yo

zed?

dabnit raven

How will those supporters react after watching a black man apparently win but then have the nomination taken away because he was smeared by John McCain’s Republican party and a cooperative media running overtly racist ads that equate being black with being unpatriotic, anti-white and violent?

You recall Watts, Newark, Detroit?

Zappa “Trouble Everyday” written after Watts:

Well, I seen the fires burnin’
And the local people turnin’
On the merchants and the shops
Who used to sell their brooms and mops
And every other household item
Watched the mob just turn and bite ‘em
And they say it served ‘em right
Because a few of them are white,
And it’s the same across the nation
Black and white discrimination
Yellin’ “You can’t understand me!”
‘N all that other jazz they hand me
In the papers and TV and
All that mass stupidity
That seems to grow more every day
Each time you hear some nitwit say
He wants to go and do you in
Because the color of your skin
Just don’t appeal to him
(No matter if it’s black or white)
Because he’s out for blood tonight

You know we got to sit around at home
And watch this thing begin
But I bet there won’t be many live
To see it really end
‘Cause the fire in the street
Ain’t like the fire in the heart
And in the eyes of all these people
Don’t you know that this could start
On any street in any town
In any state if any clown
Decides that now’s the time to fight
For some ideal he thinks is right
And if a million more agree
There ain’t no Great Society
As it applies to you and me
Our country isn’t free
And the law refuses to see
If all that you can ever be
Is just a lousy janitor
Unless your uncle owns a store
You know that five in every four
Just won’t amount to nothin’ more
Gonna watch the rats go across the floor
And make up songs about being poor

If Hillary is the candidate, the Dems will lose.

Period.

The message many of them are hearing is that despite all they’d done, they can’t have the prize, that 21st century America is not willing to elect an “Afro-American” to be President, even if he’s “only half black.”

The question is, are they ready to elect an African American who is smarter than they are.

I don’t buy any of this bull about the drawn out election being bad for the Democratic party. It’s just Republicans desperate to make the Democrats look bad by trying to say that they can’t even run an election right.

(Although I have to say that the decision to not seat Florida and Michigan was a big, dumb mistake that is not only the cause of this long election, but remains the problem for solving it.)

fwiw, good morning Scarecrow

I still like Obama and Hillary. I would happily support either in an election.

The Republicans don’t even like McCain, they hate Hillary and would never go black, so they’ll just stay home. That’s my bet.

Yea, that’s what yo means. Sorta like aloha or “You say goodbye and I say hello, hello, hello.

Hang on to your hat for this one

President Bush to make a statement on stimulating the economy at 9:25 a.m.

Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs -

And I see a real risk that in cobbling together a coalition of the non-frustrated to win a narrow victory, we will lose one or more groups that have traditionally been the heart and soul of the Democratic Party.

Scarecrow – which of these groups are we gonna lose if Obama is the nominee ?

Frankly, I think this has been great for the Democratic party in terms of attracting new registered voters. I think it has given a whole lot of people a very good chance to see Obama and Hillary in action and has given Obama and his team a really good opportunity to test their messages and see what can get thrown at them. Because you know what is going to happen to him if he gets the nomination – the GOP will throw every dirty trick in the book at him. Women like me will be very disappointed(heck, we are already disappointed)if Hillary doesn’t get the nomination – especially after John Mc-nobrain’s comment yesterday about the Ledbetter legislation — “women need more education and training” — are we always never going to be “good enough”? But I do believe Hillary when she says that if Obama gets the nod, she will campaign for him and get her supporters to do so also. I do think she is sincere in that.

I am not even remotely suggesting anyone would riot. The question is what happens to the party and what does continued anger within the party do for us in November. How do we avoid the McConnell and 45 Republican’s scenario? I don’t pretend to have an answer.

He’s going to tell us to go shopping and make permanent his tax cuts for the rich.

I didn’t think you were, I’m the one that is suggesting it. Long hot summer.

Seems to me that Clinton is so pissed at the grassroots and their organizations that she’s willing to throw the whole thing in the shitter by her petulant attacks. Both Clinton and Obama need to realize it’s not about them. They could cool this thing out by focusing on what’s wrong with the Rethug agenda and how to fix it. That’s what voters want. In the end, imho, it’s going to be up to the likes of MoveOn to keep their supporters focused on the larger picture.

Hillary’s campaign tactic of claiming Obama is unelectable is hurting. The chances are extremely high that Obama will be our nominee. Because of that, I feel Senator Clinton has a responsibility, as a member of the party, to limit attacks based on issues and to keep attacking McCain.

She’s not going to do that, of course. Instead, after constantly whining and complaining about ”disenfranchising” FL and MI voters, she’s going to keep pushing bogus popular vote totals that, guess what, don’t count *any* voters in the states of MI and others. Remarkable.

This is not 1965-68.
African Americans, if the nomination is, ineffect, taken from Obama by superdelegates there will not be riots, there will be the lowest turnout of A-A voter in decades which would doom HRC’s chances against McCain.

I lived in LA in 65, Inglewood actually. Up until then the idea that there were race problems in LA seemed remote. I am not FOR fighting in the streets but I sure as hell won’t be surprised the way this deal with Hillary is shaping up.

oh boy, WW III.

Re-up

Yea, Rodney King Day was in 66 wasn’t it?

If Hillary is the candidate, the Dems will lose. Period.

Even if she is elected.

Well, considering what I read this morning in the NYT about people owning thousands of dollars to their local gas and electric utilities, that is going to be a real stretch.

One thing we can do is emphasize the importance of the Supreme Court

He’d better be announcing a big sale on yachts, because, far as I can tell, that class is the only one with any money left.

Nah, no jungles in this clusterfuck and knees wouldn’t hold up. Gotta watch what I say or Christy will take a T-square to my knuckles.

The thing I don’t like about that argument is that congress plays a co-equal role.

If you believe this article, then according to the exit polls Obama does not appear to be in great danger of losing any group, though he’d have to work to gain their trust; my assumption is that with Clinton’s help, that would be possible (and I assume it would be forthcoming). Still, lots of folks, especially women, have intense hopes tied up in this, so I don’t think it’s as simple as that article depicts. It’s perhaps an argument for a combined ticket . . .?

I think the more difficult scenario is the reverse, because the article about Representative Clyburn is signaling a more serious potential alienation.

my sphincter is stimulated

damn it

This strikes me as strange, that it’d be supporters of Barack Obama who would riot.

I am not FOR fighting in the streets but I sure as hell won’t be surprised the way this deal with Hillary is shaping up.

Well maybe not rioting but people in the streets by the millions IS what is needed right now. Millions of people with impeach the bastard in BIG letters.

And the picture is getting ugly.

It’s not ugly. It’s more like a work in progress by Salvador Dali.

Why do you hate surreaslism?

I think that’s good advice. Earlier in the primaries, when we had all the candidates, the focus was on issues and contrasts with Bush/Republicans, and the effect was good for Democrats as a whole. It may be too much to expect the remaining two candidates to return to that, but if that happened, I wouldn’t be as worried.

lol!

It’s more like a work in progress by Salvador Dali.

And the Dali museum in St Petersburg FL is well worth a visit.

FWIW, I think the song is called “For what it’s Worth”

A judge in New York is going to give his verdict in the case of the shooting of three men by police outside a bar a little after 9. Shrub to speak at 9:25. One white and two black cops will get off and Shrub will announce that the Fed is giving all our money to the investment bankers.

We’re in hell, aren’t we?

Americans tend to vote conservatively (not ideologically, but in terms of risk taking).

Americans now clearly do not want another Republican president, but they are also very jittery about all that is going on. By the time the GOP is through with him, Obama will seem too much of a risk for most Americans to comfortably vote for (pardon that bad grammar). Hillary will feel like the safer alternative to another Republican, which is why I think she’s got a better chance of winning in November than does Obama.

Americans vote based on the “better the devil you know than the devil you don’t” philosophy, and this race will be no different, I don’t think.

tw3k, I don’t understand what you mean.
I’d rather have a Democratic President submitting names than a Republican one — to a Democratic Congress with more and better Democrats

Just one of the few things worth seeing here in God’s Waiting Room.

Thanks. I’ll fix that.

Americans vote based on the “better the devil you know than the devil you don’t” philosophy, and this race will be no different, I don’t think.

Familiararity breeds contempt

Yesterday on Randi Rhodes, A man named Joseph spoke so eloquently about how he felt about Obama. He was black and had supported the Clintons during their troubles. He wont support Hillary because of what she is doing now. His passion was amazing and I cried. He spoke of how his friends felt about Barack especially the old. For them this is a miracle.

I think Obama has a power to unite. I really think that their will be amazing changes around this country.

Good post, Scarecrow. I agree with everything you said. At one point (the “what an honor it is” debate), I thought both candidates understood these issues and would, when necessary, step back and help the party. Shortly after, it became apparent that dragging one out of the primary would leave fingernail marks in the dirt across several states. Now I think it may be dire than you express. It could be not only a Republican victory, but the collapse of the coalition which has made up the Democratic Party for several decades.

I’d rather have either submitting names to a Democratic Congress with more and better Democrats.

I’d rather have either submitting names to a Democratic Congress with more and better Democrats.

absolutely no comparison. No President McCain, not now, not ever! not even close.

Yup, Buffalo Springfield

I think it is all quite obvious and a logical decision must be made. Clinton has lost, period. She cannot even begin to catch up in pledged delegates. That will anger her supposed Reagan Democrat and hard core support. Not good, but nothing compared to the backlash that will occur if she is given a nomination that will obviously appear illegitimate. McCain will be able to make an huge issue out of that alone.

The slogan “Change We Can Believe In” is not just some tag line. It is the core tenet of the Obama campaign, and it has won out. Clinton’s campaign is its antithesis, and she will be left more than just high and dry if she is able to overturn the pledged delegate lead.

Frankly, 80% of the new registrants will be completely alienated from the democratic process and much more than half of them will refuse to participate at the presidential level until Obama is again the nominee.

