…I have been waiting to say that this whole primary season. We finally get our moment in the sun and, despite Bloomberg saying we "matter so little," the Mountain State is going to milk every last minute of it. Because, dammit, we are the only primary going today (except for those pesky Republicans in Nebraska who want some of the action). Boo yah!
According to just about every talking head out there, Sen. Clinton is likely to win in WV today. The question is by how much — and who gets what portion of WV’s 18 delegates.
Here’s my morning public service announcement: if you are an independent and want to vote in the Dem primary, request a Democratic party ballot. Polls close in WV at 7:30 pm ET — so get out there and vote. Now. It’s foggy here this morning, but the forecast is for lots of sunshine and 70 degree weather, which sounds just perfect.
We have been inundated with campaign calls for the last couple of weeks, with the Clinton calls outpacing the Obama ones three to one.
Mr. ReddHedd and I took The Peanut with us to vote this morning. She enjoyed the flags, and hanging out with the folks working the polls. It’s been a steady stream of voters today, according to the poll workers — there were a couple of folks voting as we went in, and a couple of folks getting ready to vote as we were leaving. And a lot of folks took advantage of early voting as well, I’m told. They’ll have some numbers by this evening.
Having attended a Clinton event recently, where Bill Clinton held forth in a front porch rally, you can see and feel that there is still a lot of nostalgia for the Clinton years among folks here.
And whatever your feeling on his policies, Bill Clinton can work a crowd better than any politician I have ever seen. He had all those folks in the palm of his hand by the end of the speech. Hillary, Bill and Chelsea Clinton have blanketed the state the last week or so — but it has felt in a lot of ways like a farewell tour, with a lot of nostalgia and old-time Democratic values woven into the speeches and appearances I’ve seen and talked with others about the last few days.
The move back to a party unity message is a welcome one, even among the Clinton supporters with whom I’ve spoken. And the "ladies of a certain age" in the local Democratic women’s group here just love her (and loved this Mother’s Day ad) — they truly reinforce the "women for Hillary" stereotype that the media keeps pushing. This is the best ad she’s run (YouTube) for the primary — it certainly has resonated with folks I’ve spoken with about it. But that doesn’t mean that Hillary has everyone in town.
One of the folks my neighborhood, for instance, has this lovely Obama sign in the yard. (You can see by the photo that it’s still a wee bit foggy here this morning.)
Barack Obama spoke in Charleston, WV, yesterday for a lovely speech to supporters. You can watch the bulk of the speech in the above YouTube, where I thought his tribute to families of service members was especially poignant and well done. A huge portion of WV’s population has served in our nation’s military, and winning those folks over is key to winning the state — talking about the costs of current wars is an excellent frame for addressing the problems that McCain brings to the electoral table. (Here’s a prior speech (YouTube), also given in Charleston to a veteran’s group that was excellent as well.)
Obama had previously done an event in Beckley, which was also very well received. (YouTube) And it looks like our state Dept. of Highways crunched the same numbers that the Obama folks did on the gas tax costs — and also found a tax holiday to be too costly for all of us over the long run. And I loved this human interest story about an Obama volunteer in Charleston who has been feeding the other folks at the campaign office. Welcome to good ole WV hospitality!
I’ve been reading reports from all over the state — from the Huntington area, from a Wheeling paper, from the AP via the Charleston Gazette, and elsewhere that voter registration is up, that participation of independents — which is allowed in the Democratic primary this year — is expected to be up, and that early voting was up as well state-wide. And that Democratic participation thus far has been kicking Republican ass. Boo yah, yet again.
And even better news (YouTube)? The Obama campaign has launched a 50 state "Vote for Change" voter registration drive for November. So we can hopefully keep adding to those already impressive voter participation numbers as we head into the fall.
Yup, just sitting here soaking in the Greatest Primary Event EVAH in WV. Waiting on the edge of my seat for what MSNBC is touting as "all day coverage" and our very own CNN primary theme song (recycled from prior primary theme songs) — and I’m just sure that Chris Matthews will be calling for my thoughts any minute. (HA!) Seriously, though, I’ll be keeping an eye on the local news all day — and will update as I get tidbits throughout the day.
The Peanut would like me to inform everyone that we’ll be having a picnic in our living room with assorted stuffed animals and doggies, and lots and lots of popcorn…
Related posts:
- AL Gov: Rep. Artur Davis Attacked for Health Care Vote by Primary Opponent
- 63% of Pennsylvanians Want Specter to Face Democratic Primary Challenger
- Honeymoon’s Over: Bubba Headlining Maloney Fundraiser
- Halfway There: Donate for Organizers in Arkansas to Primary Blanche Lincoln
- Obama Defends the Stimulus But Ignores Important Critics





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Thanks for the local flavah, Christy!
You are welcome. Will be keeping an eye on things throughout the day here…and hopefully snapping a few more pix along the way for everyone.
Peanuts and popcorn!! YAY!!
Well, I know Obama got at least one vote in Kanawha County this morning.
I hope that the Clintons will campaign as hard in WV for Obama when he gets the nomination in the fall. If the DNC put forth the effort, we could actually be competitive here in the general.
OT – amy goodman is now on wbai for special two hour funding/raising of democracy now! this is the second hour, and is an interview with gore vidal from a fews weeks ago.
gore vidal: lots of crooks on the supreme court
Agreed. I have to say, with Edwards still on our ballot this morning, I had to really pause for a moment and think about how I wanted to cast my vote — because what I really wanted was to fill in his bubble. SIGH
You’re gonna be surprised when Chris Matthews really does call you.
gore vidal: 911 was a coup d’etat
So, uhhh…who’d you vote for today, Christy?
Glad to know I’m not the only one who feels this way.
Will be fascinated to watch the Mountain State coverage Christy though. Will think of you and the Peanut. How do you explain Chris Matthews to a wee one…or Mr. Potato Head?
I simply could not watch the NC stuff — was warn out by the primary came.
I voted for Obama.
Guess I was “warned” (not worn) out! *g* see #11
I did vote for Chris Dodd when I saw his name still on the ballot here in TX.
My version of a “F*ck evrybody” vote.
HAHAHAHAHA Why yes, I would be. *G* Trust me when I say that I am not expecting it.
What about that Charlie Rose fellow?
the ball’s in your court christy ;o}
Good morning, Christy – it was downright COLD this morning when I rode my bike to work this morning, but the sun is up and warming things nicely(which means I will have to carry all of the jacket and the long pants home when I ride home this afternoon). Tell The Peanut that she can come have a picnic in my livingroom(or the backyard – we’ve got six acres)any time she wants to.
First time posting – I live in Marion County -WV – Heavy, Heavy Clinton supporters. My husband and I will be voting for Obama.
Welcome to firedoglake, sueellen!
Maybe Chris could use a little help.
Can you say “Spotlight“?
sueellen – howdy! please don’t make it your last!
And to let you know why the Obama vote, I like his foreign policy team better. One of my old professors, Tony Lake, is his chief foreign policy adviser, and I respect his though process and his integrity. (He was one of the two NSA officers who resigned in protest when Nixon began bombing Cambodia.) I had a course with him on the Vietnam War and its impact on American foreign policy and I learned more in that single class than just about any other I have ever taken. He’s amazing.
If Obama can attract Tony — who does not work in politics lightly any longer — then there is a lot there. At least, in my mind…
Mathews was actually speechless this morning when Mika busted on him for “filibustering”. I honestly think his feelings were hurt.
Hi sueellen! nice to meet you.
I ran into some of the Marion County party folks at the Clinton rally pictured above in the post and chatted with them a bit. The Manchins and the party machinery in Fairmont signed up early and strongly with the Clinton folks — they go way back to the first run for Bill, and that’s where a lot of that heavy support comes from, I think.
She really locked up party leadership statewide very early on — even though a lot of folks also leaned toward Edwards in the early stages as well. He had a lot of union support, but it was softer than it should have been given his credentials — and unfortunately, I think that was true for a lot of places around the country.
