Last week our own nimble fingered Christy Hardin Smith courageously live blogged a hearing convened by Russ Feingold to examine what he is calling "Secret Law." BTW, the whole idea of secret law is kind of an oxymoron because how can a populace obey a law it doesn’t know exists or know if anyone else is violating a law that they don’t know exists? But I digress into logic, silly me, we’re talking about Bushworld–a place where the laws of logic don’t apply!!!
The New York Times is reporting that the DOJ is going to turn over all or parts of yet another batch of secret legal opinions. There seems to be an inexhaustable supply.
In a partial concession to Congressional pressure, the Bush administration agreed on Wednesday to show the Senate and House Intelligence Committees secret Justice Department legal opinions justifying harsh interrogation techniques that critics call torture.
At the hearing, a department official, John P. Elwood, disclosed a previously unpublicized method to cloak government activities. Mr. Elwood acknowledged that the administration believed that the president could ignore or modify existing executive orders that he or other presidents have issued without disclosing the new interpretation.
Ahem, that would be Mr. Elwood confirming that Marcy Wheeler has been right all along about the Pixie Dust?
Mr. Elwood, citing a 1980s precedent, said there was nothing new or unusual about such a view.
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, challenged Mr. Elwood, saying the administration’s legal stance would let it secretly operate programs that are at odds with public executive orders that to all appearances remain in force.
–snip–
J. William Leonard, the top official overseeing document classification from 2002 until January, challenged the classifying of legal analyses. Referring to a Justice Department opinion in March 2003 on interrogation that was released this year, Mr. Leonard said that it should not have been classified and that marking it “secret” showed “either profound ignorance of or deep contempt for” classification rules. Even with the release of the memorandum, several major legal opinions on interrogation remain secret. Though the Justice Department is offering to show those opinions to the Intelligence Committees, officials gave no indication that any of the opinions would be made public.
Mr. Whitehouse, who sits on the Judiciary and Intelligence Committees, has said the administration’s contention that it can selectively modify executive orders “turns The Federal Register into a screen of falsehoods behind whose phony regulations lawless programs can operate in secret.”
That reference to the Federal Register reflects the past practice of actually PUBLISHING Executive Orders, so the rest of us would know what they said. Oh, and in olden days (read, before the Supreme Court annointed Shrub to be King) OLC opinions were routinely published, too.
According to the Congressional Research Service [pdf] Report on Presidential Claims of Executive Priviledge (Hmmm? It was updated in April 2008, I wonder who ordered that up?)
recent appellate court rulings cast considerable doubt on the broad claims of privilege posited by OLC in the past and now by the Clement Memo and the July 10, 2007, OLC opinion on witness immunity. Taken together, Espy and Judicial Watch arguably have effected important qualifications and restraints on the nature, scope and reach of the presidential communications privilege.
So, Bill Leonard says that legal opinions ought not be classified in the first place. CRS doesn’t think Shrub’s various invocations of Executive Priviledge are going to hold much water. It seems to me that if a branch of Congress were to go to court to get any of this stuff, it would probably win, just sayin’s all.
Bottom line, there are still more Yoo torture memos out there. We already knew that because he refers to them in footnotes of the memos we already know about. There is also evidently a memo or Executive Order floating around somewhere in secretspace, that establishes that Marcy’s Pixie Dust is real. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that John Yoo may have written that one too.
The hallmarks of a John Yoo memo seem to be 1) the laws of logic do not apply, 2) don’t cite any statutes or cases that clearly forbid the thing you want to enable, 3) misapply and take quotes out of context from the cases you do cite to falsely claim that they stand for something (usually the direct opposite) of what they actually stand for, 4) completely ignore the real world consequences that will ensue if anyone actually acts on the fig leaf advice given in the memo.
Question for you legal philosphers out there: If we know that the leading expert on classification of documents says that a document has been illegally classified, and if we can ID that document with sufficient specificity–say because John Yoo put its title and date of non publication in a footnote–should not the legislative branch be able to bring an action before the judicial branch for a writ of mandamus to compel the de-classification of that document?
Sixteenth in a series on torture and the law
[Editor's note: This photo by takomabibelot features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
Related posts:






Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

LHP!
So?
What!
LHP for Congress!!
At the hearing, a department official, John P. Elwood, disclosed a previously unpublicized method to cloak government activities. Mr. Elwood acknowledged that the administration believed that the president could ignore or modify existing executive orders that he or other presidents have issued without disclosing the new interpretation.
Who leaked that info to our side and provided evidence cause without collaborating evidence I don’t see Elwood admitting anything that he does not have to?
Are the Bushies jumping ship trading info for secret immunity? Assuming their is such a thing as secret immunity (wink).
She’s running When?
LHP Snap!!!!
“If we know that the leading expert on classification of documents says that a document has been illegally classified, and
if we can ID that document with sufficient specificity–say because John Yoo put its title and date of non publication in a footnote–
should not the legislative branch be able to bring an action before the judicial branch for a writ of mandamus to compel the de-classification of that document?”
O-o-o-o, LHP! (Raising hand)
Here’s the direct link on mandamus!
This just sounds so totally cool, and perhaps a way around the labyrinthine and lengthy court battles over subpoenas, and a history lesson, to boot!
How can we get the ball rolling on this???
Bob in HI
Mr. Elwood, citing a 1980s precedent, said there was nothing new or unusual about such a view.
Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, challenged Mr. Elwood, saying the administration’s legal stance would let it secretly operate programs that are at odds with public executive orders that to all appearances remain in force.