I see no other logic or prediction that even begins to trump this.

Buffalo Springfield lip-synching “For What It’s Worth”, Neil Young seems to be purposefully fucking up the charade, pulling his hands away from his guitar when he is supposed to be soloing.

“God’s Waiting Room.”
lol!

I disagree. I believe that the people’s power is in congress, not the presidency. I want to see a congress that exerts its’ power in a progressive direction.

If Obama has the power to unite, why is his own party so divided (and please don’t blame Hillary. To unite means to be opposing factions together)? Bill Clinton had a 90% approval rating among African Americans when he was president too. It’s Hillary Clinton who’s clearly reached across the aisle during her time in Congress, even to people who were brutal to her and her family.

While the song has come to symbolize worldwide turbulence and confrontational feelings arising from events during the 1960s (particularly the Vietnam War), Stills reportedly wrote the song in reaction to escalating unrest between law enforcement and young club-goers relating to the closing of Pandora’s Box, a club on West Hollywood, California’s Sunset Strip. The song’s title appears nowhere in its lyrics, and many casual listeners likely know it better by the first line of chorus: “Stop, children, what’s that sound? Everybody look what’s going down.”

In 2006, Stephen Stills was interviewed by Tom Kent on his radio show “Into the ’70s” and pointed out that though many people think “For What It’s Worth” is about the Kent State Shootings, it was actually recorded before that event.

[edit]

[Mod Note; Please cite quoted material. Thank you.]

I think if we can’t stop this nonsense we need a new political movement. We need a realist movement that doesn’t have the war mongering, free spending anti- civil rights aspects but also doesn’t have the completely deviod of any backbone attitutes of Pelosi and the dem leadership. This election is the dems to loose. If they loose we are going to have to start from scratch with a new everything while at the same time fending off the criminality of Bushco.

On the topic of Bushco: We must prosecute all the criminal activity so the next time these jokers get the presidency the Dick Cheney’s of the administration won’t be able to walk back into power. Criminal behavior like obstruction of justice must be prosecuted.

As far at the process of the primaries goes. I am as die hard as anyone and I stopped reading about the election after Texas. I don’t have the stomach to read this drivel day after day. We are losing our democracy and all I read in the paper is about how this person or that person is racist. OMG enough already.

The only way McCain or any Republican can win anything in November is if the economy improves by then – meaning gas prices come down a lot – and Iraq improves. I don’t see either of those things happening.

excellent, excellent points scarecrow. you really have me thinking now….

here’s something else. when you say:

The country needs a convincing repudiation of the Bush/Cheney regime,

i’d add that i think for the country to really change direction in a good way, we need to repudiate major elements of the bill clinton years too.

i so regret that senator clinton has tied her candidacy to her time in bill’s administration – because now she has become a stand in, a front person, for those elements that need repudiation. and this has nothing to do with comparing the policies she advocates or her time as a senator to obama’s policies or time as a senator. it’s what they’ve come to represent in the imagination of a segment of the democratic grass roots activist.

the dems may be able to get a supermajority – but what good will it do if it means a return to the neoliberal economic policies of the clinton years? is that really a blowout mandate for progressive change? as far superior as it is to what we have now, i don’t think so.

perfect, perfect analogy.

and good snark too.

Bill Clinton had a 90% approval rating among African Americans when he was president too.

Clinton has remained irritated (and more) over the ordeal, which alienated many black Clinton supporters who felt that Clinton failed to take into account the broad support Obama has drawn, from voters white and black, in races outside the South. The new comments come as another southern contest is on the horizon: North Carolina, which votes on May 6. The Clinton campaign has already said it expects to have a hard time in that state because of its large black population.

This morning, NBC/NJ asked the former president about the exchange and what he meant when he “said that the Obama campaign was playing the race card on you?”

Clinton bristled, “When did I say that, and to whom did I say that?”

When the reporter pointed to the WHYY radio interview, Clinton denied that that’s what he said. “No, no, no. That’s not what I said,” the former president replied. “You always follow me around and play these little games, and I’m not going to play your games today. This is a day about election day. Go back and see what the question was, and what my answer was. You have mischaracterized it to get another cheap story to divert the American people from the real urgent issues before us, and I choose not to play your game today. Have a nice day.”

[Mod Note; Please cite quoted material. Thank you.]

And votes, unfortunately.

On the topic of Bushco: We must prosecute all the criminal activity so the next time these jokers get the presidency the Dick Cheney’s of the administration won’t be able to walk back into power. Criminal behavior like obstruction of justice must be prosecuted.

I agree. There’s thousands of Bushies all through every department and the one way to keep them out of Government in the future is by prosecuting the people who put them there. I wish this was a bigger part of the campaign, or at least, part of the debates.

thank you

Clyburn – that would be my argument to Supers – the party has never won without the African American vote and the Clinton campaign has alienated that bloc (and there’s some irony there)

btw – this feeds into the argument wingers have made to African Americans for years – the Party takes them for granted and Clinton as nominee would underscore the stuffing out of that.

as to the lower income HRC block – BO would still beat McFoodRiot

Scarecrow -

excellent post – incredibly thoughtful questions – how dare you burst my little this is good for the Party bubble *g*

Just like McCain sold out to the people that were brutal to him. Maybe they should run together?

You missed my point.

I was responding to someone saying Obama can unite people and used the AFrican American vote as an illustration, so I was simply pointing out that Clinton had as high an approval rating among AA when he was president.

I think it is very unfortunate that the Obama campaign played the race card by accusing the Clintons of playing the race card. That is dirty politics, which they’re supposedly against, but it is what it is.

I’ve never quite understood why people now can blog about how Obama will get the African American vote, that Dem cant win without it, note that many of his wins have been due to that vote, even that Clinton gets the “old, emotional woman” vote, but Clinton saying Jesse Jackson won via the African American vote was racist.

Go figure.

The thing is: Dems really didn’t like Kerry, but they eventually rallied behind him for the sake of party unity. The same will occur for McCain (Rush Limbaugh notwithstanding). McCain will attract enough Republicans to be solid as their nominee because they are more cohesive as a party to begin with; and he is apparently impressing “independents” sufficiently to dilute either Hillary or Obama’s appeal–at least for now. I believe the Dems will rally behind whomever they choose too, but the battle they have to win is the fight for the “independents”, not the party-loyalists.

Short of being caught smoking weed with a 10 year old, Sen. Obama is going to be the nominee.

Period. End of story.

Therefore, the leadership of the progressive blogosphere needs to get off the fence and support him.

This would help nudge the popular vote and the remaining supers into his camp and end this death march of a campaign.

Besides, it shouldn’t be so hard to do. Which candidate is more ‘Blue America?’

The one with over a million donors @ $120 per donor, 50 state organization strategy and an uplifting campaign message, or the other one.

So when Clinton reaches across the aisle, she’s selling out and is like John McCain, but when Obama does (has he?), it’s unity and a good thing.

Okay. Not sure how that works.

Historically gasoline price do fall somewhat after the summer high demand months. So by October, McCain will be saying, “ain’t it great that gas prices have fallen to $3.50?” As the man says, people’s concerns are just mostly psychological.

To reverse the disasters of the last eight years, let alone push through a strong progressive agenda, Democrats need working control of the Senate. And to get that, they’ll need a blowout at the Presidential level with strong coattails: they’ll need a unified, determined party led by a President with a convincing mandate.

I agree with part one — we need control of the Senate — but not part two.

The effect of coattails is always something that presidential campaigns tout, as a way of improving their fundraising. “If you’re only going to give X to campaigns this year, don’t split it among four or five campaigns. Give it to the one place that it can do the most good — my campaign — and it will help pull in everybody down the ticket.”

There is a coattail effect, but for control of Congress, nothing beats local, district, and statewide organizing. That’s why I think Jane, Christy, and Howie Klein are on target in focusing their organizing efforts on Blue America.

I’d love to see a blowout at the presidential level, but even better would be a blowout up and down the ticket — and for that, we need to dig in at the local level.

dipping toe into lake for swim later, sipping on cup of tea–hi scarecrow, just took the trash out, not lettin’ any back in the door…..new trash guys, will take anything, even furniture and appliances, unlimited, is gonna change my world, am applying that to every part of my life…”it’s outta here”…last trash guys would only take pristine bagged trash…..there’s a wind tunnel now from my house to the end of the drive. : )

i am voting for the supreme court and federal judges…..like always.

i know obama supporters who will not vote for hillary.

i don’t know one hillary suppporter who will not vote for obama.

need to know this, need help—–does anyone know if this is the same bill?

gop wants to attach fisa to war supplemental bill
http://thehill.com/leading-the…..04-24.html

dems want to attach unemployment aid to war bill–doesn’t mention gop fisa tactic
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..eheadlines

bbl-taking more stuff to the curb, until the truck comes and i stop…..is gonna be a mountain…….like in close encounters……..ha.

Dorian Grey?

get of the fence

Uh, that shd be ‘off’ of said fence.

Excuse me, His Party?
He is a Democrat just like Hillary. Hillary lost, fair and square. She is a good person, perhaps even great but she ran a bad campaign and she is asking for a return to the past. Obama inspires the young and wants to move forward. Doesnt make Hillary bad.

Don’t misunderstand me, they both suck as far as I can tell. I just see Hillary as slightly ahead on my handy-dandy suck-o-meter.

And I’m not sure how it works either.

trying to clarify my above…

for a long time i’ve struggled to understand the passion that supporters of either clinton or obama have… and my current thinking is that some of it is not about about the candidates, their policies or their record – it’s what their candidacies symbolize to us.

and my using myself as an example, i wasn’t arguing for the “rightness” of my own view – it was just an example what what i think (today anyway) is going on.

I don’t see why both Clinton and Obama agree to quit addressing each other and make it a contest to see which one of them tears down McCain-Bush the best. I think Dems and Independents would much rather vote on who challenges McCain the best than who challenges the other best.

