You'll have to excuse the mess, folks. My head just exploded.
Why? Seems that John Sidney McCain III just lied away the existence of the Iran-Contra scandal:
"Yes, there have been appeasers in the past, and the president is exactly right, and one of them is Neville Chamberlain,'’ Mr. McCain told reporters on his campaign bus after a speech in Columbus, Ohio. “I believe that it’s not an accident that our hostages came home from Iran when President Reagan was president of the United States. He didn’t sit down in a negotiation with the religious extremists in Iran, he made it very clear that those hostages were coming home.'’
For those who weren't around during the period from 1980 to 1988, the Iran-Contra scandal occurred because from the beginning, Ronald Reagan and his people did quite a bit more than "appease" and negotiate with Iran. It's the main reason that Reagan's end-of-office approval ratings were lower than Bill Clinton's among the general public, despite the media's fluffing of Reagan and stuffing of Clinton.
Here's a brief synopsis courtesy of Robert Parry:
The Iran-Contra scandal came out of a couple of different initiatives that the Reagan administration was following. One was the war in Nicaragua, which had to be done with a great deal of deception surrounding it because Congress had opposed much of that effort. The international community had opposed much of that effort, so the Reagan administration essentially took it underground with the work of people like Elliot Abrams and Oliver North and John Poindexter.
On one side there was an effort to maintain support for the contras, who were engaged in fighting the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. On the other side there was a long-running policy, which we have traced back now to 1981, of secretly helping the Iranian government arm itself. The U.S. policy secretly supported both sides -- both the Iranian fundamentalist government of Khomeini, and the more secular government of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Those two policies were running in parallel.
When the financing for the contras became more and more problematic, the Reagan administration decided to use some of the profits from selling arms to the Iranians to help support the contras. So, that became known as the Iran-Contra scandal when it finally broke.
When it broke, it nearly took down Reagan's government. Not only had Reagan and his people been negotiating with and appeasing the Iranians for years, but the aid given to the Contras had been illegal up until fairly recently, as the three Boland Amendments forbidding such aid had been in force from 1982 to 1984. It took some superhuman efforts to firewall Reagan from being removed from office over this -- efforts that Iran-Contra prosecutor Lawrence Walsh described in his book Firewall.
In a way, I guess it's weirdly fitting. The media swallowed it without comment when George W. Bush, the grandson of Nazi-appeasing Prescott Bush, sternly came out against appeasing Nazis. Why shouldn't they blow it off when their other hero, John Sidney McCain III, lies about Ronald Reagan's role in Iran-Contra? They've got more important things to do, such as manufacturing hissy kabuki against Democratic presidential candidates. (Funny: It's OK for Bush to call Candy Crowley "Dulce" on purpose, but when Obama does it by accident it's much worse than either committing Iran-Contra or trying to lie it out of existence. Oh, well.) I'm just being silly -- just because I can remember a time, pre-Rupert-Murdoch and pre-Sun-Myung-Moon, when Republican presidential candidates who said stupid-ass things (such as when Gerald R. Ford "freed" Eastern Europe) would get reamed out by the press for them. Give it up, Phoenix; it's Chinatown.
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ZED. ZED is dead. Hi everybody.
No it’s not! ;-)
But what would McCain know about scandal, anyway?
Late to the threads this evening. The toobz locked us out. Cbl is heavily medicated as a result. More as it develops.
we’re trying to blog together for the first time . . .the boy is sloowww
He can lie but he can’t hide
عليك اللعنه بوش صبي!
per someone’s request downstairs (Deanna ? :D)
It’s about time someone took advantage of a good opportunity to urinate on St. Ronnie the Befuddled’s precious reputation. Way to go, PW!
Like Gore Vidal says…the United States of Amnesia…
I’m sure we are in the midst of Iran/Contra/Sunni/Saudi/Afghan/Kurd/Turk/Israel/Lebananon/Cuba/Venezuela/Columbia Contra Part Deux on steroids….
Do you know why we know they had wmd’s in Iraq… We had the receipts…! ;-)
John McCain’s a parrot.
glad fdl is back, when I went out, fdl was out.
Additionally, of course, St Ronnie had been President for about fifteen minutes when the American hostages were freed in Tehran. So, in crediting Reagan, is McCain admitting the October Surprise really happened?
St McCain has the intellectual firepower of Kevin James (youtube), without the historical accuracy.
