NOTE: Today is our next installment of "First Monday" — we have a treat, with Peter Edelman of Georgetown Law coming by to talk SCOTUS, Scalia and Judging Character On The Bench. The discussion will take place at 3 pm ET/noon PT.
"Hate the liberals and the gays" has a resurgence, just in time for the election. Shocking.
For the power pastors of the religious right, it’s about maintaining their hold on power and the illusion of control of political dialogue. For with such control and the trappings of power come large and regular donations. And those donations perpetuate their hold on power.
PFAW’s Right Wing Watch put this YouTube clip together of a Coral Ridge Ministries program designed to motivate pastors to involve their congregations in electoral politics:
On Saturday, Coral Ridge Ministries—the televangelism empire of the late D. James Kennedy—broadcast a special program to encourage pastors to involve their churches in this year’s elections. While the panelists—Tony Perkins of Family Research Council, Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, Jordan Lorence of Alliance Defense Fund, and Gary DeMar of American Vision—offered the usual admonishments that there’s no such thing as separation of church and state, the theme of the evening was that Christianity is being “suppressed” in this country by liberals and the “militant homosexual agenda.”…
This is the persecuted majority syndrome: the idea that it’s a whole lot simpler to convince people to join your political program if you convince them that their faith is “under attack.” This has been one of the Religious Right’s dominant themes over the last few years through campaigns such as FRC’s “Justice Sunday,” a series of televised, church-based rallies to support President Bush’s most radical judicial nominees, who the Right claimed were being opposed because of their religion.
Oh, please. Why do they still have tax exempt status when they are very clearly operating as a shell wing of the Republican party, motivating their flocks through fear of damnation to vote for the GOP? Personally, I find using denial of salvation as a means of political whipping offensive, and a contemptible, shameful abuse of the power of faith. And I’m not alone in thinking this.
After watching the Rev. Wright media hoohaw, why do the "pastors of the right" continually get a pass? Especially when they deliberately and provocatively insert themselves into the political process with a vengeance? Hypocrisy, much?
As Emproph at Pam’s House Blend puts it:
Just like the thief who thinks everyone is stealing from them…
Just like the liar who thinks everyone is lying to them…
Jordan Lorence of the Alliance Defense Fund thinks…the ACLU and the homosexual activists, who are into coercing unwilling people to do things, and to silence them, and all of that. There is an authoritarianism to that, that they are in total denial about
Ever heard of projection, Jordan? You may want to look it up.
Amen. Having uncovered DOJ personnel decisions by political and sexuality hiring purity tests, and with an office of religious dole in the White House dispensing public funds for church programming, I think I can safely say that their version of "Christian persecution complex" (H/T Ed Brayton) is a load of election year hooey. Shouldn’t the religious right be called out for lying to their flock? Or is bearing false witness no longer a sin?
Especially when their hold on power within the GOP is tenuous — or is being honest about their declining influence not something of interest?
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So, Christy!
Good morning Christy!
where’s the IRS and enforcement of 501c3 when you need it?
It’s amazing how some things can be predicted like clockwork every coupla years, isn’t it? It’s the first part of May in an election year: the leaves are coming out on the oak tree across the street, and the religious right begins their “fear, fear, fear” campaign stoking for the Fall…
Being used to investigate any minister who preaches an anti-war sermon?
The TheoCons might want to start reading their bibles. Again and again and again, the Bible recounts stories in which God’s angelic messengers tell everyone they meet some version of “Do not be afraid!” Rightwing preachers, OTOH, seem to tell everyone they meet “Be afraid! Be very afraid!”
Morning pups. Another day, another round of bad news. I read in the paper that our prison system has 83 unaccounted for deaths of persons held on immigration charges and green card violations. Oh well. Other countries do it to, I guess.
It is amazing how much of their theology seems to be Revelations-based ministry, all fear, alla time. It’s as though the entire rest of the New Testament is written in some impossible to decipher language of hope and good acts and compassion…funny how the rest of us can read it just fine, isn’t it?
If I believed in an anti-Christ I would definately think that Bush was one of his false prophets.
He speaks endlessly of peace but has delivered endless war for 7 years.
-G
I saw that — the NYTimes has a piece on it as well here.
Revelations based, except when they want to quote Leviticus.
And a twisted reading of Revelation, at that.
Yes, well, why bother with reading comprehension when reading manipulation gets you what you want? More fear = more power, I’m afraid, for these folks.
Yeah — funny how that whole “don’t touch the skin of a pig” thing doesn’t fly during football season, though, isn’t it? *g*
Maybe they weren’t issued the secret decoder ring. Mornin’ all.
The Hebrew scriptures have some rather strong things to say about so-called prophets who go around crying “peace, peace” when there is no peace.
The book of Jeremiah in particular would likely induce nightmares if read in the White House shortly before bedtime.
Some pix from my trip thru the inland empire:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..mpire.html
first one’s my fave. the rest were seen by the usual couple hundred thou.
Well, like other little things that come out of the ground to bloom, the fearmongering Right has emerged from the frost…
why do the “pastors of the right” continually get a pass? Especially when they deliberately and provocatively insert themselves into the political process with a vengeance?
I’m interested in the question of just who, and *why*, keeps believing these guys?
Haven’t they noticed that they’ve gotten none of the promises (with the possible exception of judges) made in 2000 and 2004, fulfilled?
That’s OK. I’d just as soon they leave me alone anyway.
Peterr — I thought that you would, especially, be interested in the “Christian persecution complex” link above. It’s a provocative essay on the roots of that and how it’s been manipulated by the religious right the last few years. I found it an intriguing read…
quote Leviticus.
President Bartlett speaks on Leviticus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI
LOL
Morning all :)
Great post Christy.
Just to provide a point of reference and context: Tony Perkins, now of the Family Research Council, was a protegé of Woody Jenkins — the Republican who was just defeated in the LA-06 race this weekend.
Perkins managed Jenkins’ 1996 U.S. Senate race against Mary Landrieu. He purchased a supporter/contributor database from former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke; Duke had created that list during his 1991 for governor of Louisiana against Edwin Edwards.
Jenkins, regularly described as “a suburban newsweekly publisher”, actually has deep roots in the conservative movement. He was the first executive director of the Council for National Policy. He headed “Friends of the Americas” which was rumored to have shared airplanes with the arms supply wing to the Contras which figured in the Iran/Contra scandal.
Jenkins and Perkins served in the Louisiana House of Representatives together, but it was Jenkins who opened the doors for Perkins to emerge on that national stage.
Jenkins’ record is well known in Louisiana. That may well have had something to do with the fact that former Republican Congressman Richard Baker, whose resignation created the vacancy which prompted the recent special election, did not endorse Jenkins against Democrat Don Cazayoux.
funny how that whole “don’t touch the skin of a pig” thing doesn’t fly during football season, though, isn’t it? *g*
and what about *professional* football players? Touching the dead skin – *and* working on Sunday….
Do we stone them once, or twice?
Is there a Super-Bowl-Winner exemption?
One other aspect of the “persecuted majority complex” is the way it fits in with the “prosperity preaching” done by many on the TheoCon Right. If the accumulation of personal wealth is a sign of God’s blessing, then the lack of wealth among the poorer TheoCon faithful in the pews could be seen as a sign of God’s displeasure. Since, however, God could not possibly be displeased with such good people, the fact their prayers for wealth have not been answered must be because Satan is persecuting God’s faithful people by using the ACLU, gays, libruls, and all the rest of Satan’s minions.
