"As a nation, America is under the curse of God, even now."
I have to admit that I'm officially baffled by why whatever it is Jeremiah Wright thinks -- and not what John Hagee thinks -- is a big stinking deal.
Because my churchgoing experience -- and one I think I share with most other churchgoers -- is that the church community has always been more important than the pastor, and is the reason we have chosen to attend a given church. The pastors do their thing, and we usually agree, but sometimes disagree. But we attend because of the church, not the pastor. And it has been that way for me since I was young.
I belonged to a small Methodist church in Idaho Falls when I was a kid. One of our more memorable pastors was a fellow named Willis Ludlow, a very liberal man who even in the mid-1960s railed against the Vietnam War from the pulpit. This infuriated my father, the Goldwater Republican, and the rides home from church were often dominated by his grumbling. But we still attended every Sunday because it was our church.
I realize that things are different at a number of churches, especially those that specialize in charismatic fundamentalist rhetoric (and it's particularly so at churches that revolve around a narrow theological center, such as Christian Identity). But I don't think that fits the description of Trinity United Church of Christ. It's a huge church representing a significant mainstream black community. And leading pastors like Wright are significant figures within those communities, but they typically are not the reasons people like Obama attend them. They attend because of the community.
Maybe Hillary Clinton and John McCain would have walked out if they had heard incendiary rhetoric from the pulpit, as they claim. But a lot of people in fact stay put in such situations, because they understand that they're not always going to agree with their pastor. For many churchgoers, the pastor is up there to make them think, not necessarily to say things they agree with.
Of course, some folks seem to believe a pastor is there to tell them what to think. But that probably reveals more about them than anything that might be said about people who believe otherwise.
So it's one thing to sit still in the pews while the pastor says disagreeable things, because people have a range of good reasons for doing so. People do often change churches because they disagree with their pastors; but many don't, and they have a range of legitimate reasons for not doing so.
It's quite another thing, on the other hand, to actively pursue as a political candidate the endorsement of a religious leader who says extremist things -- because that pursuit clearly indicates full agreement with that preacher's beliefs. It's an all-out embrace.
Which, of course, is what John McCain did with Pastor John Hagee. And even after Hagee repeats his charge that Katrina was God's wrath directed at New Orleans, McCain not only blows off the connection -- observing only that Hagee endorsed him -- but the media continue to give him a free ride on the fact that McCain actively sought it. He admits it was a mistake, but still says he's "glad to have his endorsement."
And no one bats an eye.
Because, you know, black preachers who bring up things Americans don't like to talk about are much, much, scarier and much more important than influential white fundamentalists who want to help the Middle East blow up in a big mushroom cloud.
Bruce Wilson at Talk2Action has more on Pastor Hagee's extremism and America-hating rhetoric.
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you know what?
this might be just what we need to return this country to the secular origins it was founded
we are a nation of religious freedom, when a theologian has political power it WILL restrict the religions that are different then that theologian
because of these theologists we are actually teaching magic in science class, our children are taught to just stop searching, if they don’t know the answer then the answer doesn’t exist, it happened “because of magic”
our children are being to look for the supernatural and to look for magic whenever there is a question they don’t know the answer to
and this is just what these neo cons want, they do not want an educated populace, that will reduce their power
i think this complete ignores the role wright apparently played in helping to build that community - please don’t forget that the church had 87 members when he began his work there.
Hagee is not a pastor - he is a cult leader. Cults are usually devoted to the Leader. He also is a racist, a bigot and a homophobe. I hope he rants about how great McCain is all over the country - he will turn people off.
Oh Hell! Let the Rapture come and take all those fools! Then we can have some peace and rational conversations.
selise, we really need to get our politicians away from relgion, we need secular rule not
theological, theo ILLogical ruletee hee, I like that…theo ILLogical rule…tee hee
Excellent
there’s the thing, the rapture is a misinterpretation of a a recognition that era’s begin and end according to the constellation
the “rapture” is the changing from the fish to the water bearer.
someone missed a beat here with this “rapture” and “Armageddon” stuff… reallly
i strongly disagree - how is it a problem that politicians may (or may not) participate in a religious community?
