Redd!

Evening Miss Christy – hope all is well Chez Harden Smith

Mahalo! I thought instead of waiting for someone else to get the conversation going on this, I’d just jump in with both feet. Although I may live to regret it, given how high tensions are over the next wave of primaries this week…

It’s good here. I’ve got a sleeping doggie sitting beside me, and The Peanut and I are watching Miyazake’s Spirited Away. :) How about you?

I was thinking about this issue over the weekend, and kept musing about how much I miss Steve Gilliard’s voice in all of this. SIGH

My 21 year old son is a big Miyazake fan – I think we have all of the films. I’m lifting weights to get in shape for the rest of the election season…I feel I will need all the endurance I can muster. Scratch the doggie’s tummy for me..and give The Peanut a squeeze.

It’s so distressing that in the year 2008, we still haven’t made this right. I’m ashamed of US.

Had lunch today with a friend who is a an evangelical christian and lifelong Republican who will be voting for Obama tomorrow. Turnout is supposed to be heavy, tried to early vote today but missed the deadline. No calls from Clinton supporters, at least 2 calls and one live canvasser for Obama. And about 5-1 mailers for Obama. Lots of low information rednecks in IN but I’m hopeful that Obama can hold his own.

I must say that the Goopers were shocked by Cazyoux’s victory in Lousy-anna, considering they spent millions in wrapping Obama/Wright around his neck… So, I think we’ve turned a significant corner, Christy…! ;-)

Two steps forward, one step back, and three steps sideways.

(back in my college days we called it the qualude stroll)

btw, if you don’t remember the Philadelphia speech that Obama gave, Pam has the YouTube at the link to her post above…

It was an historic speech

Good Late Afternoon All.
I wouldn’t say I’m uncomfortable when race steps into the discussion, but, then, here in LA, it’s fairly diverse.
We’re looking for a new church and one of the things on our list to look for is racial diversity. Just ’cause.
There is so much diversity where I live, that when I travel out of town and it gets too white, I get a little nervous.
(And Christy, thanks again for the new series — really loving it. I had brought an apple to the session to give to the teacher, but didn’t want to go OT…:)

I’ll take a crack at it.

* Do you believe that political consultants use subtle and overt racism to score points because it works, and that the end justifies the means? Is that good for our society, or does it matter?

Yes they do, and “white, blue-collar workers” is an example. It is terrible for the country.

* Do you think that some white people are uncomfortable when race comes up in the presidential race, from either campaign or surrogates? Why?

Because they’ve done stuff like vote against MLK day, for example.

* Do you think that the uncomfortability of discussions about racism and implicit bias causes a shutdown of honest dialog about it in the progressive movement?

No.

* Does the potential defensive reaction of blacks toward broaching the topic of race inhibit at all? What personal incidents inform that judgment – and is it fair to apply that to all black people?

People of color have a right to react however they react based on their own experience.

* Does the fear of being perceived as racist or patronizing outweigh the benefits of addressing honest questions we have about the effect of race?

No.

Oil futures surged to a new record over $120 a barrel today. Perhaps economic hardship will bring us all together to seek the end of Republic control of all parts of the Government. Though they are skilled at escaping responsibility, this all happened on their watch and they deserve the fallout.

I have to admit. When I first decided to support Barack, it had nothing to do with his skin color. Nothing.

Our primary is coming up in WV on the 13th. Obama is doing a lot of radio ads here, and both campaigns have teevee ones running (media is cheap here, though, so I’m sure that will only get heavier as we get closer). We can early vote here, but turnout thus far hasn’t been enormous that I’ve heard. Thought I’d call down to the courthouse later in the week and see what I can find out about the turnout issue.

It’s good to hear that turnout looks heavy in IN. That’s a huge deal, considering what a red state it is — especially if people are flipping to vote in the Dem primary. We’ve seen that in other left-leaning states as well, and voting for both Dem candidates, so I think that’s a good augur for change in November if that holds. (Although primary votes are notoriously fickle come November, so we’ll have to do a lot of work between now and then to keep them…)

Christy – one of the things that I find so distressing about everything right now – and there are so many things that it’s hard to get your arms around anything really – is that I have absolutely no clue as to what I can do about any of them except to write, email and phone my Congress folks. That is what is so infuriating about Cheney’s “So?” – to me, it’s like Stalin’s supposedly quote about the Pope: “And how many divisions does the Pope have?” How do we bring effective pressure to bear? What sort of true, effective strength do we as citizens have? It’s not like we have a history of showing up at the White House with flaming torches and pitchforks. But sometimes, especially with regard to the MSM and the false messages being thrown out there, I just want to scream…I really do not know what to do.

How do we start these conversations

great, great question. christy, thank you so much for asking it.

imo, we have to start by listening to people like rev. wright – people of good will who have spent a lifetime not just studying the issue but living it.

it’s particularly sad to me, because i think we (this country) may have started this conversation in the ’60s but 40 years ago a far more controversial figure than rev. wright was killed just as he was beginning to get to the heart of our divide. and yes, i’m referring to rev. king.

i wish we still had king to call us to justice. but we don’t and so we’re going to have to made due.

if we are too afraid to hear what rev. wright has to tell those of us who haven’t walked in his shoes – then i don’t think these conversations are ever going to get anywhere and we may loose yet another chance. this time by our own choice.