Left unanswered, however, is the question that this theology begs: is your God so small, that he can be thwarted by some First amendment lawyers and some same-sex couples? The Rightwing Preachers ™ do *not* want to answer that one.
There is some very sick theology at work here, intermingled in some very dangerous ways with government.
Meanwhile, despite — or perhaps because of — the throwing of the kitchen sink at Obama, he’s doing better among white voters than he was at the start of the campaign: http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1144
Even better: In last week’s special election in Louisiana, efforts by the GOP to use Obama and Pelosi against the Democrat Cazayoux in a heavily-Republican congressional district failed miserably, and LA-06 now has a Democratic representative for the first time in over thirty years:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/4/111946/0004
If expensive GOP efforts to play the race card using Obama (and/or the “gay card” using “San Francisco liberal” Nancy Pelosi) in LA-06 can’t stop Democrats from getting elected, that bodes well for Obama in the rest of the country.
busy,busy, busy
There was lots of bad blood in the LA-06 GOP side, that’s for sure. There were people who resented Baker for blatantly cashing in and/or tacitly admitting that he’d rather go for a lucrative and less stressful lobbyist career than spend the next few months trying to raise money from a shrinking number of donors just to be part of a shrinking minority caucus in Congress.
is your God so small, that he can be thwarted by some First amendment lawyers and some same-sex couples?
or a scared, pregnant 15 year-old girl getting an abortion?
and, hey, whaddya doing making my argument – I thought I came up with that one all by myself.
‘Course, that seems to happen a lot…
where’s the IRS and enforcement of 501c3 when you need it?
501(c)(4)’s, actually.
mebbe they could get ol’ man Phelps out there to do something about that part of the bible. make it a hat trick with the blending of fabrics
The NYTimes had an intriguing glimpse of that schism in the opinion section this weekend, regarding black theologians and the liberationist versus the prosperity wings in the pulpits of a lot of the black churches. It’s really fascinating stuff from a theoretical standpoint, and would make for some great discussion if it weren’t for so many of the parishoners being caught in the middle of the maelstrom in that struggle between two polar opposites in theological philosophy and push…
Maybe we need “Be not afraid” bumperstickers and signs at baseball games like the John3:16 [17?] folks do? Oh, and windshield drops in every evangelical parking lot in America on Sunday mornings.
Damn, they must envy the Taliban something fierce. A bunch of guys running around with guns, wives and womenfolk “in their place”, total freedom to repress anyone who disagrees and license to kill the infidels among them in gruesome, yet oh-so-biblical ways.
They don’t call them Talibangelicals for naught.
Funny youshould say that Peterr. My best friend and minister asked me to preach in his absence this June and I told him I was too much of a Jeremiah for this staid rural Lutheran congregation*g*
He now refers to me as Jeremiah.
Now that would be hilarious! Good idea…for bumper stickers, too.
That looks quite interesting. I’ve got it bookmarked for later reading — but a very muddy six year old has just come in from trying to catch crickets, and I’ve got to attend to the mess.
Christy, this is a very good post — and let’s hope it comes to the attention of some of the media folks around.
Spotlight, anyone? If the national press won’t cover it, the local media might take a whack at it. A fair number of the local reporters I know relish the thought of tweaking the celebrity journalists who give their profession a bad name.
The good news, they have nothing to say that is either new, or important.
Watch the YouTube, Jo — they lay it on seriously thick. SIGH
Started to read that piece – and will go back and finish it later. It is interesting. I’m surprised, though, that he goes back to the founding of the church, but does not seem to consider the Reformation in his analysis – much more recent, and I know that the effects of persecution during and after the reformation live on in the Mennonite church in which I was raised – I know I was raised on martyrdom stories and the sense of being a persecuted minority – reinforced in the case of Russian Mennonites by their experiences before, during and after the Russian revolution.
…or the reporting and investigative journalism by the media… oh, wait….
oh how right you are.
‘morning Christy, your post is linkalicious.
The problem is 501(c)3’s — classic charities such as churches, schools, hospitals — using their tax advantages to do political lobbying, as if they were a 501(c)4.
Link explaining the difference
Basically 501(c)4 organizations can lobby, but donations to them are not tax deductible.
Good morning, Christy:
Good morning, all …
What you say, Christy, is true.
But today, I choose to focus on the wondrous possibility (a certainty, in fact!) of doing ‘well’ by doing ‘good’ in the new ‘Dream Zone’ (previously termed, ‘Green’).
This is our best opportunity of showing the natives how swell Free Interprise really is.
Remember, however, that the coming GOLDEN AGE is a bit frightening for the unimaginative and small-minded American public.
Therefore there is the absolute necessity of gaining their attention … periodically … itr’s almost a religious thing.
Note: The preceding SNARK is all snark, except where it borders on despair.
I did, how depressing. They’re like moldy whitebread, you might be able to consume it but it’s a good be that eventually it’s gonna either make you sick or kill you.
I figured it’s a Monday morning. What else do folks have to do with their time? *g*
I also found this series on Theocratic Dominionism, but I haven’t had time to read it in full, so I didn’t include the link above. Thought others might be interested in the read as well, so here’s the link if you want to take a peek. Just know I haven’t fully read or vetted it as yet…
Maybe we could devise a plan to stir up an argument among these groups;, e.g., create rumors that Tony Perkins thinks it’s okay for women to have short hair, or Jordan Lorence thinks organ music in church is okay, and Gary DeMar doesn’t think the grape juice actually turns into blood. It always gets me that “the flock” doesn’t realize that prayer in school would be somebody’s particular prayer and likely to tread on the “beliefs” of somebody else. Oh well.
Incredible.
“I find it totally offensive.” (to be referred to as a fascist)
ooo and it’s Cinco de Mayo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK-66voXBNI
TAX THE CHURCH!!!
TAX THE CHURCH!!!!
TAX THE CHURCH!!!!
And while you’re at tr have the Food and Drug Administration indict it for FRAUD!!!!!
yeah, you’re right – realized my mistake a coupla seconds after I hit “submit”.
I guess I either really need the “Edit” function back, or a button that says “please ignore everything I just said”… *g*
Well that’s because the correct term is Christofascist. No one likes to be mis-labled. *g
Democrats have there own problems in LA-06, as well as possibly in LA-04, LA-07, and the senate race. The problem is that a number of African American Democratic state legislators (among them Rep. Michael Jackson in LA-06) are considering running as independents in the November federal elections, thereby avoiding Democratic primary races where they could/would face better-funded white Democrats.
The logic of these challenges (if they materialize) is that Barack Obama at the head of the Democratic ticket will spark record turnout by Louisiana African American voters and they could ride that turnout wave into pluralities that could catapult them into seats in the Congress.
This thinking is very pre-bubble tech entrepreneur like: seeing only the upside and discounting the downside. The more likely outcome would be Republican wins in those districts due to a split Democratic vote.
It is more than a bit ironic that the record turnout that these African American legislators hope to ride will be driven by a candidate (Obama) who has succeeded in large measure because he has not run a campaign based on race; and, yet, these lawmakers hope to capitalize on this by running what would be race-based campaigns for Congress.
The Louisiana Democratic Party bears no small share of responsibility for this state of affairs. The party, its funders, and many of its white candidates have a long record of relying on a solid block of African American support to win election, only to turn their backs on that same block when it comes to governing.
Lot of the dudes like that organ music.
