As our representatives in congress are preparing to approve more funding for the occupation of Iraq, the people of Sadr City are being warned to leave their homes. The BBC reported this morning that:
The government has warned of an imminent push to clear the areas of members of the Mehdi Army, loyal to the anti-American cleric, Moqtada Sadr.
In the last seven weeks around 1,000 people have died, and more than 2,500 others have been injured, most of them civilians.
The fighting so far in Sadr City has been fierce – street to street, and house to house.
snip
The government has distributed leaflets in two key districts of Sadr City, warning people to leave.The speculation is that government forces are preparing for a big push into eastern Baghdad to end the current fighting once and for all.
Shortages of water and medical supplies have already made life inside Sadr City extremely difficult.
Given the devastation of attacks of the past few weeks, it is frightening to imagine what may be coming next. Just how "difficult" – a word that does not come close to describing current conditions – it already is can be seen even in some MSM reports. McClatchy’s reporter Shashank Bengalish writes of a visit this week to Sadr City:
The only apparent sign of the war was a hand-painted sign on a black sheet that hung from one concrete wall. My colleague translated it to me as a death notice for a local man, Ali Ateya, whose family we had come to visit. Later I would notice those stark signs – white Arabic characters on a black background – were all over the neighborhood.
Next we toured Sadr City’s general hospital, which a day earlier had been damaged by a U.S. military strike. It had been hard to gauge the extent of the damage in phone interviews, and the U.S. military said it had not struck the building directly. But it looked to us that day like the hospital was in trouble.
The first thing you saw was a series of craters outside the hospital and a big pool of water, which resulted when the U.S. missile struck the building’s main water supply. Here’s how we reported it:
"Sadr Hospital, one of two main hospitals serving the massive Shiite Muslim slum, is operating on a backup water supply that wasn’t expected to last longer than 48 hours. On Sunday afternoon, a main street outside the hospital was flooded as workmen tried to repair a series of underground pipes that ruptured when the missiles targeted what U.S. military officials described as a militia outpost a few yards from the hospital.
"’If there are no more attacks, we might be able to fix it. We don’t know,’ said a hospital security official who gave his name as Abu Sajjad. `Otherwise, in two days we will run out of water and the hospital can’t go on."’
Yesterday, another hospital – this time in the Al Shula district just west of Sadr City was attacked. Firepups may remember Fatima who recently chatted with us here at the Lake. Fatima lives in Al Shula where she and her husband run two orphanages full of terrified children in the middle of these attacks.
The soldiers also raided the Mohammed-Bakr Hakim hospital, arresting 35 workers, including orderlies and cleaners, and forced its closure, said hospital head Dr. Yassin al-Rikabi.
Reuters Television footage showed empty corridors and beds in the hospital, which workers was suspected of treating wounded Mehdi Army fighters.
"We don’t have any staff to receive patients," Rikabi told Reuters. Patients had been transferred to another hospital.
"At 9 a.m., around 40 soldiers and their officers stormed the hospital … They beat some people, including me," he added.
With the destruction of hospitals, makeshift clinics are the only resource residents have for essential care. This photo shows one such clinic – h/t to GorillasGuides.
And the air strikes continue:
U.S. forces used airstrikes and tank fire against suspected militia positions following a rocket attack late Monday in Sadr City, the military said. At least six people were killed.
An attack aircraft later fired two Hellfire missiles and killed three militants who were planting a roadside bomb in the Shiite neighborhood of New Baghdad on Tuesday, the military added.
At least four civilians were killed in the clashes, hospital officials said.
But back at home, our Congress prepares another Supplemental, giving BushCo not only all the funding he wanted for this year but adding more for the beginning of next. As the AP reported:
On Iraq, the bill contains $66 billion requested by Bush to fund the war into the next administration.
"Whoever becomes president has a few months to get his or her act together," Obey said.
The move also lets them avoid a second war vote during the presidential elections.
And while the Out of Iraq Caucus tries to put limits on the funding, asking for example that the money be “fenced off” to only pay for redeployment, the House and Senate both broadly support requiring the Iraqis to pay 50% of all reconstruction costs.
Other conditions have been added which are supposed to place contractors under the legal oversight of military justice – but this condition only applies to DoD contractors – yet the majority of contractors, including the Blackwater thugs who carried out the shootings last fall work for the State Department.
This sort of kabuki legislation while we commit daily war crimes against the people of Iraq is unconscionable – and while it appears that there is no way to stop this legislation, we can let our representative know that we are watching – and that we back the Out of Iraq caucus as they try to live up to the mandate of the ’06 election.
Update: Please consider a donation to the Red Crescent for their work in Iraq – as conditions grow ever worse, they are on the front lines, trying to help. Donations can be made here - select Iraq from the menu.
Related posts:
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder
- Right/Left Coalition Forming Against Blank Check Government?
- DPC to Continue Drive for Oversight, Accountability for Iraq and Afghanistan Contractors
- Afghanistan: 21,000 Plus 13,000 – or Plus 115,000?
- Electrocution Deaths: DOD IG Finds Multiple Failures by KBR, Military






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Hi Siun!
Hi Jayt
The reports we’re getting from our members in Sadr city are harrowing
I assume Bush is going after al Sadr to stop him from winning election in Iraq because if the Iraqi people chose a man Bush calls a terrorist then Bush looks silly.
But what is the situation on the ground are people still thinking about voting? Do the Iraqi’s trust Bush to give them a fair election?
Hello Siun and Mark.
I’m very concerned about what a “push” in Sadr City would look like.
Good evening markfromireland. It must be a horror – I was very frightened by the warning message given what is already going on.
bom dia pups
Siun, thanks for the post. Now I’ll just sit back and read the comments. Your posts and others (blogs included) continue to educate me as to the ‘real’ shameful story of what is going on over in Iraq
Hello, mark.
Hello Siun.
mark, I would appreciate hearing about whatever you wish to share.
The government has warned of an imminent push to clear the areas of members of the Mehdi Army, loyal to the anti-American cleric, Moqtada Sadr.
oh good christ – yeah – that’ll work.
hello to mfi.
Laying some Iraq groundwork for another, if limited, pre-emptive strike in Iran?
No peace with Al-Sadr = no peace. Or am I wrong?
I guess it’s better than not giving it.
I’ve added a link to Red Crescent in the post – and really hope folks will consider making a donation. They continue to work to save lives throughout Iraq.
Yeah, why should iraqis believe they can get a fair election when all the world knows Bush cheats and lies.
I was trying to locate the Reuters TV footage of the attack on the Al Shula hospital but had no luck – if anyone finds it, please send along a link. Meanwhile the report from Press TV which is an Iranian source seemed like the most informative and complete available.
thank you siun. i am so sick of the bs kabuki we are getting from our congress.
“Sadr Hospital, one of two main hospitals serving the massive Shiite Muslim slum, is operating on a backup water supply that wasn’t expected to last longer than 48 hours. On Sunday afternoon, a main street outside the hospital was flooded as workmen tried to repair a series of underground pipes that ruptured when the missiles targeted what U.S. military officials described as a militia outpost a few yards from the hospital.
“‘If there are no more attacks, we might be able to fix it. We don’t know,’ said a hospital security official who gave his name as Abu Sajjad. `Otherwise, in two days we will run out of water and the hospital can’t go on.”‘
Yesterday, another hospital – this time in the Al Shula district just west of Sadr City was attacked. Firepups may remember Fatima who recently chatted with us here at the Lake. Fatima lives in Al Shula where she and her husband run two orphanages full of terrified children in the middle of these attacks.