GW Clusterfuck has now slaughtered 51 US troops in Iraq this month- the first month in the last seven that is over 40..
Nice job ya fuckin little murderin bastard.
teh can of worms
We need us some Liberation Theology in the churches here. Get away from the God-is-going-to-make-you-rich theology that these big box churches preach.
GW Clusterfuck’s Pentagon is now braggin about how many Iraqis it kills every few days. It claims that it’s only murdering “insurgents” but local docs say that the victimes are ordinary Iraqis who just happened to be in the wrong place when the 1,000 pound bomb was dropped.
Yes, the community is the reason. The pastor is important esp. if the church has an awful one then people clamor to get rid of her/him. But I belong to my fellowship because of the community not the minister. Most of us are seeking connection with our fellow travelers.
participating in community is better then participating in religious community that’s how
recognize the community and give it no greater weight then a community that is not religious
simple governance at it’s finest, inclusive instead of exclusive
An early OT but this should piss off Minnesotans:
John McCain is from Hell
The Hagees with their Armageddon dreams and assault on all our liberties, while actively lobbying politicians, is a direct threat to me. Wright’s words or deeds have yet to cross that sort of line with me in any way.
The way I’d put what Dave is saying is that a pastor might draw someone into church that first day, but it’s the people who are at the church that keep them coming back there week after week. Most folks continue their connection to a given church because of the people that make up community itself. That community includes the pastor, but is a lot more than just the pastor.
Nice post , David.
I think you touch on the complexities involved for people who struggle to understand the known and unknown and how it relates both inside and outside of themselves. It’s only human to live with one’s own cauldron and, at that level, it doesn’t require much explanation. I think most people get this regardless of faith or denomination, and for this reason, the overall short term change in opinion re Obama has not been that dramatic. We like to represent things as organized and clean on the surface, but most people understand it’s not underneath, and on balance are actually probably drawn to conflict in an otherwise safe environment. As such, there are likely many, many people who have observed what Obama has just been through and can relate to him in way that cuts through race and policy.
i have no idea what you are saying.
not blaming you - maybe i’m just being dense. but could you try again? and type slow?
thanks.
Saw the picture on NBC Nightly, I think, that someone linked to last night at Gorilla’s Guides of the young child killed. So very, very sad.
Hey, if Tweety riffs on and on and on and on and on and on and….about Reverend Wright, but doesn’t give equal coverage/discussion to Reverend Hagee, what does that say about his Catholic/religious values? Is he sufficiently his own man, or must he reject and denounce Hagee’s anti-Catholic screeds, and further, must Tweety disown John McCain for seeking the endorsement of such a bigoted religious extremist? And does this apply to Timmeh–ah’m askeered of the blonde woman with the funny accent–Russet, too?
uh-oh…there go paw-paw-paw-lenty’s veep hopes.
True. I’m more comfortable with a church where I love the old ladies and they love me than one in which there’s a real magnetic charismatic minister. I don’t want all that jazz, I want a hug!
as a politician there is absolutely no reason to recognise a community as “religous” or “Christian”, Jewish, Muslim
we help communities as a group of people regardless the reason they are a community
sure, we can say, “this is the christian community” but give it no more weight then “this is the southern california community”
we need to take religion from governing, we cannot have theology running our country
Nicely put. Thank you, Peter.
Great job, David. I know it’s great because I was thinkin’ the same thing. This whole idea of “I would have walked out” is bullshit. When a priest says something that pisses off congregants, some people get together and complain and say they’re going to write to the bishop. Most often they don’t and everyone keeps going back and it all blows over. Barack shhould be so lucky.
off to bed, early morning for me, have a good night all
Oh c’mon. It’s way early.
excellent post david!
mccain’s reasons for courting hagee are two-fold–’legitimacy’ in religious circles, and MONEY…..hagee brings in millions……they’re waiting for the general election……
when i heard things in church i didn’t like, like bringing the state into the church, i’d pop a tic tac……then when the congregation started agreeing, i left.
favorite minister of all time said one sunday, when i was growing up, that when he didn’t see someone in church, he figured they were spreading good cheer somewhere else while doing something fun…….there had been a buzz going around about people who didn’t come to church, he pretty much shut them up right then and there…..
