jus cogens!

zed

whatever happened to the age of reason … do we have to rely on iron age mythologies this day and age ? Didn’t the dark ages end?

Wright’s problem, Dacey says, is that he violated secular/political protocol by talking about US empire and white supremacy.

So promotion of Armageddon – killing 7 billion people ASAP for the instant gratification of what, 144 thousand chosen few, is not some sort of predominantly white supremacy? Not some sort of promotion of destructive empire for spiritual gain?

Duggggg :)

I dunno, I remain skeptical of anyone that wants advisors that have as the root of the claim to fame mythology created to control slave populations, i don’t care what flavor it comes in… i much prefer science and reason

Sorry OT, but F**K

WASHINGTON – ‘The Pentagon on Monday announced upcoming deployments of more than 42,000 troops, including 25,000 active duty Army soldiers who would be sent to Iraq beginning in the fall to replace troops scheduled to come home by year’s end.’
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..eployments

this is nuts – the church i go to (when i go) is probably more than half atheists and agnostics.

i think a large number of churches have people that are there for the social structure and such … what do they expect, some oath of office based on “i do believe in some abrahamic version of the god thing?”

What Dacey says is interesting. It’s hands-off religion in the US media, but what Wright said wasn’t religious — it was secular. I hadn’t heard anyone put it quite that way. Secular belief — like belief in equality — is fair game. Belief in, I dunno, Santa’s, off limits.

Selise, could you work some mac magic on those senta vCards?

Enough with religious dogma. Secular Humanism now!

Enough of this gratuitous parsley-bashing! We used to crew together and let me tell you, Parsley is a sage! (who rows merrily in time!)

but i don’ think there is any consensus about what is secular belief and what is not. :(

Austin Dacey is on the editorial staff of Skeptical Inquirer and Free Inquiry Magazines, and is the author of the new book: The Secular Conscience: Why Belief Belongs in Public Life. I spoke with him in the GRITtv studio today.

The title is difficult to understand. Belief should be personal and kept to oneself/friends/family, etc. not public. The author, like atheists John Harris and others are suggesting that religion/religious beliefs should be fair game for critique in the public sphere like anything else. It is currently taboo to criticize religious beliefs, but fine to knock science. Religion (as foolish as it is) is not subject to the same set of criteria for public scrutiny as are other matters relevant to societies. If god said it, no matter how ridiculous, we can’t touch it.

secular thought, maybe? ;)

Enlightenment thinking.

Just yesterday, in the soda pop aisle, I heard two men discussing politics.
“What he believes is that if we started the bombing over there, then it’ll bring the Tribulation and Jesus’ll come just that much sooner. That’s what the man in office right now believes. We would have 7 years of Tribulation.”
The other man said, “Yeah, but we gotta bomb Iran before they bomb us.”
Sheeit.
60 miles from Parsely’s church. Wish I were 2600 miles.

We cannot discover what kind of lifestyles might suit all of us better than the ones we maintain. We are boxed in by religion and by government. Perhaps legal hemp would be a good start.

aahhhh, Enlightenment!

I really don’t care what anyone else believes if they will just leave other people alone. I am astounded at what has happened to and with religion in the last 30 years.

They care about what you believe. They want you to convert and join them in their quest to convert others.

Some of that is hard to parse. For example, all of the anti-gay marriage speak usually comes from the idea that God called it between a man and a woman. Also, on abortion, it’s based on the idea that there’s a soul and it enters the body at conception. These are all fought out in the secular and legal sectors, but the disagreements are based back again, on those iron age mythologies. God made men special. Therefore, a human embroy is sacred but slitting bambi’s throat is great sport and eating. How can you seperate those who do not make decisions based on reason, logic and the scientific method when they inject their beliefs into every law they find against their sacred view of the flying spaghetti monster/celestial teapot/god idea?

Gawd…

Haven’t we just experienced 7 years of tribulation?

will do!

Well, I do not want to be raptured at all. :)
And I don’t want to convert others either ’cause I’m still not sure what I believe but I know it’s not what the fundies believe.

p.s. he defines secular as not participating in organized religion. that’s what i think is nuts – it uses a right wing (i think) understanding of what organized religion is. see, for example, uua – no creed, no dogma and the majority are atheists or agnostics. i’m not trying to suggest that church is for everyone… only that if we’re going to talk about religion, we could at least acknowledge that there are other religious traditions that don’t fit into this definition of secular vs. church.

Review the Constitution and the Ammendments. There is a wealth of secular belief to be found – a consensus, in fact.

gosh, the thought of spending an eternity with any of them in one location is my idea of a hell realm

Global climate change is clearly non-secular.

And nekked on top of it….Ewwwww

I don’t blame you. And those fundys are full of hate for any out-groups.

That is exactly what I thought.
I think the first man was making the point that we have an unstable nut in the White House now, and we really need someone steady. Who won’t bomb as a first choice. But that was a passing impression.