Why target hospitals unless you want civilian causalities? Is Bush trying to send a message to the civilians that he is targeting the hospitals because he plans to cleanse the area?
One hospital might be an accident but 2 hospitals in a short period of time NO!
I have heard that the principal focus of military action is a couple of neighborhoods across from the Green Zone. First is this true? Second what are the chances of conflict expanding to other areas of Sadr City and other Mahdi Army strongholds throughout the South? Third what are the odds that someone will take advantage of the current situation to assassinate Maliki?
am I wrong, or is the first time you’ve been here, after giving up on our simple asses, in quite some time?
Whatever, welcome – it is good to see you.
The city is being bombarded daily. Food is NOT getting in. Medicines are NOT gettting in. Mostly there is NO water. There isn’t even the limited (about 2 hours) electricity available The Americans are using snipers. There are panicky rumours that the GZG and Americans are plannig on using a gas similar to that used in Moscow during the storming of the cinema.
One of our correspondents is a nurse – we’ll be translating her desciption of last night sometime this weekend. She was shot at in the street as she was trying to get to ger hospital. That’s the ONLY maternity hospital for the entirety of Sadt city and its effectively closed down
It seems pretty clear that attacking hospitals is a way of spreading chaos and despair, and is a tactical decision. Not to mention a war crime.
No one has ever set up a position near a hospital or a mosque in order to draw fire have they?
Digg It Siun!
Yes you’re wrong. I was back in Denmark for some surgery and to get some legal work tidied up now that I have grandchildren. I go home next week. Thanks for the welcome
Great, so, the “We are the people” branch of the government is going to supply the Bush Administration with funding to decimate Sadr City.
What was the ‘06 mandate again?
Also is this something like Petraeus’ swansong, his last opportunity to do his Napoleon shtik?
I understand your point, and would mention the Geneva Conventions, were it not a farce to imagine they signify to the current administration.
I just have no words…
except thank you for bringing your stories here, since we do not hear any of this in the MSM.
thank you and your friends for your bravery.
They are isolating and trapping the enemy it sounds like they plan to wipe them all out. This will be a huge war crime.
No they do treat wounded and the disgusting fact is that that pack of barbarians in uniform that your country calls and army has a long and shameful record of bombing hospitals and attacking medical and rescue personnel.
You might have forgotten the attacks on Red Crescent offices, convoys, and personnel I bloody well haven’t.
bless ya Raven – you’re always out here offering up comments set up to make people love ya, huh?
carry on, my brother (if I may be so bold).
Raven … international law is quite clear that civilians and esp medical facilities must be protected.
This is what .. the fifth week of a full siege on Sadr City … during which we have bombed residences daily, bombed a hospital, killed over 1000 people who even MSM sources say are mainly civilian … there is no justification.
So WE expect everyone to abandon their homes and move into football stadiums.. where the shooting and torture is easy?
I’m asking a question, I’d don’t give a rats ass who likes it.
Du came on one Saturday with a flaming rant which said that you’d never be back here and had given up on us.
I printed that whole comment out, but don’t have it at hand. But once again – welcome, and can’t wait to hear what you have to say.
Eureka … yep. And worse, since the message is clearly a warning that even worse is about to happen to their neighborhoods.
You know … each time I hear of these warnings, I wonder … since any “fighters” would also hear them, one assumes they get out of the way. So what is the point except to terrorize civilians and “justify” further devastation.
Who will stop us?
I don’t say this to be clever or snarky. Honestly, our congress is failing us in holding bush & military in check. Who is the strongest international voice against what our country is doing?
sorry for the ignorance.
C’mon ES – they’ll say it’s just like the folks went through in Katrina in NO and Houston. After all Bar Bush said they had it pretty good there and she’d know right? /s
Of course, I also seem to recall some mention of stadiums and Chile under Pinochet.
it seems like we’re following the faluja plan.
My question is why are our troops in that position to begin with? These are not civil tactics being put forth by the Bush Admnistration.
On Iraq, the bill contains $66 billion requested by Bush to fund the war into the next administration.
The economy is going south we are bailing out banks and the Dems are letting Bush spend $66 billion that we need to rebuild our country. People in New Orleans are still living in trailers with Formaldehyde!
We should help our own we can help Iraq by leaving.
Dakine! that was my first thought as well … Chile and the stadiums. How many came out alive?
I’m so glad our team still has two presidential candidates who, every day, bring this news to the American people. It’s so uplifting to know that despite our government’s attempt to lie to us, Democrats tell the truth and expose the lies about the Irak occupation, every day. /s
What good is the fucking megaphone if you don’t use it?
They are obviously barbarians committing war crimes.
amen teddy.
Not only is it obvious but it is being viewed by the world.
I suppose the only reason Bush Cheney and Congress don’t just nuke Iraq is because mowing them down is so much more profitable.. and for Bushco, enjoyable.
I don’t know but I don’t think there were too awful many.
I think if Bush had camera footage of machine guns set up on a hospital Fox News would be showing it 24/7 to justify anything we do in Iraq. Heck I’m surprised Bush has not faked the footage.
Nice to see you admit it.
I think the situation is a lot more complicated than that. There are no sharp divisions between the Mahdi Army and the community. The militiamen come from these communities and live in them. Mosques are community centers. Many social services are provided for by the Mahdi Army. So what might seem like a clear distinction to you, to the people on the ground would be incomprehensible.
I’m sure Bush will look into all those things once he gets through the wedding of Princess Jenna…and after his bike ride. Gotta have priorities.
Thanks, Siun!
Why does John McCain hate Iraq?
100 more years of more massive mindless violence doesn’t worry him at all.
Bob in HI
At what point do we honestly start calling this the American Holocaust in Iraq?
The Supplemental legislation has a number of provisions that are being touted as good things but which are very problematic – even separate from the overall blank check aspect …
we are supposed to be happy with new conditions put on the contractors yet the State Dept contractors are not covered … that means Blackwater is not covered.
They also apparently include provisions saying that American military are not subject to Iraqi law – yet we claim Iraq is sovereign
The provision that calls for Iraq to pay for 50% of the reconstruction (and some versions also sa 50% of “security” and the “Sons of Iraq”) strikes me as illegal given our occupation. Occupiers are held to certain responsibilities under International law … and we are breaking them daily.
How about today?
Bob in HI
Then if the people on this blog think the troops are barbarians and war criminals then lets say so and drop the “I respect your service” bullshit.
Why would McCain want to stop something profitable for Republics?
I suppose the only reason Bush Cheney and Congress don’t just nuke Iraq is because mowing them down is so much more profitable.. and for Bushco, enjoyable.
If they’d just sign a damned oil bill which hands it all over to us, we’d be gone tomorrow. Not that we *want* the oil; just the control over it.
Wondering aloud, to no one in particular …
Why aren’t we quiet and just … listening?
Right now, mark is our best source of information.
Why are the Arab states and Iran not complaining to the UN about war crimes Abu Graid alone should qualify plus they got pictures!
OK
I thought I had made the distiction between the troop activity and the tactical response of the administration clear.
Raven – this is not about your service. This is about what is happening today in Iraq and we need to understand and take responsibility.
“the people on this blog” is not singular.
I am not talking about ME.
OT: Thanks for the live (timely) coverage on the campainge yesterday!
