The New York Times inexplicably surrrendered most of an entire page of its Sunday Opinion section to allow the champions of America’s disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq to explain what we should do to achieve "mission accomplished."
Predictably, none of the 9 contributors says "wrong question." And none suggests we should just leave, or that our invasion was a strategic and immoral blunder or that our continued occupation is the core problem.
With some exceptions, it’s the same head-in-Iraq’s-sand crowd that has been wrong about everything, now telling us how to make them look right. For "balance," the Times allows Paul Eaton to call for regional negotiations, while Anthony Cordesman suggests an "orderly exit" that would leave "only" 5 combat brigades, so that the costs of staying indefinitely would be acceptable to the American public. And there’s an obligatory acknowledgment from Princeton’s Dean Anne-Marie Slaughter that if we can’t pacify Iraq enough, we might have a moral obligation to help the over 4.7 million refugees and displaced persons.
But the rest of the page is devoted to various flavors of neocons debating how best to sustain America’s imperialist strategy in the Middle East. Trailing the pack, Ken Pollack shows he’s on top of events with this observation:
There is a real danger that the deteriorating situation in the south will begin to undermine the progress in Baghdad and the north if left unchecked. It is just not clear that the north can continue to be stabilized if the south collapses.
It’s strange that serious policy expert Pollack doesn’t mention that pro-Iranian government forces seized control of Basra last month after the Mahdi Army backed down at Iran’s request. Meanwhile, in the "stabilized" north, we’ve had Sadr City’s 2.5 million people under siege since March resulting in hundreds of deaths and the highest US casualties in seven months. While Pollack was writing about our "gains" in Baghdad, our "precision" missiles crippled the ambulance fleet and damaged the area’s major hospital. In Diyala Province and elsewhere there have been several massive car bombings in recent weeks each killing dozens of Iraqis.
Siun’s post last night has more on conditions in the North. Yesterday, four more US soldiers were killed in Anbar.
Undeterred by facts, two staunch imperialists, Paul Bremer and Fred Kagan have a serious debate: Bremer says we should confront the ungrateful Iraqis and force Baghdad to "pay its way," but Kagan says we shouldn’t "drain Iraq’s cash" because that might give the world the wrong impression:
Iraq has a lot of money from oil, and we should do what we can to help and encourage the Iraqis to spend their money on rebuilding their country whenever possible.
But a dangerous note has crept into the discussion, a tinge of imperialism, in fact. The argument that Iraq should use its oil revenues to pay the United States sounds like the ultimate proof that we invaded Iraq for mercenary reasons.
If it insists that Iraq underwrite American military forces, Congress would do catastrophic damage to our image in the world, particularly the Muslim world. America does not go to war for profit — ever. We should not make it appear as if we do.
"Tinge" of imperialism? Apparently Kagan assumes the world couldn’t possibly think America was being imperialist when we invadad Iraq, (literally) decapitated its rulers, helped install a puppet government and sustain it against political opponents; and no one will mind that John McCain now plans a 100 year occupation to control their oil (oops, didn’t mean that). But if we asked the Iraqis to contribute to the costs of our mistake (as neocon Wolfowitz told Congress we would), it might harm our reputation in the Muslim world.
Are these people seriously insane?! It’s not possible to harm our international reputation any more than the neocon Bush/Cheney/McCain policies already have.
Danielle Pletka argues that we have to maintain a strong military presence in Iraq indefinitely, because otherwise those in the region might contend over who should hold sway, and we can’t allow those in the region to decide these things. No imperialist rationale there.
But the chutzpah award goes to Richard Perle, who says "it’s time to cut the cord" and offers this astonishing insight:
The most important thing we can do to help the Iraqis and ourselves is to recognize — and reverse — the seminal mistake that followed the quick destruction of Saddam Hussein’s murderous regime: the foolish (however well-meaning) and arrogant belief that we know better than the Iraqis how to rebuild their devastated society. . . . Stop! Iraqis know far better than we what makes sense for them.
