Carp. I keep gathering data (though with decreasing frequency) trying to disprove that hypothesis.
Anyway, hope your digit is feeling better.
(oh and sorry for fromal jammies – leaving em on for the eralier post’s “handle”)
Tigers is all fine, thank you. Min, my 19 year old blind princess, has changed her behaviour quite a bit since Yang’s death. She’d known Yang all of Yang’s life and is now constantly craving attention. Wants to lay in front of the monitor, which she’s never wanted to do before. Follows me around. Settles in my lap or at my feet. Much more active. I think all of them knew Yang was more seriously ill than I or the vet knew. They are so smart and intuitive.
digit is sore but still types (!)
your mccain medical record posts are great kirk. i learn so much reading them.
I’m here now.
My almost 17 year old Elvis is failing. But he has taken to sitting next to me as I type, and extends a paw to my arm, kind of like “hey, I’m here, pet me.” If I give him a nice neck squeeze, he folds into my hip and purrs.
(((Elvis)))
(((Christine)))
and thanks, Suz!
to answer your question…. I feel back to my old self except 20lbs up…. working on that…
Leave for my trip on June 26th…. Paris x 4 days….. drive around France & northern Italy… Fly out of Milan Italy on July 9th…. to Crete…. Fly home on July 19…
Both of my cats developed that habit at one time or another. It’s kinda spooky, having a cat poke you like that.
i have similar worries with my beloved Mastiff, Arthur. He’s 9…old for a mastiff. Little things. My heart gets squeezed a little at a time.
Is this a tour, or just a lot of visits?
Gigi, 13, does that. Have to keep her claws trimmed cuz she doesn’t pat, she pulls.
Failing in that certain way? Sorry Chris.
That is going to be outstanding!!! Yay!!
Dear Dr. Kirk,
You are so wise! And love your posts. I learn so much.
Talk about eye contact…
*as we all give our littlest family members hugs and squeezes at the thought*
The NYT’s Ad Nags is running the GOP-ers in dissarray story with the added oomph of John McCain’s campaign spiraling into oblivion.
It is becoming conventional wisdom that the GOP is in flames and ready to hit tarmac.
The humanity.
-G
Miss Dog my beagle buddy was diagnosed with end stage heart failure just before my trip to Greece last summer….. she is on Aminophylline pills and some days I have to be mean and not take her for a walk because she gets short of breath…… Next Saturday she will be 14…
thanks Christine – but Thers’ posts leave me howling. I frightened the cats again tonight.
i’ve got ad nags story ready for the news que
gotta love it when the nytimes smells blood in the water – have ya checked out their editorial page for tomorrow?
love the taking down of hojo
So true…and when someone goes, don’t neglect the ones that are still here…still loving…follow the love…we only have now.
I love his writing, thanks Bonkers!
No tour…. we don’t do tours….. this will be Elmore’s third or 4th trip to France….. we are working out the route…. booking the travel…. anyone who wants to book hotels in Europe ….booking.com website is really good… booked the ferry trip everything via the internet….. works like a charm..
Your trip sounds wonderful! We love France, and after living in Paris for a year, we can’t stay away. BUT, I’ve never been to Italy, or Greece.
hope they get out from underneath before the Graf GOP gets overhead.
katymine, i’m traveling vicariously through ya… and am looking forward to more fantabulous pictures
They’re down, maybe, but not out. At least, they’re not if Chris Bowers’ latest electoral map is to be believed.
Just skimmed the thread. Simply amazing how long that person has been allowed to hijack threads. How many comments within that one thread alone!?!
They offer literally nothing of substance, just the same circular and hypocritical logic over and over again. At the same time, someone like Pete Pierce gets shoved outta here, even though he offered incredible amounts of “proof” for his assertions. I still use a link he provided months ago, which details how Barack’s legislative accomplishments in two years dwarf Hillary’s in six years, when people accuse Obama of being just an empty suit that can only give speeches.
Perhaps today could be the last straw (man) in allowing this person to sully the FDL threads?
kirk at 152–since you’re leavin’ the formal handle on, then i’m gonna say i left you a few in the last thread….pick one…..and you know what it took to do that….balls of stainless steel, no, platinum….so, go back and answer some questions….genuinely felt ones. at least the last one. that is the one that most concerns me.
and suzanne–your digits’ tips release substance p, that releases lactic acid, which makes healthy muscles, so, keep those digits workin’………
and i’ve been gone this week for many reasons, i’m being circumspect and have gotten back way more in my life that i ever gave this week, i have been completely overwhelmed in the way that only happens only once in a lifetime, i am speechless……….so, this is my statement of the month of what we need to do–more love……..mine that i gave unwittingly, unafraid, unadulterated, without question, without strings for my entire life came back to me tenfold this week….it happens…it comes back…it did……so, give it. just give.
dixie chicks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BBDpvPbdjc
those that think this was ot and sappy can kiss my lucky ass……
Sullying a thread is a community responsibility.
