People have been trying to push me out of this ever since Iowa.
(…)
I find it curious. Because it is unprecedented in history. I don’t understand it. Between my opponent and his camp and some in the media there has been this urgency to end this. And historically, that makes no sense. So I find it a bit of a mystery.
(…)
My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right?
We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California. I don’t understand it. There’s lots of speculation about why it is.
So, what on earth did Hillary mean by that??? I can only think of three interpretations:
1) Her official version, that she was using RFK’s assassination as a chronological reference point, because it was a memorable event that took place during a meaningful June primary – illustrating the point that June primaries have historically been meaningful. I can understand that, up to a point, because my memory works much the same way, but I’m amazed that she would make such a terrible choice. If meaningful June primaries are such a historical commonplace, surely she could come up with a better, less tragic example?
Also, as Keith Olbermann points out in his furious Special Comment, not only has she referenced RFK’s assassination before, but there is evidence that she was warned away from it — or at the very least, that she knows how to talk about the June ’68 primaries without mentioning it.
2) She was signaling primary voters and superdelegates to pick her because she’s less likely to get shot. I wish I could completely rule this out, but I can’t. She’s too smart and too competent to make a gaffe like this more than once, if ever.
The best argument against this interpretation is that it’s far too late in the game to do her much good, and she’s too smart and too competent not to know that the backlash would be ugly and huge. The second-best argument is that she was not speaking to a large audience, trying to get a message out, but instead talking to a newspaper editorial board, explaining her thought process about staying in the race.
3) She was revealing her "vice-nominee" strategy of hanging around to ensure that she would be Obama’s replacement if, God forbid, something happened to him. If you elide the conversation to "Why are you still in the race?" "Because RFK got shot," I guess I can see how someone could reach that conclusion, but it’s absurd.
Firstly, the strategy makes no sense. Who exactly is Hillary trying to stay ahead of as the emergency backup nominee? What marginal benefit does she obtain by staying in (and incurring massive debt) instead of dropping out? Secondly, even if this were her strategy, there is no way in hell that she would ever admit to something so ghoulish.
I really, really want to take Hillary at face value and not believe that she was actually using the prospect of an opponent’s assassination to score political points – hell, maybe the possibility of Obama getting shot simply didn’t occur to her (it’s certainly not on my mind very often). But even if her intentions were pure, it was still an incredibly careless and stupid thing to say, and now the media and the right-wing crazies like Malkin have a new Democratic outrage to wring their hands about. Not only that, but now that the idea is "out there," they all get to breathlessly speculate about the chances that maybe something could happen to Obama. And won’t that be fun.
UPDATE: Cinnamonape in the comments points to this Jake Tapper post which questions the validity of Clinton’s comparison to the ’68 and ’92 primaries, and also points out that extended Democratic primaries do not generally translate to electoral success.



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I’m beginning to get breathless speculating about the chances that a superdelegate tsunami is about to hit the Clinton beachhead.
Well well well, thanks Eli, it’s about time.
Sure is.
Some of us here have loathed both Clinton’s for years. We have people jumping up and down because they claim it’s all about Obama. It’s not for me.
I don’t particularly hate (or like) the Clintons. But the RFK comment was just incredibly thoughtless and stupid – at best.
And if a certain person shows up and starts with that weak bullshit defense of, what did that one woman call her, “that monster”, I will not be polite.
I understand and that’s cool. It’s this assumption that a visceral dislike for two people that have never been close to being progressive is the same as being an Obama fanatic is crap.
Triangulated and planned,
to encourage teh super-duper delegates to consider the possibility (high in my opinion) that Obama is a Target, and
to encourgae teh wack jobs to keep going with their plans to out Obama…
I saw her last night responding to this, and thought that her campaign was over. Dean Scream over. No matter what she meant, and I gave her the benefit of the doubt but I’m not sure now, it’s still really over.
But does she know that?
Yeah, I’m not an Obama fanatic either. Gore, and maybe Dodd, are the only candidates I could have gotten fanatic for. My girlfriend is a huge Gravel fan, though – based entirely on his music video oeuvre.
A career ending mistake. Can’t be president, vp, majority leader.
Solid, like a rock rock rock
I agree with Syiona, nothing these two skunks do is by chance. Not multiple sniper raps, this crap, none of it.
Oh crapsters – I need to go find a stash of lyrics. Best get crackin’
bom dia pups…just woke up
now off to read post
Yes. She is done. Even if this was just careless or whatever I don’t want anyone in charge who just blurts things out. This was truly awful and unforgiveabe.
She was signaling primary voters and superdelegates to pick her because she’s less likely to get shot.
I don’t pretend to understand Clinton’s mind, but this strikes me as completely off the wall. What in the world would make anyone think that one of them is less likely to be assassinated than the other? Reagan was almost assassinated, as was Gerald Ford. If there’s a pattern to Presidential assassination attempts, it’s that they’re done by people who are off their rockers. How would anyone know what some random crazy person resents?
If there’s any meaning to her statement beyond what she says there is, it might be a variation of #3, which is that between now and then, all sorts of things can happen. A lousy choice of examples, but that’s what I read into it.
I am tired of judgments. I have long since decided to vote for Obama but the sooner we stop feeding the “clintons are evil” scapegoat, we might actually find time to do something about the factual potential crimes of the Bush administration.
You cannot know her motivations in making her statements. It’s hysteria. It’s the same kind of thinking that would get a black man lynched because he glared as he spoke. I am sick of it.
Can we PLEASE stop following the leader of emotion mind and start using our cognitive frontal lobes to distinguish map from territory, judgments from facts??
The map is not the territory. Just because you feel it, does not make it so. This is the same kind of thinking that started the Iraq war. It’s just as wrong when you do it with a liberal flare as when it is done with a conservative bent.
At the least it reinforces for the hundredth time her incompetence. At the worst it reinforces a Freudian slip of horrible dimensions. either way it shows that she is unfit for any high position.
The thought did occur that that basic premise might be flawed. But if fearmongering were her intent, that probably wouldn’t matter.
Freudian slips are not repeated, this was.
given this country’s violent political past, that wasn’t the best choice of words.
When I saw it on the front page of the NY Times I found it chilling. At best, I find it stupid and disgusting.
True.
True, but I don’t think women can feel particularly immune to violence, and you’d have to think that she would feel somewhat more immune if that were the case.
I have never been thrilled about either HRC or BO. My man Dodd was out before I got to vote for him. I would love to know what the hell HRC meant when she made this comment. Just so far over the line IMO. To even suggest….. wow, just wow.
And if another candidate referenced, oh I don’t know, rape for instance?
Freud wore slips? Full or half? sorry – not enuf coffee
Howard Dean is working hard to avoid a scene like this Hilary.
Attica!!!
I remember very well the RFK events as they were the first election that I EVER participated in. My older Brother had just been drafted and I was VERY anti-VN war and underage (18 year olds could not yet vote BTW). McCarthy and RFK were tearing each other apart for votes…McCarthy hitting college campuses hoping to get young people who COULD vote to support him…while Bobby was working the barrios and ghettos and pop-culture celebrities.
Neither had the delegates in hand, and were, in fact largely relying on the other side coming over to them in the convention to thwart Humphrey. Even then, it wasn’t clear who would have won the final Primary in New York, and whether that would have been enough to win the brokered convention. HHH had refused to run against them directly, instead accumulating delegates by covert “favorite sons” in various races.
It wasn’t McCarthy, who was clearly the #2 candidate in terms of actual elected delegates and popular votes that was “appointed” to replace Bobby after his death in California. It was the ultimate “back-door” deal-maker…Humphrey!
And Bill was leading by a huge amount of delegates in 1992…it was Jerry “Moonbeam” Brown that was trying to play spoiler. As I recall the Clintons asked him repeatedly to gracefully withdraw.
