Comments on: The Know Nothings determined to win

By: tw3k

tw3k — Tue, 13 May 2008 01:54:32 +0000

Thanks for that background. I didn’t read the post and just kinda jump on bmeisen’s argument. I’m too used to the voter id thing being a veiled attempt to implement RealID.

By: pseudonymousinnc

pseudonymousinnc — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:44:33 +0000

tw3k: bmeisen’s talking about the model that’s common in continental Europe, where there’s address registration and (sometimes) a national ID card (e.g. Germany.) Like I said, it’s not a model that’s common in the Anglosphere — Britain, the US, Canada, Australia etc. — and it’s one that’s not as easy to graft onto those countries, though I generally don’t have any problems with how it’s used in those countries where it’s used.

In other bits of the Anglosphere, though, voter registration is handled very differently, with the emphasis on the authorities to get people registered and maintain the roll appropriately, checking eligibility with vital records etc. In Australia, the issue of turnout is handled with mandatory voting and weekend elections.

Like I said, the issue here isn’t plastic cards or pieces of paper: it’s trust in the system, and that extends back to the days of Jim Crow, when many African-Americans were simply disregarded by local registrars of vital records. There are many, many contemporaries of John McCain who lack the kind of paperwork that Missouri wants , simply because they were Born While Black in segregated states. There’s no coherent standard for birth certificates.

That it would be easier for Lillie Lewis to pay some kids at Kinko’s to run off something fake but official-looking than to obtain the kind of paperwork that Missouri might demand is a clear sign that the process is messed up.

By: bmeisen

bmeisen — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:27:38 +0000

I live in Germany where I am registered as an alien at the citizen registration office. I registered with the office when I arrived, as required by law. I provided my name, address, and birthdate as well as a copy of my passport. I also showed the clerk my apartment rental contract or lease. She looked at it and returned it to me. My wife, a German, also registered. She is notified of upcoming elections, including instructions on voting procedures. When she goes to vote she brings her photo ID with her and shows it before voting. Voter turnout is usually in the 80’s. I have no fear that the government will use the information that I provided to the citizen registration office against me. I strongly believe that the information equips the government to make wise decisions for example about where to build new schools or provide new services.

By: tw3k

tw3k — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:12:51 +0000

Where in the world are you?

By: bmeisen

bmeisen — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:10:43 +0000

I honestly don’t know what RealID is. It may be a copyrighted biometric ID. I think a non-copyrighted biometric standard is OK, as long as privacy principels are observed. The government would be forbidden from sharing or selling their copy of your digital photo. This presumes that the courts would be willing to defend our rights which is not a given today.

By: pseudonymousinnc

pseudonymousinnc — Mon, 12 May 2008 21:52:50 +0000

I have points of disagreement with your wider argument, but it’s definitely coherent, and a model for how continental European countries deal with issues of identification. There’s not the same attachment to tokens of identity in the Anglosphere, particularly in the US with its distributed model of federal, state and local.

(To increase turnout? Mandatory voting on the Australian model, combined with proactive registration. And make election day a federal holiday.)

By: tw3k

tw3k — Mon, 12 May 2008 21:47:39 +0000

You speak is if you have vested interest in RealID.

By: bmeisen

bmeisen — Mon, 12 May 2008 21:29:36 +0000

Electoral mechanics in the US produce low voter turnout and thereby promote a non-constitutional 2-party system that ultimately serves elite interests only. These mechanics are characterized by a lack of uniform voting procedures, a lack of uniform registration procedures, and voting on workdays during working hours. As I understand them, the Missouri and Indiana laws would lower turnout. The problem isn’t that they introduce photo ID requirements per se. These I argue are desireable. The laws are flawed because they introduce the requirement in isolation from other points of contact between the state and its citizens. I believe that the photo ID requirement, when introduced at a higher point in the civic hierarchy, could lead to increased voter turnout. This is the area that should be of primary concern to reformers. Stories about illegal aliens voting only serve the propaganda interests of Dems and Reps. No effort should be spared to increase turnout. We can start by requiring citizens to register as citizens by showing photo ID at the citizen registration office in their hometowns. This will help the government serve them better. Seeing the results of effective government, people will be more likely to vote.

By: pseudonymousinnc

pseudonymousinnc — Mon, 12 May 2008 21:00:22 +0000

Go to every GOP stronghold precinct as pollwatchers and demand that each voter provide proof of citizenship. Every last one. Let’s see if those people are willing to wait in line for hours to have their citizenship questioned.

If you wanted to push hard enough, you could probably deny John McCain the right to vote. Why? As Brian Schweitzer has noted, there’s no secure standard for birth certificates from the 1930s. How the heck do we know for sure that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to US citizen parents?

This isn’t about pieces of paper, it’s about trust, and if someone decides that they don’t want to trust you with the vote, then no amount of paper will suffice.

By: laserda

laserda — Mon, 12 May 2008 20:50:35 +0000

Hey, this is real simple, folks. If the ‘Thugs plan to play this ball with us, then we turn it around and play it right back at them. Go to every GOP stronghold precinct as pollwatchers and demand that each voter provide proof of citizenship. Every last one. Let’s see if those people are willing to wait in line for hours to have their citizenship questioned.

Maybe then they’ll get the message.