Twelfth in a series
The Washington Post is reporting on the use of unnamed, unknown drugs involuntarily administered to detainees at Gitmo. Not Abu Ghraib, not some black site operated by another country, GITMO; on American soil.
My nausea has returned. You know when I first read the 2003 Yoo memo [pdf] a few weeks ago, I was physically sick, and sad, so very very sad. It just killed me that a lawyer, a lawyer with the benefit of the very best education this country could provide, could have taken all that skill and debased and perverted his professional expertise to produce a memo that would be used to justify torture. It's no different than a doctor violating his oath to "do no harm" perverting his skills to perform forced sterilizations, or grotesque mutilations and amputations in the name of "medical experimentation" upon unwilling victims.
We have discussed in the comment threads how these memos could have created the sort of anything goes mindset that led to the depredations at Abu Ghraib.
But Gitmo is different. Gitmo is American soil! We recently learned that White House officials at the highest ranks toured Gitmo and personally observed detainees being questioned using the "enhanced interrogation techniques."
They WATCHED!
They watched, they had the power to stop it and they refused to use that power to stand up to the President and Vice President. No Comey-like threats of mass resignation. No Diaz-like attempts to notify the Red Cross.
Scott Horton thinks that the cart may have come before the horse.
It increasingly appears that the Bush interrogation program was already being used before Yoo was asked to write an opinion. He may therefore have provided after-the-fact legal cover. That would help explain why Yoo strained to take so many implausible positions in the memos.
It also appears that government lawyers had told Bush administration officials that some of the techniques already in use were illegal, even criminal. In fact, a senior Pentagon lawyer described to me exchanges he had with Yoo in which he stressed that those using the techniques could face prosecution. Yoo notes in his Pentagon memo that he communicated with the Criminal Division of the Justice Department and got assurances that prosecutions would not be brought. The question becomes, was Yoo giving his best effort at legal analysis, or was he attempting to protect the authors of the program from criminal investigation and prosecution?
In any case, Yoo kept the program running. Even the man who came in to run the Office of Legal Counsel after Yoo's departure, Jack Goldsmith, has written that he understood Yoo's project this way. Goldsmith also rescinded Yoo's memos.
Did they decide to deal with the inevitable criminal prosecutions by getting John Yoo to write an after the fact cover up OLC memo? If so, it would explain the precision with which he describes the criminal acts--because he had been advised which crimes had to be covered up.
If the memo is indeed "after the fact" there are two important things that flow from that:
1) It means that Yoo protestations that this is merely his completely unfounded and outside the mainstream but honestly held legal opinion, are demonstrably bullshit; and
2) That the memos are UTTERLY, UTTERLY USELESS as a legal defense. You cannot claim that you relied on the opinion when you tortured that detainee, if the opinion did not even exist on the day you committed the torture.
[Editor's note: This photo by takomabibelot features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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So, LHP!
lhp!
This is so sickening.
This is overwhelming. Between Christy’s last post about our Non-health care system and this one I think I am going to be sick. Where do I store all of this information without loosing my mind?
Well, technically Gitmo is not US soil. It is rented from Cuba under an agreement that dates back to the end of the Spanish-American War. It is US controlled soil. It is this ambiguity that led to the Bush Administration choosing it as an appropriate legal blackhole in which to drop detainees. SCOTUS has said this isn’t so but being a reactionary entity it has sought to accomodate the illegality as much as possible.
So if we can find even one waterbaording BEFORE the Yoo memo, those involved would have no legal cover?
Boxturtle (Be still, my heart!)
In the Scalia interview, he said that “cruel and unusual punishment” has nothing to do with “torture”, because torture is not punishment. Ummm….so waterboarding you because you aren’t cooperating isn’t “punishment”…it isn’t punishing you for not cooperating in an interrogation? WTF is he talking about….
SCOTUS says it’s American soil, so legally, it’s American soil.
And in the Decision SCOTUS essentially said that because it is American soil, the constitution actually applies.
Hi LHP, and Thank You for this post.
Gonna repeat something EPU’d downstairs. Just as relevant here & still haven’t simmered down from my current hissy-fit at gummint… Wrote this [below] to our Sen. Voinovichy this morn. Useless. Sick. *sniffle*
Scalia is a third rate mind inhabiting a lawyer’s body. Basically, he has his ideology and tortures the reasoning and the law to fit it.