That seems weak how can you have laws on the books that are secretly repealed? Rule of law becomes then anything the President wants it to be but the President does not have to tell you what he rules are? Did Alice Feed John Yoo a Mushroom and Grow Ten Feet Tall!
1,836 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Drip…drip…drip…that’s the sound of the pipes beginnin’ ta leak from the fascist plumbin’. The krypto Nazis are frantic and scramblin’ around with their red, white and blue umbrellas screamin’ that the Amerkan sky is fallin’ and our daughters are gunna all be taken off ta caves ta be raped by those dirty d*rkies. Hopefully both the Senate and the House will keep the pressure up with hearings as we get close ta the Spring recess…I’m bettin’ that the pipes break and we see Senate referrals to House impeachment inquiries before the Denver Convention.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, AND WATCH OUT FOR DROWNIN’ RATS!!
Mod note: * Edited and released by mod
For Senate! I am tired of those wishy-washy dish towels we have there.
Digg this
It’s just a rumor at this point, but wouldn’t it be cool? She’s not into fundraising, though, which is understandable. I’d send her half of my stimulus check (if it ever really comes)in a heartbeat!
A Secret Society has been running America for the past eight years, but yet, we’ve been able to see them, we know their names, and we know what they look like, but everything they’ve done has been one big giant secret, because their whole intention of being in the White House before 2000 wasn’t for the good of the American people. It was to benefit their whacked ideologies of how America should be run, which is, RUN IT AS A DICTATORSHIP NO DIFFERENT THAN SAUDI ARABIA OR UZBEKISTAN.
Spit.
Berenson, at that hearing of Feingold’s, kept saying that OLC was doing a great job of publishing OLC opinions, but, said that
pixie dustnational security issues precluded the publication of some… Feingold flatly rejected it, saying that, they’re only opinions and not descriptions of ways and means of security issues… Brownback was pathetic and fawned all over Berenson…If one breaks a secret law one must justify ones self to a point in time when the law wasn’t a secret or didn’t exist in a state of secrecy. Having broken a law in secret is a ’secret law breakers’ objective in the first place as not to be uncovered as a lawbreaker secret or otherwise. As for the party of the first part, is their opinion a secret as well as the law that’s kept secret? Speaking of secrets, where is the Prez’s favorite AG?
Due to far to many Bush years, I must ask.. Is illegal classification of documents a crime? /s
A Secret Society has been running America for the past eight years, but yet, we’ve been able to see them, we know their names, and we know what they look like, but everything they’ve done has been one big giant secret, because their whole intention of being in the White House before 2000 wasn’t for the good of the American people. It was to benefit their whacked ideologies of how America should be run, which is, RUN IT AS A DICTATORSHIP NO DIFFERENT THAN SAUDI ARABIA OR UZBEKISTAN.
—————–
and the PLUNDER of our treasury to handfull of bastids….mission accomplished ..sheds tear
Off topic…
Wow. Did anyone else experience a server/Error 404 just now? I did. I panicked as usual. Nice to see your smiley faces again. ;-)
As anyone who has watched Peter Pan knows that pixie dust is aquired by paddling a pixie’s bottom. To get the amounts of dust required for their needs, I am assuming that there is a cellblock at Gitmo where they are torturing pixiers.
Yay! Get it all published in the Federal Register for all to see. Then deconstruct it to make it very clear how it happened and who is responsible; let the indictments begin.
Lurking Moderator: The site is still hanging up. Object not found… etc.
Heh, this is dead on, about Hill…! ;-)
Yep. Use the White House as the CEO’s office of America Inc. and squander what you can before you’re fired. Assholes.
We’re back. And thanks for this post, LHP. I really enjoyed EW’s Pixie Dust articles.
I didn’t see that message, but something happened.
I had to go to the home page and reload the entire post to cure it.
Well, Bush’s Department of Justice looks for Bush to tell them what to do. He’s a little ticked that Whitehouse, Feingold, and the rest of the dems don’t want to play by his rules. (Rules he can change anytime he wants with a secret law.) You have to remember who W is deep down inside.
I got it, too. Assumed the worst, considering the subject matter…
whew..then it was not just me. this is the second time this has happened to me today and I just go crazy for a seconed…
Yeah. I keep trolling through FOX wondering why he hasn’t been hired on. Poor recollection, perhaps. And I bet W never calls him…he’s used up.
LMAO!!!!
Yes, FDL hiccuped and it was panic inducing! I thought for a moment that LHP had been taken hostage because of her awesome post. Phew. Glad that didn’t happen.
Cheney sending messages. I don’t quite know what to make of it, but I’m sure its not good.
http://washingtonbureau.typepa…..ys-sp.html
Is this really any different MO then the Niger document with unknown origins, or Anthrax that shows up from an unknown origin or secret evidence of Irans nuclear ambitions from a secret location? And none of it had any basis in reality.
The hallmarks of a John Yoo memo seem to be 1) the laws of logic do not apply,
2) don’t cite any statutes or cases that clearly forbid the thing you want to enable,
3) misapply and take quotes out of context from the cases you do cite to falsely claim that they stand for something (usually the direct opposite) of what they actually stand for, 4) completely ignore the real world consequences that will ensue if anyone actually acts on the fig leaf advice given in the memo.
Question for you legal philosphers out there: If we know that the leading expert on classification of documents says that a document has been illegally classified, and if we can ID that document with sufficient specificity–say because John Yoo put its title and date of non publication in a footnote–should not the legislative branch be able to bring an action before the judicial branch for a writ of mandamus to compel the de-classification of that document?
