How do you know you aren't going to a doctor who tortured for the Bushies? If someone in your family is choosing a therapist - or you are helping them choose - how do you know you aren't choosing a therapist who went to work and helped torture people? How do you know if the nurse, EMT, or pharmacist you may depend on to ease your pain - or for your very life - wasn't part of a torture team? Well, if they served with the US military since 2001, there's no way to know.
As we're learning in looseheadprop's comprehensive series on the Yoo torture memo, the Bushies' moral depravity has poisoned officials up and down the chain of command in the White House, the Department of Justice, the Department of Defense, and the armed forces. Acting under orders, Americans in uniform and American civilians have been (and continue to be) participating in war crimes and crimes against humanity - no matter how much UC Boalt Law School Professor John Yoo and other little Eichmanns of the Bush Reich may pretend otherwise.
As looseheadprop's recent posts describe, the Bushies' depravity has also spread out to poison many in the healing arts. Physicians and psychologists have collaborated in the "enhanced interrogation" torture of detainees in America's gulag for the new millenium.
At an interrogation center called Camp Na'ma, where the unofficial motto was "No blood, no foul," one intelligence officer testified that "every harsh interrogation was approved by the [commander] and the Medical prior to its execution." Doctors, in other words, essentially signed off on torture in advance. And they often didn't inspect the victims afterward. At Abu Ghraib, according to the Army's surgeon general, only 15% of inmates were examined for injuries after interrogation.
At Abu Ghraib (and elsewhere) "medics" witnessed the aftermath of the gruesome torture military physicians "signed off" on, and by keeping silent, collaborated with the torturers. At Gitmo, "medics" force-feed hunger strikers, reportedly using the same feeding tube on multiple detainees in sequence. This gross violation of sterile technique is the best possible way of spreading HIV, hepatitis, and other deadly viruses from one detainee to another.
They used my feeding tube for another man last Monday [February 18]. This, even though they have marked the boxes for each tube. I have been getting a sore larynx, maybe from the infection of another person using my tube.
At Abu Ghraib, a US army pathologist signed what appears to be a false death certificate - effectively concealing death by torture.
Apparently without doing an examination, and according to the documents, without performing an autopsy, the pathologist Luis A. Santiago wrote that the man had died in his sleep. [snip]An Iraqi forensic pathologist who took the body over from the US armed forces confirmed to Spiegel TV in Baghdad that he diagnosed definite torture marks on the body of the deceased. In addition, photos of the deceased confirm that contrary to the US documentation, an autopsy had been performed on the man. The scars on the torso indicate that Western doctors did the autopsy. [snip]
...Even a layman can easily recognize the obvious effects of violence on the pictures of the body: Large, dark bruises that could come from beatings can be seen on both sides of the body. On the wrists and ankles there are bruises, which presumably date back to many days of captivity. There are bruises from beatings or other forms of violent impact on the back. Other lacerations on the upper body point to injuries which can hardly be called "natural".
Accessory after the fact to murder by torture? Or "merely" accessory after the fact to war crimes?
I don't know - I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a doctor.
I do know that my "colleagues" who collaborated in torture and war crimes are monsters. Do you want these ghouls "caring" for your loved ones?
At Gitmo (as well as in the Naval Brig in South Carolina), detainees in the Bush gulag have reportedly been given psychotropic drugs. Add pharmacists to the list of collaborators.
The list of crimes and collaboration is at best a glimpse of the atrocities in the Bush Torture Archipelago. Today we've no way of knowing the full list of sites - Abu Gharaib, Gitmo, Bagram, Diego Garcia, and the Naval Brig in South Carolina are the hells we know of - what CIA and DOD "black sites" have we never yet heard of? Even when all the torture sites are known, we still won't know precisely what atrocities were committed there. Nor will we know which professionals in the "healing arts" collaborated with the Bush Reich in war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I am very concerned about having cancer. I have had blood in my urine for a long time.....they have had seven positive tests for blood in my urine. [After a first negative scan for kidney stones], they did a second scan with a tracer in the blood. This time, they did not tell me the results for two months.
Again, I was left to worry about what might be wrong with me. Again, eventually a doctor came to see me, a black male, about 40 years old, clean shaven, in a uniform without rank on it. He saw me for only give minutes. He began decently, but then got rather hostile. He told me the test was negative, meaning that there was no kidney stone. "From my experience," the doctor said to me, "I think it's cancer."
