Thirteenth in a series
The other day, I pointed out that the tortures inflicted upon detainees at Gitmo were performed on American soil. The Supreme Court agrees with that interpretation and said so, in Rasul v. Bush, 542 U.S. 466 (2004).
The Administration seems to think that is hunky dory and makes a big distinction about the detainees not being given civil rights because they are not American citizens.
Respondents’ [ed note: President Bush is Respondent] primary submission is that the answer to the jurisdictional question is controlled by our decision in Eisentrager. In that case, we held that a Federal District Court lacked authority to issue a writ of habeas corpus to 21 German citizens who had been captured by U.S. forces in China, tried and convicted of war crimes by an American military commission headquartered in Nanking, and incarcerated in the Landsberg Prison in occupied Germany.
Rasul v. Bush, ibid. SCOTUS completely rejected that argument in Rasul.
This got me thinking about what else might be inflcited upon non American citizens on American soil.
A while back, Pach wrote a series [here and here] on internment camps that Michael Chertoff had built by the Department of Homeland Security with the capacity to hold large numbers of illegal immigrants. He also wrote about massive roundups of workers at a meatpacking plant.
Yep, the same Michael Chertoff who promised John Yoo that DOJ would not prosecute government torturers back when Mike was Chief of the Criminal Division at DOJ.
On page 11 of the Yoo 2003 Opinion [long pdf] he tells us that he checked with Skelator and that
"[t]he Criminal Division concurs in our conclusion that these canons of construction preclude the application of the assault, maiming, interstate stalking, and torture statutes to the military during the conduct of a war."
So, if it is OK to torture detainees at Gitmo who we merely suspected of violating or wishing to violate one or more US laws because they are not US citizens; does it not follow that ICE can torture illegal immigants (whose very presence in this country is prima facia evidence that the person has broken at the very least one immigration law) and it is also OK since that person is also not an American citizen?
Am I missing something here?
Where does it stop?
[Editor's note: This photo by takomabibelot features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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This just in: Sami al Hajj (sp?) is RELEASED from guantanamo bay on this day. He flew home to Khartoum, his hometown. See Democracy Now.
It might stop if someone went to jail for it… not jolly likely.
Recall, it’s only “torture” if the abuse is rendered as “punishment.”
Nothing else to see here, folks, just move along in orderly fashion…
It’s as Scalia says, It’s not punishment for a crime.
I will heal only after the disease is dug out of my government. To borrow a phrase: no magic wands of pardon.
In a room with no corners at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington DC.
Bush has either authorized or enabled others to do violence against the constitution under color of law.
All the carping between the Obama and Clinton camps pales in comparison to what Bush has done, and the dems cannot allow a McCain presidency four years to sweep it further under the rug.
Pickin’ it up here, boss.
Am I reading this “right”? The govt can arrest anyone it wants under the umbrella of “wartime” whether or not the arrested person has anything to do with acts of war? OMG.
“Most Unpopular Modern President” New Poll: now is anyone surprised?
I can’t call Bush “president” anymore.
Hey! No talking. You’re supposed to move along QUIETLY!
That’s what we call “spreadin freedumb”, Bush style.
Welcome to AmeriKuh
What do you like? In Tx there is a phrase something like A TX village just lost its idiot. Even that is tooooo kind.
You forgot LIEberty and just-as … fur oil.
It doesn’t stop, as far as I can see. I keep thinking about torture (the practice, not the legal justifications) in the context of what happens to American citizens on American soil - in American prisons.
I believe there is a close connection between treatment of prisoners in the US and the treatment of detainees. It’s not for nothing that people (like Grainger) with experience as prison guards were assigned to working with detainees in Abu Graib. And consider what will happen when people like that go back to their regular jobs after leaving Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
They can wiggle and squirm and protest everything is legal all they want.
It isn’t.
We Know that, they know that and they know that we know.
This isn’t Rumsfieldian.
There are known knowns.
Ask ‘em if they have any plans to travel overseas for a vacation, that tells me all I need to know.
Great post, LHP! And did you hear that Addington has deigned to grace the Congress with his presence by accepting Conyers invitation to testify per TPM? I figure if he didn’t think he could run rings around them, he wouldn’t have said yes.
That’s ok. He prefers to be called either “Decider”, “Commander Guy”, or “Majesty”.
Ain’t that the truth!
There is no “war”. There is no declaration of war. The “Global War on Terror” is not a “war”. Congress has not officially made a “declaration of war on “terror”. They have voiced opinions, and they throw the terms around 24/7, but there is no declaration of war. There are only authorizations to use military force which then become referred to as “Operation” this or that. Therefore, Chertoff’s and Yoo’s presumption of authorities permitted during the “conduct of war” is bullsh*t.