So glad you are enjoying it. I was so hoping that everyone would get a lot out of a more in-depth peek at some of the individual issues, and how they relate to the whole. The media never seems to really cover them, with the exception of a very few (like Jan Crawford Greenburg and others who try to work in a piece now and then on big picture law). We desperately need to have those conversations, too, and i’s just not getting done in the public square like it should be…so we decided to move it along ourselves.

Here’s a shot. I’ve told this story before but I recall, on the 25th Anniversary of the Fall of Saigon, there was a TV special that interviewed vets. There was a brother on who talked about how close he was with some white guys and how it saddened him that it would never be that way again. To be sure, I’ve had some really close black friends over the years, but not many. I regret it and really have no answers about how to change it.

Christy,
This is an important subject– too important to sweep under the rug.

I’m not surprised that the Republicans will play the race card.
But I am disappointed that Democrats (I’m looking at you, Bill & Hillary) would use it, too. Just listen to what they’re saying.

“Obama is unelectable.” Translation:
[1] Obama is Black.
[2] [Therefore,] White Blue Collar guys won’t vote for him [viz, NJ, PA, OH]
[3] Obama is the Black Candidate. Sure, he’ll get the Black vote. But that just shows that he’s the “Black candidate.” “Black Candidates” [viz, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton] can’t win.

This is disgusting. I am impressed that Obama is trying to transcend racial politics, and in a good way.

Bob in HI

“* Do you believe that political consultants use subtle and overt racism to score points because it works,”

Yes but not as much as it used to although the GOP is betting everything that it works as well as it did in the 80’s. I however disagree I think the backlash from the young will more than counter act this.

and that the end justifies the means? Is that good for our society, or does it matter?

The end justifies the means NO thats a basic philosophy question. Its bad for society after all anybody can decide for themselves when and for what the end justifies the means, that would be Anarchy. Does Anarchy matter? Well it would be an improvement over Bush

Yep, and I’m already starting to think about what video question regarding the Supreme Court might be for the General Debates.
We could slam them with a bunch of FDL ones…maybe, all with our dogs in the videos?

It is so red here sometimes it is ridiculous. But it motivated me to put an Obama sign in my yard to counteract the Dan Burton sign my neighbor has up. Local press coverage has been mostly pathetic, but there have been some shining lights. Lots of people are newly registered, and I have a hard time believing they are doing it to support a status quo candidate like Clinton or mcShame.

You know, I actually know several people here who are incredibly decent folks that I love to death, but who are having a hard time wrapping their brains around voting for Obama. And they won’t say it’s because he’s black, but I think that has a lot to do with the hesitation. People in my family have had similar issues, but I know their backgrounds and how they were brought up — and where the racial hang-ups come from in their lifetimes, so I know how much ignorance and inexperience plays into the mix for them, and I assume that is a lot to do with it for others as well here. We are not a very diverse state in WV — there are pockets of diversity, but not a lot of them. And folks here still haven’t reached the comfort level they ought to have.

Sometimes I wonder how I managed to avoid that growing up — but somehow, even in my family, I did — both with racial and with sexual orientation issues, as well as religious ones. But I deliberately tried to expose myself to ideas and cultures and anything that seemed new or different or “foreign” to my usual experiences because that’s how I thought I’d expand and learn more — and I read, a LOT. I think that probably had quite a bit to do with it, now that I think about it…

Definitely must have these questions addressed for both race and gender. I might also suggest that age is something that needs to be looked at. I have never felt so worthless in my life….and I am a 62 year old white woman who is recently retired after a successful business career and a subsequent legal career.

What bothers me is that both of the Obamas want us to “move on” while his speech a month ago said we need this dialog. I know times are tough for him, but he doesn’t do the subject justice by trying to avoid it now.

Difficult spot for him – and the nation to be in.

i remember obama’s speech very well. and, imo, it was a good speech. but in the world of speeches it was only great by comparison with other politicians of our era.

i strongly recommend rev. wright’s sermons – they are far, far more honest. and that makes them difficult, even painful, to hear. but if we want to have a real conversation – one that includes the experience of black americans as central to that conversation, we can not cut wright out of that conversation and attempt to silence him.

Good ones.

I’m also impressed that a huge number of Americans are proving that the racism is less prevalent than one would think by the way the media constantly categorizes the voters.

I was without my Air America today, so I listened to Limbaugh. He was talking about Bill Clinton introducing him to the mayor of Los Angeles. He said “So Bill Clinton comes over to the table with some guy, and I thought it was a Secret Service guy or a shoeshine boy.”
Words fail me. Lifetime achievement in the worst person in the world club.

My neighbors across the street decorated their lovely home with some patriotic bunting and put up an Obama sign over the weekend. I’m going to ask them if I can snap a pix for the blog and do an election in WV post for you all at some point…

What bothers me is that both of the Obamas want us to “move on” while his speech a month ago said we need this dialog. I know times are tough for him, but he doesn’t do the subject justice by trying to avoid it now.

