So, BT!

right.

great post and it is something obama can cut and paste and commit to memory

I’ve been telling you this for years!

I respect McCain’s service but someone like Raven, or Jim Webb, probably have a better feel of combat on the ground. John Kerry has a better feel. Joe Galloway who writes for McClatchy probably has better understanding and cares more than McCain.

Raven was a remf truckdriver.

Raven for VP!

Absolutely right.

I think there’s a wonderfully effective television advertisement embodied in this post. Paging Howie, Jane, silent lurkers who make ads for a yet-to-be officially finalized Democratic presidential nominee…

Leave McBush alone.

It’s all he’s got, and he’s gonna whip that veteran/POW status like a rented mule until November.

So get used to it. Gonna be lots more where that came from.

Wait a minute. If I follow this logic correctly(someone correct me if I’m wrong), then that means that only racial minorities have the right to discuss racism in this country, that only poor people can discuss poverty, etc. etc.

What’s remf?

If you kept going with the list of all those who had no right to criticize McBush (Bush himself also failed to finish his time in the service) according to McBush, it might very well include everybody but McBush himself.

Well, then he’ll have to take criticism from me because I am a citizen. I think it’s part of my job description, evaluating whether or not a candidate has the best interests of servicemen and women at heart.
And McCain does not.
Regard them any way you want, but give them their due.
They aren’t all sons of admirals, and they can’t all marry heiresses, you know.
What a brittle fucking idiot.

Oh PLEASE!

That disqualifies over three quarters of the current Republican party!
Imagine the deafening silence.
By all means McStain, tell the rest of your whacked out political operatives to STFU.
I’m waiting…….

Talk about self- absorption. Even a second of thought should told him that wasn’t not where he wanted to go.

Well he might of just lost the Yellow Elephant vote.

rear echelon motherfucker, they call em fobbies now (forward observation bases) Jar heads call em pouges , people other than grunts.

It’s the identity politics they love to bemoan.

You’d have to add John Warner to that list, and he managed to sign on to this bill.

So was Lori Ann Piestewa.

Galloway for sure, but he’s not a vet.

Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Roy Blunt, Jeb Bush, Karl Rove, Rudy Guiliani — not to mention Mitt Romney, Charlie Crist, Bobby Jindal, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson — and of course Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, Laura Ingraham, Glenn Reynolds and pretty much every other right wing blowhard and elected Republican

Honestly, I’d take that trade.

Well, it’s one of my little “issues” with Iraq. Everyone there is a “combat vet” when it suits these fuckers.

Yep. They wouldn’t. That’s the point.

Oh. Does that mean that you were around the fighting, but not diectly involved? (I’m completely ignorant of all things military.)

I will not accept from Senator Obama, who did not feel it was his responsibility to serve our country in uniform, any lectures on my regard for those who did

And he shows this regard for them by voting against a new GI bill that would bring it more in line with the old GI bill. Maybe US troops would be better off if he didn’t show so much regard for them.

And many others in both parties. But it seems like many of the loudest voices come from Republican Chickhawks or the current generation of Yellow Elephants.

I think McCain blew it on this one. Not all that many voters have any actual understanding of the draft and the role of the military service after WWII and before Vietnam. It’s been proven in a number of elections that most voters don’t really care if anyone served in the military. McCain just sounded unnecessarily nasty.

What voters should be helped to realize is that there is a vast difference between those who are eager to go to war and who have never served themselves or have anything personal at stake and those who have never served and are very reluctant to send other peoples’ children to war. In

People on duty now have to be scratching their heads about McCains’ rant when Obama is seeking improved benefits for them and McCain is touting his service as a basis for denying them benefits.

I know he wasn’t but he had his ass out there.

this wasnt about military affairs, this issue was about veterans benefits.
mcsame was not only flashing a shiny object he was changing the subject, and you kinda missed that and bought his switcheroo.
veterans benefits be different that military affairs; albeit it would still be bullshit argument.

I try to not get overconfident usually, and we always need to remain on offense, but Obama is going to spank McKeating so hard (except in a few small regions).

Several polls have come out in recent days showing Obama with nearly double-digit leads in big “swing” states (we need to retire the swing state concept), including SurveyUSA showing Obama with a 9% lead in OH.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/196676.php

A blow-out would be nice, so more of us can spend more energy on Blue America races.

Supporting the war on campus.

If you ask me, John McBush’s criticism of Obama was meant to distract us from the real issue: Obama asked for an explanation of why McBush isn’t supporting the troops with this bill and I would also like to hear that explanation as his constituent. Since he represents me in the Senate, I think AZMatt and I deserve an answer regardless of whether we personally served, or any of our relatives personally served, for that matter, or not.

