How do you know you aren’t going to a doctor who tortured for the Bushies? If someone in your family is choosing a therapist – or you are helping them choose – how do you know you aren’t choosing a therapist who went to work and helped torture people? How do you know if the nurse, EMT, or pharmacist you may depend on to ease your pain – or for your very life – wasn’t part of a torture team? Well, if they served with the US military since 2001, there’s no way to know.
As we’re learning in looseheadprop’s comprehensive series on the Yoo torture memo, the Bushies’ moral depravity has poisoned officials up and down the chain of command in the White House, the Department of Justice, the Department of Defense, and the armed forces. Acting under orders, Americans in uniform and American civilians have been (and continue to be) participating in war crimes and crimes against humanity – no matter how much UC Boalt Law School Professor John Yoo and other little Eichmanns of the Bush Reich may pretend otherwise.
As looseheadprop’s recent posts describe, the Bushies’ depravity has also spread out to poison many in the healing arts. Physicians and psychologists have collaborated in the "enhanced interrogation" torture of detainees in America’s gulag for the new millenium.
At an interrogation center called Camp Na’ma, where the unofficial motto was "No blood, no foul," one intelligence officer testified that "every harsh interrogation was approved by the [commander] and the Medical prior to its execution." Doctors, in other words, essentially signed off on torture in advance. And they often didn’t inspect the victims afterward. At Abu Ghraib, according to the Army’s surgeon general, only 15% of inmates were examined for injuries after interrogation.
At Abu Ghraib (and elsewhere) "medics" witnessed the aftermath of the gruesome torture military physicians "signed off" on, and by keeping silent, collaborated with the torturers. At Gitmo, "medics" force-feed hunger strikers, reportedly using the same feeding tube on multiple detainees in sequence. This gross violation of sterile technique is the best possible way of spreading HIV, hepatitis, and other deadly viruses from one detainee to another.
They used my feeding tube for another man last Monday [February 18]. This, even though they have marked the boxes for each tube. I have been getting a sore larynx, maybe from the infection of another person using my tube.
At Abu Ghraib, a US army pathologist signed what appears to be a false death certificate – effectively concealing death by torture.
Apparently without doing an examination, and according to the documents, without performing an autopsy, the pathologist Luis A. Santiago wrote that the man had died in his sleep. [snip]An Iraqi forensic pathologist who took the body over from the US armed forces confirmed to Spiegel TV in Baghdad that he diagnosed definite torture marks on the body of the deceased. In addition, photos of the deceased confirm that contrary to the US documentation, an autopsy had been performed on the man. The scars on the torso indicate that Western doctors did the autopsy. [snip]
…Even a layman can easily recognize the obvious effects of violence on the pictures of the body: Large, dark bruises that could come from beatings can be seen on both sides of the body. On the wrists and ankles there are bruises, which presumably date back to many days of captivity. There are bruises from beatings or other forms of violent impact on the back. Other lacerations on the upper body point to injuries which can hardly be called "natural".
Accessory after the fact to murder by torture? Or "merely" accessory after the fact to war crimes?
I don’t know – I’m not a lawyer. I’m just a doctor.
I do know that my "colleagues" who collaborated in torture and war crimes are monsters. Do you want these ghouls "caring" for your loved ones?
At Gitmo (as well as in the Naval Brig in South Carolina), detainees in the Bush gulag have reportedly been given psychotropic drugs. Add pharmacists to the list of collaborators.
The list of crimes and collaboration is at best a glimpse of the atrocities in the Bush Torture Archipelago. Today we’ve no way of knowing the full list of sites – Abu Gharaib, Gitmo, Bagram, Diego Garcia, and the Naval Brig in South Carolina are the hells we know of – what CIA and DOD "black sites" have we never yet heard of? Even when all the torture sites are known, we still won’t know precisely what atrocities were committed there. Nor will we know which professionals in the "healing arts" collaborated with the Bush Reich in war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I am very concerned about having cancer. I have had blood in my urine for a long time…..they have had seven positive tests for blood in my urine. [After a first negative scan for kidney stones], they did a second scan with a tracer in the blood. This time, they did not tell me the results for two months.
Again, I was left to worry about what might be wrong with me. Again, eventually a doctor came to see me, a black male, about 40 years old, clean shaven, in a uniform without rank on it. He saw me for only give minutes. He began decently, but then got rather hostile. He told me the test was negative, meaning that there was no kidney stone. "From my experience," the doctor said to me, "I think it’s cancer."
They then said that the next time a doctor would be coming with the appropriate expertise would be in May. Nobody would be coming before that, and he might not come even then. "You will leave me worrying about this for months?" I asked. "I don’t have the necessary equipment," said the doctor. He apparently thought the prisoners were not as important as the soldiers in his care. "I don’t mind if you suffer or not," he said. "It’s not my problem. I’m not here for you." He left.
So when Dr. Torture comes marching home again, how will know him – or her?
Professional identity is a start, but not enough. We know that at least some military psychologists (PhD’s) publicly support psychologists’ participation in torture. To their lasting shame, the American Psychological Association’s "leaders" failed to outright condemn this – though the recent elections in the APA show the rank-and-file oppose their colleagues’ collaboration. In contrast, official organized medicine (the home of MD’s and DO’s) has flatly condemned physicians’ participation in torture.