Difficult spot for him – and the nation to be in.

excellent point.

do we move on because we fear the genuine conflict that an honest conversation will bring?

or do we draw the line and say no to putting it off any longer?

I have to admit that until Rev. Wright came along, I never noticed Obama’s skin color – or Hillary’s sex.

Now I’m afraid to say anything.

I earlier wrote about the so-called Archie Bunker voter phenomenon that Bloomberg news was touting as a dividing line in the Democratic party. I think it is a much more complex division that that convenient shorthand, but I have to wonder how we are ever going to cross all of these internal barriers if no one is ever willing to take them out and look at their own internal prejudices? How do we start these conversations — because we need to have them well before November.

As Jane wrote all the way back in January, these issues are going to go prime time, whether we are ready for them or not.

First, to give you my very uninformed non-expert opinion on starting these conversations before November, DON’T! They are not questions that can be answered in haste right before an election without the taint of election prejudice. Not possible, IMHO. And, no we do NOT need to examine these issues, nor is is possible to do so indepth before November.

To answer Jane’s concern, that the issues are going to go prime time regardless of “whether we are ready for them or not”. They are. That’s a given. Why put the Dems/progressives on the defensive? Find a way to put the opposition on the defensive. I think Obama (call myself a supporter now) has handled that as well, or better, than anything that the press and the opposition has ever thrown at Hillary. Count me as impressed that he didn’t cave on the obvious throw-a-bone-to-the-masses, that the proposed gas tax holiday promoted by Hillary and McCain really is. That took guts.

I have hope that many Americans are finally waking up to what is pandering to some of the people to get elected versus real governing is.

You know, I actually know several people here who are incredibly decent folks that I love to death, but who are having a hard time wrapping their brains around voting for Obama. And they won’t say it’s because he’s black, but I think that has a lot to do with the hesitation.

Obama has two strikes against him. One, bogus IMO, is his skin color. The other, genuine IMO, is that he’s got no record that matters for the office he aspires to. Make sure when you judge others you aren’t projecting something onto them that is not in them.

I thought the interview he did with Bill Moyers was very well done, and worth a watch, for a real conversation about the issues as he and others see them. There was a piece by Michael Powell in the NYTimes over the weekend about Wright and other ministers who know him and have been dismayed about the press coverage that is worth looking for as well — it’s not great, but it does at least give a mix of views.

Wright did not help himself by going from the measured conversation with Moyers to the ego-filled burst at the National Press Club. I’m still waiting for some clarification on the Obama remark the day after that on the fact that he and Wright had spoken at some point and that Wright knew how he felt about a number of the issues Wright was pushing, and that he wasn’t happy about it — that sort of “wink wink” treatment that Wright gave about Obama’s distancing remarks (”he’s just doing it for politics”) still bugs me in that context. But I haven’t gotten an answer as yet…

Personally, I couldn’t give 2 shits about Wright or anything that he said. But I think there are quite a few people who might have begun to dip their toe in the Obama water, and Wright brought up old stereotypes again and caused them to reconsider.

i miss his voice also, just turned a friend onto his archives last week. Here’s a link for those who don’t know much about the late, great Gilly

I don’t disagree with what Wright says, but, boy, how he says it bothers me a lot.

I grew up in Detroit in the 50’s and 60’s with a grandfather who was astonished that a AA was a driver on a DSR bus. I didn’t understand him. And I grew up never noticing the color of a person’s skin – I have and have had wonderful associates and friends of all “persuasions”.

So when I heard Wright’s horrible rants, I was…HURT. I felt like I was back in high school and heard that my friends were whispering nasty things behind my back. And all along, I thought they liked me.

I really don’t know where to go now. But I truly fear that race relations (and gender bias) has been set back 50 years because of this primary season. And I do not think that the Clintons are entirely to blame, by any stretch of the imagination.

Well if it helps I’m sure you have at least one Mexican friend:)

That’s true — a lot of the concern is his lack of national experience. And it’s a concern I share, especially on economic issues given the state of things, I have to say. But then I look at someone like Lincoln who didn’t have national experience either…and he managed to handle a Civil War…

I would like to see voters divided into four catagories. Under-informed, under-educated, well-informed, well educated. If voters were labled more truthfully, perhaps some of the under-informed, under-educated would defer to the opinions of the other groups and take a cue from them. When I don’t know something about an issue, I look to someone that has knowledge. Perhaps, if we labeled voters truefully, we could encourage them to do likewise.

Oh man, if only I could find Natividad Espinosa. I’ve tried everything I can and I’m pretty good at it. He was such a great guy, scared to death he was going to get hurt, not because of himself but because he had a baby.

I keep hearing that…but what record does Hillary have? Im not picking a fight but what record?
She voted for the war and wants to nuke Iran.

Have I told you lately how much I love your big ole heart? *g*

They both have downsides. Criticizing one doesn’t make the other pure as snow, eh?

Did you try the Salvation Army? (Here’s hoping…)

Lack of experience does not mean he is guaranteed to fail, but it does create a reason not to vote for him.

This primary has not set back race/gender relations. It has only put a spot light to show us that we are not post-racial (no matter how much we would like to believe — ex. gov’t/ media repsonse to Katrina) and that our discourse is still very much sexist.