McCain needs to tell us why he was found unfit for a star twice before
he pisses and moans about anyone’s service. Once you registered for the draft you became a REMF.

You are exactly right and McCain didn’t want to be there in the Senate and be seen as a loser.

About 80% of the people who serve in any modern war are support and logistics. Around the fighting was fairly relative in Vietnam. Understand that the infantry was out in the shit all the time but even their numbers were overestimated. Convoys were subject to mines and ambushes but at least you didn’t sleep in the bush (outside the wire). In Iraq almost no one sleeps outside the wire. They go out on night ops but it’s not like what the grunts in Nam, Korea or WWII did.

McCain should know that making military service central will cause George W. Bush’s privileged enlistment and gappy service record to be revisited.

say again, over.

(RA here)

Hugh – I think he was out in AZ when the vote took place, playing eeny, meeny, miney mo with his VP possibilities. He did not vote at all. Him and Sen. Kennedy, but I think we can give Teddy a pass on that one.

But, but, but…what about the “civilian” leadership that sends those in uniform into harms way???

I guess McCain believes in a Military Junta in “civies”…

fukin a, at the Drang

Except for a few really gung ho types (see John Kerry), almost everyone did what the computers said and went where the computers sent them. Anyone who was in for two or four years was subject to doing whatever they were ordered, as opposed to Dick Cheney, who never was.

McShut-the-f*ck-up!

Okay, now you’ve done it! Now I have to ask what an REMF is!

There is a level of respect that I hold for anyone who raised their hand and stepped forward. You never really knew where you would end up. Ask the guys in the 107th Signal Company, RI National Guard. They didn’t think they would end up in Can Tho!

I would like to see a stat estimating what proportion of voters are [1] military veterans and [2] within that cohort, combat theatre veterans.

(Maybe even further stratified by Democrat vs Repu’ublicist.)

I bet it’s pretty small. Is McBu’ush gonna claim that the vast majority of voters have no say on military issues by virtue of not having been in?

what an asshole

See above

Rear Echelon Motherfucker

Short for rear eschelon mother fucker… term of endearment 1965-75.

I guess anyone that has never worn a uniform shouldn’t have a right to vote either, since those that get elected might not have worn a uniform and, the world according to McCain, is that they should have no opinion. In fact, Senators and Representatives who never wore a uniform should not be able to vote on bills involving the military at all. That is really what he’s saying. He just dissed everybody.

well, if only vets can talk about military matters… then i’m going to listen to the vets coming up on cspan3. from last week:

Iraq War Veterans Accounts
Congressional Progressive Caucus

Members of Iraq Veterans Against the War talked about their experiences in Iraq. Among the topics they addressed were hardships experienced by military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, equipment and combat conditions, as well as the quality of mental health issues

I wonder what Pat Tillman would say to McCain.

I agree. Then there were those who couldn’t have their valuable lives interrupted. Like young Republicans today, they argued that the war needed to be fought, but there was some other class of people who needed to do it, or were too dumb to avoid it.

He would say STFU.

It is just McCain losing his temper in public and being hailed a hero
for it. He is stuck in a very bad place and is too far gone for prime
time. He is one of those types you try to feel for and get your face
ripped of for it. McCain is what Dubya would be if he had gone over.

Thing is, McCain has previously defended Cheney & the rest of the BushCo chickenhawks from criticism that they didn’t serve.

That’s out, I guess.

It’s hard not to feel very confident when Sen. Gaffe Dispenser (R-AZ) issues idiotic statements on a daily basis.

But it’s like Christy said in ‘06 — we have to just bury them!

Well, again, that combat vets is pretty subjective. The “real” way is if someone has a CIB (Combat Infantry Badge) Army or CAR (Combat Action Ribbon) Jar Heads. That leaves out a whole lot of people. When I was in Korea you had to have 3 certified firefights and be in a specific locale to get a CIB. Also, for these awards you had to carry and infantry MOS. It’s all pretty complicated and here’s my take. Those of us that were there know what we did and where we were. My respect for people who bore the brunt of the battle is endless.

Breaking news: McCain’s health papers reveal that he is really only 39.

Yes, I stand corrected. McCain was against it but was not present for the vote. Obama and Clinton were for but also not present for the vote.

http://www.senate.gov/legislat…..vote=00127

“So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself.”

Former Rep and future yellow elephant chickenhawk jailbird Tom Delay.

Humm. Last time I checked we had a Constitutional mandate to have civilians lead the military. There is no requirement for military service as a predicate for the presidency.

Non veterns: one more set of people Mc$ame does not want to talk to.

I wonder what Pat Tillman’s mother has to say to McCain’s attitude! Does she think that those fighting with her now dead son deserve veteran’s benefits?

I need one too Ann….