Gee, thanks, Dick for that pearl. You’re only five years, 4071+ dead American soldiers, 30,000 wounded, $3 trillion in costs, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead/wounded, 4.5 million displaced/refugees and a destroyed Iraq too late.
Why anyone still gives these "serious experts" editorial space is the great mystery of our Times.
Update: More reviews from Hullabaloo’s Tristero, Ackerman, and Yglesias. (h/t Atrios)



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if they say something that’s a road map to the oposite of what needs to be done
Richard Perle, the world’s biggest asshole, produced the world biggest piece of shit idea: invading Iraq.
Wasn’t this his foolish and arrogant belief? Isn’t he the egomaniac who thinks he knows better than the Iraqis and everyone else what’s good for them?
this invasion has not been a disaster according to their actual desires, it’s been a disaster according to their claims
they wanted unrest in the middle east, they wanted to aquire the treasure of Iraq and the middle class of America
they got just what they wanted, this was never intended to be a military success it was intended to be a military mission that would span generations
oh, I forgot to add;
I believe the new york times is setting themselves up for a murcdoch take over
there is no other reason in my mind they hire sick maniacs from the pnac and give all the other morons who orchestrated this war credibility by placing them on their pages
Here’s my plan for righting some of the wrongs: finish the investigations into the run up to the war. What happened to those?
So next Sunday we can expect a page full of columns by people who know what they’re talking about?
How about a page containing Noam Chomsky, Michael Parenti, Naomi Klein and Robert Fisk and a couple of other notables. That should cause NYT to self-destruct. Not a bad idea.
now wait a minute, perle is saying we have to get out of Iraq
I am all of a sudden having second thoughts about that stategy
what is up with perle actually being correct about something?
me thinks something is amiss
WOW
you know what, I think that deserves a roots movement, if we can get the times to air equal time, which I believe they actually might, that would be a coup
let’s not forget Richard Perle’s honorary title – “The Prince of Darkness”
imo, the rev. wright deserves a few guest posts on that line-up… especially after all the grief he’s gotten.
At this point, would we actually see a difference once he took over? I don’t think so.
Well, he might add comics. Other than that, nope, not much change.
You would be most correct.
This fact is the most overlooked part of this whole debacle.
Neocons are happy to hide behind ‘incompetence’, because it hides their more sinister motives and allows them to continue to steal money beyond their wildest imaginings.
Anyone seen the missing 8.8 billion in Iraq?
Besides, no one was ever held for war crimes because of incompetence.
might fire the few good reporters.
Could we add Darcy Burner, so that she could describe the Responsible Plan?
G’morning, and thanks for giving us such a good laugh to start with Scarecrow; because your post is, well, a bummer for pointing out the bummer that is now the New York Times
So before I start reading the editorials over there, I’m off to stuff myself with a stomach full of goodies — ’cause if I’m going to toss my cookies, I may as well binge on them first.
UNHCR’s take on Iraqi refugees:
To use language that the neo-cons can understand, that’s one helluva huge time bomb waiting to explode.
Great post, Scarecrow!
Letters, we write letters. (Too bad there aren’t music note fonts)
Those guys are working overtime,you know 24/7, on the anthrax mailings and are closing in on the killers
ooooh, i like it!
Good morning, Scarecrow and all.
This is a great post.
And, you all are sharp as tacks this am.
I agree with everyone.
But, none of this makes me happy.
NYT couldn’t handle that much truth in a year, much less one day.
not sure the readers could either.
still, it might do us some good.
Meanwhile, back in Iraq:
How sad is it that the NY Times propagates neocon drivel while we have to go to the Iranian Foreign Minister for the truth?
From “Zulu”:
It might upset the lords at their breakfast.
Think about that.
4,700,000 people displaced.
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed.
All in the name of bringing freedum to these people.
And the MSM doesn’t understand why they don’t like us.
I’m beginning to suspect that my old high school football coach is running the NY Times. He always made us keep on tackling each other until we “got it right.”
Preview is my friend.