They then said that the next time a doctor would be coming with the appropriate expertise would be in May. Nobody would be coming before that, and he might not come even then. "You will leave me worrying about this for months?" I asked. "I don't have the necessary equipment," said the doctor. He apparently thought the prisoners were not as important as the soldiers in his care. "I don't mind if you suffer or not," he said. "It's not my problem. I'm not here for you." He left.
So when Dr. Torture comes marching home again, how will know him - or her?
Professional identity is a start, but not enough. We know that at least some military psychologists (PhD's) publicly support psychologists' participation in torture. To their lasting shame, the American Psychological Association's "leaders" failed to outright condemn this - though the recent elections in the APA show the rank-and-file oppose their colleagues' collaboration. In contrast, official organized medicine (the home of MD's and DO's) has flatly condemned physicians' participation in torture.
But that doesn't mean psychologists are "the problem" and physicians and osteopaths are "OK". Both groups - psychologists and physicians - have followed orders and collaborated with the torturers. Pharmacists obviously have - so too have "medics" in the armed forces.
As we all know, America's "leaders" have their own army of pet attorneys who will grovel and contort to justify any atrocity President Bush The Frog Torturer desires to inflict on a nation or a person. Rank upon rank of bemedalled "experts" will rise up from their Beltway crypts to tell us President Torquemada is right and just - so we must obey. And servile cynical profiteers in the media - "news" people and the writers and actors for "24" chief among them - have grown wealthy building echo-chambers for the crypt-dwellers.
So what can we do?
A lot. Hospital by hospital, county by county, state by state - we are the antidote to the poison the Bush Reich introduced to the healing arts.
And we have a lot of treatment options.
The biggest is state licensure. In the end, licensure is a political process - state reps tell the state medical board what to do. In California, the Legislature got so disgusted with my theater of the medical arts - psychotherapy - that they outlawed psychotherapists from having significant social involvement with clients. The CA medical board will also sanction docs (including loss of license) for having business relations with patients. No CA law currently prohibits licensure of physicians and other health professionals who collaborated in torture....but the Legislature passes lots of laws every year. This will be one more.
Every health care system I've ever worked in demanded that I give my entire professional work history - and they checked it out. This holds true for academic teaching hospitals, private hospitals, county hospitals, outpatient clinics. And they demand the same of other license providers: psychologists, nurses, pharmacists, EMT's, and the like.
These histories ask if I've ever been arrested, convicted, etc. I've never been asked if I tortured or been party to torture - but any health care system that wishes can add that.
Any state or city or county can refuse to employ or provide their public funds to health professionals who've tortured or assisted torturers - and demand all seeking compensation from a given system to attest they never have never collaboratored with torture or torturers.
Any academic medical center can deny employment to tortures or torture collaborators - as can any other health care system. As UC's Boalt School of Law is finding, the consequence of employing torturers - much less giving them tenure - are severe, and inexorable.
And any consumer choosing new health care providers (if they have a choice) can ask if the provider served in the armed forces during the Bush Reich - and then ask if the provider is a torture collaborator.
Docs didn't used to lose their licenses for drunk driving - now they do. That change came from public pressure.
While the Boy Frog-Torturer sits in the Oval Office and "no table" Nancy waggles her gavel, we may not be able to make the collaborators - and worse - that pass for our "leaders" to stop the torture.
Coming together as individuals, we can make the healing arts a no-go zones for torturers and those who collaborated with them.
Will some of the docs and psychologists and medics just lie? Sure. And - just like the immigrants who lied when they denied complicity in the Nazi Reich - they'll ultimately be found out. With the CIA and FBI knowing a lot of Bushie secrets, we'll have the tools to know who lied about torture much sooner than we had the tools to detect a lot of the now-elderly Nazis.
So the torture docs lied - big deal? Well, in CA and other states, significant acts of deception in licensure (or hospital privileges) are themselves ground for loss of license. And each state shares the "defrocked" list with the other states.
Will this stop the torture today? Nope. I wish it would.
At the least, these efforts - and others like them - will empower us to sanction the torturers and the collaborators. In moving to exclude the torture docs from the hospitals and clinics we pay for - and from laying hands upon us and our loved ones - we reclaim our common humanity.
Nuremberg established "just following orders" is no excuse. We can set ourselves apart from the "Good Bushies" who even now support torture and other crimes of humanity - and remind my colleagues that physicians were also convicted of war crimes.
Or we can do nothing - stand by passively and let our families and kids depend on the mercy and ethics of the "little Mengeles" who collaborated with the Bush Reich in torture and crimes against humanity.