Question for you
legal philosphersCollege Freshmen what happens if you turn in a research paperand completely ignore logic? 1) the laws of logic do not apply, you flunk
What happens if you don’t site your sources or even worse don’t use sources and make stuff up? you flunk
2) don’t cite any statutes or cases that clearly forbid the thing you want to enable, YOU FLUNK
3) misapply and take quotes out of context from the cases you do cite to falsely claim that they stand for something (usually the direct opposite) of what they actually stand for, YOU FLUNK
4) completely ignore the real world consequences that will ensue if anyone actually acts on the fig leaf advice given in the memo. YOU FLUNK
Just what College did John Yoo get his degree from? Cause my Elite Community College and 4 year State School did not allow such slipshod work.
Bwahahaha!
tin foil hat just removed here too,hope it isnt pre mature
my bold. that bit made me laugh when hugh sent me the nyt link.
unpublicized my ass. not just marcy – but senator whitehouse from the senate floor.
but i guess, to the folks at the nyt, it’s not for real unless they’ve publish it. asshats.
p.s. lhp – i have the complete audio file (mp3) of tuesday’s hjc hearing for you (the one with philippe sands)… but it’s on my ibook which is currently being backed up (so no access to email, etc until that is done), will email you later tonight if you still want the link.
yeah this is the second time today I got it on another post whats up?
What exactly made the live blogging “courageous”???
Vice President Dick Cheney, arriving in Philadelphia today to watch economic stimulus rebate checks processed at a government financial center, had a thick hardcover book tucked under his arm as he got off Air Force Two at Willow Grove Naval Air Station.
Aides said the book was “Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45,” by the British historian Max Hastings.
Reviews on Amazon.com describe the book as a brutally honest recounting of some of World War II’s bloodiest clashes in the Pacific from the perspectives of the troops – American, Japanese, Australian, Russian and Chinese – more than the views of the generals and world leaders who sent them into battle.
The book’s main premise, according to reviews, is that the United States was justified in dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. “The myth that the Japanese were ready to surrender anyway has been so completely discredited by modern research that it is astonishing some writers continue to give it credence,” Hastings writes
————–
anybody here willing to chip in for an IKEA table sent to Nancy ,and Harry?
Keith talking about Hillary staff cutting book deals—things that a winning campaign staff wouldn’t have the time to be doing right now. So who would line up at the book store to buy a book by Howard Wolfson?
You have to remember who W is deep down inside.
A Cranky three year old who needs a time out and nap?
Okay, I feel better now. I did a post a few months ago about Paul Tibbets’ death and how I didn’t think this man should be considered a hero because he dropped an atomic bomb on a city. Well, you should have seen the neocons coming out of the woodwork asking me to hang myself, throw myself off a cliff, or just find a way to kill my very unpatriotic self to question this “great man” who made a fortune throughout his life on the backs of the people he killed!
My opinion still stands. There were lots of myths going around to justify what we were doing. No different today. Hell, even the stockmarket is ruled by rumors for crying out loud.
The book’s main premise, according to reviews, is that the United States was justified in dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Cheenee porn.
could have dropped it on a nearby island,,it was awfull ,and why 2for fuksake?
I think Big Brother is having a heart attack with all these “Vinnies in an efficiency apartment” kind of reporting going on here at FireDogLake. LOL They’re panicked again. Get your Cheeto’s ready! It’s gonna be a very long election season! ;-)
Anyone with a conscience would not have been able to live with themselves after having done such a thing. Even if they thought it the right thing to do for whatever reason.
he is so OBVIOUSLY deranged just like HITLER,and he is in charge
I wished they had never dropped either of them, because it caused the world to rear up like a spider at us. Not good.
no shit,and named the forking plane after his FORKIN MOTHER …oh jeeeeeeeeebus
Not I.
1 word…..C I V I L I A N S
Analyzing defeat is useful but chances are all the books are it wasn’t my fault or if only Hilary listened to me variety. Those books would be torture to read.
cheney is about to do something hideous,and what can we do
Exactly, RevDeb. He’s not a hero in my book, but he is to the fake-unpatriotic-Americans who believe if America is killing people and people are dying at our hands, somehow that makes us all powerful and a united US flag pin nation who thinks, “My country right or wrong!”!
Sickening.
By the way, the neocons are still pissed off that I didn’t submit to their demands by killing myself. LOL *shaking head* Oh how they love death! Death perverts! Death is porno to the neocons!
(sorry for the screaming but I can’t stand the neocons as you can tell) ;-)
I’d like it too, selise, if possible. I haven’t heard it yet.
Hugs.
thanks LHP!
“At the hearing, a department official, John P. Elwood, disclosed a previously unpublicized method to cloak government activities. Mr. Elwood acknowledged that the administration believed that the president could ignore or modify existing executive orders that he or other presidents have issued without disclosing the new interpretation.”
Hell, that’s what i tried to tell my mom when she yelled at me for getting in the cookie jar right before dinner. I told her dad said it was ok, “just don’t tell mom”. But she didn’t buy it and grounded me anyway…
Over at TPM:
my bold.
Melissa Bean for cripes sake!!!!!
Not a good sign as far as his talent at choosing character. She’s as red as a blue person can be. She would be just about on the top of my list for people in need of a primary loss.
They are not going to drop nuclear bombs on anybody.
Bunker busters in Iran (probably) and depleted uranium bombs in Iraq (yes, done)…but they are not going to “nuke” anybody.
LHP:
Dontchya know? They’re fans of Dean Wormer
;-)
who cares,poorly conceived and poorly implemented…read today M.Penn thought the dem primmaries were winner take all
10,000,000.00$ down the drain
HD and SY, this was for show. If he were reading something he didn’t want publicized, the books would be in a duffle bag.
looseheadprop asks:
From all indications with the court packing that has gone on, most of the Federalist Society Judges would just deny that the Legislative Branch has any standing, Case Dismissed.