Should read “How sad is it that the NYTimes propagates…”
Not to make things worse, but have you seen the story about the death toll in Myanmar?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ar_cyclone
Talk about devastating.
Yesterday’s Times op-ed pages were otherwise okay. Showing that going away for a FU helps, Tom Friedman had his second decent column since returning. He says Americans are telling him that we do want to do “nation building,” and how about starting with America?
And Nicholas Kristof has an excellent but depressing column on the shame of Guantanamo.
MoDo does her usual; lots of snark but nothing to say.
Shouldn’t that be “freedumb?” *g*
I think MoDo is on the verge of being labeled “damaged goods.” Her crap has gotten soooo tiresome.
You are correct, sir!
Scarecrow, thanks for the YouTube; it’s a classic and really applies here. I recommend it to those who haven’t watched it yet.
you know, this is not even speculation, it is documented fact
the sicko maniacs pnac has been advocating middle east unrest for two adminsitrations
and the exact members of that sick fraternity are those that advocated the war and are opologists
in addition we know as a fact cheney creates false data whenever the spector of peace looms, he wants war
you must read this link
he is a sociopath and the members of the sick fraternity that calls themselves the pnac are sociopaths
so my statement is not speculation, it is documented fact
I should have given a h/t to Eli for finding and recommending the Monty Python video. I put out a call for pics last night, and that was his recommendation. However, egregious was a close runner up with this picture:
everyone must read the link I provide in that post if you have not yet
perris — pay absolutely NO attention whatsoever to Richard Perle.
His bullsh*t about North Korea exemplifies his ridiculous inability to think systemically. His nonsensical demand that the U.S. abruptly bail out on the Framework Agreement (which actually worked) set the course of U.S.-North Korean negotiations back an entire decade almost immediately. He has NO respect for diplomacy, only the use of force.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail — and that’s the unfortunately problem with the neo-conservative ideology. We’re all nails to them.
Lordy Rayne, a little warning please, I recoiled looking at the picture, a chiver did go down the bones of my spine. blerrgh
I see the Time’s Michael Gordon has a front page article explaining that the Iranians who have been training Iraqi militias are actually Hezbollah, all according to US military sources. Based on “interrogation reports” from Iraq. Wonder who did the interrogations, and under which WH executive order?
The crow’s caw……….. wisdom!
“Gee, thanks, Dick for that pearl. You’re only five years, 4071+ dead American soldiers, 30,000 wounded, $3 trillion in costs, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead/wounded, 4.5 million displaced/refugees and a destroyed Iraq too late.”
“Why anyone still gives these
“serious experts”(”propagandist?”) editorial space is the great mystery of our Times.”Zero: the number of “American officials” quoted by name in this report. Why does Gordon have a job and why do his articles appear on the front page?
On the anniversary of the invasion of Iraq, the Times ran a page of comments from the same crowd, drawing a group of nasty letters from readers across the country, which they printed on March 18.
Apparently the editors don’t respond well to criticism. Maybe we should write them to beg for more, in the hopes that reverse psychology will kick in.
This crew has lived in fantasy land for so long they now believe whatever they say need not have any basis in reality. “Interrogations? We doan need no steenking interrogations. We just make dis sheet up as we go along.”
Glenzilla just put up a post on that article. As usual, it’s very good reading.
they don’t believe what they say southern dragon, this is a fact, they knew the attack would create unrest and that is what they wanted
they catagorically do not believe what they say, they are sociopaths
read my 36 and follow the link, I am not speculating it is a fact
Yes, over 4000 killed by that tragedy.
Yes, Perle’s visage actually has that impact on people, yes? And there are some who think evil cannot walk manifest on earth…
do you have the link to that?
I want to comment
It’s terrible. And, with all of our money sunk in that Hellish War, and the rice shortage, it’s going to be really rough trying to help them.
I could just scream, and the sun’s barely up.
Here you go.
