Comments on: Come Saturday Morning: The Silver Lining That’s Green

By: rwcole

rwcole — Sat, 03 May 2008 20:41:42 +0000

The earliest part of the new testament is from Paul. There are disputes as to which of the books attributed to him were actually written by him- but the noncontroversial ones are placed about 67 AD if I am remembering correctly…

While Paul does not claim to have seen Jesus- he was affiliated with several of the original disciples including James the brother of Jesus. (see Acts).

By: mls78

mls78 — Sat, 03 May 2008 19:56:11 +0000

Of course W and his ilk will be 100 years too late. “Backwards” describes them well.

By: BoiseNick

BoiseNick — Sat, 03 May 2008 19:29:05 +0000

I was born & raised in a suburb of Youngstown on the Rusty River . The last time I visited my Mom all I saw was downtown decay and way too many retail outlets in the burbs . I hope this new plan works but I’m not holding my breath . City leadership has for too long had corruption problems in a faded Y-town still controlled by the Mob thru their political flunkies .

By: cinnamonape

cinnamonape — Sat, 03 May 2008 19:23:01 +0000

It’s interesting that there isn’t a single Aramaic gospel known from the time (there’s debate about whether the Syriac Bible is a translation of a Greek Scripture…but it does have some interesting differences from the Western Gospels). I think most scholars have realized that early Christianity was pretty much a set of different oral traditions that only later were set down. In the region of Judaea and Samaria followers likely had some actual experience of what Jesus said when he preached in the area and they went by that. There’s no evidence in any of the surviving Gospels that Jesus or any of his followers wrote down anything. And if you read the Gospels carefully there are events told by the “witnesses” which could not have been witnessed by that writer, who was elsewhere. In fact, even if the gospel writer was not the original “Matthew” or “Mark”, but a tradition attributed to that Disciple…90% of the events in them had to have been outside the actual experience of that original “teller” (IOW second, third or fourth-hand). For example, Samaritan Woman at the well? Who actually witnessed that discussion…only Jesus and the woman. One of my favorite Jesus stories…that you also cite (the Woman Caught in Adultery) is probably a 3rd century inclusion of a Greek story according to most authors. A similar story about a “Solomonaic” prince who judged a woman caught in an affair was prevalent in Greek folklore about that time. It was likely a monk’s marginal reference that then got included as part of the Gospel. In fact, look at the text before and after without that tale. It flows on the same topic…but the story breaks up that.
Some of the disciples were likely marginally literate (the tax collectors for example) but there is not a single reference of a letter or anything written down. Even the idea that Jesus was literate since he was so adept at the Scripture ignores the fact that most religious learning required memorization of verses taught orally. That Jesus was able to recite or paraphrase Torah (and didn’t whip out a scroll as a memory aid) actually supports this.

But even by the time of Paul (who was literate and wrote many letters) Christianity had diversified to such widely diverging faith-systems that he was mainly intent on “correcting” others interpretations of it. Paul wasn’t the “first evangelist” - he was the first to try and standardize it- and it’s not clear that his views of what Jesus meant, or wanted, went over very well with the Jerusalem Church. Paul wants people to think so…but even here he’s ambivalent.

But the diversity that Paul ENCOUNTERED also implies that Christianity (or perhaps we should call it the “Jesus Faith”) spread mainly through oral means rather than through gospels. It’s unclear if Paul even carried a written gospel around. He nowhere refers to having one….though he does cite verses. The first known snippet of an actual book of the Bible dates from @125 AD, and even it is about the size of a torn-up mailing label. One wouldn’t even guess it was a Bible passage unless it contained a few key words.

I actually argue that this diversity and spread before Paul actually argues for an authentic, flesh-and-blood Jesus that was out there preaching…thus many people actually saw and met him. But it means that every little hamlet got a different version of Jesus (rabbi, messiah, martyr, apocalyptic vs. new-age prophet, magician-healer, etc.). At some point someone who was literate may have written down these local experiences and the fundamentals of what their local clerics taught. Thus one got a proliferation of gospels, one per group…plus perhaps some letters, poetry, and other documents that related to the church. An oral tradition would have been much stronger in the Jewish homeland where a) people were used to oral tradition, and b) they had direct experience of Jesus. Outside of those areas (in the Greek and Roman evangelized areas) written documentation would have been more likely, given the Greeks greater literacy and need to have textual proof.

By: nahant

nahant — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:48:28 +0000

Try setting up G-mail and trying from there…. Besides they give you 6684 MB of mail space and has many neat features that I am still learning about.
Well on that note I am off to the garden and will check back later with all of you :>)

By: nahant

nahant — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:45:05 +0000

Now wait a minute I am not some fictitious being or something :>) We can keep trying. I need to get to the garden and finish up as the ground is all tilled and I just have to attend to the planting…. Can’t wait to reap that which I have sown …. no pun intended on this religious leaning thread…:>)

By: eCAHNomics

eCAHNomics — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:43:39 +0000

Yes, and likewise shortly after winning the “Battle of Algiers,” the French lost Algeria.

The lessons are pretty obvious.

By: nahant

nahant — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:41:41 +0000

What I have taken from religion is the meaning behind the words… The actual word was just a way to convey the true meaning of what Christ was/is telling us. That is why he spoke in parables to make the meaning easy for those who had little or no schooling. I have tried to use these parable as a guide to how to live life and not a road map that must be followed to the letter. By the way who wrote the Bibles any way??? So for them to say what they say to me is just foolish… use His words as a guide to your behavior and learn to love as many as you can regardless of what they may look like or how they live their religious life. It has certainly worked for me as I grown older… Well thats my two cents… I have little tolerance for those who think that they are RIGHT, religion is the ONLY one and Any other Way is WRONG… They are missing out on some of the most wonderful parts of life!!

By: cinnamonape

cinnamonape — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:41:24 +0000

It’s one time-honored ways of “winning” against an insurgency (what the Brits did to the Boers, for example)

Within 15 Years of the Boer War the Brits had actually lost the South African “government”. The Boers outbred the Brits, who were relunctant colonialists. And when South Africa granted women the right to vote (the first nation to do so BTW) they went right ahead and supported Afrikaaner politicians. Soon the “liberal” coalition of Brits, business-oriented Afrikaaners from DeBeers, and the handful of mixed-race Coloreds allowed to vote was in the minority and slowly each group was marinalized or co-opted.

The Boer War created resentments as deep as the victory in WWI did, or the Civil War did. I can’t think of what Iraqis will think of the US 25 years on…but I doubt we will be even thought of by Shiites or Kurds as expelling a distasteful dictator.

By: eCAHNomics

eCAHNomics — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:41:03 +0000

I have to skip Huffington. I hear she’s a harridan about Hillary. If I were to be here, I’d not be able to be polite.