So I don’t understand at all Hillary’s use of this example to explain why she’s still staying in…unless she is actually playing the Humphrey role with the Super Delegates?
If she wants to make the case that she should stay in for a “reason” then it’s Brown or George Wallace or Gary Hart… the Anybody But Carter coalition or even Ted Kennedy in 1982…that she point to. Not the RFK 1968 or her husbands race in 1992.
Unless this is a desperately-saying-anything-to-try-to-get-elected situation, although my gut feeling is that it isn’t. More of an unthinking foot-in-mouth situation.
Can we PLEASE stop following the leader of emotion mind and start using our cognitive frontal lobes to distinguish map from territory, judgments from facts??
Dream on. One thing I’ve been reminded of in this campaign is how few people on the left take those words to heart.
Agreed.
I understand your sentiment. I wish Congress would show more willingness to prosecute the Bush administration for its crimes, too.
The minute she concedes and endorses I am willing to forget every crazy thing she’s ever done or said. Until then she is just a tool of the current establishment trying to bargain with everyone to help avoid their impending banishment.
Therefore, this is part of the struggle to end the future generation of crimes before they are committed.
Yeah, that’s the other part of the problem – even ignoring the mention of the assassination, the whole primaries-in-June-are-perfectly-normal argument is flawed. It’s not really a question of where we are on the calendar, it’s a question of where we are in the delegate count.
(Also, ironically, wasn’t ‘68 the election that *resulted* in the creation, or at least the expansion, of the superdelegates?)
It is a fact that Hillary said this. That is not an emotion. It was foot-in-mouth and most unwise. It’s sounds awful whatever you want to call it. The AA community is very concerned about Obama. The words were painful.
An interesting article by Jake Tapper Clinton’s Fallacy of RFK and Bill 1992
Dream on. One thing I’ve been reminded of in this campaign is how few people on the left take those words to heart.
reply compared to what?
I’m no Clinton fan, believe me, but there wasn’t anything wrong with what she said in the context she said it.
I’m a big Keith O fan, but his “special comment” was hysterical. Not funny-funny hysterical, but foam-out-at-mouth-over-nuttin’ hysterical.
Can we settle down to the business of highlighting John “No Gaffe Left Behind” McCain’s truly pathetic campaign?
–
c varnell
Calling people skunks,monsters, loathing people you know even know, telling people to stick it…
Obama values?
____________
Raven May 24th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
6
And if a certain person shows up and starts with that weak bullshit defense of, what did that one woman call her, “that monster”, I will not be polite.
____________
You’re expecting RFK, Jr.? And you’re going to be impolite to him?
Interesting.
I thought hate was a Republican value.
A repeated unthinking foot-in-mouth situation? More evidence of gross incompetence, at the least.
‘68 lead to the McGovern commission and the move away from winner-take-all and toward proportional represnetation (not just a bunch of white guys in the back room). ‘72 and ‘76 lead to the creation of super delegates as the McGovern and Carter elections were felt to be insurgent in nature and there were elected officials that were not named as delegates those years
It wasn’t supposed to be funny and he was right on time.
Geez, are you ever grabbing at straws. Old ones at that.
Hillary is still breathing and isn’t bloodied enough for Obamans.
We’ll get there.
There it is
It’s not that old.
I was beginning to wonder when FDL might get to this.
This was no slip of the tongue, nor a Freudian Slip. She’s repeating something she said in March to Time. It’s patently clear that her “strategy”, for lack of a better term, has been to stay in the game long enough for something untoward to happen to Obama; assassination is about all she has left. Her non-apology apology made no more sense than the initial statement, which leads me to believe that she meant what she said and frankly didn’t expect to be called on it.
She’s destroyed whatever goodwill was left, from me at least. We cannot and must not abide this brand of win-at-all-costs politics. It saddens me to say this, as I was a staunch Clinton supporter through the 90’s, but the sooner they disappear from the national stage, the better.
Please, folks. Do. Not. Feed. The. Trolls.
We’ve already had one thread today trashed by one. Let’s not make it two.
Different facets of a pile of steaming shit is still a pile of steaming shit.
What gets me most is the incomprehensible insensitivity of the timing w/r/t the feelings of Kennedy family, and all who sympathize so deeply with them at this time of crisis. I mean Ted’s health and prognosis, of course.
Secondarily, at a much much lower level of importance to me, if Hil couldn’t muster even the teeny tiny crumb of political horse sense it would have taken to realize how self-destructive that poke at the hornet’s nest would be, then she’s disqualified for any high political role just from a basic brain function POV. We could be charitable and say it’s a blind spot (and don’t we all have plenty of those?), but there is no evidence to indicate that it was anything other than self-serving tunnel vision at work here. And what the tunnel excluded was essentially the royal family of the party to which she should be in service. But, it’s now obvious, isn’t.
Actually the Super Delegates were created in 1973, I believe…after Shirley Chisholm and George McGovern worked to get the “McGovern Rule” implemented that allowed all delegates to be won via the primaries and caucuses. When McGovern won the nomination he was deserted by the party hacks and fundraisers resulting in the humiliating re-election victory by Nixon. The “awarding” of Super Delegates was to reinstitute “less Democracy” and to give perks and power to the Parties “Institutional” participants.
definitely a ‘huh?’ moment. not the image you want to invoke during an election of firsts (first woman, first minority, first fart -mccain)
Hilary is just demonstrating her facility for Pretzel Logic once more. Haven’t we had enough of that over the last eight years?
As offensive as the RFK comment was, I was equally disturbed by her claim that it was unprecedented to have so many ask a candidate to step aside. WTF? What’s unprecedented is to have someone continue to run after they’ve lost the nomination. She’ll still be running on 1/20/09.
As I said in the post, the most innocent explanation I can think of is that the thought of Obama getting assassinated simply never occurred to her. But repeatedly using RFK’s assassination as a marker is a very strange choice, to say the least.
What one chooses to feel or think about facts are emotional or intellectual processes, not facts. If some AAs are willing to ignore the fact that women can also be victims of violence and simply conclude that because Clinton is white that she feels immune, then they’re not using their intellects very well.
awww
I’m a bit perplexed by the uproar around Clinton’s comments. Yes, they were tactless and stupid, but they were pretty much on par with everything else that’s come out of her campaign over the last 3 months. I think there’s probably an age gap here, for very understandable reasons: If you’re old enough to remember the RFK assassination, I think that this is probably a bigger deal than than if you just learned about it history class. Most of the people in charge–in both politics and the media–fall into the former category, which may be why they see this as a much bigger gaffe than I do.
I can’t read her mind as to motive, but there is one. From my work as a canvasser I know the fear of Obama getting shot is HUGE. Again I don’t know why but this wasn’t a throwaway line.
Get where? I am so curious.
I agree. mr taped the show for me and I watched it a little earlier. To inject that moment in history, that word is scraping at a scab
Just to remind folks, there are precedents for some of the actions Senator Clinton has taken.
wiki
You said it better than I planned to…. thank you for saving me from myself..
Tuesday I am going to be making a lot of phone calls…. starting with the AZ Supers and work my way through those uncommitted Supers….. asking them to end this mess…
At this time of the news about Teddy, I cannot imagine why she would even mention the Kennedy name. Seems to me that would be the last thing you would say.
I was at Lewis “training” to go to the Nam. We heard it on the radio and, after King, it was crushing. People who were not there have no idea how palpable the tension was.
Keith said there is never an appropriate time to bring up the 60’s assassinations.
Since he and his MSM colleagues have never bothered to properly investigate the assassinations of JFK and RFK, I find his outrage mis-placed, to put it politely.
Ignore is a good policy….. usually they end up talking to themselves…
speaking of poo…weebits eyes are open and she has gotten much bigger. She still sleeps a lot but has now taken to playing a little bit before passing out *g*
So anyone who disagrees is a troll and must be ignored at FDL?
and to think we’ve spent the last eight years complaining about Bush quashing dissent and only wanting to hear people who agree with him.