In today’s world, it is the advisers that you surround yourself with. My problem with Hillary is that she has the old ’90’s team. Obama has a new generation of people. We need new blood. He may have the final say as president, but I bet he has more intelligent and informed people around him than the current occupant of the white house – ones that he will actually listen to.

Thanks.

I believe that a conversation has begun about race but whether it is an “honest” one I’m not sure about. There are so many assumptions that are made on both sides that we need to get rid of first – IMO. I have had many people say that they are surprised that I am so liberal because of where I am from. They hear my accent and seem to assume that I have racist feelings. That’s hardly fair but others make assumptions about AAs that are not fair either. It’s a very difficult question and I think will not be resolved in my lifetime but perhaps we have made a beginning.

* Do you think that some white people are uncomfortable when race comes up in the presidential race, from either campaign or surrogates? Why?

Heck Brown people are uncomfortable when race comes up. Why because I think we can win this one on ideas race is a distraction. Well the GOP race smears are a distraction.
I do not think that we have had a real discussion about race nationally in the MSM yet.

something else i want to mention that struck me in listening to rev. wright’s sermons – and that is when he spoke of women in our society he spoke with every bit as much passion and when he spoke of race.

personal disclosure – i’m a white woman.

it is not often i hear a man speak with such moral authority about issues related to sexism – and i don’t think i’ve ever heard anyone speak so clearly about both sexism and racism at the same time… and now, thinking further about it – it’s clear that wright’s analysis (on sexism, racism and also our foreign policy) is part of a greater whole that is based on a rejection of supremist thinking in all it’s manifestations.

It is very difficult to have a discussion about race or anything serious when we have media fixated on haircuts and lapel pins and when they caricature Jeremiah Wright and cast a blind eye on John Hagee.

I’ve been able to track down a couple of guys but not Nate. He was in LA but I know he wanted to move his family back to San Antone. I’ve looked over under sideways and down.

I’ve been wondering how much of this submerged feeling for so many people has bubbled up the the surface as a result of this primary — and the nudging that groups like the NC GOP are doing. Once that bubbles up, it can’t just dissipate immediately — and, frankly, we’ll all be better off if we deal with it in a meaningful way. But doing that before the general election is nearly impossible. So, what does that mean in terms of the prospects for a Democratic candidate? This really is the Karl Rove shit-stirring dilemma — once it’s out there, it’s out there. (The “Cokie Roberts paradigm” as Digby terms it.)

So now what in the hell do we do?

There was definitely a different Voice in the Moyers interview as opposed to the Press Club speech.
I think Peterr pointed out that Rev. Wright might have mistaken who his audience was at the Press Club.
Also, one was a measured pastor to pastor conversation and the other was a speech to a crowd.

The other place I made friends was on the basketball court. I had to quit about 10 years ago but I see guys around town and the connection is immediate. There’s something about the hoop that cuts through a lot of bullshit.

How sad I hope you find him maybe someone here could help.

The problem now is that you get afraid of what you’ll find out. . .gettin old.

Lack of experience does not mean he is guaranteed to fail, but it does create a reason not to vote for him.

The Wright controvery gave some white males an excuse not to vote for the African American without seeming to be racist. As for experience, McCain has experience out the gazoo and he is still an idiot. So I suppose it can work both ways.

***resisting the temptation to ask for a definition of “gazoo”***

“Lack of experience does not mean he is guaranteed to fail, but it does create a reason not to vote for him”

John Kennedy didn’t have much experience, either. And he screwed up at the Bay of Pigs on the basis of bad advice. But he learned, and got better.
LBJ had tons of experience. What did he do? Used the Gulf of Tonkin resolution to escalate (current language: surge) our involvement in Vietnam.

I don’t think JFK would have made the mistakes Johnson made. The Cuban Missile crisis showed the value of tactical sophistication; in that context, being a “fighter” would not have helped.

Bob in HI

Ditto. Wish there were a way to help you connect, Raven. (The Salvation Army is good at helping lost people re-connect with their past….)

The Wright controvery gave some white males an excuse not to vote for the African American without seeming to be racist. As for experience, McCain has experience out the gazoo and he is still an idiot. So I suppose it can work both ways

I have trouble with that analysis. Why would anyone need an excuse for something that is anonymous?

Aite I’ll run it up the pole and see who salutes it. I have all of our shipping orders with the “home of record” adress of next of kin, it’s not helped.

I don’t think that this country as a whole is ready for a ‘real’ discussion because it requires acknowledging wrongs done to other races and many people just don’t want to deal with genocide, stolen land, stolen lives, kidnapping, destruction of familes, destruction of whole societies, enslavement, rape, murder, etc.

I have always found it ironic that we won’t let Germany forget wha tthey have done and in fact expect them to apologize over and over for what they have done but when it comes to the sins of people here, there is no national discourse.

BTW, the last link — “the ties that bind” goes back to a post of mine from Saturday that has a couple of particularly good RFK YouTubes in it. In case you are in need of a balm for the spirit, they were a wonderful respite when I watched them and put that post together. Just thought I’d mention it.

And now, it’s bedtime for small Peanuts…brb…

JFK came from an upper crust family so voters felt different about him.