And that is probably the only item of “
intelligence” information they had to convince the “coalition” and Congress to invade Iraq. I’ll bet that was all they had.I’ve been hyperventilating for hours. I started getting the “403 error” (whatever that is) at work and it continued for hours at home.
Lost, alone and in the dark…. Cripes. You don’t really realize how much you value something until it’s gone… Kinda like habeas corpus… Glad we’re all able to gather together again.
I liked the fact that we had to literally ‘dig’ up the nuke program from an Iraqi’s backyard… 8-(
Has Ollie North endorsed John McCain yet?
How about Fawn Hall?
John Poindexter?
Michael Ledeen?
Robert McFarlane?
Capsar Weinberger?
Dick Cheney?
John Tower?
William Casey?
OK, some of them are dead. But still . . .
I know! thought I was going to come home to *gasp* the teeVee.
That was one intimidating error page.
Aloha, Marion! I always seem to miss out on your superb breakfasts, one of the hazards of being time-zone handicapped…! ;-)
Heh. The REALLY important question is who does St. Ronnie want to run as Mc$ame’s veep?
Time to make note of which reporters are on the Double-Talk Express and start emailing ‘em and introducing them to the oh-so-quaint concepts of facts, history, and reality?
Right.
I can just see it…they go into their super duper secret Congressional (you can look but don’t touch or breathe on it)…intelligence room…and they showed Congress the “receipts” for all of the WMD stuff they sold Saddam…then they said…Look, we know they have it, because we sold it to them, and this can’t get out…the Prszidenzent has signed an EO with pixie dust that says that you Congress members can never, ever discuss this publicly or else…now step over here and let us cut your hand and mix up the blood for the oath of Maxidon or whatever god they all adhere to…
When I saw that, I wondered was the press corps on the Straight Talk McPress too young to remember what happened or were they so busy still licking the bbq sauce off their fingers to bother challenging him?
The great thing about cyber breakfasts is that they stay fresh all day. (It was blueberry muffins this morning, and they’re still fresh out of the oven for you!)
That is good question, and if we had investigative journalists on the staff of say big name newspaper, these people would be found and asked.
translation, please?
I know Arabic reads right to left, but I forget where the punctuation goes. Is it like Spanish where the ? and ! are at the beginning of the sentence, too?
Oh, sorry. PHOENIX WOMAN!!!!1!!
dmac, this looks like a story you could hit hard on your press-education campaign.
FunnyD
George HW Bush, Reagan’s VP, was notoriously (and unbelievably) “out of the loop” on Iran Contra matters. Since when have any Bush’s been out of the loop on matters of war profiteering/money laundering?
I always thought Ronald Reagan got into office with appeasement of the Iranis … correct me if I’m wrong
not dead and back on the payroll ! good times!
cbl
You’re such a Sweetie…! Oops, was that a faux pas…? ;-)
Whup.
Audio-visual backgrounder.
someone downstairs asked to see F* You Bush Boy ! in arabic - it’s what the google gave us :D
Only Brits and Democrats appease.
GHWB was so far “out of
theour loop” that during his tenure two friends and I in NYC, intelligent and informed folks all, spent about half an hour one afternoon trying to remember his fracking name. We knew it had to do with a plant… not a vine, not a tree, not a flower… someone finally said “is it a shrub?” and we all screeched “BUSH.” In retrospect I wonder if that wasn’t all planned, him having been CIA and all…Carter had the negotiations for the return of the Hostages completed, when Reagan operatives put the deal on hold until after Ronnie’s inauguration. The MSM helped to spread the propaganda that Reagan was instrumental in the release.
Aloha, Teddy! Did you and your significant other set a date yet? 8-)
You’re sure?
None of this “Norwegaian Blue” stuff?
Faux pas? Hardly. I enjoy being called a sweetie — compared to what some of the folks at work would like to call me it’s a delight! (I sometimes have to be a bit of a whip-cracker at work… Sweetie is not how they think of me.)
Fabulous! Where can I get the T-shirt?
The truth is that GHWB was in the thick of the Iran Contra scandal. Not out of that loop in any way.
damn. I guess in the wobbly household, we’re double appeasers.
I was worried, considering Obama’s subsequent treatment…! ;-)
I tried to make it clear that I meant out of OUR (America’s) loop. On the day in question we had with us the NYT, the Daily News, Time and Newsweek. We couldn’t find a single reference to him. We found it extremely odd, and our hackles went up.
and we are suffering from these Iran Contraitors to this day! They should have been tried for treason. Imagine what a better world it would be.