Welcome to the Lake, btw — thanks for posting!
he was – almost speechless which for him is amazing lol
How was turnout in Kanawha County this morning? I hear that early voting there has been brisk…
Sounds like a very positive introduction to exercising one’s civic duty for the Peanut.
What kind of voting technology are you using in West Virginia? When I voted in the primary/caucus, we just used small scraps of paper where you’d check off your candidate. The votes were hand counted 3 times and we got the results from our precinct within an hour and a half. As I recall, we had roughly 300 people voting in our precinct.
- Tom
Well that is no less than expected *g*
Are you voting again today or is WV one of those “vote once” states.
after all this talk about hard-working caucasians – it’ll be interesting to see if hrc gets all those votes….. she was shameless and constantly claiming only she can attract those voters – just awful imo
About the only half decent interviewer on public television is Bill Moyers. Curiously Moyers was recently on Rose’s show but it like the NewsHour, Washington Week, etc. is in general a venue for the most establishment of the Establishment, the most serious of the Serious People, the most conventional of the Conventional Wisdom, the most vapid of the vapid.
They have optical scan ballots in my county, which is a fairly typical sampling of a lot of the stuff statewide. They tried out the computer voting in the 2006 primaries, but no one wanted to use them because the receipts sucked and everyone wanted a paper print-out or else. *g*
Blessedly, we are a “vote once” state.
I went very early to my polling place in the Upper Kan. Valley. Not many folks at that time.
welcome sueellen – mountaineers are always welcome at the Lake !
Sorry, I didn’t “Reply” on that last.
Really, the state Supreme Court race is the most important race in WV today.
Based on a whole lot of discussions that I’ve had with folks here, she may be right with a lot of them. But a lot of that hinges on people believing all those scam e-mails about Obama. Some of it may be a racial issue certainly, but a lot more of it is unease based on “I heard…” bullshit that people get in e-mails or hear from someone else who has gotten them. It’s been really pervasive here, and needs some pushback in a huge way between now and November if it’s going to be overcome. Sad, but true…
West Virginia counts right?
-G
Yes and, as Tucker Carlson said yesterday on Hardball, we also have cable teevee and the internet. Oooooooh…
That’s exactly right. Those chain e-mails have done more damage to Obama in southern WV than anything else.
I am pretty short and abrupt with people who vomit those liE-mails as facts.
I ask them if they also base their opinions on bathroom wall writings.
-G
btw, did everyone see the fabu roundtable with Jane, Katrina vanden Heuvel, Phil Donahue and Laura Flanders? If you haven’t, you should watch it — it’s a fantastic discussion!
i find this very distressing …… but i hope this vote will show that appealing to racist feelings isnt the way to win the WH enlightened minds hopefully will prevail but i somehow doubt it sadly
I have cousins in West By God! Virginia (that’s how they say it) in the Huntington area. They report a lot of new faces and a lot more signs than they normally see. Most all of the signs for Clinton. I’d have to say it looks like Obama will do worse than the polls suggest.
Boxturtle (But Go Obama nevertheless)
watched it twice it was soooo nice lol
Clinton is, was, and forever will be a DINO. I thought it was hilarious when she portrayed her trademark triangulation on a gas tax holiday in terms of Goldilocks and the 3 Bears. The other thing I have often said about Clinton is that she has a strong tendency to persist in her mistakes. Her decision to stay in the race regardless of the consequences to the country and the party is just so completely typical of her and why she would be a truly awful Chief Executive.
Morning, Christy!
Cheers to all you West Virginians from this old Texan.
Did we get the final results from Texas yet or are they still a’countin?
(cue sound of whiney voice) – I was all set and then it got rescheduled…so I missed it. And, of course(lowering my voice so that no one can hear me), I can’t watch it here at work, so I’ll have to watch it when I get home last night. I was so disappointed that I could not see it last night; I’m sure it was just terrific to see adults have an intelligent discussion without arm waving, expletives, etc.
it was a marvel to behold *s*
You’ll love it when you get to watch it. We had some file compression issues , I think — they wanted to be sure folks could watch it with good quality but be able to see it well even with a lower-quality bandwidth. I think they did a great job!
By the way, Obama is gonna have to get a new message. The GOP Congress is all about change now.
Boo-Hoo Boehner said so.
-G
Yay, Christy! I say that because I think it just wouldn’t do for our presumptive candidate to get completely skunked in WV, which is the way it sounds like it could happen if any of the pundits even come close.
LOL!
When I was in the AF, there were a couple of others Kentuckians with me and we’d play on the dumb hillbilly bit just to mock folks who seemed amazed that we actually had some modern conveniences. Stuff like:
There’s stoopid, then there’s Tuckery.
Wonder if they’ll eventually come up with a slogan that isn’t from a drug company marketing scheme… *g* (I thought Mr. ReddHedd and I were going to die laughing that they picked a “Cialis” slogan…mwahahahahahahaha)
If you haven’t heard the O’Reilly remix, it is a howl. Not work safe.
Rappin O’Rielly.
-G
This is a bit off-point, but you might want to check out this week’s Legal Times, the D.C. trade mag for the lawyer-set, which takes a snapshot look at how Justice might look under Presidents McCain, Clinton and Obama.
President McCain/ Attorney General Ted Olson (or AG George Terwilliger)
President Clinton/ Attorney General Jamie Gorelick (or AG Elena Kagan of Harvard Law)
President Obama/ Attorney General Eric Holder (or AG John Edwards)
Nuff said.
Can you picture Boehner and Jean Schmidt sitting in bathtubs on a grassy hill during sunset?
-G
Ewwwwww…I can now. And I hate you for it.
It’s not allowing me to post the link, but take a look at letters 2 and 4 of the Obama/Clinton letters to the editor in today’s NY Times.
(Since Clinton’s record is almost identical to Obama’s, does that therefore make Obama a DINO too?).
Clinton gets the electorate.
If you’re German or British and go to MIT, Homeland Security thinks you’re “a security threat.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05…..13tsa.html
And how soon after the polls close will Hillary be calling herself the Comeback Kid?
Prairie Today: If It’s Tuesday…
Got a link?
Is Boehner straight?
I did. My shrink will be billing YOU for the extra hour he’ll need to deal with it.
Boxturtle (*SHUDDER*)
Jeez did you have to be such a buzzkill. Now I gotta get up and find the brain bleach.
Good grief. The horror, the horror.
I can see Jean adding a new marketing flavor to the message: “Cowards, pull out; Marines never do!”
Come on! ALL Republicans are straight. Just ask Ken Melman.
Hahaha…from talking points memo:
“Obama Hits McCain for Failing to Support Webb’s GI Bill
McCain has expressed confusion about the GI Bill, asking why today’s vets can’t just marry heiresses like normal people.”
LMAO!!!!
Or ask Jeff Gannon.
Yay!
Red State Mamas Votin’ for Obama…
I was influenced by who supported Obama, too, in my case, homestate Sen. Conrad… one of his former staffers, Jim Margolis, is one of the Obama campaign honchos. Obama reached out to build a strong network early on, and that community organizer/activist excellence is showing.
Evaluate a person by the company they keep…like this good company here at FDL. Welcome, Sueellen!
Actually, I meant to reply to the Boehner/Mean Jean comment. Not to my own posting! But there’s enough horror to be found in the idea of Ted Olson as AG. W apparently backed off naming him AG the last time when it became apparent that his role in the California Congressman Jerry Lewis investigation would be brought forth front and center during confirmation hearings. Why this wouldn’t worry St. John is beyond me. But then maybe McCain’s just pandering to the Wall Street Journal editorial board again. They love Olson–and Terwilliger too.
Christy,
What do you think when you hear Clinton say:
I dunno, if I were a West Virginian that had voted for Gore in 2000, I’d be just a little pissed at having that blame laid at my feet.
I grew up in West Virginia, in Randolph County — went back there for a reunion recently, and now it seems like everything in West Virginia is named after Bobby Byrd. Amazing.