I hear war drums, and they aren’t in the distance.
you’re gonna love this (not in a good way)(up now on think progress)
the admirals are now telling us the president has screwed us, that if we have an emergency or attack he’s spent our assets and our belly us up, exposed
I wonder if there is anything at all that could get pelosi to set that table
I don’t think Perle is saying we should get out. He’s just saying we should stop dealing with the details of reconstruction.
I suspect he’s on a similar path to Dougie Feith, who was proclaiming to interviewers that the disaster since the invasion wasn’t his fault; he wanted to turn things over to the Iraqis quickly, not have an occupation. He just avoided mentioning the fact that by “the Iraqis” he meant Chalabi and his crew.
From Greenwald’s post on the Michael Gordon/ NYT article:
I won’t argue the point that they’re sociopaths.
They’re sociopaths with a purpose, however. Whatever unrest they could foment within the region was with the goal of making Israel the centerpiece of a region where every country surrounding Israel was governed by a US installed compliant group, much like the Shah of Iran. That accomplished, they see a secure Israel whose borders are the Jordan River and the Med. Palestine would cease to exist, its inhabitants displaced or killed by the IDF. All other Arab countries would be client states of the US and Israel, where US corporations would control the economy of the entire region.
Try:
♪ – ♪
♫ – ♫
shorter Scarecrow:
Michael Gordon = Steno Sue
That dog’ll hunt.
And I’m gonna have to come back to this. Tiger meds are done and I’m off to earn their daily food.
Scarecrow and perris: I think we can force NYT to print some opposing views to Sunday’s madness. It probably couldn’t be done in time for next week but it could be done. Let’s work on that. Attack it from both angles. Write NYT AND thinkers who would best represent a reality based assessment of the situation.
Sayonara.
Peace Love Light
Too cool.
Good morning, everyone…
That piece is interesting, but I have an issue with the writer stating that Hillary Clinton was a champion for peace…when we know, per DLC and per her comments of annihilating Iran that she’s as much a hawk as Cheney and Rumsfield.
Haven’t read the whole post: Did anyone suggestion war crimes, impeachment for lying to the American people, some restitution for destroying a country that had not attacked us? Let’s hear alittle debate here; does Cheney et have to disgorge obscene profits? Blackwater same question + murder charges? Who is in control of resolving this debacle? Thank you.
When the second carrier group moved into the Persian Gulf last week, there was a story on the radio with anonymous sources saying the plan was to demand that the Iranians stop supporting “insurgents” in Iraq, and attack them if they still didn’t.
Hmm, demand that they stop doing something we have no proof they’re doing, and which they can’t prove they’re not doing, with an attack to follow if they don’t — where have I seen that playbook before?…
while you might be right about their fantasy, even with a fantasy as elaborate as that they could not have possibly thought it would take less then an administration’s term and they could not have possibly thought the inhabitants would acquiesce unless they are not only sick maniacs but morons as well
so they are not only sociopaths they are morons
well there’s a news flash for everyone, the sociopaths in the pnac are morons
set that in stone tablets
i’ve posted this before, but it’s been awhile – gordon has been doing this for 20 years. it’s what the nyt pays him to do.
from an interview of Geneva Overholser on Media Matters with Bob McChesney (from August 26, 2007)
35 mins in, my rough transcript:
that piece was written before we attacked Iraq, it was also referring I believe to clinton’s administration not as hillary behaved with this administration
to make it easier for us to ever-so-kindly let them know how we feel,
here’s the link to the Contact Us page of the NY Times
yes
nancy pelosi stopped by to tell us she was ready to go, then asked the moderators to delete her post so the president wouldn’t be on to her and find more through their wiretapping to blackmail her
I would like you to know that’s thom harman, he is no hillary fan right now and that piece was written long before we attacked Iraq
that’s right, that was written long before we attacked Iraq
in other words the documentation is there that cheney is in fact a sociopath who wants war
it is amazing to me that article and story is publicly known and we allowed cheney to pull the same crap again in Iraq after he frigged up detante
and now he tried yet again in Iran
it seems american populace never learn
Thanks…is her opponent a powerhouse?