When was Qatami tortured…pre-Yoo memo or after?
I just started reading “Shock Doctrine.” The first thing Klein talks about is mind control experiments using sensory deprivation and mind altering drugs. Now this?
I’m gonna be sick.
Not very bloody likely, given this administration’s tendency towards destroying evidence.
Lame “definition-of-’IS’”ness parsing. What we have documentably done violated Geneva, period.
YEP, further, if we can prove that the people who “relied” upon the memos knews that the memos were after the fact for other indentical uses of a given method, they probably won’t have much cover either.
I’m not talking about the interrogators on the ground so much as those above them in the chain of command. I’m talking Bush, Cheney, Addington, Rummy, Condi, their various general counsels. That level. If the memo is after the fact, they could be in deep deep fertilizer
That’s a very apt comparison of Yoo to doctors like Mengele, and is a reminder that doctors, too, were torture personnel along with him.
This is fucking intolerable. When the hell does impeachment get back on the table?
Is there anyway to know whether Yoo’s first memo was backdated?
Wouldn’t that mean he admitted, in print, to obstruction of justice?
For continuing in-depth coverage of torture, ondelette provides much insight at humanityagainstcrimes.blogspot.com
heh.
has anyone ever pondered how that humungous ego fits in that brain pan?
often suspected the skull as solid bone, thru & thru.
Shock Doctrine was so upsetting I had to ration how many pages I read in a single sitting, otherwise I would just cry.
I’m not sure that is what SCOTUS said. It is just factually incorrect. I think what they said and feel free to correct me is that the Executive Branch could not create a legal space outside the purview of the federal courts.
testimony, computer forensics
That’s how the Gov’t caught Computer Associates backdating contracts
It will not be back on the table. Sadly.
LHP, thanks for another excellent post in your series on the human rights crimes that Bush, Cheney, and Yoo have brought upon our nation.
Along with the attorneys and govenment officials who brought this about, the collborating health care professionals - especially the physicians and psychiatrists - are equally culpable, and equally depraved.
As Nuremberg teaches, “following orders” is no excuse. May none who are complicit in these crimes ever be free of the threat of prosecution should they step off American soil.
And you are dead right about the use of involuntary drugs on American soil. Jose Padilla’s legal team submitted a motion (? not sure if that is the proper legal term) describing use of psychotropic meds when he was in the Naval Brig on the continental US.
Thanks for illuminating this sordid chapter of the Bush Reich - and of our nation’s history.
Dear Teacher,
Please excuse the entire Bush Administration. They were ethically sick.
If congress is the check to balance an insane executive, could there be a more demonstrative example of Nancy Pelosi’s irresponsible statement upon taking her position as Speaker of the House, “Impeachment is off the table?”
When, in recent history, has impeachment EVER been more called for. It makes me sad, too. So very sad that the first woman Speaker could be such a worthless bureaucrat when these circumstances really required so much more.
I guess, on the plus side, gender is obviously not an issue because the congress has been sorely lacking in leadership from any quarter.
Yes, it is just too sad.
Seems to me a legal opinion is just that an opinion. It can not be considered the law until it is made into one.
“We recently learned that White House officials at the highest ranks toured Gitmo and personally observed detainees being questioned using the ‘enhanced interrogation techniques.’ “
This is Evil. Disgusting, vile, beyond contempt. I most sincerely pray that the Wrath of God fall upon these evil, evil people.
I don’t even know what country I’m living in any more. It isn’t the one I was born in, that’s for damned sure.
“were”?
Remember the 60 Minutes episode with Castro? He had a drawer full of uncashed US Federal Government checks that were rental payments for Guantanamo.
You and I are on the same page. My Dad left a leg behind in WWII Europe in 1944 for THIS?