No problem. I’ll leave.
Ciao.
My daddy always tol’ me to be nice.
I can’t think of a time when it’s been done, at least not by this many people. In fairness, though, this is the first time that almost all the delegates were awarded by May.
he and his MSM colleagues
yea, you know what you are talking about.
It was her way to state that she might be needed in case something “happened” to Obama, as she has been praying for desperately since February 5.
i think the word i’ve used is despise. but still, i’ve watched the youtube clip and i can’t say it was clear she was mentioning rfk’s assassination – i thought it more likely just some bullshit argument about how continuing until june was not unusual.
but i didn’t understand the reaction to the dean scream either.
could it be because i don’t watch cable tv (other than c-span)?
That is my intention.
That makes my day. I make her to be about 17 days. That sound about right?
So this shit isn’t cumulative for you?
Oh, no, please stay, I promise to not be offensive. It was simply a direct question.
I fail to see how investigations into these assasinations makes them any less horrendous. Could you elaborate what you mean?
Am I the only here who believes her, that it was reason number 1? It seems pretty obvious to me, if you read it in its context, that she was only making a chronological point. But Howard Dean didn’t really scream either and that was the end of him.
Mine did too but after this morning…..
Not to throw gas on this by WHY would someone use such a false analogy?
Bills primary was pretty much sewn up in April….. And in 68 the primary season did not start until Feb….. that isn’t as long as this never ending primary…..
I might have been able to buy the innocent explanation, but her bizarro “apology” struck me even more than her original comments did. Her “apology” should have been tightly scripted by her and her senior staff. If that’s the best they can come up with, they all need to resign in disgrace.
You have a weebits? I have a Lil Bit but I bet yours es los gato?
Hey FP,
I’m a “Jonesie” (just learned that term last weekend here at FDL!) and I’m old enough to remember the RFK assassination and vividly recall my mother’s tears even though she is not a dem. Ah, back in the days of country over party. But I do not carry around the month of June as a key point on that event. Hil could have made the June argument and could have mentioned RFK without mentioning the tragedy. It’s just stupid, tasteless, and offensive, insensitive, etc.
Besides JUNE isn’t even the point! Staying in after you’ve lost is. It’s embarrassing.
I don’t have a problem with pounding the Clintons, but let’s pound them with substantive arguments and not play this “gotcha” game.
I would say so. Oh, she is definitely a girl *g*
I promise to not be offensive.
Not me, I promise to be offensive.
It can be so much fun my way sometimes. Geometric logic and such.
So what are you arguing?
She’s also wrong on the history. Her husband had the nomination locked up long before the California primary which, in 1992, was on June 2, one day before this year’s last primaries:
yes, we have a weebits *g* Found about 2 weeks back by neighbor. thanks to the pups here, she is coming along very nicely. In fact she sleeps on me or mr during the day.
As I’ve said elsewhere, the biggest problem is her non-apology. Showed the video to Texteen this afternoon, stopped it at the “apology” statement, and asked him what he though was wrong with it. He immediately spotted that she did not actually apologize and that he did not mention Obama.
I think Eli’s post is all that need be said on this issue. For my money it’s not worth discussing.
No, you’re not the only one. I do. RFK, Jr., does.
But that makes us trolls and incoherent and loathesome and unwelcome at FDL.
Others are told to ignore us – well, to “do not feed”, which is what signs say about animals in zoos.
We are Republican shills too.
Welcome to Obama inspiration and unity and the end of Bush intolerance for dissenting viewpoints!
I am now also recalling Rahm Immanuel’s line that Hil can’t win it but Obama could somehow manage to lose it. I think this is weird comment but now in the context of Hil’s remark and Huckabee’s staged joke, not so much.
C’mon,
You really, really want to take Hillary at face value. Why in the world would you after months of vile insenstive statements coming out of her mouth and her troops. Take off the rose colored glasses please. Hillary is about Hillary and nothing else, not helping the “hard working, white Americans”, not fighting against Jim Crow, not making sure we do not turn into Zimbabwe, not to give a gas tax holiday that makes no economic sense in the first place — not any of those — she WANTS to be President. Who cares what falls to wayside in that pursuit.
We need change. She cannot and will not deliver that.
I would be most happy to do so. But I’m afraid the opposition has vacated the premises. To my great dismay.
I’m still not caught up, apparently. Weebits?
I can’t bring myself to think her comments were nefarious, just ill phrased. But then again, I try to find the good in everyone.
Aw, our Lil Bit has all these problems but she if just fine when she’s being held. Wanna see her?
I’m sorry, but I just can’t buy this argument. If something does “happen” to Obama, she’s sort of the obvious understudy. It’s not like we’d be scrambling to find somebody. Does she honestly think people are going to forget about her? Please. It’s not like we’d go to the convention saying, “Do you think Jimmy Carter would be up for another run?”
On a simplistic yet important national political discussion level.. I see polar opposites..
One who hopes for the worst..
One who clearly does not.. in fact, refuses to do so.
Of course the losing candidate has a distinct disadvantage and arguably needs a fight/attention.. But the consistent pattern outlined by KO’s way over the top special comment last night did not fail to outline a factual timeline of the incredibly destructive and negative pattern.
You wish. It’s like a bad penny.
There is some logic in that. Obama could endorse NAMBLA or some other such thing. Otherwise I think he was just telling HRC in a nice way that it’s over.
that makes sense.
The comment was insensitive, but I think your point of view is quite accurate. I remember the scene so vividly I can see it in my mind’s eye in vivid detail. You see it sometimes in old footage; the happy, celebration, Ethel and Bobby, on to Chicago, then bedlam and Is there a doctor in the House? hysteria. For those of us who were around wanting to end that terrible war, it is a tragic indelible moment. I cannot imagine being glib about it. But the difference in recall, as you point out, is a given…the way older folks have talked about Pearl Harbor…that “I will never forget where I was.” Thank you for that note.
very cute!
Reflecting insecurity about being the next one chosen?
Really, the only possible rationale I can think of is that if she drops out, Obama names a running mate, and then somehow the running mate becomes the nominee if something happens to Obama.
But I’m pretty sure it doesn’t actually work that way.
Paranoid people can have very low opinions of themselves and their chances. Perhaps she is afraid she couldn’t gain the nomination even if Obama were to be abducted by space aliens or some other such scenario.
Given that a major Republican nominee had already made a joke about shooting Obama and not gotten 1/10th the outrage, I think the idea was already out there.
Well, that and Obama and Michelle thinking twice about running because they were scared he’d been shot.
But sure, it’s all Clinton’s fault and since she’s so robotically perfect and smart that she never makes mistakes even when campaigning for 18 hour days for months I’m sure it wasn’t just a mistake. I mean, she isn’t even human, so why treat her like one? And why, ever, give her the benefit of the doubt.
As for the “staying in the nomination battle hoping for Obama to be offed” argument, does no one think at all? Eli noted it’s absurd. Imagine Clinton drops out today and Obama is killed tomorrow. Who’s going to be the nominee? Think about it for 2 freakin’ seconds with your outrage shut off.
She doesn’t need to keep running if what she’s hoping for is assassination, she’d almost automatically be the nominee if that happened before the convention, because she would have the most delegates.
Clinton’s comment was stupid and tactless, but that’s all it was.
The “investigations” into the murders of JFK and RFK made the killings more horrific — terrible lies have been told with a straight face by otherwise admirable folks like Walter Cronkite and Keith Olbermann.
Olbermann had the Manager of the 6th Floor Offical Lie Exhibit, one Gary Mack, on his show a while back and Mack said — “There remains no evidence of a conspiracy” and Olbermann sat there nodding his head.
All it takes is a cursory look at the physical evidence and any objective person can see through the lies.
Olbermann has no business calling out Hillary Clinton given his own utterly irresponsible failure to look at the assassinations in any depth.