When the community gives food and water and air to a “visitor” intent on hijacking a thread, they have no one to blame but themselves.
Think I’ll wait until after I’ve read the comics in the morning before I tackle the Times online. Give me something to look forward to.
And who knows…. I can check in on late nite right around breakfast time… and yes there will be a kazillion pictures…
Sorry, this was meant for Katymine.
If ya got the time, I recommend reading through the comments as well. He takes on the trolls with comic results. Good stuff!
yeah!
Oh, this person will return, have no doubt. Addicted to attention seeking.
Well, I think that Bowers is doins some fine cherry picking. There’s a recent slate of polls showing Obama doing fine.
Not that Bowers has an agenda to make Obama look as unelectable as possible.
But let’s not get into that fight.
I’d rather bash the GOP.
-G
I didn’t and don’t know what happened to PeterPierce. I got a bit rough with him on occasion but ultimately wound up favoring Obama, myself.
I had one argument with Peter that still haunts me a bit. He was making some claim that the Clintons were going to cheat and try to change the rules to steal the election from Obama. I challenged him on that, and said that he had no proof that that in fact was on the Clinton’s minds. His comeback was unconvincing, but exactly what he predicted is now coming to pass.
so why give that person what they want?
boy the Phoenix peace activists are persistent….. they tracked down the “private” places that the McCain fund raiser was moved to….. and they are going there…… this is going to be good….
Gee in just a few hours I have 50 new emails about the event & planning..
For the record, I’d just like to say that “making a few good points”, or “knowing a few things” isn’t the trolls salvation.
It’s the hook.
bwa-hahahahaha
rubbing hands together gleefully – i am so looking forward to the coverage of this by the az tv stations
Ooooo…tasty.
I haven’t and won’t. That person will appear on the threads again and it’s up to each individual not to respond to the nonsense.
Yes, but I’ve seen others get called out by this site’s leaders within threads, and eventually kicked out, even though personally I thought it was unwarranted. At the same time, this person we’re discussing has been doing the same thing now for months.
Seems to me it’s been dependent on each commenters candidate of choice, which has been disappointing to me. Of course, I’m here occasionally and this might be an inaccurate assesment on my part, but so far this is how I’ve felt about it. Don’t how someone could look through this morning’s thread and not think something should be done though.
Far out. I was wondering if they were gonna do that. I didn’t think it would be too hard to figure out where the fundraisers were going to be. Far out!!!
sometimes, all we have control over is our response
i can assure you that it has absolutely nothing to do with the candidate supported.
fdl has maintained a neutral primary stance on purpose – fdl will support the d candidate, whomever that sorts out to be.
ola pups
great news about the protesters finding out where those turds are gathering, katy.
It’s all I have control over. Hell, I can’t even get my tigers to answer the phone. How hard can that be, for cryin’ out loud.
Sometimes those labeled “trolls” are just people who are troubled and have immovable ideas. Just sayin’.
FORK.. i forgot to start the popcorn for late late nite
Konichiwah, Wobbs.
NOOOOOOOO!!!!
Please keep us informed:)
thank you for the welcome *g*
*muttering 7 words ya can’t say on tv)…. dayamit, who unplugged the popcorn machine…go ahead and start the movie and i’ll be there in a minute
Lake Night At The Movies: Baby Bottleneck – Good Morning Vietnam is upstairs!
PROTEST BUSH IN MESA
at
Defense Contractor Silverado Cable Company
this Tuesday, May 27th
2:00 – 4:00 p.m. corner of 1st Avenue and Dobson Rd. (south of Main Street and Dobson Road) in Mesa
~very interesting ….
Damn, great flick and my lids are trying to check for leaks on their own. Guess I gotta go help ‘em. Sayonara.
Peace Love Light.
Which is why I love FDL.
RIP Dick Martin.
-G
True, but I think Suzanne’s point still holds. You can choose to respond or not respond. I try to not respond if I’m inclined to be rude or short with someone and I’ve already made whatever point I want to make. Don’t always manage, mind you, but I try. It’s really not worth the bile buildup to deal with them.
Oh no!
Rest in peace. Good night Dick.
Goodnight, SouthernDragon.
There are invisible lines that get crossed. For example, IIRC, PeterPierce had a habit of referring to Senator Clinton as “Hillary girl.”
This site was founded by feminists, one of whom confronted Peter on that habit and suggested that Senator Obama would not appreciate being called “boy.” I don’t recall Peter’s response, but I got that impression that he had not convinced that founder of this blog that he “got it.” (But I won’t vouch for my memory of those details.)