I know what I'll do. Hope you'll join me. Please call you state reps and state medical board. Tell our servants when Dr Torture comes marching home again - the doc will have to find other work.
The local slaughterhouse is always looking for a few good sadists.
[photocredit: sitemarca]
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first do no harm?
I agree with you Kirk. It shouldn’t need to be said that torture has no place near those who practice the healing arts. I had to write that sentence over and over: it is a crazy time we live in, when torture and healing arts can be put in one sentence.
WTF, died in his sleep…?
By the way, the APA elections aren’t over, by a long chalk. But Steven Reisner, who has been fighting the good fight for years now, did win the first round of balloting. (Election is in October. A big fight is anticipated. There’s beaucoup bucks to be had in military grants, and the status quo in the APA ain’t backing down without a fight.)
Thanks for this post.
Doctor! Tell it like it is! I am just so ashamed, I just don’t feel like an American any longer-or maybe I do (after reading a little Howard Zinn).
BTW doesn’t that move it into the realm of ‘Major Internal Organ Failure’, the one line Yoo professed to be illegal…? Jez asking… 8-(
Excellent post.
Hi folks - as Laura says, this is a crazy time. I don’t have words for my sadness about America’s descent from a nation and society that publicly deplored torture to a nation (and society) in which so many avowedly support it. [Much less a nation where millions eagerly await torture as entertainment on their weekly fix of “24″.]
When did such conduct become acceptable? What country am I in, anyway? I hear it called “the United States of America,” but this evidence calls that into dispute.
Laura, thanks so much for your gentle correction of my error on the APA elections, I’ve finally found a candidate I can endorse: Resiner for President!
Doc, I think the following sentence lost a couple of words somewhere along the way.
Great post Doc, but a very scary one though. It’s kind of unnerving that there are individuals in our country with this secret inside them and could be part of our community.
I bet WWII Germany had this kind of psychological terror too.
*sigh* my country sucks. I’m working to change its suckiness but it still sucks
‘Psychology’, which once held the promise of truly being of genuine use in the human quest for health and understanding, has belittled, and bespoiled itself, perhaps beyond redemption, and worthy practitioners, such as yourself, and humanity in general shll pay the price unless the profession can find its soul.
I hate to be so stark in my appalled judgement, Laura, but this ‘crisis’ for the ‘profession’ puts all of us who care in the same position, in essence, as the DC Madam, with just enough rope …
Thanks dakine01 for your careful reading.
That should have been:
While the Boy Frog-Torturer sits in the Oval Office and “no table” Nancy waggles her gavel, we may not be able to make the collaborators - and worse - that pass for our “leaders” to stop the torture.
I will ask the mods if they can do a bit of corrective surgery.
I’m imagining Bush Nazis delivering babies in the US. Scary to think about.
I say a great bumper sticker the other day; “I love my Country… I hate my Government!” ;-)
Well, then, here’s some good news: you really only have to worry about a Bush Nazi delivering your baby if you can afford the coverage to start with.
(I’m still waiting for proof that she killed herself. She warned that she might be killed, you know, and that it might look like suicide.)
The APA may find that, if they fail to change, they will become an association for state apologists, while others form a new and better society. (Check out the org: psychologists for social justice).
Our civil society is better than our government. I truly believe this.
I only read it about five times trying to figure out what was missing or how it fit together before giving up. :})
Kay, you’re bringing up an excelelnt point. State-based torture serves political power precisely by spreading fear of torture throughout the civilian populace, deterring participation even in peaceful, non-violent protest and political action.
oops - sorry dakine01 :{
And TeddySF, thanks for being here and your kind assessment!
I agree, about the question of suicide, but I think the ‘profession’ MUST decide where its heart and soul truly lie.
It is with humanity or with power?
THAT is the question.
There are several other ‘professions’ which likewise, at this late date, must choose …
Those who practice the ‘law’ among them.
Yep. Psychological terror is what fascists thrive on and it’s how they control the populace. Scary times we’re living in, but that hasn’t stopped me from participating in protests and calling & yelling at my representatives. Unfortunately, there are a lot who are scared.
If you think about it, though, those who participated in torture over the last few years will at some point come home to the states. These individuals could be working for our local fire/police/rescue or could even be the person changing the tires on our car! It’s a weird thought…one that I hadn’t thought about until your post.
Abu G get a job yet?
thank you Kirk.
and Drs. Torture and other medical and nursing “professionals” should also face war crimes tribunals along with lots of other folks.