I found the following very helpful … and plan to use it this weekend but …
Tom Englehardt puts it into stark perspective:
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174927/endless_war
Buried in a number of news stories from Sadr City are reports in which attacks on “insurgents,” “criminals,” or “known criminal elements” (now Shiite, not Sunni) destroy whole buildings, even rows of buildings, even in one case recently damaging a hospital and destroying ambulances. Every day now, civilians die and children are pulled from the rubble. This is brutal indeed.
And it no longer makes any particular sense, even by the standards of the Bush administration; nor, in the post-surge atmosphere, is anybody trying to make much sense of it. That rising body count has, after all, taken away the last metric by which to measure “success” in Iraq. Even the small explanations (and, these days, those are just about the only ones left) seem increasingly bizarre. Take, for instance, the convoluted explanation of who exactly is responsible for the devastation in Sadr City. Here’s how military spokesman Lt. Col. Steve Stover put it recently:
“‘The sole burden of responsibility lies on the shoulders of the militants who care nothing for the Iraqi people…’ He said the militiamen purposely attack from buildings and alleyways in densely populated areas, hoping to protect themselves by hiding among civilians. ‘What does that say about the enemy?… He is heartless and evil.’”
Mind you, this comes from the representative of a military that now claims to grasp the true nature of counterinsurgency warfare (and so of a guerrilla war); and you’re talking about a militia largely from Sadr City, fighting “a war of survival” for its own families, its own people, against foreign soldiers who have hopped continents to attack them. The Sadrist militiamen are defending their homes and, of course, with Predator drones and American helicopters constantly over their neighborhoods, it’s quite obvious what would happen to them if they “came out and fought” like typical good-hearted types. They would simply be blown away. (Out of curiosity, what descriptive adjectives would Lt. Col. Stover use to capture the style of fighting of the Predator pilots who “fly” their drones from an air base outside of Las Vegas?)
holocaust is exactly the word that comes to my mind.
why say the words “never again”?
we know better than this.
markfromireland – what are you hearing about conditions in terms of basics – food, water, etc? is any getting in to Sadr City families?
Nouri Saddam Hussein Al Maliki will crush the criminals!
See when Al Maliki “kills his own people” by the hundreds, it’s a good thing!
Sick.
-G
ok, talking about rediculous war and the cost to this country, this is one of the most frightening things you are going to read, the message comes clear, bush is going to start another war, probably right before he declares martial law
Bolton on whether Bush might bomb Iran before he leaves office: ‘I think so, definitely.
note the “this is entirely responsible on our part” crap
the man is not only insane, he thinks we are retarded as well
Troops are people not everyone is an Angel I think we should hold our leaders responsible first for the actions of their army.
Blaming Abu Graid on solders who went to jail while Rummy claimed no knowledge even while he and Darth were approving torture techniques was wrong.
They both should get punished.
see mine @ 18 above
How’s that listening working out?
when talking heads ask “experts” why don’t we just go in and bomb the crap out of iran, like it’s fricking normal, we’re in serious trouble.
I was talking about cultural differences that I was hoping would elucidate why Iraqi militias like the Mahdi Army operate as they do and why attacking them directly creates so much destruction on the civilian population.
I see nothing in this although others might that denigrates the service of ordinary American soldiers in this. War crimes are being committed but it by this Administration and the commanders in Baghdad who have lied to and continue to lie to us and to the soldiers in the field.
Anyone who commits a crime should be held responsible for it.
the two are not mutually exclusive. can’t i honor a person’s service while condemning specific actions? how about charles swift? or joe darby? true heros in my book.
but the facts are that barbaric war crimes are being committed. all i can say is that i think the larger responsibility rests with us – not the people we send to kill in our names.
Much is revealed Raven.
Even what is not said, informs …
Well, I don’t get the sense that “markfromireland” agrees.
bush is too busy faking footage of iranian terrists. he doesn’t finish anything he starts.
I’m pissed at our media for the blackout of these atrocities…
BTW Laura this post:
منظمة الصليب الأحمر تؤكد عزمها على توسيع عملها في العراق
And the one its a follow-up to is about the expansion of red cross/cresent activities in Irak. 400 full time paid staff (paid very little I would add) and more planned.
Raven – I value the contributions you’ve made to our discussions but right now you are just trying to provoke a battle with mfi. Instead, let’s see what we can learn – and do to stop these horrors.
Picking a fight does nothing of value.
While that is most certainly true, I feel deeply pained for an any American youth that has been trained to kill or be killed put into a civial population under the Current Administrations policy.
I would agree plus we have not forgotten how we dumped heaps of shit on VN vets for a policy they didn’t write.
I would like to cut off the head of the dragon, not the tail.
excuse me
400 full time! that is pretty astonishing given the danger they face.
We were talking on Sunday – thanks to Laura and others – about trying to organize a wider fundraiser for Red Crescent.
is there any plan that you know of in the blog world to hold our dem congressional leaders to account for their plans for their intentions to continue the atrocities?
Oh no you don’t the sniper who shoots a screaming child in his brother’s arms as his brother is running with him to the hospital is a war criminal. The pilot who fired the missile that meant that child had 60 percent burns is a war criminal.
The soldiers who beat the shit out of the doctors, nurses, and orderlies in al-Shula hosptital is a war criminal.
A soldier who obeys a criminal order is a criminal.
exactly.
I’m reading but I do find this disturbing.
Siun, since when is challenging an opinion provoking a battle? We’re all here to read, discuss, do something but we all aren’t necessarily going to agree and that is okay, or? If there is some rules by which you would like the thread to follow perhaps it is best to post that along with the thread to avoid this.
Then thats that but blaming all the troops who are under orders and face penalties if they disobey an order which in the Bush legal system is asking for jail time no matter the circumstances is asking and blaming all our troops for the criminal orders of Bush.
I’m sure most of our troops want to go home and that they are recieving Bush propaganda 24/7 to justify these orders, brainwashing might be a defense.
After all I supported the war when I was reading Judy Miller’s NY Times pieces every day and they gave her a Pulitzer, how was I suppose to know she was lying?
Raven and I have something of a record WB. The difference being that unlike him I know what I’m talking about from living and working there.
Wobbly .. debate and disagreement is fine as always.
Yeah that is constructive! maybe a daily coordinated multiblog push on these stories might wake up the MSM.
Very good question Selise. Here’s what I know so far:
The supplemental will be presented in 3 parts …
You don’t suppose this is all just BushCo’s idea of a gentrification plan? Upscale condos…inconvenient people’s lives in the way? Hey, McCain’s got the song….
the 3 parts:
1- funding with no strings
2- strings
3- domestic spending
This is the standard military rationalization, shifting responsibility for death and destruction from the occupier to the occupied.
My military mind tells me that if people start leaving Sadr City the military will move in and level as much as they can. Another Fallujah but different tactics. The US doesn’t want another PR disaster like Fallujah but wouldn’t let that stop them. Apparently this warning doesn’t specify men of fighting age being prohibited from leaving. That means there could be whole areas abandoned and thousands added to the in-country refugee figures. Is al-Sadr willing to give the GZG Sadr City, and Baghdad, while his forces control the area around it? In Nam the US controlled the roads during the day, Charlie controlled them at night. Maybe the US wants to re-write the counterinsurgency manual on-the-job.
A soldier who obeys a criminal order is a criminal.
I pity my son, whose enlistment should be finalized this week.
He’s young, and in no way equipped to make that sort of moral decision.
Nor, by the way, was I, at his age. Wars are fought from the top down, and to expect relative babies to make those types of decisions, when they should have been made way above their pay-grade, is asking a lot.