I really don’t understand all the bluster toward Iran. Surely no one thinks we have the conventional forces to win a prolonged conventional war in Iran/Iraq. The overused troops we have there can barely maintain the upper hand against our current opposition, muchless a million or so Iranian troops.
Nor do I see how anyone could think Iran would agree to apologize and cease hostilities after a few airstrikes and naval bombardments.
That only leaves nukes as a decisive weapon. So, it seems to me we are ultimately threatening to use nukes.
Regardless of what one thinks of Isreal, I don’t understand why we need to be involved in any nuclear threat against Isreal from Iran. Isreal has nuclear weapons and has proven numerous times that they will act preemptively when threatened. Accordingly, it seems to me that we might have some leverage with the Iranians in promising to do our best to restrain the Israilis.
her oponent is also being blackmailed
Thanks Elliot for posting the contact for the NYT. Good suggestion. We used to do a lot of SPOTLIGHTING, but I don’t know if folks still use that. Glenn’s post on Michael Gordon is another one for which the Times should hear from us.
let’s be clear here, there’s something you don’t know;
cheney is itching to pull the trigger on nuclear ordinance, he wants those depleted as well so haliburton can get the contracts to make new
the fact that we can’t engage conventional force is exactly what cheney wants to hear
Sneaked a peek on the way out.
They’ve never thought this could be done during one administration. This all started to come together during Nixon’s time in office. The Zionists have been trying to take over Palestine since the Balfour Declaration. The crew that was to become pnac never predicted how long it would take. They were, and are, willing to plod along until the goal is reached, using whatever options open themselves to them as the process unfolds. Control of the oil reserves has always been the centerpiece. And has proven to be the most difficult. Those pesky natives just don’t know what’s good for them.
Perhaps, but Hillary was definitely showing her colors way back in college days, i.e. President of the college republicans, and expressing sentiments of her belief that the elite are given their power (and money) by God.
I think there’s probably more to be unearthed of what *really* went on in the Clinton Administration.
And per #71– I don’t think the information is out there enough for the public to know.
And, I can add, it’s not enough to *know* what’s going on, but the means to stop it or correct it or otherwise deal with it. Just handing people a problem without a solution only serves to frustrate them into apathy.
We keep making the mistake of assuming Gordon is a NYT reporter. I’ve always called him “the Pentagon reporter embedded at the NYT.”
An Hillary is right in their with the Bushies beating the war drum against Iran, and oblivious to the fact that Iraq’s current government was Iran’s choice.
Please excuse my arrogance in making the correction.
not going to agree with their long term plan, they could not have assumed America would go along with it
look, how stupid could they be to actually post their intentions on the internet?
that’s retarded stupid
now let’s look at this;
not so
they deliberately did NOT protect these fields, they wanted to restrict the flow and cause famine of the resource so they could build their power and profit
this was not about aquiring or making oil available it was about controlling oil and making it scarce
yes. but the NYT can’t claim to be ignorant of what is going on when they’ve had him doing the same fucking thing for more than 20 years.
I am convinced most inteligent people change as they gather knowledge
for instance, my dad was raised a bigot and began raising me the same
we have both changed and I believe neither of us are bigots any longer
I was also originally a republican I might add and I have to be honest, the values republicans promote are actually the same values democrats want, it’s just the means these goals are obtained that really change everythig
We’ll find out in coming years that the Pentagon had a special program to train & hire out “journalists” to do propaganda just as they did for retired military muckity mucks. I’m surprised that no one has asked about the existence of such a program yet. Gordon is clearly one of them. Miller was already found out.