Good points, Peterr. I’d argue that the Blue America is critical to electing better Democrats; the coattail effect helps elect more Democrats. We need both.

Wouldnt it be better if Hillary supported Obama and brought her strengths to him

Maybe the coattails could work in the other direction?

Obama’s power to unite will be tested once Clinton concedes the race, is demonstrably defeated by superdelegate movement in June, or, God help us, demonstrably nominated at the convention. It is impossible to unite this situation while Clinton is still actively campaigning against him.

St Petersburg has been called that for years. The city’s trademark were green benches all over town where the seniors could sit. Retirees flocked to the city. Still do. They’ve tried very hard in the 25 years I’ve been here to overcome that perception, with limited success. Rising prices of everything in the late 90’s slowed the flow somewhat but for some reason New Yorkers come here in the winter and think the weather’s like that all year round. Their first August is a rude awakening, most having bought their homes in the winter. And I think they all got their driver’s license by mail from Dizzy World in Orlando.

My tinfoil hat tells me that is what Cheney’s recent trip to the ME was all about – lining up a pre-election reduction in gas prices.

Yes, his party, meaning he’s a Democrat, not meaning ownership. The party to which he belongs is very divided right now, more than I’ve ever seen. How is that evidence of his being able to unite people?

Clinton has not lost.

Obama inspires the young and wants to move forward. What? The middle aged and elderly don’t matter? Yes, Obama inspires the young because he is running the idealistic campaign, and idealism appeals to young people. It has always been that way. Clinton started out talking about policy, which bores young people and doesn’t appeal to them.

They both want to move forward.

Why vote for a lesser evil?

Hillary will feel like the safer alternative to another Republican

the snark in that sentence is almost too tempting, but I digress

are you saying it is racist for someone to point out Dems don’t win without the AA bloc ?

Just as better if Obama would support her and bring his strengths to her.

The hubris on the Obama side is something to behold. I’ve had enough hubris, thank you.

No,

I’m saying it was the Obama camp that said it was racist to say so.

Heck yeah!

Elect enough real progressives to keep either Clinton or Obama from doing too much damage.

Although, I do like their collaboration on a new US flag design!

I see, so the power to unite only works when everyone gets along and there is no opposition.

Think about that for a moment.

Good points, Peterr. I’d argue that the Blue America is critical to electing better Democrats; the coattail effect helps elect more Democrats. We need both.

My spouse asked last night who I thought would be a better candidate to appear with the progressive candidates running for House and Senate in the upcoming general. Damn good question I thought and I come down on the side of not clinton2. She is way too divisive and way too far to the right (DLC anyone?) on most issues. I want progressives in Congress, the country needs progressives in Congress and I believe that obama1 will be better on the stump with progressive candidates across the nation.

reading the comments, Scarecrow, it’s obvious we have a ways to go here. Thanks for helping to keep our Eyes on the Prize

selise — recall Pachacutec’s post months ago about the three parties? We’re always fighting the other two, and that ignores the ambiguity about which one each candidate fits into.

that’s too logical, dude.

After Edwards’s exit, I commented that the Democrat’s inclusionist zeal was going to make the general election a roll of the dice. I had doubts that a brain damaged electorate (RE: Bush’s percentages in 00 and 04) would elect either an African-American male or a woman.

Now that it’s time to roll . . .

I’ll go with Obama and his sea of youngsters. The great unpollables.

I see no evidence to suggest that Clinton can bridge the chasm after taking the nomination through superdelegate coup. Nothing will assuage the intense acrimony that will cause. Obama supporters are not attracted to her candidacy for many reasons. Her nomination would be Change We Can’t Believe In to the 10th power.

The WaPo has a page one story today that starts like this:

McCain Offers Tax Policies He Once Opposed
Reversal Includes New Support for Bush Cuts

On May 26, 2001, after then-Sen. Lincoln D. Chafee (R.I.) cast his vote against President Bush’s $1.35 trillion tax cut, he trudged back to his office, convinced, he recalled, that he had been the lone Republican to oppose the largest tax cut in two decades.

But Chafee’s staff told him that one other Republican, who had largely avoided the grueling efforts at compromise, had joined him in dissent. That senator, John McCain, was marching to his own beat, Chafee said, impervious to pressure from either side.

Now that he is the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, however, McCain is marching straight down the party line. The economic package he has laid out embraces many of the tax policies he once decried: extending Bush’s tax cuts he voted against, offering investment tax breaks he once believed would have little economic benefit and granting the long-held wishes of tax lobbyists he has often mocked. . . .

Oh, the snarkmeisters are going to love this one. And it’s on a Friday morning, too, so everyone can talk about it over the weekend.

Yum.

they both suck as far as I can tell.

How, exactly, does Sen. Obama ’suck’?

You may disagree with his positions on various issues, but I’d like to know how he ’sucks’.

Hillary has lost.
She cannot win without dirty tricks and destruction. That is numbers nothing else.
Im sorry about the divide in the Party.

I think Cheney went to Iraq to tell al Maliki to let Petraeus go after Sadr in Basra and Baghdad, and al Maliki decided he’d rather do it without the occupier in the lead. See this really excellent article.

No. No. No. Illogical. You ask Obama for unilateral disarmament. From a position of strength, no less. Unity comes with surrender. Please explain how a treaty is brokered with the weaker side while the fighting continues. I must be enlightened.

As Lauren Bacall said, “just put your lips together”. . .

Dammit, Raven. Now I’ve gotta clean the coffee off the monitor!

This is scary.

The Wall Street Journal. Obama is the nominee

“No matter how many kicks the rest of us find in such famously fun primary states as Indiana and South Dakota, it’s going to be McCain versus Obama in 2008.

I believe the cement set around the Clinton coffin last Friday. The Obama campaign announced it had received the support of former Sens. Sam Nunn of Georgia and David Boren of Oklahoma.”

there’s nothing wrong with continuing the primaries IF our candidates STOPPED giving the republicans material against both candidates and IF they used their attack skills against republicans as their method for proving they will win this office

both democrats need to just STOP it, stop going after each other and agree on each other’s platform and proceed to disagree with everything and anything McCain spews

what a ripe field for campaign this idiot running as the Republican, he says things that are constantly at odds with both the facts and his own statements and voting record

you show me the candidate that makes McCain look like the fool that he is and I will show you the person I will want as our candidate for the general election

the ambiguity about which one each candidate fits into.

i think you know my view on this one. don’t see either of them as members of the grassroots progressive party.

(btw, here’s the post that i think scarecrow is referring to)

Clinton started out talking about policy, which bores young people and doesn’t appeal to them.

I strongly disagree. As a campaign staffer I see a lot of young people and policies are what they talk about. They’re sick and tired of the mud slinging between the two, see it as counterproductive, and want to know what the candidates are going to do about the mess we find ourselves in. They fully realize that what happens here affects their future, which is one of the reasons they’re so engaged this cycle.

I got’s some Johhy Rocco quotes too but they weren’t written by John Steinbeck from a Hemingway novel!

was that on the editorial page?

Yes — the key is what each candidate symbolizes to her/his supporters. It’s the hopes people have, which they projected into their candidate, that we have to be concerned about when the hopes are identified exclusively with one candidate.

I agree, they both suck, I see them both bowing to “bipartisantship”, I see them both giving corporations yet more middle class assets, I see more of the rediculous “free trade” tirade.

they both suck they just don’t suck as bad as mccain,

“He wants more!”

Clinton has not lost

.
Really ?? and if you don’t like that one, there’s half dozen more like it

btw – I would be making the argument even with the shoe on the other foot – I want the McCain beat down to start ASAP

and look what I found when looking for the link – oy
Clinton Push Polling in NC ?

Ding!

And you gotta love J Silverheels in that one.

blow.

one of my favorite older movies.

More Obaman hubris.

If the Superdelegates decide that the race is basically tied, which it is, that she does have the popular vote, neither has the required number of pledged delegates, and most importantly that she has a greater chance at beating McCain, then they can give her the nomination. Somehow the Obama camp has turned this right of the superdelegates into Clinton cheating and stealing the nomination.

The momentum right now in terms of the November election is against Obama. If the party leaders truly believe that she can beat McCain and Obama cannot, they have a responsibility to make her the nominee.

If they believe that person is Obama, despite more people having voted for Clinton, then they have to go with Obama.

Again, I don’t see any talk of Clinton supporters rioting if they don’t get their way. I don’t read blogs in which it’s suggested, however tongue in cheek, that Obama supporters (Clintoninjas was the term) would kill Clinton in order to win, etc. I don’t see among Clinton supporters any hatred of Obama, but I see a ton of it from Obama supporters. That is pretty ironic to me.

An op ed. Not the editors.

This morning on Washington Journal they’re talking about this study on the Youth Vote
he’s on now still for fifteen more minutes

With two razor-thin national elections in eight years, the global significance of the issues at stake, a new sense of the meaning and importance of politics after September 11, 2001 and the fact that several campaigns are targeting young people through the use of Web 2.0 and social networking technology all indications are that the 29.5 million 18 to 24 year olds in America are prepared to further extend their two-cycle trend (‘04, ‘06) of increased participation in November.

The hubris on the Obama side is something to behold. I’ve had enough hubris, thank you.

Yeah, cuz Clinton, she’s all about the humility.

Behind by every metric there is, any other candidate would have been forced to drop out by now, a common criticism of her is that she appears to believe she’s “entitled” to the presidency, and you’ve had enough of hubris?

I’m not saying she has to drop out – she’s got every right, as long as their are states to be contested to contest those states. I’d prefer it if both she and her opponent could concentrate on McTheuselah, but I’ve watched politics long enough to know it isn’t going to happen.

But that hubris line? That is some kind of special.

Daniel Henniger WSJ

How can there be mudslinging between the two if it’s Clinton who’s run the negative campaign and not Obama?