Hard to hold a serious theological discussion around here. :>}
Somewhat OT, but this morning I heard that CNN had declared themselves a Jeremiah Wright free zone today in deference to their viewers wishes. They said that their viewers wanted them to move on, so that’s what they’re doing! I wanted to say thank you and congratulations for recognizing that this was a media thing, not something the people wanted to hear about ad nauseum!
Not to worry, it was a useful opportunity to go back and review my notes on the difference between the two.
I’ll stay away from that one.
Oh, man, if that’s true then that sound I heard this morning was wingnut heads exploding. Stand by for calls of “Liberal Media Bias” ad nauseum.
Everyone is Hot this morning.
Good Day Christy,
I was thinking about the All Saints Church also, as I read your post.
But, now that I’m reading the comments, I don’t have to do the links…y’all did that already.
I’ve been to that church. (a perk of living in LA) as well as watched some of the “evil” sermons preached against the war online.
They really are awesome. In a different way than the Talibangelicals.
Praise the Lord. It was getting to the point that I was having to fore go my news addiction.
BTW, meant to mention above that today is ou next installment of “First Monday” — we have a treat, with Peter Edelman of Georgetown Law coming by to talk SCOTUS, Scalia and Judging Character On The Bench. The discussion will take place at 3 pm ET/noon PT.
Well, knock me over with a spoon! Not to worry, darlin’, they’ll make up for it tomorrow…..and tomorrow…..and tomorrow……
In a prior thread on how to discipline healthcare professionals for aiding and abetting Cheney’s torture regime, I said that Bush was rapidly dismantling society’s checks and balances, not just the federal government’s. I think this development supports that hypothesis.
In a healthy society, these preachers’ sermons and their open politicizing of their ministries would be met with dismay. Churchgoers would question this use of the flock by their ministers, how it was ignoring what the needs of the flock to pursue personal power. It would be met with a loss of support as that realization spread, and as the inevitable tax man (reviled but respected for his neutrality) came calling, declaring their ministries to be what they are — profit making enterprises with a religious component.
That’s not happening in the way it would have done twenty or fifty or a hundred years ago. The Orwellian conflations have partially taken hold. The position of “leader” is becoming more entrenched. The tax man and all his government is becoming increasingly disdained because it is no longer neutral in its determinations or competent in its actions. In fact, it’s no longer even the government, but outsourced accountants and bounty hunters doing his job at twice the cost with less gained.
The press no longer question and ask the important questions. It asks, instead, “Do you really want to watch your President’s breasts sag as she ages?” or “Do you want that
uppity boy, radical Muslim, effete Ivy Leaguer, non-bowlerjunior Senator from Illinois to sit in the Oval Officerather than serve a real President his morning coffee?”People are, however, waking up to this loss of their normal checks and balances. They’re realizing that the press isn’t doing its job, but that lowly-paid bloggers are. That the collective they pay dearly for — government — isn’t doing a proper one either. Which means that a lot of things they were counting on, a lot of things they thought they’d paid government to take care won’t be taken care of. And that they now desperately need to do something about it.
That’s not a loss of patriotism, but finding true patriotism. That’s not criticism of religious fervor or government, but of bad religion and government. That’s the people finally telling its employees that they’re not doing a good job or a passable job, but that they’re working for somebody else and doing a horrible, no good, very bad job. And firing them.
FAITH not ‘religion’ separates the spiritual man(saved) from the natural man (a man cursed by God). The Scriptures clearly say that the Earth (our world) is ruled by Satan and God is on standby. Keep the Faith and toss the Huckster.
Ahem!!
In the Homeland;
Religion (and the American Military) are above criticism.
This is axiomatic.
‘Discussion’, if it is sufficiently respectful, is permitted, but only when the moon is blew …
Agnostics, Atheists (and war-resistors) are NOT allowed to join the discussion, because their prejudice is obvious …
Everybody knows the rules.
Or else we are ALL in trouble …
OT – gettin’ pretty nervous about tomorrow’s votes. I thought North Carolina was pretty much safe for Obama, but looks like it’s tightening up…
and Indiana, where I live, seems to be polling at about +6% for HRC – ‘course, this state is so red I don’t know whether anyone knows how to even find, let alone poll, Democrats.
I think that there’s only about 8 of us….
A good satire of the moral majority, theocons, neocons, macho Republicans, Faux News, etc: “The Department of Homeland Decency: Decency Rules and Regulations Manual.” Their motto: “We’re marching proudly backwards to the future.” It’s available everywhere. http://www.homelanddecency.com
Thank you for the heads up.
Now, I can plan for that — get a few things done between now and then.
Last weeks thread was wonderful.
Oh, goody. Something good to look forward to. :)
Burma says that 4,000 were killed in the cyclone which struck the country. I watched the development of this storm. It was one of those that begins right in the center of the bay of Bengal. The curve of the coastlines allows it to build in place and then it drifts over and hits one of those coasts. This time it was Burma. It is surprising how little these big storms are covered, except for those off our Atlantic and Pacific coasts.
HRC’s unforgivable sin?
Win at all costs, and do the republicans work for them. You know she had those meetings with Murdoch and Mellon Scaife for a reason. McCain is not their boy, he’s a placeholder. Hillary is their go-to guy for continued corporatist favor (and fervor).
Can’t toss him. The Huckster suspended his campaign, but may return as McCain’s choice for VP.
lol @ “It’s the law. Are you be ready?”
Damn, I’d love to be here for that, but I’ll be in a dental chair. :(
Yes, you have described the situation we are in exactly. The colonists
faced the same taxation without representation problem and were unable
to get satisfaction… hopefully the resurgence of civil interest and
discussion on the blogs can continue to influence the political solution
to those identified problems. It starts with the Democratic Party and
it’s mortgaged soul of corporate greed exemplified in the career of an
earlier generation of successful politicians now seeking a return to
the good old days rather than synthesizing a new patriotism and polity.
Uh, puh-leeze. That would require you know, actual work?
I have often wondered if the Reverend Jeremiah Wright was in part inspired by his namesake.
The 23rd Psalm, in particuar, comes to mind because it is so well known.
Note: Not a believer.
To paraphrase an Anglican canon in a Rumpole episode, “Don’t confuse the Christian church with Christianity.” A peasant craftsman, a village Jew. How would he view the wealth and power and political connectedness to the emperor of these modern-day Father Coughlins? Would he regard them as serving their flocks or themselves? The same question a Franciscan monk would have asked a medieval Cardinal and that Tom Joad would have asked the real father Coughlin. The visage these ministers see on that Roman coin is their own.
The Clinton record in 1980’s Arkansas and 1990’s DC is one of unfettered
corporate gravy train veiled by “programs” that offer symptomatic help
but no change to the system that produces the symptoms. It is the way
of the Republican Party.
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can. – Frank Zappa
I think he did mention that during his interview by Bill Moyers.
Jeremiah and the other prophets.
and,
When I couldn’t get to sleep last night, worrying about stuff, I was meditating on the Paths of Righteousness stanza of that Psalm.
Oh, this country is in such a mess.
I guess what we believe to be righteousness isn’t the same as what the folks at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue believe.
Well you know, she was a “Goldwater Girl” once. Maybe forever?
Oh, I love Rumpole. *G* Thanks for the reminder…
How could you possibly argue with someone whom named their child Moon Unit. :)
Yep – that…and commercial tv as well.
Consider for a moment any beauty in the name Ralph.
– Frank Zappa, on being asked by Joan Rivers why he gave his children such odd names
there is the how. how about the why!?