America as a nation is not very good at self-reflection.

http://www.usa-people-search.c…..n=ESPINOZA

http://www.usa-people-search.c…..ID=2028044

I’m not sure what McC is and I doubt that he knows himself. I am reading Cliff’s The Real McCain and it quite frankly is a little – or a lot – scary. McC has taken so many different positions that I think he has lost track of them.

I don’t think JFK would have made the mistakes Johnson made.

You have to read Halberstam’s “The Coldest Winter”. He has a great piece about JFK having created “they greatest lying machine in history” to hide the reality of Vietnam. He also joked about passing the war to the next dumb schmuck president!

True you might have changed he might have changed you both might find you don’t like each other anymore its a risk its your call.
Still I think the net helps people ignore race and judge people on ideas I have no idea who most of you are but I like this crowd I’m runnin with.

Thanks for your response Christy. I’m sure there are a lot of Americans (Democrat and Republican) who are having a hard time wrapping their brains around Barack. What I’ve found is, they’ll say, “He’s not experienced”, “He doesn’t stand for anything”, or “He’ll be assassinated”, so they won’t have to say, “He’s black”.

Employers/Landlords do the same thing with gays, lesbians, and blacks. They’ll say, “We rented it already” or they won’t return the phone call if they think the person sounds “different”.

Sucks.

By the way, Maine is very white (only 4% of our population is black/Latino) and when I was a little girl back in the 1970’s there was a black couple who lived up the street from us who owned St. Bernard dogs. I was always at their house wanting to pat their dogs and to talk with them. Again, I never saw the color of their skin and that has a lot to do with my parents and my upbringing. My parents would have been mortified if I said or did something racist to this nice couple. I have the same reaction when my son at times will repeat something he hears on television that has racist overtones. I become Linda Blair/Exorcist/Green-slime/Head-spinning-on-neck in an instant. ;-)

christy – i strongly recommend you to listen carefully to both of wright’s sermons if you have not already done so. i know it’s hard to imagine, but it’s quite possible that that it wasn’t about ego as you’ve described it – that to wright politics has very little value. i know white catholic workers for whom this is true – they see elections as a distraction. wright reminds me in many ways of them – perhaps because both of their religious traditions (as i understand them) are grounded in the basic premises of liberation theology.

i’m going to quote an earlier comment from hugh – because i think it is far and away the absolute best comment i’ve seen any where on this:

I don’t agree with several of the things Wright has said but I think the outrage like the controversy is manufactured. If you read or listen to more than a few snippets of what he is saying, it becomes very clear where he is coming from. He is deeply angry about injustice in this country and how we choose, or rather do not choose, to deal with it. I agree with almost nothing with regard to Louis Farrakhan but the thing that I see Wright sharing with him is that anger that America has failed to live up to its ideals. With our media degenerated to clownish infotainment, serious issues, serious discussion of them, anger at injustice are things to be avoided or ridiculed.

Yes, Wright could do what is politically expedient for Barack Obama but his whole training has been not to do that. The media want him to play the role of the whipping boy. Can you imagine how deeply offensive that is to someone like Wright whose whole view of the African-American experience over 4 centuries on this continent has been that of the whipping boy? I believe him when he says this isn’t about Obama. It is very much about him Rev. Wright, not in an egotistical kind of way but as one in which he refuses to play the role the media have assigned to him. How dare he not knuckle under to those he has spent his whole life opposing. How dare he not be the good n*gger and play the bad n*gger for us. How dare he.

Cool, thanks. We’s old but we ain’t 69 yet! I’ll follow up on the Texas stuff.

TCU, you underestimate the power of the bonds you forge under fire…! ;-)

I have trouble with that analysis. Why would anyone need an excuse for something that is anonymous?

But the discussion of why one voted for this or that candidate is not anonymous. People are asked all the time, Who did you vote for? Who are you going to vote for?

I was thinking more about being dead.

There’s one in El Campo too. *g*

Got it.

Angry Black Bitch had a great post along those lines the other day that I linked up in one of my blog-around pieces, too. I do think that is part of it — but I’m still bugged by the way Obama talked about that conversation, which is why I’m hoping to get some clarification (although I sincerely doubt it’s forthcoming…)

And now, I really have to get The Peanut into her jammies. Damn you guys, this is a really good conversation. brb…

And those little pipes we made from chicken bones!

Sorry

When I was attending university in Germany, I remember one of the students asking me how we americans deal with guilt. I asked her to elaborate and she told me how in germany, they teach the kids guilt-associated with WWII and the Holocaust. The ‘white’ americans killed native Americans, enslaved and bred Africans, etc. so there is guilt for those actions, right? When I told her that I had nothing to do with that and therefore have no guilt, she said she also was not guilty of what occured during her grandparent’s time but is still held responsible for what occured.

NP

Heh, what every is near at hand, eh? ;-)

Tweety…we have a black candidate with a chance to be president, we have a woman with a chance to be president, and we have a POW with a “good” chance to be president….

Ahem.

uh-oh, ‘what ever’…! *g*

I ask southern bigots all the time, will you allow rich people to use your racism to their benefit? I does give them pause.