That is what is missing.
I thought it was only “punishment”, as in cruel and unusual, if the torture was rendered after adjudication.
If Sandman is around. Here is the entry I prepared for Mary Gade. It should be up later today in my scandals list.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....5733.story
I know thats right!
tragically, no
and we’re gonna ignore established protocols on child soldiers
Speaking of torture…did anyone hear Joe Scarborough brazenly proclaim that torture works this morning, while he tried to shootdown Mika’s protests. What a jerk.
OMG, Bush flapping his lips like it is a public service announcement.
His Most Serene Majesty el Presindente Jorge W.
SomozaBu’ush.OH! My goodness! You can’t bring up THAT subject.
There are JOBS involved.
Besides, there are no innocent people in prison or they would have been tortured.
Prison is ‘punishment’ not torture.
We give ‘em all a fair trail before we imprison them.
It’s not our fault if they can’t afford a Dream Team.
Obviously, the ‘unseen hand’ has seen fit to see that they (the bad guys and gals) they receive their just, and fitting JUSTICE.
What’s a little extra ‘fun and games’?
Who are we to question?
Ours not to reason ‘why’, ours ….
They don’t call him Joe theres a dead girl in your office Scarborough
for nothing.
And just because I am really p/o’ed today…Remember when lots of folks thought their plan was to “starve the beast” to do away with any safety net services. Could any of us known what a debacle we had ahead. I heard a wonderful speaker from the UTx School of Journalism…going hard against the media. He would add “media” to the military, industial complex. He thinks we have already past the tipping point of being over the cliff. Our myth of America as honest broker, peace maker has been completely exposed; we have set out of a cauldron of war. So what is next: who knows. Just really, really not what we have had during our empire building years. He argues it is not Gloomy when you can start speaking the truth.
Actually, I wonder why the interviewer, Leslie Stahl, did not do a better job (slaps my head, she’s a journalist!) of clarifying Scalia’s statement. She should have said, “So are you saying there is no offense if the torture is done prior to adjudication?” and let him answer that. Perhaps she might have mentioned that it is against international law by way of the Geneva Conventions to torture and no distinction seems to have been made as to whether the torturing occurs prior to judgment or not (I think).
lol
OMG, how many times a week are they planning to be trotting out president crankypants? It didn’t work very well, esp on privatizing social security when his approval ratings were a lot higher.
Anyone price flag pins lately? There must be a drop off in sales if 72% of unpatriotic americans think the country is going in the wrong direction.
Digg for such a great post by LHP!!
prior to adjudication, torture is not punishment, it is just plain assault.
You know, one of those felony things.
Actually it doesn’t stop with non-citizens. Padilla was transferred to the jurisdiction of the federal courts precisely to avoid a test of his previous status and treatment as a citizen held as an unlawful enemy combatant on American soil. I still draw a distinction between this kind of “American soil” and Guantanamo. The analogue case of a citizen held at Guantanamo to a non-citizen (Rasul) is Hamdi.
OMG, Shrub is an oilman, yes? His statements on the economies of oil demonstrate that he is either dumb as a box of rocks or lying through his teeth. OK, maybe a little of both…
Best thing Clusterfcck could do is ta go on an eight month long vacation in Crawford..Americans would cheer….
Just quit talkin- quit doin ANYTHING you piece of dogshit!
Anyone know if the ICC can try Bush/Cheney/et.al in absentia?
Exactly, why would we have to choose?
OT, but don’t miss this You Tube gaiilonfong posted downstairs.
It shows Carville, Stephanopoulos & Kantor discussing poll results, and Kantor says some very disturbing things without so much as a twitch from George and James.
Most ugly, and even though it was Bill’s and not Sen. Clinton’s campaign, someone still is gonna have lots of ’splainin to do.
in moments of magical 20-20 hindsight, I think if we’d just given him a walk-in closet full of uniforms and Cheney a trillion dollars, they might’ve just gone the f’ away - saving us untold loss in lives, reputation, principles, and a couple trillion dollars
TLinGA - we at chez cbl often refer to it as The Arbusto Presidency :D
“OMG, Shrub is an oilman, yes?”
_____________
Yeah. And what a spectacular career that was. Georgie Dry Hole.
Is that statement enough to impeach Scalia ? Oh right, it’s not on the table …
I guess that lends a little more weight to the “dumb” side.