Good morning Christy.
Who did the Peanut vote for?
I agree that those vids with Jane, Donahue et all are gems. Intelligent folks, sharing facts, and listening to each other… Who knew this would make interesting tv??? And the quality is outstanding. Thanks to Laura & crew.
Republicans trying to fix their image by pushing the theme that they will give americans “the change they deserve” sounds like suspiciously like a threat to me!
especially from someone who was noticably AWOL from Gore’s campaign. Is history about to repeat itself now…sit back and let the Repub get elected so she can run later? That didn’t work out so well for the rest of us last time.
I think she’s blaming the ones who voted for Bush.
bom dia pups
thanks for the local report Christy
Lil one ate at 6 but is yowling already so be back in a bit.
I’m wondering if all the programming will come out of New York City or if some of FDL’s ‘all stars’ will be doing programming or ?
Ha! That’s great!
They ripped off the slogan of Effexor, an antidepressant.
Why do the Republicans want to drug all of America?
Didn’t they do enough damage allowing Thimerisol in kids’ vaccinations?
Hillary is in Class I, so she’s up for re-election in 2013.
Which is why she is running behind Obama. You have a rare flair for grasping at straws that aren’t there.
yeah – prob early senile dementia setting in – look out america if he’s the next pres!!
Is the Pope Jewish?
Nope, her term expires in Jan., 2013. So, either she runs in 2012 for her senate seat …or …not.
Wasn’t the CW at the time that they didn’t want to taint Gore with their scandals?
People, it is going to be a long day for me today because I’m doing all the primary coverage for WV. So if we could keep the personal sniping and poo flinging to a minimum, it would be much appreciated…
Prairie Sunshine@85:
Maybe it’s a twofer, suck up to drug companies & their base at the same time.
Hey Redd. Congrats! Good turnout you think?
I’ll bet Peanut looked like a little ray of sunshine to all the folks at the polls. Prolly already counting down the years till she can vote too.
Now we sit and wait like perfect ladies and gentlemen – NOT.
Of course she’s blaming the Bush voters, but she generalized the statement by including the whole of West Virginia. I think that she could have gotten the same message across a bit more tactfully, but that doesn’t seem to be her strong suit.
Can we fling poo at McCain?
That’s really fun.
with Barr running, why bother?! just sit back & watch. Whooooeeeee! Can smell it from here!
details, schmetails…. *g*
The Cheney legacy will live on. It’s not like the man invented the politics of fear but he certainly grasp it to his bosom and nurtured it until it was his own particular brand. That works with 28% of the folks, still. And then there’s another faction for whom the abortion issue is always a deal breaker when deciding to go Democratic. And, of course, the famous 1% of the public who have actually benefited from this administration will continue to drink from the trough; but, outside of the kool-aid drinkers and psychologically damaged, the Republican message just HAS to be a hard sell. I really would like to think the Obama election will be a blow out. Sure, there’s backwater, hill-billy states like WV, but the rest of the country seems to have their collective heads on straight.
Ooooh — Hillary Clinton just robocalled me to remind me to vote. She sounds like she has a cold…
Did you call me?
Not on the WV topic, but I got a political poll call yesterday at noon. Transcript follows:
Caller: Good afternoon, sir. I’m calling with a brief poll on the upcoming New Mexico primary election. [Note: the D’s held a presidential ‘caucus’ in February. This primary is for the down-ticket nominations.] Will you participate?
BC: Sure. Go ahead.
Caller: In the upcoming election which issues are more important in your choice: Social issues, like abortion and gay marriage, or fiscal issues?
BC: Well, I think abortion is a matter of personal decision. If you don’t think you should have one, then don’t. And as far as gay marriage is concerned, I think gays ought to get to enjoy divorce just like the rest of us.
Caller: So, you think fiscal issues like a balanced budget and lower taxes are more
BC: [Interrupting] No, I think some taxes should be raised, like the estate tax.
Caller: [somewhat confused] Okay, then. In the Republican Senatorial primary between Steve Pearce and Heather Wilson, do you intend
BC: [Interrupting again] I don’t have a vote in that primary. I’m a registered Democrat.
Caller: Oh. [pause] Thank you. [Hangs up.]
BC — who enjoyed that waaaaayy too much.
Hey Christy
Much like you found ‘lucky’ we found a two day old kitten yesterday. Going to feed her and set her in the box outside and see if momma comes for her. If not, we will probably foster her until she is weened from her lil bottle and give to a loving home.
Hillary first ran for the Senate in 2000, so she wasn’t just sitting on the sidelines for that one.
“backwater, hillbilly states like WV”? Thems fightin’ words…
Morning all,
For Christy and all Mountaineers. Can’t think of WV without this song.
And *waving from the rooftop to juslin*
In ‘04 walking to the polling place with our then 4 yr old we saw her little neighbor girlfriend.
Lil Mack said “We’re going to vote for John Kerry”
Lil friend (with a puzzled look) replied “The man who wants to kill the babies?”
Values are taught early.
Update: Still waiting to see what those neighbors replace their Ron Paul sign with in the Fall.
Hmmm….So much for accurate targeting.
coldchills?Will Barr be on the ballot in all states?
aw Rave, yer just wayyy cute fer yer britches. Haw ;->
To be fair, it could have also been a reminder to Mr. ReddHedd…
probably suggested to McCain by the PhramCo lobbyist wing of his campaign
Now, now, dear. Somebody picked up the poo flingin’ gauntlet already so we mustn’t dirty our fingers ;-)
Sorry, I’m at an Apple Education Conference, I’ll go away.
(waving back) hey bluejeans – hope to see you next month ;o)
Hey! Don’t you dare. Countin’ on yer edifie-in’ enlightening input ere amung us heathens. Hope you have a good day. At least try to drop in on occasion.
has anyone here read the dailykos diary by meng bomin (from sunday): The Democratic race over time. thought i didn’t like thinking about the primary, but found this diary fascinating…. imo, the maps are an amazing analytical tool in the hands of meng bomin.
Exactly. Positioning herself then to be a viable candidate for the next step up in 2008. Now, if that doesn’t work out… I’m just sayin’ *g*.
One thing Christy and McCain might agree on today, we all gotta lighten up and relax our shields a bit and not assume every comment’s a time to go to red alert. [with apologies to Christy for the pairing *g*]
Paging Mr Spock….
Really looking forward to seeing this primary through the context of Christy today, and BobZim and others who are adding. This liveblogging/flavah makes use of the best of what blogs do.
all of the above?
you think she’s actually counting? i’d be on autopilot by now. she must be made of _________. [i got nuttin’. not a clue]
I thought it was Gore who distanced himself from the Clintons?
Oh hell. Barbara Comstock is on my teevee…gack. Think they’ll ask her about her work for Romney and her comments about why he was far superior to McCain? Not bloody likely…
c’mon.
Can’t wait to see you again, and hope to meet some new pups too.
GRIT-TV so rawks. If you haven’t seen it yet make some time for it.
With any luck, they’ll be raptured by then.
The primary is not the General.
Dean also fell behind Kerry, but I think he would have beat Bush. Front runner in the primary doesn’t mean victor in the General.
Suggest you keep eyes peeled, if you can stand it. It’s been interesting to see the none-too-subtle changing of the guard among “guests” visiting the punditocrackpottery lately. not pleasant. just interesting.
Fascinating. I love this sort of stuff.
And Dems have a flare for grasping losses that aren’t there, which is what Clinton understood.
Nah
They’re Catholic.
No rapture there, just penance.
Can you believe that MSM actually brought up that although Obama is wearing a flag pin….he’s unpatriotic, because he’s wearing it on the wrong lapel…
Sigh.
my my. you’re on your best behaviour. bravo! i spec. Christy appreciates.
Don’t worry. Our own little minds can fill in the blanks by now. Truly do appreciate your admirable restraint. ;->
watched it twice!!
wow – love that!
let’s not forget Poblano
seriously?! egad! dumbkopfs!
