Signed. Sealed. Delivered.

Thanks, David!

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=1356

Each trust they violate deminishes the impact of the last.

We need to tell Congress to create a whole new branch of gov’t. whose sole responsibility will be to investigate this admin. There’s just too much to be investigated, and it’d cause gridlock.

Oh the fearsome investigators of the Democratic Congress, about to be unleashed!

And if they should somehow come across further impeachable offenses on the domestic propaganda front, we know what they will do…. nothing!

oh, and maybe the $200 billion authorized to continue the wars contains some loose change for domestic propaganda purposes?

They know how to stop such travesties – defund the war, start impeachment proceedings. these investigations are just window dressing, kabuki, red herrings, busy work, masking their fundamental complicity in the whole project.

diminishes. Someday I’ll learn to use preview.

Oh, I trust them alright.

To lie, cheat and steal.

Even so, it’s important that people know what’s been done and by whom.

I have corruption fatigue.

Since then, nothing has been heard, though of course these matters sometimes take awhile to bubble upward. But in the meantime, even more has more emerged, including the revelation from ThinkProgress that the Pentagon was coaching its right-wing “think tank” allies to lie about the program, as well as today’s revelation that Gen. David Petraeus was also an avid participant.

All of this makes congressional hearings not just a compelling idea but absolutely necessary.

i’d love real hearings on this matter – but your petition/letter rests the assumption that the congressional committee hearings are something other than an exercise in kabuki. i see no evidence of that – as i told senator reid when he was here.

committee hearings are a big joke. would it be possible to call the dems in congress on this and tell them we expect real and effective hearings? not just on this matter but whenever hearings are held

for example, did you see yesterday’s senate armed services committee hearing with petraeus and odierno? the parts i did watch were infuriating. petraeus was permitted to sit there and lie without anyone calling him on it – on the contrary the only accurate way i have to describe how they were treated by the committee involves a generous sex act.

I’ll bet they all looked stern though just I told you the other day they would. The Dems are beginning (?) to look like the 3 stooges.

It doesn’t matter what you do,it’s how you look when you’re doing it.
marketing and spin and you can accomplish anything.
from the illusion of success to the pragmatism of failure,you have to find a conclusion that fits somewhere.
Like “there’s no success like failure and failure is no success at all”.
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW?
That seems to be what’s happening anymore.Everybody’s trying to decipher the code and try to draw somekind of conclusion that makes sense.You need waders to get through the bullshit.

I predict that Bulldog Levin will take on the Generals just like he took on Petraeus and Odierno yesterday. In other words, he will sniff their ass and wag his tail. Sorry for the image.

Honest to God I think the next Congress is going to have to set up a “speed dating” mechanism to investigate all these scandals. Five minutes of intense questioning and evasion, then the bell rings and everyone shifts one hearing room over.

Fortunately they can all be found guilty and sentenced in one big Reverend-Moon-wedding style event.

Should we just let them slide? Or should we seize what opportunities we can to raise public awareness of this?

Go after them. It is despicable.

All of this makes congressional hearings not just a compelling idea but absolutely necessary.

As long as they can get people who are willing to tell the truth when they testify before a committee. Talking to generals like Petraeus is a waste of time. It’s all spin, all the time.

Oh, and signed the letter.

Should we just let them slide? Or should we seize what opportunities we can to raise public awareness of this?

This raises two questions. 1) Why isn’t the Congress leading on this? Why do they need to be pushed into something they should be doing on their own? 2) Are pseudo-hearings going to raise awareness or rationalize wrongdoing?

Sorry for the image.

Well, you oughta be. Ewwwwww. Now you’ve upset the gentleman at his lunch. *g*

This and the last post form an interesting juxtaposition. This post reminds us of exactly why only military men can talk seriously about military matters is wrong.

Should we just let them slide? Or should we seize what opportunities we can to raise public awareness of this?

of course not!

my point is that by not also addressing the uselessness of the hearings that they have had, we are letting them slide on a much more fundamental issue – one that we must address if hearings on pysops generals are to have any positive effect.

we’ve had over a year’s worth of hearings from congressional committees chaired by dems. it’s no longer a matter of the jury’s still out, or it takes time to ramp up investigations. the committee hearings have sucked (i hope someone with a better ability to find adequate language to describe how really bad they have been will help me out here) – there has been no effective oversight of this administration by this congress. and worse, we haven’t held our congress accountable. i’m proposing that it’s time we do so.