But that doesn’t mean psychologists are "the problem" and physicians and osteopaths are "OK". Both groups – psychologists and physicians – have followed orders and collaborated with the torturers. Pharmacists obviously have – so too have "medics" in the armed forces.
As we all know, America’s "leaders" have their own army of pet attorneys who will grovel and contort to justify any atrocity President Bush The Frog Torturer desires to inflict on a nation or a person. Rank upon rank of bemedalled "experts" will rise up from their Beltway crypts to tell us President Torquemada is right and just – so we must obey. And servile cynical profiteers in the media – "news" people and the writers and actors for "24" chief among them – have grown wealthy building echo-chambers for the crypt-dwellers.
So what can we do?
A lot. Hospital by hospital, county by county, state by state – we are the antidote to the poison the Bush Reich introduced to the healing arts.
And we have a lot of treatment options.
The biggest is state licensure. In the end, licensure is a political process – state reps tell the state medical board what to do. In California, the Legislature got so disgusted with my theater of the medical arts – psychotherapy – that they outlawed psychotherapists from having significant social involvement with clients. The CA medical board will also sanction docs (including loss of license) for having business relations with patients. No CA law currently prohibits licensure of physicians and other health professionals who collaborated in torture….but the Legislature passes lots of laws every year. This will be one more.
Every health care system I’ve ever worked in demanded that I give my entire professional work history – and they checked it out. This holds true for academic teaching hospitals, private hospitals, county hospitals, outpatient clinics. And they demand the same of other license providers: psychologists, nurses, pharmacists, EMT’s, and the like.
These histories ask if I’ve ever been arrested, convicted, etc. I’ve never been asked if I tortured or been party to torture – but any health care system that wishes can add that.
Any state or city or county can refuse to employ or provide their public funds to health professionals who’ve tortured or assisted torturers – and demand all seeking compensation from a given system to attest they never have never collaboratored with torture or torturers.
Any academic medical center can deny employment to tortures or torture collaborators – as can any other health care system. As UC’s Boalt School of Law is finding, the consequence of employing torturers – much less giving them tenure – are severe, and inexorable.
And any consumer choosing new health care providers (if they have a choice) can ask if the provider served in the armed forces during the Bush Reich – and then ask if the provider is a torture collaborator.
Docs didn’t used to lose their licenses for drunk driving – now they do. That change came from public pressure.
While the Boy Frog-Torturer sits in the Oval Office and "no table" Nancy waggles her gavel, we may not be able to make the collaborators – and worse – that pass for our "leaders" to stop the torture.
Coming together as individuals, we can make the healing arts a no-go zones for torturers and those who collaborated with them.
Will some of the docs and psychologists and medics just lie? Sure. And – just like the immigrants who lied when they denied complicity in the Nazi Reich – they’ll ultimately be found out. With the CIA and FBI knowing a lot of Bushie secrets, we’ll have the tools to know who lied about torture much sooner than we had the tools to detect a lot of the now-elderly Nazis.
So the torture docs lied – big deal? Well, in CA and other states, significant acts of deception in licensure (or hospital privileges) are themselves ground for loss of license. And each state shares the "defrocked" list with the other states.
Will this stop the torture today? Nope. I wish it would.
At the least, these efforts – and others like them – will empower us to sanction the torturers and the collaborators. In moving to exclude the torture docs from the hospitals and clinics we pay for – and from laying hands upon us and our loved ones – we reclaim our common humanity.
Nuremberg established "just following orders" is no excuse. We can set ourselves apart from the "Good Bushies" who even now support torture and other crimes of humanity – and remind my colleagues that physicians were also convicted of war crimes.
Or we can do nothing – stand by passively and let our families and kids depend on the mercy and ethics of the "little Mengeles" who collaborated with the Bush Reich in torture and crimes against humanity.
I know what I’ll do. Hope you’ll join me. Please call you state reps and state medical board. Tell our servants when Dr Torture comes marching home again – the doc will have to find other work.
The local slaughterhouse is always looking for a few good sadists.
[photocredit: sitemarca]
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dr. Steven Miles, Oath Betrayed: America’s Torture Doctors
- Jim Cooper: How to Win Friends and Influence People in the Tennessee 5th
- America Doesn’t Ration Care – Except to Those Who Don’t Have Insurance
- “Fair and Balanced” in Academia: Twisting Recent Torture History in the Journal “Nature”
- Air Force Doctor Gets Medal for Serving on Rendition Torture Flights





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What’s up, Doc?
first do no harm?
I agree with you Kirk. It shouldn’t need to be said that torture has no place near those who practice the healing arts. I had to write that sentence over and over: it is a crazy time we live in, when torture and healing arts can be put in one sentence.
WTF, died in his sleep…?
By the way, the APA elections aren’t over, by a long chalk. But Steven Reisner, who has been fighting the good fight for years now, did win the first round of balloting. (Election is in October. A big fight is anticipated. There’s beaucoup bucks to be had in military grants, and the status quo in the APA ain’t backing down without a fight.)