Since the time I stopped seeing him here, I have seen him at Marcy’s blog, with his same insightful comments. So, I hope that once Obama is elected, Peter can make a triupmphal return. I, for one, miss him.
While I was on the road, and thus had cable I was watching a bio of Goldie Hawn for a little while. They had some of her Laugh In skits on it. Hadn’t seen that stuff in decades.
Goodnight, Dick.
boa noite sd
Goodnight, Dick.
Pete is often at Emptywheel’s shop. A very intelligent guy. Amazing how he can provide such brilliant commentary and provide links to prove his point.
I got into a fight with him once too. Lost.
Good luck with that on people like Raven and Norske Flamethrower.
I noticed a comment (or two) in this morning’s thread where a regular commenter said they’d be withholding Blue America money since they were going to start going elsewhere. It’s sad they’d let a petty squabble come to that, but I really wonder how much this particular thread-jacker has ever given to BA or FDL.
I must say, after the 3rd or 4th time I was scolded, called “schoolyard,” and told to provide links even though my comments which were quoted had those exact links, and these Hillary threadjackers were allowed day after day, month after month now, to take threads off topic without any backing material whatsoever, I started to think there was some bias.
Ironically, several of my points back then are now considered common knowledge, like Hillary’s tendency to use dog whistle tactics, Team Clinton’s use and cooperation with Drudge Report, and the fact that the Clintons don’t care a lick for the DemocratIC Party.
Anyway, we now have a Dem nominee, so letting by-gones be by-gones, and all that jazz.
Christy did say she voted for Obama. Made me proud. Wish we could have do-overs in California.
The controversial topic that was soon joined by broader opinions of the candidates and unpleasant personal exchanges was actually introduced innocently enough here.
suzanne at 198-sometimes, all we have control over is our response
yep, i just learned that again, this time it will be my best, and let it be my best. let it be honest.
oh, i wish everyone would get this……..now……really.
dixie chicks-more love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BBDpvPbdjc
and even more personal makes me cry song–
swing me up into the wild blue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hntXAO_Rq7c
I don’t exactly know whether I lost, since I didn’t contradict his predictions. But, if I had anything to do with driving him away from FDL, I sure as hell lost. He was definitely someone who believed in backing argument with evidence, and I appreciated that.
Ah. Don’t know about that, but could see that happening I suppose. Gotta pick yer battles wisely.
I realize I could be unfair with some of this criticism, but throwing it out there as customer feedback, since I’ve donated money to FDL and want to see it thrive, and it’s been annoying to see a handful of people shit in the pool, over and over again. Anyway, wanna keep the eye on the prize!
The term troll as frequently used at this site does need to be revisited. The reader forming an opinion of the place certainly can get the impression that a troll here is a dissenter from the most widely held opinions, or a backer of the least popular candidate (who may have changed, both among members and among administrators).
So, here we go again:
– There are 290 uncommitted delegates
– Obama needs 53 to reach the magic number of 2025
– Clinton needs 245, which means that if Obama gets even 46 more, she stands no chance of getting to 2025.
– On June 1 and June 3, PR, SD, and MT have primaries that will allocate most of their 110 delegates.
IMHO, it’ll all be over by June 4, except for the PeterPierce-predicted efforts by the Clintons to change the rules after the fact to their own advantage.
Dood, I was reasonably harsh with Juno earlier today, sort of like I used to be with Peter. Shit! Maybe I’m a just a jerk.
kirk, you gonna address my question about the combining of the mind and emotion in your post? really wish you would.
oh, c’mon, go there. it’s a good place. ’trust me’….bet you haven’t been asked a question with such knowledge and insight in a long time……
-=======
i left this place in october, back in february, around there…..it wasn’t the same place…..not at all…..indignation, anger, intolerance, impatience……..wasn’t here before….is now.
i have a name for it amongst my friends, the pack of hyenas….not a good term.
what are you gonna do about it? i have tried, one night i posted questions i had about obama and got socked in the gut, hard……by two front page posters…….
i got pissed..before that…almost left. twice.
i’m gonna blow my own horn, i am someone that is known for my insights and intellect…i never have ’crap’ fights….ever….yet i reduced myself to cuss words and flinging in defense of myself….what the hell has happened here that someone like me resorted to that? oh, i worry about that more than i should, and more than the people in charge do, cuz they didn’t even bother to write me back about it….in spite of my shitty letter, that worried me a lot……i actually care about this place, i actually contribute money to blue america…but if i fall away, so do my links, so do my concerns, so do all of the people that i pass all of that on to…..all gone…..and what for? cuz of a few shitty people???????? dang, ok, if that’s ok with you all, that can happen…..ain’t ok with me at all. but i’ve got other irons in the fire, so, i’ll always find a place to make it happen.
