In case you missed it, there was a critical moment yesterday in our national debate about foreign policy. Sen. Obama exposed the empty rhetoric of the neocons, and simultaneously, caught St. McCain in a nice little trap:
"I mean think about it. Iran, Cuba, Venezuela—these countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union. They don’t pose a serious threat to us the way the Soviet Union posed a threat to us. And yet we were willing to talk to the Soviet Union at the time when they were saying we’re going to wipe you off the planet.” He went on to argue that Iran spends “one-one hundredth of what we spend on the military. If Iran ever tried to pose a serious threat to us, they wouldn’t stand a chance. And we should use that position of strength that we have to be bold enough to go ahead and listen.”
To a non-crazy person, all of this is objectively true, and St. McCain was forced to concede that in fact, Iran was no superpower (though he's still lying about Obama's position). Naturally, McCain's concession didn't stop the chicken littles from squawking "Chamberlain!" all day.
But it turns out that the dovish hippie communist jihad-lover Admiral William J. "Fox" Fallon, until recently Bush's Centom Chief, agrees with Obama on all counts.
"This constant drumbeat of conflict...is not helpful and not useful. I expect that there will be no war, and that is what we ought to be working for. We ought to try to do our utmost to create different conditions."
What America needs, Fallon says, is a "combination of strength and willingness to engage."
Munich! 1938! What course of action do you recommend, Admiral Chamberlain?
"Tehran's feeling pretty cocky right now because they've been able to inflict pain on us in Iraq and Afghanistan." So the trick, in Fallon's mind, is "to try to figure out what it is they really want and then, maybe -- not that we're going to play Santa Claus here or the Good Humor Man -- but the fact is that everyone needs something in this world, and so most countries that are functional and are contributing to the world have found a way to trade off their strengths for other strengths to help them out."
Try to figure out what they want?! Appeaser! How can you say that, Admiral, when Iran, is like, the USSR on Nazi steroids -- the biggest threat to us in the history of threats!?
"Get serious," the admiral says. "These guys are ants. When the time comes, you crush them."
Game. Set. Match.
Look, we have a real choice in this election. We can continue to be led a bunch of hysterical, fear-mongering drama queens who wet the bed every time someone screams "Allahu Akbar," or we can flush these neocons out of our political system, once and for all.
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Good morning ES
Flush (for Zed)!
Is someone trying to say that the bigger and more powerful, the more dangerous? Did any of these or those ever travel to the Soviet Union or experience life there? (mostly rural and semi-literate). Pakistan and Iran seem potentially much more of a threat (through nuclear) than the Soviet Union ever was.
Did you guys read the excellent Errol Morris article in the NYT about Sabrina Harmon?
jus cogens!
Great post. I especially love that last paragraph!
Breaking: Senator Kennedy has a brain tumor.
And hold war crimes trials.
NO!
sources or linky (please)?
A valid point, though the Soviets did put missiles in Cuba. Obama, McCrazy, Fallon, et al, are playing rhetorical games. Looks like Obama with Fallon are winning this word game. Its a good play for Obama. Obama is getting somewhere nearer to the truth than what we’ve been hearing lately from Hillary, McCain and Bushco. That is refreshing.
AP newswire
Fox Fallon speaks truth, which is an antithesis to the NeoCon “all War all the time” crowd. If Bush launches an attack against Iran. If the 1600 Crew were defending itself in an impeachment inquiry they would have no time to plan more wars of aggression in our names, and that would be just fine with me.
Crap. Thanks for the answer, though (and thanks for keeping us informed, ceci)
Now, who was it who said to keep your friends close..but keep your enemies closer still? It’s really hard to keep your enemies close to you if you refuse to talk, act in a totally disrespectful way, and behave like a small child having tantrums all the time. Of course, since we can’t speak the language and distrust anyone who actually DOES, this whole discussion seems a bit moot.
flushing them out is not enough, we flushed them out before and they rise again
we really need to prosecute those that led us to this war
The same holds true for the population of Pakistan, India and Iran. It is not what the little people have or don’t have, it is what the rulers have and want to do. In the past this is what defined third world countries - the division between rich and poor. The US is joining them and our leaders are more dangerous because they do invade other nations at will.
Well this is all good stuff, but wasn’t that guy fired? /s
And isn’t the point of this to paint Obama as a gigantic peace loving pussy?