Thanks for this post.
Doctor! Tell it like it is! I am just so ashamed, I just don’t feel like an American any longer-or maybe I do (after reading a little Howard Zinn).
BTW doesn’t that move it into the realm of ‘Major Internal Organ Failure’, the one line Yoo professed to be illegal…? Jez asking… 8-(
Excellent post.
Hi folks – as Laura says, this is a crazy time. I don’t have words for my sadness about America’s descent from a nation and society that publicly deplored torture to a nation (and society) in which so many avowedly support it. [Much less a nation where millions eagerly await torture as entertainment on their weekly fix of “24″.]
When did such conduct become acceptable? What country am I in, anyway? I hear it called “the United States of America,” but this evidence calls that into dispute.
Laura, thanks so much for your gentle correction of my error on the APA elections, I’ve finally found a candidate I can endorse: Resiner for President!
Doc, I think the following sentence lost a couple of words somewhere along the way.
Great post Doc, but a very scary one though. It’s kind of unnerving that there are individuals in our country with this secret inside them and could be part of our community.
I bet WWII Germany had this kind of psychological terror too.
*sigh* my country sucks. I’m working to change its suckiness but it still sucks
‘Psychology’, which once held the promise of truly being of genuine use in the human quest for health and understanding, has belittled, and bespoiled itself, perhaps beyond redemption, and worthy practitioners, such as yourself, and humanity in general shll pay the price unless the profession can find its soul.
I hate to be so stark in my appalled judgement, Laura, but this ‘crisis’ for the ‘profession’ puts all of us who care in the same position, in essence, as the DC Madam, with just enough rope …
Thanks dakine01 for your careful reading.
That should have been:
While the Boy Frog-Torturer sits in the Oval Office and “no table” Nancy waggles her gavel, we may not be able to make the collaborators – and worse – that pass for our “leaders” to stop the torture.
I will ask the mods if they can do a bit of corrective surgery.
I’m imagining Bush Nazis delivering babies in the US. Scary to think about.
I say a great bumper sticker the other day; “I love my Country… I hate my Government!” ;-)
Well, then, here’s some good news: you really only have to worry about a Bush Nazi delivering your baby if you can afford the coverage to start with.
(I’m still waiting for proof that she killed herself. She warned that she might be killed, you know, and that it might look like suicide.)
The APA may find that, if they fail to change, they will become an association for state apologists, while others form a new and better society. (Check out the org: psychologists for social justice).
Our civil society is better than our government. I truly believe this.
I only read it about five times trying to figure out what was missing or how it fit together before giving up. :})
Kay, you’re bringing up an excelelnt point. State-based torture serves political power precisely by spreading fear of torture throughout the civilian populace, deterring participation even in peaceful, non-violent protest and political action.
oops – sorry dakine01 :{
And TeddySF, thanks for being here and your kind assessment!
I agree, about the question of suicide, but I think the ‘profession’ MUST decide where its heart and soul truly lie.
It is with humanity or with power?
THAT is the question.
There are several other ‘professions’ which likewise, at this late date, must choose …
Those who practice the ‘law’ among them.
Yep. Psychological terror is what fascists thrive on and it’s how they control the populace. Scary times we’re living in, but that hasn’t stopped me from participating in protests and calling & yelling at my representatives. Unfortunately, there are a lot who are scared.
If you think about it, though, those who participated in torture over the last few years will at some point come home to the states. These individuals could be working for our local fire/police/rescue or could even be the person changing the tires on our car! It’s a weird thought…one that I hadn’t thought about until your post.
Abu G get a job yet?
thank you Kirk.
and Drs. Torture and other medical and nursing “professionals” should also face war crimes tribunals along with lots of other folks.
Good point, EvilDrPuma, and it means the poor of our country will continue to be ‘tortured’ by these assholes.
Yes. I am sure that many attorneys feel as ashamed of their profession as we are of ours.
Always good to see you, David. I’m leaving now, but hope to ’see’ you again soon.
thanks again, Kirk.
Goodnight everyone.
my sentiments exactly
but there are some folks that aren’t gov’t related that add to the general overall suckiness as well. i talked to a few today while phone banking. It really is true, stupid burns.
A bumper sticker I saw today:
“Piss on the Liberals, Get A Gun”
Nice, huh? Spit.
How about Yoo?
Or Addington?
Or Mukasey?
Or Roberts?
Or Scalia?
Or Thomas?
Many questions, few good answers.
The profession needs to do MORE, and they must know that …
‘Nite, Laura.
Nite nite Laura. I’m out too. Nite all!
Excellent post, Doc! I’ll have nightmares now. Thanks. ;-)
G’Nite, Kay …
Aloha, Laura!
Aloha, Kay!
The really horrifying part of this is the ability of doctors to “enhance” torture through the use of pharmaceuticals and techniques. I know from experience (illness, not torture) that when pain becomes too much to bear, you (mercifully!) lose consciousness, but doctors know how to keep people awake, no matter what. That was the horror that was done to the some DEA agents in Mexico (?) about ten years ago, a horror I’ve never been able to get out of my mind. And, don’t forget what dentists can do, too.