To add to my 17, we need Senators who are willing to ask pertinent questions. I’m real tired of the circle jerk/kabuki routine.

This poor overloaded congress. They can’t investigate very much at all when they lack a department of justice. Guess that was the plan.

Why isn’t Congress leading? Good question, on this and many issues. I don’t think it’s any surprise to the folks here that the Democrats in Congress sometimes need a spine infusion from their constituents. It’s unfortunate that that’s the reality we face, but it won’t change until they realize that it’s not only necessary to be aggressive against this lawbreaking bunch of ideologues but the only way Democrats can win against them.

In the meantime, sometimes it simply is going to be up to the people to lead.

2) Are pseudo-hearings going to raise awareness or rationalize wrongdoing?

exactly.

have you and i been watching an entirely different set of hearings this past year? it’s not about spine infusion.

Petraeus failed to train a “huge Iraqi security force” independent of US support, and American forces were not drawn down. Rather, in 2007, President Bush promoted Petraeus to a four-star general in command of the Iraq occupation, directing him to oversee the “surge” — raising troop numbers by more than 20,000. One of Petraeus’s first acts as commander was to meet with the Pentagon’s cadre of military analysts.

http://thinkprogress.org/wonkr…..ropaganda/

My bold So Petraeus failed to train the Iraqi’s much like Bernie Kerik

Retired US Army General Ricardo Sanchez also criticized Kerik’s performance in Iraq, stating:

“I would be hard-pressed to identify a major national-level success that his organization accomplished in that time. They’d get tips and they’d go and actually raid a whorehouse. Their focus becomes trying to do tactical police operations in the city of Baghdad, when in fact there is a much greater mission that they should be doing, which is training the police. He is a very energetic guy. He is very confident – overconfident to an extent – and he is very superficial in his understanding of the requirements of his job. His whole contribution was a waste of time and effort.”[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Kerik

Is training the still unready Iraqis some kind of fast track to GOP success and promotion.

signed and sent my outrage their way.

Thank you firepups!

Maybe,You look me in the eye when I’m talking to you,you god damned lying bastard,will help!

In the meantime, sometimes it simply is going to be up to the people to lead.

of course it is. no disagreement from me on this.

what i’m challenging (or attempting to challenge) is the direction. i’m not interested in pretending that the hearings the dems have been conducting are anything other than an act, a pretense, a deliberate attempt to deceive.

what i think you are proposing is we demand some kabuki on the matter of the psyops generals. but i want the real thing – no more kabuki.

The Dems have played go along to get along for so long they’ve forgotten how to lead. While the Rethugs smack the Dems down every time the Dems give in the Dems just keep on keepin’ on. Business as usual. They’ve also forgotten what governing is. And that there’s more to our country than the economic well being of the 1 percenters.

Waxman has been doing some good work but he’s just one guy and one committee, and while the work has been good the hearings have been less so. Most House hearings are a waste of time. There are not enough Democrats who ask good sharp questions and there are way too many Republican goofs to defuse and diffuse the focus. The Senate though has been a real disappointment. There are flashes of real questioning and then it’s gone without any follow up or action. Indeed there is often inaction or full scale retreat. It was not the Senate but the House (and then mostly by accident) who stood up to Bush on FISA (although Hoyerand Pelosi seem determined to reverse this one vitory).

Tell Harry to hold the hearings and put Petraeus behind bars or we will push for a South African style truth commission after Bush is out where you must confess to everything or risk getting prosecuted for anything that you leave out.
I’m sure such a commission revealing the whole truth could ruin a few DEM political careers and cause a few bankruptcies among defense contractors like KBR.

Digg this and Spotlight

Well, my feeling is that the only way to make that happen is to make the public realize they’ve been the targets of an illegal Pentagon military operation. People look at this issue and just go, “So what? It’s just the Pentagon doing PR, isn’t it?” Well, no, it’s a hell of a lot more than that — it’s not just illegal, it’s an outrageous violation of public trust.

I won’t wait for the Democrats in Congress to get that message out. That’s up to us. But the only way those Democrats are going to get beyond the kabuki is if there is sufficient public outrage.