The “strings” include:
Amendment 2: Setting terms and conditions for Iraq operations:
Amendment 2 attaches conditions to funds provided by another amendment for U.S. troops in Iraq. Among the conditions are those which:
o Allow appropriated funds to be used to plan for and execute the redeployment of US forces from Iraq.
o Require that redeployment begin within 30 days of enactment with a goal of completion within 18 months.
o Prohibit the deployment to Iraq of any unit that is not “fully mission capable” consistent with existing DOD policy.
o Prohibit extending the deployment in Iraq of U.S. forces beyond deployment time periods established in DoD policy.
o Prohibits the deployment to Iraq of U.S. forces that have not spent sufficient time between deployments “dwell time” at home station.
o Prohibit the use of interrogation techniques not authorized in the Army Field Manual.
o Prohibit establishing permanent bases in Iraq.
o Prohibit any agreement with the Government of Iraq committing the United States to deploy its forces in defense of Iraq or concerning the number or mission of U.S. forces in Iraq that is not in the form of a treaty subject to Senate ratification or otherwise specifically authorized by Congress.
o Prohibit any agreement with the Government of Iraq that would subject U.S. military personnel to the jurisdiction of Iraqi criminal courts or punishment under Iraqi law.
o Require that assistance to Iraq be provided in the form of a dollar-for-dollar match with the Iraqis. This is the functional equivalent of a 50 percent loan for Iraq reconstruction funding and ensures that the Iraqis provide funding up front.
o Require that the President complete an agreement with Iraq so that United States Armed Forces operating in Iraq pay no more for fuel than the discounted price at which the Government of Iraq is providing fuel for domestic Iraqi consumption.
o Extend the statute of limitations on criminal and civil statutes in cases involving fraud during wartime including in Iraq and Afghanistan from 3 years to 5 years.
o Amend the federal criminal code to prohibit profiteering and fraud involving a contract or the provision of goods or services in connection with a mission of the U.S. Government overseas. (This provision is identical to H.R. 400 which passed the House last year 375-3.)
o Expand the jurisdiction of the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act — which only extends U.S. federal criminal jurisdiction to felony crimes committed overseas by contractors working for the Defense Department — to include contractors working for any US government agency.
This is not a final draft but proposed.
How would you view it from the civilain side?
I meant this in a general sense but just using this present exchange as an example. i don’t want to take away from the conversation just seems that this comes up a bit.
thanks for the information. I have passed GG website onto many people.
i don’t disagree – but i think the person who gives the order has a higher responsibility.
and for those of us sitting in comfort at home… imo, it is wrong to focus solely on what evil orders others are following and not what i have done and am doing to help perpetuate the war (paying taxes, etc). when i’ve dealt with my own culpability – then i might find it a little easier to point my fingers at my fellow citizens.
it’s different for you because you are working to help the victims. you have the right to condemn where i do not.
If you paid your income taxes don’t tell me about being culpable. . .
We are here, in reasonable comfort, all of us.
Have we done enough to stop the madness.
Our brothers in sisters in arms are ‘victims’ of a montrous insanity, but they are also the means by which true horror is being visited on ohter human beings, many of them innocent of any crime other than being alive.
The soldiers, whom we have allowed to be sent are killing and destroying in our name.
We and only we, collectively and in each our own souls, are responsible.
That is the truth.
what I am supposing is little more scary;
anyone ever think we might be at the beginning phase of “depopularization”?
the world and her assets are getting mighty slim, global warming forcing all of us to think twice about not only the luxeries but the necessities
de-popularization
scary but something to think about
Can anyone answer my sincere question at 35?
Who is the strongest nation/international entity to push back on US iraq policy?
Hey, watch that. I’m kinda fond of my brain pan.
Thank you,Siun. And markfromireland.
I’ll make another contribution to Red Crescent tonight.
I tried doing a local fundraiser for Red Crescent in our small community. [ I’ve done community fundraising for 19 years. In a small community.]
Unfortunately I coupled it with a No More War Now statement. No non-profit group could offer their services because a statement against war is a political statement.
No florist could donate discards for us to make floral decorations because a statement against war is a political statement.
No church could offer me their space for a silent auction of “personal treasures “donated to buy medicine.Because a statement against war was a political statement.
Who can afford to lose their non-profit status in America?
I couldn’t collect money without a non-profit behind me. It’s called racketeering. But, we still managed to raise $300 and educate the average activist about the need to buy medicine for Irak.
But we could all, as private citizens, remember that the Red Crescent needs us to stand up and take responsibility.
I think this too misunderstands the cultural perspective of American soldiers. They are not gleefully murdering children. They have been tasked with operating in an urban environment in the midst of a civilian population. Rules of war allow striking military targets in civilian areas if this is the only way they can be hit. American soldiers are operating under a set of assumptions that I think are wrong. The fault for that lies with as I said above this Administration and our commanders in Iraq. It does not lie particularly with them because by the definitions they have been given they are acting correctly, if futilely.
I don’t agree. Raven is very articulate in contrast to some of the opposing voices I’ve heard.
Continuing my answer re Supplemental – the Out of Iraq campaign is working on alternatives including a request that the Lee Amendment which says all funds must be used solely for redeployment is raised.
It is unclear is they will get this chance. Members of the caucus are also pushing for funds for refugees and more.
No one has seen the final text of the legislation which moves tomorrow or possible Friday
Olbermann, on topic: “And the point of the war in Irak is to make sure there IS a war in Irak.”
Jayt I am not unaware of this – I am a professional soldier as is my son. Wars especially this type of war are savage affairs. But the simple fact is that both the tactics and the strategy in Irak are outright barbarous.
Toute comprendre n’est pas tout pardonner.
wtf is domestic funding doing AGAIN in a war budget? is this just another example of our congressional leadership bribing members of congress to go along with their war/election plans?
Don’t pick fights, we have the one and only truth with us.
My consicience has been clear these past three years by that metric.
-G
Iran and China
wow, that is one of the best most informatively constructed sentence I have ever heard
in my entire life
no kidding
agreed
Well said.
has anyone noticed or ever brought up that Iraq rymes with mccain?
what’s that?
it doesn’t?
well it should
What part of “deliberately targetting civilians” is wrong do you fail to understand Hugh?
Final bit on the Supplemental – I think one thing we can do is call the Out of Iraq caucus and tell them we support their efforts to insert better options in the legislation. They deserve our support.
I would disagree in that my mind has never been at ease and my heart continues to grieve for the Iraqi people, relief workers, all people that are involved.
And the difference between savage and barbarous?
I think you said perfect what a few of us have been trying to say. Still what is going on in Iraq is horrible and we need to stop it. Fighting over all the troops being war criminals while yes some are is not going to help us stop this war.
What can we do to stop this war is the more productive question.
i can’t read any futher.
fuck congress.
and i don’t want another person to tell me i have to vote for a dem until this fucking war is over.
I guess you are not kidding.
Iran – we all know how that’s going
China – they are supposed to be our friend and they are not.
Who could “sanction” us and make Bush sit up and pay notice? Besides China? just asking and not trying to be a PITA.
Iran? Russia kind?
painfully lucid
savage is a talk show host?
I think we all hide from our own culpability … and we would like to believe in the goodness of our troops and all. But being responsible world citizens means we need to face what is going on. International law does not say “it’s not a war crime if you’re really a nice guy otherwise” … it says we have certain specific obligations – personally, not just those in command.
i haven’t, so won’t ;)
Madness, just madness.
I’m not sure what you mean by “sanction” you.
yes, iirc there were American snipers on roofs in fallujah shooting at ambulances.