JohnSwifty@99:
It’s very frustrating to listen to R friends & family who are smart, caring, good people that still believe the propaganda: Saddam & AQ were connected, there was wmd & so much more. What was clear to me after some rather hot conversations is that they really are ignorant of the most basic facts, no matter what issue. You could see by the blank looks on their faces that it was as if they had heard it for the 1st time. That wouldn’t surprise me if all they watch is Fox. Then they pooh, pooh, saying it’s just opinion.
They seem to get really incensed over, kept returning to young, single women having babies that they “have to pay for”. Not much else as far as I could tell.
Now that is scary.
way cool. thanks for the heads up Selise.
Frankly, I was disappointed that he wore one.
From November 1 through March 1 the Obama campaign was superb. Since March
1 this campaign has been scuffling along. West Virginia is a good example of how this campaign over the past two months has failed to live up to its full potential
Over the past week they pretty much ignored West Virginia. This was a mistake. Since the Wisconsin primary Obama has had trouble connecting with white working class voters. West Virginia offered Obama a good opportunity to have a conversation with this block of voters. That he chose not to take advantage of this opportunity, apparently based on small bore political concerns, was not good for him, West Virginians, our Party or our chances in November.
I believe he wore it in his left lapel, closer to the heart than the other.
just be glad he’s strong enough that it makes no difference either way.
don’t-cha-think?
He’s worn them before for veterans events — it isn’t anything new, the media is just making a hoo haw out of it because they can. SIGH
I would contend that the rest of the peanut-sized brain, lapel pin wearing lemmings are wearing it on the wrong side and Obama has the right of it. In ordinary physiological terms, isn’t the heart on the left side of the chest cavity. Don’t we put our hand over our heart when we say the pledge, lemming folk? Shouldn’t we then, place our badge of conformity there as well?
But, here’s the rub. Obama is left handed. Perhaps his sinister nature is the result of a failed twin who died in the womb and he is the remaining, left handed result, whereby his physiology is reversed from the average human.
Can it be!!!!!??? Is this the bombshell for which Hillary remained in the race!!!!!???? Thank god for the prescience of that woman!!
I think that means he leans Left.
Wink WInk Nod Nod
Are the wingers among ‘em gonna get all confusated? If it’s on his left, they’ll see it on their right, eh? Win-win.
Thanks for that clarification. I still like his offer to debate true patriotism. I don’t think anyone has taken him up on that one.
So what is your recommendation at this point, in order to give Democrats the best chance of winning the Presidency?
so was i…. saw tweety on morning joe and of course he thought it was his surrogate’s doing …… hmmmmm
Well over here in Lexington, KY we’re waiting for our moment in the spotlight next Tuesday. I hope I don’t get calls. I just hate that kind of campaigning.
HOPE that the disillusionment with Republicans and the Bush years is enough.
it’s the deciding issue for me in this campaign. /s
oh my goodness. you’ve put your head thru the buttonhole again. no wonder your collar feels so tight.
Please NOT to fling poo at peanuts or lemmings, 2 perfectly extraordinary life forms on this planet.
amen.
poblano is the best at prediction (who could have foreseen an anonymous blogger would best the corporate competition? *g*). meteor blades had a good post comparing every major polling outfit’s predictions for indiana and n. carolina – poblano beat them all. and who doesn’t love the way s/he (?) answers questions about methodology.
But not surprising.
OT–CNN.com reporting seven explosions in Jaipur, India with at least 10 deaths. No story link yet.
One could say the same with Hillary and black voters, no? Or is there some sort of parallel universe where it is only important because well the people are melanin challenged
Oh, for crying in a bucket.
You state a hypothetical and then draw a conclusion from that based on nothing more than your own opinion and then use it as the basis of an even more expansive conclusion.
Yes, the Clintons have been so good for the Democratic Party, haven’t they as their losses in the 90s under Bill Clinton’s stewardship attest?
I’ll try not to call you but I can’t promise *g*
I like that expression. may I borrow it?
Caller ID and an answering machine are terrific inventions. ;->
Well, if truth be told, there’s a ton of facts. I used to think I was relatively well informed. Siun admonished me during the pre ‘06 elections, to read Robert Fisk’s The Great War for Civilization, to get some real perspective. There is absolutely NO way the current MSM could ever educate the public as to all the nuance that man brings out (and I’m barely a third of the way through it — it is difficult and requires a reader to take notes, which I’m getting too lazy to do!).
But your other point is important, too. When the MSM actively participates in spreading dis-information, that is far worse than not doing their collective jobs in the first place.
Have at it, wobbly.
i think meng bomin’s diary (linked above) shows that this is not the case – that the issue is primarily geographic (appalachia) not race or class. do you have another interpretation for that data?
The key to success in the Bush administration. Isn’t this exactly how John Yoo justified torture? Referencing his own work to support an outrageous proposal?
[Note, please, I am not referring to the prior commenter, only to the concept so well phrased here by Hugh of using one’s own prior opinions to justify further logical leaps of fancy]
The logical fallacy for that form of reasoning is termed petitio principii, or begging the question. Don’t denigrate the form. It has made an entire career for such luminaries as Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity.
Of course, I’m sure we’ll all do that. If the national campaign is as effective as the primary campaign has been, perhaps our hopes will be fulfilled.
well, first of all, I didn’t draw any conclusion. I said “I think” Dean would have defeated Bush, but of course I have no way of proving that. But you missed the broader point I was making, which is that being the “winner” doesn’t ensure victory in the General. They are two different animals entirely, is my point.
Yes, the Clintons have been good for Democrats, but the Democrats have not been good to the Clintons. Honestly, I think if Gore hadn’t distanced himself from Bill, he’d have won in 2000. And I think if the overall electorate were smarter, Bush would not have been president once, let alone twice, so again, to say that the way the electorate votes is proof of right or wrong I think is fallacious.
A useful site for counting Confirmed Super Delegate Endorsements
In the last week Obama has 24 SD endorsements from “undeclared” SD’s. Clinton has had four. But Clinton has also had 3 “defections”. So it actually works out to Obama picking up a net of 27 SD’s while Clinton has a net gain of one.
Now I AM confused. How is that relevant to what egregious said at 165[?] other than allowing you to trot out your petitio principii.
Oh DO elaborate. Please DOO.
*loosens own collar*
Thanks much for the link!
We got to talk Italian!
Laura has a new thread upstairs.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/05…..e/#respond
Ordinarily I’d say the way the electorate votes is proof only of preference; but, in the age of Diebold, the assumption that the superior preference of an electorate will result in a direct decision is probably the most fallacious statement of all.
I’m feeling like the “left behind”. Why don’t new posts get announced by the site anymore?
And I just had someone canvass at the front door for the Obama campaign. It’s a gorgeous day for it — much better than the last few pouring down the rain days.
-uh- verbal or, heh heh….?
That would be begging the question.
By the way, I’m not wearing a collar. Cheers.
We all have gotten kind of lax about ferrying messages about new threads, & the site doesn’t seem to post the [new post] announcements any more. One clue if we lapse in our duties, is to stay tuned for “hiccups” in postings. that often means another post has appeared. Click on “home” &/or your “F5″ key to bring up the new post.
And there it is in three little words.
I prefer to wear my patriotism, not on my sleeve, but in a far more personal place. Thank god for underoos!
There’s that, but there’s also the influence of the media/corporations, and, let’s face it, a not-too-bright public.
If Americans were on the ball and really understood what’s going on, BushCo would not be getting away with all their outrageous crimes.
That is just one example.
And tattoo parlors!
No, it is not the same thing at all.
Kiss my flag, all you neocon repugs!
silk cravat?
Hey girlfriend.
I’ve found myself refreshing more than usual, lately.
Not, complaining. I’m used to self advocating. Ha.
It’s a beautiful day in LA.
I’m working on turning my whole, very small, back yard into a victory garden.
Just picked up a few more plants at the 99 cents store, if ya can believe.