Why John Yoo has not been disbarred for simple incompetence I’ll never know. Anyone who can so misread the Constitution and case law should be ousted from ABA. And any medical professional who acts in anyone’s interest other than the patient’s, in any way whatsoever, should also have their license yanked.
Of course, that posits that we live in a rational and ethical world, a reality that seems to be fast receding from memory.
In changing the body politic of medicine to wall off and expel the torture virus, the state medical boards will be a central line for our efforts.
The FSMB (Federation of State Medical Boards) is the official association for the state medical boards.
Hmmm. “integrity of health care”. Even based in Dallas, I’m betting the FSMB will want to be seen to oppose licensing torturers.
To find your state’s licensing board for MD’s and DO’s, doc board has this nifty linky.
Yoo, Addington, Mukasey, not looking too bright, as Alberto’s situation suggests…
Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, posh!
;~P
So what? Doctors have long collaborated in torture ask:
The doctors who worked for the SS.
The doctors who worked for the KGB.
The doctors who worked for Pinochet.
The doctors who worked directly for the Apartheid regime in South Africa.
The doctors who worked for and still work for the Israeli army.
The doctors who worked for and still work for the various Mukhbarat services.
The doctors who worked for Savak.
Medical complicity in torture is at least as old as the hippocratic oath……
here’s the elephant in the room;
for every bit of information you might have gathered through torture you have lost ten
the information is not actionable, there is no quality to it, you waste assets pursuing those false leads and you loose the real leads you would have gathered had you not used torture
in addition to this, for every person we torture we turn ten who were moderates into radicals, we turn those who were radicals into heroes among the people
we turn every friend, every relative and every person those tortured know into enemies of this country
it is bizarre these facts are not repeated by democrats and progressives
the purpose of torture is not to gather information, you get less information, you waste assets tracking worthless information down and you loose much more information you might have gathered that you could have acted
the pupose of torture is to instill fear in the populace, to create unrest to drive insurgents and enemies
when you want unrest, when you want your populace to fear the government you use policies of torture
that’s the very reason, it is the only reason
how on earth could bush have “won the hearts and minds of the Iraqi’s” when they know he directs torture toward their populace
the answer is he couldn’t possibly win their hearts or their minds and he knew it, the answer is they wanted the insurgency
all too true.
(hi mfi– hope all is well with you and yours.)
*standing on chair clapping*
thank you, kirk
G’nite Laura and Kay – thank you both for joinng us here and for your thoughful comments.
ANd sorry about the nightmare – I don’t know how to describe the waking nightmare our Armed Forces/Security Services and their collaborating medics have created without disturbing all of our rest.
Joy Behar is doing a fabulous job on Larry King tonite… Larry aired a clip of Joy confronting McInsane on what differentiates him from Shrub… John was hemming and hawing…! ;-)
markfromireland, those observations are all true – and the physicians’ participation in all those acts was unforgiveable.
I think gangrape is unforgiveable in the present, even though it happened in the past.
I can’t stop the past gangrapes, and I can’t change physicians’ past acts.
I can – and will – do whatever is possible to oppose and hamper the current torture docs. Hammering them on the consequences when they leave the military and return to civilian life is one effort.
Should you wish to join in opposing and preventing current heinous acts by docs collaborating with US forces, I look forward to reading your constructive suggestions here.
perris: beautifully said, I’m going to “borrow” your thoughts, but with a slight change: “loose” becomes “lose”
;~P
Erdla and the grandchildren are doing well. Du is with his regiment and as we have no news of him he’s presumably alive and well. I’m getting my first solid meal in days tomorrow and believe me (no offense) I am looking forward to it as some battleaxe of a nurse with a protein bomb in a bag is no substitute for food or any other pleasure come to that.
Howdy, Ma’am! I used that new found knowledge today…! *g*
mfi, hope that first solid meal is tasty and your recovery speedy….
It seems that at the most basic the doctors involved have been involved in falsifying records such as a death certificate, or cause of illness/injury report. This is a misapplication of their scientific and medical training. Lying or deceptions of such official certified documents constitutes perjury. And when one acts to allow or continue a course of abuse or mistreatment one is violating the Hippocratic oath. One must do what is necessary to stop such mistreatment.
That just seems SO BASIC. When one agrees to participate by seeing a patient that individual becomes ones “employer” -regardless of who is supplying the cash. One’s patient is NOT the CIA or Department of Defense.
Wow, Mark! I hope ya get well soon, I wasn’t aware that you were in a hospital…! 8-(
nicely done, ct – glad i was able to help ya out
When you suspect it you investigate it rigorously. When you discover it you punish it rigorously and I mean rigorously it’s not enough to strike them off, not enough to imprison them, you make their lives hell by treating them with complete contempt until the day they die. And by the way you strip their assets all of them so that they die on the dole when they evetually get out of jail.
Good night, Laura.
An interesting paper on this topic in JAMA
Complicity in Torture by Physicians
mfi, i love those solutions. from your keyboard to my medical cooleagues’ ears.
Nighters!
Along with many members of the media, I hope, who have chosen to be complicit in these war crimes.