I find it interesting that some the most intriguing televison in recent memory has his kids involved in it.
1,833 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen JoFish and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
You have Mrs. McClinton pegged right on…I would say, however, that her unforgivable sin is bein’ a corporate fascist. If there is anythin’ we have learned in the last 6 years it’s that the corporate takeover of the parties of the left in western Democracies is about complete. Tony Blair was a catholic and a corporatist who hid Pinochet from the Spanish and he and Mr. Bill were the leading knights for the “third way” corporatist movement. There isn’t a single European country outside a possibly Spain that has a bonafide, established labor or progressive party.
No Brother Jo, Mrs. McClinton is not good for children and other livin’ things because she is not a democrat (with lower case) and she and her husband have been wholly owned subsidiaries of the corporate oligarchy since Mr. Bill ran for governor of Arkansas the third time after makin’ his peace with Tyson and the local Arkansas money. The American fascist oligarchy goes back ta antebellum political America and they’ve been usin’ political terror and undemocratic but constitutional methods to maintain political control since 1877…whaddya think the”solid Democratic South ” and the Dixiecrats were all about?
This primary is an existential battle for a continuing progressive movement in the Democratic Party and Mrs. Clinton that movement’s biggest foe.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE BASTARDS AIN’T GUNNA GIVE US OUR MONEY BACK…WE’RE GUNNA HAFTA TAX IT OUTTA THE FUCKERS!!
That was the original kool-aid… must be pretty strong stuff from what
I see going on now. Trying to reform the Democratic Party in the midst
of primary season is nasty business, but it must be done or the fix
stays in if the Clintons go back in.
eek, it’s not one of them “reality” tv shows is it?
are you this Mike Stagg ? – Welcome to the Lake
Asked once why he gave his children such unusual names, Zappa reputedly said simply: “Because I wanted to”.
He also considered that “Zappa” might be more of a problem than their unconventional first names.
Sounds perfectly logical to me :)
the 23rd strikes a deep and mournful note here.
when will the killing end?
Jeremiah though produced the word jeremiad in our language: A literary work or speech expressing a bitter lament or a righteous prophecy of doom.
Citizen Norske, once again you have nailed it, the Clintons have a
record of complete corporate servitude perfected in Arkansas and
spread nationwide from DC, and they want more, like Johnny Rocco.
Yes. Thanks!
Been a reader for a couple of years. Just got drawn in to posting by the reference to Tony Perkins.
Being named Moon Unit might pretty much assure that you would never be allowed near a church.
Norske — You have been asked before to cease and desist on the McClinton crap. You can disagree with her policies all you like — but she and McCain are far, far apart on a number of policies and conflating the two as being the exact same is utter crap.
Okay. That, and Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
I do enjoy learning the exegesis of words.
i was thinking more along the lines of the prophet jeremiah who’s call to justice and who’s warning is ignored:
for a more current take, i liked this interview with Jonathan L. Walton:
Good Luck!
1,833 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen merkwurdigliebe (”murk” fer short):
The Goldwater “movement” was the mainstreaming of Northern anti-communist fascism and the Republican Party has not had a real “centrist” or “moderate” conservative elected leader since. All the “moderate” corporatists went ta the Democratic Party.
Once a fascist always a fascist…it’s in her political genes.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, FASCISM WON’T GO AWAY WITHOUT A FIGHT!!
I can think of one “church” where at least the name would fit.
surely we don’t need to be protected from views with which we disagree? especially views that are held by our friends and allies?
That was five years ago. It was great and it was fun, but it didn’t work.
I agree, with you, selise.
Excellent news!
True. I was too quick.
do it again!
But, doesn’t the Host(ess) get to make the guidelines?
If Mrs. Clinton is the nominee, there’s going to be a lot of word eating. We have to stick together for the general, I think.
Rumpole and the Age of Miracles. A good parallel story for your comment this morning. It involved six wealthy locals wanting to make a killing from putting up an unwanted shopping center next to an ancient cathedral. They falsely accused a senior minister of adultery in an attempt to discredit his opposition to their plans. (Familiar theme, eh?)
Two things frustrated their plans: Rumpole was on the other side, and the crown had given that land to the cathedral three hundred years before, so it wasn’t really the property developers’ to play with.
Rumpole’s faith was simple, a guide for the Everyman. He believed in the health giving properties of claret, the presumption of innocence, that people should be left alone, but rarely government or businesses, and that no one should be exempt from having their accusations questioned in the witness box.
’sup, pups? Just got up and into the first cup of coffee.
Surely we don’t need to keep repeating the phrase “McClinton” when we have been asked to stop using it, either? Surely we can make our political points without using wurlitzer tactics. Her name is Clinton — McClinton is an inaccurate attempt to paint her into a political corner which Norske has been asked — repeatedly — to stop doing. That he continues to do it says a lot about his need to push rhetorical buttons. But the accuracy of its use is something that is genuinely questionable, and it’s damaging.
Call Sen. Clinton’s political viewpoints into question all you like. But politically, her position on choice, on children’s issues, on health care, on any number of other issues important to progressives is world’s apart from McCain’s — and it’s inaccurate and manipulative to pretend otherwise. There are issues where all three candidates have similarities on a whole host of subjects, yet McObama never makes a showing. Why is that?
Debating ideas is fine and dandy. But trying to label a potential Democratic candidate in such a way as to make them unelectable after the primary for progressives is damaging on a number of levels. While I still think Obama is likely to win the entire thing, I’m not going to sit by and have someone try and hand the election to McCain because button pushing is more important that long-term strategic thought. Sorry, but I’m just not going to sit back and watch people form a circular firing squad for fun.
I did mean only the name. I couldn’t possibly see either of Frank’s kid subscribing to the Rev Moon’s bullshit.
Citizen Hardin Smith:
And I have told you before, I will call her what she is as long as I have breath and as long as she continues to advance John McCain and John McCain’s talkin pointz and tactics against her DEMOCRATIC opponent.
If the supporters of Mrs. McClinton can’t take the tactics they have used on their opponents then they shouldn’t have used ‘em in the first place…come on Christy you can’t be serious!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BLAME ME IF THE TRUTH HURTS!
BTW, I first read this in my dead tree Rolling Stone. Great article:
An Atheist Goes Undercover to Join the Flock of Mad Pastor John Hagee
Scary peeps.
well thanks for the Perkins/Jenkins link – these bastids are nothing if not incestuous . . . links to Oliver North, Amway-DeVoss – good gaia !
But, I stand by my characterization of John McBu’ush. And his Repu’ublicist Party.
There’s a bit of Jeremiah in all of us which is why we are activists through anger or despair.
I appreciate Norskie’s point of view and would surely miss his “voice”
I agree! Too bad the moonie tunes has soiled such a perfectly wonderful name.
“The man in the moon is man made.”
And I’ve told you before that if you continue to do so, the term will be excised from your comments manually. I’ve asked nicely up to now, Norske…but you continue to have some need to push the edge of the envelope for your own purposes, and I’ve really had it with the mislabelling. Things are too volatile right now to play around the edges — the entire Democratic party is coming apart at the seams in some places, including across the blogs. And crap like this isn’t helping.
FDL seems to have an irritating and slow “auto-refresh” function that I don’t encounter on other sites, except for the WaPoo, which I visit only for a Froomkin fix. I’ve read other comments here from readers having similar or related problems. Comments?