I should add spines to my little fairy tale of the frogs and the birds from the other day:

all this talk of making ‘better Democrats’ is like talking about making better frogs, frogs with feathers, and spines, and wings coming off the spines! so that they could fly, and sing! and build their nests out of twigs, and mate for life, to members of their own sex if they wanted to – why what wonderful frogs those would be!

these are birds, actually, and if you want to support birds you’ve got to stop trying to turn frogs into birds.

and while it is true that a couple frogs like Feingold or Dodd have patches of feathers on their hides, and sing a few chirps sometimes, there are no birds of this sort of feather in Washington DC. Those few (D)’s of a birdy nature would be free to strategically vote with birds, if there were any birds, especially if pressured to do so by online grassroots efforts or what have you.

lol. that would be a start.

here’s one my comments/questions for senator reid when he was here (i was trying to be polite):

In response to Senator Harry Reid @ 49

we have conducted scores of hearings in the Arm Services Comm, Judiciary Comm, and other committees on President’s what I believe are illegal activities

I’ve watched many of these hearings – either on CSPAN or by committee webstream. And I have to say that by and large the hearings have been a great disappointment. There are a few stand out Senators (Senator Feingold and Whitehouse come to mind), but the majority of the questioning has been pretty lame. Senators frequently miss hearings, or only attend for a short while (in order to get their time before the camera). They are frequently ill-prepared, ask lame (or no) follow up questions and are too often apologist for the worst of the Bush administration’s dangerous, illegal and immoral actions.

As a quick and recent example – in 2004, Senator Schumer defended the administration’s use of torture in the Senate Judiciary Committee. Then, on April 30 of this year, during a SJC hearing on secret law, a Republican Senator played a recording of Senator Schumer’s previous statement. How in the world can Democrats be entrusted to defend our country’s most basic values (to say nothing of our common defense), with actions like this?

Received a junk e-mail from Jane a little while ago and signed the petition. (Nice touch using the first name in the salutation – you guys are organized.) Awhile back I wrote about this. In any other presidential administration, this would be appalling behavior. In this one, it’s par for the course.

I suspect Congress’ reaction to this will be as tepid as it has been for Bush’s other lawbreaking, but one can hold out hope, I guess.

During his brief FDL visit, Harry “Crickets” Reid didn’t respond to my plea to do something about Joe Lieberman, a traitor the Democratic party.

*(others have since pointed out that committee asssignments can’t be altered mid-session, but the broader point stands.)

I think I have probably sent Harry 5 or 6 e-mails complaining about HoJo and I will continue this until something is done. It is disgusting. We put up with enough from these Dems in DC – I don’t think we have to stand for traitors, too.

I wonder if Lieberman is still invited to the Democratic caucus when they discuss strategy or do they just send a feed to John McCain and Mitch McConnell?

Did the army Generals given the talking points by the Pentagon get any talking points about the KBR rape case just in case they were asked about it?

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19299185190

Were the Generals asked about nonmilitary matters and were there opinions coached by the Pentagon on those subjects too? Sorry I don’t know because I didn’t watch those rah rah the war shows much after the third year of victory in Iraq.

A little OT but this from americablog

“Hillary’s top fundraiser admits dragging out nomination until June may jeopardize Obama’s chances against McCain”

Hillary’s top campaign fundraising official said in an interview that there’s a “risk” that Hillary’s political and financial supporters won’t get behind Obama in time for him to win in November if she’s passed over for the veep slot….

“But there’s a risk that if she isn’t invited on the ticket, Hillary’s political and financial supporters may not feel compelled to be as integrated and involved in the Obama campaign in order to provide the maximum support that he’ll need to prevail in November.”

Isn’t that special.

How in the world can Democrats be entrusted to defend our country’s most basic values (to say nothing of our common defense), with actions like this?

The answer to this question is why I sound so pessimistic these days.

but the majority of the questioning has been pretty lame. Senators frequently miss hearings, or only attend for a short while (in order to get their time before the camera). They are frequently ill-prepared, ask lame (or no) follow up questions and are too often apologist for the worst of the Bush administration’s dangerous, illegal and immoral actions.

Selise this sounds like a series of Posts you could do a top ten of dumbest comments by a Senator, a top ten of Senators in the tank to the people they are questioning. top ten softball make you feel good to be a warcriminal questions, etc!

Obama should just say right now No to Hilary

the only way those Democrats are going to get beyond the kabuki is if there is sufficient public outrage.

where is the outrage at what the dems have been doing to us all year?

again, i’m not disagreeing about the issue of the psyops. i just disagree with you about how to get beyond the kabuki. i think we have to call the dems on it every single time they do it. no more pretending that we don’t see exactly what they are doing.

imo that’s exactly what the petition does – by ignoring the kabuki, we’re pretending we don’t see it. is it possible to include a line to indicate that we aren’t asking for more of the same, that we want a genuine inquiry?

i don’t understand why it is so hard to hold our own party accountable. are we afraid to say anything bad about the dems for fear the right wing nuts will use it to discourage dem voting? or is it something else?