Some of us have waited two days for this post and you want to bag it?
That looks so much fun – great dogs. Must take energy to keep up with them. Also like the music – who is it?
I hope you are correct. The smell of napalm in the morning, you might say.
please stop over generalizing. not every person:
a) is against you
b) is against you and is an obama supporters
c) is an obama supporter that is against you
d) etc.
Now that’s a fine looking pup. Both of them.
I’m w/ Wobbly. I got home and put on KO in time for his Special
DiatribeComment. Thought it was way over the top. I just wasn’t, and still am not outraged. bad way for her to try to make a point.One more thing. HRC said that Bill didn’t wrap up the nomination until June. Is that right? Anybody remember/know? I was living in NJ then and New Jersey (until this year) always had its primary in June. I don’t remember that primary (or any other NJ primary) being meaningful. My recollection is that by the time we voted, the nomination was already always wrapped up. Might be wrong. Just my recollection. June 1992?? I think I was still drinking then, so maybe my memory isn’t the best.
That doesn’t mean that what she said here meant anything else than what she said it did.
i’ve tried to avoid 95% of the primary campaign coverage since about january. i’ll occasionally listen to a debate (and i spent far too much time trying to make sense of paul lukasiak’s posts) but not much else, and i barely watch any tv other than cspan.
You are serious aren’t you. This is fucking unreal.
Douglas Brinkley and Keith Obermann implied that her March reference to the possibility, and removal of it in subsequent mentions of ongoing primaries suggested that the recurrence may have been a lapse due to fatigue and a melt down. Brinkley saw it as sad and suggested that someone close to her help her down off of the ledge.
For myself, the continued disingenuousness (I can’t imagine why anyone would ask me to get out) and subsequent “apology” for insensitivity to the Kennedy family with no mention of the Obama’s is what I found repulsive. Apparently, she thinks people like George McGovern are either looking for jobs in the Obama admininstration, or have become completely irrational.
that is the name Suzanne christened the newborn kitten we found.
That’s a big part of what makes this so creepy – HRC is of that generation that placed all their hopes in RFK, only to watch him die. That she uses that imagery to score some cheap (and essentially meaningless) political point is reprehensible.
Given that a major Republican nominee had already made a joke about shooting Obama and not gotten 1/10th the outrage, I think the idea was already out there.
True, but in our defense, we expect this sort of thing from Republicans nowadays. Dog bites man, etc.
Los Lobos but it’s a Richie Valenz cover.
Yes, I too am of this opinion. The coffin nails are not quite driven all the way in yet. They must be hammered in quite tight.
Given that a major Republican nominee had already made a joke about shooting Obama and not gotten 1/10th the outrage,
Well, technically he was an ex-candidate at that point, but I was still pretty pissed that it just slid by. Especially from someone trying to position himself as the new leader of the Christian Right.
I guess I’m just sick of one person’s endless line of crap, rehashed ad nauseum
I think age does have something to do with it.
I remember that a friend who was a congressman at the time said it was as if the lights in America were being turned off one at a time – Jack, Martin, and Bobby. I don’t think we have ever recovered from it.
Just for context: Remember what a profound disappointment Bill was to the progressives who helped elect him? It’s becoming clearer and clearer to me that a Hil win would absolutely mean a repeat of that. (Not that there’s no risk of disappointment with Barry, in fact I wish he’d been more explicit about policies and programs much much earlier.)
She was in a bad way when you found her, then?
awwwww I love it!!!! How old is lil bit?
I hear ya but this new one is amazing. KO was 9 fucking years old and he’s responsible for not investigating. I may go back to drinking.
Bill didn’t wrap it up in the sense that the other candidates (Jerry Brown) hadn’t all conceded, but it was already over mathematically.
Isn’t somewhat willfully ignorant to suggest it’s inappropriate to remind everyone why all of the candidates are assigned SECRET SERVICE AGENTS when they announce. Isn’t it also disingenuous to overlook that she may be more of a candidate for a tragic reaction from a disgruntled white male? She said what everyone should not lose sight of: as two individuals markedly different than their predecessors, the potential Democratic have both potentially placed themselves in harm’s way. They have both accepted the risk. So tell me, what’s so wrong about remembering that things can change suddenly?
I also wish it had gotten more attention. One of the nbc hacks interviewed him the next day and introduced the clip as “a joke” before Hucksterbee even had to defend it.
fwiw, mark shields acknowledges that Obama has received threats and it is talked about a lot privately, not publicly. on newshour yesterday (friday).
I was a toddler and I didn’t investigate it either.
Nothing, but to use it as justification for staying in a political race she cannot win is simply beyond comprehension.
I fail to see how a killing can be MORE horrific. The loss of a human life through violent means is itself horrific.
of COURSE Obama has received threats! That’s why so few blacks supported his candidacy to begin with.
See my 89.
I desperately want Keith to refocus on Bush and McCain. His primary coverage has been really bad. And the Special Comment, while outrageous, convinced no one of anything.
We dunno, she was dumped in a box at our vet in the middle of the night. She has her adult teeth but, as you can see, she’s full of piss and vinegar. She looks so much like Raven (we lost him a 14 last year) that it’s a little chilling. We would not have purposely gotten a pupster that was so similar but she came to us. The white dude is the bohdi, a stray himself he is a rock!
The sudden change she’s anticipating may, if certain shadowy rumors of dodgy origin are correct, be more Michelle-based than assassin-based.
Yeah, people have been digging into both events for over 40 years and a couple of TV guys are supposed to be the grand investigators coming up with the definitive answer.
You confuse explanation with justification.
His primary coverage is OF someone who is really bad. What do you expect?
she was only a few days old. She had to be kept warm, encouraged to ‘go’, bottle fed on demand, etc. She could have died but everyday she is here, her chances of overall survival increase. I couldn’t have doneit without the pups here. We recieved much encouragement and advice.
Huckabee is a despicable man. That joke has to be seen on video to realize that it was fully staged and he was just waiting for his cue to let loose his lame and tasteless “joke”.
That a man who releases serial criminals who have found god over the objections of the victims’ families is being taken seriously by anyone is very disturbing to me. Not to mention the two sons who carry guns onto airplanes and murder stray dogs.
Really?? I made myself stop watching/reading after New Hampshire for a couple weeks. But I didn’t quite make it. Needed my primary coverage, especially with(unauthorized) primaries comming to my state. Afrter that i was back into it for a little bit and then i just got tired of the same ol’ stuff. Over analysis and all that bullshit. then the Rev Wright thing happened and I just stopped paying much attention. If for no other reason, Hillary, please stop. You bore me anymore.
Book Salon upstairs The Senator and the Sharecropper
That Hillary’s mis-statement concerned 1992, not 1968.
As TeddySF points out in post 89 (and as I did yesterday at Schecter’s joint), Slick had the Dem nomination wrapped up in early April, and although Jerry Brown didn’t back off his anti-establishment rhetoric (iirc), he didn’t occasionally sing the praises of the GOP candidate as Hillary has done, and he didn’t unleash slash and burn attacks on Slick’s “electibility” as Hillary has done with Obama.
My ultimate point:
May the Goddess damn the mainstream news media for allowing the killers of JFK and RFK get away with it.
–
c varnell
that is truly a beautiful story. My dogs/pets have always found me and weebit is really no different although she will have a permanent home with my aunt.
Ouch ouch ouch. I swear I respect your opposing viewpoint, and raise you a righteous indignation in return.
We are all about Respecting, Empowering, and Including. We will tolerate any discussion of issues that may need to be resolved between the two campaigns.
We will not tolerate obvious coordination of campaigns with the repug enemy and/or race-baiting campaigbn tactics. Or hopes that our candidate will be struck by lightning or be hurt in some unfortunate accident.
We will also not tolerate being dictated with demands for a spot on the ticket in return for peace.