and when the rev. wright thing first came out, i spent a looooong time on his church’s website….i went to every single solitary link…..even the store……some interesting books in there, gonna order a few when i get the extra money.
and i included this in letters today to people who carried rev. wright stories-they’re not even going with the quotes anymore, just the tail end of ’outrage’-and reactions-
one of the things he said is being misquoted, sometime somewhere i would love to hear what rev. wright actually said about gov/blacks/hiv
he said the u.s. is CAPABLE of doing it, not that they did it……CAPABLE…..of doing it.
this could have been nipped in the bud, but noone actually listens to what people actually say anymore.
i’m starting to think that programs don’t have researchers anymore, just people who book guests……told them i’d be glad to help.
nite perris, i’m right behind you, going out of town tomorrow, still have to pack.
don’t necessarily disagree - in general.
but in the case of wright, one must consider that church membership went from under 90 to the thousands (iirc 6000?). don’t think that makes wright just another member of the community - it also makes him a community builder. and, i’d think, the kind of community that wright would work to build is not the same kind of community that someone like hagee would work to build. the community is, in some ways, a reflection of those who work to build it (and i’m not saying that wright was the only builder).
also, wright was at tucc for decades - in this case (unlike, i think, most ucc congregations?) wright and the church community were not two separate entities.
Ah yes! The old Vietnam standard. Any dead = Victor Charles updated for the twenty-first century - Any dead = Insurgent terrorist.
If Hillary Clinton finds Jeremiah Wright so offensive and outrageous, why was he invited to the prayer breakfast at the White House when her husband was seeking support and pastoral guidance during the Lewinsky drama and subsequent impeachment?
Huh, why?
And we can have their stuff, too!
political cover?
Sometimes they splinter off and start their own church with their own views. Take the LDS group outta Texas fer example. They believe themselves to be x-tians like any other x-tian group. Just happens to be that their teenage girls get knocked up early by church elders. They can’t have any objects that are red in color around them, cuz that’s Jesus’ comin’ back color.
Whatever anyone says, the Goddamn…. gets to me big time! In this case, it’s America.
Christians like to believe that their God (whatever “their” means) has a plan, and some of these preachers, many of them believe:
a) They know God’s Plan
b) they have an obligation to take on whomever deviates from their understanding of this plan.
‘cuse me but we don’t know the plan, and only when this wold has ended can we even suspect what it is. So, while the interference in the supposed plan is part of the plan (why else is it there?) they, above all should know better.
At every moment, that plan is unfolding, and what doesn’t happen is also part of the plan.
Saying God damn anything or anyone is a terrible affront to a god I have agreed to serve.
IMO, anyway.
I am so sick and tired of the Wright affair… Can we please move on to the real issues and concerns…! 8-( This is not directed at FDL per se…
You’re welcome.
Let’s just say I’m rather familiar with the dynamic. *g*
Not sure if they get to take that sh*t with them or not.
And before it gets here, you know, we have to have a major war in the Promised Land so the Jews can be fully converted (snark). It scares me crazy that some people truly believe this…so let the wars begin again again again.
rw—you said american dead, here’s the iraqi numbers
iraqi numbers for april
925 dead
2,605 wounded
but it’s not just iraqi, those are the numbers just for SADR CITY.
nite pups
take care
True, but Wright and TUCC are not identical, either.
OT– Mr. Moore doing a very nice job on King’s show.
David you it the point right i=on the head of the nail!! The UCC church is a very welcoming church and accepts all on their journey to Christ! What an individual pastor is not as important as the overall community and what it provides to the faithful. McCain unlike Obama did go after Hagee’s endorsement for political reasons and thus should never be given the free ride he gets for this. But we all know why this happened the right wing controls the behind the scenes of all the main stream media thanks to the FCC allowing the ownership of the media to be concentrated in just a few hands. This needs to be changed to the way it was before the Bush family allowed it to happen.
Scott Horton has an interesting interview with An Interview with Tom Farer, Author of ‘Confronting Global Terrorism’
Which touches on the way the neocons have been slowly but surely taking over the reigns of power. It is not quite on target on this issue you have posted but by reading it you will gain some incite to what is happening to this country at the hands of the right wing of this country!