No, I understood. I’m actually not a Zappa afficianado and thought the 60’s child-naming fad a little silly, even thoughtless, but didn’t really mean any serious criticism. I had a slightly unusual first name and had difficulty with it all my life. Accordingly, I gave my kids all standard, easy to grasp names.
Citizen Norske:
Your look’n at a tree when we have a forest to see.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T USE THAT “Mc” WORD!
Hmmmm…I’m not having an issue. What browser are you using? Sometimes there is a WordPress/Opera interface problem…
O/T, BTW…Headin’ for $200.
Every day now when I go to the nursing homes to check on my parents, it’s about $7.50 through the tank. Fun.
It happens from time to time, could be traffic problem or the server
may be having a tantrum.
So, is this a bad idea?
Yes, this is a liberal progressive blog and will use censorship and banning to keep it so.
I think you and norske are repeating GOP talking points. The prudishly prurient and exploitative “Judge” Ken Starr spent several years and seventy million US Dollars attempting to prove your point and came up empty.
The decision to switch our currency to the Bush dollar was a disasterous one.
‘They devour widow’s fortunes, and for a pretense they make long prayers…”
That was Jesus’ description of the pharisees and theri scribes.
Nowadays, these televangelists and wingnuts with big churches are the new Pharisees. And just as then, there is one very good word to describe them.
HYPOCRITES!
…and their phoney f*&^%n’ faith based thing.
They will be held accountable for their hypocrisy.
Considering the surrent state of our nation, maybe they are already feelinf the heat.
And the rest of us get to suffer right along with them, as they create a world full of enemies, and ruin our economy to promote their profane unholy wars.
What was it that Spock said?
The needs of the many out weight the needs of the one.
the decision to switch to Bush was the real disaster – imo
The supply threats is BS. The heart of the matter is in the position of the dollar. The big hedge fund money is sloshing back and forth between the two. The dollar goes up, money flows out of oil futures, and the futures price goes down. The dollar goes down as it did today and the money flows the other way and prices increase.
About every other time that come here (meaning every other day) My browser generates a message saying there is a script that is making it run slowly. Even though I terminate the script, it evenually causes my machine to lock up and in the worst case corrupts my video drivers.
I logged in this morning and thought I’d mistakenly clicked on the Kenny Loggins Fanclub Message Board.
;)
When it damages the Democratic brand in an election year and allows for the potential to hand over SCOTUS and the federal courts along with no change in policy? I missed the part where we had to just roll over and play stupid…or where when someone is asked nicely to simply refrain from using a damaging phrase that it’s perfectly acceptable social behavior to keep using it — ad nauseum?
The latest Mozilla, few plug-ins, and the usual updated firewalls, anti-virus, anti-spam, etc. If no one else is experiencing it, must be my vivid imagination.
it’s your place and you can make the rules. but imo you are very likely going to have to ban norske to if you want that rule followed. and i think that banning, or driving him off as was done to kiddo, diminishes those of us who are left behind.
i think criticism of political figures is quite different than criticism of each other. and criticism of political figures has always been not just tolerated but encouraged here. why should the exception be made for clinton?
if the choice is between solidarity with a politician and/or the democratic party and solidarity with a fellow commenter and activist – i would hope that we will choose each other over a politician we’ve never met and don’t even know.
… and just to make clear – i too am very concerned about how this primary is affecting us. i just think the solution is not to be found in imposing a narrowed range of acceptable discourse. i think and hope we can find it in learning to disagree with each other and to accept that we disagree. and doing so in a community of mutual respect for each other and where our primary loyalty is to each other and not to a president or a presidential candidate or any political figure.
i hope that expressing my views on this is not also against the new rules? this is the first time i’ve seen the issue come up.
I agree. Big Dogs are making the market. Just like they’re now doing with food commodities.
Mrs. Hardin Smith:
Do what you hafta do, but do it out in the open, —out the terms you don’t like so folks ken see what is bein’ censored.
As for your argument that we must be nice to Mrs. Clinton because she may be the Democratic nominee is ridiculous…if you think that her candidacy won’t result in a fatal hemorrhage of the progressive left and the new Democratic registrants, then you have your head in the sand. And if she were to become President what makes you think that “choice” or any other nominally “liberal” position is safe?
I disagree with you that Mrs. Clinton is an alternative to John McCrazy and the fascists…as a matter of fact, her acendance to the White House would be the end of the new “progressive” movement in the Democratic Party…look at her husband Mr. Bill’s history, he had a Democratic majority and the first thing he did was sabotage it and run behind the smoke the fascists put up to dismantle the social safety net and implement economics that made a lot more billionaires but eliminated the middle class.
No Sister Hardin Smith, you go ahead and censor me but don’t pull a Clinton…do it so everyone can see.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T DEFELECT YOUR ANGER, YER GUNNA NEED ALL THE FRIENDS YOU KEN GET!!
I used to get that earlier. Since moving to Firefox 3 i haven’t had that error.
Jeez. The cemeteries will be interesting:
RIP
4nik8or Smith
I did not and would not use Ken Starr and his investigation for a
source. There are other studies of the Clinton years out there that are
well sourced and not political in intent. The record is one of complete
co-option by corporate interests, Arkansas is next door to me, I saw it
for myself.
Cheney said that Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter. Cheney has proven that Reagan was completely wrong.
Not if you’re a libertarian.
I agree with the substance of Norske’s critique, but I think Christy is right on the big picture. She’s a far cry from McCain. The problem for us is that she’s a far cry from being progressive.
I think she’s doing about the best she can with what she’s got to work with, which isn’t much. It’s not her; it’s the country.
A utilitarian philosophy that was used to justify the worst of Mao’s and Stalin’s oppressions. It doesn’t work as social philosophy but as individual moral choice involving sacrifice.
5m17h
lol :)
“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”. Romulans can twist that to give torture and pre-emptive war credibility neither merits.
I would be cautious about support for unqualified majoritarian rule; it’s something the Constitution goes out of its way to limit in order to preserve personal freedoms and the longterm functioning of government.
I have trouble also with the front page and even the second page, can’t say about the third page ’cause the second page never works and so I am rebooting.
Win XP, Firefox.
Once I’m in, I have no trouble going between threads within FDL, and don’t get bogged down at emptywheel’s or TBogg’s
Sometimes a lot of things happen outside the purview of public commenting that you don’t see. But that Jane and I do because we get it in e-mail and otherwise…as threats, as insinuations, and otherwise. Consider that gets taken into the mix when something happens with any particular action taken.
That we don’t discuss individual situations publicly? That’s because sometimes we have had to deal with things we considered to be offshoots of mental illness or otherwise with various problems and felt that smacking someone down harshly and publicly would not be appropriate. Even if publicly what we — and the blog — has to deal with is vilification or beyond.
But that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right decision in the end. So perhaps given all of the work and sweat and time we have put into this, Jane and I might be entitled on occasion to a little presumption of trying to do the best we can with limited resources on the fly, and trying to do so in a caring and professional manner to the extent possible on a blog. But perhaps that is too much to ask..
knut – my own views are much closer to yours than norske’s. but i’ve been wrong before (a lot) and my objection is that we agree to limiting the discourse to only those views with agree with. i want to be challenged in my opinions.
norske has, imo, earned the right to disagree.
this isn’t about who’s political opinion i agree with – this is about who’s politicial opinion i’m going to be permitted to read here.
It is definitely a balancing act. I’m pretty sure that they didn’t mean for it to enable a minority to cripple government.