If this seems unreasonable, so be it.
We expect to be respected as the 2008 Democratic nominee for POTUS, and nothing less. In the same manner that previous nominees have been respected.
what
ever
Explanation is rational; justification is what we saw.
I’ve never believed that rumor. Clinton would have paid any price for that video. Even Cindy McCain would have sold it to her. If it was real, we’d have seen it by now.
She’s had Secret Service protection for sixteen years. She knows the drill. Talking about assassination is stupid, especially for one who has protection against it.
And has had that protection for a very long time.
I know I haven’t. The formative experience of a generation.
What’s unreal?
Since when is it a big surprise that the U.S. government lies and the corporate media repeat those lies?
Wow, that is so off-the-wall.
He has reduced his coverage of the Bush administration to one ninety-second segment with three updates called “Bushed” — I expect a lot better from him. The primary’s been over since the end of February, and yet the Bush outrages continue apace.
Where’s his outrage?
OK.
At one point I had wondered if HRC was still running in order to keep up appearances not just for her own sake but as some kind of favor to the party. That is, to keep the 50 State thing going, everyone gets heard, etc.
If that is so, then couldn’t she do it with more grace and get kudos along the way for being a team player? She could be talking about her priorities, the dems priorities, etc and take the discussion away from mere “horserace” talk to onto other important topics. Instead she takes a headlong dive into quicksand.
If she is to be the Plan B, then she needs to be able to keep all dem supporters not alienate them. imho!
Do you actually watch KO?
okay but i still don’t get how an assasination can be more horrendous. the act itself is a horrendous act
I completely agree. The dream died; the world went crazy with King and Bobby, then Nixon in. Those references also explain part of the energy and hope that envelopes Obama. Like JKF, he is not perfect, but he calls us to a better way and hope. Those Kennedy stories are in my mind just like stories and events in my own family/experience. Many of my friends share the same loss and immediacy of what all that felt like and meant in our national like.
And one can’t help but wonder how much different (and better) this country would be if they had all lived.
I tend to agree, but on the other hand Team Clinton is pretty good at keeping secrets. The opportune moment may not have arrived yet.
I’m sorry, I really enjoy your company here. I just think you are wrong.
Oh. i hadn’t read everything when I put up my first comment at 117. Teddy SF had aleady answered my question @ his 89. Hadn’t read that yet.
See, I KNEW she was full of shit. I KNEW it.
I think about that as well.
Good question. Hillary is not the one driving the country off the cliff or breaking the law on a daily basis.
I never knew that Walter and Keith had been tasked with unraveling these enigmas before they would be able to act as journalists. If I had understood that beforehand, that omniscience was the necessary qualification for commenting on current issues such as this I would never had complained. Please excuse my ignorance.
read this -
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln01_leader.html
the power of suggestion and American bloodlust
I was 8 in 1963.
This didn’t stop me from looking at the physical evidence in the case when I became an adult.
What’s Olbermann’s excuse?
She knows that she — and her husband — will never pass the vetting process to be Obama’s Veep. The presidential nomination is her only shot.
KO has definitely overused the Special Comment device imho. It should be reserved for war crimes and acts against democracy ie anything bush cabal has done.
WPIW would have sufficed.
I’m for Obama, but I just CAN’T believe this was calculated. One thing bothers me, tho … she has used the Bill-primary-June talking point many times before, and this time she looked up into the air while talking about it as if she COULDN’T REMEMBER which month he clenched the nomination, and pretending that the interviewer had to prompt her on the month. That’s such BS it makes me queston everything.
I realized how bad it had gotten on Countdown when KO had Jonathan Turley on the other night to talk briefly about the Rove subpoena, and I thought, “Wow, we haven’t seen Turley in a long, long time.” Keith has lost focus, and Countdown has suffered. “Bushed” doesn’t cover it, not by a long shot.
Uh, he’s not a conspiracy nut case?
It was weird for me, i guess. I wasn’t old enough to really appreciate what was going on. But I’m old enough to remember the events. I just didn’t understand what was happening. But watching all those funerals on TV made an impression. How sad. Ever try to think “what’s my first memory.” You usually can’t be sure. But JFK’s funeral might have been mine.
These are the uncommitted super-delegates. Time to ask them to declare.
http://demconwatch.blogspot.co…..orsed.html
Is there some inherent obligation that each individual look into his murder? Would that also include the murders of MLK, JFK, Malcolm X, etc.? If so, I have failed my obligation in this country and to the countless murdered back in Brasil.
We who remember the Kennedy to Nixon years have an obligation to recite what happened to folks who don’t, because those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.
Hi Howie needs help – anyone a member of Daily Kos that can recommend and/or comment???
Good thing there is an off switch huh?
It will be nice to get Keith back.
So true. It’s all on his head. How dare he comment on anything else until he has personally solved one of history’s greatest riddles.
No, SD, journalists have NOT been digging for 40 years.
Mainstream journalists and academics have spent 40+ years repeating the US government lies.
One look at the bullet hole in JFK’s jacket should tell you he wasn’t shot in the back of the neck.
http://subversivehistory.com/
A five year old could figure it out!
Perhaps Keith has re-focused because none of the dems in congress are acting against the current administration.
Regardless of her intentions or motive, if she somehow ends up on the ticket, the Pukes will run “We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California.”
24/7
Bapu, formerly BabyKakes, at about 7 months. At work before I brought him home.
Lemme puity that another way. Not muy first memory. I guess the first thing I can remember. or the thing I can clearly remember that’s most distant in time. I was 4, almost 5. If I thought about it I could probably remember older stuff. Nothiong that made such an impression. More the pomp and pagentry of iot than what was really happening.
I bet he spends the usual time on these issues once the current threat from within the party is vanquished.
How did this get to be his responsibility?
Oh shit!! The time!! I gotta get to Publix. See yuz.
We who remember the Kennedy to Nixon years have an obligation to recite what happened to folks who don’t, because those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.
OK, I remember that Kennedy got us into Vietnam, created “the greatest lying machine in history” to cover up what bullshit is was and then joked about passing on to the next chump president. Camelot my dying ass. 58,000+ on the Wall and 3 million Vietnamese. Like that memory?
*sigh* i can’t wait until this primary is officially over.
Small update on Hoover, the new gray kitteh. He did well at the vet, and has decided he’s mostly going to be an outside kitteh. He’ll be coming inside at night and when it rains (like now), but Victoria, the Queen Empress of all the Universe, has been simply foul — hurling herself at him snarling and spitting. When he’s inside he stays in my office/bedroom/bath, but he prefers being outdoors. (Can’t say as I blame him at this point.)
Such an unbelievable slide in many ways, including all the hope for Civil Rights to the Southern strategy that has stayed with us. Thanks
Hell yes.
BTW, I was in a workshop- one member was prof of political science. Specializes in AA politics. I was asking her take on possible VP nominees for Obama. Another other things, she said= well, since both candidates (McCain and Obama) are likely to die in office, whoever they choose as VP will be very important. I was taken aback, bec. I thought that this was just a rw talking point- nope, a genuine fear w/in the AA community.
awww what a sweet face. I need to empty this card so I can take pics of weebit
You and me both. I’d *much* rather talk about the suckness of McCain.
I would love to know all the details of the assassination of Malcolm X but I don’t “expect” anyone to solve that to the satisfaction of all.
I clearly remember watching Oswald get shot on live TV at the age of 4 and surmising that that was how executions were handled and being quite satisfied in the successful conclusion, in a cartoony sort of way. In fact, I think my cartoon was being preempted for the special report. A job well done in the mind of a 4-year-old.
Later it was explained to me otherwise. Years later, of course.
I was in a kinda Cowboys and Indians phase back then.
Leaders of Southeast Asia give American people credit for remembering/learning the lessons of Vietnam. American government, not so much.
oh dear. well my aunt has a cat and she is a total bi- well er umm she does not suffer others too well. Oh well she will have to get over it.