Munich was not even “Munich”. Chamberlain was following the instructions
of the British and American establishment financiers of the Third Reich.
The dispute over policy came after the deal was made. The plan was for
Germany to defeat the USSR, problem was that a victorious Germany would
be too difficult to control or defeat. There was no appeasement policy
until the post war histories were written with a fairy tale story line.
The Munich analogy has been milked to death, McCain went through his
Vietnam ordeal over it, he has bought it hook, line , and sinker. No
amount of fact will matter to him, it is his identity as a hero.
Let me rephrase:
is there a way to reach the high testosterone laden voter?
Wow. Kirk - what’s the procedure on a malignancy in the left parietal lobe? Dangers?
Of course you are correct. Being correct doesn’t win campaigns. Take a slightly denigrating word “appeaser” and start spewing and spitting out on talk shows with the greatest amount of venom and indignation you can while assigning it to your opponent.
GOP debate 101. Do not be deterred with facts. Keep spitting on your opponent until he is soaking in it.
Hey Doc, ya still here?
malignancy in the left parietal lobe
Is this as bad as it sounds?
Yeesh. Do these guys really think they can lie us into another war?
What does Fallon know anyway? It’s not like he served in the Texas Air National Guard.
ummmm…
Russia still has the capacity (5,200 operational nuclear weapons) to turn North America into a large sheet of radioactive rubble several times over (and the US has the same terrible capacity).
That capacity is roughly a thousand times greater than Pakistan’s and Iran’s combined capacity.
Agree. Rick Perlstein’s Nixonland is a primer in the method that Nixon
perfected, false charge to elicit denial, then an attack to exploit the
defensive stance of the respondent. The hope is that the massive amount
of lying by Bushco has overexposed the technique and the Democrats being
willing to call them out… no guarantee, but it is all we have.
.
recovering winger has wonderful piece on this
Frank Schaeffer
I vote we flush the bastards.
Info on the parietal lobes.
http://www.neuroskills.com/tbi/bparieta.shtml
Yes.
The prognosis for malignant brain tumors is - sadly - quite grim.
Treatment may include surgical intervention (removal of as much of the tumor as may be reached without destroying essential functions), radiation therapy, and chemo.
The left parietal lobe is where our language comprehension lives:
this is a tragedy - as is the steep rise in the (age-adjusted) incidence of brain cancer over the last few decades.
:(
Oops - sorry Toby - missed your ?
The risk is that of compromising language comprehension (and other left parietal functions).
Thnaks for the linky you posted!
Kennedy just chaired a cancer hearing last week, at which Elizabeth Edwards and Lance Armstrong were witnesses. Wow.
Really.
this is one of those really horrible ‘best case/worst case’ situations, isn’t it, Kirk?
a royal flush is in order.
I saw that too Sparkles, but didn’t think of the cosmic til you just mention it.
I was focused on Elizabeth. She seemed OK, but the back of her hair made me think she’d been lying down before the hearing; and she left after her testimony, also worried me. Did you sense anything?
cancer sux.
Benign brain tumors can be relatively (as neurosurgery world goes) inconsequential.
Sadly, malignant brain tumors are almost always catastrophic.
This is really very sad news. I’m old enough to remember him as the new President’s youngest brother. Despite his personal travails, I beleive he has always been a strong voice for good.
The news about Senator Kennedy’s condition is shocking and heartbreaking. My heartfelt respect and wishes go out to him and his family for the hard decisions that they will have to face in the months ahead. In the meantime I know the Senator would wish that we redouble our efforts to increase the support for moving beyond the last two terms of Executive Office tyranny and also to bring to Congress a new, invigorated progressive role.
If Senator Kennedy needs to retire let’s give him this gift…one that his family worked and sacrificed so much for over the generations.
I didn’t notice the back of her hair. I thought she looked reasonably okay - no different than the day she announced the cancer had returned - but I’m not an expert. I mean, people age, right - how do you tell normal aging from the slow process of cancer? Of course at some point the cancer and/or the drugs begins to ravage the outside as well as the inside, but I didn’t notice much different about her. It was sad to hear her say “This disease will kill me.”
Tragic…this then, truly is the end of Camelot.
Strength, hope and peace to Senator Kennedy and his family.