Scalia’s point was: one big middle finger for all of you that don’t like it. My paraphrasing of his interview: “Everything I say is Gospel and everyone that disagrees is wrong. Torture is fine because it was the ‘great’ President I selected that did it. Any judge ho disagrees with me on any subject is an ‘activist judge’ (euphemism for Democrat or liberal). I can give the Constitution any interpretation I like because I am always right.”
and so on with the same BS. Clearly a lot of cases where Scalia’s decision went against the intent of the framers of the Constitution we off-limits to CBS (e.g. Lawrence v. Texas where, responding to a falsely reported - actually fabricated - weapons disturbance in a private residence, Houston police entered petitioner Lawrence’s apartment and saw him and another adult man, petitioner Garner, engaging in a private, consensual sexual act. Of course Scalia railed on about the decision, but refured to talk about the 4th Ammendment where: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. No in that case the intent of the framers is not important, only the condemnation of homosexuals.)
The Hopi people believe strongly that if you do something wrong that you will pay for it, that it will effect those close to you. Having been on the Rez for 16 years I rather believe that.
you’re talking about a “person” who gets his jollies from participating in canned hunts. i marvel that they even bother to uncage the birds.
The own/rent analysis has not been really used in international law to determine sovereign soil issues. Some embassies are on rented land, yet universally recognized to be the sovereign soil of the country which sends the Ambassador.
Also, the “rent” thingy is often just a face saving fig leaf. The WH was arguing your position and saying that therefore the Consitution and laws of the US did not apply (I’m oversimplifying). SCOTUS did not agree though it did engage in dicta about differnt types of US held territory. For example the green zone is occupied and controlled by the US, but we make no claim to it and specifically say we want to give it back.
We don’t pay rent for it. Yet, at the moment we control it. SCOTUS was making those kinds of distinctions in the dicta to their holding.
“Anthony” (as Bu’ush once called him) Scalia, Jurisprudential Legend-In-His-Own-Mind.
Do we know exactly what date Yoo became “involved”? Do we know who might have been tortured earlier? Names? Anything in Afghanistan right after 9/11? What about all those people that were seized in Detroit right after 9/11…I seem to remember that thousands of Muslims were rounded up and disappeared…shop owners, etc. I don’t know what happened to that story. I’ll bet anything that someone got the “treatment”…I wonder if there are any suppressed stories from any that were released…if they were, in fact, released.
Vafunculo, Tony.
I’m wondering why Scalia is all over the place right now…the sixty minutes interview and today a little lecture and Q&A with high school students…Hmmmm. Something must be up. Maybe he wants to be McCain’s VP…
Errol Morris is on wnyc.org talking about his film about what really went on at Abu Ghraib, “Standard Operating Procedure.” He characterizes it as a gulag, a concentration camp.
You’re asking for a timeline there, Missy? It will take me weeks to do. But I could give it a try. Golly, i need a research asistant, I am so NOT a google goddess.
You should see EW or PW, ask the breeziest little rhetorical question to one of them in an email, and whommmft, 5 links come back to you in under a minute. I am so envious of that skill. I am a very slow reseacher.
Maybe they snuck off base and gathered some Cuban soil to spread around the rooms. I’m sure Bush would believe that’s not on ‘Mercan soil anymore.
Just attention-seeking behavior, perhaps. The one thing of which Fat Tony has a greater abundance than contempt for the rule of law is ego.
1,826 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“My nausea has returned.”
Oh bless yer heart looseheadprop, I feel yer pain but this can not be a surprise to you. What did you expect once we knew that torture had been sanctioned at the highest levels and that our country had forsaken our own troops with the abrogation of the Geneva conventions? We have been whistlin’ past the graveyard for 7 years, arguin’ about how we get rid of a lawless pimple when the fascist cancer has taken our heart.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND!!
Our system is broken, our life as Americans as we knew it is comin’ to an end and the folks who brought us all a this are still pullin’ our strings and we are runnin’ around pullin’ our hair out and arguin’ about how we get back somethin that has been dead and gone for some time.
We have all the evidence that we need to impeach Cheney and Bush in that order and then fight out the election over the body of the fascist oligarchy. If we don’t…and if we nominate a fascist Democrat to run against the fascist Republican, our arguments over what happened will be continued in the gulags of our own cities.
Can’t be. They would have to replace him. I don’t think that the dems would confirm another neoconjob before the election.
oh wait……
I’m wondering why Scalia is all over the place right now
bookwhoring
Isn’t all torture used as punishment? Isn’t its purpose primarily to punish the recipient and intimidate his allies?
The sign in the picture doesn’t quite say it.
Torture isn’t wrong. Torture is evil.
:~)
Yep. Exactly.