I guess having to let Don Siegelman out of jail really pissed them off because now they’re just fucking with him.
http://www.leftinalabama.com/s.....aryId=1678
FWIW,
I believe that is a clip from the movie The War Room and HuffPo has a post up where Mickey Kantor denies totally ever having said the words he is accused of saying.
But of course, it does give everyone who opposes Senator Clinton an opportunity to clutch their pearls, act horrified and presume to believe that of course she is the most vile and evilest thing to ever come along, right?
I curious lately about the possible legal conflict between McCain’s purported eligibility for the Presidency, despite his 1936-ish birth in Panama, and the Administration’s contention that Guantanamo is beyond the full reach of American courts…hmmm…one or the other it seems…
((((( Fern )))))
… what happens to American citizens on American soil - in American prisons.”
Well said, it starts from within …
Opinions are like assholes. And his are clogged by a hemorrhoid the size of Uranus.
fuggeaboutit
Unfortunately , harder to impeach a judge than a politician. What’s a word for beyond impossible?
Yo, I’m eatin a boca burger over here! :)
B-bu-but … Americans were killed on American soil by non- Americans, which makes it a War …
See above
Hi LHP. Thank you much for this series.
We’ve been toying with a thunderstorm alert here for some time, and it’s finally gotten ominously dark as well as noisy out there, so I must sign off.
But I’ll be back for sure to read the whole thing as soon as I can. Your posts and discussions are wonderfully helpful to understanding this whole awful problem.
Bye for now…
Pelosi’d
OMG How COULD you?!
How many Bocas died just so you could satisfy your appetite?! *g*
from the wiki on Samuel Chase
LOL
I cannot remeber the case. However I am pretty sure I recall from Con Law that aliens on American soil only have the rights afforded them by Congress i.e. statute. The Case were handed down during the time that refugees (boat people)from Haiti I think were being turned away at sea because once they landed on U.S. soils that attained due process rights by Fed. Statute. The findings I believe also stated that if you are NOT on American soil and are NOT a citizen or resident of the US then you have NO rights at all (constitutional or statutory)unless CONGRESS ordains to give you some. That’s Congress not the EXECUTIVE. The executive has no say in it whatsover.
Should that be so hard? The last 2 lied about following precedent.
His years as POTUS has resulted in a Cash Cow for Oil men and the M.I.C.
This clearly shows he is not an idiot …
Speedy, You are good. You remember Con law.
*snort!*
President Bush
The American People have determined that your presence in the White House will not be necessary during the balance of your term….please leave the key under the mat as you depart.
Signed- A Grateful Nation
Thanks cbl2 @ 60 and nicely done, RevBev @ 63 !
Saw last night on Olbermann that Nelson Mandela is on the no-fly list because he was a “terrorist” in the 70s. I hope that the next prez, whether it’s Obama or Clinton cleans that crap up by Executive order/fiat if nothing else.
The authors of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution did not have a police state in mind 200+ years ago, but damned if Beloved Glorious Leader hasn’t managed to create one in just under eight years. Probably the only task he’s ever successfully completed in his adult life besides knocking up Laura (and that takes no talent at all).
Wow, good point.
Please indulge me in some idealism.
If we the people of the US feel our citizens have certain rights, would it not extend in a philosophical way that we believe all people have inalienable rights? I mean, if we were in charge of everybody…wouldn’t we extend the rights of humanity to them?
I.e. we treat Jeffrey Dalmer and Ted Bundys of our land better than we treat these detainees.
So while I can understand foreign people may not get certain privileges of citizenship, they are still people and it doesn’t necessarily follow that we can treat them like dirt.
Am I making sense?
Sorry, I am so late to the thread. Mu laptop died about 11 Am this morning and I have been on the phone with tech support trying to get online.
I am writing this on my bookkeeper’s workstation and will probably get kicked off when lunch hour is over.
It’s never easy
Waddya wanna bet that Botha and DeKlerk were not on that list ?
Why? How? Got links. Did US drop whatever charges, etc? Is this another “nevermind” ?
FYI. Dean on Goldwater’s opinion of St. McCain.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20080502.html
Read what they’ve done to our neighbors to the north in the name of Fighting Terrah.
I think the definition of “pelosied” is to ignore an issue due to lack of balls or respect for the constitution…
…I think the word we are looking for is Inconceivable!!!
Great post….gawd…what are we gonna do…:(
((((( LHP )))))
My Windoze laptop quit suddenly yesterday, then after 3 hours, started working again … might have been a “Labor Day” protest or something … *g*
Maybe we should consider your idea next time?