Selise — no one said Norske isn’t entitle to his opinion. What is objectionable is the term he keeps using that he’s been asked to stop using — which adds nothing other than inaccurate derision. That he keeps using it is his own choice — that it won’t appear publicly any longer is mine — and one that he’s been told, many times before and yet he keeps pushing it for his own reasons. But his opinions of Sen. Clinton are coming through loud and clear with or without the objectionable terminology.
Thank you for your responses, but, all I was saying was that sometimes one persons ego should step down a bit so that we can all work together to make sure we have a Democrat in the White House.
And, hey, I wouldn’t mind voting for a Libertarian if they had a chance to win and keep McCain out.
Precisely. It’s an approach valid for making personal choices and self-sacrifice. It doesn’t scale up without qualification for use by a whole society. It can be manipulated by those temporarily in power to stop their followers and opponents from thinking in order to make that power permanent.
Clinton’s continued presence in the race and her attacks on Obama are doing a lot more than Norske to damage the Democratic brand. I would also add the actions and inactions of Pelsoi and Reid have not exactly been burnishing the brand. If people can call McCain McBush, I see no reason why a DINO like Clinton who has been called a DINO by me and others for years can’t be called McClinton.
“So perhaps given all of the work and sweat and time we have put into this, Jane and I might be entitled on occasion to a little presumption of trying to do the best we can with limited resources on the fly, and trying to do so in a caring and professional manner to the extent possible on a blog.”
____________
That is beyond any doubt.
The sad fact of the matter is that both remaining Democratic candidates are not progressive when you get down to the nuts and bolts of their policy positions. Ian’s done some fantastic analysis on this at Agonist over the last few months. But we have what we have to work with, and for once, my primary vote may actually count for something in WV…so I suppose I’d better get my ass in gear in deciding where mine is going. (Because as quixotically tempting as an Edwards vote might still be, I don’t think he’s on our ballot any longer…)
try wubi!
Apparently, it is not beyond a doubt, Bobby. But thanks.
If we let McBu’ush into office, we will have a mess that builds exponentially on that caused by the Dilettante in Chief. I shudder to think.
We’re all just human, and we all suffer from frayed nerves episodically.
Are we really to blame for your lack in transparency in how fdl is run, and here I am not talking about any particular cases? If you choose to draw sharp distinctions between what appears on your frontpage and what occurs behind it, you are creating and perpetuating a system that looks very much like the ones we as progressives decry and criticize in our country’s politics and government.
And, for anyone interested – we all need to be extremely careful about who we throw the epithet “Fascist” toward, because, as the American Heritage Dictionary says: Fascism is defined as:
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. (emphasis is mine)
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
christy -
i don’t doubt you are doing the best you can. and i think you have no idea how much i admire and respect the work you do here. but that does not mean i will never disagree – even very, very strongly – with you.
but i will try voice my disagreement with respect towards you and everyone else here (and if you ever catch me doing it any other way, please call me on it – yesterday for example).
because i think that not being silent, of doing our best to be honest about what is our disagreement, is the way to show each other our most profound respect. i mean that sincerely.
1,833 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen selise:
You write so well and you have the most disarming way of hittin’ the point without a lot of collateral damage, like a surgeon. I on the other hand am jest an RN and I don’t have the deft reflexes and extraordinary patience good surgeons have.
But please don’t get yourself in trouble here defendin’ me or my right to make my political arguments in my own voice…no,if I am to be censored, I want all the FDLers to see it up front. Then they ken make their own minds up about where the threat to liberty comes…from some old broken down Norske or from the slick, disengenous political hacks who use liberal issues and values like “choice” and “rule of law” to divide common folks by race,gender and class.
Thanks again, Selise, I’m sorry if my contributions here have putcha in a bad spot but I ken take it…jest hang in there especially if I get marginalized or run off like kiddo and Johnathon and a few others. Sometimes we are called ta witness even when we don’t wanna.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNTION, CENSORSHIP IS NOT PART OF FREE SPEECH!!
We make fun of McSame and Holy Joe. Sometimes out of emotional frustration, more often as an attempt to expose their hypocrisies and lies, their flawed policies, and their hidden conflicts and self-dealing. Especially when the established press refuses to do those things. We try to make substantive points to illustrate our intellectual and emotional opposition to their rule.
But we – the providers and participants of this blog – aim to pursue progressive policies. Individual Democrats are subject to the same temptations as their GOP counterparts. Blue Dogs, for example, and sometimes Pelosi, DiFi, Hoyer, et al. The point is to elect better ones one election at a time.
Without rules and policing we would have blog filled with Lord of the Flies chaos, much like the state to which Bush has reduced Iraq, but without the physical deprivation, violence and terror. Allowing that would be to give up our progressive aims. Thanks, CH, for doing the work that helps keep us going.
Except if all these issues were hashed out in public, it could easily turn into all poo-flinging all the time and distract from more substantive discussions.
Norske,
Just for curiousity, do you think Obama can win the election without the support of most of Senator Clinton’s supporters?
And if so, how do you propose to bring Senator Clinton’s supporters to vote for Obama (and do so without insulting their intelligence and integrity).
(FWIW, the question works for Senator Clinton’s supporters as well)
Indeed, the hostess rules.
But, as Sander O pointed out, Firedoglake is, essentially its commenters …or maybe not.
Norske, to my knowledge has never engaged in personal assault, never called anyone else ‘delusional’ or ‘cultish’, which I think, personally, a bit ‘over the top’, perhaps even ‘crap’. Calling politicians names and things seems fair ‘game’, but calling each other names does not …
But, as you say, this Blog belongs to Jane and Christy, and if we don’t like the ‘rules’, which, no doubt, are clear, by now, to all, and may be judiciously applied when deemed ‘appropriate’, then we can leave …
Christy is so right.
‘Crap’ does not help our current situation.
I would, however, think that a more-precise definition of what exactly constitutes ‘crap’, equally ‘applicable’ to all and sundry, would be useful.
It’s not ‘censorship’ if the owner lays out the rules, just standard operating procedure, we are merely guests and should not lose sight of that reality.
Norske can just go start his own blog if he can’t be more respectful …
I for one would visit reguarly.
I still miss Kiddo and Lahoma, though, and wish I knew how to contact them.
Remember, Norske, Jane and Christy have to keep their options open; suppose Hillary Rodham Clinton wins, you’d like them to have her ear, wouldn’t you? Or, at least, the possibility, ear! ear! Dammit! Norske, say what you think, compared to the obscenity that is America today, you are a mild and thoughtful man (which I think you are anyway) and if you ‘leave’ the same way Kiddo left then I won’t be very damn far behind you.
Sporkpovat made a comment, last evening, on Siun’s post that would be worth a quick read. It is the last comment, or was, ‘the last word’ as it were.
All right, I will now desist … no more snarkish annoyance … we guests know our place.
Eloquently stated. Thanks. I too miss kiddo and Lahoma.
Currently, I think we have a majority crippling government, but hopefully not for long.
I think there are two reasons why this administration is doing that. They’re not very good and make a virtue of their ineptitude. They are actively privatizing it, which costs the taxpayers more and gives them less; it puts that money into their own pockets, and removes much of government from the oversight of the governed.
This administration’s massive privatizing of government is as dangerous to the governed as the ever escalating price of gas and never ending warfare.