If lovin’ you is wrong, I don’t wanna be right.
It’s both wrong and evil. And sick and depraved. Which is why every civilized country on Earth avoids it.
1,826 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
America is a terrorist state…repeat after me: “My country has been stolen and my history has been contaminated and if WE don’t change it right now we are all guilty and deserve what we get from the rest of the world”
KEEP THE FAITH, THE CHOICE HAS BEEN MADE FOR US!!
Well it looks like the good old days of Ed Meese are back:
What a fucking disingenuous asshole Meese was. He’d fit right in with this crew.
Ahhhh…Mickey Meese! Yeah. That assclown.
And we complained about Clinton’s “It depends on what the meaning of “is” is!” This statement of Scalia depends on what the meaning of “punishment” is. Apparently, he thinks the cops or soldiers or interrogators can do anything to anyone as long as it’s before they get convicted of anything. How twisted is that! Didn’t I read somewhere that Yoo’s memo allowed interrogators to threaten to crush the gonads of a detainee’s young son if he doesn’t divulge something? Or was that just a bad nightmare?
Yep - on both counts. In Latin America, the widespread knowledge that oppressive regimes used torture served as a “force multiplier’ to suppress public dissent.
I can’t find the reference here: may have been Penny Lernoux’s great book Cry of the People or one of Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.’s works.
In any event, the torture techniques used throughout Latin America when the US fought for the megacorps against popular rule were systematically taught at the School of the Americas - our military’s finishing school for future dictators (and the torturers and assasins upon which they relied).
That’s yet another reason I so appreciate lhp’s series - torture affects not just the victim (and the torturers), but the whole society. Need to root out the whole thing wherever it springs up, lest fear become another weapon for the rulers.
Blowback from the School of the Assassins - on a US miltiary base near
youYoo?Here’s something…
http://www.metrotimes.com/edit.....sp?id=2734
“Attorney General Ashcroft refuses to provide the names of detainees rounded up as part of a nationwide dragnet. Incredibly, he refuses to do so because he claims to be concerned about their rights to privacy. As if there could be a greater violation of a person’s privacy than to be locked inside a jail cell.
Just how many people — mostly Arabs and Muslims, mostly men — have been nabbed in the crackdown since Sept. 11 remains unclear.
The Justice Department, according to the most recent reports, says that some 550 of the 1,100 or so apprehended remain in custody. Most have been charged with minor immigration violations. No more than 10 have been held as material witnesses suspected of having firsthand knowledge of the terrorists attacks.
But lawyers familiar with the dragnet tell Metro Times that the Justice Department’s 550 figure is deceptive because it represents only those in federal custody. An untold number are also being held by state and local authorities. Part of the reason the number remains untold is that the Justice Department refuses to address Freedom of Information Act requests filed by a broad coalition of groups trying to determine exactly who is being held and why.
“What’s being done is totally without logic,” says Detroit criminal attorney Bill Swor, a member of Michigan’s Arab-American Bar Association. “These people are not being held because they pose any real danger, or because the government is afraid they are going to run away. What we’re seeing is the raw exercise of power, not the administration of justice.”
As a board member of the Arab-American group ACCESS, Swor is involved in coordinating the defense of about two dozen detainees, and personally represents at least three of the people in custody.”
“evil” describes actions that are sick and depraved and (implicitly) wrong. Just because an action is wrong, though, doesn’t mean it is evil.
Gotta get in the car for a little bit. am bringing laptop with me, will be back before the end of the thread.
I thought Scalia said that waterboarding wasn’t punishment because it occurred prior to conviction & punishment follows conviction. So by that logic, it’s OK to torture a suspect, but not OK to torture a convict.
Congratulations, Adie, for your excellent letter! Can I use it for Kyl? Or McCain?
“And we complained about Clinton’s “It depends on what the meaning of “is” is!” This statement of Scalia depends on what the meaning of “punishment” is. Apparently, he thinks the cops or soldiers or interrogators can do anything to anyone as long as it’s before they get convicted of anything. “
_____________
That is indeed the gist of his observation. Torturing convicts as “punishment” is illegal in his view, whereas abusing suspects in the very same manner to get allegedly critical information is not “torture.”
per -
http://emptywheel-torture-tape-timeline
August 1, 2002: “Bybee Memo” (written by John Yoo) describes torture as that which is equivalent to :the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.”