Another excellent and disturbing post, Kirk. More of the same, please. Nothing like telling it straight: War Crimes.
Eventually, these people will have to pay.
boa noite, Laura and Kay
I do hope you is correct.
But the ‘poshers’ may yet bring this country to its knees …
My prayers are with Du and continuing best wishes for your recovery…
(I am grinning like a fool at your apt description of post procedure ‘care’. I was once in a hospital in DK and when I was able to eat they gave me salty sweet kaernemaelk suppe with raisins– ye gads!)
Dru sends her best to you!
cinnamonape, thanks so much for that citation. the abstract alone is chilling.
Torture is an act of Terrorism.
It’s very simpe Kirk torture is the ultimate betrayal of the trust placed in medical personnel – more so even than murder. The retribution has to be appropriate. The various positive measures such as instilling rigorous ethics are essential. But my view of humans and what we get up to tends to be a bit bleak so I tend to the belief that what keeps honest people honest is fear of getting caught.
Of course, I should admit that paper sort of suggests that nothing has changed EXCEPT for the nationality of those physicians doing the torture. How are these US doctors much (or any different) than the ones that cooperated with Saddam? In fact, given the fact that the American doctors could report to the media and walk away from the torture and not face death it seems that the morality of the US Medical Establishment involved in this are far lower.
Erdla stopped by this morning to tell us that the hospital in sadr city had been bombed. many thanks for that.
Likewise.
I wonder if JAMA will update/re-evaluate it since the Americans have been there…!
They’re worse any doctor or anyone else who didn’t collaborate with the Mukhbarat knew what would happen to them and their family. That is not (yet) the case with your military.
And folks, I’ve forgotten my manners: welcome and thanks to CTuttle, angie, nonplussed, EDP, DWBartoo, Dr Bong, sisyphus, perris, CarolynU – sorry I haven’t directly said “hi” and thanksed you for coming.
Our wonderful backstage crew at the Lake tells us that for every commenter, we have hundreds who may be reading – over 1,500 in this last hour.
We’ll all need medical care someday – or will love someone who does.
For those reading but not yet commenting, please jump into the Lake to share your feelings: How would you feel about a torture doc caring for your family?
I cried in continued rage when I read about it this am.
And the US blamed the Iraqis again.
Let’s hope so…it seems ironic that US military and intelligence associated physicians were doing this type of thing (without actual amputation) in concert with interrogators under the very noses of this team of interviewers. The irony is in that last statement. When one considers that no Iraqi law would have put any physician employed by the Pentagon or CIA (or even US contractor) under any sort of legal threat it sounds pretty hollow.
Veterinary news. Racehorse. Why do we treat animals more respectfully than we treat humans?
yes.
Kind of said that Mark.
Do military doctors take an oath that is different from civilian doctors?
mark, i fully agree with you – and i appreciate your looking down the trajectory of required responses. tonight i began with diagnosing the problem – and asking our readers to imagine having the torture docs come home to their local doc’s office – in the white coat.
yet that act of imagination – assessing personal consequences for those us safe here at home in the US – is just the first step of what i hope to see to see. criminal prosecution, confiscatory civil suits (if not confiscatory fines) and total social ostracism is what i hope to see visited upon the health professionals who collaborated – or collaborate – with torture.
part of my goals for this piece is to demoralize the health professionals currently serving in the US Armed Forces (or “security services”0 who have been or are complicit -as well as to deter those who would collaborate if were not for their own avarice.
If you know anyone who can pass this post around blogs focused on military or military med issues, I’d be grateful.
The Pentagon aren’t the only ones who respect the value of psychological warfare.
I agree wholeheartedly, particularly, when we imported many of the same individuals whom were on board early on with the Gitmo ‘experiment’ to Abu Ghraib, ranging from the former Commanding General and senior JAG officer and interrogators… Probably the same medical crew as well…!
I wouldn’t want for former torturer working on my girls, obviously.
From the post:
I can hear the answers now: “I’m sorry, but my work while attached to the armed services is classified. I am not at liberty to tell you more than the fact that I was a medical officer in the United States military between this date and that date.”
There is nothing more offensive to me than a person, who having chosen or having pretended to choose to become a ‘healer’, then chooses, deliberately, for whatever short-term gain, to use that knowledge to harm or destroy another.
Such behavior is beyond excuse or rational, reasonable or human explanation.
It is unspeakably vile and destructive, and renders its practitioners unworthy of the society of upright human beings, unless they cease, forever, their charade and take up another line of work, dirty, dangerous, unglamorous and poorly compensated work, certainly NOT ‘religious’ in nature …
Please forgive my rants, but suffering humanity does not need the ‘ministrations’ of thugs and would-be Mengeles … ever and certainly never again.
Americans, Americans doing these things?
No, not Americans, just little crabbed souls … pathetic tiny nothings.
Sisyphus, this is truly horrific – turning our medical arts and skills to increase suffering is just monstrous.
Thank you for your post on this. We who rely more than the average bear on the medical community want to know our doctors and medical personnel uphold the highest ethical and legal standards.