Show me the candidate that is not providing truckloads of campaign fodder against their opponent and for McCain and using traditional Repug talking points and operatives to destroy their opponent and I’ll show you who I want to win the nomination.

The country needs a convincing repudiation of the Bush/Cheney regime, its distorted conservative philosophy, and its corrupt theories for destroying public confidence in governance.

Then we must defeat the DINOs. No moar Liebermanns!

But the line is from “To Have and Have Not”.

Cute, but I would seriously like to know how anyone here can say Sen. Obama ’sucks’.

One of the reasons I frequent this place is it demands accountability, even in snarky comments. And here’s a guy that has run an excellent campaign with minimal negativity, and he ’sucks’.

So, I’m just asking what he or his campaign has done to deserve that comment?

Her popular vote count does not include the caucasses and does include Michigan where her name was not on the ballot and she signed a pledge not to have hers on the ballot then claimed the win.

and not, i think, just hopes.

at least in my case it’s more a desire to repudiate what i see as failed and destructive past policies.

again, not arguing (at this time *g*) for my point of view – just using it as an example and starting place to try to understand the larger dynamics at play.

“To Have and Have Not”.

sorta kinda what Scarecrow’s talking about here, sorta kinda

That short sequence of the furrowed-faced Indian grandmother bumming a smoke.

Or was it Nick Danger, Third Eye?
Commmmming mother!

So on the one hand you say she has every right to stay in and that there are still states to vote, but you say she SHOULD drop out to be gallant or something, to hand Obama the nomination you all think he’s entitled to (more irony). That is hubris.

If one party is asking another party to drop out of a race they acknowledge the other has a right to stay in but should drop out and hand it to the other party for the sake of the party, it seems to me it’s the side with that thought that should be doing the dropping out.

This is scary.

How so?

I forget who said it and I am sure they said it better then this, but it goes something like;

“you give a voter the choice between a republican and a democrat who acts like a republican they will vote for the republican every time”

both of our candidates are trying to get republican votes and they need to stop it

everybodys up early and feisty

People here say all kinds of stupid shit. If I get a chance I make jokes about it!

Right.

So now it’s NOT about the will of the voters.

The Obama camp fluctuates on that.

Let’s back off, please. The issue is tough enough without goading supporters on either side. A little restraint on all sides would be helpful.

Show me the candidate that is not providing truckloads of campaign fodder against their opponent and for McCain and using traditional Repug talking points and operatives to destroy their opponent and I’ll show you who I want to win the nomination.

I think you and I said the same thing

Wasn’t that Henry Aldrich’s line?

Rahmbo is gonna tell Hill the FACTS OF LIFE

Who are these “Obama supporters” you are always talking about?

Oh, pardon me. I mean after all the fucking world depends on staying on topic on FDL.

Yepper. The thing that drives the national campaigns batshit crazy is not being able to connect with the youth vote because they aren’t linked to all the old crap like land lines. They’re mobile, get most of their info from the intertoobz and the fogies in the Beltway don’t know how to talk to them. They certainly don’t go for the condescending, patriarchal crap. But they’re out there. And angry bitter. And, best of all, they’re gonna vote.

Thinking about the same thing on the way to work this morning. We all know that there are democrats elected and not elected that have to be dealt with. By that I mean replaced or adjusting thier attitude. I think that is one way to look at what is going on right now.

then my memory is worse than i thought.

time for more coffee in a futile effort to compensate.

Sorry, off topic, No can talkeee

That you think it is simply impossible for anyone to think Obama is not an ideal candidate. You didn’t ask why that person thinks both “suck”, you asked what about Obama does.

It’s this stars-in-their-eyes blindness about Obama that is disturbing, IMO, and the reason the notion of a cult-like mentality has been mentioned by many.

Do you have some policy differences you’d like to discuss?

There is no split in the Democratic Party – there’s only a split amongst the Power Money Players, and Hillary’s Backers are Sore Losers.

It’s questionable if Hillary’s Money is even aligned at all with the Progressive Cause – they seem to be “In It For Themselves.”

When Obama is the Nominee, all this ‘mirage’ of a ’split’ will disappear into a Solid Voter Base Unified On Change. We won’t lose anybody that really counts.

We are going to Win in a Landslide, across the Board, with Obama.

Now is the time!

You know, you are so right. It is tied even though Obama has the majority of delegates and since he is the newcomer he should just do the gentlemanly thing and walk of the stage forever as if he had never existed and the campaign had never happened. Forget all the support that he has brought to the party. It is so much easier for the party hacks this way. Who would want to be a member of this club anyhow? If you actually try to improve things you are destroyed by the old guard for doing so.

S sorry we destroyed your dreams, but I think it is time for Obama to just quit and play nice and no longer be involved any more. The hell with it.

Trying to save your party from yourselves is just not worth the effort.

Kid Oakland over on Kos has a thoughtful piece about Hillary attacking a fellow Democrats church. If Hillary would campaign on issues a respect the other Democrat things would be different.
Obama has been restrained. there is so much to go after her on but he hasnt. Except the Bosnia lie. I cnat have another liar in the White House

Hear hear! Blue Dog Go Home!

Stop the poo fights. It just makes the problem worse, and you resolve nothing. Every throw is a win for McCain.

Blacks think Hillary trying to destroy Obama in 2008 so she can run in 2012
by John Aravosis (DC) · 4/25/2008 08:40:00 AM ET · Link
Discuss this post here: Make a comment · reddit · FARK ·· Digg It!

Welcome to the end of African-American support for the Democratic party. From the NYT:
Mr. Clyburn added that there appeared to be an almost “unanimous” view among African-Americans that Mr. and Mrs. Clinton were “committed to doing everything they possibly can to damage Obama to a point that he could never win.”

Obama’s campaign has been very negative.

I was serious, we can have or have not here, depending on how well we pull together after the nomination. Sorry I didn’t make that clearer, Raven.

i propose a moratorium on claims made without supporting evidence.

what do you-all think? would that help?

Just came into the conversation. ‘xactly so what you’re sayin’, Scarecrow. We must elect more and better Democrats from top to bottom this year. It is that important.

Will hold my nose and watch Chris Wallace interviewing Barack Obama this weekend. Will also be mindful of two CBS giants and the standard they set and whether Chris will measure up to it: Mike Wallace and Edward R. Murrow [born 100 years ago today].

Prairie Today: Auspicious April Day

Now you might understand how Hillary Clinton’s supporters feel when they hear the Obama camp saying she should step out.

You seem very offended at the notion of Obama being asked to step aside, but you have no problem suggesting Clinton should.

I don’t think Obama should. I’ve not heard calls for him to do so. But it’s interesting that you would get so upset at just the notion.

I would like to associate myself with that comment by the gentleman from the cornfield.

Rahm
by kos
Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:53:51 PM PDT
Rahm Emanuel:

The way the loser loses will determine whether the winner wins in November.
One guess who he’s talking about. Though really, why not just say it explicitly already?

::
Tags: Rahm Emanuel, president, 2008, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

View Comments | 458 comments

and lord knows, I can be the queen of OT

Off to earn my daily rice. Kittehs got their morning meds so I’m good to go. Sayonara.

Peace Love Light

Nah, I’m just too flip about the whole deal. Sorry

could you give me an example? ,please

Nope. I don’t see much difference between them on policy.

Chill, folks. I’m on dinosaur dialup, I don’t have time to read screed…from either side. My screen flashed up on one comment and my first thought was “kee-rist, here we go again, wasting oxygen.”

It’s Arbor Day too…go plant a tree, or hug one….

You misread Elliot’s comment, I think. Off topic is not an issue on my early a.m. posts. Bring in the news of the day, and Lauren Bacall.

I HAVE never heard him tell her SHE IS UNELECTABLE,that is race baiting imo

there are no poo fights.

And the GOP doesn’t need any help in finding ways to attack their Democratic opponent. They’re already running ads against Obama that make Clinton look like a Girl Scout.

my best friend and gardener is coming to replant the whole garden today,mebbe an apple tree or 2

or that she and McCain are ready but Obama just has a speech

i propose a moratorium on claims made without supporting evidence.

I claim the world is flat and I can prove it

the world is not really round, it just appears to be round and appearances can be decieving

oh wait, it doesn’t appear to be round it appears to be flat

well, appearances aren’t always deceiving and I am saying they are not in this case

what I am saying is that some “scientists” claim that if you go out far enough you will see that the world is round, i am saying that if you go out further you will not see the roundness anymore and that roundness from distance disappears from even further distance, in fact the entire planet disspears if you go out far enough so does that mean there is no planet simply because it disspears if you go out far enough?

no, it does not mean that, even though at distance the planet appears to dissapear that does not happen and even though at distance the planet appears round it is still flat

same thing going on there

I am also saying it’s not only flat but there are sides to the flatness, sort of like a cube only even more sides then a cube, say enough sides that at a certain distance the world might appear to be round to those who are uneducated

so god made a flat earth that looks flat then tricked some people into claiming it’s round because they see something at a distance and form an incomplete understanding of what is really going on

What isn’t?

And is she denouncing them?

ya know what REPUKES NEVER DO…ATTACK EACH OTHER in public,that is why they win on shitty platforms,imo

thanks for the reminder Prairie
Arbor Day — Color Your World

I HAVE never heard him tell her SHE IS UNELECTABLE,that is race baiting imo

and you have heard clinton call obama unelectable?

I don’t think so, I think you heard someone tell someone else that HE heard clintion tell him that

Again, I don’t see any talk of Clinton supporters rioting if they don’t get their way. I don’t read blogs in which it’s suggested, however tongue in cheek, that Obama supporters (Clintoninjas was the term) would kill Clinton in order to win, etc. I don’t see among Clinton supporters any hatred of Obama, but I see a ton of it from Obama supporters. That is pretty ironic to me.

Maybe because Clinton is a polarizing figure?

Could be?

I’m just sayin…

Stop the poo fights.

Coffee AND poo?