Good point, EvilDrPuma, and it means the poor of our country will continue to be ‘tortured’ by these assholes.
Yes. I am sure that many attorneys feel as ashamed of their profession as we are of ours.
Always good to see you, David. I’m leaving now, but hope to ’see’ you again soon.
thanks again, Kirk.
Goodnight everyone.
my sentiments exactly
but there are some folks that aren’t gov’t related that add to the general overall suckiness as well. i talked to a few today while phone banking. It really is true, stupid burns.
A bumper sticker I saw today:
“Piss on the Liberals, Get A Gun”
Nice, huh? Spit.
How about Yoo?
Or Addington?
Or Mukasey?
Or Roberts?
Or Scalia?
Or Thomas?
Many questions, few good answers.
The profession needs to do MORE, and they must know that …
‘Nite, Laura.
Nite nite Laura. I’m out too. Nite all!
Excellent post, Doc! I’ll have nightmares now. Thanks. ;-)
G’Nite, Kay …
Aloha, Laura!
Aloha, Kay!
The really horrifying part of this is the ability of doctors to “enhance” torture through the use of pharmaceuticals and techniques. I know from experience (illness, not torture) that when pain becomes too much to bear, you (mercifully!) lose consciousness, but doctors know how to keep people awake, no matter what. That was the horror that was done to the some DEA agents in Mexico (?) about ten years ago, a horror I’ve never been able to get out of my mind. And, don’t forget what dentists can do, too.
Why John Yoo has not been disbarred for simple incompetence I’ll never know. Anyone who can so misread the Constitution and case law should be ousted from ABA. And any medical professional who acts in anyone’s interest other than the patient’s, in any way whatsoever, should also have their license yanked.
Of course, that posits that we live in a rational and ethical world, a reality that seems to be fast receding from memory.
In changing the body politic of medicine to wall off and expel the torture virus, the state medical boards will be a central line for our efforts.
The FSMB (Federation of State Medical Boards) is the official association for the state medical boards.
Hmmm. “integrity of health care”. Even based in Dallas, I’m betting the FSMB will want to be seen to oppose licensing torturers.
To find your state’s licensing board for MD’s and DO’s, doc board has this nifty linky.
Yoo, Addington, Mukasey, not looking too bright, as Alberto’s situation suggests…
Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, posh!
;~P
So what? Doctors have long collaborated in torture ask:
The doctors who worked for the SS.
The doctors who worked for the KGB.
The doctors who worked for Pinochet.
The doctors who worked directly for the Apartheid regime in South Africa.
The doctors who worked for and still work for the Israeli army.
The doctors who worked for and still work for the various Mukhbarat services.
The doctors who worked for Savak.
Medical complicity in torture is at least as old as the hippocratic oath……
here’s the elephant in the room;
for every bit of information you might have gathered through torture you have lost ten
the information is not actionable, there is no quality to it, you waste assets pursuing those false leads and you loose the real leads you would have gathered had you not used torture
in addition to this, for every person we torture we turn ten who were moderates into radicals, we turn those who were radicals into heroes among the people
we turn every friend, every relative and every person those tortured know into enemies of this country
it is bizarre these facts are not repeated by democrats and progressives
the purpose of torture is not to gather information, you get less information, you waste assets tracking worthless information down and you loose much more information you might have gathered that you could have acted
the pupose of torture is to instill fear in the populace, to create unrest to drive insurgents and enemies
when you want unrest, when you want your populace to fear the government you use policies of torture
that’s the very reason, it is the only reason
how on earth could bush have “won the hearts and minds of the Iraqi’s” when they know he directs torture toward their populace
the answer is he couldn’t possibly win their hearts or their minds and he knew it, the answer is they wanted the insurgency
all too true.
(hi mfi– hope all is well with you and yours.)
*standing on chair clapping*
thank you, kirk
G’nite Laura and Kay - thank you both for joinng us here and for your thoughful comments.
ANd sorry about the nightmare - I don’t know how to describe the waking nightmare our Armed Forces/Security Services and their collaborating medics have created without disturbing all of our rest.
Joy Behar is doing a fabulous job on Larry King tonite… Larry aired a clip of Joy confronting McInsane on what differentiates him from Shrub… John was hemming and hawing…! ;-)
markfromireland, those observations are all true - and the physicians’ participation in all those acts was unforgiveable.
I think gangrape is unforgiveable in the present, even though it happened in the past.
I can’t stop the past gangrapes, and I can’t change physicians’ past acts.