Civilians? Sha-million$! … to Cheney’s ilk, people are merely ‘things’ which have no value unless, somehow, they can be converted into … money!
Ha! ‘Bout it.
mebbe tactical nukes…whatever…i hate them muchly
will try to remember to leave a link at the bottom of this thread later tonight. but if i forget, please remind me!
definitely worth the listen (and i’ve now listened to it twice).
We are just the part of the 70%ers who have computers and free time if anything its the other 70%ers who don’t have the time to vent who are more stressed (being here relaxes me).
But imagine how much more stressed the average voter is he knows he is getting screwed on gas prices, food prices, healthcare, the dollar dropping in value and he has been silent anger building.
Big Brother is soooo screwed.
ahhhhhhhhhh prolly so…sips more ROLLING ROCK.i know …he scares me
Kafka territory.
By the way, Charlie Savage is going over to the Gray Lady. Boston’s loss.
He says he intends to maintain his integrity. I believe him.
huh? part of a caolition is listening to all folks even ones you don’t necessairyl agree with and she may well attract the conservative dems. when the time comes, we work to kick her ass to the curb but I’m not ready to condem HIS character over this. Not when there are candidates running around who are advocating their position based on race and such
They’ve ordered the residents of Sadr City to leave…! Not looking good…! 8-(
It seems that this administration really, really wants to go out with a bang. It is no use in hoping that the military won’t go along. They’ll use the AF and they would probably be all for it. The ultimate use of air power.
LOL
such as it is…
Want to hear what scares me? They have at their disposal bunker busting bombs that can enter the earth five stories down and then explode. The Lunatics we have running our nation could very easily use this kind of bomb on Iran and then say, “It was an earthquake that caused the damage” or something to that effect. Not sure how far these bunker busting bombs can travel, but I wouldn’t put it past the Lunatics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_buster
Gawd almighty.
Fallujah Redux
Something is gonna boomarang….sooner or later…bigtime.
It’s one thing to listen to folks you don’t necessarily agree with. It’s another thing to put them in leadership positions. Which leads me to think he doesn’t not agree with her. That is what scares me. No, not as much as Hillary, but . . .
Don’t forget the Thompson’s Waterseal.
please somebody say no to him,or slip him a Putin cocktail
Well, that is Pulitzer Prise winner Charlie Savage who pretty much single handedly kept the signing statements issue alive
Oh, I know. I wondered if that big 9.0 earthquake that created the Tsunami was caused by something like that.
They can do all kinds of thing with what they have…including influence the weather.
shit
Basically an inter-office transfer and reality with the Times, he’ll get even more coverage.
My $.02
I know. We are lucky to have blogging to get our feelings out everyday and know that others are also feeling the same as we are. I can’t even imagine what my mental status would be today if I didn’t have the Internet. Some would say I’m already crazy (LOL), but I know for myself, blogging calms my nerves and has kept me sane just as it has you.
Big Brother can screw off. I’m sick of him. ;-)
They just want to go out…rich.
leadership? she is the head whip bean counter. what is she leading him on?
(blushing)mmm, wrong Savage…
thanks for the laugh,that guy is up to no good again
Charlie has been one of the few really good guys out there. He’s been like the Globe’s version of Glenn Greenwald as far as I’m concerned. We need him to keep doing the great investigative work he’s been doing.
i hope you are right, but i’ve certainly thought they would like to trash that taboo too. hopefully that’s just the paranoia i have wtr this administration.
IRAN is TEH prone to earthquakes iirc
falluja redux?
damn. damn. damn.
Remember when the US submarine came ashore with damage to it on Guam and one dead soldier on board right around the time the tsunami hit Indonesia killing a quarter of a million people in an instant? Well, I said on my blog that I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a nuclear attack or some kind of ’shark fight’ underwater that caused it, because there was a US submarine, a Chinese submarine and a Russian submarine all in the vicinity at the time all of this happened?
Again, a hunch.
how many poor inocents will have to die this time{{{{{shudder}}}}}}
Thanks!
Yup, Their gonna do a Falluja. Echoes of VN, destrotying the city to save it.
Obama’s chief superdelegate whip, Rep. Melissa Bean (D-IL), about the state of play, and she makes a surprising assertion: Not only has Rev. Wright not posed a problem for superdelegates, but it’s actually encouraged them to come out for Obama sooner. Surprising and counterintuitive. Count me as skeptical.
Obama’s chief superdelegate whip, Rep. Melissa Bean (D-IL), about the state of play, and she makes a surprising assertion: Not only has Rev. Wright not posed a problem for superdelegates, but it’s actually encouraged them to come out for Obama sooner. Surprising and counterintuitive. Count me as skeptical.
I disagree I used to live in her district its so right I grew up thinking the Chicago Tribune was a liberal paper.
If Melissa Bean feels that she can go home to that District (Rummy’s old district) and keep supporting Obama after the Rev Wright controversy then the problem is over.
i never heard that story…cringe
egads. That is what happens when two separate thought collide.
I meant to ask what her leadership role is
Wow! This must mean a nice raise-along with prestige-for Savage.
boy Hills nice WHITE overlords love the stealing and maiming,and REDRUM
What was the population of Falluga? Sadr City is 2 to 2.5 million, iirc.
Apparently they hit an “unchartered” mound under the sea:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6801642/
Oh, okay, they’re constantly roaming the ocean recording every little pebble in their wake, but yet, a big huge mound they didn’t see and had never recorded it? Sounds fishy to me (and yes I know the ocean is huge, but come on, how long have we had submarines in the Pacific?).
omg!