I’d be curious how they teach about guilt in Germany, or do they just teach what they are guilty of?

for myself – when the issue of race comes up, i like to think about how other people are racist instead of doing the hard work of facing up to my own biases

…. one thing i’ve noticed recently during these discussions is that i automatically assume, unless i know differently, that everyone here is white like me. really, really embarrassingly small minded of me and something i obviously need to work on.

sorry you have to go, but many, many thanks for starting the conversation.

She gets it! now thats an honest conversation we should have about race. Forget guilt what do we do today about the actions of the past and today. How do we make the world better in regard to race.

field expediency

Was she talking about individual or collective/national responsibility?

You’ve given me lots to think about here.

Then there is the question whether we (I speak here as one of European origin) still benefit in some way from the injustices of the past.

Selise, thanks for saying this. You summed it up perfectly. Wright is who he is. He’s a passionate guy and understands what it feels like to be suppressed (just because he has a nice home today doesn’t mean he’s always lived like that…the poor don’t usually forget their roots even if they’re surrounded by riches), so by speaking out with force about women’s issues is no different than speaking out about what the blacks in our nation have had to endure.

I suppose Wright’s passion on the issues is like addiction: there are many kinds, but the treatment is the same for all (for the most part).

Nice turn of phrase, ES! ;-)

This is soooo kewl…Teflon John:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..liars.com/

JFK actually had a lot more experience than he is sometimes given credit for having; approximately four years in the USN, commander of a PT Boat, six years as a Congressman and 8 years as a Senator. Nixon was perceived as having more experience because of his time as VP even though he and Kennedy were freshman congressman together.

Not to mention the two books that Kennedy actually authored himself.

Beer cans and pin-on rank works in a pinch…!

I believe that a conversation has begun about race but whether it is an “honest” one I’m not sure about. There are so many assumptions that are made on both sides that we need to get rid of first – IMO.

One of the things that always surprises me is who is “Black.” I was surprised to discover that Lorita (Hatch Act? What Hatch Act?) Doan and Alison Stewart (sometime sub for Keith Olberman) not only are “Black”, but self-identify as such. Ours must truly be a racist society when women as light-skinned as they are feel enough racist heat that they self-identify as “Black.” I’ve seen White guys with a good tan who have darker skin pigmentation than Lorita and Alison. And what about Tiger Woods? Oh, I guess he, too, is “Black,” because somewhere in his family tree there was someone with African ancestry.

Anthropologists and sociologists now say that “race” is a social construct that has nothing to do with science. It has no objective meaning. Here in Hawaii, there is no majority anything. There are a zillion shades of brown, mostly derived from Asian or Hawaiian ancestry, but we do also have some “Blacks” and Hispanics, as well as a small number of American Indians. Most people are a mixture of three or more ancestries.

Maybe Obama and Tiger Woods can lead our country out of this nightmare of idiotic racial fears. I hope so.

Bob in HI

I’m afraid I do that too. I’ve been known to do a double-take when I meet someone I have spoken to on the phone and made assumptions about their race.

I, too, know people that won’t vote for Obama because he’s black. Some wouldn’t have voted dem anyway, so I’ll discount them. But some would have.. and his race is stopping them.
This is a problem that is scaring the hell out of me. And, as far as I’m concerned, Obama’s race speech wasn’t good enough. IMHO, he has to hit it straight on. He has to get up and say “To those of you who don’t know if you should support an African-American let me say…….” That’s more in line with JFK’s Catholicism speech.

True divide and conquer the fools are getting played they sell out their own self interest to blame a scapegoat and make someone else richer.

BINGO!

apply my own version of that here – pause indeed

ps – glad ((you’re ok,))) didn’t see you here right after the tornadoes and was tough to tell from maps two days later whether you had been affected.

I like the direct approach..)

IF, you had any rank!

Lost some shingles, but I am safe and sound. Thanks for thinking of me!

“JFK came from an upper crust family so voters felt different about him.”

Did anyone accuse him of being an “elitist” who didn’t understand the common man?

So who now stands accused of being an elitist? Is it the candidate with the least net worth of all the major candidates?

Bob in HI

Ooooh. Fantastic flick! I hadn’t realized I’d “misplaced” it until you mentioned it, but now I miss having it around to watch now and again. You have a little one with sophisticated tastes in cinema!

Show me a human being whose ancestry didn’t originate in Africa…

Oh yeah, except those “white people” who think they came from outer space…

LOL

bob – you should hear what wright had to say about woods (it’s wasn’t pretty) for playing on a golf course that discriminated against women.

this guy should put an end to any further discussion of ‘experience’

More so their complicity in Hitler’s rise to power, the laws that stripped jews of citzenship and everything they owned and the holocaust. Basically that they collectively as germans committed these acts and that they should have stopped it and could have stopped it but turned their backs. But nowadays there is a lot of pushback by the students because the people/generation that committed these acts are dead so why do they have to keep apologizing for something that they equally find horrendous.

Would so not work. Too many people (white people) don’t want to hear it).