AS the ex-wife of a Vietnam vet, as the daughter of two WWII Vets, as the sister of a Vietnam Vet, as the niece of a WWII, Korean & Vietnam war Vet….. I think I can ask and demand answers.

What the WWII GI bill did for my life is amazing. Both parents received advanced degrees, went from blue collar family to white collar professionals.
The calculated return on investment for the WWII GI bill was for every $1.00 invested, a return of $7.00.

What I see is now going on the 4th generation of college educated professionals contributing to America….

39 what?
Or maybe I should as, 39 of what?

I guess simply my larger point, Raven, is that the vast majority of Americans have never worn the military uniform. That does not disqualify people from political participation w/respect to military issues.

And, I only said “combat theatre,” which would also include a lot of relatively safe pencil pushers. I too respect anyone who signed up, regardless.

I hadn’t heard that before. I didn’t know it was possible to lower the esteem in which I hold that bastard.

Do they deserve nice weddings?

My father was in the Pacific as a Marine during WW2, 90mm anti-aircraft artty. Usually when the shells were going up the bombs were coming down. Somehow that didn’t count as combat. He did go up onetime as the rear gunner in the Kingfisher float-plane that got jumped by 2 Zeros. He opted for staying on the ground after that.

Your explanations are really helpful for understanding military issues. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Breaking news: McCain’s health papers reveal that he is really only 39.

LOL Yes, the reports are saying he’s in good health, oh and he has high cholesterol, a history of melanoma what? times 2, still suffers from reduced mobility secondary to trauma experienced during his captivity, and he’s 71. He also has trouble distinguishing Sunni from Shia, is still fighting the Vietnam war in Iraq, and has a terminal case of flipflopitis but other than that he’s fine.

I turned 18 in 1973 and the draft was essentially over so never served in the military myself. I did 2 stints in the Peace Corps and feel that I have served my country in another way.

joke heard on radio…..

McCain doesn’t know his Shia from Shinola …. you can boo now

Senator McCain…how can you support policies that create circumstances for prisoners that you yourself experienced and then use your personal experience as a vehicle to portray yourself to the country as an expert and above everyone by trying to draw sympathy to yourself?

Is it okay to torture other people as long as its not you…because you are “special”?

Is it okay to accept veteran’s benefits yourself, but deny it for others who serve?

Bad character.

McCain is 39 in dog years.

how can you support policies that create circumstances for prisoners that you yourself experienced

Now there is a question I’d like ‘im to answer.

The key thing is that Obama’s lack of military experience is totally unrelated to the fact that he is voting for a more beneficial bill than McCain. |McCain would have to be saying, if he really understood how little military personnel deserve benefits, he would vote against it.

McCain blew his lid and made a nasty, irrational statment that should hurt him with those supporting the military. I think he can be made to do it again on other issues.

Question: On the Motion to Table (Motion to Table Graham Amdt. No. 4763 )
Vote Number: 127 Vote Date: May 14, 2008, 02:50 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Motion to Table Agreed to
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 4763 to H.R. 980 (Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act of 2007)
Statement of Purpose: To improve educational assistance for members of the Armed Forces and veterans in order to enhance recruitment and retention for the Armed Forces.
Vote Counts: YEAs 55
NAYs 42
Not Voting 3

Please explain what this has to do with the subject at hand? I’m not seeing it. I expected this to be a reference to yesterday’s vote, but the date on this vote is May 14 and the subject of the vote issued is: Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act of 2007

Sorry I didn’t include you; I didn’t think you were around for this discussion or I surely would have included you.

i think that was the lindsey graham’s s.amdt.4763 which was voted down (via a motion to table). the webb amendment, i think, was s.amdt.4803 which was passed with clinton and obama both voting “yes” (i’m pretty sure i heard them both make statements on the senate floor prior to their vote).

Me too.

The putative intel benefits of torture/abuse of POWs is unverifiable AT BEST, whereas the downsides could no be more obvious — that is, unless you’re simply gonna kill ‘em all after you’re done fucking them over.

He has revealed a major hot button. Keep pushing it. When he gets angry, he says really stupid things.

The biggest thing that makes him blow up is to challenge his authority on anything. He has a problem with that.

see my 80 – i think that was the alternative R bill that was defeated?

I think that’s true. It makes him really desirable as the “The Decider”.

McCartman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu4EQqOBYwU

David is calling us to action upstairs.

The biggest thing that makes him blow up is to challenge his authority on anything. He has a problem with that.

The last refuge of the intellectually challenged. Bullying.

Does McCain believe in civilian authority over the military, yes or no.

No biggie…. sometimes I am actively posting…. sometimes I lurk…. THIS issue pisses me off…..