This is the other reason I sound so pessimistic these days – will this sort of pointless ass-biting ever stop? Clinton is going to be in the race until it’s clear that she can’t win, which is either when Obama has an absolute majority of elected delegates or the convention has come and she hasn’t convinced enough superdelegates to vote for her. I expect no less out of any candidate.

I make a counter-declaration, with just as much proof behind it as all the whining I hear about how this is hurting Obama’s chances – it won’t make a bit of difference. For every Clinton supporter who won’t vote for Obama, there will be at least one new voter who got into this race because either Obama or Clinton found him (or her) and got him registered. This contested primary has probably added as many voters to the rolls as any GOTV effort. Most of them will probably remain Democrats, at least in this election.

Now, can we go back to biting the asses that really deserve it?

Liberal Pundits Offer Unprecedented Apology

For What It’s Worth

Roger that.

I agree with you but this virtual blackmail that Hillary is conducting is to say the least unseemly and should get her a good smacking from the party. She seems to have gone completely off the rails.

I couldn’t do what Waxman does! I would have broken that gavel right over Issa’s head.That rude sonofabitch.Johnson keeps laying on the bullshit and Waxman calls him on it and Issa runs interference.They were just thumbing their nose at Waxman.
Remember when the repubs had the majority?.They made the dems have their hearings in the basement!

The recent oil co hearing was a joke. The dems huffed and puffed for a while, then they packed their briefcases and bid all a good day. They didn’t even expose the egregious legislation that Republicans put forth that benefited oil co’s. such as forgiving the royalty payments for oil co use of gov. land.

“Selise this sounds like a series of Posts you could do a top ten of dumbest comments by a Senator, a top ten of Senators in the tank to the people they are questioning. top ten softball make you feel good to be a warcriminal questions, etc!”

Unfortunately you can do ten questions on every hearing within the first hour of ineffective questioning, lack of followup, rhetoric, and all around bloviating.

Because one of her advisers acknowledges the possibility that Obama’s chances might be hurt, this is what you take as proof of blackmail?

Looks to me like pessimism is justified.

I didn’t see the hearing, selise. Maybe they’re just letting him lie so he can be charged with that too?

“Stovepipe” Lieberman.

change the frickin’ locks on the caucus room at least.

There have been a number of articles written in the last few days that her campaign is pushing hard for her to be the VP – that even Bill is in the background doing the same thing. Then some have said that her voters won’t vote for Obama – hint, hint, hint. She has already undermined Obama in a number of ways and will continue. Writers are calling it her “nuclear Option” and she seems determined to use it. Disgusting.

Don’t worry punaise. I recall that an Abramhoff associate got the wireless contract for the capitol. Straight to NSA and the rethugs.

Maybe we can use Lieberman as a plant. Feed him OUR talking points.

Maybe there is a plan. Hearings before the election to make Americans aware of what has happened under this administration, but no prosecutions before Bush is gone so they can’t be pardoned. ???

Maybe we can use Lieberman as a plant.

they’ll have to ficus over there so they don’t have to ficus over here.

AmericaBlog;

Could Hillary and Bill even survive the Vice Presidential vetting process?

Hillary always claims she’s fully vetted, but that’s not true. And, the vetting process includes the spouse.

Basically, this means Obama’s vetting team would have access to all the Clinton’s records — all the stuff that hasn’t become public. The Clintons would have to open up the library funders and foundation donors. They’d have to name everyone who has paid Bill Clinton to speak or do any other work. They’d investigate all of Bill’s dealings with Ron Burkle, for example. And, for sure, they’d have to investigate a lot of other rumors that swirl about.

The Clintons can keep their own secrets when they run the show. But, this won’t be their show. They won’t have Howard Wolfson and his team stonewalling reporters who are asking prying questions.

Nixon hadn’t been charged with anything when Ford pardoned him. Shrub can issue a blanket pardon for each and every one of these people. Doesn’t mean The Hague can’t go after them.

don’t think so… because it doesn’t explain the fellatio.

And what you get back is a plea for money, right?