It might not be to everyone’s taste – and that’s not just because at £50 a cup it’s the most expensive coffee in the world.
The secret behind the special blend about to go on sale at an upmarket department store is that it is made from cats’ droppings.

sorry that is no answer,and when asked if he was a XTIAN,she said “as far as she knows” and then proceeded to rsant about his PASTOR OF 20 YEARS………..sheesh

707!

If you’re referring to the Republicans in NC taunting the state candidates, then I agree. Imus noted this morning that McCain personally intervened and asked them to take it down [he’s a McCain supporter, as is his right; his son, unfortunately is not old enough to vote for Obama]. The Clinton camp was noteworthy in its silence. Maybe Clinton’s not such a Girl Scout.

For whatever your reason or style, Juno, you come across as agent provocateur. It raises hackles. Maybe that’s not your intent. Maybe it is. But perception matters. In political campaigns, in blog comments.

she has,ill pull up youtube…she also said”McShame and her are ready to be Cin C,but Obama isnt…great to Nuke Crazzies at the button,i prefer detente thank you very much

You don’t understand. I have reached the breaking point. We are weak and our candidate is flawed. We surrender. The acrimony is just to much to bear. We defeated your candidate due to both our strengths and her weaknesses but that is not enough. It is your party and not ours. We mussed up your hair and it wasn’t very nice at all. We had hopes for the country that were completely unnattainable. What were we thinking? This politics crap is for the birds. We should just get a new hobby.

We concede, you win, and we no longer care.

By the way, are we required to carry Clinton’s water as VP candidate as well? Because if that is the case, we demand to be paid the minimum wage. We will resign the vice-presidency upon her inauguration and she can fill the position with whoever she likes.

Oh, I’m glad I took one look before leaving. Was hoping I’d see you this morning. You said last night you had 8 critters and haven’t had to deal with losing one yet. Don’t think about it until that time comes. There’s nothing you can do to make it easier on yourself. It’s heart wrenching and never goes away. I lost my 22 1/2 year old Missy in October and every morning is a sad time because she’s not here to greet me with that little voice. The same with Blaze who went to the Rainbow Bridge 4 years ago. I cannot imagine what a parent goes through losing a child, particularly now.

Agent Provocateur alert!!

It would certainly free up a lot of my time. I’d have to quit blogging completely. Hooray!! And 90% of the media and 100% of the punditry would be out of a job.

there has been no name calling here, But when supporters are not mindful of facts it is important to bring them up.

I apologize for any part I had in turning your thoughtful posts into shit flinging over the last four-six weeks. There’s a scene in the movie Airport, which I think brings some enlightnment to the way these fights have worked. It’s where an elderly woman tries to slap a hysterical, screaming passenger back into reason. Then the camera pans around to show the other passengers lined up to have their turn.

“could you give me an example? ,please”

(I don’t know how to do that blue line thing. Can someone tell me?).

The big one, of course, was his campaign injecting race by accusing the Clintons of race baiting;

“You’re likable enough, Hillary.”

His bait-and-switch tactic of bringing up a negative, ie: Ferraro’s comments or the 1992 cookie fiasco, and then portraying himself as magnanimous about it. Very clever tactic!

His surrogates are VERY nasty, much nastier than Clinton’s, in fact. Think Swift Boaters. Ie: Slate.com had a gross,fake ad that was very hostile to Clinton by seeming to be ridiculously hostile to Obama. It ended with “Brought to you by friends of Hillary Clinton and Celine Dion” so it was obviously created by Obama supporters. Rovian.

They have another one running now.

A blogger here had a blog up yesterday with a tongue-in-cheek reference to “Clintoninjas” offing Obama in order to win. I dont think it gets more vile than that, frankly.

On and on.

Agent Provocateur alert!!

I’ll call Chertof in a minute

I’m sorry Scarecrow if anything I’ve said could be construed as stirring the pot – but you lost me here

would respectfully request you show how linking to irrefutable numbers is goading or unrestrained

when did facts become poo ?

I don’t see much difference between them on policy.

That tells me a lot.

too funny–a guy on the local call-in radio show just nicknamed me ’info lady’, since i don’t give my name….
i wrote a letter here yesterday about passing on things i learn here….and i do…and other things, like the note my friend wrote to go see the woodland flowers today, they’re out!!!!..guess it’s working….empowerment.

my question for your topic scarecrow is this–how are we gonna empower ourselves and each other if we’re bitch-slappin’ each other?

dunno.

==========

and one of my friends just sent me this–
”Forgot to tell you,,,,Went for a walk on the bikepath,,out back of the Plains,,,you need to see it, it’s just amazing, thousands of trilliums, dutchmans breeches, blue eyed marys, phlox and merrybells….I had heard about it for several years and finally took the time to go this year,,so glad I did…”

she said thousands……..

so, guess where i’m headed in a while?

=======

They’re not being run on her behalf. She has no obligation to denounce them. she’s kind of busy campaigning, not protecting Obama from the GOP.

when did facts become poo?

facts are poo to repugnants

Well, by all means, fill me in.

I agree, they both suck, I see them both bowing to “bipartisantship”, I see them both giving corporations yet more middle class assets, I see more of the rediculous “free trade” tirade.

they both suck they just don’t suck as bad as mccain,

Yet again I ask someone, anyone to define ’suck’.

And let’s be realistic; we saw how far Edwards got (who was my 2nd choice behind Gore) with a populist agenda.

To effect change, first you have to get elected.

i gave a Westie puppy to this doctor with brain damage,she drowned in his swimming pool,i was so destroyed,i went intoRESCUE work…i will never sacrifice a 4 legs for a 2 legs again,they are all so precious…i shall just keep finding them,rescuing them,raising money for them…that is my lifes work,they give us HOPE and JOY…nobody GIVES MOREimo,thank you for your kind words,your a gem,but you know that “G”

Poll numbers do not show your conclusions, actually they show the
opposite… dyslexia on whose part, google is your friend. Over, and
over, and over again… who gets kicked off today over this circle jerk?

Airplane plays here often – the scene where the shit hits the fan always gets a laugh

(I don’t know how to do that blue line thing. Can someone tell me?).

Just paste what you want to quote, hightlight it, then hit ” button.

lol.

and just to make sure no one thought that was what i meant. i see lots of links in your post… and opinions don’t count. just claims made as unassailable fact. we have, i think, one or two of them in the comments? maybe even from me?

my question for your topic scarecrow is this–how are we gonna empower ourselves and each other if we’re bitch trout-slappin’ each other?

offering a possible alternative?

It’s never about the facts; it always about the delivery. If we want to have a discussion, and not a fight, we all have to do better in how we say things and thinking how what we’ll say will be heard on the other side. It’s not you: it’s us.

I believe Pogo was right, but that’s my bias.

I cant even respond to this stuff.
I have read over at Taylor Marsh and My dd and see this stuff.But face it, a skinny black man with ears and no machine has beaten the most powerful Democrats with huge influence and coattails with a message of hope and change.

the VITRIOL over there is STUNNING imo

Thanks. And thank you for the work you do with our 4-legged friends. Now I really am off. Sayonara.

Peace Love Light

She certainly does. She is a Democrat and her Husband was the head of the Party. Obama never fails to say something nice about Hillary everytime he speaks.

perris – That was funny! With an ‘inference engine’ like that, the Goopers would award you a PhD from Regent in no time flat!

I miss Pogo. I miss Hobbes.

Yes, please protect us, it hurts so much, all these accusations and innuendos, we need the protection of the Great Clinton Machine to ease our pain and soothe our nerves. We will be you VP and become your loyal servant, especially if your attacks against us stop as well. Please wake us up whenever you may need our feeble assistance, and once you have become preznit we will do as our esteemed leader says. Anything to promote the unity this country so desperately deserves, along with the peace of mind that comes from being a humble servant to such a great leader.

And let’s be realistic; we saw how far Edwards got (who was my 2nd choice behind Gore) with a populist agenda.

I thought the paragraph you quoted from me was a good definition of sucking but I guess you mean more technical

sucking is being a candidate that helps the republicans redistribute our wealth to people so wealthy they will never ever spend our money

that’s suckiness

as far as “we see how far edwards got”, that was the media choosing our candidates for us

every single primary no matter what movement edwards made, even when he was second, all you heard about was obama and hillary

why”

because the republicans were salivating, drooling at the prospect of running against a clinton, a women or a black man,

we have given them their only hope and now we are giving them even more hope helping them tear our candidates apart before the election even begins, at the same time ignoring mccain

so that’s the definition of suckiness for you

i think Rhambo,our fine rep (choke ,choke) will tell HILL its over…for the good of ah hem “THE PARTY”

I usually have a high tolerance for really stupid opinions. It’s a glass house thing. But every once in a while it’s nice to hear/read something that rings true because it is true. Kinda makes the day.

I cant even got to Larry Johnsons page. its so gross. We are Democrats and this is awful. Even Mitt gracefully conceded to avoid this stuff.

Shorter Bush: the check’s in the mail.

here ya go raven. still great, even if i can’t remember which bacall/bogart movie it was.

Delurking . . .

re “coffee and poo,” one lump or two?

Relurking.

Of course it does because there is absolute hatred for Clinton by Obama’s supporters and a complete intolerance for anyone who dares defend her.

My posts are perfectly civil. I see far nastier posts directed at Clinton here, but since most are in agreement here, they aren’t seen as provocative or hackle raising.

Feel free to repost any post of mine that is uncivil or rude or personally attacking in any way.

There has always been a complete intolerance of any criticism or challenge directed at Obama, and that has been everywhere. My posts are no more provocative than anyone else’s here. The difference is that I think Clinton is the wiser choice, and that is misconstrued as being provocative.

It only proves to me further that there is an absolute intolerance for anything other than groupthink where Obama is concerned. That is disconcerting.

There are almost no Clinton supporters any longer on these blogs. We are piled on, attacked, falsely accused of things, and made to feel very unwelcome. That is unfortunate.