I wonder if Caroline K would consider moving to Mass and running for his seat…..probably not.
And we are also talking about someone here who is 76 years old and whose health has already been compromised.
1,848 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Blue Texan:
“…or we can flush these neocons out of our political system once and for all.”
Thank you for the post but a simple election even one that brings Democratic super-majorities to the House and Senate will not excise the fascist metastasis in our body politic. There are two other things that must be accomplished or elections will remain meaningless in the United States. First, there must be treason, war crimes, war profiteering and freedom and reconciliation trials. Second, unregulated corporate capitalism as we experience it right now must be dismantled root and branch and a new democratic political economy put in its place.
This election is just another battle in our on-going 148 year old civil war.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND NO PARDONS UNTIL THEY ALLOCUTE!!
Thanks. (Deep sadness.)
How ’bout Robert Jr.?
Oh…so sad.
Though, on the other side - you never know what people can come back from. As that character in “Holy Grail” says, “Not dead yet!!” I’ve seen some folks who you would never believe could come through something like this and they do. So, a little heavy duty prayer circle work would probably not be amiss. So, let’s all say some b’ruchas for Sen. Kennedy(hey, he needs all the help he can get; the angels understand Hebrew as well as they do Latin).
The short answer is “terminal”.
There are others in the “dynasty” that might carry on…some involved in politics to some degree.
Caroline Bouvier Kennedy (b. 1957) - a lawyer, the co-founder of the Profiles in Courage Award, the president of the Kennedy Library Foundation, and the chairwoman of the American Ballet Theatre.
Robert Sargent Shriver III (b. 1954) - an attorney and President of RSS Inc., a Beverly Hills music, film and philanthropic company, and Santa Monica city councilman.
Maria Owings Shriver (b. 1955) First Lady of California and wife of Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Mark Kennedy Shriver (b. 1964) - Delegate in the Maryland state legislature for two consecutive terms.
Kathleen Hartington Kennedy Townsend - former Lieutenant Governor of Maryland, unsuccessful candidate for Maryland governor in 2002.
Joseph Patrick Kennedy II - former U.S. representative from Massachusetts.
Robert Francis Kennedy, Jr. - environmentalist and political commentator, attorney and law professor at Pace University School of Law. He is best known for his many successful litigations to prevent water pollution, primarily in the New York area.
Patrick Joseph Kennedy - current U.S. Representative from Rhode Island.
But, ultimately, I would hope that the legacy of Camelot live on in those that were touched by their ideas, rather than through bloodlines.
Does Bobby Kennedy Jr. live in Massachuttes?
That guy is good. Did you see him on Letterman? Bob Kennedy is working on rewiring Israel and other places - electric cars, wind/solar, etc. His enthusiasm is inspiring.
Senator Kennedy is a lifelong Boston Red Sox fan - recall he watched a game Saturday from his hospital bed, this probably lifted his spirits -
Jon Lester - survives cancer, returns to majors, pitches no hitter for Boston last night
Boston Globe
all our prayers with Senator Kennedy and his family
I wondered that too.
I believe he has a history that will not lend itself to elecitve office
Caroline Kennedy (with Ellen Alderman) has also written two books -
In Our Defense: The Bill of Rights In Action (1990) and
The Right to Privacy (1995)
From wiki:
“Political aspirations
In an interview in O, The Oprah Magazine, Kennedy hinted that he would run for the position of United States Senator from New York if Hillary were to win the 2008 Presidential election that, saying “If Hillary left the Senate, I might run for that seat.” This was seen by Democratic observers as “a blunt warning to possible rivals.”[36] The Robert Kennedy Jr. Exploratory Committee is looking to run RFK Jr. for the US Senate seat in the State of Connecticut.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.....nnedy,_Jr.
Of course, that was before today’s news.
Sucks.
I suppose Massachusetts could do worse…..
Hi sorry for the late reply. is anyone else having trouble loading FDL these days?
I’ll have to look for Nixonland. thanks for the recc.
I’m hoping the technique is overexposed as well. Even if it isn’t or we are unaware of what it is, I for one, am tired of the BS style of campaigning. Bush is setting up a play for McCain to run with and that is all they have.
Obama has substance and a policy. What does McCain have? He keeps harping on “experience” without giving details. Vague cliches and stupidheaded attacks.