I saw a dramatization of this issue–a psychiatrist who was tried, acquitted but lost her medical license–I think it was Law and Order. Painful to watch and see the doctor, albeit a characterization, able to rationalize her participation in overseeing torture.
I am thinking of that poor man who has kidney cancer….. knowing what he can and will go through unless he gets treatment….. the bleeding increases… to the point that the blood clots in your bladder and you can’t pee…. or it clots in the kidney and you pass those clots just like kidney stones…. I experienced both…. I had the benefit of immediate treatment and emergency surgery…… too much to take….
What has happened to my profession?
To which the prospective employer replies in that case you can go and engage in Cheney therapy bub. Our duty is to ensure that the doctors who treat our patients have acceptable ethical standards. Your refusal to answer that question means we cannot do that.
Bye bye.
Nothing respectful about horseracing.
Yes you did. My point was that there are times when calling a spade a spade is not enough. It’s an effing shovel so you call it that.
Precisely.
Aloha, Mark! Try not to be a stranger, you old codger…! 8-)
peterr, I can hear that, also. Part of our work will be to normalize refusing employment and access to public fundinng sources (Medicare, Medicaid/Medical, Tricare) to those who hide behind official secrecy. The job applicant “can’t” answer the question? OK – the State Medical Board is forbidden from licensing. The third party payer is prohibited from paying.
On the broader level, our pampered Pentagon princlings are our servants – not our masters. They’ve sluiced off 40% of our national wealth for decades. And the Pentagon princes have failed again.
Why give a bunch of incompetent, servile accomplices to torture the power to determine how we civilianns spend any (more) of our money?
So I agree the torturers and their masters will play the secrecy card.
How civil society responds is up to us as a free people.
Your excellent observation helps begin the planning for America’s Post-Imperial civil society: the America in which our childrens’ health is more important than any damned secret, military or corporate.
Besides the “healers”, we’ll have many seriously fucked up people returning to the States eventually. Many Americans feel insulated from this war, but the horror of it will play out in our society for years to come.
And thanks for visiting.
Come back soon, mark!
To your list of torture docs, you can add these.
The auditors that covered up Enron. (the same firm that made me realize I didn’t want to be an auditor after all)
The media stars and pundits who have remained quiet ( see Arianna’s excellent post of this afternoon.
The church that covered up their pedophile priests ( and the pope who gave war crimminal Bush the honor of a state visit)
The politicians who have done nothing to bring Cheney the espionage agent to justice. (in re the destruction of Brewster Jennings)
The captains of industry who profit off the blood of innocents and steal the jobs and money of their own customers.
The generals who have led their Army to such shame. (they all should have resigned rather than commit atrocities)
Why are we being served so badly by those we are supposed to respect and follow?
Yes Americans doing those things. There’s a point here. We used to get a lot of shock and horror when we talked about the new American master race. How can you say that? Was the gist of the comments.
The reply is that any people who believe that jsut because they are who are they are in some way intrisically better than other peoples have bought into the master race lie and sooner or later will act accordingly.
Americans need to get used to the idea that they are human. Just as human for example as the Iraki torturer. That they are not intrinsically better. That given the circumstances and/or the opportunity that they can be and are just as barbaric as everyone else. And that that is why we have laws, and ethics, and in my case religion.
To protect us from ourselves.
There’s an Arab proverb:
“If it hadn’t been for religion we would have all killed each other.”
It’s very true.
Good question, AZMatt. Whatever oaths they take, their military cultrue cannot be allowed to override our civilian vlaues.
Just as war is too important to be left to generals, medicine is too importnat for physicians and the public to defer to military ethics.
I believe that the Uniform Code of Militay Justice still requires that personnel in uniform adhere to US law – and part of US law is the War crimes Act. No amount of attorney scribbling effaces that.
Hence – IIRC – the military docs have an obligation under UCMJ to refuse to be complicit in torture.
But dammit AZMatt, I’m a doctor, not a lawyer.
(and I hope you know a few Trekkies, or that may seem rude…)
Damn, well said.
The military is not a sacred cow.
And those who seek ‘cover’ behind their ’service’ insult all of those who serve honorably …
As you say, they are our servants, and ALL of us must NEVER forget that or they will help themselves or others become our masters.
Great post, Doctor.
I’m not blaming the soldiers who join military by my comment at 93 – I see who they are before they go. Young kids with the future sucked out of their communites and recruiters promising them everything. And they look around, and there is no choice. No education. No job. And lies lies lies from the army. So they go. And they become brainwashed, and some of them become part of the horror that they thought they were going to fight.
seconded.
Is there any group of professionals that have not failed in their duty? I am trying very hard to think of one and would appreciate any mentions. Not even professional sports referees anymore!
This I can answer as I had it investigated thoroughly:
No.
The hippocratic oath starts:
“First do no harm”
For a doctor that should override all other considerations.
Beam me up!
I agree, mark, I just wish to make them as small and pathetic as they are.
As I said this morning upon hearing of the bombing of the hospital,
America has no soul nor heart nor conscience …
And we also lack the courage to stop the outrage.
Yes Americans did this and yes we are human, but also at the moment, less than human, as well.
more here:
http://www.democracynow.org/20…..nvolved_in
and there is another interview with Dr. Steven Miles avail there as well.