Sen. Clinton’s campaign can add; they know she’s not going to get the nomination this time.

However, since they can do math, they also know that if Sen. Obama escapes this primary unscathed, he’s likely looking at eight years of leadership. That make her eight years older than she is now.

If, on the other hand, her campaign can so damage Obama’s name that he loses in November, she only has to wait four years for a guaranteed nomination and a likely win nationally after one term of Sen. McCain.

Guess who Sen. Clinton wants to win in November.

If your hypothesis is correct then Bill Clinton would have never been elected.

It’s this stars-in-their-eyes blindness about Obama that is disturbing, IMO, and the reason the notion of a cult-like mentality has been mentioned by many.

The ‘mentioned by many’ line is the same weak tool used by the MSM talking heads. Take a position in your name.

Please, if you could, just answer the question without the cracks about my support for Sen. Obama.

You may have noticed I haven’t disparaged your (or anyone’s) support for Sen. Clinton.

‘

Thank you.

The best antidote to this trash is fact. I am half way through Roger
Morris Partners In Power for some background on the dynamic duo. I was
a Clintonista for years until this election cycle. I knew there were
problems, but what was I supposed to do, solve them by voting for Dole
or Bush? These people got into politics to advance themselves and not
one thing other than that. If some good came from it OK, fine, but the
bottom line is career advancement starting with working for McGovern
only because there was more opportunity in his campaign for them personally. The pattern is unbroken, they will attempt to destroy Obama
and the Democratic Party if they cannot dominate it.

elliot at 207–

my question for your topic scarecrow is this–how are we gonna empower ourselves and each other if we’re (bitch) trout-slappin’ each other?

offering a possible alternative?
=======

HEEEEEELLLLLLL YEAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!! we’re by water, too………ROFL…

elliot, i just love you, you’re a genius!!!!!!!!

Could I just have mine black? Probably not.

Please read what Clyburn has to say about the Clintons Campaign
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..232528/089
He is respected by both Dem and Rep.
Please read it with an open mind.

(I don’t know how to do that blue line thing. Can someone tell me?).

Just above where you type your comments is a line of icons. To quote someone else’s remarks and insert them in your own (with that blue line), it’s quite simple:

1) In the “leave your response” box, put your cursor where you want the inserted material to go.
2) Click on the upside down double quotation mark icon just above the box where you type. This will put the html tags into your comment — blockquote and /blockquote.
3) From the earlier comment, copy the text you want next to that blue line into your browser’s clipboard (ctrl-C).
4) Put the cursor between the blockquote and /blockquote tags, and past the quoted material in (ctrl-V).
5) Finish your own comment.
6) Hit Preview — Preview is your Friend! — to see that you did it properly.
7) Hit Submit Comment, and you’re done.

Have fun!

“info lady” – not a bad moniker for sure. Thank you for all you do and enjoy the flowers. My contractor has parked his trucks on top of all my small bulbs in the lawn and so this year(sigh)I only have about 10 up instead of the hundreds I usually do.

7) Hit Sumbit Comment, and you’re done.

That should be “Hit Submit Comment . . .”

Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is . . .

There are almost no Clinton supporters any longer on these blogs. We are piled on, attacked, falsely accused of things, and made to feel very unwelcome. That is unfortunate.

I was and am a clinton supporter, I have never thought obama had the experience to get things done we need to get done

but I am also a hillary detractor, I think she is going to be another corporate tool

right now I don’t think anyone thinks hillary can win, she is basically in the race in the hopes that there is a deconstruction of obama and she will be the last candidate standing

it looks to me like she is counting on the republicans to go after obama, to assume obama is the candidate and that the republcans unload their worst, enough to bring obama down just before the final primary and if the republicans do come up with something devastating, hillary will be there

I think both of these candidates are flawed and give the republicans an actual chance to win the election

right now I think the longer clinton is in the race the better the chances for mccain

Juno,
I hate that you have to fight for your woman alone. I think your fact are flawed but I used to admire Hillary until she lied. I cant see why a scorched earth policy will help any of us. And while it may not be true the fact that the AA community feels betrayed by their friend the Clintons is a powerful thing.

People should choose or change their own mind..can’t force people (remember the people in Iraq?) I would suggest voting for the person that represents YOU. If you are progressive vote Obama..if you are Republican lite well there is another choice. Who voted against war and who voted for war twice? Not critizing anyone’s choice but please weigh the facts before choosing.

And you want to get dairy goats too? Wow(oh, and just as an fyi — we used to sell goat’s milk and colastrum to a local dog breeder when her girls had too many babies to feed. She said it worked like a charm).

First of all, to ask only why Obama sucks when a person has suggested that both of them do is disparaging.

Second, you asked this twice in a way that you clearly cannot fathom how anyone can possibly think Obama “sucks” (a better word might have been used by the original poster), and conversely, because you didn’t ask this person what it is about Clinton he thinks “sucks”, you clearly agree with him on that point. It just goes to that intolerance of anyone who doesn’t worship Obama that is ubiquitous on the Obama side, IMO.

Please accept my sincere apologies for anything we Obama supporters have ever done to hurt your feelings. Part of surrender is acceptance and confession of guilt. As the Good Lord says, when your enemies strike you, turn the other cheek so you can get struck again. I will personally be attending Mass today and doing 10 Acts of Contrition, 10 Hail Marys, and 10 Our Fathers as a penance. Perhaps I can be forgiven for my foolishness. I am beginning to feel better already.

BTW, I hear that MyDD is chock full of Clinton supporters with the correct line of thinking and that any deviance from the peaceful orthodoxy is not only tolerated but strictly promoted. Sinners are expelled so that their nasty ideas don’t foul the peaceful ambiance. Sounds like a very nifty place to hang out, you might want to try it. At any rate, enjoy the bliss.

OfT,

I’m a big tent guy and I’ll vote for whomever the Democratic Presidential nominee is.

Since she took over, Speaker Pelosi’s funding of the Iraq occupation has been completely unacceptable. Since the Bear Stearns bailout and Wall Street’s admission that we are in a recession/depression, Speaker Pelosi has imho had plenty of political cover to stop funding the occupation in an orderly way.

This morning I gave $25 to Shirley Golub, the Speaker’s opponent in California’s 08 Democratic primary. Then I called the Speaker’s office to explain why I donated to Ms. Golub. I also told them I was prepared to give Ms. Golub more money if Speaker Pelosi did not begin cutting off funding for the occupation.

Juno
Did you listen to Clyburn?

1) In the “leave your response” box, put your cursor where you want the inserted material to go.
2) Click on the upside down double quotation mark icon just above the box where you type. This will put the html tags into your comment — blockquote and /blockquote.
3) From the earlier comment, copy the text you want next to that blue line into your browser’s clipboard (ctrl-C).
4) Put the cursor between the blockquote and /blockquote tags, and past the quoted material in (ctrl-V).
5) Finish your own comment.
6) Hit Preview — Preview is your Friend! — to see that you did it properly.
7) Hit Submit Comment, and you’re done.

Have fun!

Thanks!

Oops.

I’ll have to practice this quote thing.

That’s why step 6 is in there!

I’ll check out MyDD. Thank you.

Yep. Lol.

i heart you very much,yes,im now of the ANIMAL KINGDOM,and so damn HAPPY ,i could slap myself silly

Say hi to Carmela Clinton while you are there!

You are most sincerely welcome.

OBAMA is such a fine man,i dont want to see him destroyed

dear gaia Scarecrow – am sorry to go all Leisure Guy on ya – but I don’t get how my delivery was in any way vitriolic

amidst the opinion laced little storm you respond to the one with a fact based link – wth?

Obama didn’t have to make the vote.

i love seeing him with his kids(girls)…he wants a better WORLD FOR THEM imo

2 words
KYL LIEBERPUTZ…i rest my case

He has done the impossible or should I say , we have done the impossible.

Now, now, it must be done, for the unity and peace the party so desperately needs. I for one will brace myself for it, cry a bit, accept it, and then be on my merry way.

who is Carmela?

Hillary is the DLC and I dont remember FDL really liking the DLC

yup the CORPORATE MEDIA will NEVER STAND FOR ,a GRASS ROOTS guy supported by almost 2,000,000…ONLINE SUPPORTERS

Tony Soprano spouse, the lovely princess Carmela Soprano.

no we cant

aha,im out da loop

St. Carmela is the patron saint of peace. It is Hillary’s secret Catholic name, that only Catholics know about. But don’t tell anybody!

exactly!

Sorry, I went a bit around the bend.

The nomination was Clinton’s to lose, and she did it – she snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

She made up stories. She failed to Lead. She doesn’t have the ‘right stuff’ to be President of the United States of America – no matter how many Self-Interested Big Monied Backers think she does.

Obama has campaigned with one hand tied behind his back, because that’s all it’s taken.

Once he’s the clear Nominee, and supported by the Party, his speechmaking will reach profound rhetorical heights in giving Voice to Our Concerns!

It’s time to put an end to the nonsense! It’s time to do the right thing!

It’s time for all of US to put Obama on Our shoulders and Support the Democratic Campaign to Restore the Constitution, across the board!

Believe me, I so wish Gore had gotten in or Edwards had survived, but he didn’t.

I actually agree more with Obama philosophically than with Clinton, although it’s very close, and I think the Obama campaign has demonized Clinton to an unrealisitic degree while deifying Obama to an unrealistic degree. I think this will, in the end, do the Democrats in, not a legitimate primary race.

People can criticize Clinton all they want over her campaign (it has not been as nasty as Obama would like to claim, nor has his been as nice), but the fact is, it’s NOTHING compared to what the GOP is going to do.

Dems were mad at Kerry for being “weak”. He took the high road. He lost. He was pilloried by his own party (Dems do this ALL the time!). Clinton knows this. I don’t have to like something to recognize the necessity of it. I’m also sick of the myth that Obama’s nose is clean here. It isn’t. And if he’s the nominee, I hope he’ll go at the GOP with all he’s got too. But can he? Seems he can’t without negating his own campaign. That’s a problem.

lets hope Rahm has a little STRAIGHT TALK for BILLARY…soon

First of all, to ask only why Obama sucks when a person has suggested that both of them do is disparaging.