when are people gonna realize that we are all a part of each other?
the part that doesn’t want to do the dishes, the other does……the part that wants to remember birthdays and doesn’t, the other part does…..
the part that is afraid, the other part comforts…
the part that wants to react in anger, reminds that the other part that they are kind and needs to be protected.
this past week my friends have once again for the thousanth time asked me what i am doing spending time on a blog on the internet when i already have time allotted in my own community that is valued and that the internet time has taken away from that……
i said it matters…..that the things i do here i was trying to get people to write more letters and make more phone calls……
they named off things i have done here at home……that was more a/effective………they’re right ya know? they are.
i don’t say what i do. i like it that way……you never know who you’re dealing with on the internet….think about that one.
this used to be a place where everyone was welcome, it isn’t anymore……..look at all of the names that are gone now……..what kind of minds have been turned away? ewwwwwwwww that’s scary to me……..
we have no idea who each other is on this blog…..no idea…….and yet you flap away and swat at people like it’s nuthin.
no idea who you’re turnin’ away.
Maybe it’s your “special purpose…”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mAn…..re=related
and call what i’m sayin’ off topic or not something you want to read, but unless you realize what is going on here and do nothing to change it, it will be another esoteric wing of something that COULD have happened and didn’t because of the same intolerance that you wanted to fight in the first place…..
i can’t believe how many people are sitting back and watching this and saying nothing…..where the hell are ya? oh well, i’m steppin’ up to it, stay the hell silent.
you gonna let this happen?????? bullshit. (i’m hearing all those who are saying ’what problem’? that ok with you?)
i’m just another canary in the mine…….
what a loss.
man, i wish i was more articulate………..this really IS my LAST ditch attempt to make people put aside their agendas and hold the hand next to them……..can you do that? i can. i will.
song of the week; dixie chicks-more love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BBDpvPbdjc
song of the month; johnny cash-what is truth
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qO5z2xUNUpU
You had questions about Obama. I’ve drifted away from here somewhat for what I perceived as a slight Clinton bias, or at least a “they both suck” mentality when I think one is far superior than the other.
Shows how difficult it can be to herd cats, as the FDL management has had to do through this primary season. Not really sure there’s much more they could do without coming down hard on one side or the other. Compared to other blogs I’ve looked at, they’ve done a masterful job here of letting different sides speak their minds.
As they get a bigger audience, the tightrope walk only gets more difficult, and the chances of offending thin-skinned people goes up exponentially. The FDL management has done as well as can be expected IMO.
I agree completely.
Also, IMHO, overly avid proponents for one candidate or another are tolerated up to a certain level, and then various folks indicate gently, or not so, that a degree of harmony would be appreciated. Mostly things don’t need to go further.
thanks bonkers for addressing my concerns, i used the phrase ’herding cats’ the other night and it was slammed and dunked in my face with a vengeance. by someone who should have known better.
i have prided myself in being a thoughtful and prepared commenter, and was so pissed last week at how i was treated that i sent reactive emails all over the damn place with cusx words and all…..first time in my entire life….and was treated as a pariah…not one response back from anyone from fdl, not one……not used to that. don’t like it much. made me think. and after i thought, i thought, how much did that matter in what i was doing anyway? well, had to wonder.
then, right after that, about every person i’ve ever helped showed up at my door and it all seemed a little irrelevant and petty…,….gee, compare what i’ve said here that was misinterpreted and what i have actually done in my life that showed up at my door….made me feel a little superior in the argument. well, it did, have to watch that pride thing.
but i realized that the things i have actually built noone here has a clue…….so, take me the wrong way, belittle actual questions i had that i felt had a need to be answered about obama, and got missled for it…..so be it.
intellectual conversation used to be ok here, i feel it is no longer a place where it is safe…..i cannot say how much that saddens me…….i know this is all epu’d, oh well….it is what i feel to be true….so sad to say that, i don’t know what else to say that i haven’t already.
we don’t know who each other is here, and if we did, we wouldn’t be so ready to dismiss and be so harsh with our comments…..big mistake. big loss. i know of a few i referred here that i watched get chased off…one was an award winning journalist…….chased off by vitriol….how’s that helping anyone?
i said oh well, and tried to excuse it, but i can no longer do that and no longer be a part of it…nope…
so, thanks for the response, i hope i answered it with the same conscientiousness that you offered.
you’ve often been a fly up my ass in the comments lately and it amused me that you were the one that opened the door to dialogue about what needs to happen…
that’s the way it should be, isn’t it? that i talked about earlier.
huge kiss and hug and we will meet again in the tubes.
bet on it.
fuck it, i’m submitting this without reading it again, it’s gotten to the point i don’t think anyone reviews what they say anyway, why should i? and when i have gotten to that point, i don’t need to comment here anymore.