I almost titled my post that… I opted for the straight forward one…!
investigative reporter with no particular portfolio is what he he said in an e-mail. I’d love to see him dig into the Scott Bloch conundrum. If Marcy can’t figure out what gives there’s got to be lots of the story we don’t know about.
Submarines use passive sonar. It is very difficult to hear a sea mount :o)
It used to be 2.5 million, used to be…! 8-(
He hasn’t been in the public eye much lately. And now he’s in Philly watching them mail checks? What’s up with that? One would think he’d be out puffing up his boy(s).
I believe they do want to try out “tactical” nukes, but not the “thermonuclear” bombs….
Some officials say, however, that the usual underwater sea lanes used by U.S. submarines have been fully charted and it’s not clear why the sub, which was apparently in transit from Guam to Australia, would have been operating in waters that were not adequately charted.
It was unclear if the sub was traveling in a routine sea lane for submarines, which would have been thoroughly charted
——–
my mind sez BS
If they use nukes there will be radiation even if it goes off in the ground. But a fusion bomb produces an electromagnetic pulse that would fry everything electric from your car battery to your computer for hundreds, thousands of miles?
I’m not arguing it won’t happen just that there is no way to hide it from the world. That and we have lots of Scary/interesting opitions.
it is totally stark raving batshit insane,killer of small animals and anybody who thwarts him
Good point.
Here’s a part of the story that is a little suspect to me. The accident occured under the surface of the water, but yet…
Am I reading it wrong?
And just where in the hell do they expect them to go. Two million more refugees?
FWIW, oceans cover approximately 70% of the Earth’s surface. Even with all the satellite help, there are areas of the land mass of the earth that is not fully charted.
It is no surprise there are parts of oceans that have not been fully charted.
omg…..more beer ,i mean vodka please
Suitcase nukes are an other option.
Could be that their depth recording equipment was faulty…that they were not really at the depth reported…a CYA type of thing….or…it could have been a volcanic mound…but…sounds like CYA to me.
i seem to remember something on the order of 700,000 before we sacked the city? not sure where i got that from though – maybe dahr jamail?
white phosphorus, next gen napalm,….
We’re going to be reading about this corrupt administration for the rest of our lives. I keep thinking I’m shockproof, and then something else happens. (Bush acknowledges that he approved of the torture tactics…) And watching the press not report on it is half the fun.
True. I just don’t trust them. What kind of bomb they’ll use to make it appear as something else (a natural occurrence) is not known. Hell, they’re the type who would use gasoline and a match just to reek havoc.
That’s what I’m saying…CYA…they crashed into the fishing boat and blamed it on a “mound”…
ive never said this in my life,i shall obtain a urine samople,and some day ..i shall piss on cheneys grave mebbe a Lalique perfume flask
Evacuate to open air football/soccer stadiums. (free popcorn)
OT
American International Group (AIG) joined the ranks of the credit crisis’s biggest losers Thursday, reporting a $7.81 billion first-quarter loss and announcing plans to raise $12.5 billion in fresh capital as losses on complex securities soared.
http://money.cnn.com/news/news…..RTUNE5.htm
ko talking about hagee’s retraction of his retraction
Uh people? When they were ascending to the top of the water, they hit a Japanese submarine and sunk it causing 9 to die!
They hit a “mound”? How about the truth and say, “We hit a Japanese submarine by mistake because our equipment sucks ass”? LOL
Check. it. out.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/n…../index.htm
This was when we had Presidents who were sane.
Now we have a President and a VP who read books whose premise that dropping nukes is a good thing
Tell me again why impeachment is off the table, Nancy Pelosi?
A sea lane is a relatively broad swath of ocean.
You would definitely be thrown around and it is no surprise that people were seriously injured as there is a lot of inertia involved. It is SOP to emergency blow whenever things go wrong, you really need to get the surface. Thee is no telling how deep they were operating.
Ooops. ***Japanese fishing boat
what is Babs take on this? Are these folks better off too?
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc…..4F32AD3138
War crime. Manufactured exclusively in Pine Bluff Arkansas, Arsenal, one of Mark Pryors favorite projects.. Did I say WAR CRIME?
Heh, a sad move… I’m sure that’ll win Maliki a few votes in October’s up coming elections…!
Could have been snapping cables too. Who knows?
That’s what I’m saying. Mound, shmound….
Can they stand on the deck of the submarine when it’s under water? Or is there a deck inside the sub? That’s the point I was trying to make above. From what the article says, they were over 500 feet below the surface when the collision happened and when they ascended to the surface, they hit a Japanese fishing boat.
India and Pakistan would both detect the radiation and tell the world because they would hope that it turned out to be us in Iran and not each other firring the nukes airborne radiation would be impossible to hide unless the blast was completely contained.
If they do, they might as well put up signs saying suicide bombers strike here.
Either Cheney has something REALLY BIG hanging over Nancy’s head. Or, she’s no more principled than he is and is in on the deal. Makes one wonder. Seriously.
He retracted what?
Two different incidents. The Greenville hit the fishing boat off of Hawaii when it was screwing around. The San Fransisco hit a geological formation or whatever. The fathometer (depth Sounder to you) is an ACTIVE sonar, it pings and can be heard a long way off. If you are sneaking around, which is what Fast Attack boats do (These both are Fast Attack Submarines of the LA Class, btw) you don’t ping. No emissions at all.