Indeed,
What are some ‘looked up to…’ why is it a requirement that, ‘We respect their faith…’
Do we respect the faith of the schizophrenic homeless man who claims he can see aliens and ACTS UPON WHAT HE ‘SEES’!
No.
We do not.
We lock his ass up so that his ‘visions’ cannot hurt others.
Total lunacy is allowing the likes of Hagee, Wright and the fat, crazed mob of white men who run the ‘evangelical’ arm of ‘The Church’ to not only walk the streets but to gain control of the government.
What do you think is going on when the Presdient kneels in the Oval office with Pat Robertson to ‘pray’?
one can only hope… but unfortantely hidden deeply behind the constitution is the reason for that wall … the puritans, the witch-burners …
Pastor John Hagee: Rapture Ready
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig
“As a nation, America is under the curse of God, even now.”
— Pastor John Hagee
That says everything we need for a TV commerical no the Terrorists are not evil according to John McCain’s Preacher. America deserved to be attacked on 9/11…and if you believe that, if you HATE AMERICA THAT MUCH!, fine go vote for John McCain.
If you think America should get out of Iraq and should have rather gone after Ossama bin Laudin in Pakistan WHERE OSSAMA HAS BEEN HIDING ALL ALL THESE YEARS WHILE WE WASTE OUR TIME IN IRAQ THEN VOTE DEMOCRAT!
sorry forgot the link, too many things to do…….
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO.....index.html
I’m sorry to go OT, but sometimes, plain talk is just refreshing. Michael Moore is on Larry King (I know, but I’m waiting for Top Chef to start) and he just said that folks are getting a check from the government this week that they can just hand it over to Bush’s oil buddy friends for more gas! LOL
Maliki told the Iraqi Parliament today; ‘Either you’re with me, or you’re against me…’
A sit-in? Maliki has to deal with DFHs, too?
Happy 75th, Willie!!!
i never said their were. i think that is a strawman.
What?
You think the ‘Iraqi Parliament’ don’t do Kabuki?
They in the government there are in no hurry to throw us out. They let the British hang around for 40 years. Still some dough to be made off the idiot Americans.
Let the negotiations begin.
have you actually listened to wright’s entire sermon?
Media Consolidation must be smashed to bits.
so, no need for bemusement as to why the media are not being fair in their treatment of Wright and Hagee … it is because the media have inbuilt bias in favor of the State and its corporate symbiotes, something that has been obvious for a long, long time.
now, while Al Franken is very apt in describing right-winger’s patriotism as akin to the unthinking, pre-rational orientation of a 4 year old, at what age is the progressive blogosphere stuck at, continually aghast at the discovery that the state apparatus doesn’t play fair?
the propaganda arm isn’t fair to Obama’s pastor, the legal arm wasn’t very fair to Don Siegelman, the Executive branch hasn’t been fair with Congressional subpeonas, the military isn’t fair with it’s stop lossing and wretched treatment of veterans, the (D) party in Congress wasn’t fair to voters who naively believed they would do anything about the calamitous war except try to make it a wedge issue for 2008…
hmmm maybe the whole system is not fair?
maybe Obama’s Reverend was right, he spoke the truth, and Obama scampering away from the uncomfortable truth reveals that he’s not really the candidate of change in any meaningful way?
Wow. That’s a plea to Sadr to end the cease fire.
This is totally off-topic, although not really. Former Governor Don Siegelman of Alabama has been declared a “special offender” and has been restricted in his travel. Wonder who all those interviews upset…and was it someone in Washington or in Alabama? He’s not a flight risk, so you have to wonder who pulled those strings.
Siegelman noted yesterday on Thom Hartmann’s show that his defense fund was pretty puny. Can’t remember the exact wording he used, but it made me think there’s enough to feed the lawyers a nice meal at Burger King and that’s about it.
We Alabama progressives encourage everyone to donate to his defense fund. KKKarl’s paw prints are all over this one. As all firepups know, $10 helps when hundreds - thousands? - of people kick in a little.