They didn’t have names on them, but I think they are eggplants. Call it a surprise. :)
I’m not wearing a collar today either.
johnSwifty and Hugh both are bringin’ their A game today, eh, eg!
johnSwifty: When the MSM actively participates in spreading dis-information, that is far worse than not doing their collective jobs in the first place.
Hugh: You state a hypothetical and then draw a conclusion from that based on nothing more than your own opinion and then use it as the basis of an even more expansive conclusion.
My Electoral College analysis suggests Obama needs to win two of these three states – OH, PA and MI. A key swing component in each of these states is white working class voters. This voting block is available to Obama as he proved in Wisconsin. He needs to re-engage with them. This week in West Virginia he did just the opposite. It was a mistake.
True, and the lure of
is a much more attractive viewing opportunity than the proposal of trying to educate one’s self through the MSM, even if is was performing an adequate public service. And maybe this feeds into the “none too bright” angle but I have frequent arguments with people who are perfectly informed of the way their rights have been violated by this administration to which they have two pat answers:
“I don’t care if they tap my lines, I don’t have anything to hide.”
“Bush has to do what he has to do to keep America safe.”
Those people aren’t dim, they’re simply brainwashed. For them I fear there is no cure. But who’s to say my opinion is correct, anyway. I only think so by virtue of the fact that my own ideas seem to agree with those as laid out in The Constitution. I guess I’m more conservative than the opposition, in that regard.
Strangely, most well thinking people here at FDL seem to be that same brand of conservative. Who’d a thunk?
Okay, I won’t argue with that. However, I’m confident that his campaign will understand and adapt as necessary. Hopefully, if the party actually is able to unify, he will also get some help from the Clinton campaign and supporters. If it doesn’t unify and work against McCain, neither candidate would have been successful.
HI Demi! ;->
shocked! just shocked!
sh-h-h… me too, heh.
i’ve heard a bit of humour is the best way to let excess air out of a stuffed shirt.
i’ve been playing in the mud too much lately.
congrats on the presumed eggplants.
i’ve gotten lazier & lazier – found the absolute best way to grow bok choy in our garden is to let it self-seed, then hunt for it as it sprouts the next season.
I notice sweet Sunshine refers to their “A” game [188]. I’ve given up grade grubbing in my “retirement”. Grades are vastly overrated as true measures of learning. tra la..
Hill is going to win…. She says so, she has “The Golden Egg“
West Virginia is not and was not a must-win for Obama. Campaigning heavily in WV and losing heavily (as is likely) would weaken the campaign more than an uncontested loss.
There is also the possibility that this is part of a negotiated exit strategy for HRC.
BC
There ya go! ;->
So if Dean being able to win the general election in your opinion was irrelevant to your point why did you include it? As for the primary contest and the general election, if your candidate can’t win the primary contest then he/she will not get a chance to run in the general. What part of this do you have difficulty understanding? This seems to me yet another in an endless and increasingly tenuous series of Clinton rationales. She’s behind in the popular vote. She’s behind in superdelegates. So now she is the best candidate for the general election. How? What? When? Where? Why?
Again you just state things not simply with no evidence, but with all the evidence that there is against your position. You ignore the Republican gains in the Congress from 1994 onward. The Democratic Party was greatly weakened by Clinton. If the opposite was true, Democrats would have had gains in the Congress but this did not happen. If there had not been such Clinton fatigue in 2000, Gore would not have needed to position himself away from Clinton. As it was he ran a poor campaign capped by the Republican theft of the election.
Your partisanship and your lack of substantial fact based arguments for your candidate undercut your defense and support for Clinton. All I ever hear from you are blanket statements with nothing to back them up that Clinton is the best candidate because you think she is. Well you are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. Of those, real facts, your arguments contain virtually none.
omg demi, this is going to be a l-o-n-g day, sigh….
say. anyone out there still use hat pins??
just askin’. why?
Okay, well I tried.
I do think a lot of you Obama supporters need to work on that inspiration/change/unity thing, though. You’re pretty hostile.
Tra La! Indeed.
No grading.
Mostly. Yeah. Whatever. Depending on my mood, of course.
It’s straw hat and cotton gloves time for me.
Hugs.
Perhaps a nice nap and a spot of tea will ease the pain for you dear. Oh and bit of epsom salts in a pan of water for a good soak might help too! You put your feet in, you know, not the other end.
Yes, TX, OH and RI.
The Obama campaign also lobbied to disenfranchise Fl. and MI voters. Not sure how that might play out in the General.
(btw, it’s “bloc”).
Except that, as noted, to say “I think” is not drawing a conclusion, and Hugh missed the point of my post anyway.
I suspect their A game has more to do with attacking Clinton supporters than their arguments.
Can we not say “I think Obama will win in November” either because that is creating a hypothetical and drawing a conclusion?
Hmmmm…Shoot! Because I’ve been saying all along that I think Obama will win the nomination.
My and my silly conclusions!
how do you explain the hostility of those of us who aren’t obama supporters?
although, you are close to being successful in turning me into one… nothing has pushed me more towards supporting obama than clinton partisans. it’s a stupid reason to support a candidate and i find myself constantly having to fight against it.
for the record, the buttonhole joke [152] is a tribute to my dear departed Republican parents, who used it long ago to mock Truman, whom they hated before they changed their minds and respected him. My parents would no doubt find it extremely difficult to recognize what their party has become.
Glitch in the matrix.
My response at 200 is for Adie…at 192.
John, have you ever heard the phrase, sometimes it’s better to be kind than right?
oops! do i get another try?
Here are some excellent maps that show where the voters are aligned with Hillary and Obama across the country. One important point is that Barack’s ability to draw voters is broad nationwide, except for in Appalachia, leading to the conclusion that Barack is the stronger candidate in the general.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..338/514258
could you give me a link to an analysis of the class/race exit polling for those states? i’d like to take a look.
i gotta run now, but will return to this thread later today to see if you’ve left me any reading material. thanks!
WVA, I believe has the least amount of college graduates among its population of the 48 continental states.
I hope everyone in Beards Fork votes and votes for Obama.
Now that comment does not seem fair to me.
In my “rule book” the problem was caused by friction and cross purposes exercised by state versus national Democratic Party officials.
I can find no reason to blame Obama for that mess. But then, I can’t tell a button hole from a bra, according to … some stiffupperlippers in the world writ LARGE.
Damn Damn Damn it is frustrating. When will you folks who make videos figure out that not everyone has young ears that can distinguish between background and foreground audio.
Are you waiting for a mob of us old folks to hold your ipods underwater so you can hear what it’s like?
What will it take for you who claim to dwell in reality to wake up ! Do you want our votes or not?
The Clintons have only been good for the Clintons and no one one else. It’s such a tired story. I remember from a prior post you coould not explain why it was necessary for the Clintons to trot out the race card with Rendell in Penn and Ferarro in New York. You simply accused Obama of playing the race card which is the Clinton line and an attempt to isolate the working class vote with less than a high school education which the Clintons proudly claim is the core of their base.
In my experience, Hugh seldom if ever misses points. I have not witnessed such an occurrence. His is a sterling intellect around the Lake here.
mebbe i should try velcro…
Calling you on the arguments you use or your lack of evidence for them is not hostile. Apparently if you can not win on the merits, you wish to claim a foul. That I am being hostile. The point is give me an argument that actually has substance to it, that does not reduce down to you support Clinton because you support Clinton. As for being an Obama supporter yes I am but like many here only nominally. Neither Obama nor Clinton are particularly progressive but Obama has substantially less baggage than Clinton. He has made efforts at outreach to the netroots. It is why his fundraising has been so spectacularly successful. Clinton had the chance to do something similar but she basically blew us off and went with Establishment endorsements and the financal backing of its powerbrokers and rich contributors. No one forced her to do this. She lost the primary race back in February and she did so precisely because of the kind of campaign she chose to run. Events since then simply reinforce this. Clinton lost and she lost on her own terms. Her continued presence in the race does not and cannot change that core fact. It can and does help the Republicans because she continues to attack the presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama. She continues to play the race card. So if as you assert the Clintons have done so much for the Democratic Party how does the aid and comfort they are currently giving to the Republican Party fit in with your view?