That is a post why can’t people donate because its a political statement but the anti abortion sermons of several churches with tax exempt status are ok?
w3rd
Well, Raven, you’ve got a point there.
I think I might be a war criminal too. In all seriousness. I thought long and hard about refusing to pay war taxes. About the ramifications on our family. I chose the path of my best interests.
I suck. All talky no walky.
Aloha, Siun! Sorry I’m late to the party!
I guess I’m looking for international shaming from traditional allies. Maybe Germany comes closest.
I just cannot believe I am witnessing this murder by US military (I was kinda young during VN). I guess I’m in some kind of stupor.
And why is the primary issue of our time being legislated secretly from the American people and our legislators until the last minute?
Most open and transparent Congress in history, my aunt Fanny.
So, anybody have any estimated date for the Bagdad disney-style theme park?
I vote we chip in buy park tickets for large portions of this Regime. Bush, Cheney, Ashcrost, even Yoo.
They deserve a vacation! And if a foreign agency has some questions to ask them during their stay…. ….all the better.
understood but i’m not about to spit in the face of a soldier and call them a murderer because of that very reason. We have all allowed this, so we are all murderers and since I live in my lil glass house, I can’t throw a stone. What I can do instead is to educate myself and others (thanks Mark, Du, Siun, Laura) and help where I can (politically, monitarily, etc.)
well, the US will often embargo countries or not trade with them when they tick us off…that kind of thing.
Dosido … I’ve often wondered and wished that some other nation would bring war crimes charges or do something to sanction us. So far, nothing though the prime minister of Malaysia did speak about our war crimes recently.
No one really.
The UK won’t do it.
Canada’s got a Bush lite stooge.
France…..pshaw.
Germany….nein.
Berlusconi’s back in Italy…
The US doesn’t care about the opinions of Africa or South America.
-G
“HE” is heartless and evil? These are people who were already IN those densely populated areas. They are no different from the militias that are now being supplied with weapons in Fallujah and Najaf by Petraeus.
The fact is WE moved into an area and fired upon these “militants”- our goal was to eradicate them. Does Stover really expect them to stroll out into the middle of the street and ask to be destroyed by Warthog weapons platforms and tanks? True they are firing from civilian areas…the military knew that they would be provoking this by going into Sadr City…and they are also responding to that fire and killing hundreds of civilians.
BTW I wonder if Stover can honestly pretend that the US has not established firing points in homes and hospitals or in areas where there are civilians present. Betcha 100-1 that we’ve got hundreds of armed positions in and around markets, schools, hospitals, government offices, and other civilian sites.
Jayt I am not unaware of this – I am a professional soldier as is my son.
Thank you for recognizing my point.
My son, however, is most certainly *not* a professional soldier. Nor, unfortunately, does he have any sense of the way in which the *world* should work – he’s never been outside the central U.S. Thus, he must depend upon those “wiser” than him, until he finds his own way. I hope that he does eventually find that way, but in the meantime, I would find it hard to blame him for following an order, even if that order be technically illegal.
“Technically illegal” – how the hell is that kid supposed to know? A 35 year-old officer I might hold to answer – but my son? – he’s gonna do what he’s told.
Just like promises of full work weeks.
You mean those “barbarians we call an army”?
Wobbly … I would have to spit in my own face. It is a shared culpability.
They are working on it.. See Siuns post on last Sunday evening.
Siun, did ya see that Maliki shut down a hospital in Sadr City and arrested 42 policemen…
CT – that’s part of what the post is about. It’s pretty horrific.
well.. McShame did say today that he was dedicating his future presidency to waging war against the abstract concept called “evil”… clearly one needs blank checks to fight “evil” :P
The reminds me of CHS’s comment of patience. Paraphrased as: Justice grinds the grain slowly yet ever so finely.
In al-Shula
It is astonishing … this began with Susan Collins, Levin I think and one other plus Rahm’s “Iraqis need more skin in the game” and somehow we’re supposed to be happy with this move. We need to let them know that we are not.
yup
I did not realize that you could read minds and establish intent. I understand your anger and frustration but I think “They are all criminals and we should move on to the next topic” oversimplifies the cultural perspective of American troops just as the terminology which categorizes militia fighters as “criminals” oversimplifies the Iraqi perspective. I do not see how refusing to understand both sides in the conflict is supposed to lead to some kind of a resolution.
No he doesn’t :-) And yes I know that’s a hard answer.
btw… this was just raised a few weeks ago and we all talked about it but it seemed like one of those flakey ideas that gets tossed around. Now we have folks like Murtha saying it’s great and Pelosi saying of course, it’s in and the Senate Armed Services committee unanimously supporting it.
siun-haven’t read comments yet, scanned them though………it’s hard to tell right from wrong when you are looking through a prism…..hard to focus.
all i see is manipulation to get an election a certain way and an oil deal signed while they still have people in office who will sign it…..come this fall that wasn’t going to happen…..wipe out sadr and it will.
anyway…….
i sent off letters before i left town last week, they were only reporting the dead from sadr city for may…29…i reminded them of the 960 dead and 2500 wounded from april, i think your number up top is low…..that was the april number wounded.
while i was gone, i heard updated numbers, don’t think it was completely from me, but was glad that i can now focus on something else, like the farm bill and fisa being attached to the supplemental.
and has anything else been mentioned about the ?CLUSTER BOMBS? being dropped???????? no, i haven’t heard anything……i made calls to reps and sens about it. they hadn’t heard it and one office was PISSED. i can’t believe this was clamped down so hard that i haven’t heard a whisper……..freakin’ cluster bombs on a city…yep, that’s nailin’ them specifically…….i mentioned how the dead and wounded number would rise when people started clearin’ up the mess from the bombing………cuz of the cluster bombs….
and now they need to leave their homes to let the ’rats’ just be left in the city, and if you stay you are choosing to die………horrific……what about those that can’t leave?
i am sickened again and again, ever since ali was murdered.
malilki being voted out of office did this, cheney did this, al-what’s his face hariri? that leads the badr brigades from anwar did this, and i have kept a log of it…….the end of march this started, strategy didn’t work, so use force, strategy didn’t work, do use force….meanwhile, sadr keeps making lines in the sand, legitimate, and they drop fucking cluster bombs……..
i keep thinking of spiders in a can……and i think of mohammed. i hope he is strong enough to last and for me to meet him someday. even if he hates me as being an american.
i hope they all outlast us, and rebuild something great. sounds cheesy, but i mean it.
===
sorry raven, i know you don’t like being spoken for, but gotta say it.
and raven doesn’t pick fights, he is a fight, tactics, ideas……..each one has a place in an operation.
somebody’s gotta be the ’cold hearted’ view, analytical…….but behind that kinda logic is the most deeply compassionate from experiecnce. the kind of compassion that comes from seeing all sides, you only get that kind being cut both ways.
we’re gonna need all of it to end it.
Who inhabited Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki-I suggest it was civilians. Lest you think targeting ciovilians is a uniquely American experience we can talk about a few London Department stores in the Seventies and Eighties when the Irish had a problem, they weren’t on a military base, were they? We can talk about Nanking in the thirties. Wars are ugly, people in was are brutal-on everyside.
Pogue Colonel: Son, all I’ve ever asked of my
marinesbloggers is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God.Do we have anyone opposing the war funding? We are 70% against the war except in Congress.
Hugh – this is very simple. Deliberately targetting civilians is a crime. Engaging in acts of collective punishment is a crime. Deliberately destroying the means of survival such as water treatment is a crime.