You can donate via PayPal AND catch up on the latest news, interviews, etc. here.
50 members of parliament went to Sadr City on Saturday with a member from every political bloc in Iraq, except Maliki’s own SCIRI party or Dawa which is also affiliated with Maliki…
Tweety, Modo Sean Hannity , just how many Catholic news people are out there who are jumping on Wright but letting Hagee go over his “Great Whore ” remark? Sure I know Tweety and Modo are a little to busy wondering if Obama is an elitist.
But in my non elitist world/neighborhood calling a woman a Whore or heck just calling a religious Catholic’s Church a Whore is a real good way to get beat up BY CATHOLICS!
Why are Tweety, Modo, and Sean ignoring this? Because they don’t think McCain has a chance in hell of being President anyway so why bother?
In a change election the GOP is desperate to hold on to enough of the racist South to sustain a Senate Veto, which if they don’t get they won’t have any power?
Or could it be that Catholic Racists have all somehow got jobs in the media?
I left out this part…
The Americans launched a “reckless” assault on Sadr city during the sit-in by GZ parliamentarians:
Aswat al-Iraq quote the MP from the Sadrist bloc Maha Adel as saying in a telephone conversation with their reporter that:
“U.S. aircraft and armoured vehicles launched a reckless attack against Sadr City”
that the American attack had been “vicious” and that they had seen a person killed by sniper fire.
I cover it in this post…
A plea? More like an ultimatum…!
Since we have Arrianna Huffington coming this next Saturday to talk about her book you migh want to be aware that Timmy is upset, from C&L:
Timmy is a _______________(Fill in the Blank)
Paul Begala was shouting about that on AC 360 last night
i used to always watch meet the press, but not after a few viewings of his unskilled and biased skewered questions
(bonger left you a present in the last thread….)
The Missing Link
. . . sock puppet for Dick Cheney.
IIRC, I believe that was the sworn testimony given at the Libby Trial.
Huffington is on there tonight; AC is off.
late to the party here.
What Wright built was an institution. That’s what most of us who are in this business want to do. If it were just a personality cult it would fold like a house of cards if something happened to us and that is definitely not what we want to see.
that being said, I do think that Wright has way to much of his ego invested in this whole thing. He has much to be proud of. He’s kind of blown that sky high at this point which is too bad.
yeah, AC is still down here with us, he drinks at my local watering hole in the 9th ward…
And Bush will be singing; The ICC won’t let me be Or let me be me so let me see
huh.
guess it’s pretty clear who Maliki is working for, eh?
About time we get some traction on this story.
good point - wright helped to build and institution, but the community was part of that.
i did not mean to imply that i thought it was a personality cult - i don’t.
wrt to the ego - i don’t think i understand why you say he has too much ego invested? what has he blown sky high?
punkinhead
I don’t think anyone here is surprised that the system isn’t fair. I’m certainly not. But that doesn’t prevent me from pointing out injustices and dysfunctions and plain old malice when they happen, and working to defeat them. I refuse to let cynicism paralyze me.
In the fall, I had a great po’boy in the 9th Ward. I had spent a lot of years in NO. Is AC a friendly bar guy?
azmatt at 62—here’s an address list, abc is on it……maybe msnbc, too, for people to write about russert and arianna–and i’m not even a very big fan of either…….but there it is…….media list, tv, radio, print media. not everyone, but covers a lot of them….
and az, i got our extension agent on the call-in radio show yesterday, he was fantastic! local tv is working on booking him for an interview……..the show covered all kinds of things…….was great…..knew you could appreciate what that means…..you all do so much in the community, unsung heroes!
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=111
(i am not looking at comments as i load this because i will see something else and i will never get packed and into bed……. not looking.)
R E S P E C T tell you what that means to me …
He’s very friendly if you’re a barely legal dusky hued male.
What does his ego have to do with it really?
I believe he is talking about and living his ethos.
Well, one insider says she was booked on Keith Olberman and Morning Joe to talk about her tome — and then unbooked. “These are shows that call her regularly to come on. And then the word came from on high that she had to be cancelled.”