I don’t blame Hoover either. I know I’d stay out of the queen’s way
Ha, what a sweetie!
I’d like to invite everyone to come upstairs; we are discussing a fascinating book and there are only a couple of us up there.
As Shooter has demonstrated, and GHW Bush before him, the Constitution’s vagueness about the VP slot makes it uniquely suited for getting shady shit done in the dark. That’s why only thoroughly trustable people should be considered as running mates.
One of the reasons I supported John Edwards in 2004 and again this time was because I got a very strong “Bobby” vibe from him. 1968 was a horrible year. If we don’t have John Edwards to reunite the 2 Americas, I’ll opt for a shot at hope…
nope. All I know on the subject is that supposedly the Nation of Islam and the govt were both complicit (partners to say) but nothing definitive out there
and does anyone really give a spit about McCain’s health? I mean, I can do my own Frist style diagnosis and tell the man is old and keeps aging.
It’s the way he’s jerking the media around on the info I don’t like about that story.
And I haven’t even mentioned the GI bill!
i’m not a Hillary fan, and my sister actually falls into the hatred-for-Hillary-camp … however, this is shockingly much ado about nothing. i can’t believe the press and blog time this is getting. i think the whole stream of thought suggesting that Hillary had subliminal Senator Obama assassination ideas in mind – and not an “into June primary season” is absurd.
what have we allowed this process to become?? it seems “we” fan the flames as much as Entertainment Tonight and their ilk.
“a shot at hope”
purely freudian slip of the tongue, I’m soooo sure!
:P
Tsongas dropped out because he did not want to be a “spoiler” and it would enable the party to unite behind Clinton.
Tsongas Graceful In Defeat Says He Will Not Be A “Spoiler”
I can be a frustrated but still current viewer.
No need to turn it off if I’m hoping it gets better! *g*
I think it is important to discuss why people are reacting to her comments so strongly. Nothing Entertainment Tonight-ish about it.
and i wish for some effort at bush containment and congress accountability. can’t please us all.
You and I both have friends whose names appear on that wall. Perhaps others here do as well. War is not about glory. War is about killing. Nothing glorious about it.
Hmmm. I wonder if the Clintons learned the moral of the story from that incident?
I’m not holding my breath.
ooo ooo, jumping, waving. Me too, me too.
Heard caller after caller into the progressive radio shows expressing that very same thing…… first they are afraid to vote for BO because of it then it was they were afraid to hope…… but many sound resigned and that is why WE need to prove it wrong…… Constance vigilance …
For those of us who are old enough to have witnessed all of this mayhem, this is not history. It’s as if it happened yesterday.
i’m only to the bit “The prospect of peaceful quiet felt terribly frightening.”
do this ring true for you?
He’s still the most untamed. Loves attention but I can’t pick him up. But I’m workin’ on it. Shiimsa pretty much the same way.
Did everyone know that Lieberman is up at the Kept Man’s compound in Sedona for his VP survivor Island BBQ bake off?
AZ now needs to be fumigated….
Because the lies that were told about JFK’s killing allowed LBJ to pour a half million American troops into Vietnam, resulting in the deaths of some 55,000 of them and a couple of million Vietnamese.
Is that more horrific for ya?
To me the suckiness of McCain is a foregone conclusion. I canvass for the Obama campaign door-to-door to discuss the suckiness of McBush.
What IS this rumor?
Oh, jeeez…. [hangs head in shame] Let’s try a CHANCE for hope… Crap… [shuffles off, all mortified at her Freudian
slipentire lingerie store]As I said earlier, it’s picking at a scab– a wound tha thas yet to heal.
Which is what makes her dispassionate reference to RFK’s assassination as part of her answer to WHY she’s staying in the race so puzzling. She talks about throwing her bookbag against the wall in her dorm room when MLK was shot — what was her reaction when Bobby died?
The shock and awe her statement generated throughout the punditocracy and the blogosphere was natural — it appeared she answered the question on everyone’s mind: Why are you staying in this race?
JFK may have gotten us in, he certainly did not get us into what it became. The numbers on the wall may have been much much less if someone had not kept saying “move on”.
Any idea who’s on the guest list? The last one didn’t go so well. It was like, “Hey, none of you are Protestant heterosexual white men!”
Maybe that’s precisely why it’s such a big “gaffe”. Hillary predominantly draws her support from those that DO remember the events of 1968…and the back room deals that got Humphrey the nomination over the insurgent Eugene McCarthy…who by actual earned Primary votes and those who voted for him should have been the nominee. Gene and Bobby were the ones battling it out for the popular vote…HHH was the establishment guy.
Hillary’s argument that she’s gonna win over the Super Delegates, steal “committed” delegates, or broker a win in the convention has the aroma of “smoke-filled rooms”.
Younger folks who don’t recall much of what happened in 1968 already largely support Obama.
Why do you think it’s the job of the media to investigate murder?
Make sure you let them know that Arizona Republicans don’t like him….. Did anyone know that McBush tried to do a coup of the AZ GOP state party?
When AZ was voting on officers for the GOP state party, McBush together a slate to “take over” the party and HE LOST….. lots of really hard feelings there about too…
That there is a videotape of Michelle Obama, from church, saying she “hates whitey.” Larry Johnson’s been peddling it quite heavily at No Quarter.
Actually I don’t want to spread it further by describing the particulars, because I worry it doesn’t really exist, i.e. is specifically a false rumor campaign. Teh Google should get you there if you want to seek it out. Sorry for not being more cooperative about this.
That there’s video of Michelle Obama raging against “whitey”. I doubt it.
I did not know that he was in on that circle jerk. And I’m just shocked, shocked I tell you.
There ya go, greenwarrior.
Then why bring it up at all?
Oh, FFS. Thanks, Larry.
And, as more fodder, and for tomorrow’s Book Salon, I checked out the book, and found a few interesting links- Hillary’s involvement in “The Family”
http://www.motherjones.com/new…..rayer.html
Hillary’s Prayer: Hillary Clinton’s Religion and Politics
News: For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill. Is she triangulating—or living her faith?
Interesting read, to say the least. Another linkey in a bit.
McBush VP BBQ
If there is, it is a fake video…made by the producers of the Osama tapes…the father of her two daughters is half white..she’s gonna call someone “whitey”…Not.
Even if it’s only a false rumor campaign, it’s relevant IMHO.
I bet Lieberman’s one of those “friends” who just shows up everywhere without an invite. You know what I mean — everyone has had one of those friends sometime: the person who simply presumes s/he’s invited to every single event. And I bet St McCain doesn’t have the stones to say, “No, Joe, this Veep party is just for GOPs.”
Can you imagine the GOP outrage if Lieberman was McCain’s Veep? I bet they’ll take the nomination away from him. Remember, this is a guy Harry Reid says is “with Democrats on everything except the war.” We know that’s not true, but the GOPs don’t.
And were there any she-GOP officeholders invited to Cindy’s cabin for the GOPstakes? Were Carly HP and Meg eBay invited?
Thanks for the info. Some of the Repubs here might be interested in that. We have our own cadre of Republicans for Obama canvassers(complete with special buttons) that like to specialize in that sort of story.
Generally my spiel consists of 1. Do you support Obama for president? (generally I get a yes before even completing the question) 2. Are you registered? and 3. Be sure to vote. Here is your voting location.
Sometimes the Undecideds want more info, which can be refreshing. The average canvassee needs no info other than info on the procedure.
We who remember the Kennedy to Nixon years have an obligation to recite what happened to folks who don’t, because those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.
And so as part of that obligation you condemn anyone who dares point out the obvious evidence of multiple shooters in the Kennedy cases as “conspiracy nuts”?
Well, I guess no one in a position of high government power would ever conspire to commit crime, now, would they?