Yup! Brass knuckles in the cop shop.
Excuse ME? This man must have a very twisted sense of punishment. What does he consider what they are doing if it’s prior to a conviction - discipline?
Original intent or in other words the Constitution as interpreted by ouija board. It’s so much hocus pocus that like intelligent design is not used to prove a point but avoid having to do so.
“Administrative methods of investigation”
*splorf* That’s a new keyboard you owe me, Dr. Pepper NEVER cleans up.
Boxturtle (Especially when blown through your nose)
Is that really the kind of logic we want in a justice of SCOTUS? He’s a head in the sand asshat.
Yeah..but IOKIYAR, huh?
Prior to conviction=interrogation. I’m not defending Scalia, just repeating what I thought he said.
Yeah, but this government, or administration has been known to destroy hard drives and backups, or have them wiped seven times, which cleans the evidence away. This is as thoroughly corrupt as I’ve ever seen! No, I take that back…it’s more thoroughly corrupt than I’ve ever seen! In fact, this administration is the definition of corruption.
You don’t need to go as far as GITMO to find the issue of illegal and involuntary administration of drugs to captives who face no charges. Those allegations have surfaced in connection with the South Carolina brig (and all the records that went missing and were destroyed, presumably after Comey’s ‘investigation’ that preceded his press conference), which housed both al-Marri and Padilla. Padilla’s lawyers tried fairly hard to get access to that information and made the charges, all to yawns from what now passes for the American judicial system.
Think about what Padilla, and even cases like Fitzgerald’s Salah case and the many other “terrorism” cases, have all now created as the new paradigms. Govt torture of people for days, weeks, months, years – irrelevant to defenses against charges. Coerced statements, testified to only by men in hoods working for entities who are acknowledged to routinely engage in torture – fine for evidence.
And all the “lawyers” for the government who very likely have direct knowledge and who are actively and continuously involved in making sure that the things they know remain out of the reach of defense counsel and the courts – all helping, by active participation in advice to destroy or equally and more prevalently by sitting silent, in contempt of their duties to the court and to law, and allowing spoliation and obstruction to result from their knowing and elective silence – all the “lawyers” in so many agencies and departments but most especially in DOJ, all forever changing what law means in this country. All in the huddle, stacking hand upon hand, and guaranteeing as they break, with a collective grunt, that there is no surer path to being able to commit depravity without consequence than to put prosecutors in your pocket with politics.
Seriously evil acts and omissions, accompanied by ivy league degrees, starched collars, 50s hair cuts and the whitenoise platitudes of being the “good guys” and “doing the right thing.”
**********
**********
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Prior to conviction = bill of attainder. Just repeating what I think the Constitution said.
Yeah, but just to show how warped his thinking is, if I “interrogated” my teenager that way about where she was yesterday, I’d be in jail tomorrow. Why is it any different for CIA interrogations?
WOW. Some of the usual suspects on CSPAN’s live broadcast of a Hudon Institute panel: Dan Senor & Doug Feith.
Well, LOL, that’s what Scalia essentially means. Similar to the Supremes’ dominant riff on suspicionless drug testing. “Administrative exceptions” to the 4th Amendment probable cause & warrants thingy, i.e., given that a positive drug test doesn’t get you arrested — notwithstanding it being “evidence” of criminal behavior — it’s merely “administrative” (e.g., you just “administratively” get summarily fired or throw off the team, etc).
Neat-o.
Brown people from other countries.
Well said.
A general comment about the Voinovitch letter above: That won’t work with him.
See, GVV is as honest as the day is long and is what might be politely described as a “Bureaucratic wonk”. He pays attention to the details of how government runs, where it might break, and how it could be done better. He’s no leader, he’s no scientist, and he’s no Doctor.
You talk about global warming, that’s not on his radar. If you wrote about how global warming would effect the functioning of government, he’d listen.
You talk about health care, but he sees no impact on how government runs as long as Government employees are properly covered.
You need to frame your arguements like the above. If you do, he’ll pay attention because he actually LOVES that sort of stuff.
Boxturtle (George Carlin could get laughs reading a phone book. George Voinovitch could put an insominiac to sleep with the Gettysburg address)
Scalia is a disgusting little sadist. Whatever he may know about the law, and however brilliant he may be, he is still as sadistic, selfish and downright mean as Little Georgie. A pox on him and his house.