Brave New Films:
It seems that Arianna Huffington has run up against the impenetrable wall that is Tim Russert’s ego. Huffington, who is currently on tour for her new book Right Is Wrong: How The Lunatic Fringe Hijacked America, Shredded The Constitution, and Made Us All Less Safe, will be appearing on CNN, ABC, and CBS. She had been booked on Morning Joe and Countdown with Keith Olbermann as well, but those bookings were suddenly and inexplicably cancelled.
NBC confirmed that Huffington wouldn’t be booked on any NBC-affiliated show to promote her book, but refused to explain why. Huffington’s people say that this is Tim Russert’s doing, that Russert is out for revenge because Huffington called him a “conventional wisdom zombie” in her book and devoted seven pages to faulting Russert for allowing his Meet the Press guests to go unchallenged (not to mention HuffPo’s RussertWatch).
Oh, did the poor widdle WATB get his feelings hurt? Or were Arianna’s words just a little too close for comfort?
Filed Under: Blogs, MSNBC, Meet the Press/Tim Russert, NBC
http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....-nbc-news/
Arianna’s been banned because Tim has such a fragile ego? Or he’s worried that his Rep as a Hack will hurt his chances at hosting another debate.
All of the branches of the Christian faith teach that it is God’s Plan (and therefore their plan) to convert the entire world to x-tianity (eventually or ASAP). IMHO, this is a dangerous proposition. It does not permit peaceful co-existence. It is not inclusive. Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and all others MUST be converted or be damned. IMHO, Muslims are no more wacky than christians (or any other religious group). They too believe primarily in conversion or damnation of the out-group(s).
TMI
Not for the Iraqis… Gorilla’s Guides and Badger have constantly said he’s in bed with both Shrub/Cheney and the Iranians… As I’ve noted before, Maliki’s Badr Brigades actually fought against the Iraqis during the Iraq/Iran war…!
Since he is Russert shouldn’t he be a potatohead?
my point exactly.
thank you CTuttle.
His messenger is um, um, Crocker channeling Cheney.
No, hackworth, that is not the case for every strain of Christianity. To point out just one error, many mainline denominations do not believe that the Jews must be converted.
…excellent perspective, particularly about the church, not the pastor, being the glue that binds congregations.
Curious how so many of the wingnut bloggers and radio jerks who were calling for Obama to repudiate Wright are now taking the tack that “Obama threw his pastor under the bus”, making the transition to the other side of the coin overnight.
Just more proof that Obama’s “pastorgate” was just another straw man for the media to knock down. Now they will try to vilify him for saying “enough is enough.”
That is something we really need to harp on everytime Bush and McCain start talking about Iran spreading terrorism.
I wonder if BushCheneyCo will be able to prop Maliki up through his regional elections in October and ours in November. The entire operation seems very fragile, as if it cannot withstand much pressure from anywhere at anytime.
Although this coming weekend’s a new moon, so we’ll see what that brings….
Cooper should be photographed more with his friends. His 360 show does society a great disservice. It is a mouthpiece for right wing idealogy. That makes it anti-enlightenment and anti-gay. Coop is a money-grubbing hypocrite.
That is not accurate about All Branches. There is much church work that is interdenominational, not for conversion, respect for other religions, etc.
There’s also a “too late” meme that’s quite popular among the bobbleheads. Apparently, Obama should have denounced and repudiated one day sooner; now it looks like he IS just another politician responding to media pressure.
In other words, Barack can do no wright.
(But it wasn’t a bus, it was a helicopter.)
I couldn’t believe that Kagan told Tweety today, that half the armaments that has killed or wounded our troops was provided by Iran… The drum beat goes on…! 8-(
Though I agree with a lot, if not mos,t of what he said, the way he did it was inflammatory. Not being able to see into his mind or heart it is hard to know what his motivation was—anger . . at whom, Obama? the Press? I don’t know. But the show with Moyers de-fused the early round of Wright bashing very well. I can’t understand throwing all of that away unless the ego is just taking over. And the way he answered the really really stupid and insulting questions only added fuel to the fire. He’s a very smart guy. He could have adroitly turned the questions back on themselves.
I find it all just so disappointing. He’s done so much for his community and now he has made himself into a caricature. YMMV.