Well, yeah…!
How’s that wee kitten doing?
When I got that 403 error I started fretting more about not being able to find out about kittens, and Raven’s dog, and Quaker Girl, and the friends I’ve made here than politics. Which tells me this is a very happy, healthy place to be.
bill moyers just said bush played golf after swearing it off,………
so, tell me, what do you want my letters to be about?
i just posted this in emptywheel’s thread–i had a fine day of fdl facts being posted as national….on the air, national media…….all cuz i wrote letters…..it happens. sometimes they listen.
chevron backing the burma junta and mccain;s top three campaign people lobbying for dictatorships.
so, what did you do today?
now what?
herding freakin’ cats, i’m goin’ to bed now, but will listen to any suggestions……..
last two threads i also said i would like to know where people first found their voice……mine was the movies blue thunder, missing, the killing fields, uncommon valour, and romero………..sliced my soul into a new direction……and later matewan…….i had already served my time in the union world when i saw it//////
i need a vacation, gonna take a drive……………..wake up.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
99
can we finally come out about issues?
i wanna know obama’s votes on abortion. i already know them, do you? they aren’t so good if you’re pro-choice.
i wanna know his votes on equal marriage under the law. not so good.
i wanna know his views on israel, they have NOT been aired…….i wanna know. oh wait, they have, have you heard what he said about it?
i wanna know his views on energy00he supports coal. HE SUPPORTS COAL. big.
i wanna know his views on import taxes, that submarining manufacturing that is left here, he has dodged all of that.
i wanna know his views on corporate subsidies, he has dodged that , too. said he took no corporate money, but never said he won’t allow those…….hmmmmmmmm.
i wanna know a lot of things that aren’t being addressed.
i don’t care about ’hope’ i care what ’hoping’ can do to me, like hoping for a boyfriend that likes my best friend instead……
wake up. tell me the truth……
Reply
That disgusting period of our history is what spawned the neocons. They should have been ridden out of town on a rail (figuratively speaking, mods…) years ago. Because they weren’t we’re now faced with the political equivalent of an invasive plant. You can pull it up, spray it with RoundUp, dig it out, and still it grows back. It will take a generation to stamp them out entirely.
Speaking of kitty’s, didya see TRex’s Max?
Having our conversations in the comments referred to as “herding freakin’ cats” doesn’t entice me to want to become involved in whatever discussions you are proposing for whatever venue you’ve been quite successful at setting the agenda for in your community.
jmho
It would be cool if you would post “links” to what you found out about or know about:
“i wanna know obama’s votes on abortion. i already know them, do you? they aren’t so good if you’re pro-choice.
i wanna know his votes on equal marriage under the law. not so good.
i wanna know his views on israel, they have NOT been aired…….i wanna know. oh wait, they have, have you heard what he said about it?
i wanna know his views on energy00he supports coal. HE SUPPORTS COAL. big.
i wanna know his views on import taxes, that submarining manufacturing that is left here, he has dodged all of that.
i wanna know his views on corporate subsidies, he has dodged that , too. said he took no corporate money, but never said he won’t allow those…….hmmmmmmmm.”
That would be valuable.
AWWWWWW… The cuteness… it burns! Kitten fixes, I love them!
It’s my admittedly sketchy understanding Obama abstained from a few abortion votes, supposedly to help provide cover for a few fellow Dems from conservative districts.
Do you have any solid links on his record in re choice votes?
This is why I simply will not tolerate a “bygones Presidency.” We need the next Democratic President to appoint a tiger/ess Attorney General who will route out the wrongdoers wherever they may be, since Capitol Hillians seem quite happy not to intervene. The next AG needs an entire division devoted to undoing the lawbreaking of the last eight years.
John Edwards?
Fitz?
Layoff the entire Pentagon… Convert it to a war criminal courthouse and prison.
I haven’t said this yet, but ((((Teddy)))). I sincerely hope that the forces of
darknessThe Dark Ages will not be able to mount a successful challenge to the recent CA Supreme Court ruling. Let us know if there’s anything that we need to get testy about!Your broad point, that it’s insanely ahistorical to claim Ronald Reagan never appeased Mideast extremists, is sound. However, the way you jump straight from the point McCain was trying to make to Iran Contra confuses matters a bit.