CheneyAddington’s vision of Presidential power is what’s at issue here. I see the ideology, but no methodology. They make stuff up, devise arguments to excuse whatever behavior surfaces in the public eye. Addington’s view of Executive Orders is that the king can do no wrong. He can violate no laws, even his own.
Briefly, Executive Orders are part of the President’s rulemaking authority. An EO is a binding law corresponding to a legislative statute, but typically narrower in scope. It provides guidance to those using powers delegated to them by the President. Like any laws, they permit some behavior or prohibit other behavior.
The courts enforce EO’s, Congressional legislation and agency rules as written. If the Executive, Congress or those agencies don’t like the court’s interpretations, they have to change their orders, laws or regulations. People are bound only by the rules they’re told about, and only by those rules in effect at the time they act.
In the criminal law, there’s even a specific Constitutional restriction that prohibits penalizing anyone for behavior before that behavior is formally made illegal. Those few words prohibiting on ex post facto laws condense centuries of bloody conflict between king, parliament and country.
It’s hard to understate how radical is CheneyAddington’s vision of the presidency. They have tossed out finely crafted political compromises along with the rule of law, some that took centuries to establish. Their elaborate or snarky arguments boil down to l’etat, c’est moi. The President is subject to no laws, not even his own. That’s not representative, constitutional government. It’s dictatorship.
could have been a whale i shudder to think
Anyone else creeped out talking about nukes and America’s VP all in the same sentence? I am!!! Gawd that man has given me the creeps ever since he was “chosen” to be Georgie’s running mate before the 2000 election.
Oh. Well. Accidents happen.
White Phosphorus is used by the US as “Smoke” for marking purposes. That is the claimed use, of course the rounds have variable time fuses, which means they can be set for airburst. Rarely are there occasions when there is a need to mark a spot in the atmosphere with “smoke”. When I fist saw those rounds that was my first question too. I had always thought they were illegal.
On my last birthday my ex gave me a copy of Dr. Strangelove on DVD. Somehow I didn’t find it quite as funny as the last time I watched it. Something about the current bunch in power I think.
Kim Stanley Robinson has a great story about the guy who didn’t drop the bomb. Obviously an alternate universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Stanley_Robinson
first: NOLA got what it deserved becasue of teh gays
retractions: I shouldn’t have said that because I can’t read God’s mind
retraction of retraction: God always punishes sin
Not word for word but rather a synopsis
this brought a tear and my throat grew that lump you get when you know someone you’ve loved has died and there is nothing you can do to bring them back
what this interpretation means is that if an executive order says “the president may not eavesdrop on his political adversaries”
the president can intemperate that to mean;
“the president MUST eavesdrop on his political adversaries”
if a law says;
“the president cannot steal from Americans”
the president can interperate that to mean;
“the president MUST steal from Americans”
my heart is heavy and and my brain is numb
Extremely lucid description, eoh.
i loathe everything about him,no redeeming features at least Hitler could paint..”1/2g”
And he/they will keep on doing it as long as no one challenges their ability or authority to do so. And they know no one will.
thermonuclear are fusion bombs that are only good for genocidal war. we exploded a bunch of these in the marshall islands
the atomic bombs (uranium, plutonium) are fission devices. and are much smaller – on the order of what we dropped on japan. these are the ones that are a worry for proliferation.
then there are even smaller ones – i think the idea is to use them for bunker busters or other specialized weapons, but i don’t know much about them. prof foland is the expert on all this stuff.
personally, i’d rather we treat them all the same as far as the taboo on their use goes. but if you are a madman (see cheney) who wanted to break the taboo – i think you’d go small first.
it’s all fucking insane – we should be working on getting rid of all of them – worldwide.
let me add something here;
if there is a law or not, the president can produce a new executive order that says;
“the president can suspend elections if he wants to stay in office”
no kidding, that’s what that quote means, the president is now king
how is it possible this does not frighten pelosi?
how is it possible unless she is in league?
Sorry I’m so late to the thread. Was at a judges reception and then house hunting. I have time management issues this week. Sigh.
The way you get the ball rolling is by calling congress, by getting MSM to write and broadcast about it.
Conyers/Nadler have also been pressing DOJ on this.
http://judiciary.house.gov/Med…..080429.pdf
Cheney just ‘paints’ with a broader ‘brush’, sadly.
And loves the color red …
i think you did. and i’ll say it with you:
WAR fucking CRIME
we should work on getting rid of the button pushers …just sayin madame Speaker
I brought this up on a siun thread
we have to start wondering if there is a plan to depopularize and I don’t mean just other countries, I mean here in our country as much as anywhere else
Here is a picture of how the decks are set up. See the bottom of the page for the illustration. SSN-688 LA Class Submarine
Yes, but statute trumps his E.O.’s as I understand it. If the law says you can’t do it, you can’t do it…the only reason he does it, is because nobody stops him. That is why it is just pixie dust.
Am I wrong on this?
you mean DE POPULATE
I could be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the SF crash into the seamount was because they were using some kind of magnotometer to follow the maglines which were already mapped out and they were on a kind of cruise ccontrol, and that the earthquake caused the maglines to go off kilter … or something like that
I’m probably misremembering and totally wrong tho
It’s so sick what they’re using on Iraq as their pure enjoyment in testing their “skills” at warfare. That said, we have a VP who has said for years that he’d like to see less soldiers and more powerful bombs & other “fun stuff”, because in his mind, we would only need a few skilled pilots and Special Ops guys/gals to get the job done.
Again, he creeps me out. The man should be…I won’t say. I would be banned in an instant from here.
Ah! Glad I found your reply. House hunting?
Anyway, sounds like time to Spotlight.