The point is to get a bunch of short funny segments together to go on You Tube cause if the force of our disapproval won’t give work to get Congress on the job working.
Well then lets try embarrassing them, we could use this to embarrass GOPers with voters back home and to get the Blue Dogs on the same page as the Democratic wing of the Democratic party.

Do you mean they are actually supposed to answer?
Well, I am surprised – I thought we were just yelling into the void to make us feel better. /s

I agree completely. Exposed to public ridicule and laughter is a great tool. Where to start?*g*

“The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing “
Edmund Burke
http://www.padfield.com/1997/goodmen.html

Nancy and Harry’s personal motto

I wonder if we could force Nancy and Harry’s hand if we leak that as a title for a book about this Congress older folks do worry about their legacy.

i’m listening to last week’s event with the cong. progressive caucus and iraq veterans against the war (cspan3). it is breaking my heart. it’s not just the testimony, it’s that so few members of even the progressive caucus showed up (5 or possibly 6?) to listen to these brave and honorable vets.

i’ve only heard a bit from the following:

adam kokesh – served with 1st marine regiment in fallujah, iraq.
sergoi kochergin – former scout/sniper with us marine corps in iraq
luis montalvan – former army officer in iraq worked with gen. petraeus

why wasn’t any of the info from this testimony used in yesterday’s SAS hearing?

Well I thought Selise was on to something.

OT Google Finance is being invaded by McCain trolls normally this stuff does not appear at the Toyota blog
http://finance.google.com/grou…..e588bc3944

@prime3: Please advise what Bill Clinton did during his presidency,
specifically, to improve the economy and get the cash required to pay
down the debt. Specifics, please. Other than riding on George Bush
Sr.’s flawless “war” that led to extreme consumer confidence.

Reply Reply with quote » Rate this post: Text for clearing space

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Date: Fri, May 23 2008 11:55 am
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Bill pushed a budget through Congress that paid down the debt so
that when Bush 2 came in we we actually had people talking about how
eliminating the National debt would be bad for the economy. Less debt
means a stronger Dollar which for Toyota shareholders is important a
high Dollar to a low Yen means higher profits.

In August 1993, Clinton signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act
of 1993, which passed Congress without a Republican vote. It cut taxes
for fifteen million low-income families, made tax cuts available to
90% of small businesses,[43] and raised taxes on the wealthiest 1.2%
of taxpayers.[44] Additionally, through the implementation of spending
restraints, it mandated the budget be balanced over a number of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton

Also
The bill, at the time, was based on unproved economic theory. Since
the Ronald Reagan administration, the American public was more
receptive to Reaganomics pursued during the 1980s. The theory behind
the bill was that federal budget deficits were more critical to
economic health than either the New Deal liberals or Reagan-era
conservatives wanted to admit. Both groups dismissed the importance of
the federal budget deficit.

The bill, which both raised taxes and cut government spending, has
been credited as the major cause behind the deficit reduction and
eventual surpluses during the 1990s, by sources such as the non-
partisan Congressional Budget Office. [2] The theory holds that
federal budget deficits increase both inflation and interest rates.
These two phenomena are widely known to cause economic stagnation.
[citation needed] Indeed, when inflation increases, often the Federal
Reserve will raise interest rates to contain the inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O…..ct_of_1993

Turn about is fair play so just what has Bush done right on the
economy?

- Hide quoted text -

I go by Prime3666 at google cause divide any prime by 3 you get a repeating decimal of .333 or .666 holy trinity, number of the beast I’m sure there is a pattern there to predict primes no luck yet.

Jane’s upstairs

Can you imagine taking the marketing side of the equation out of the picture? Hey,I can handle the truth!
When corporations run the government it’s called Fasism.
How’s that for getting rid of the kabuki.
Think Main Core!
You get to close to the truth and you could be just another accident statistic.
Fat,dumb and happy

What might have been nice too in addition to Winter Soldiers would have been a panel after Petraeus and Odierno made up of Juan Cole, Ali Fadhil and Sinan Antoon (two Iraqis who Charlie Rose had on his 5th anniversary of the war show and who went far in blowing out of the water his and the neocon’s narratives on Iraq and the war).

When no one challenges the Bush/Petraus narrative after a while it almost begins to seem as if there is something actually to it. That’s what makes testimony from people like these so important. They puncture the manufactured reasonableness of the official story and show how divorced from reality it and its promoters are.

When is Sibel Edmonds going to appear in front of these brave investigators, so eager to uncover the truth?