Suggest anyone tempted to look down upon all things Appalachian,
READ the “Foxfire” series of books. And don’t come down off that stool until you’ve finished.
File your degrees* appropriately and THINK.
Wisdom IS __________.
If you cannot answer that question in the broad sense, suggest holding off on the huffing and puffing & popping of buttons.
-
*yeah. advanced. magna undergrad. published. Ivy MS. published. What’s it to ya?
I think Bill Clinton was a pretty good president, and he’s the only two-term Dem president since FDR, yet a good number of Democrats, who at one time presumably supported and defended him from the relentless Republican attacks, are suddenly smearing him a la Repubs.
I think there is a double standard going on w/r/t the race card stuff. When it is widely reported that Obama is getting 90% of the AA vote, it’s stated as fact. When a Clinton or a Clinton surrogate says it, it’s race baiting.
Yes, I think it’s the Obama camp that has played the race card by making bogus accusations of playing the race card. That is what I believe.
If Obama had been subjected to a tenth of the sexist slurs Clinton has been, only in racist vernacular, those spewing those slurs would have been blown back in a nanosecond. But the vile and sexist stuff tossed at Clinton has gone on not only with impunity but with outright denial.
To say that “fairytale” having to do with the Iraq war was racist is absurd. To say that Clinton’s comment about hard working white Americans was her saying African Americans are lazy is absurd.
And ironically, it’s this reading race into EVERYTHING Clinton does and says is what has divided the Democratic party.
Obama is given credit for “having the courage” to discuss race while at the same time being said to have run a campaign that transcends race. He has escaped the Wright thing, so far, unscathed by, miraculously distancing himself from the Rev. even as his supporters say Wright is correct.
There are a lot of dichotomies there.
The Democrats traditionally got the working class vote. Apparently those people are to be scoffed at now, as is shown by your seeming belief that it is pathetic that the Clintons are “proudly” getting that vote.
1) It’s about winning ,and to win you have to get the votes, those with less education included, and they are in fact as much citizens of this country as anyone else;
2) As far as I’m concerned, this country was built on the backs of those people and it’s the hedge fund managers that are screwing up this country, and while I think the religious snake oil salesmen and the GOP have done a number on many of those people and exploited their trust and earthy natures, to show such snobbery and disdain for them is gross. Is this how Obama plans to unify the country? By looking down his nose at less educated people?
I know a lot of real geniuses who have less than a high school or college education, and I know a lot of pretty dumb people who have Ph.D.s.
And everything in between.
Um, the fact that Clinton was able to draw in that long-lost and much needed white, male, blue collar voter IS a substantive argument.
It’s Obamans who made it about race rather than a bloc of voters we need to win in November.
And I’ve already noted that you did not understand the gist of my argument, and I will take responsibility for not succeeding in making it clear.
But your posts are hostile, nonetheless.
Hey, all u musicians out there: ever look upon a post and thread as a fugue?
relax Christy. i be good now. promise.
Well, he missed mine.
OMG…
I thought this would stop when, you know, things were decided.
We got us a nice topic here, and worthy folks to yack about it. The primaries are nearing the end, and we can all look forward to the next leg. Heck, this is Christy’s state for crying out loud. Do not get drawn in.
Do.Not.Feed.
Then what you’re saying is that the people who are now taking this position were lying when they were defending the Clintons.
Okay.
*crickets*
I think this presentation by Larry Lessig on the difference between Clinton and Obama is thoughtful.
could you give me a link to an analysis of the class/race exit polling for those states? i’d like to take a look.
Selise, here you are.
I explain it by saying that it’s the Obama campaign meme of changing all that, not anyone else’s, which is why some have noted that Clinton is more honest in her dishonesty than is Obama.
You can’t run on ending hostility by being hostile.
Well, you just go for it. The Clintons can start another/support another war without reading the NIE. I am reminded of what the Clintons stated prior to the start of the primary season, if I didn’t like her vote on Iraq, go find another candidate. I had already done just that.
The Clintons are grifters offering retail political favors and goodies, night in the whitehouse, gas tax holiday, nuking Iran, smashing OPEC. The Clintons have no policy priorities. US dependence on foreign fossil fuels rose 18% then they were in office. Sadly the Clintons are just about personal ambition and attract the Tenets, Bergers, Carvilles etc who are also just about personal ambition. There should be personal ambition but with a run through of enlightenment, not just the same boring president of the class stuff we have seen for the past 20 years with the Bushes and the Clintons.
I hadn’t thought of that, but good threads do approach a fugal structure.
Well, Christy you’re just not on the “NOT OBAMA CNN Election Bandwagon” and/or watching CNN enough…
-Because it’s a 5-0 blowout for Hillary – according to the joint mathmatical skills of CNN and Hillary herself.
-Because their Election Express, piloted by Bill Schneider and Larry King, easily found 5 white shiny faces all supporting Hillary, but only managed to find one face supporting Obama, and uh-oh -it’s a black one.
And we know those don’t count anymore to the media or Team Clinton.
Until she tries to get re-elected to the Senate..
thanks. i needed that. ;->
i loves my baroque.
nice moniker you’ve got.
P. E. A. C. E.
Um… The 240 page analysis of the Clinton legal problems from their
Arkansas years was researched and written by Sam Dash of Watergate
fame. The document has been mentioned in the Washington Times, McCain’s
moonie backer paper, those analysis will come in any fall campaign by
Clinton. There is real evidence of considerable wrong and criminality
now past the statute of limitations… real baggage, not rumors. Um…
coda?
right on cue, by gum!
P. E. A. C. E.
Dona nobis pacem, Amen.
[sh-h-h-h-h Time for your little lie-down Swifty.]
Then I guess you think Obama is going to attack Pakistan.
I don’t.
I knew what he was saying. I know what she was saying about Iran.
AGain, one standard for Obama, another for Clinton.
There was no gist or argument to understand. Apparently the only thing that would be construed as non-hostile by you is if we all agreed that Clinton will and should be the nominee. But she isn’t going to be the nominee. So I guess you could say that reality is hostile to you as well.
I watched the first 4 minutes and could shred every point he makes.
Be careful of falling for hearing arguments that appear to support your position but are specious in nature. It’s how we got into Iraq too.
thanks. nice while it lasted. fun, eh? *g*
Please feel free to enlighten us.
Actually, the fugue is continuing…
Give me a microphone like the guy has and I will.
Btw, I vehemently disagreed with Clinton over that war authorization vote.
Hysterical! Clinton voted for the AUMF that got us into Iraq. She supported the war for more than 3 years but we are warned by a Clinton supporter to beware falling for arguments that are “specious” in nature. I could not make this stuff up.
OK I should divine that the Clintons are not going to nuke Iran. I do know she did not read the NIE before voting for Iraq. I do know she lied about sniper fire in Tuzla. I do know that Bill was disbarred for lying. I do know that Rendell, her campaign chairman in PA gratuitously announced that certain white folks in his state were not going to vote for Obama, more information than we definitely needed to know. And then that clown Ferraro trying to turn Obama into an affirmative action drag along.
The Clintons totally screwed up the political scene during their first 8 years with the 94 Congress, healthcare and Bill’s reckless self indugences.
Enough already.
You want perfection? Choose Bach. I’m a mere mortal.*g*
Juno, I, for one, do enjoy your observations. Although unlike you, I narrowly favor Obama over Clinton, I share many of your concerns.
Well said Hugh, but there are many more substantive facts behind some of us not supporting her -and have good cause to never vote for her. I offer one such gaping hole in Hillary’s heart, in hopes her blinded supporters will look deeper:
My daughter and I love to travel for business and pleasure -and are just average people who’ve developed a great respect for other peoples of this world.