Thanks,
Bob in HI
10 million children a year are dying of LACK of healthcare
I agree with you. They would start with the small ones. It’s all about shock and awe…intimidation and control…of the world by domination and force.
That is what the Neocons are all about. They are the most dangerous people in the world.
Well, once you’ve decided to toss out the Great Writ, what’s a little more parchment on the fire?
LOL Uh yeah, at least Hitler had that going for him. ;-)
how did we come to this,remind me/……………..MSM
oh, you’re gonna just love this, rumsfeld has the nerve to blame the generals for his decisions being the most inept from any secretary of defense in our history;
Rumsfeld blames the generals for poor pre-war planning.
sick sick man that rumsfeld guy, sick
Lurking Mod:
Web site still not operating properly. Appears to be a lot of background stuff trying to load and auto refresh. Weird.
he can’t be (unmentionable) … he’s already the un-dead
yes I do
Whoo Hoo Yes I do and thanx
starvation / lack of clean water and health care is their easiest method – this, i think, is the favorite weapon of the modern Ds as well as the Rs.
that would be your add servers, have your web master look at that
I’ve been away for awhile, so things may have changed a lot. They used to use inertial navigation systems. In the detection world Mag systems tended to work well perpendicular to the lines of flux but performed much poorer when running perpendicular to them.
less radiation than a fission bomb the blast is more powerful but the Electro Magnetic Pulse killing everything electrical cuts off communications, computers, car batteries, would make it my first choice and if you set it off above and not in a city you increase the number effected by the pulse.
Still it is a warcrime and genocidal
there will also be some man made flew with an antidote that is too “scarce” to get around
and there are “bombs” that are benign to property but not to populace
this will be made to look like some kind of terrorist attack
My 184 was intended for you, John.
Realize that Kissinger was for global depopulation years ago. He is still the Godfather. It is accomplished by starving people, dehydrating people, funding both sides of conflicts so they wipe themselves out, and engaging in military activities that wipe out people; especially if they are living where there are valuable natural resources, such as the M.E., and Africa.
Of course, Rummy – whose orders, like the Marine Colonel’s in A Few Good Men, are followed or people die – simply could do nothing about his problems for years and years. Doesn’t that suggest incompetence hiding behind bluster, or a criminal disregard for consequences?
This so deserves a post from Jane with the knives out that and I want in on the carving.
and now the unmentionable
is it possible pelosi is being blackmailed with something like this?
is that possible?
I don’t see fear in her eyes so I do not believe it, it actually looks like she adores bush when the two are togther
next thing you know, he’ll claim he was in the Men’s Room when all the decisions were made. spineless.
IIRC white phosphorus is older than napalm. We even have WP grenades, or did in Nam. Burns everything it touches.
“Suitcase” or “backpack” nukes are 2.5KT yield and were designed for smaller targets, not entire cities. More of a tactical device. 2.5KT equivalent to 2500 tons of TNT. That’s 2500 2000lb bombs. Just being outside of the blast area of a 500lb bomb will suck the air from your lungs. A thermonuclear air burst would turn Baghdad into green glass.
Just a little family dinner table discussion.
in which case, Kissinger’s his own version of the Black Plague.
Thank you. The decks are inside the submarine. ;-)
try clearing your cache. many times after a hiccup, depending on what your system was doing during the hiccup, it can get funky afterwards.
clearing the cache will many times resolve it
they rewrite history as if there is no record, they repeat over and over items that are clearly lies
and the wingnuts then use those statements as if there is actually a debate and oposite facts are just opinions
Too funnY!!
It’s a sad day when Hitler looks more human than the bunch we have currently in the White House put together.
There is no damned guidebook that says what the number ought to be. We were queued up to go up to what, 400-plus thousand.
Actually the Army has a very good idea how many troops it takes to secure an area and police a population of a given size we have done this before in Germany and Japan and no at first we really did think they might cause trouble so we made sure we had enough troops…and we got lucky.
Rummy is lying again.
yea me too. error 403. wierd.some kind of overload with the servers I guess
there’s a new post up but this one is too important for me to go read, I am compelled to stay down here
I think she has this challenge flirtatious power thing about W…I want to get him hooked..
Other than that…she’s basically “vacant”.
Thanks,
Hey, have you ever read Blind Man’s Bluff?
Just got done with it. Very interesting stuff
funny you would say that, I do believe if there is going to be martial law the first thing they will do is turn down the progressive blogs, whenever one goes down I go to the others to see if they’re still up
if the day comes when all progressive blogs go down I will know the day has come
From the Trinity Test Site. Trintite
he loved the Opera and architecture,and in in aweird way the german people,he tried to BEAUTIfy Germany..Bush?cheney…not so much Dubai they like a lot more they are the real TRAITORS
Tapping his foot?
Yes statute trumps EO and Signing Staements, but unless Congress stands up for its own lawmaking, the President continues to defy them
I haven’t, thanks for recommending it! A good friend of mine was the COB on the Aspro. I am sure that book mentions the Aspro!
It was a scary moment and I felt like my reality had warped into a weird dimension for a second there. Phew.
I think FDL gets too close to the truth sometimes and the Powers That Destroy Anything Good Because They’re Pure Evil, react to it.
Just a hunch I’m having…
;-)
OK, I spotlighted, but I can only do 10 reporters at a time. Everyone else, have at it!
Bob in HI
ko had one of the most consice sentences I have ever read, he relates in one sentence as much as it would take me a chapter to write;
Olbermann: The point of Iraq is to make sure there is war
I know and look what we ended up with:
A president who is a dry drunk, fake cowboy with a fake accent, who hid in bars so he wouldn’t have to go to Vietnam, an insider trading extraordinaire, a guy who can’t form a coherent sentence for the life of him, and the biggest liar who lies on top of lies to make himself feel better about what he’s done. He also colors with crayons still.