>crickets< </p>

yeah, thats right, never.

the charade of feeble, toothless, grandstanding, ineffectual investigations is now rather transparently just part of the Washington spin cycle.

It is a honeypot for those who strenuously need to convinve themselves that the Constitutional Republic, with all its checks and balances from 9th grade civics, still has a pulse.

And then its beginning to seem like the progressosphere is a honeypot for those who need to beleive that the system heeds any input unaccompanied by cash.

“Money doesn’t talk,it swears obcenities,propaganda,it’s all phoney!

this administration has chosen a policy for this country that values looking good over doing right. and as soon as you choose looking good over doing right you will fail miserably at both. it is what we are doing as a country right now, it is what our leadership is doing, and it is what the democratic party has done since it took power in 2006 when it decided that it would be more concerned with looking good than of doing right towards iraq in order to secure an advantage for the 2008 election. my apologies to members of the democratic party in the room, but it is clear to me that the policy of looking good over doing right has been established firmly by this administration and has poisoned not only the military culture but our entire society and political leadership as well.

— adam kokesh, served with 1st marine regiment in fallujah, iraq.

I was drafted,went to VietNam,got a couple of bronze stars,came home a wreck, and tried to get on with my life.
It is still very difficult to talk about it.You really have to hand it to those guys who can get up there in front of the world and tell their stories without loosing it.
More suicides than killed !! If that doesn’t tell it all nothing does.

“Just as Mcguire said, the American Liberty League was formed a few weeks later, and was on the front page of most New York and Washington D.C. papers. The American Liberty League read like a who’s who of corporate America. Some prominent capitalists that backed the American Liberty League were J.P. Morgan, The Warburg banking family , General Motors President John J. Rascob, President of Heinz inc. Howard Heinz, Irenee Du Pont, Nathan Miller from US Steel and many others. The plot was to receive financial backing particularly from J.P. Morgan banking.

Now this is where the Bush Family comes in. Later in the McCormack-Dickstein Committee Hearings the Hamburg-American Line was accused and found guilty of providing free passage to Germany of U.S. Journalists to write favourable reports on Nazism and is alleged to have brought Nazi spies and fascist sympathizers to the United States. Interestingly, the executive manager of the Hamburg-American line was none other than Prescott Bush, the grandfather of George W. Bush.

After hearing the McCormack-Dickstein Committee Press Release on November 24th of 1934, General Butler accused the committee of editing out the names of the business people he had linked to the plot in his testimonies. In a radio interview on the 17th of February, 1935 Butler said of the committee, “Like most committees it has slaughtered the little and allowed the big sharks to escape. The big sharks weren’t even called to testify. They were all mentioned in the testimony, why was all mention of these names suppressed from the testimony?”

Of the American Liberty League, Roosevelt said, “They steal the livery of great national ideals to serve discredited special interests…. This minority in business and industry… engage in vast propaganda to spread fear and discord among the people. They would gang up against the people’s liberties…. They seek the restoration of their selfish power…Our resplendent economic aristocracy does not want to return to that individualism of which they prate, even though the advantages under that system went to the ruthless and the strong. They realize that in 34 months we have built up new instruments of public power. In the hands of a people’s government this power is wholesome and proper. But in the hands of political puppets of an economic aristocracy, such power would provide shackles for the liberties of the people. Give them their way and they will take the course of every aristocracy of the past – power for themselves, enslavement for the public.”

http://www.themormonworker.org…..family.php

strider7 – i can’t even imagine what it takes to do what they did last week in front of members of congress, the public and the cameras. imo, we betray them and dishonor their courage if we ignore what they have to say.

Hear, here.

Cliff’s uptop with
Is John McCain As Healthy As The Media Are Saying?

Tell it, sporkovat!

So?

David, just a little bit more from the ‘people’ and Congress is going to get it?

Congress knows, quite clearly, as they have since 2006 exactly what the people want.

Congress does NOT want what the people want.

That does not serve their (selfish, arrogant and greedy) interests.

Oh, I know … they are ALL great and wonderful souls who are just a bit confused and a trifle spineless … we just need to make it worth their while …

No, David, we won’t give up or go away, but isn’t about time to rationally and reasonablly face the facts: Those who, supposedly, represent our interests are, generally, not concerned about what bothers us and they DO want us to STFU and go away …

The political class are covering their own … whatever letter (’D’ as well as ‘R’)is pinned to their too comfortable nickers and the only language which $peaks to them is preci$ely, and conci$ely, what sporkovat has $ugge$ted.