Senator Feinstein offered legislation to place a moratorium on the practice of cluster bombing innocent civilian populations.
More vile than napalm, these cluster bombs explode into thousands more of little toylike bomblets that stay in the soils for decades, killing and maiming innocent kids and families. We’re still trying to rid VietNam of all those land mines.
Hillary crossed the aisle -along with Lieberman and a few other Dems -to join with all of the Republicans to defeat her own party’s.
The vast majority of nations and humanitarian organizations were behind the Democrats, and so was Obama.
Hillary chose to support her special interest donors, rather than the very principles on which this country was founded.
She is worse than horrible..
Oh, for sure, but I’ve been saying for a long time now that Obama will be the nominee. I may think Dems are making a mistake, but I deal in reality.
But I would argue that there is far less tolerance here for Clinton supporters than the other way around. I certainly believe that Obama’s supporters have shown far more hostility toward Clinton than her supporters have toward Obama. I don’t see anyone telling people to “not feed” Obama supporters (as thought they’re animals in a zoo) or referring to cynical comments toward Clinton (or her supporters) as “poo flinging” but the accusations of “poo flinging” only show up when someone who challenges the conventional wisdom of Obama appears.
I would not accuse someone who says, “I think Obama will win the general” of drawing conclusions in some arrogant manner, as you have me. I think they’re simply expressing an opinion, as is their right, and I would assume they are doing so based on a process of thinking that has allowed themselves to come to that conclusion for themselves.
I’d have thought it would be the Obama side of things that would assume the best in people, not the worst or most cynical.
And Obama began supporting it as soon as he got into the Senate.
My opinion is that the Iraq war is BushCo’s. Period.
cymbals, for all love…
well. we did our best. cleanup in all aisles.
geebers. broken glass all over the floor… dam
Frankly, I sick of supporters of either candidate.
did not!
did too!
nuh uh!?!
rinse & repeat.
I’d recognize Salieri anywhere.
over & out…
… unless…
PDQ Bach! Ah HAH!
My opinion is that W had alot of help that was both aggressive and/or was also by default.
My only problem with Obama is the unrealistic idealism and myths surrounding his campaign, and I think reality has a way of biting people on the bottom. I think a little bit of understanding the reality of situations, even if we don’t necessarily agree or like it, is important, and I think Clinton gets that.
Technically, I agree with Obama more philosophically on matters and culturally, but he’s got weaknesses that, in my opinion, make me very nervous. I also don’t like the campaign he’s run, but his supporters don’t like the one she’s run, so it’s a wash. Politics is nasty.
That’s fair.
Black Forest Bluegrass
So, just out of curiousity, if you evenutally have to recognize that Obama won the primary, are you going to continue to express your disatisfaction and expose what you see has his shortcommings, or are you going to try to support his campaign?
Gawd Juno, you really love the sound of your keyboard…
Who i an example of an Obama supporter?
The greatest source of help for him was the huge majority of Americans that supported him. That put Congress in a jam. My biggest worry, and I really had anxiety about it at the time, was the overt attempt to quash real debate on the merits of going to war in Iraq and the coercion, bullying, and intimidation of Congress to give that fool that authority.
But we do live in a representative democracy, so I hold the public partially responsible. You and I knew it was BS.
Look at the WRight situation. AS soon as the heat got too much, and it didn’t take much, Obama did the politically expedient thing, and he should have. I don’t begrudge him that. But that is why I think he would have also voted in favor of that authorization had he been in the Senate at the time and subjected to the threats and coercion. It’s a specious argument to ascribe the same standards to him as Clinton when discussing that issue.
I think there were a lot of factors involved, none of them good, and I don’t agree with that vote but I understand it, just as I understand why Obama had to vote to continue funding the war even if I don’t want that war to be funded any further. Things are complicated.
tw–rofl……here, have a popsicle……i’m outta popcorn.
Your Obama-inspired unity and civility notwithstanding, I am too verbose and am the first to admit it.
I admire people of few words. I am not one of them, I’m afraid.
lol! I think i’ll need an all-day-sucker for this one :)
Juno @ 199:
me @ 205:
Juno @ 227:
i feel hostile because of the obama campaign meme? that’s what you’re saying? that it’s obama’s fault that i get pissed off at some (not all) clinton supporters?
wow.
So Juno, if you think Obama is going to be the nominee, what is your position on Clinton’s staying in the race? What good does it do for the Democratic Party? What good is done by her attacks on Obama, her use of code language like “hard working white voters”? Wouldn’t her efforts be better spent at this point campaigning with and for Obama?
oops that was tw at 253
I’m in the process of working all that out.
thank you for the link. i’m off the phone now and will take a look… if you are still around and willing to discuss it.
i do believe you’ve gotten your wish ;-> *ducks*
“Ma. I didn’t do it! Honest!”
Are you by any chance a first child? (I love the birth order stuff)
No, that’s not what I was saying.
I’m saying that, while I don’t think it helps anyone or anything for people of any persuasion to be hostile to others simply because they disagree, I think there is a heavier burden on Obama supporters to refrain from hostility and incivility since the very reason for his campaign and their support for him is supposedly change and ending all that.
Not sure if that explains it very well.
lol
No, second of four. Daughter of an Episcopal minister (put that in just because of your name).
you could remind me that i’m supposed to be reading up on how to use parallels to install linux today. :-)
I still don’t know who these obama suppoerts are you keep talking about. On this site wobblybits is the most wonkish for Obama.
I don’t think it was code language. I think she was saying she’s gotten a bloc of voters Dems have needed for a long time and lost to Republicans, which is true.
That bloc of voters has been discussed for years now by Democrats (a book was written about them: “What’s the Matter With Kansas?”). I don’t recall anyone saying such a discussion was racist or an inference that black people are lazy.
I think the “code” is calling it racist.
(If someone notes that Clinton has gotten the female vote, does that mean they hate men?)
Obamans turn EVERYTHING into race, and THAT is the distraction and what is dividing the party.
Clinton has every right to stay in the race until it is called, and voters in upcoming primary states have every right to have their say.
but i enjoy reading your thoughts :)
How’s tomorrow shaping up. This might take awhile.
Heavier burden? Clintons hostility justifies more hostility from her
supporters? Keep talking that up, you can have your own opinion but
not your own facts. Six weeks of circular logic indicates considerable
difficulty “working that out”… please.
btw, if Democrats think continuing with primaries before a nominee has won the needed delegates and that doing so damages the party, then maybe they need to change the primary system and not have it go until June.
Personally, I think there should be one primary, maybe in June, no convention, then the General in November. The way campaigns are run now is obscene.
Seems honest to call it racist.
Im off to work again so this is not by way of debate. My memory of the race discussion was begun in S. Carolina when Pres. Clinton made some pretty explicit remarks. Obviously Obama was drawn in even more after the first Wright loops began to appear 24/7. I do not think he initiated the theme. Of course, alot of the enthusiasm has had a racial component because of the history of disenfranchisement. Indeed, only because he appears Black, since he is, is not raising racism, imo.
damn. you and tw3k are dangerous. lol.
tw3k – i know this is not a good thread for it, but i’d still like to know more about you’re thinking re frameshop / liberals / progressives etc. hope i can get a rain check on that.
Paging Prof. Peter Schickele STAT. Code blue.
Yes, Bill Clinton bringing up the race card and Geraldine Ferraro saying that Obama was only where he was because he is African-American could never possibly be construed to be about race. At this point and with your own admission that Obama has won the primary race, I would think that the only real distraction is Clinton staying in the race.
how about over a cuppa green tea :)
think i’m gonna go put on some marvin.
after i go get another popsicle.
orange.
Right, but do NOT note that Clinton won NH because of the female vote, which is true, or just in general that she is getting the female vote, ‘cuz that’d be gender baiting rather than fact.
Obama is getting 90% of the black vote. Kudos to him. Find. No problem, but it’s a fact, and it’s also a fact that without it, he would NOT be where he is.