A VP who is pure Evil. No further explanation needed here. Self-explanatory.
please to read
you want your head to explode?
we knew before the war in Iraq that cheney creates his own data to create war and unrest, he did it with nixon before he did it with this administration
the fact that this is documented and we fell for it again is most disturbing
now they are doing it with Iran as well
Castle Bravo was about 15 megatons (and i think the soviets had one test at about 50 megatons?)
i think the ones we dropped on japan were about 10-20 kilotons?
the ones pakistan is support to have are, i think, 5-10 kilotons?
your suitcase nuke is 2.5 kilotons.
… just to put it in perspective (if i have the numbers right). thermonuclear is genocidal plus. there no reason on this earth that they should exist.
Been there a couple of times. Spooky place. Spookier is Sandia Lab. Livermore Lab just outside SanFran is really cool if you’re a real geek.
they lied about gulf war 1 (or whatever you want to call it) too. when i found out about that (an article in the CSM in sept of 2002, iirc) my eyes were opened enough to see the lies they were telling for this go around.
never visited, and not sure i’d want to. lived in the marshall islands for a couple of years though.. so heard about what had happened to some of the people there as a result of our “testing”.
I’ve read something similar. These two (Cheney & Rumfeld) have conspired for years. It’s no mistake they were part of the PNAC during the 1990’s. Iraq is their dream come true for crying out loud!
Gawd I despise them all. I’ve never hated a White House as much as I do these guys and that goes for the Reagan Crazy and George H.W.’s, both of which were pretty darn awful on all fronts.
Okay, going to bed. Thanks so much everyone for your great information. I learned a lot as I usually do when I’m here. ;-)
Nite nite.
Little Boy (Hiroshima) had a yield of 13-16 KT. Gun type – enriched uranium
Fat Man (Nagasaki) had a yield of 21 KT. Implosion type – plutonium
thanks. so i wasn’t far off. the only one i remembered for sure was Castle Bravo.
ok, backup is done. i’ll edit the audio file (hjc hearing), post it and leave a link hear later.
Exactly..he actually “acts” on it…that may well be the ultimate “undoing” though…I hope, I hope, I hope.
Oh well, one can hope can’t one…?
They love their secrets
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/N…../index.htm
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/N…../index.htm
found a pearl at Kos
Cindy Lou
Hensley was found not guilty after being defended by William Rehnquist, the future chief justice of the Supreme Court…
William Rehnquist’s rise to power within the GOP isn’t well known, and his ties to Hensley aren’t even mentioned in Wikipedia. He got his start in brass-knuckle Rovian politics by suppressing black and hispanic votes in Phoenix and rose to be corrupt Attorney General John Mitchell’s lawyer during Watergate. Nixon put him on the Supreme Court as the first real rightwinger, later to be joined by Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, and replaced by John Roberts. Rehnquist presided over the impeachment trial of President Clinton and appointed George Bush president in 2000 after Bush lost both the popular vote both nationally and in Florida.
bwahahahahahahahahaha
All of the 403 stuff was because there are new changes to the site…*g*
That’s quite a memory. Hell, I worked in the field my last 4 years in the Navy and I had to grab Richard Rhodes’ “The Making of the Atomic Bomb” to make sure I got the numbers right. I have a 1974 Defense Dept Technical Report entitled “Fallout Simulation: Nuclear Cratering Device Simulation.” I’ll have to go through it and look at some maps of Irak just to satisfy my curiosity, now that you’ve got my little gray cells workin’.
Whoa!!!
Save this…into the Defeat McCain file…
Holy Moly!!!
Another really good reason to see where Cindy
Hensley’sMcCain’s money has gone…This could be gold.
Maybe you should EPU this somewhere. This is quite something.
her dad went to prison in 1948…Mob
surely our liberal media will be on it any day now
Maybe Cindy is “bankrolling” another Supreme Justice or something…I want to see her tax returns…Maybe that is why John came out with his SCOTUS comments…the McCains owe somebody…even though Renquist is dead, maybe they owe someone who might have worked with Renquist…
Oh…Yeah….
Something stinks bigtime….
yup,its not even permitted to be in Wiki
Here’s some more…
Cindy Lou Hensley McCain….married to the mob:
http://www.samsedershow.com/node/2470
i remember the most useless bits, and then can’t remember where my keys are.
but in this case it makes a bit of sense – i lived on kwajalein for a couple of years as a kid, so when i read about stuff that happened out there, it’s with a bit more interest. the marshallese have gotten royally screwed by us – basically an ongoing military occupation without a resistance.
And go where?
Being able to find keys is over-rated. Or so I tell myself.
remember Dustin hoffman in little big man as the Indian scout? Custer asked him for his opinion about the Indians in the valley(rosebud creek) and the scout says “you go down there,but those aren’t women and children,they’re Sioux and Cheyene braves and they’re gonna kick your ass”.Custer says,” I’m going to use you as a reverse barometer”.”You want me to think that there are Indians down there but really there isn’t”.You know the rest.
When shit like that happens,especially when you consider that I’m one of the plaintifs in these class action law suits against the telecoms I immediatly think the worst.So I’m going to use them as a reverse barometer
lhp and loo hoo: here’s your webpage for the mp3 audio file of the
5/6/08 HJC Hearing on: From the Department of Justice to Guantanamo Bay: Administration Lawyers and Administration Interrogation Rules, Part I