Second, you asked this twice in a way that you clearly cannot fathom how anyone can possibly think Obama “sucks” (a better word might have been used by the original poster), and conversely, because you didn’t ask this person what it is about Clinton he thinks “sucks”, you clearly agree with him on that point. It just goes to that intolerance of anyone who doesn’t worship Obama that is ubiquitous on the Obama side, IMO.

Way too many assumptions in the above.

I disagree with many of Sen. Clinton’s decisions in this race, but don’t believe she ’sucks’.

I believe she’s being defeated by a better candidate that is running a better campaign.

Kinda simple.

And how you get ‘intolerance’ from my question is waaay beyond me.

I don’t want to cut in, but I’m a huge fan of yours. I go way back under a different pseudonym, I’m sure I’m butchering this, “Mom likes dead people.”

I think 80% of FDL understands what you post. I think in the current climate, any mention of either candidate’s name, is perceived by around 20% as vitriol. I thought scarecrow nailed it when he said, it’s not about you, it’s about us. The polling and delegate counts provide unhelpful cover for liberal issues. Both candidates imho have turned to the right to win the general. I understand the political realities, but as a liberal, it leaves us out of the discussion.

“Of course it does because there is absolute hatred for Clinton by Obama’s supporters and a complete intolerance for anyone who dares defend her.” I would typically not respond to you, but here you have no authority to assert your conclusion as a generalized fact.

I know of many people, self included, who have been thoughtfully ambivalent about which candidate to favor. The phrase has been “two strong candidates.” This is highly similar to your assertion that all Ob supporters are in cult; I wish you had a fact-check. Plus, the assertion of the same statement over & over does not make it more accurate or true. Screaming/holding your breath will not bring on the truth.

Hillary has become a Republican right before our eyes. Rush wants her as do all the right wing pundits

Get help.

worse SHE THUMBED HER NOSE at bloggers and grass roots people

She has always been a republican, just lived with a democrat poseur.

I’ll say it again. It’s not you. It’s us.

As scary as this may seem, I was once a parent. My kids would bicker, tease each other, each goading the other. I’d listen till I’d had enough, and then I’d land on the next comment that was even remotely problematic. It was never the most serious, nor necessarily directed at the main perpetrator. It just happened to be the one in the line of fire when I snapped.

Life is unfair, and I’m not upset at you, or anyone else, for that matter, yet. Just trying to keep us from hurting each other. My comments were meant for all of us. [And I’m not suggesting we’re all children; just human.]

prolly so…i defended them on eveything ,till that got down and dirty,i actually liked them,not anymore

Not only wrong but unfair.

I see. On the one hand, Obama is not as clean as the cult followers think. He’s just as dirty as Hillary has been, maybe more so. On the other hand, he takes the damned high road, which is what got Kerry beat.
Makes a lot of sense to me.

one should send their kids to school for argumentation and debate,we would have better voters better citizens imo

Life is unfair

i tell my nephews that we have a responsibility to not add to the unfairness.

again HOW has been dirty,can somebody splain this to me

LEMONS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lemonade,or better lemondrops…”g”

one should send their kids to school for argumentation and debate,we would have better voters better citizens imo

is there a remedial program for adults? if so, i want to attend.

I’m on your side. Jeez, I’m repeating Juno’s contradictory arguments.

yup MARRIAGE COUNSELING……..hahahahahahahahahaha

I’ve never said all Obama supporters are in a cult.

I’ve said there is a lot of cult-like mentality there.

There is a big difference.

The Clintons’ only priority is money and power, calling themselves Democrats is a means to an end. I really think of them as independents with no agenda except personal ambition which is leveraged off name recognition, confusion about who they are and what they stand for, a weak media and a lot of energy. HRC reminds me of Madonna, lots of energy and little talent but still more enery than her competition. It is much harder to do good than to do bad and the Clintons have learned this and practice their lessons.

It gets that way when the agent provocateur works the system.

im not dissing you,i just want somebody to tell me how he has been dirty?
no whitewater,no prayer breakfasts,no MONICA ,i just dont get it

You asked only why the person thinks Obama sucks.

Period.

That was your line 2 weeks ago, read review repeat.

My point is this. Did Grant have to negotiate with Lee at Appommatox from a position of weakness? Would anyone have any respect at all for Obama if he, as Grant, came on bended knee and asked Lee for his terms? The Clintonistas have to first begin to accept that they are in the losing position here. Unless they decide that their goal is to destroy Obama and live to fight another day. Peace has never come from the stronger position begging the weaker position for conciliation. It happens in the reverse. Any accomodations made to the Clinton camp before their surrender is just seen as a sign of weakness and exploited to continue fighting the battle.

Yes, I concluded the same thing.

yup MARRIAGE COUNSELING……..hahahahahahahahahaha

lol. never mind then – that is TOO high a price to pay (being married again, i mean).

please accept my appologies ,if i got this mixed up…missspoke?”g”

Yes, we are so irrational, I know. 2 + 2 = 4, and 9 > 8, stuff like that. We drank the kool-aid and it clouds our judgment. I must unlearn so many things.

I haven’t seen it either. The worst thing I saw was the “Your, likable enough, Hillary,” comment. He apologized for it. I’ve since come to understand what would inspire it.

You see a lot of holding him responsible for every nasty thing some commentor on a post has said.

I bet if an ISP trace was done the source would be a laptop on the
Clinton bus.

i took argumentation and debate…i think OBAMA is great at it,he holds the HYDROGEN bomb,back,he is a cool one imo

Thank you, Scarecrow, for your tolerance, and juno I apologize for coming across like a sport’s fan with an air-horn!

I was agnostic on Hillary for Years, but by Super Tuesday, she had fumbled what should have been an insurmountable lead, and an inevitable Nomination.

That’s when I took notice of Obama, and realized that he basically fast-walked himself right up next to her – to her shock – and then took one step past, where he’s been coasting ever since.

He’s got the ‘right stuff’ – he can go all the way, imvho.

Part of what you do is called “hair-splitting.” It is a tactic, exhausting and used to just wear out the conversation. Enjoy yourself.

That’s why I keep my identity secret. Would want to see him forced to disavow me.

she prolly gets paid a million samolians,like Penn,hill is not a financial wizard imo

Make that Wouldn’t.

Ahhhhhh, yet another loverly morning at the Lake.

My advice to everyone is if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. MyDD is right there in the cupboard above the kitchen sink.

i tell myself it’s a temporary fever that we all have – and that it will pass.

Could even be more complex; e.g., spend the second half of the day on another blog antagonizing Clinton supporters against Obama.

I noticed a couple of similar commentors a few weeks prior to the Texas and Ohio primaries. They disappeared afterwards.

I lift my glass to citizen Norske, wherever you are… that post on
the history of democratic politics from JFK up was one fine piece, up
of another post yesterday. Salute!!

lifes too short
hahahahaha

Agreed. See ya.

I think that more of them will partake of the delusional kool-aid than they realize at the moment. Can’t wait to see them try to contort themselves into voting for McCain. Which I never considered as an option, even though in that case there would really be no option.

Here you go Juno
You should like this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..inionsbox1

Seems a well trained provocateur… HRC took Morris, Penn and Schoen to
raise 15 years ago, hooked them up and made them rich, now she “owes”
them money… right. Set them all up with foreign government contracts
to boot, but had to “fire” Penn… right. But the worst is that clown
husband of hers who still don’t know who his daddy was.

Clinton is winning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSwcv7vE4xQ

when i said “all of us” i meant really meant ALL. not one side other the other.

Why Hillary Sucks.

Keep him safe
As Head of State
Make Howard Dean
His running mate

Burma Shave

Sorry, my mistake.

i think her stating she wanted to use nuclear retaliation in the middle east,and that she cynicaly voted for KYL/LIEBERPUTZ,has proven his point that its biz as usual for her..imo

I come to the lake for intelligent, factual discourse. I’ll generalise by saying that every pup here is an intelligent person who understands instantly the opinion of another. If the pup does not understand, he or she will ask for clarification. Once in a while, one will state what he has to say, not once or twice, this pup will monopolise the whole thread trying to convince everyone that he or she is right, that they all are wrong, or delusional, or is being misunderstood. At one point, one has to stop herself or himself, grow up and move on. We got your point, we all understand. But noooooo, the trolling goes on, because at that point, it IS trolling.

One should just shut up at one point and back away slooooowly from the keyboard. Everyone understood your point. Your opinion is exactly that, an opinion, and we all know where you are coming from. Grow the fuck up.

You are making my experience here a bad one.

You got more attention than you deserve, you got all the attention you wanted. Stop acting like a victim.

including myself – that wasn’t meant as a criticism.

How about: If Obama is the candidate, the Democrats will lose. Period.

No, I don’t.

If you’re on a blog where everyone agrees with each other 99.9% of the time, someone who dares come along and express a different viewpoint may well seem like they are less than sincere and have some nefarious agenda and are exhausting.

My arguments are sincere. I take this election very seriously.

then answer how you feel about Hillary lying. Please
About NAFTA, Bosnia, 9-11and Chelsea, and others

If you support her then convince me.

Thank you, theresa43 – you’re right! I jumped in the Obama scale and called for a weigh-in!

I can accept and support however it goes – how about you?

i know he is a chocolate man,and is unelectable.,right?

New Hampshire’s primary a model for the upcoming national election?

Racism, sexism and old fashioned prejudice? “Pathetic!”