While this is certainly true, I find the invocation of a State Secrets argument as a justification for how a blog is run disturbing, i.e. if you knew what we knew then you would agree with us but we can’t tell you so just trust us. Besides many of the regular commenters here already have some idea about the cases that Christy is obliquely referring to anyway.
love you norske – and especially for making me laugh right now… it’s not often i am accused of writing well. lol.
but the issue, imo, is far bigger than any of us – it’s about what does it mean to be progressive? how do we organize ourselves in ways that accord with our progressive principles? questions that, to me, are far far more important than any particular politician or political party.
i think (hope?) i’ve made my point, and that is all i feel a need to do now. but if the topic comes up again, i have no intention of being silent.
To quote Edmund Burke, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
Of course, given the fine work of the folks backstage, we most likely wouldn’t know if a commenter had engaged in personal attacks.
You know what I think?
I think sometimes some people just like to argue.
I think a ‘chorus’ will join you, selise.
MY comment @ 186 was addressed to selise
I did wonder about that. :})
Lets see if Tuesday helps with the atmosphere.
No, we wouldn’t know, would we?
So we can all be happy with our illusiions, dakine.
All I can go by is what I see and have come to ‘know’, however imperfectly in this age of secrecy.
No slight toward the mods intended.
Are we adults?
Or are we children, what do we need to be ‘protected’ from?
1,833 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Selise:
“this isn’t about whose political opinion I agree with – this is about whose political opinion I’m going to be allowed to read here.”
Bless your heart, Citizen, I wish I could express myself as well as you do but I’m old and only have 3 brain cellz left and I gotta be careful with my entropy. Your statement is what this discussion and indeed this SITE is all about. Christy and Jane have,like many artists, created something which is far beyond the sum of it’s parts and was not, I believe, established as a vehicle for their own political views or values. They have every right to make it a vehicle for their own politics and political candidates but I want ‘em ta do that in the open…and if they do they will of course change the very thing that makes this site so much larger than ANY contributor or site manager.
Isn’t it interesting that people like Mrs. Clinton who after riding free speech and liberal values will be the first to attempt to intimidate or silence their opponents when they are exposed in their contradictions. The politics of triangulation is the politics of division, it is the politics that seeks to divide people by race, gender and class and Mrs. Clinton’s candidacy is the biggest threat to the struggle for democratic (lower case) politics that we face today.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNTION, AND THEY WILL BE KNOWN TO YOU BY WHO THEY TAKE THEIR MONEY FROM!!
I would ask that question of our ‘representatives’, would they deign to answer.
Remember what Nancy said, ‘You don’t even know the half of it …’
Right, Nancy, right.
Why, Nancy, don’t we know the other ‘half’?
Is there a ‘good’ answer for that?
I.don’t.think.so.
If we stayed silent, we would be “the good man doing nothing” and allowing evil to reign, in the apocryphal phrase attributed to Burke. I think the issue is more facts and better arguments, to leaven our anger and frustration at what the GOP has become, what the CheneyBush team has done and continues to do, and at the Bush Dogs who’ve let them do it.
CH is right. Neither HRC and Obama is as progressive as the voters of ‘06 want them to be. They are both trying to appear “centrist” (whatever that means after Karl Rove remade the measuring tools) to dampen the media’s unquenchable thirst for trivia and to avoid enticing too many Republicans and Blue Dogs to vote against them.
We have to assume they mean what they say, but that they can be persuaded. As FDR said, perhaps with Eleanor in mind: “I agree with what you say, now make me do it.” Lacking an Eleanor who could do that for us, we have to do it ourselves. Progressive blogs are a good place to start.
To be honest, I think sometimes we are being protected from ourselves.
For some folks, it is far too easy to fall into the Jr High “Neener Neener” type stuff which way to many blogs have allowed themselves to do.
To my knowledge, FDL has tried, fairly successfully it seems, to foster an environment where facts and opinions can be expressed without becoming personal attacks because one person disagrees with another.
That means there can be “conversations” without wading through personal attacks which detracts and distracts from the information being provided.
Obviously, you might feel differently.
Citizen darkine01:
Your concern about not knowing what happens as a result of “the fine work of the folks backstage” is the heart of the matter. I have NEVER name called, attacked or characterized a person, only their arguments or their politics. But how would you know that?? That’s the point, if there is to be censorship, let it be right out in the open so everyone ken see…that we are having this conversation is at once heartening but also frightening given the liberal values of free speech and politics perported to be shared on this site.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE RIGHTS YOU SAVE ARE YOUR OWN IF YOU KEN KEEP ‘EM!!
Too true.
It ‘IS’ up to us, and we all have to be able to say precisely what we think, using precise, clear language, so that we may all know whom among ourselves it would be worth taking the walk to ‘the wall’ with …
This discussion helps with that reality.
Whatever anyone else may think, that is what I think.
The name is dakine if you please.
But I don’t see the censorship aspect. You are free to go and set up your own blog and say whatever you desire there.
But Jane and Christy have laid out some very basic ground rules that seem quite simple and straightforward. Most of the “rules” seem based on simple courtesy and respect for the views of others, no matter how much you might disagree with them.
You know, that old thing called the “Golden Rule?” Due unto others as you would have them do unto you. BE respectful of others, even in disagreement, and they will be respectful of you.
Is that so difficult to do?
Protected from ourselves.
From our what?
Stupity?
Hubris?
Arrogance?
Knowledge?
I’d like a further elucidation, dakine, if possible.
So that I might see if I disagree or not.
I’m inclined to some doubt, at this point.
;~D
Citizen DWBartoo:
“Protected from ourselves. From our what?…”
Great question…and it’s a bit frightenin’ ain’t it?
I’m old enough ta know that “liberals” who are gunna save us from ourselves can be as dangerous as the fascists who never pretend ta give a shit less about us or our rights.
Our perhaps you mean ‘protected’ from each other.
Not that I can’t do myself harm, or my ideas or my hopes and dreams,
I’d just like to know what to be ‘careful’ about.
I think I’m reasonably polite, tolerant, and prejudiced to the point where I’m willing to listen to just about anyone until they convince me either that they are full of ‘crap’ or downright dangerous.
What’s your ‘litmus test’ for ‘unacceptable’.
Behavioir?
Words?
What?
Again, I’m smilin’, dakine …
Just askin’ …
;~D
I have no problem with Christy’s attempt to keep the site factual. The initial article that the comments were in response to dealt with the Christian Right destroyinh and distorting facts to fit their agenda. If we continue to do the same thing, Who Are We?
the rules, as i’ve understood them, were that politicians and pundits were fair game – but that we were always to show respect to our fellow commenters and to the posters. this is a rule i fully support and endorse.
but if now we can not use derisive terms with regards to one politician (but not apparently others?) – that is a new rule. best to have it all out in the open, and imo, with a period for public comment.
Citizen DWBartoo:
Stay after it DW…the world awaits the “liberal” justification for censorship.
I would say protected from our own arrogance that would have folks issuing personal insults and challenging the integrity and intelligence of those with whom we might disagree.
As I mentioned earlier, acting like a bunch of 12 or 13 year olds on the playground instead of relatively intelligent adults with differnent views on the subject of the day.
Every now and again, some of the comments that are objectionable do make it out on thread and read like they came from Malkin or LGF or some o fthe more rabid left wing sites.
They don’t add anything to the discussion and all they do is force things along to a flame war. I’d rather have discussions where we can agree to disagree than try to wade through 250 comments with half of them being “Did Not!” “Did too” etc.
Maybe you like that type of fight, but I don’t think you would be a majority in that.
I share that ‘vintage’ perspective, Norske.
I’m old enough (and ‘mean’ enough) to NOT have to take ‘crap’ from anyone …
And perhaps, unwise enough to tell them so …
Right to their face.