There’s a reason why Americans are rapidly becoming pariahs and it is the abject refusal to admit that. You can cavil as much as you like. What your troops do in Irak on a daily basis is a crime.
On this whole barbarian, etc line … I think one sign of how far we have come from being civilized is our acceptance of brutality as just how it is in war … we have an immense military machine yet we have lost any sense that international law and personal responsibility apply. I have to believe – though I may be very wrong – that the military used to uphold international standards. Look to people like Sen Dodds father and his work at Nuremburg …
True, Badger reported it, I used the ‘Scotsmen’ article, tho… Here’s his post…
Nice to see you still have a chip on each shoulder they give you such a fair and balanced perspective.
I suppose the Irakis are lucky we’re not making them pay 100% of the reconstruction and war costs.
Could OPEC initiate unilateral sanction against the US?
my 165 al-HAKIM
I gather that some members of the Out of Iraq caucus are fighting hard … they are not getting the support they deserve. So hopefully we can give it to them.
wow, watching, that’ll rein in their behavior all right.
how about, refusing to vote for candidates who are prolonging the atrocity in the Middle East, even if they have been anointed by the sign of the (D) after their name?
it is astonishing that people who go to the trouble to be aware of and apalled by the ongoing imperial war crime in Iraq can support a political faction, the Democratic Party, that has done so much to continue the senseless bloodshed and squandering of resources.
why not?
well there is that …
I suspect that’s in the next supplemental
but surely cultural perspectives are not neutral.
if a culture teaches it’s children that it is right for them to kill civilians when ordered to do so, is it wrong to judge the culture?
None that I know of.
well.. wasn’t that the original plan? Didn’t Perl, Cheney et al go into this arguing that the war would pay for itself.. even generate a profit, once we finished pillaging their oil resources?
http://www.pubrecord.org/index…..8;Itemid=8
US Document Confirms Iraq Dungeon
A classified memo written by the top U.S. military officer in western Iraq reveals that a prison in downtown Fallujah is so overcrowded and dirty that it does not even meet basic “minimal levels of hygiene for human beings.”
“The conditions in these jails are so bad that I think we need to do the right thing in terms of caring for the prisoners even with our own dollars, or release them,” says the memo, written in late February by Maj. Gen. John Kelly, commander of U.S forces in western Iraq, and provided to The Public Record.
that looks like exactly what the government of myanmar is with their resistant population. they are refusing to let in aid when thousands are at risk of dying.
Spokovat – what would you do to stop the war crimes? besides not voting for those who perpetuate it?
Ah OK Dosido – I’m not sure that any sanctioning of the type you mean will take place. I think what will happen is more likely to be:
1) The Chinese will refuse to keep funding.
2) As the dollar sinks it will lose its reserve currency status.
3) Firms trading internationally will refuse to accept payment in dollars.
Thanks Colonel, I am really sorry I dared to question anything you said.
How can we best stop more war funding? Hey I write comments but outside of a sack of money I don’t know how to influence Congress. But I do know that Congress needs money to save the Banks because the financial crises is not over.
Now as I see it the GOP can keep the war going, lose in November and risk not having enough cash to save the banks in which case they are out of a job.
Or they can still lose in November but not lose so much save the banks and then take high paying jobs lobbying for grateful banks.
Sometimes we must think of ways for our opponent to surrender.
Again you are assuming that somehow you just know what the intent is. I could as easily turn this back on you and say using a civilian population as shields is a crime, operating from or near schools, hospitals, and mosques to avoid enemy fire is a crime. But does either your statements or these lead to any greater understanding of the situation? I don’t think so.
Yes its called an oil embargo they do not need to go to the UN for that.
Raven – please stop. I am not sure what sort of issues you have around this but it sure seems more like a private issue than one to air here.
So this dude is going to rail about the “barbarian” American army even though war is inherently savage and savage and barbarous is the same thing?
1-800-405-8293
capitol switchboard
call, until they know your voice. your name. and your address by heart.
and my local rep’s rep said to tell you all that sometimes you’ll get more out of your district office, cuz the people in dc are interns but local reps are more informed in it for the long haul informed people………..i call both. local district to get and give info, dc to get response in writing from rep’s and sen’s and vote tally.
I do have a difficult question…but one that needs o be asked. IF we totally terminate funding for the war , with the exception of money needed for withdrawal….would that not effectively cut off ALL the Supplemental Funding for Iraqi Reconstruction.
So when we get all upset about requiring the Supplement to restrict funding to matching an Iraqi share from their oil profits…we have to remember that cutting of all funding would eliminate all Reconstruction funding.
Raven, do you ever read any of the blogs that don’t carry the American spin, written by Vets…? Here’s one…
Deliberately targeting civilians is a crime.
I ask in all sincerity, as in Vietnam, apart from children, how is an American soldier supposed to distinguish between friend and foe?
I agree with everything else in your #169.
It’s a public issue and if it makes you feel better I’ll sign off.
Thank you Dmac … thank you for the phone number. I hope everyone will join in and call … over and over.
raven, sometimes you’ve told us a bit about how you felt to lose friends during the vietnam war. how did you feel about the people who caused their deaths? can you remember your rage at the senseless loss? the people who meant so much to you? i’m not trying to be cruel – but just for a moment feel that rage and loss again.
and then remember that mfi is living it. only it’s his home that is being destroyed by an invading army. it’s his friends who are dying – some he’s know for decades.
i’m amazed that he can talk with us at all. i don’t think i could.
So, reconstruction is an act of perpetuating war?
Look in the mirror.
Scary as it is, apart from the few millions connected to the ’sphere, it seems impossible to argue that America now differs from Nazi Germany and their assault on Poland and other countries in….
No respect whatsover.
This vile creature holds sway over the People’s House while the insane criminals of our Fascist dictatorship rain death on innocent people every day. I guess they’re being brown makes it okay.
No one on ‘our’ side of the Presidential Kabuki has had the stones to address what’s happening in Iraq on a moral level. Does anyone here think MLK would have been silent.
Barry?
Hillary?
((((((((((((((((((crickets)))))))))))))))))))))))))
The truth is staring us in the face. The Neocons are in total control of the situation and nothing short of one of Jefferson’s revolutions will break their grip.
It seems certain now that those who love freedom will have to water that tree.
I call on all who would live free to look within and ask,
‘What am I prepared to do, to actually do?’, to take the power back from those who are now using it to destroy us.
For that is what they are doing and….
Time is running out.
I want a plan of action I want names of Presidential Candidates. I want stats showing Hilary and Obama can’t win if the activist base of the party stays home. I want calls to replace Harry and Nancy we should forget the presidential race and focus on this.
After all the Presidential Candidates Dem and GOP the MSM etc all hate being ignored they being human want what they can’t have. So lets focus on stopping further war spending and wait for them to try and get our attention.
Ask the artiilery and target selectors jayt – sounds like a snarky answer but isn’t. It’s inherent to the way in which America wages its wars of empire.
I’m not sure what this means. My perception is that both sides in the current conflict in Sadr City think they are acting correctly according to their own lights and values and that the other side is not. But I do not think you can understand the roots of this conflict if you accept only what one side has to say about it. I think it’s necessary to take a step back and try to understand the world views and motivations of both sides.
Aren’t most of the war profiteers, US Contractors, multinationals that are un-peged from the US Dollar?
Thats happening now China’s market just melted I don’t think the next T-bill auction will go well.
I have stopped calling my Congresswoman, as she enables this awful occupation and cuts its opponents off at the knees. But I support and will vote for her primary opponent Shirley Golub. Some of you may want to click to learn more.