And the reverse is also just as true. Therefore, we are actually witnessing the race for the Democratic nomination in 2012, which will certainly go to the loser of the current race. As an Obama supporter, I say that we will take our chances now. If you are right, Clinton will have her chance. If this is unacceptable, Clinton must run us over to get there. I say go for it. So sorry the her campaign couldn’t garner the necessary delegates, but there’s always next time. But give us your best shot now. Tear down Obama’s candidacy to set her up for 2012. We will be unmoved.

good news for Obama supporters
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..199/503218

yet we knew as a fact that would be the general election as well, we are fielding the easiest candidates to beat

why?

because they are the most qualified?

no

because the media forced them down our throats and we fell for it that’s why

The only presidential candidate I sent money to was Edwards. I’ll support whomever the Democratic party selects. I don’t buy the arguments that either Democratic candidate is unelectable.

he might NOT be the best
but imho he is definately UP TO THE TASK

Actually I agree with you (notice I said the reverse is just as true) but I’ve been playing devil’s advocate on and off today.

If you believe your analogy, by all means continue your hateful negatives towards the Clintons. But – I believe she loves her country, just as Obama does and if she loses the nomination, like everyone knows she will — she will pick up the pieces, rally her supporters (almost as many as Obama has) to campaign for him (if he wants her to) and put a Democrat back in the White House. There really is too much at stake for this next election. The country cannot absorb another 4 years of Republican rule.

I am a Florida Democrat who did vote for Clinton in the primary and I am disallusioned that my vote (once again) did not count. My choice is not Obama (still) but I will vote Democrat in this November election.

Can everyone say the same? And isn’t what this thread is all about?

Nobody forces anything down my throat! No “Silent German” here!

Yes — see my 337 post. Thank you.

Many earlier posts here were about Clinton supporters not accepting the loss and not supporting Obama. If she were to change her tune that would be nice, but I don’t expect it. I can promise that I won’t vote for McCain, but that’s the best I can do. Obama had nothing to do with what hapened in Michigan and Florida.

I didn’t say anything about race, did I? It is you who are jumping to that conclusion. You bad!!

lets not look for a SAINT,how about,an energetic man with a plan

no its the hush word,never has to be said,just implyed…but guess what…he is 1/2black and …also 1/2 snow white…so many can come under his umbrella with us

Another agent provocateur, ignore fact, pivot to trash, read review
repeat… they take shifts at the troll laptop on the Clinton bus.

OT Repeat of “Gulf of Tonkin” just around the corner in Mideast. The only thing our current “fascist leaders” can do is create “fuck ups” for politcal gain!!! Meanwhile New York Cops acquitted in unjustified murder of unarmed man! WTF!!! Weak case by New York DA!!!!

Deja Vu if you are old enough to remember!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems to me that our country should be able to come up with much better candidates for the most powerful job in the world. All three candidates are not qualified. They have not had any experience in Management. All three have been pampered all of their working history, and have no real business thinking they could handle this job.

Obama has the least experience of all three, and no one knew anything about him 6 months ago. All we knew was that he made great speech’s. Over the last few months we’ve learned a great deal more about him, and what has been learned will hurt him so much that I believe he will be unelectable.

Clinton has different problems, but major problems that will hurt her also.

Seems to me that McCain will snatch victory from what was a ’slam dunk’ for the Democrats if they had put up a qualified nominee.

BTW, I just received two negative pieces of mail from the Clinton campaign, and I am refusing them and marked them “Return to Sender.”

theresa43 – Classy! This has been my idea of a Big Tent Discussion thread that only the Dems can have.

“Trust” in the process is too scary for the Goopers!

“Over the last few months we’ve learned a great deal more about him, and what has been learned will hurt him so much that I believe he will be unelectable.”

Would you mind articulating why he is “unelectable?”

he darker than Billary

sorry OBAMA has the same credentials ABRHAM LINCOLN had…

Obama: How much experience is really required?

By Albert St. George, 2008 Readers Advisory Columnist

Much has been made about Barack Obama’s relative inexperience. Hillary Clinton has made experience the centerpiece of her campaign against Obama, and many Republicans see the issue as a big advantage for John McCain.

Is Obama’s experience enough to qualify him to lead our country? It may be instructive to compare Obama’s experience to another relative lightweight who once became president.

Obama’s political experience includes 8 years in the Illinois state legislature and 4 years in the United States Senate, and lost once in a race for Congress.

We had a president once before with VERY similar credentials: Abraham Lincoln had spent 8 years in the Illinois state legislature, 2 years in the United States Congress, and lost once in a race for Senate, before becoming president in 1861.

Now, this doesn’t mean that Obama will be the next Abraham Lincoln, but we should be careful about dismissing Obama as inexperienced, as a guy who “just gave a speech.” Lincoln “just gave a speech” in Peoria, Illinois in 1954 against slavery; like Obama, he was young but willing to take a principled position. There are worse qualities to have in a president.

Because he is mixed race? Because he does not where a flag pin on his lapel? Because of the redundant sound bites of a fascist media making the experiences of the Rev’s life with an illogical association like that of a witch hunts, that Obama is not patriotic? Or that Obama made the connection between energy cost and the obvious decline of America, compromising values we hold sacred, in the lust for Executive Oil’s desire to steal Iraq’s oil to perpetuate the current oil energy delivery system, while our quality of life is eviscerated by the king and his corporate cohorts in colonial crime???

Constitution presidential requirements Born in America/ 35 years of age or older! These are the only prerequisites. Substance for the American people vs corporate bullshit for profit????? Money for life? The nation’s general welfare as envisioned by our founders, is not communism folk!!!!! Go re read the preamble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bravo!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Management, business management per chance? You must be really high this morning.

Clintonistas need to understand that Obama is the nominee and it’s time to treat him as such. Since Billary just sent a piece of negative mail to me here in Indiana that I returned to sender I will respond in kind:

So mad I can’t get it right:

http://www.light-to-dark.com/F…..hoice.html

There.

:)

The idea of experience misframes the question. The issue is “Judgment” and Obama has shown better judgment than eather of the others over the years. I agree this extended contest won’t help. I am considering not voting for Hillary. I think the lady is nuts. Her only saving grace is that perhaps she isn’t crazier than McCain.

http://www.light-to-dark.com/S…..toons.html

Enjoy.

Those whose minds are cluttered with crap, must be challenged! The Silent Germans’ “silence” enabled butchery. Obama was against this “Gliewitz” like response to 911 attacks from the start. “Judgment” is the operative word, unlike the corporate aristocratic fascist who used 911 to exact the Iraq Oil Plot,” to enable their current power hold, while holding America and Iraq Hostage!

meanwhile Bin Lauden is at large??? go figure!!!

‘Unelectable’….(at the risk of being called a bigot), from my point of view:

30% of the country’s voters will vote Democrat, no matter who is the Nominee.

30% of the country’s voters will vote Republican, no matter who is the Nominee.

That leaves 40% of the voters that will elect the POTUS:

10% to 15% are bigots, and will not vote for a black man.

The remaining 30% to 25% will split their vote evenly.

I, too, like using the term judgment over experience, however, I fear judgment is a word loaded with collateral damage.

Perhaps discernment puts more of the payload on target?

It’s about time we had a Leader who can ’see’ the ‘right thing’ to do, AND be able to Personally tell right from wrong, too.

No more Front Daddies, or Front Mommas, for the Power Elite! Aren’t We all tired of Agenda-Politicians, who can spout the High Moral Line, but whose actions betray a Morally-Blind Loyalty to Sold-Out Self-Interest?

The problem with Hillary is the problem with McCane – it’s more of the Same.

We need a Leader with Better Vision and the Courage to Represent US – the Rule-of-Law abiding Citizens of America – for a Change.

Right on !!

I agree with your assessment of the numbers! “That leaves 40% of the voters that will elect the POTUS:” The New Hampshire model?

That 40% is “un-enrolled.” I’m part of that 40%. Actions in combination with words define bigots. I apologize, and made no inference that you are a bigot, in my post. That would be very ignorant on my part! To life, not servile prejudices and the non-logic of the “dark ages” preceding the “Age of Reason!”

The real crux of the Democrats problem was contained in that one statement uttered by Wills -

“…45 Republicans beat 51 Democrats.”

Doesn’t that just tell the whole story?

Here’s the bottom line for the Democrats, and the country – things will only get worse in Congress >under a Clinton Presidency.< </p>

Those Democrats supporting Clinton, like Bayh of Indiana, are also members of the DLC – and those members cared less about their party or the country than they do about the benefits to themselves. All these many years since 1994 the Democratic party has been in sharp decline. Their opposition to the Right grew weaker and weaker — with the support of those same DLC members.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WILL DIE – BUT THAT TOO IS WHAT THE DLC HOPES FOR….

You’ve been fu**ed over for the past 8 years – support Clinton and you really are fu**ing your own families, by deafault..

I said earlier in the thread this morning that these 3 guys would get off. It’s real simple. The police anywhere in this country could shoot your grandmother to death while she’s weeding her flower garden and the police and courts will manage to justify the act. As far as the judicial system is concerned the police can do no wrong. Period. Serve and protect, my ass. The only people the police protect are the wealthy.

No justice, no peace.

In the Presidential, my guess is about seventy-percent will vote for the candidate who is not a Republican. It’s about the economy.

Could be, but once the ‘masses’ find out that Obama wants to increase the tax on Capital Gains, (a Tax that affects just about anyone with a 401K), they may re-evaluate their position.

and PS…..I don’t think the ‘bigot’ vote will change under any circumstances.

We’re just about 6 months away from the White House, Both Houses of Congress and the Next Two Supreme Court Picks.

There is No Reason to think that ‘08 will be anything different than the ‘06 Avalanche Two Years Bigger Down the Mountain.

With the Dems in Uncontested Control, imvho, we’ll see a return to Win-Win Compromise Politics, and the Goopers can rest assured that they’ll get their representative piece, too.

What they won’t get are any more of their “Our Way or the Highway” ‘wins.’

Obama is Strong Enough to Referee the Dems, and also Be Fair to the Republicans.

There is No Reason to think that ‘08 will be anything different than the ‘06 Avalanche Two Years Bigger Down the Mountain

yes.