Doc, this ain’t even the half of it…
We have no idea what we’re spending it on, or, can even account for it…
Please read this very recent obit for Dr. Alice Ricciardi-von Platen.
Dr. Platen witnessed the Nazi extermination of mentally and physically ill patients.
When she wrote about this in Germany after the war, she was blacklisted by the profession who “sealed” all of her research into the atrocities. In other words, the profession (not the politicians) performed the cover-up.
A warning to all!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..752671.ece
Yay! (for AZMatt’s response).
Folks, in the net marketplace of ideas, Diggs are currency.
If those reading could Digg this post to help get this message out, I’d be most grateful. As stated above, one goal of this post is to reach military docs – the more diggs this gets, the farther it will spread (FDL is blocked on at least some DOD posts, but heavily “dugg” posts spread to other websites.)
Right in there with suicides by multiple shotgun blasts and the guy in Austin who ‘committed suicide’ with duct tape on his face and his hands bound, drowning himself in a lake.
That series is a good example of the myth – the day that Americans realise that this is not star trek and the USA in not the federation is the day they’ll start to get the tools to heal themselves.
Thanks for that timely reminder posuane. Fortunately, even under the Bush Reich, we still have the space to create the opposite outcome: we can still create a post-Imperial America in which the professions eject the war criminals, not hide them.
And angie and CT, thanks for your very helpful comments.
strato, you ask a great question, for which i don’t have an answer:
I’d consider that answer to be the equivalent of ‘yes’. There’s no reason for military medical work to be secret, any more than for civilian medical work to be secret.
Before I head off. Kirk you might be interested in this post.
استحداث دراسة الماجستير في ادارة التمريض بجامعة بغداد
There’s a short English summary. Despite all that’s been do to the place the medical tradition and profession is alive and well in Irak.
After that post, I had to go have a cigarette to calm back down.
Good night folks
*poof*
Good morning, Mark.
If you’re interested in those who work caring for survivors, let me commend to you the Center for Victims of Torture. As I said in an earlier post, I know someone who has been through their treatment programs. They are a powerfully committed group of medical practitioners, who are appalled at what is being done in the name of protecting the country.
good night, mark – thanks for joining us! and thanks for the link.
mark!!!
peterr, thanks for sharing hte good word about hte great folks at CVJ and their amazing work
Thank you so much for this, Kirk.
It is scary to think of the ones who come home…will they heal, or try to? Will they take out their pain on patients?
I have had to report a couple of nursing home techs for abuse to a patient. And they hadn’t been anywhere; they were just twisted and hated their job.
mark, there are stories people have written that make it really clear that we’re not all assuming that that particular future’s all-sweetness-and-light, either. (It was, after all, a TV show, not reality, much as some of us would like for it to be real.)
Thank you, Peterr– that is the Center that Douglas Johnson is Executive Director of.
When this period ends, and it will someday, the people who particapted will probably have the butts cover by government cuz they were protecting America. The Rethugs will probably get bills in Congress to make it illeagal to “discriminate” against them.
boa noite, mark.
hope to hear from you again soon
“cvt“, not “cvj”
Great question, Margot. Our work in civil society is to pathologize the torture – to return to defining torture as a depraved, evil act. Along with that, to make torture as despicable – and as punishable – as kiddy porn.
As Lifton (IIRC) and writers on the (School of the Americas trained) torturers in Latin America have so eloquently written, torture deforms the torturing sociey even while inflicting unspeakable suffering on the torture victims.
And then the torturers go on to be docs and prison guards and judges and lawyers and neighbors – and fathers and mothers and spouses.
We will be cleaning up the human wreckage from the Bush Reich’s torture for a couple of generations – and that’s just in the US.
A small note of hope…just reported on Kos that the Dem apparently won in LA-01, a trad solid red district.
We’ll be cleaning up…but more and more we’ll have the peoplepower to see that it gets done.
A good nightcap.
Thanks, doctor, for your committed caring.
I expect that these pharmacists, psychologists and medical doctors have all signed agreements that, among other things, require their silence. For “national security reasons”. Arguably, such an agreement or portions of it should be void because it furthers a criminal conspiracy. But that would require an unpoliticized DOJ, courts and Congress to establish.
We don’t have those things now. It will take more than a year to get them and for them to make this a priority among the fetid mess of issues the Deciderer will leave behind him like an overfed elephant. Some of those will take much more than a year. Based on an earlier thread, of the ten most radically conservative Supreme Court Justices who have served over the last three quarters of a century, five are on the court now and form its majority. One of whom, Roberts, replaced a sixth, William Rehnquist.
We also need to assess something else. The famous Stanford prisoner experiments made clear how quickly the ordinary and the fair-minded can become corrupted by systemic violence. I can imagine the administrative and peer pressures that mitigate against a physician reporting another physician’s negligence in an ordinary hospital setting. Imagine the greater forces at work in the Bush Gulags.