Do you have, in the interest of truth, justice, and fair play, any compelling evidence, of any kind or sort, whatsoever, to suggest otherwise?

Surely, you do not think them stupid?

Perhaps you think them cowering and frightened victims of massive blackmail?

Oh, we’ll keep trying to ‘reach’ them. But, as you think just a wee tad bit more might make the difference, I’d like to know precisely and concisely, just why you think so. As opposed to wishful thinking.

And before you think a number of us simply cycnical, consider that true cynicism is having the power to do something but choosing, instead, to ‘game’ the ’system’ and do very well by your friends AND yourself.

‘That’ is where Congress appears to be, so far as I am concerned.

I’m tired of excuses.

I’m tired of kabuki.

I’m tired of Congress being an equal part of ‘the problem’.

But mostly, I’m tired of hearing, ‘Just a little more will make ALL the difference …’

It will take a lot more, a whole lot more.

Maybe a real depression …

Maybe a ‘war’ with Iran …

Maybe starvation in the streets …

Maybe Bu$hvilles across the land …

Maybe even a ‘war’ right here (I know, impossible ‘Murkah is exceptional and ‘war’ happens to ‘other people’. Right…).

But, quess what, David?

Congress still won’t ‘get it’ because they have no real idea, nor any genuine care about what has happened to the people, the Constitution, the nation or the world.

If they did, then would we, collectively, be in this spot?

Congress aids and abetts the madness …

Collectively, Congress has NOTHING of which to be proud, but much of which to be ashamed.

Of course, they don’t see it that way, do they? What do you think they see?

I hope I didn’t give you the impression that their testimonies were unimportant for god’s sake.It’s one thing to aknowledge the roles that soldiers play,it’s another thing to ride on their names.To identify with them for political reasons.If these congressman were so god damned compasionate they’d stop this blood bath.Even now these soldiers are still pawns.Used for political recognition.
Who’s gonna be there when they come to grips with what they’ve done for the name of democracy.They drank the kool aid and chose to go.Military psy-ops is a very effective form of propaganda.Not to mention the media,religon,peer presure and the rest.That’s exactly the point.
After the sixties and Viet Nam,I seriously thought that it could never happen again.America became complacent and guess who was waiting in the wings? Cheney and Rumsfeld to fire up the military machine.
It’s like you said,we have to find a way to stop the propaganda.We’re saturated with religous and political dogma,history is munipulated to fit the story.There’s big money in lies.

Well said,

There is also, obviously, HUGE money to be made in ‘war’time.

In Vietnam, in Irak and, potentialy, in Iran …

Maybe the message will get through, THIS time, strider …

Those of us of a certain age have blood enough on our hands …

But the real supporters of war (with other people’s children, fathers, mothers, aunts and uncles) have NOTHING on their conscience at all … just obscene riches …

If ‘Murkah will not bring the WAR CRIMMINALS to justice, then we’ve also sold our soul … for a pittance, and lost our ‘democracy’ in the ‘bargain’ as well.

There MUST an accounting.

The only thing I got out of VietNam was the privilage of spitting on a generals’ shoe.Believe me you ain,t shit until you’ve spit on a generals’ shoe

I hope I didn’t give you the impression that their testimonies were unimportant for god’s sake

oh no. just the opposite.

i was just trying to agree with you when you said:

You really have to hand it to those guys who can get up there in front of the world and tell their stories without loosing it.

and to express my gratitude for what they have done by testifying in such a powerful way. whatever atrocities they may (or may not) have participated in, nothing can take away from their courage and their desire to make things right now… for that they have my gratitude and my respect.

wish i could say the same about my congress. but they don’t have the guts to question the generals – let alone spit on their shoes. (good for you!)

Randy Newman puts it as well as anyone:
Deep in the field a lone soldier stands
With mud on his boots and blood on his hands
They left him behind to bury the dead
And to say a few words on behalf of the “leadership”
Pardon me boys if I slip off my pack
And sit for awhile with you, but i’d like to explain
Why you fine young men had to be blown apart
To defend this mudhole
Now our country,though it’s quite far away
Found itself jeopardized,endangered dear,
By these very gooks who lie here beside you
Forever near, forever near
I’d like to express my deep admiration for your
For your courage under fire and you willingness to die
For your country boys, we won’t forget we won’t forget