Thanks. Well…I just bet a whole bunch of people were tortured between 9/11 and August 2002…Just need to find out who, where, and how. Because the Administration could not have relied on the Yoo memo during that year, and it sure does look like it was written to cover up for torture. There is no way that the Admin, would have waited until they had an opinion “before” they would start it. No way.
Our government, OUR government has now tortured people on American soil. If this is even remotely true, then it IS undeniable the the “terrorist have won.” For now terrorists hold the reins of power of the Executive and Judicial branches of our government.
If terror is the use of force (or even the threat thereof) to control and/or intimidate, then these monsters, Bush, Cheney, Scalia, and Yoo, are terrorists.
I am utterly horrified by what they’ve done, in my name, to our country.
No, eCAHN, I understand — he’s picking his words very carefully. Today, it’s interrogation…tomorrow, it just might be punishment. On the other hand…I think torture is just..torture. If you do it today, it’s torture; if you do it tomorrow, it’s torture.
Cheney said openly at the outset post- 9/11 they would “have to go to the Dark Side.”
Considering what Lincoln Chaffee said in his book about his first lunch after the 2000 election with the new VP, I suspect that the whole bunch of them were over at the dark side already…
Dear egregious,
Sorry, but the entire Bush administration is not excused. They will have to stay late for detention.
ITMFA
Since the Bush administration started dismantling everything the country once stood for the comparisons of administration officials and Nazi officials become almost a merger of personalities. Cheney would have made a great Goering, Condi a great von Ribbentrop, Yoo and Mengele, the list is endless. These people, as well as the leadership of the Likud party, seem to have spent a great deal of their lives studying the methods of the most evil people of the 20th century. Bush, however, can only be described as a simpleton hanger-on, used by the more ideological of the bunch.
If impeachmentment is off the table, then the least we can settle for is a clear and concise opinion of these actions from all the candidates. I don’t want any vague mumbo-jumbo. I don’t want to hear that they will evaluate situation such as Obama has stated. (Bush and company managed to find someone to say it wasn’t unconstitutional). I want them to stand before the American public and denounce all these KGB tactics that too many in this country are now glorifying.
Double WOW. Wolfie’s also on CSPAN.
We can only hope that detention is at The Hague.
Padilla was apprehended May 8, 2002. Bybee memo…August, 2002. Padilla was tortured. Mukasey was involved in Padilla trial and is now AG….
dot..dot..dot…
as a buddhist i aspire to the lessening of all human suffering.
i aspire to practice “lovingkindness” with all sentient beings.
to have our taxes pay for the machinations of human torture in the name of our country and practiced by our government’s employees/agents fills with rage that
sorely defies my commitment to non-violence.
at very least, my thoughts of just retribution defies it.
“crimes against humanity.”
may we please convene the cheneyBu$hco war cimes trials at the Shrub Pres. Libarry?
i’ll live blog it!
(venting here always relieves my rage level:
all of y’all are part of my rage management system.
i thank you every one,
for helping me be a better buddhist.)
om ah ra pa tsa na dhi
Agreed. Just that Cheney made that statement in an interview post- 9/11.
Me too.
There isn’t a country on the planet that would drag any of them to the Hague. American outrage would be so great that we would tear the world to shreds over it. I like the idea of it,(since it’s apparent that we’ll never bring any of them to account) but I can’t see it ever happening.
I totally agree with your analysis, but I would like to point out that even Scalia agrees that flag-burning is a legitimate form of protest protected by the Constitution. That’s more than I can say for Hillary Clinton, who supported legislation to make flag-burning illegal. I am so utterly sick of some people cherry-picking which of the Bill of Rights they will support. No matter how clear the language, many care deeply about the right to bear arms, but are terribly glib and apathetic in regard to the right to free speech or freedom of expression or the fourth amendment rights, etc. Furthermore, the law Hillary was so anxious to support is unconstitutional on its face. She’s a lawyer; how could she miss that! Then she wonders why I won’t support her candidacy or why I mistrust her true intentions about things.
doing the right thing is off the table.
standing up for the innocent is off the table.
cleaning up the government is off the table.
The table is a folded up card table stuck way ba