Wonder how many ‘next times’ we can survive, … assuming we get through this one?
I wouldn’t take that bet. I’m guessing neither of them was anything other than a “statesman” in the eyes of the powers that “were”.
You are making PERFECT sense!
Well, you know Bobby, those Canadians think they are above us …
I agree. I think originally that was the sense that non US citizens shouldn’t be afforded all rights of citizenship i.e. voting. But Due Process is kind of universal thing that ANYONE in America should be given because this is AMERICA. But the Current Admin. believe you ain’t sh*t if you ain’t American and even then if you ain’t the right kind of American. But the reasoning for black sites and Camp x-ray is to avoid due process because America is America. If you are here you get due process period, the end, you cannot change the constitution or case law from that without destroying the foundations of this Country.
I sometimes watch that MSNBC series “Lockup.”
Every day in this nation we manageably accord civilized due process to the worst incarcerated criminal monsters imaginable. The notion that a bunch of foreign enemy rag-clad irregulars pose such a DIRE existential threat to our nation as to preclude their being treated equivalently is simply fucking preposterous on its face.
It doesn’t have shit to do with “security”; it’s just about malevolent retribution.
707!
It almost seems like he is saying…
what sort of hippy crap is that?
December 2008 was a coup d’etat. Insiders like Richard Clark and others in the intelligence community understood what had happened by February 2009. It took many of us a little longer. My own realization dates to summer, 2002. None of this surprises me. Our government was taken over by a mafia.
Yep, and you gotta know somebodies gonna want to live blog that hearing
Makes me wanna burn one, dude…
whoops: I meant December 2000 and January 2001. Preview is your friend.
And “edit” would also be nice. “Show text” is cool, but “edit” would be swell.
Is Dec the Court date? I can still go right to the blue depression of that day?
IRRC, Didn’t we something to that effect in the declaration of independence? *g*
BINGO!
Swellacious, in fact, ’specially for them of us what is synapse-challenged, brain-finger and spelleratin’ wise …
This is OT, but it is a transcript of a man who confessed to the JFK assassination…verrrry interesting…check out all the mob links, and the political implications, etc…:
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/confession2.htm
But, but (stentorian tones) nine-eleven changed …
LOL. Some days I swear my IQ starts with a decimal point.
You too?
While it’s not an everyday thing, a number of federal judges have been succesfully impeached. I think there have been more impeachments of judges than of electeds
Drat … I thought my MENSA test misplaced a period …
be safe.
So…is that saying that if you torture, its not torture unless you prove it was torture after you charge someone with torture, because you had proof it was torture…but it wasn’t, because it wasn’t considered torture before you charged them with it which you can’t do, because it doesn’t exist until you charge them with it, which you can’t because…?
LHP, what are the chances of Alito, Roberts and/or Scalia getting impeached … not that I’m expecting this Congress to do so …
Didja ever see ‘The Densa Society Quiz”?
LOL.
Weren’t they both dead before the days of the list?
May i go off topic?
Thanks for that link Bobby. I knew that the paranoia was pretty bad, but OMG treating Canadians as terra-rists? Jeebus on toast…
The fatheads at DHS need a wake-up call in the form of a massive firing and restructuring. It has to be the most reactive agency in the government, hell it was born out of “reaction”… it’s got no cred, and no real mission except to piss off everyone it comes in contact with.
And maybe a coroner’s time-of-death inquiry regarding Clarence The Most Qualified?
You are reading it right. They are not likely to come to your house in the middle of the night in a Black Maria to take you away. Much easier simply to pick you up while you are driving down the Interstate to visit your Aunt Hattie. It would be an easy matter for them to jam your cell phone and ’disappear’ you and your car. I’m not saying this is happened; I’m only saying that nothing prevents it from happening. No one will ever know what happened to you.
It’s funny you say that, b/c now it is suddenly working again (After the tech guy got onthe road for a service call)
Thanks for the responses guys. (I had toddles off to read the Time Sanchez excerpt. wow.)
It just doesn’t make sense that we “decent” Americans can be so indecent to others. How we treat others defines us not the person so treated. Gee, I guess that makes me a big weinie, huh?
First of all, I thank you for your the first paragraph of your reply.
I don’t always have the time to read through each thread and didn’t see CHS’s response to the original post until later.
I’m troubled by your second paragraph, however. It kinda goes off the rails unnecessarily, IMHO.
How in the world did you get that out of my comment?
Yes I support Sen. Obama, but if someone from his campaign busted out with ‘worthless white n-bombs’ I’d have a problem with that as well.
Carville and Kantor are involved with her campaign. T