A medical corps captain or major looks to his or her colonel, who looks to the general, the general staff, the SecDef, the President. From press reports, everyone in that chain of command is corrupted on this issue. Daniel Ellsberg might have felt he was fighting the same odds when he leaked the Pentagon Paper’s, a remarkable and dangerous act of civil disobedience. At least he had the New York Times. Who is confident the Times’ current management would make the same decisions as its predecessor? If the Times did the right thing, would the rest of the press ignore it, as they have the Pentagon Propaganda scandal? Or would they resolutely attack the leaker and his publisher?
Nixon’s DOJ also eventually gave up and reluctantly accepted defeat over the publishing of the Pentagon Papers. That was in the face of their release and the Times’ success at the Supreme Court. Who thinks the current radical majority on this Supreme Court would follow the Ellsberg precedent? Would Cheney’s Bush or his DOJ concede like Nixon’s? Or in the face of exposure to possible capital crimes would they double down? Retribution is Dick Cheney’s middle name. Would he treat uncooperative healthcare professionals more kindly than Valerie Plame, or would he have them cashiered, sent to the brig, with red-lined personnel jackets, bereft of employment, benefits, retirement and future prospects?
I do not mean to excuse their behavior. Morally and legally, self-preservation does not justify criminal acts directed at others. Their ethical, professional and personal obligation is, first, to do no harm. It doesn’t usually require self-sacrifice of the scale demanded by Bush’s corruption, but it’s inherent in their job as it is inherent among the legal profession’s.
My point is to evaluate that context when evaluating the behavior of these healthcare professionals and when deciding what steps we need to take to impose sanctions and to stop the cooperation. It is also that we recognize Bush’s corruption of society’s checks and balances, not just those of the federal government.
How do we make the sacrifices of those who say, “NO” to that corruption worthwhile and, more importantly, successful? The answers affect not just these healthcare professionals and those under their care. It affects those raped KBR employees, scores of whistleblowers, thousands of former government employees, nine former USA’s and all their colleagues. I hope we can find a few of the many answers we need. Great topic, Doc.
Thank you, Prarie!
I wanted to just say that although I’m not contributing anything of substance to the thread, it has been an educational. thank you all
When the questions are framed with such eloquence as yours I can find reason to hope that the human heart may be compelled to seek full and complete answers, and, hopefully, find or discover the courage requisite to hold those accountable (for what has befallen our nation and those whom we have harmed)up to the tender mercies of the Law.
Thank you, earl …
Prairie, thanks to you and all the good folk here at the Lake and elsewhere who remember that our nation – despite our flawed past and present – has the capacity and integrity to rise above torture and war crimes.
As the Bushies’ Iraq disaster accelerates us past the end of a century of Imperial ambitions, we in this century have the real opportunity to return our nation to the values we knew before our military started killing the Filipinos we “liberated” from Spain…almost a century ago.
And we’ll have Mark Twain to show the way!
Excellent company – as are y’all. Thanks for joining together at the Lake tonight.
Now I’m off to dine with loved ones.
Good night, pups.
Limiting your comments to doctors is not even approaching the real problem. The men that are performing the actual torture will come back and join the local police force. Think “third degree” interrogations won’t be far behind?
Well, yeah.
But since the author isn’t in law enforcement, but is instead, an M.D….
As always, Kirk, thank you for daring to raise the questions that discomfit the soul.
Kirk great post! The subject of torture is something I never thought would be about Americans performing it. We as a country need to realize that the rest of the world has lost all respect for us1 We will never live this down unless these war criminials are brought to justice by our justice system and not left up to the international courts to met out the justice that cries out to be administrated to these abhorrent officials!
Nancy needs to be included in the gang for no=t allowing the Impeachment hearing to begin. Only when that happens will the real truth and depth of the travesties that have besmirch the good name of the United States!
Thank again for this post which brings home to all the depth of these criminials!
Other places, too. To become accustomed to the idea, without having to invoke the actual Nazis:
Death and the Maiden
The Official Story
(To the webmasters: I was just locked out of here for about 45min, a thing that happens frequently of late. The usual pattern includes failure of one of the blogs at firedoglake.com, while the others remain available, and surfing at my end also remains undisturbed. Ciao.)
Bravo & wholehearted thanks dear Kirk for this important post and most memorable discussion! Thank you too intrepid firepups for your thoughtful comments.
so how would we know?
It is really frustrating to be living under the Bush Reich
and the Cheney Junta. The power to tell Santiago to say that
the detainee died in his sleep is the horror that these
criminals brought to the table.
I am a day late to this post because my husband was in hospital for four days having carotid artery surgery with a bad reaction to anasthesia. He was sedated for 24 hours and on a ventilator. Luckily he improved and was discharged Saturday. Were any of his MDs former torturors? There was the surgeon, the anesthesiologist, the internist, the pulmonologist etc etc. Some were young enough to have been military. I wish I had read this post earlier. Some years ago, a doctor wrote a book about the crime of medical professionals participating and enabling torture at Abu Gharib…can’t recall his name or book title. But this has been a concern of the medical profession (read good doctors) for some time now. Kirk, your article poses a new scary uncertainty about our immediate future. I will surely ask your question of every MD I encounter in the future. Thank you for this uncomfortable and stirring post. This is the reason I read and occasionally participate at FDL.