Let alone the Federalist papers, the letters of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington. The pamphelts of Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine. Whoever thinks this country was built on anything but secular beliefs is a poorly educated oaf who speaks lies to lemmings.

thank you :)

i don’t think it was a consensus then (women? blacks?) and i don’t think it is a consensus now (evolution, the role for women, even equality – see the scary black people).

btw, i used to think there was a consensus about some basic things – but i when i look at our country i don’t see it. wish i did.

I don’t think I have ever been in any IN group. I keep my opinions to myself unless I am with like-minded people but I certainly DO have opinions. Fundies wouldn’t like them.

All this “rapture” stuff is mind control of the masses. The people are hypnotized using the power of authority and suggestion while experiencing trance invoking conditions.

I see your point. Let us consider that we have evolved.

all i got was this lousy census.

When talking with Bibilical literalists, I love to ask if they:

Ever talked back to their parents? The penalty is death by stoning.

Ever had a cheeseburger? Combining meat and dairy is a terrible sin…

[Oh - and the Biblical command for wives to wholly comply with their hubby’s sexual wishes doesn’t go down to well, either.]

Funny how the strict literal crowd get all loose about which Biblical rules apply to them…..

go down too well

(sigh. i miss comment edit)

You’re in an in-group here. All are welcome who have half a brain. No one is kicked out and all may express their opinions, but it is an in-group. Sometimes trolls are ridiculed. They are part of an out-group.

and let’s not forget the very broad and oh so black and white strokes painted for these folks – they wish to live in a well defined, predictable world – it’s what really brings ‘em in to the revival tent IMHO

Emerson and his “hobgoblins of little minds” fits in there somewhere

Time for my favorite sermon again! Believing the Unbelievable.

Eric has a new post

Just look at the “10 Commandments”…

They break all of them frequently, but they justify it by “demonizing” someone as Satanic and, therefore, fairgame.

We can kill if it is Muslimislamofacistskillerterrorists.
We can lie if it saves us from….ditto
We can…on and on and on….

Oh, and if we sin, we are instantly forgiven and “saved”.

Hypnotized child minds.

A different perspective, fwiw. You can’t get to this with a direct link so ya hafta follow some directions. On the home page click enter. In the separate window created click Multimedia from the column on the left side. Next window click on Trudell Music at the top. Next window go down to the 3rd tune and click on it. “Hanging From the Cross”

One Native American’s view of Christianity.

I like the one where it is commanded for believers to kill anyone whom attempts to influence them to consider another religion. (Any other religion is a false one, of course.) Its in Deuteronomy.

Don’t forget the one about not wearing clothing of more than one material or how to wear your hair

for the first few years after i left the church of my youth (and was still really angry) i used to invite in all the folks who came to my door to tell me about the bible. and i’d talk to them until they couldn’t stand it any longer.

really not nice.

When people ask…”How can I believe in something I can’t see?” the answer is often…”Well, you can believe in the wind can’t you…you can’t see it, but you see the effects of it..”

That kind of comment catches a lot of people….

In response to the comment-giver who talked about homophobia: that’s exactly the point: Joe Preacher is allowed to say whatever hateful thing he/she believes as long as s/he claims it’s a deeply held religious belief. If I just say all people are equal or better yet, deserve equal protection under Constitutional law– all bets are off, I’m a communist.

I think it’s time we start calling a myth a myth and ignorance ignorance. If not we wind up with mullahs, popes, and evangelicals controlling the worlds’ weapon supplies and history tells us what they do with them … we’re lucky we’ve only had the few wars we’ve got going on at the moment given most of them have end of the world =heaven world views

I’m all for it Dakinikat — TUNE IN TO Grit TV tomorrow when we continue this conversation with Chris Hedges and Susan Jacoby who calls this the Age of American Unreason….

Exactly.

Never defend those that they have cleverly placed in the “demon” file.

I’m glad i’ve had a chance to watch it recently, thank goodness the semester ended for me and all the students have quit pestering me via email

was not emerson a minister?

And from Old Europe, too. What do you ‘furriners know about our Magna Carta, anyway?

Straussian, according to the Power of Nightmares.

Which is downloadable from Internet Archive in 3 parts. This is a great documentary from BBC. Might be the best concise backstory out there.

Yup.

It feels as though we have been living a Tom Clancy novel that never ends.

I feel like we’ve been living thru a Philip K. Dick novel that never ends.

Good one!

Where’d everybody go???

My guess is upstairs. Or maybe the Rapture.

Do you believe in love?
Do you believe in germs?
Do you believe in thought?
Do you believe the moon exists when it leaves your vision (oops, I wandered into object constancy there, but anyway)

Object constancy is a Franco-San Francisco plot!

… thinks there is a way for non-believers to compete.

I don’t know quite how to phrase this but that “non-believer” term rankles me as much as it bothers some people without children to be referred to as “childless”.

I believe in lots of things, none of it associated with any organized religion.

amen!

Double Amen.

Everyone believes in something…unless you are the Dalai Lama who teaches that it’s all an illusion…but…he even believes in a state of illusion…