I’d like to add the president did indeed deliberately release the Iraqi military forces with their weaponry
they also deliberately left stockpiles of military ordinance unguarded, knowing full well those stock piles would be pillaged by the former military and the local insurgents
this is deliberate unrest, there is no other way to look at it
if you were to provide a playbook for bin laden, how to fail, how to fail against terrorism and how to fail in Iraq, bush took that playbook and implimented page by page
we are under siege by sociopaths that do not know good or evil, country or people
they know profit and that’s all they know
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs,
after testing on poor and third world peoples, it is usually affluent elite types with first dibs on the good drugs . . .must be some f’in cocktail
Pollack, Bremer, Kagan, and Perle . . . did the paper devote any column inches to the America First stylings of Lindbergh, Ford, or Kennedy anytime after 12/7/41 ??? .well no, simply no
it is increasing difficult to deny at least the possibility that in light of their ever decreasing fortunes, controlling shareholders have entered in to a gambit wherein they make money from the loss position
If that’s the case, then editorialists and Democratic politicians need to lay out the real issues. They never get past the point that a nuclear Iran can’t be tolerated or follow a cause and effect chain to analyze what happens if we strike a few sites in Iran to take down the Quds force, or whatever. Even Clinton and Obama argue that we can’t tolerate a nuclear Iran and we must protect Isreal, when it should be obvious that Isreal can protect itself in that regard.
I also remember reading about the same program for the media
have you noticed how few thongs are in movies now?
man I miss thongs
If you are serious, what are the grounds? Don’t think I have heard this.
Ya know, the Clinton statement about annihilating Iran was not helpful, but one can imagine a US administration choosing to extend US nuclear retaliation umbrella against nations that posed a threat in order to change the calculus of who needs to acquire nukes. It was the basis of NATO policy for decades, and it meant that those under the umbrella did not have to acquire nuclear weapons themselves; they could rely on the US umbrella. The concept of deterrence is something we’ve relied on since the 1950s, and it worked against nation states that we regarded as the worst — ie., the Soviets.
One of the arguments against a preemptive attack on Iran to prevent it from developing nukes is that we could live with them having nukes as long as the deterrence argument applied. Iran is a nation state that can make rational calculations, just like the Soviet Union, so the argument goes.
I think Clinton was trying to articulate that alternative to unilateral preemptive attacks, but in saying it the way she did, it can be interpreted as carelessly provocative. It would have been better for her to say the question was needlessly provocative and speculative, and it’s not helpful to give a direct answer. She could have then explained the concept, without appearing to threaten Iran with annihilation, which I don’t think was her intent. But I really don’t know what she meant.
Reference to Perris at 84–
I was raised in a repub household, too. I disagree that an intelligent person will *automatically* change with the gathering of knowledge.
I changed because I had my eyes opened, but I was receptive to that because I felt badly about the way things were.
In other words, I had a conscience and a desire to shed the previous life. It took a lot of soul searching and hard work and I’m still in what I term as my metamorphosis.
Yet, I have asked the question of why others, who appear to be intelligent persons, didn’t follow the same path of enlightenment.
The answer to that question lies with selfishness and greed. In my view, one that loves money can’t love humankind.
Wasn’t Hill’s comment also about Nuclear
might not be the pentagon – more black $ available via the intelligence services.
also – hard to think that the dems don’t know exactly what is going on. and yet, they say nothing.
it was snark revbev
but I cannot dismiss the fact that there is nothing worse a president can do then this president and the only reason I can come up that he is not impeached is blackmail
but my post was indeed snark
I agree; if the NYT simply identified him as I described, with the caveat at the top: the following report is what the Pentagon says is true, but we have no independent verification — it would be better.
yup, she brought it up too
Good point about black $.
Sent an email to ”public AT nytimes DOT com” re Gordon. Not the first time, either.
I am of the opinion that you can’t be inteligent in the first place unless you are willing to change your mind when facts tell your your beliefs are misguided
yet I know that isn’t entirely true as well, one of the most inteligent people I know has robber baron economic philosophe
batteries dead and I am melting, see all later
The cat’s out of the bag:
“Serious” expert = camera-hungry egomaniac.
These are people who, first and foremost, enjoy being in the limelight. People selected for their pleasant voices and photogenic looks and willingness to offer an opinion about anything at the drop of a dime.
Garbage in, garbage out.
One thing I noticed is that the most recent bluster against Iran began building up once it became clear they couldn’t keep saying “the Surge™ is working!” any more. Since they can never admit they’re wrong (even to themselves), some outside force had to be responsible.