I am pleased that Obama has been able for the most part to not respond in a defensive tone, but takes an attack as an opportunity to tell America what he is about instead of denying the BS. I mean, I hope he is.
So does Bush.
Political aspirations
In an interview in O, The Oprah Magazine, Kennedy hinted that he would run for the position of United States Senator from New York if Hillary were to win the 2008 Presidential election that, saying “If Hillary left the Senate, I might run for that seat.” This was seen by Democratic observers as “a blunt warning to possible rivals.”[36] The Robert Kennedy Jr. Exploratory Committee is looking to run RFK Jr. for the US Senate seat in the State of Connecticut.
Jack, Bobby and Ted. Camelot is indeed gone for my generation. But there are other Kennedys who can step up and hopefully carry on the good work started by these 3 exceptional men. We need them - now more than ever.
“But, ultimately, I would hope that the legacy of Camelot live on in those that were touched by their ideas, rather than through bloodlines.”
You’re right, of course. I’m living proof-I’m a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer.
No one, other than perhaps the Soviets, were considering undertaking offensive operations against Hitler in 1938. Even the latter were more interested in sharing the spoils (Brest-Livotsk). The Republicans were the most isolationist and pro-Hitler of all the US political factions. Only the “left” were willing to stand up against Hitler, and folks very much ancestral to Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Bush, Cheney and McCain were vilifying them.
President Roosevelt to the Chancellor of Germany (Hitler), [Telegram], SEPTEMBER 27, 1938.
I desire to acknowledge Your Excellency’s reply to my telegram of September 26. I was confident that you would coincide in the opinion I expressed regarding the unforeseeable consequences and the incalculable disaster which would result to the entire world from the outbreak of a European war.
The question before the world today, Mr. Chancellor, is not the question of errors of judgment or of injustices committed in the past. It is the question of the fate of the world today and tomorrow. The world asks of us who at this moment are heads of nations the supreme capacity to achieve the destinies of nations without forcing upon them as a price, the mutilation and death of millions of citizens.
Resort to force in the Great War failed to bring tranquility. Victory and defeat were alike sterile. That lesson the world should have learned. For that reason above all others I addressed on September 26 my appeal to Your Excellency and to the President of Czechoslovakia and to the Prime Ministers of Great Britain and of France.
The two points I sought to emphasize were, first, that all matters of difference between the German Government and the Czechoslovak Government could and should be settled by pacific methods; and, second, that the threatened alternative of the use of force on a scale likely to result in a general war is as unnecessary as it is unjustifiable. It is, therefore, supremely important that negotiations should continue without interruption until a fair and constructive solution is reached…Whatever existing differences may be, and whatever their merits may be-and upon them I do not and need not undertake to pass-my appeal was solely that negotiations be continued until a peaceful settlement is found, and that thereby a resort to force be avoided.
Present negotiations still stand open. They can be continued if you will give the word. Should the need for supplementing them become evident, nothing stands in the way of widening their scope into a conference of all the nations directly interested in the present controversy. Such a meeting to be held immediately-in some neutral spot in Europe-would offer the opportunity for this and correlated questions to be solved in a spirit of justice, of fair dealing, and, in all human probability, with greater permanence.
In my considered judgment, and in the light of the experience of this century, continued negotiations remain the only way by which the immediate problem can be disposed of upon any lasting basis….Allow me to state my unqualified conviction that history, and the souls of every man, woman, and child whose lives will be lost in the threatened war will hold us and all of us accountable should we omit any appeal for its prevention.
The Government of the United States has no political involvements in Europe, and will assume no obligations in the conduct of the present negotiations. Yet in our own right we recognize our responsibilities as a part of a world of neighbors.
The conscience and the impelling desire of the people of my country demand that the voice of their government be raised again and yet again to avert and to avoid war.
FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT”
When is Kennedy up for reelection? 2010 or 2012? Maybe his wife Vicky would fill in until then. (I don’t know anything about her.)
This article shows one on the projects/investigations that RFKjr. is working on:
This article shows one on the projects/investigations that RFKjr. is working on, Votes!
http://www.gregpalast.com/robe.....#more-2005
New Post up
When I was very young my Father used to play the Camelot musical.