Agreed. EPU land is where these things are hashed out. Why not devote a thread to these issues and allow us citizens to hash things out? I always “agree to disagree” yet this site is more important than the whole when the “ownership” issue comes up. I guess we are all volunteers and have no say in things.(where have I heard that before?)
Fight?
Dakine, I’m not talking about ‘fighting’, I’m talking about principles.
Fighting is ’stupid’ and how you consider my questions to be adolescent is perplexing to me.
Being ‘polite’ is sometimes wise, but sometimes it is cowardice, in my opinion.
Tlak of honor in a slaughter-house, for example, however polite seems far less than honorable,
And, I put it to you, that is what Irak, for instance is now become …
What are WE becoming?
Nicely put, Jim, nicely put.
1,833 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen dakine01:
“…protected from our own arrogance that would have people issuing personal insults and challenging the integrity and intelligence of those with whom we might disagree.”
Have you seen or read anythin’ on this site that even resembles “personal insults” or “challeng(es) the integrity” of any commentator here? The smearing of people and their politics seems ta fall from those who cry loudest about bein’ insulted or havin their integrity challenged.
KEEP THE FAITH AND BECAREFUL WHERE YA SLING THAT SHIT…!!!
With baited breath, my fiend, we await enlightenment…
‘friend’, Norske you old fiend you (from one to another).
;~D
Definition of “censor” from Merriam Webster: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable
http://www.merriam-webster.com…../censoring
We certainly have suppression and a threat to delete and somehow I find “McClinton” a pretty slim reed to hang objectionable on. What’s next? Not bringing up her vote on the Iraq AUMF or her support for the war for 3 years? Are we to make no mention of dodging the fire of fictional snipers? Are we to avoid mention of her vote on Kyl-Lieberman or her support for a massive retaliatory strike on Iran? I suppose that Clinton’s new working class image with her and Bill’s $100 million fortune is out as well? What’s left? Please supply me with what you think would be an appropriate hagiography.
Trying to think of an analogue here – lets say I’m a smoker and I’m invited for dinner to the home of someone who is not a smoker. I am welcomed and fed, but if I want to smoke, I am asked to take it outside – no smoking in the house. Which I do, in exchange for friendship and a good dinner.
This blog is at least in part a personal space – a home – to which we are invited. In exchange, we are asked to behave in particular ways – respectful behaviour towards other posters is one of the conditions.
In addition, this blog has a number of purposes – to get “more and better Dems” elected, to advance a “progressive” agenda, etc. If the hosts determine that using some kinds of derogatory language/names for democrat candidates is detrimental to that cause, then I don’t see that they are not within their rights to request that such language not be used. Really, Christy has made a very small request – that you stop using a single word.
Personally, I think the “censorship” argument gets trotted out way too fast.
And Norske, you are inclined to come down with a very heavy hand on people who express ideas you don’t agree with. I have not forgotten how you greeted me after my very first comment here – it was the full Norske treatment, complete with accusations of trolldom.
There was a youTube, that i can’t find any longer, of Clinton’s Iraq talking points interlaced with Bush/MSM/GOP Iraq talking points. She echoed every point made by Bush/MSM/GOP. Anybody remember that t00b?
We are in the post factual era, this is about emotion and having
“arrived”… too bad, came here because the MSM would not fact check
the war, the Libby trial was the game changer and FDL and Next Hurragh
were the cutting edge. That was then. The Clintons are probably leaning
hard, and I mean hard, on critics right now… they get mad and get
even with non-corporate types, kiss up and kick down is the reality
everywhere these days.
LOL The life of a ’saint’ …
True canonization requires beatification first, and that requires a ‘demise’.
‘Dead-beat politician’ takes on new meaning, Hugh …
Hope the Pope has got his eyes on the die … for it has been cast.
I’d like to read what you write. That would be easier without the distracting CAPITALS or the slogans you introduce and end your comments with. I don’t think those are needed here to gain our attention. Thanks.
Citizen Fern:
“Personally, I think the ‘censorship’ argument gets trotted out way too fast.”
That’s interestin’…I find it amusing that you should be all for censoring someone with whom you disagree because they have used a “heavy hand” on your arguments or your politics. The best way to avoid “the ‘censorship’ argument” is not to censor in the first place…and as for gettin’ “more and better Dems elected” and “advanc(ing) a progressive agenda”, Mrs.Clinton is the biggest obstacle to those objectives and she would be the first to endorse censorin’ anyone who advances that proposition.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITON, FREE SPEECH AND POLITICS DON’T BELONG TO YOU THEY BELONG TO EVERYONE…GET OVERIT!!
Always glad to amuse.
Agree! Beware, I got shot down big time for saying the same thing.
“Hate the liberals” is something that been on my mind as of late. I suppose it has been on my mind because FDL has had a few book salons recently which has addressed the branding and policy issues of liberalism.
Liberalism is not only domestic policy but it is also foreign. It seems, to me, to be a rouse to only talk about liberals in a domestic setting and, seemingly, forget about the foreign. The argument kinda boils down to the classic “Your for us or against us” / “Liberal vs. Conservative” mind set.
I’m honestly not too inclined to like liberalism that much as I look back on US policy abroad.
Foreign policy hardliners in the liberal Democratic Party insisted on
the Vietnam War and left the party to join the Republicans to continue
the fight. Cold War Liberalism is modern neoconservatism’s lineage
with the enhancements of successor generation’s agendas added to give us
what we have now… long ugly story.
Earl of …
I like your ’style’ and the substance of what you say.
I NEVER fail to read, marvel and, most often, agree (completely) with your very well-conceived and exquitely well-written comments.
But, I also like Norske’s ’style’, thunderous as it may be be, (I swear, there is lightning there, sometimes, as well) and both you and I appreciate the pith and substance woven therein …
Our linguistic affectations, and we’ve ALL got those, may not be stylisticly ‘in’, but, considering the Orwellian assault upon our language these days, I find its use by all here, subtle and nuanced, or plain and clear, quite refreshing and in its diversity a rare pleasure indeed …
Not arguing, mind, just expressing my opinion …
This thread is getting better and better.
Not to engage in semantics, but ‘liberal’ for all the reasons you and tw3k have mentiioned and more which others over the decades have underscored, might well be moved ‘beyond’, bringing us to ‘progressive’ and its ‘vision’
(which, as yet, is murky and undefined, since doing so, would, apparently, be just too much ‘work’) might be the ‘way’ to ‘go’ …
But then, not much of anything has been going well, beyond destructiion and mayhem …
But, silly me, I have hope (is that one step before, ‘nothing left to lose’ …?
Anyhoo, I like what youse guys is talkin’ ’bout and wonder where you will ‘go’ with it …
I read other blogs, but have only commented here, actually am new to
all this, not a seasoned user of this type forum. The recovery of a
progressive foreign policy is a topic worth the time, it is the
external face of a progressivism at home. Steve Clemons Washington Note
is an excellent blog with links for this subject. The Clinton campaign
has poisoned the well in an attempt to sieze the brass ring, we will
all suffer for their personal ambition, win or lose. Other forums will
come along if this one dies, such is the nature of the net… it doesn’t
have to happen, but it could. I just hope Tuesday can slow the bleeding.
Looking forward, to Tuesday, merkwurdiglieber, looking forward … and to an even better Wednesday …
We need, in fact, we have to get through ‘this’ with our respect for each other intact and genuine.