In January 1981, within a day or two of Ronald Reagan’s inauguration, the Iranians released the hostages captured more than a year before when students stormed the US embassy. McCain’s contention was that Reagan’s uncompromising hawkishness scared the Iranians into doing so.
This may be true. Alternatively, however, reputable scholars including Gary Sick and Kevin Phillips contend that the hostages were released as a quid pro quo following secret negotiations involving William Casey and others to keep the hostages holed up until after their release could have benefited Jimmy Carter’s reelection bid. The scandal we’re talking about is the so-called “October Surprise,” not Iran Contra. If real, that scandal went beyond appeasement to treason.
We should be clear that we can’t prove McCain was wrong about the specific example he gave. However, his broader implication that Reagan was no appeaser is, as you show, spectacularly bogus.
In Iran Contra, which came later, Reagan’s minions indeed appeased the Iranians through arms sales for the release of (other) hostages (held in Lebanon).
More pointedly, and for our purposes usefully, Reagan also appeased Saddam Hussein at the height of his homicidal viciousness (Saddam’s, that is, although Reagan was pretty homicidally vicious in his own right).
Time, yet again, to haul out the Rumsfeld-Saddam handshake photo. It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
Today I drove down my driveway and suddenly a really young (maybe 10 weeks old) puppy ran out in front of me and tore *ss down the driveway, ducked under the gate and took off…OMG…I stopped my truck and ran out to look for it, but I haven’t seen it since…I think my other dogs brought it back while they were out last night and it was hanging around and got scared of the truck engine..now, I’m all worried about it…
once again, the maniac, the madman, dick cheney and his team b
check out that youtube, you will be amazed at how similart those statements are and that those are the same maggots that lied us into a confrontation yet again
“team b”
you must watch that you tube
then read thom hartmans great article with more documenation of how they made up crap to keep us in confrontation
“team freakin b”
cheney is a sociopath, please watch that youtube
Sorry. Didn’t mean to step on your toes. I understood you. GHWB was very understated as Reagan VP. There is little question however that he and others were the brains behind the Reagan dullard. GHWB used the exact phrase that he was out of the loop during the dog and pony shows that were the Iran Contra hearings. Now if someone had gotten a bl*wjob and he happened to be a democrat…he would be very much in the loop.
Watching the rerun of Countdown. Rachel Maddow sitting in for Keith Olbermann.
I think she’s doing a great job…
What the ub,hunh? Ronald Reagan did what? Those hostages came home the day he got inaugurated in 1980. Unless McCain is finally owning up to the October Surprise that North, Casey, et al. were supposed to have done to keep the hostages there until after the election. Otherwise, McCain’s memory, and apparently many others, are just as bad as Reagan’s. The Iran-Contra scandal was 6 years later.
Yes. The latest W debacle makes such a great segue for “appeasement” stories…
Heh, In fairness, much of the shenanigans occurred behind their back(torture), or, were rudely shown the door when they disagreed with the pogram(Shinseki)…! ;-)
YES!
John Edwards for Attorney General.
I found my voice in music.
All kinds.
Movies: eh, at different ages, different ones. Zeferreli’s Romeo & Juliet, Hamlet, later comedies. Bill Murray’s Where The Buffalo Roams, re: Hunter Thompson. Later even, historical dramas.
But, still and always music.
In high school, some radical guy turned me on to lefty politics. We sat down during the Pledge, we staged protests. There was a voice I found in myself.
I found a voice as a mother. Making the decisions as to what was right. For them, for me. Love.
That’s my reply, on a Friday night, after a crazy, frustrating week.
You!
Oh, yeah! Here’s a nugget from the NYT article about his endorsement:
(Emphasis and crossed fingers are mine.)
no Mr. Nice Guy for AG
Double your trouble
Double your fun
with….Wobblybits Raw Food Smoothies!
Nope, somehow doesn’t scan…
OT but holy cow. At C&L: Conyers is talking about having Rove arrested if he doesn’t testify.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....ss/”>
I was thinking of the cost/savings and utilizing a building which might be large enough to handle the task..)
…although Sheldon Whitehouse would also be good. But we need him in the Senate.
she’s fab.
Also neuro, did you see the cartoon we liked last night from TDS posted on C&L?
LOVE it.
You certainly didn’t step on me, I just wasn’t sure I had been clear.