It’s best of all possible worlds!
and Hitler publicly mocked him in response - just watched it last night on PBS The Presidents/FDR
Maybe we’ll see Maria and Arnie take the White House with Arnie as “First Husband”- on the dem ticket of course.
I wonder what the King is doing tonight?
What merriment is the King pursuing tonight?
….
he’s scared!
he’s scared!
One of the things that, I believe, really separates the Kennedy’s from the Bush’s(as if anyone would want to make a comparison, really)is that the Kennedy family seemed to make up its mind(probably the Rose influence) that their destiny was public SERVICE. I don’t know if it’s a church thing or what but the difference between the family’s is just mind boggling.
cinnamonape - should have included - Hitler mocked him because he knew FDR’s hands were tied by post-WWI neutrality laws
I am sooo longing for an FDR type leader.
My daughter did a report on him last summer. I found out that his prep school teacher had a profound influence on him that it was their christian duty to take care of the poor and afflicted, etc.
Everyone knows the incredibly privileged background he came from and he used it for the benefit of his countrymen. That generosity and concern for humanity, my friends, is class.
Well, the legend is certainly beautiful but part of that dedication comes from Joe sr. quest for power. He made tons of “new money” in the stock market and wanted his sons to be in charge.
It’s not all black and white. I do admire the Kennedys but I think we all know some truth to temper the legend.
Bush family, genetic sociopathy…
Kennedy family, essentially good people who live service to the countryand their fellow americans…
Very sad news about Kennedy’s new challenge.
Cancer is rampant these days, in the last year, 4 loving persons around me went belly up because of that disease, I need a break.
MSNBC saying now anyone who wants to express their wishes for the Kennedys may go to tedkennedy.com
again on last night’s program - film maker did a good job showing how the WASP/American Aristocracy from whence he came hated him
interviewed his grandson who spoke of the anger and shunning directed his way from the Groton types years after his grandfather had passed on
That is true - I admit it - but it doesn’t explain why you ended up with JFK, RFK, and Sen. Kennedy? Goodness knows that Teddy Kennedy had the potential to be the Kennedy family’s version of Geo. Bush/Billy Carter - we won’t even discuss a) MaryJo Kopechne and b) Wife number 1. BUT, having said that, I have to say that no one can possibly say that Geo. Bush is the equal of Teddy Kennedy, that his ‘accomplishments’ are comparable to Kennedy’s.
For those of you not watching cable news, Reid, Kerry and Dodd speaking.
Chris Dodd, Ted Kennedy’s best friend in the senate spoke briefly, emotions welling, cut it short, and heard the tears coming.
When Chris Dodd cries, we all cry.
Very emotional situation.
Hey Toby.
Ya wanna start an FDL prayer circle/chain?
(write me at tellblondie@ca.rr.com)
I bow to this comment and completely agree. Let me repeat my sincere wishes for a speedy recovery for Teddy as well.
I heart Chris Dodd!
I missed this show and hope to catch it soon.
I knew some people of the aristocracy were upset by the class betrayal but didn’t know these details. If you take a tour of Hearst Castle, Hearst’s distaste for FDR’s policies always comes up…
My parents went to see him sworn in (in the Senate) in 1962.
Dearest, kind mods, you you please delete my e.addy at 84?
Thanks!
I had just heard….and so sorry, so sad. I had hoped the interim not bad news was b/c things were going to be OK. I guess we always hope; I really have alot of respect for the man. Found his voice and footing after some very tough years. I wonder if he will have the energy to be a force in the campaign; I can imagine he would really want to be. There is a way the world was never the same after the tragedy of JFK & Dallas, then the 1968 shocks and loss of hope with RFK. I guess he does not have quite the same resonance, maybe, but revives all that sorrow and loss of the dream. I hope he will see his wish fulfulled for Obama.
I saw him once filling in for Bobby because RFK had started his race.
That’s the problem with Republikans. They don’t have any historical bearing whatsoever. To them, it’s like the abuses of the industrial age, the Depression, FDR, WWII, etc. never existed. Republikans don’t have any grasp on what can happen with unfettered “free markets”. Nor do they have any respect for the history of other nations. /rant off.
I don’t think the potential for nuclear catastrophe is based on redundancy or motive. I just think Iran or Pakistan combined are more pissed off at the US than Russia.
Mt. Kisco, New York