That is not race baiting or racism, it is a FACT. Bush wouldn’t have won without the evangelical vote. FACT.
Why is it the ONLY bloc of voters we cannot talk about is the African American bloc?
That only goes to prove that in fact race is LESS of an issue than is sexism because ANY mention of race is deemed race baiting or racism and is scorned immediately.
It’s ridiculous. Even talking about the blue collar white male vote is now somehow racist.
Good grief.
don’t punish me with brutality
just talk to me and you will see
what’s goin’ on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fETIjVvv1Ds
(hope it’s the right one)
What category of person are you?
President Clinton noted that Jesse Jackson won in SC due to the black vote. That is a fact. I think the more likely scenario is that Clinton was perhaps frustrated and sad that, despite his having gone a long way himself with race relations in this country, African Americans didn’t vote for his wife.
Naive, perhaps, but I did not read anything racist into what he said. I don’t think it’s sexism to state that women voted for Clinton, or any other female candidate either.
I think it’s stating a fact.
I’ve seen it noted OFTEN in the press that Obama is getting 90% of the black vote here and there, that due to the AA vote, he would win GA, etc. I didn’t see that as race baiting. It was FACT. No outcry over that. No, only when his political opponent points it out is it race baiting. How convenient.
Obama gets the young vote, as is noted often. that must mean he hates old people! Gasp!
It’s ridiculous.
It’s also Rovian. The Clintons have been very friendly to the African American community, and to turn that asset into a liability is exactly what Karl Rove does, and it’s unfortunate.
I don’t know what you mean.
And who cares anyway?
Juno @ 199:
me @ 205:
Juno @ 227:
me @ 267:
Juno @
it doesn’t.
i’ll explain my feelings of hostility: i don’t care if you support clinton – that doesn’t piss me off. i do care about the bs things you write about obama supporters – because then you are making false slurs against my fellow commenters. and that pisses me off.
When I was doing research on Mother Jones at the University in Morgantown, one librarian, a very beautiful light-skinned black woman, used to join me for lunch. She told me a few eye-opening stories about what it was like to be black way up in the hills. And yet, here she was, a lovely and witty and overly kind gal of significant accomplishment. She didn’t let the bastards defeat her.
Christy, you remind me of her, and of Mother Jones. The latter may have been crustier and more sharp-tongued, but there’s just something in the spirit that WV magnifies.
If WV votes McCain in November, that means nothing compared to all the state brung to us with your presence (and smarts, and heart and fire) here.
You seem concerned with percentages of categories of people. I was wonding which category you fit into.
DSM-IV.
You did not address either Bill Clinton’s or Geraldine Ferraro’s comments on race. Instead you brought up that “Obama is getting 90% of the black vote.” That does not respond to what they actually said, which in fact was racist and race baiting.
Nor did you address what good Clinton’s continued presence in the primary campaign serves when even you admit she has lost.
It seems that if you have no answer to one thing you just pass on to something else.
hmmm… sounds good. but it’s gotta be in the morning then, as i refrain from caffeine after 2pm.
It’s a beautiful day here and I’m off to take a nice long walk in the park. Bye all.
Sounds like a plan even tho I like to kick-off the night time hours with green tea.
Coffee then?
Well, feel free to point out ONE slur by me against any commenter on this blog.
I, on the other hand, have had my arguments called “BS” (I haven’t even done that), had it inferred that I am a zoo animal who must not be fed, also referred to as “fair game” (again, an animal reference as well as being called prey on which to attack), have had plenty of hostility tossed my way for no reason other than I either supported Clinton or post reasons why I do not Obama, on another blog was told by two Obama supporters that I should kill myself, asked if I vomit when I look in the mirror, among other pretty vile stuff, in addition to seeing the viciousness directed at Clinton herself.
But this is why I refer to a generic rather than target specific individuals, which I think is wrong.
I have answered people who’ve been pretty rude to me in a civil manner. And since Obama has made changing the tone a campaign issue, it seems to me it is therefore a legitimate point of discussion if I happen to think there has been very little change of tone.
I did address them.
Selise,
Is it acceptable that Merk @299 is now indicating that I suffer from some unnamed mental illness that can be found in the DSM-IV?
Please let me know of a post of mine that comes close to that kind of personal attack or rudeness directed at any commenter here.
.
i nominate this as the wisest of all the 300+ comments in this thread.
i did not know that comment was directed at you.
but regardless, i agree – that is completely over the line imo.
Sound like a good idea to me! ttyl :)
As a reference librarian, I sometimes recommend titles that may help
anyone gain an enhanced perspective on behaviors they see all around
them, everyday, anywhere… regardless of race, creed, color. Google
and DSM-IV, DSM-TR, are standard quick references, dictionaries if you
like, always helpful.
@ 219
Our “hostility” will end once Clinton’s misguided and destructive campaign ends. The Clintons dished out all kinds of trash and basically aligned themselves with the McCain campaign. McCain was seen constantly parroting the Clinton themes against what the Repugs knew was the future nominee. For awhile there it seemed to both Obama supporters and the neutrals that Clinton was acting as McCain’s running mate.
Your total lack of perspective isn’t very unique though.
Clinton could have won this thing. Her and Bill’s tactics are what brought the skeptical neutral parties over to our side more than Obama himself. The majority of the party felt the bad vibes and decided that there was no room for it. Luckily she has turned down the nasty rhetoric, after she finally felt the boomerang that she had launched diminish her in North Carolina and Indiana. The fire from her scorched earth policy ended up toasting her as well.
If Operation Chaos hadn’t added 7% to her numbers here in Indiana she would have lost here as well. To defeat her fellow Democrat she employed Repug tactics, and it didn’t sit well with people.
If it stops by sometime in mid-June we can forgive and forget. If not she can relinquish her dreams for 2012 and 2016, and beyond, because we will not forget, or forgive, believe me.
It’s time to get behind the nominee. Or not. Period.
before leaving this wonderful thread, i should really leave oldgold a comment on the exit polls… since i promised to take a look. re: oldgold’s claim that “Obama has had trouble connecting with white working class voters.” was not explained by meng bomin’s diary showing the correlation with geography (appalachia).
i’ve only looked at ohio so far (of the three states suggested; oh, tx, ri). my subjective take is that race is indeed a big difference (whites go for clinton and blacks for obama) – but not class (looking at both family income and education level – not sure what has the best correlation with social class). looks to me like the other big differences show up in 1) age and 2) population density. young voters and city voters support obama, older voters and voters from low pop. density areas go for clinton.
oh, well… i’m off to try to read the parallels manual and sit in the sun.
The Clintons have been very friendly to certain Black leaders, Black people, no, no. It is a stretch for you to say otherwise. Remember when the Clintons came to New York and the Clintons wanted to open up a very, very expensive ex-president office on Central Park South next to Carnegie Hall, way up top great views, great restaurants. The Clintons had no intention of going to Harlem. Then Delay got his last licks in and the Republican congress would not approve the rent and the Clintons went to Harlem, another publicity stunt.
JUNO, the Clintons are a waste of time, your time, my time, Congress’ time. The Clintons are boring problems and need to get out of the way, now, fast.
I’m wonkish because I phonebank and volunteer? Ummm come talk to me about that.
nevermind. I’m sleep deprived *g*
i’m only a lowly cultural studies/post colonial theory wonk. i’m just an active supporter. well today i’m a gray/white 3 day old kitty wonk *g*
So then what you’re saying is that Obama is all for unity and changing the tone and ending negative politics…just so long as everyone else does first?
How’s that work?
That is not a slur at any individual, which is what I asked for. It isn’t even a slur since it is true.
Carlo,
Juno only parses.
Please Carlo, the Clintons need to be completely marginalized out of the Democratic Party. Their politics are unproductive and damaging to progressive interests. The Clintons need to get out of the way, now and in the future.
http://www.realclearpolitics.c….._at_o.html
Juno, that’s a threat? The Clintons are an illusion. The Democratic Party will just fine without them.