I doubt if the civil defense attorneys whom he defeated as a successful plaintiffs’ trial lawyer consider John “Mr. Nice Guy.”
sorry guys, John Edwards for HHS, .Elizabeth Edwards for AG
Eureka -
I understand we have a facility in Cuba :D
G.H.W. Bush couldn’t have been out of the loop about Iran/Contra, because was ex head of the friggen CIA.
WayneC
Did anyone point to McStuid today that there was a difference between the return of the hostages and Iran-Contra? Too scared to piss off the saintly one is the mainstream press. Probably alot of those reporter were in diapers at the time and don’t know about research. Twits!!
yep. He needs to stay where he is. Considering the age of many of the folks on the Judiciary committee, it probably won’t be long before he rises high in seniority.
If you’ve spent years in courtrooms going up against corporate lackeys you’re not “Mr. Nice Guy” in that environment at all. I think he’d be a wonderful AG.
Please correct if my memory, which as I age becomes increasingly collander-like, is wrong, but wasn’t the Carter inauguration broadcast as a split screen, together with the landing of the plane with the hostages captured from the US Embassy in Iran? And if that’s true, then wouldn’t anything Ronnie may have done to help secure their release therefore by definition -not- have been undertaken while President?
Good evening, RevDeb.
I had not seen that the cartoon was posted on C & L. I will have to watch it again.
By the way, I trust that comments about Countdown do not count as “spoilers” since it is not a comedy show?
Forgive me, but I think her first priority is her health. As it should be.
lol!
Countdown titles its McCain story “McBush Diplomacy.”
Blogosphere rhetoric goes mainstream. LOL!
not spoilers on Countdown because it is broadcast nationally all at once. TDS and TCR don’t show up on the west coast feed until 3 hours after we see it on the east coast.
Yes. It was. And it sucked. Except it was the St. Ronnie inauguration as Carter left office.
That’s what I remember, also.
Do you mean Reagan inauguration..
Sorry was away for a moment.
Kitty is doing fine. She eats (a lot), pees and craps (a lot) and sleeps (a lot). Still very active so all signs point to good things. TGIF. Mr has night shift with her tonight and I get a foster mommy evening to myself.
Ronnie Reagan was inaugurated with the split screen in 1980. They hostages were taken over a year beforehand during Carter’s admin. Even though it was Carters folks who did the negotiations, Ronnie’s crooks managed to steer the timing and took the credit.
Thank you!
A commentator on local Eyewitless News, Judge LaDoris Cordell, mentioned last night that since the Supremes said marriage is a civil right guaranteed by our Constitution, the fall initiative (even though it is a constitutional amendment) may be unconstitutional on its face. The Supremes used the words “initiative” and “referendum” in overturning the current law (which was made by referendum in 2000) and the Judge thinks they used those terms purposefully: to inform the Secretary of State that there is no point in certifying the referendum for this November’s ballot.
It will simply be rejected as a constitutional amendment by the Supremes even if passed by referendum, since it restricts a civil right — which amendments cannot do.
I hope to see more legal types take up this line of thinking, with the goal of influencing our terrific SecState, Debra Bowen. Perhaps she can, by rejecting the referendum out-of-hand due to this week’s language from the Supremes, save our state a lot of stupid hatemongering from out-of-state agitators this fall.
We’ll see.
In the meantime, no — we haven’t yet set a date. We’re waiting to see how the 30-day period is implemented and whether there will be an emergency stay until the fall referendum. Having come close to our date more than four years ago, only to see it yanked away, we’re proceeding more cautiously now.
Thanks for asking!
Your memory would serve you correct… Give it a couple of days, tho…! ;-)
Yes Reagan inauguration
link
if you can, set out some food for it. It may not have gone far and is only hiding.
Thank for verifying! — and also for providing the requested correction. Doh!
Like I said: My brain is a collander these days. Getting old is great.
WOW. That would be so great! We’ll keep the good vibes pointing your way.
Wouldn’t contacts with the Iranian “terrorists” by Reagan operatives who were not yet U.S. government officials be considered something like “treason”?
You can tell MSNBC so here!
viewerservices@msnbc.com, countdown@msnbc.com, letters@msnbc.com,
I’m right there with ya, bud.;)
Whoa, a serious shot across the bow…
Most excellent point!
Glad to hear kitten is going from strength to strength. Grab sleep whi