Rev. Wright – good, bad and ugly:

good – practiced his core ministry in a true walk-the-talk fashion (all those tucc ministries must be doing SOMETHING all day)

bad – blatant statements of factually false claims and conspiracy theories, long ago de-bunked (i.e. U.S. Gvt. inventing AIDS)

ugly – it seems he’s rather secluded in his self-contained world, and there-by somewhat naive about which things he believes are real facts and which are conspiracies – now leading to bashing and ridicule as the cap of his life – too bad he didn’t already get through this years ago

So when I heard Wright’s horrible rants, I was…HURT. I felt like I was back in high school and heard that my friends were whispering nasty things behind my back. And all along, I thought they liked me.

it is extremely painful to be confronted by wright’s anger. but, imo, we have a responsibility to deal with it… and furthermore, i think with time it begins to permit a kind of healing process.

like having a bone set without anaesthesia.

That would only surprise you if you have a narrow idea of the phenotype of blacks. Considering that during slavery, biracial people were still enslaved and thought of as inferior and moreso excepted by blacks than whites expalins much of the self identification as black.

i say all this as a latina of african descent who looks racially ambiguous. I could never run around and say I’m white because my skin color says differently and many whites would point that out. Sometimes you can pass. There are many stories of blacks who because of their ‘white’ phenotype passed for white, married whites and had children all without anyone ever finding out their secret. Now neither Tiger, Obama, Lurita or Allison could EVER say they weren’t black, you can see that they aren’t.

First we have to get through this primary and the GE. Then, hopefully, someone with some trust and honesty and stature and name recognition can put forward a way to keep talking. And no, it cannot be Barack Obama. He’s already tainted.

We need to talk on all levels, too. We need local and regional and national discussions and reports and debates and…well, honesty and effort.

I’m tired even thinking about it.

* Do you believe that political consultants use subtle and overt racism to score points because it works, and that the end justifies the means? Is that good for our society, or does it matter?

Yes, they do, and it’s bad for this country.

* Do you think that some white people are uncomfortable when race comes up in the presidential race, from either campaign or surrogates? Why?

Yes, some white people are uncomfortable, usually because they have racial issues they haven’t faced.

* Do you think that the uncomfortability of discussions about racism and implicit bias causes a shutdown of honest dialog about it in the progressive movement?

Sometimes.

* Does the potential defensive reaction of blacks toward broaching the topic of race inhibit at all? What personal incidents inform that judgment – and is it fair to apply that to all black people?

Defensive? That’s a loaded word. See my previous answer; I think it’s often white people who are pre-emptively defensive. I don’t have any personal incidents illustrating the other side – I don’t think I’ve ever made an African-American feel defensive while discussing race, and as a consequence, I have no fear of discussing it.

* Does the fear of being perceived as racist or patronizing outweigh the benefits of addressing honest questions we have about the effect of race?

Hell no.

I will say I discussed the primary in an African-American household and was struck – though not exactly surprised – at how deeply they seemed to feel the Clintons’ willingness to use race as an issue in the campaign (sample (paraphrased) comment: “Hillary was mugged”).

The NYTimes had an article I think Saturday about republicans switching parties in order to vote in the Democratic primary. I don’t have the link. They also said the republican vote was more or less split between Obama and Hillary. I have no idea where they got their information. I think most republicans are following Rush Limbaugh and his Operation Chaos and voting for Hillary. Her “victories”in Ohio, Texas, and Penna are suspect. Republicans are all too good at fixing elections and insofar as lots of them continue to like George Bush, they are crazy, a nasty combination. I do not see how anyone can vote for Hillary who seems as likely to bomb Iran as GWB if not more so.

First we have to get through this primary and the GE

there is always a reason to put it off. this is one of the things mlk discussed in his letter from the birmingham jail.

Was he from NM?

CNN’s Roberts declares a Wright Free Zone interview, because it is old news.

Problem is, though, it will become news again when the repugs say so:

“All of the questions that are currently out there on this have been asked and answered,” he said.

It doesn’t mean he’s closing the book on the issue, Roberts said. If Obama becomes the Democratic nominee and Republicans criticize his relationship to Wright, he’ll likely return to it, he said.

Even though he ended his relationship, his relationship is still news, even months from now.

Hurts. My. Head.

I keep hearing that…but what record does Hillary have? Im not picking a fight but what record?
She voted for the war and wants to nuke Iran.

Ahh, and the “putting the Middle East under our nuclear umbrella”.

Sometimes your choice is to “go with the devil you know…or the more sensible person you don’t”.

Ya all need to digg this for Christy

Lorita and Allison are rare examples of people who have chosen to identify themselves with the historically non-priveleged race in this country. I suspect Doan does it for “political advantage” and I wonder when she started doing so. But that’s one of the many calculations that people make. The far more common tendency was for individuals who had “white features” to cross to white…when the SOCIETAL values were to shift things the other direction. America has been obsessed with the “one drop rule”…which is why Colin Powell, Obama Barack, Tiger Woods, Malcolm X, Franco Harris, Lou Campanella, etc. are defined by society and their peers as “Black”. They are mixed “race”, and there actually are no “pure races” genetically, there is no “racial homeland” (no centrad from which a particular group we define as a race emerged from…the same sort of mixing has been going on for millenia.

But the social idea of race is a very powerful one. And it results in tragedies like this.