Actually it was Eisenhower who got us in VN
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai…..=ADA328884
And JFK was going to pull out – starting with NSAM 263
FrankProbst @57 said:
He’s absolutely right. It’s a visceral reaction. I was 22½ and when Bobby was killed I realized, deep in my bones, that I would die too. It had always been theoretical — the young believe they are “invincible,” right? It changed me in a very profound way.
It’s the job of the media to hold the government accountable for its actions.
Since the government claimed that JFK was shot in the back of the neck (to reconcile their “official” 3-shot scenario with nine wounds in 3 men), it should have been the responsibility of journalists to point out the FACT that the bullet holes in the back of JFK’s clothes are about 3 INCHES below the base of his neck.
Very simple observation. There’s been this smoking gun in the room for 40+ years but the corporate media — and some who post on this thread — appear utterly allergic to hard facts.
March 20, 1992
another linkey re: The Family
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich
~~There’s a reason Hillary Clinton has remained relatively silent during the flap over intemperate remarks by Barack Obama’s former pastor, Jeremiah Wright. When it comes to unsavory religious affiliations, she’s a lot more vulnerable than Obama.
You can find all about it in a widely under-read article in the September 2007 issue of Mother Jones, in which Kathryn Joyce and Jeff Sharlet reported that “through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as “The “Fellowship,” also known as The Family. But it won’t be a secret much longer. Jeff Sharlet’s shocking exposé The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power will be published in May.~~
I dunno about y’all but I’m enjoying this immensely!
Actually, I think it was the Bush family mentor W. Averell Harriman who got us into Vietnam.
http://educationforum.ipbhost……ntry125833
I was much younger (9), and came to the feeling that the entire series of events was normality. Cried and cried when Humphrey was defeated, and McGovern, reveled in triumph as Nixon resigned. Then came 1980 and the realization that regression was inevitable.
No. it is horrific in itself. Violent death is violent death
Yet it remains a complete mystery to Hillary Clinton, why some would ask why she is staying in the race. She knows of no historical precident for such a question, even though John Edwards stated similary reasons for withdrawing about a week ago.
Has anyone discovered who the former covert CIA agent that has a team of former agents involved in a psy-ops against the public turned out to be? Some suspected that it was Johnson, but he lives in Maryland, and the leader of this group, who was out peddling the “Obama is a Muslim” meme…lived in Virginia.
Gotta think that Johnson knows who this person is…or is on the “Crusaders”.
BTW, I’ve heard rumors from inside the Obama campaign that the ground game there is much stronger than anticipated. Time will tell.
Sorry, I must have been unclear in some way. I condemn nobody. Please continue to contribute your perspective of those years as you see fit.
Known about this since it was released…. the author was interviewed several times on a radio show called Action Point on KPHX last year…. not able to find the podcast…
No, I’m saying that it is the obligation of the “news media” to report on actual facts.
RFK died from a point blank shot behind his right ear.
Sirhan was never closer than two feet directly in front of RFK.
Doesn’t take much to figure out that you can’t shoot someone point blank behind their right ear if you’re standing two feet in front of them, now, does it?
is this for real? that this is true? ” the former covert CIA agent that has a team of former agents involved in a psy-ops against the public”
How bout this dog, I don’t give a fuck what you do.
And when lies are told about that death, which leads to the deaths of millions more, it isn’t just a single tragic event, is it?
You’re full of it today, aren’t you?
Holding government accountable means honestly reporting what government is doing, is not doing but should be, or when government is lying to hide its own actions.
Holding government accountable does not require investigating 40-year-old assassinations (especially since nobody in the media has the training to do that kind of investigation), or passing on rumors and conspiracy theories as if they were fact. It also does not require spreading lies about ‘NAFTA highways’ and how wonderful the country would be if all the undocumented immigrants were collected and sent home.
That was directed at Raven.
Thank you for the encouragement!
I’m enjoying this…
Cool. Let’s get back to the business of getting Obama elected.
Hi katymine! been reading your comments, and thanks for this, and above.
The location of bullet holes in clothes are not necessarily indicative of the location of an entrance wound on the body. When you’re sitting down while wearing a jacket the jacket will tend to ride up and bunch just below the collar level. The autopsy photos of JFK’s head indicate the fatal head wound was inflicted from in front. An examination of The Zapruder film shows the impact of the round and indicate a shot fired from ahead of the vehicle. As does a bullet hole near the top of the vehicle’s windscreen.
If a journalist desires to take on an investigation of this magnitude he or she would have to do it on their own time with their own resources. Corporate media is not interested in funding an investigation that may well upset their cozy arrangement with government.
I read a story recently stating that Sirhan Sirhan did not fire the fatal rounds at RFK. That despite the fact that Rosie Greer wrestled the man to the ground while still holding the weapon.
There are some interesting comments on the Obamacan ad at moveon.org from more repubs who support Obama. You might like to check it out.
Thanks, TSF. I’m white. I’ve been called whitey by the MC’s when I was the only white person at gospel shows at the old Apollo in New York. It came with the territory and I was comfortable with it. Many, many white people have not been and are not now any friends or supporters of blacks or their human rights.
Even if this rumor turns out to be true, it doesn’t bother me one bit, given the realilties of racism in this country.
‘Encouragement,’ hm. Guess I should have said it more like this: Not that it’s my place to say it, because this is not my forum, but for what it’s worth I did not intend to silence you.
how could she say it AGAIN for the 4th time…the same week the Kennedy family got the DEVASTATING news about dear TEDDY?
Yes, I have seen it. I have seen similar testimonials firsthand many many times. Some say it is probably temporary, some say that it might be permanent, many cite former fave Repub officials such as Howard Baker and state that “there are no Howard Bakers left”, etc. etc. I especially enjoy it when I am flagged down by one not on my canvass list as I walk by recognize what I’m doing and go out of their way to profess support for Obama.
The few Clinton supporters often slam their door in my face. Even had one, a local precinct official, try to brace me for the coming Obama defeat and tell me how wonderful it was that I was so involved and ask whether I would do the same for HRC in the fall. Can get quite humorous from time to time.
Guess you missed it Selise
What’s The Source of Those Rumors About Obama?
Retired Clandestine CIA Officer…created a group of contacts and informants (perhaps still in the Agency to obtain the priveleged documents? Gotta think he asked…at the very least!) called The Crusaders…as far back as TWO YEARS AGO.
He even tried to hawk off the dossier to the Israeli’s…who backed off…presumably.
McClatchy won’t give up their source…although I suspect much of this stuff is illegal; certainly if it involves active agents or the use of materials that were obtained through intelligence channels.
I IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT OF LARRY JOHNSON…but McClatchy says the source lives in Virginia. Johnson lives in Maryland. But I would bet 10:1 that Johnson is a member of “The Crusaders”. And I have to wonder just who else is in the group…or knows who is? One would think that it would be a moral obligation to call out people lying about Obama and spreading propaganda.
You’re full of it today, aren’t you?
Just today?
Holding government accountable means honestly reporting what government is doing, is not doing but should be, or when government is lying to hide its own actions.
Great! In 1964 a USG panel concluded that JFK was shot in the back of the neck.
Is that where the bullet holes in his clothes are?
No, the bullet holes in his shirt and jacket are several inches below that location.
http://subversivehistory.com/
A five year could figure out that the back of the neck isn’t four inches below the bottom of their clothing collars.
Somehow, this fact evaded almost every mainstream American journalist then and now.
Holding government accountable does not require investigating 40-year-old assassinations (especially since nobody in the media has the training to do that kind of investigation),
Excuse me, but all it takes is a working knowledge of human anatomy and this photo to establish that JFK wasn’t shot in the back of the neck
I mean, really, it isn’t rocket science.
or passing on rumors and conspiracy theories as if they were fact.
What theory?
The bullet hole in the jacket is 4 inches below the bottom of his collar.
Is that in the region of his neck?