I can - and will - do whatever is possible to oppose and hamper the current torture docs. Hammering them on the consequences when they leave the military and return to civilian life is one effort.
Should you wish to join in opposing and preventing current heinous acts by docs collaborating with US forces, I look forward to reading your constructive suggestions here.
perris: beautifully said, I’m going to “borrow” your thoughts, but with a slight change: “loose” becomes “lose”
;~P
Erdla and the grandchildren are doing well. Du is with his regiment and as we have no news of him he’s presumably alive and well. I’m getting my first solid meal in days tomorrow and believe me (no offense) I am looking forward to it as some battleaxe of a nurse with a protein bomb in a bag is no substitute for food or any other pleasure come to that.
Howdy, Ma’am! I used that new found knowledge today…! *g*
mfi, hope that first solid meal is tasty and your recovery speedy….
It seems that at the most basic the doctors involved have been involved in falsifying records such as a death certificate, or cause of illness/injury report. This is a misapplication of their scientific and medical training. Lying or deceptions of such official certified documents constitutes perjury. And when one acts to allow or continue a course of abuse or mistreatment one is violating the Hippocratic oath. One must do what is necessary to stop such mistreatment.
That just seems SO BASIC. When one agrees to participate by seeing a patient that individual becomes ones “employer” -regardless of who is supplying the cash. One’s patient is NOT the CIA or Department of Defense.
Wow, Mark! I hope ya get well soon, I wasn’t aware that you were in a hospital…! 8-(
nicely done, ct - glad i was able to help ya out
When you suspect it you investigate it rigorously. When you discover it you punish it rigorously and I mean rigorously it’s not enough to strike them off, not enough to imprison them, you make their lives hell by treating them with complete contempt until the day they die. And by the way you strip their assets all of them so that they die on the dole when they evetually get out of jail.
Good night, Laura.
An interesting paper on this topic in JAMA
Complicity in Torture by Physicians
mfi, i love those solutions. from your keyboard to my medical cooleagues’ ears.
Nighters!
Along with many members of the media, I hope, who have chosen to be complicit in these war crimes.
Another excellent and disturbing post, Kirk. More of the same, please. Nothing like telling it straight: War Crimes.
Eventually, these people will have to pay.
boa noite, Laura and Kay
I do hope you is correct.
But the ‘poshers’ may yet bring this country to its knees …
My prayers are with Du and continuing best wishes for your recovery…
(I am grinning like a fool at your apt description of post procedure ‘care’. I was once in a hospital in DK and when I was able to eat they gave me salty sweet kaernemaelk suppe with raisins– ye gads!)
Dru sends her best to you!
cinnamonape, thanks so much for that citation. the abstract alone is chilling.
Torture is an act of Terrorism.
It’s very simpe Kirk torture is the ultimate betrayal of the trust placed in medical personnel - more so even than murder. The retribution has to be appropriate. The various positive measures such as instilling rigorous ethics are essential. But my view of humans and what we get up to tends to be a bit bleak so I tend to the belief that what keeps honest people honest is fear of getting caught.
Of course, I should admit that paper sort of suggests that nothing has changed EXCEPT for the nationality of those physicians doing the torture. How are these US doctors much (or any different) than the ones that cooperated with Saddam? In fact, given the fact that the American doctors could report to the media and walk away from the torture and not face death it seems that the morality of the US Medical Establishment involved in this are far lower.
Erdla stopped by this morning to tell us that the hospital in sadr city had been bombed. many thanks for that.
Likewise.
I wonder if JAMA will update/re-evaluate it since the Americans have been there…!
They’re worse any doctor or anyone else who didn’t collaborate with the Mukhbarat knew what would happen to them and their family. That is not (yet) the case with your military.
And folks, I’ve forgotten my manners: welcome and thanks to CTuttle, angie, nonplussed, EDP, DWBartoo, Dr Bong, sisyphus, perris, CarolynU - sorry I haven’t directly said “hi” and thanksed you for coming.
Our wonderful backstage crew at the Lake tells us that for every commenter, we have hundreds who may be reading - over 1,500 in this last hour.
We’ll all need medical care someday - or will love someone who does.
For those reading but not yet commenting, please jump into the Lake to share your feelings: How would you feel about a torture doc caring for your family?
I cried in continued rage when I read about it this am.
And the US blamed the Iraqis again.
Let’s hope so…it seems ironic that US military and intelligence associated physicians were doing this type of thing (without actual amputation) in concert with interrogators under the very noses of this team of interviewers. The irony is in that last statement. When one considers that no Iraqi law would have put any physician employed by the Pentagon or CIA (or even US contractor) under any sort of legal threat it sounds pretty hollow.