I think it is time to redo my letter campaign against Kyl…… back in 2004 when Kyl voted against the Murray Amendment which would fund increases for the older vets…. I created a letter in pdf format, posted it on our DFA website and it pretty much told Kyl that Arizonians are watching and know how little he supports Vets. As a FYI, I heard that over 500 letters were received in Kyl’s Phoenix office and received emails from mothers of military in Iraq thanking me…… time to put my creative juices back to work…

The short answer is it doesn’t. I was looking around for the relevant bill and got it wrong again. This is perhaps the right one?

http://www.senate.gov/legislat…..vote=00137

CIB (Combat Infantry Badge) Army or CAR (Combat Action Ribbon) Jar Heads

Navy it’s the CAR as well. But you knew that cuz jarheads are part of the Navy. Wasn’t real hard to get pinned with one with the Mobile Riverine Force.

Indeed it is, and I was surprised to see that Dick Lugar and Lindsay Graham also voted against the bill. I was also surprised to see that a number of Rethugs crossed over to vote for the bill, thereby creating a veto-proof bill for the Prez. Hope he enjoys the rebuff!

MSM has been spouting how the Cubans won’t vote for Obama because he has a different approach than McManiac. So, today Obama addressed the most hardcore Cuban association that is very Republican oriented.

Obama just got a standing ovation!!!

Take that Pukes!!

California actually, doing a fundraiser in an upscale neighborhood.

Obama wanted to serve in Vietnam, but he was 10 at the time.

Clearly Obama should do his best to piss off John McCain at every opportunity, while remaining calm and civil himself. After all, McCain’s fellow Republicans have publicly worried about giving a man with McCain’s hair-trigger temper control of nuclear weapons.

But the public does not know about McCain’s temper tantrums. So we should put on as many demonstrations as possible.

Apparently one way to drive him to irrational anger is to say that he doesn’t support the troops. I expect that another way is to demonstrate that he is surrounded by corrupt people (from Charlie Black on down).

Ding!

You got it.

Bob in HI

It’s a true shame, but Sain’t McSame’s jailers/torturers in North Vietnam did a real number on his brain. Now that he’s into his 70’s, the damage done then along with the creeping degradation of old age has finally begun to show itself in his incoherent and unintelligent babblings.

Sometime before November 4 Sain’t John will publicly blow a gasket such that even the most masterful of spin masters won’t be able to put the monkey back in the barrel. Sain’t John’s maccaca-moment will but Senator Allen to shame. It will be so bad, you’ll feel guilty for your schadenfreud.

It’s all he’s got, and he’s gonna whip that veteran/POW status like a rented mule until November.

And we all saw how very effective claiming Vietnam combat veteran status worked back in 2004…

However, spending all one’s time in a POW camp being tortured doesn’t mean one has an exclusive franchise on understanding the military.

“War is too important to be left to generals” -

French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau – WWI era leader

All Republican presidential campaign approaches taken on military affairs, foreign policy, national security, and “homeland security” must be shown to be inseparable from George W. Bush. They are.

No kidding. I would think that “support the troops” would mean not flinging them in front of bullets unnecessarily, but apparently, in this new age of never-ending war, “support the troops” means trying to get them killed as quickly and often as possible.

As a Chicano from the Sonoran Desert, I am also a Vietnam War Vet. And what McCain has to say about not serving in the Armed Forces, diminishes what a non-military has to say about our systemic for self-governance, pisses me off to no end and for which McCain would say ‘that’ of anyone, speaks to his-McCain’s irrationality.

So, in advance, let me apologize for the length of this post.

For starters, my boss was shot down over North Vietnam and was imprisoned at the Hanoi Hilton and spent his time there, with McCain and others. When both men were released as POWs, both achieved the automatic rank of full bird colonel. And I mention this tad of info due to its actual and critical importance for understanding of what has since transpired.

In any event, my boss went on to handle one of the Pentagon’s portfolios on MIAs. McCain went on to serve his six remaining years in the Navy as a military lobbyist for the Pentagon. As such, my boss went on to get promoted to his first star, and McCain never received his first star during his six years as a lobbyist.

During those six years, McCain roamed the halls of both the House and the Senate. To wit, he had considerable contact will all 100 Senators, and yet, none recommended McCain for his first star. If so, the recommendation would have been recognized as “good for the service” and his promotion would have been rapidly assured. This did not happen, and it’s been obvious to me for all these many years, that not one of these 100 Senators were enamored of his judgement or his character, and thusly, no promotion to the next rank.

Now, it is not my attempt to ridicule Senator John McCain, but he does remind me of the Alpha Dog in the movie titled, Snow Dogs, in which the overwrought alpha dog has a tooth ache and which provides the angst and hilarity in this movie that Cuba Gooding Jr. must and did contend with. So, if McCain is attempting to demonstrate his “dominance” in this political arena, he really is senile.

Jaango