The Gordon article’s chilling mention of “interrogation reports” probably tells us all we need to know about how they got “confirmation” their suspicions were right. The combination of people who can never admit they’re wrong with a program of torture, which gets you false confessions, not reliable information, is truly scary.
I am still proud of the fact that when I bumped into Bill Kristol on the snowy streets of NH in January I yelled at him: “You fucked up the facts on your FIRST NY Times column ever written.”
-G
Four out of five insurgents who’s nuts were placed in a vice implicate Iran.
Sounds like evidence to me.
-G
Congratulations….did he hear? Thanks. Im out of here. May the day get better. B
Yep. J. William Fulbright would be calling for hearings on the validity of the “interrogation reports.” Biden has been doing a few things, but it gets almost no coverage.
Hillary used the word “obliterate” on about half a dozen different occasions within in a one-week period. It sure sounded like saber rattling to me.
You probably made his day; he meant to do that.
yes, although i’m not convinced that’s what she meant. but even if she did – imo this is an absolutely fucking insane policy. one just as out of touch with the real world as the neocon vision. and probably just as dangerous.
where to start?
… the only reason to extend a nuclear umbrella to israel would be in the context of an agreement by them to dismantle their nuclear weapons program.
… the current threat of proliferation is not from our allies. why would any other country (or even our allies) trust us to live up to promises made?
… the biggest motivation, as far as i can tell, for an ME country like iran to acquire a nuclear deterrent is to prevent an invasion by the USA. bringing our nukes into the picture in the ME is an escalation.
i actually think that there are some dangers for proliferation in the ME right now (i know there is disagreement on this point). but i’d like us to have a foreign policy that didn’t continually make things worse.
That’s important if true. Is there a link that pulls all these instances together? I only saw the one response to a question.
Caw, caw, Scarecrow! Great post! But…
Christy has a nice new post up and ready about Playing the Fear Card For the Religious Right…Again!
John Cleese for Prez!
I thought it was just a carelessly provocative framing of the Cold War at first, but since she’s repeated it quite a few times now without giving it much context, I must sadly assume that she’s playing for fear. Hell, on Stephanopoulos she apparently even went on to talk about being concerned about nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists!
That’s just neocon crap, through and through. Apparently she’s going to continue campaigning until she’s shredded every scrap of her reputation.
Your observation seems to be right. The advocates ought to be asked in public:
If small scale Iranian assistance to insurgents, in training and weapons, is a major problem for U.S. forces in Iraq, how will we react to the Iranian Army, in full force, attacking across the border?
It all depends on what the meaning of the word obliterate is?
-G
We didn’t require or expect England or France to dismantle their own nukes, even though they were under US umbrella. And there are others in the ME who might believe they need nukes if others in the region do. Hence, how do you discourage that, short of war?
The umbrella/deterrence argument said other NATO countries don’t have to develop their own. Limiting the number in the nuclear “club” was helpful because it made non-proliferation efforts easier — less material/equipment to keep track of. No one argues that Iran getting nukes is good; the question is whether preemptive strikes, which themselves might involve use of nukes, are acceptable, and if not, then what’s the alternative policy in case Iran actually did acquire them? Of course, this debate assumes that Iran is actively attempting to do so, and we apparently don’t know for sure.
All I’m saying is that there is an interpretation for what Clinton said that is linked to US policy of the last 50 years — whether that’s what she meant or not . . . I dunno.
Biden did say an attack on Iran by this administration without coming to Congress was grounds for impeachment…..
Clinton’s comments concerning Iran is the link to the policies of the past 50+ years and is the reason the demorats would not move forward with impeachment. The current state of the economy would have been blamed on the demorats, because of any impeachment inquiry. Bush has already blamed congress for the high price of oil! Open up Alaska to drilling!! My way of no way!!!!
Everything is motivated by “energy needs” and the desire to control the form of stored potential energy for corporate profit!