Veterinary news. Racehorse. Why do we treat animals more respectfully than we treat humans?
yes.
Kind of said that Mark.
Do military doctors take an oath that is different from civilian doctors?
mark, i fully agree with you - and i appreciate your looking down the trajectory of required responses. tonight i began with diagnosing the problem - and asking our readers to imagine having the torture docs come home to their local doc’s office - in the white coat.
yet that act of imagination - assessing personal consequences for those us safe here at home in the US - is just the first step of what i hope to see to see. criminal prosecution, confiscatory civil suits (if not confiscatory fines) and total social ostracism is what i hope to see visited upon the health professionals who collaborated - or collaborate - with torture.
part of my goals for this piece is to demoralize the health professionals currently serving in the US Armed Forces (or “security services”0 who have been or are complicit -as well as to deter those who would collaborate if were not for their own avarice.
If you know anyone who can pass this post around blogs focused on military or military med issues, I’d be grateful.
The Pentagon aren’t the only ones who respect the value of psychological warfare.
I agree wholeheartedly, particularly, when we imported many of the same individuals whom were on board early on with the Gitmo ‘experiment’ to Abu Ghraib, ranging from the former Commanding General and senior JAG officer and interrogators… Probably the same medical crew as well…!
I wouldn’t want for former torturer working on my girls, obviously.
From the post:
I can hear the answers now: “I’m sorry, but my work while attached to the armed services is classified. I am not at liberty to tell you more than the fact that I was a medical officer in the United States military between this date and that date.”
There is nothing more offensive to me than a person, who having chosen or having pretended to choose to become a ‘healer’, then chooses, deliberately, for whatever short-term gain, to use that knowledge to harm or destroy another.
Such behavior is beyond excuse or rational, reasonable or human explanation.
It is unspeakably vile and destructive, and renders its practitioners unworthy of the society of upright human beings, unless they cease, forever, their charade and take up another line of work, dirty, dangerous, unglamorous and poorly compensated work, certainly NOT ‘religious’ in nature …
Please forgive my rants, but suffering humanity does not need the ‘ministrations’ of thugs and would-be Mengeles … ever and certainly never again.
Americans, Americans doing these things?
No, not Americans, just little crabbed souls … pathetic tiny nothings.
Sisyphus, this is truly horrific - turning our medical arts and skills to increase suffering is just monstrous.
Thank you for your post on this. We who rely more than the average bear on the medical community want to know our doctors and medical personnel uphold the highest ethical and legal standards.
I saw a dramatization of this issue–a psychiatrist who was tried, acquitted but lost her medical license–I think it was Law and Order. Painful to watch and see the doctor, albeit a characterization, able to rationalize her participation in overseeing torture.
I am thinking of that poor man who has kidney cancer….. knowing what he can and will go through unless he gets treatment….. the bleeding increases… to the point that the blood clots in your bladder and you can’t pee…. or it clots in the kidney and you pass those clots just like kidney stones…. I experienced both…. I had the benefit of immediate treatment and emergency surgery…… too much to take….
What has happened to my profession?
To which the prospective employer replies in that case you can go and engage in Cheney therapy bub. Our duty is to ensure that the doctors who treat our patients have acceptable ethical standards. Your refusal to answer that question means we cannot do that.
Bye bye.
Nothing respectful about horseracing.
Yes you did. My point was that there are times when calling a spade a spade is not enough. It’s an effing shovel so you call it that.
Precisely.
Aloha, Mark! Try not to be a stranger, you old codger…! 8-)
peterr, I can hear that, also. Part of our work will be to normalize refusing employment and access to public fundinng sources (Medicare, Medicaid/Medical, Tricare) to those who hide behind official secrecy. The job applicant “can’t” answer the question? OK - the State Medical Board is forbidden from licensing. The third party payer is prohibited from paying.
On the broader level, our pampered Pentagon princlings are our servants - not our masters. They’ve sluiced off 40% of our national wealth for decades. And the Pentagon princes have failed again.
Why give a bunch of incompetent, servile accomplices to torture the power to determine how we civilianns spend any (more) of our money?
So I agree the torturers and their masters will play the secrecy card.
How civil society responds is up to us as a free people.
Your excellent observation helps begin the planning for America’s Post-Imperial civil society: the America in which our childrens’ health is more important than any damned secret, military or corporate.