Woman Who Fought Mixed Marriage Laws To Supreme Court Dies

Mrs. Loving and her husband had to cope with this in 1967!!! It was still LAW that people couldn’t legally intermarry in Virginia until I was in High School! And most people in Virginia voted that law in or certainly didn’t feel an urgent need to revoke it. I don’t recall there being any major protests against it. The American Red Cross in the South refused to mix their blood banks for blacks and whites until the mid-1970’s! I know this sounds silly but white people thought getting “black blood” would impurify one. The Red Cross knew better, of course. but they basically went along with it rather than to try and educate people about their prejudices.

I’m heartened when I see that 25% of White Democrats voted for Obama in places like Mississippi. That’s a massive shift compared to what it would have been 40, or even 20 years ago (likely about 5%), and maybe that portends that many people are shifting in their conciousness. But we have a long way to go. Like the Red Cross people are willing to “go along” with others racial prejudices and actually cave into them…either because it advantages THEM (or their favored candidate), or because not doing so may mean having to get people to struggle with the issues of race.

Obama won Texas. Hillary won the Primary, but lost the Caucus. And ultimately Obama came out with about 6 more delegates than Clinton in the State.

for political advantage? you base that on what? Wow. I’m going to exit this thread because some of the stuff being thrown around as to why people dientify themselves as black or whatever is….wow.

identify

OK but I still think Rush Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos, which strikes at the heart of democracy, has more to do with her wins than anyone cares to admit. It would be easy to count the number of repubs who switched, just compare last year’s registration list with this years democratic list. That doesn’t tell you how they voted. Apparently the number of repubs who switched was substantial and it is substantial in Indiana and South Carolina.

Just also wanted information that backed up this statement as well:

The far more common tendency was for individuals who had “white features” to cross to white

as I know the opposite to be true. some did pass but others chose not to and it may have been nothing more than the belief that being black was not necessarily a bad thing

In response to cinnamonape @ 130 (show text)

Just also wanted information that backed up this statement as well:

The far more common tendency was for individuals who had “white features” to cross to white

as I know the opposite to be true. some did pass but others chose not to and it may have been nothing more than the belief that being black was not necessarily a bad thing

My first wife was half Navajo and half “White”. Her parents strategy was for her to “cross to white,” so they made a point of not teaching her any Navajo (language). The result? Lots of identity confusion. Back on the Rez she gets left out because she can’t speak Navajo, but for the last 20 years the “White” academic world has rewarded her for being a female Native American (who happens to be competent.) If she fully “crossed to White,” she would lose the gender/race identification that has been an advantage to her.

The point here is that no matter what the identification, people with minority race backgrounds usually are made acutely aware of any stigma associated with one part of their ancestry or another, and know from first hand experience the biased behavior that can result.

Bob in HI

What I have an issue with is the underlying assumption that people’s indentification is based upon some hierarchy of better and worse or that they are biracial to begin with (I look at someone like Vanessa Williams. She is not biracial but both her parents are light skinned african americans). Do you know for a fact that people like Doan are even biracial?

The point here is that no matter what the identification, people with minority race backgrounds usually are made acutely aware of any stigma associated with one part of their ancestry or another, and know from first hand experience the biased behavior that can result.

You have this based upon what? I’m sorry but the experience of your ex does not reflect the experience of the rest of us. If you want to offer some data to bolster this, I’d be interested in looking at it.

I left out this part that i was commenting to as well:

My first wife was half Navajo and half “White”. Her parents strategy was for her to “cross to white,” so they made a point of not teaching her any Navajo (language). The result? Lots of identity confusion. Back on the Rez she gets left out because she can’t speak Navajo, but for the last 20 years the “White” academic world has rewarded her for being a female Native American (who happens to be competent.) If she fully “crossed to White,” she would lose the gender/race identification that has been an advantage to her.

Whatever. my true issue with both you and cinnamon’s comments were the assumptions that had to be true in order for your statements to be true. until people at least acknowledge their assumptions that they have about race and different races just may not be true, a true discussion about race is not and can not happen

True. Also, a pervasive belief about being good is a huge problem as far as “seeing ourselves as we are, rather than as we imagine ourselves to be.”

It isn’t something a person could do in time to affect the election, but I have heard of an approach that seems to work tolerably well to help people break down impediments to communication about race and other concerns.

Years ago, in a sociology textbook, there was reference to an interesting study.

Thirty-six women were recruited for the project and separated into groups of twelve. Each group was selected to grapple with particular divisive cultural concerns. One group was composed of six Jewish women and six Christian. Another had six lesbians and six straight women. And yet another had six black women and six white.

Each group met weekly on an alternating basis. One week the entire dozen would convene. On the following week the two halves of the group would meet separately. Everyone who applied to be in the project was required to participate for two full years.

The study results were encouraging. Participants reported that they had made progress in understanding the concerns of the other differently-situated women.

Does anyone besides me think it significant that Obama wins causus states while Hillary wins primaries? I’ve never been involved in a caucus so there’s a good chance I don’t know what I am talking about, but caucuses seem more open and less supportive of repub skuldugery. I really believe Hillary owes her success to Rush Limbaugh.