No. Simply: no, it isn’t.
This obvious observation has eluded our Keiths and Walters lo these many years…
hahahaha! I thought the ex-CIA line only worked on bimbos but I guess it works on journalists too. oh wait…
Ever heard of Valerie Plame, McClatchy? I’m sure it would be fair game to reveal the name of someone spreading false rumors about a political candidate.
sheesh.
I truly believe, despite their previous successful efforts in prior elections, that the swiftboaters will not be nearly as successful this time and will divert McCain off-message. The simple fact is that the vast majority of voters are so much more afraid of the repugs themselves that any fear that is ginned up will fall on much deafer ears. That’s the sense I get in Indiana, anyway, very fertile ground for such attacks.
$6 a gallon gas and the flurry of foreclosures is scary enough as it is.
And UNLESS these are domestic operations involving current CIA officers then precisely how would revealing his identity expose any current LEGAL (i.e. non-domestic) operations or agents? ONLY if the agents involved were currently employed or passing on classified materials on Obama illicitly would such issues need to be raised.
If this crowd response to Hillary’s gaffe are any indication…swiftboating Obama will be very effective. It’s seems very few of you have the ability to recognize the difference between fact and judgment.
It’s driving me absolutely bonkers to hear. I had a professor that I studied with for many years after getting my degree. He was a student of korzybski. He once said “what is more factual a biography or an autobiography.” His answer…biography because there is only one factual perspective regarding the inner thoughts and intentions of another. We are in dangerous territory when we attribute intensionality to others without being willing to listen to the person who spoke the thoughts.
Do you all not realize that this is the same kind of judgmental behavior that causes racism, lynchings, sexism, and war??? My god. How can such intelligent people be so damn unwilling to admit that the only thing drivinhg this bus is emotion and judgment.
It really makes me sick to my stomach. Your response to Hillary’s gaffe, makes me even more worried for Obama. You fail to see it.
And why do you fail to see that it was like yelling fire in a crowded theater?
Huh, do you mean you believe she only said what she said as a part of a nomination timeline discussion rather than an planned incendiary statement? I don’t. I think what she said the editorial board is exactly what she meant to say. And, it was a very, very bad act.
gaffe my ass
Looks like we could have this debate forever. What are you saying she “meant to say?” If you take the low road implication, you are filling in or inferring something that she really didn’t say. How ever unfortunate the hint or implication, the sentence (paragraph/answer) is about the calendar. It may be a Dean moment. But she only said what she said.
Her intent will never be clear, but the reaction was, I think, predictable.
The reaction of reactionaries is predictable. The human race will not be saved until we stop reacting and start thinking planning and problem solving. I have just had it. If really scares me. It truly puts fear in my heart that so few of you can see that the behavior of assigning her intentions is as dangerous when done to her as it would be done to Obama. Can you not see that??? My god. We are in great trouble. I really think that we have not taught people the difference between fact and emotion.
You may “feel” something…but feelings are not ever, ever, facts.
That may be…but to read in such a really malevolent intent is very disturbing to me. I thought the reaction to Dean was over the top, also. In the context of the Kennedy family etc etc etc. a deliberate raising of that tragic sceptre is really a leap I cannot make.
I don’t think she was being malevolent. She was being careless and thoughtless and over the top. She has tended to do that in the last couple of months and it has not served her well. By not thinking before she speaks she has been very foolish. That, however, does not diminish the pain this remark brought out and especially after the Teddy news. Just too much.
Hey thanks!
I never commented on “intentionality”. I just think HRC is stupid and insensitive for saying what she did.
I suggest you pick up Jeffery Feldman’s book – “Outright Barbarous” and then we can talk about later…
That’s another one in my stack – am putting off reading it until I am feeling very calm :)
I agree. Knowing that the reaction would be predictable to most people, why would she keep going there? In what way would it benefit her or her campaign? There must be a reason that she said it numerous times.
I dunno.
That brings back Eli’s scenario…vote for me, because it’s safer…I’m the one that can get elected. Her words were chosen carefully and repeated at different times during her campaign in one way or another. I believe that on some level it is a campaign tactic. Now the whole world is talking about the danger to Obama.
I truly understand…. I listen to Jeffery’s interviews on Action Point every week….. at times it unsettles me and makes me worry…
Ian is Upstairs.
Actually think that is best…. it is out there in front…. in the bright sunshine….. in full view…. and hopefully could reduce the odds
Damn, if we just believed what YOU say we’d be fine. You have a right to be afraid.
No I did not take the low road. HRC did. I took what she said as exactly what she meant – just like I did with the sniper fire on the runway. She said it happened. It did not. I believe she intentionally misled. She claims she just had a fuzzy memory, despite telling the story numerous times. Which do you believe – the lie or the cover up about the lie?
Quackin like a duck over here boss.
Dropping this topic until Tuesday…… going to the home improvement store… see ya later
“what is more factual a biography or an autobiography.” His answer…biography because there is only one factual perspective regarding the inner thoughts and intentions of another.
And you accept that as fact? Even if you agree with his point of view, wouldn’t it be “most likely to be factual.” Obviously there are all sorts of variables which make the question problematic for an absolutely correct answer. One very objective, analytical person may well write a more factual autobiography than a biography considering the opinions of 100 dolts, written by a subjective author. Anyway, it seems to me unavoidable that, when the stated facts to do not seem reasonable, people of all persuasions will speculate on the truth.
“Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?”
guru Sai Baba
Though she has now apologized for that very strange and tasteless comment to the Argus-Leader, this was not the first time she’s said it. This from her interview with TIME Managing Editor Richard Stengel, published March 6:
TIME: Can you envision a point at which–if the race stays this close–Democratic Party elders would step in and say, “This is now hurting the party and whoever will be the nominee in the fall”?
CLINTON: No, I really can’t. I think people have short memories. Primary contests used to last a lot longer. We all remember the great tragedy of Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June in L.A. My husband didn’t wrap up the nomination in 1992 until June. Having a primary contest go through June is nothing particularly unusual.
Her excuse now is that the Kennedys have been “much on my mind these days” with the illness of Senator Edward Kennedy, but that doesn’t explain what brought it to mind more than two months ago.
Where is Action Point? I listen to a Denver Station everymorning at work. Jay Marvin, Like that guy. and sometimes Charles Goyette. He is good also.
Same wording…”we all remember”..
Besides that, RFK never made it past the 5th of June, when he had already won the primary the day before.
Its all a strangely manipulative ruthless way to grasp at straws to justify ultimately going all the way to the Convention…
I think you are right. I think she will try and go allthe way, the SD need to setp in and change that.
thank you
KPHX on Sundays from 11-2 MST (we don’t do that daylight saving stuff)
KPHX
http://www.groupnewsblog.net/
Wow.
Wow indeed. Been gone most of day. Checked back in here. Read post, comments, looked at Kathryn’s link. Wow.
Thank you. That is emotionally and intellectually searing.
Agreed.
But people don’t understand why she’s satyed in the campaign. It’s her right to stay in, but people wonder why she’s stayed in. She’s not a quitter. Sometimes that characteristic is admirable (e.g. football games) sometimes it isn’t.
She understands this is an historic campaign. Maybe she believes that if she drops out, it reflects badly on her.
At the very least, “staying in” is taking a tremendous toll on Senator Clinton.
But your perception is your reality.
I was at a workshop shortly after the release of the movie A Beautiful Mind. I had read the book, had not seen the movie. Time and again throughout the workshop, people mentioned their perception as if it were reality. I came to the conclusion that perception is reality in some sense, and used the example of John Nash in A Beautiful Mind. His perception was his reality. Doesn’t mean it was shared reality, but it was his reality.
I like reality checks, because I realize that I am not infallible. I love e.g. EmptyWheel because she (mostly) bases her analysis on evidence. She notices the underlying reality even when others are trying to spin an alternate fantasy as reality.