I recall Gravel early on in the primaries speaking of controlling the legislative process and the vast majority Americans failure to realize ” The People” should be in control of the process, not corporations that work for the sole interest of the corporation!!!!
Kings, Dukes and Parliament in colonial corporate crime mecantiled the colonist all the time!!!!!!
damn. i just lost a long comment/reply to the ether. will try to recreate and post it here later because i think this is really important and i’m pretty sure i disagree with almost all your premises. but gotta run now… :(
This is a bit of news that could let me sleep better tonight — it being a New Moon, good time for some invading.
However, putting together the Assessment that the U.S. cannot handle fight in 3 nations at a time together with the hints, strong or otherwise, that the neocons would accede to our leaving Iraq to crumble on its own, I wonder if the stage is being set for first getting out of Iraq and THEN going into Iran.
Here are YouTubes of three distinct times. IIRC I had heard of two or three more.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI…..index.html
Clinton made the statement about Iran on ABC’s “Good Morning America”
on Tuesday (4/22)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..00031.html
Sen. Hillary Clinton today defended her statement that the United States would “obliterate” Iran if it ever launched a nuclear strike on Israel. “Why would I have any regrets?” she told George Stephanopoulos and group of Indiana voters on ABC’s This Week. “I am asked a question about what I would do if Iran attacked our ally, a country that many of us have a great deal of, you know, connection with and feeling for.” (5/4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ZXUA9WxFA
Hillary Clinton says she’ll nuke Iran on Olbermann.
Oh, but they did think the US would go along. These people have managed to maintain positions of influence in every administration since Nixon. The neo-conservative agenda is part of what has driven the R party for the last 30 years. “Rebuilding America’s Defenses” was seen as a super patriotic document and many of the signatories are people of some influence within the current administration, or were. Reading it as a stand alone, without any knowledge of the region would not raise any questions among the “uninitiated.” The ultimate goal is, and was, a Middle East controlled by puppet regimes. Israel would be the “permanent base” through which US Middle East policy would be maintained.
That’s exactly what I said in the section you quoted. Each administration since OPEC was formed has tried to influence OPEC’s control of oil resources within its cartel. It has proven to be a hard nut to crack.
Thanks for finding those links; they seem to confirm what I suspected: while Clinton has now referred to the “obliterate” remarks more than once since the original interview, it looks like each time was in response to “why did you say that?” I misunderstood you. What I thought you meant in your original comment was that Clinton had been making the same point before the issue became “newsworthy.” If she did, I hadn’t seen that.
Again, I’m not defending or condemning the statement; only trying to determine the intended meaning, by suggesting an interpretation, and it’s just a guess.
Hey guys, let’s face it, Hillary is in the middle of a hellish campaign, and she has her nose buried deeply in the ass of AIPAC. If she doesn’t tow the old AIPAC line, they’ll bury her.
New York Times Death Watch.
Someone was filling in for Idiot Ingraham this morning; giving high praise for Hill and threats; condemning Obama, close to calling his a pacifist. Just keep the bombs at the ready, make no sounds of getting along; the whole world is a threat.
OT: There is some way that the right wing women almost sound worse than the men. Can that be true: Shrill, bullying, argumentative. Maybe that is terrible sexist, I do not know. But it is as if they have something to prove. This women, Tammy, sounds rude. Molly Ivins used to talk about Repub. women as “perky”. Not particularly a compliment from her lips. This new tone is not perky. I have not come up with the word, close to harsh, cruel, know it all, Just have not found quite the new right word.
The NYT is a lost cause. The sooner they are abosrbed in the Murdoch propopaganda machine the better. At least then there won’t be any pretense of objectivity of the NYT.
And here she is as well using a concept like a “Nuclear Umbrella” over the Middle East. Just what is that supposed to mean. Here’s clearly an idea of major importance that she has…but she’s never articulated it.
Does she mean that she’s going to make Israel give up their nukes in exchange for all other states in the region being “nuclear free”? And back up that threat with nukes? Would we protect Iran from an Israeli attack under this concept?
What does she mean? What’s in her head and why won’t she express it!