Yes some but its more a question of moving their legal seat. As yet AFAIK they haven’t unpeggged.
Two roads lie before us….
Primary all supporters of the war…start with Pelosi.
As I alluded to in my other comment, ‘Water the tree of revolution.’ I will say no more about that path.
But it is real and it does exist.
Siun – let him go. Yeah, he has issues, but they are relevant. This war is starting to look like Viet Nam more by the day.
Our soldiers have no fucking idea what they’re doing. That’s what Raven has failed to say explicitly – but that has become the point, has it not?
I had a Vet chime in at M&C who said the rocket attack on Saturday on the main hospital, err, ’shack’ was done by MLRS rather than helicopter fired missiles… He said the devastation was indicative of an MLRS strike…
That is precisely why currnt administration policy is so atrocious.
What’s MLRS?
I’ll give you the answer Irakis give.
“Yes”
Because it’s an attempt to legitimise the occupation.
I am influenced by a broader critique of ruling institutions – it’s a different vantage point and a different lens.
also influential have been essays at:
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com
for example.
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp…..go-to.html
so for me, attempting to insert this perspective into discussions which assume that the Democratic Party is part of the solution is doing something, even if it is a pariah-type point of view.
its wars of empire….
I wish – I truly wish, that I could argue that point.
Yup as was the spread.
Multiple launched rocket system.
-G
hugh, we have the documentation that water treatment facilities were purposefully targeted (in gulf war 1 or whatever you want to call it). i don’t think the iraqis have forgotten that. it’s makes sense for them to think that’s probably our intent now too when they see it happening. it’s not like we have no information on command intent.
But we are doing a horrible job of reconstructing stuff I’m sure Mark can better explain our record at reconstruction. I say we get out wait for a stable government and give money for a UN supervised reconstruction because I’m sure the Iraqi’s hate us.
We don’t want to send any of us there for awhile.
“stateless actors”
So do I.
Multiple Launch Rocket System, part of our Artillery branch…
Yes exactly and if you don’t start to rein in the PMCs such as Blackwater “non-state actors” which is a terrifying prospect.
roots of the conflict?
this isn’t palestine (and that one is bad enough).
we invaded a country. for no good reason.
i don’t see how the roots of the conflict have anything to do with the people of sadr city.
It is when you wrap it up in the “War Supplemental” package request. In addition HOW food, medical, security, housing, and other “relief aid” and projects are distributed are very much used as part of the WAR and occupation. All of this is filtered through the al-Maliki government while areas like Sadr City are denied assistance. To get help people must become refugees, which places them in supervised camps, which allows their homes to be razed in a full-scale Fallujah-like battle.
Bush has got us by the short-hairs because he knows what “bleeding hearts” will NOT do. Maybe we have to rip-off the band-aid and start over again?
I thought they were paid in dollars or are our Iraqi subcontractors refusing to be paid in Dollars? That would be hilarious except I have dollars.
rgr that
I’m trying very hard to limit my comments to strategy and tactics issues. What occurred in Fallujah and is occurring in Sadr City, and in Palestine, is, on a far larger scale, similar to operations conducted 40 years ago. I don’t want to absent myself from the discussion but it’s extremely hard for me to voice an opinion on the behaviour of troops on either side in an insurgency.
Phoenix.
lol! yeah. maybe in ‘09
excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, i would like to interject–
4500 british troops pulled out–sept
NO INCIDENTS in area, i looked…..
al sadr meets with 300 tribal leaders–herding cats……trying to get some semblance of order in iraqi govt.
white guys don’t like that.
they know malaki, their last chance for the ’oil agreement’ pending in parliament is not going to pass if he is not reelected.
cheney flies to iraq visits malaki end of march
day later maliki attacks with ’iraqi troops’ with al-hakim-badr brigades–IRAN brigades……
ends up it’s usa troops leading the way……
they lose militarily, they lose politically…….
al sadr has 9 point plan, everyone likes it, but usa……
we attack again……harder, cuz we lost, so force will do the job.
city inundated.
we drop cluster bombs…….on A CITY FILLED WITH CIVILIANS………no time for them to ’line up civilians to guard military things’ raven……….i’ve been ’on this’……….didn’t happen…….
this is only a partial timeline……….
now citizens told to ’leave’ or they deserve to die………
c’mon………wake up to what this is. this is not like any other ’battle’ we have had there……this time it was the iraqi people working it out and we didn’t like what they worked out……so we make what we want happen by wiping them out.
they already said any ’militant’ couldn’t be involved in the election…….al sadr is the other major party, we were acknowledging him until we didn’t like him gathering his countrymen to choose their government……
oil law
maliki for.
al sadr and 300 tribal chiefs against.
what happened when the palistinians held elections and we didn’t like who won?
Yes,
Shirley is a good candidate tho’ not the only one as this shows. Our blog supports both at this time but the rest of the nations needs to understand that anyone who runs against the murderous bitch Madame Speaker will need national support ala Lamont.
There is tremendous anger here in SF, as you no doubt know, at Pelosi. Much depends on the ongoing car wreck of the run for POTUS. Should Barry become the nominee and then get ‘Dukakised’ resulting in the decimation of Madame Speaker and the Fascist House cabal’s plans for a SuperMajority she and the rest of the scum who call themselves the ‘leadership’ of the House could be swept away in the backlash from the Dem caucus.
KInda tough when you need McSame’s help but another four years of Miss Nancy and we could be looking at the Dem Party achieving permanent minority status.
Rather McSame than that. Got banned from OpenLeft by ‘BoneHead’ Bowers for advancing this theory. Funny how the arguments for it get stronger every day.
In closing, I leave all with these two thoughts:
I didn’t make these problems. Those who supported Democrats who are not Democrats did.
As Steve Guillard, a man the ’sphere really misses now in this era of bloviating oranges and Tallking Idiots would say:
‘Fight Back!’
do you think that should be our number 2 priority – to remove contractors (mercenaries, whatever you want to call them). or should we not go for half measures?
Mark, did you see this…?
Absolute fuckery…!
Dmac … you describe it very well indeed.
and thank you for your continuing care and fight for what is right.
Mark…I agree. I think all reconstruction assistance must be channelled via UN agencies and non-profits like the Red Crescent. This can only be done by ending the Supplementals and shifting reconstruction money away from the Pentagon and State Department.
I agree with that, SD, and many parallels exist with Nam and Palestine… No one’s hands are clean, but, why haven’t we learned the lessons of history…? 8-(
siun–fareed zakariah was on charlie rose, on friday i think, watching the tape now, has some interesting things about irak on it………..(keep trying to train myself to use the ’k’ instead of the ’q’)
They have a lot to do with how this is playing out.
exactly
Oops missing linky here:
Wave Buh-bye Madame Speaker!
Gotta get to work. Here’s my final contribution:
Corporate Hessians.
America is black hole.
-G
P.S. FBI looking into whether Bloch blocked Rice investigation. Reports also that he scuttled and innvestigation into the Sieglman case.
Getting rid of the contractors should be the number 1 priority thewy make the war possible. It’s a question of what we call “the tail” each soldier has a very long tail. Get rid of the tail and the soldiers HAVE to leave.
Yes I did and fuckery was the politest word I used :-)
I was wondering if someone was going to say it. You know there has to be something very similar operating on the ground in Iraq right now.
Given this – perhaps one thing we can push in calls, etc is a further demand on the contractor piece of this legislation. Demand the removal of all contractors as stage one.
thank you. makes sense. will try to have a talk with my congress critter (jim mcgovern, who has at least submitted legislation to end the war).
Thanks for being here tonight Mark, Siun and pups.
tw3k .. thank you and everyone for joining in.
yes. might be politicly an easier sell?
Yes, thank you mfi and siunshine!
Phoenix has never gone away. It just has different faces. Israel’s targeting of individuals, for example. I live with it every day, every night.
thanks suin, aggravates the hell outta me when the facts aren’t included in the picture……as you know, that’s what started my letter writing and phone callling……….(donna brazille on my radio on the way home, the least related person to a fact i ever have seen……good thing i didn’t have an iphone)
each and every incident has it’s own set of facts…….separate them and let them have their own statement. then make yours directly speaking to that.
truth tells all, i said the other day, gather the truth and find a ’vessel’ to put it in……..but you can’t lump it all together and get the truth……..i hate this phrase, but the ’cluster fuck’ that was started with anwar province and then sadr city really sent me off on a new quest to make sure that the facts are kept alive, they were so being lost in all reporting of current history……and in ali’s name i will keep them accurate of what happened when and where, and in this case in irak, these people were completely screwed for our political purposes……more than any other time in history i believe…….yes, that’s a big statement, but i really believe it to be true….
make sure to see the fareed/charlie rose interview. sounds like he’s spitting out a few details. numbers.
don’t know which night it was, thursday or friday, electric went out while i was out of town, and only backed the tape up halfway (want to tape over, so backed up two hours to watch and tape over later)……..so don’t know which night it was. worth seeing for the little things he dropped.
Selise two very old things from the old dite while the Iraki contingent were preparing to take over “guides”
Attacking the tail
and
‘In The Same Old Way’
Ask any military man – I “volunteer” ctuttle – logistics is everything in war everything
Siun and Mark, please take a gander at my latest post, Iraq–Snafu…
I am amazed nobody’s eyebrows are raised
do not put that past these desposts and robber barons, do not
in my mind they are considering a working class and elite and nobody else
Perris … I think that is what we are doing but I suspect the Iraqis will not go softly.
Heh, why do you think most convoy ops are conducted at nite, now…? Btw, highly effective means of strangling the beast…!
The only way.
I only fear a repeat of Saigon ‘75, when we start withdrawing…! 8-(
“Amateurs talk tactics-professionals talk logistics.”
-unknown
selise at 225 see my 231 and other posts i have made about this…….i only gave a partial timeline……..is very detailed, and very easily followed how we are wiping out what we don’t want to happen…..
and i don’t own and never have owned a tin foil hat. all facts. it’s a fact. cross-compared and validated.
that’s what’s happening. NOW.
we actually used CLUSTER BOMBS to make it happen.
and they are still winning, so we said ’leave or die’ if they stay they must be ’militants’……..i am so beyond angered i can’t stand it…..i’ve been writing about this step by step escalation since it started, since ali was murdered, and yet it continues to go beyond comprehension…….
what if it was my town? that’s what i keep thinking…….i would hope that someone would get on the fucking phone and point out that it is a LIE.
just a tangent off of posts by selise and others
presumably because high-paid mercenary forces killing at will in conquered lands, lavishly paid by US tax dollars, is morally atrocious?
but what if a (D) candidate and/or President opts to increase use of air strikes and mercenaries as a way of enacting their fake ‘withdrawal’ plans while continuing the occupation through their first terms, as both are on record as stating?
how can one oppose the first part and support the second part?
why not opt to support our common humanity instead of the electoral interests of a deeply complicit political faction?
http://www.democracynow.org/20…..r_rhetoric
Remember that the vast majority of our troops had been out of Vietnam for 2 1/2 years or so.
The “Saigon falling” images, although heartrending, were us evacuating embassy staff and folks who had collaborated with us who most likely were targets of the North Vietnamese.
The comparable group is the GZG, i.e., our witting stooges.
Most of ‘em will get out overland, but some will have to go out on helos-one posible scenario;
Dien Bien Phu, Iraq
thank you for the links. if i can get a few minutes with my congress critter (sometimes it takes a long while, other times it’s easier), i will explain your idea. i think it is the kind of thing that appeals to him. ‘course it won’t matter what one person does, but if there are more – who knows?
ctuttle – you’ve been volunteered!
dmac – i have no reason to doubt anything you wrote. our use of cluster bombs (in afghanistan and iraq) has been beyond reprehensible.
yeah, all hail “liberalism” right! :/
In what respect? When we leave, whether it’s tomorrow or McCain’s 100 years from now there will be a really ugly power struggle. Mark raised a major point about contractors. If the military starts using more mercenaries, who have respect for nothing other than a paycheck, the resistance will become stiffer. Phoenix teams were known to obliterate small hamlets. Blackwater will obliterate whole cities.
oh selise, i didn’t mean you didn’t believe me, i meant there’s a timeline…….
i travelled today, been outta town, am wired and tired, may be spitting things out too fast……..didn’t clear my head all the way before i logged onto the lake…..hmmmmm, how many can say that? lots…….i missed the lake……hits the part of my brain that feeds my conscience to do more and better.
will reread thread tomorrow when i’m fresh as lilacs tomorrow………
thanks mark and siun.
1-800-405 or 450-8293
call and call and call……and get the numbers for your district and call them for more info.
then go plant your garden.
That was the basic premise, the GZG and our ‘Vatican-sized Embassy’ most of our troops can get out through land routes to Kuwait, however, I believe at a price… Having conducted route recons, I’m aware we will lose troops enroute…!
It is incredible to me that it is perceived that there are ‘two sides’ to this.
How anyone can seek to justify or ‘explain’ what is going on as cultural desonance simply amazes me.
Were these things happening to you and yours (not so far-fetched as it might seem …) would you be parsing words?
When we leave things will be bad.
While we are there, things are bad.
In the first instance, it is the Iraki people who must choose …
In the second, the choice is ‘ours’ …
There is little food, little water …
But there is much evil, too much death, too much maiming, too much!!
Those of us here, of a certain age, already have the blood of one war on our hands and a stain upon our conscience …
How many more must die?
What are they dying ‘for’?
Too many questions, too little courage …
Too much hubris, too little shame …
Thank you, Siun and thank you, mark.
Thank you DWB … for saying it all.
Thank you for “getting” it.
siun, I am talking about de _poularizing the world not just Iraq
the world
yeah, they are just like the easily mocked Creationists in some ways – once something is identified as inimical to things they take on faith, it does not matter whether is is true or not, it will be screened out, not heard, and if linked to, well, certainly not checked out.
so, for example, highly respected Democracy Now can have Jeremy Scahill on, and he says stuff like this:
and
which is why it is possible to have the partisan left blogosphere or whatever you call it strenously keeping with up with ongoing atrocities and debacles in Iraq, and condemning the Republicans for them, yet vehemently supporting (D) candidates who would perpetuate the same policies.
The disappointment at the “betrayals” of the (D) Congress after 2006 can and will be repeated endlessly unless 3rd party or abstention is seen as viable and doesn’t just provoke Naderitis and a 2-minute hate.
Sorry, took a quick nap but thanks for the reply to my snark. That really sums up why (a.) the primaries has been such a complete disappointment in that it has been nothing more than a distraction from the important issues of state at hand and (b.) why the recent cycle of rebranding liberalism has left such a bad tate in my mouth.
Our state of affairs are not in order.
i’ve been getting the distinct impression that we’ve been “creating a narrative” instead of trying to figure out what is real and judging our own pols by the same standards we use to judge the Rs.
no they are not.