Although I’ve expressed concern in the past that the public is absorbing their opinion of McCain from a fawning press and it’s hard to get any traction on him, I don’t think the extended primary is to blame. And like Digby, I’m not convinced that the primary situation is bad for Democrats at all:
To me, this primary is actually a good thing for the fall. All this hand wringing strikes me as typical Democratic nervous nellie-ism. A huge increase in Democratic voter registration, building of strong ground operations in most states, new technologies being beta tested, lots of media coverage and battle testing for the nominee are of benefit to the nominee in the fall. Meanwhile, the Democrats stay at center stage while McCain wanders around in obscurity, failing to raise money and leaving a trail of gaffes in his wake. As long as they don’t know at whom to aim their fire the Republicans can’t cement their narrative. In the end, I remain convinced that we are going into an election that is so fundamentally seismic that either of them can win it, even if more closely than we might want, due to the breakthrough nature of their campaigns. The primary continuing on is not going to change that.
I don’t think people realize that the democratization the internet has brought to the system is also one of the main reasons why the campaign goes on. If you think superdelegates are undemocratic, back in the bad old days (of a couple of cycles ago) big party donors pulled the strings by pulling the money when they decided that someone had no chance to win. Today, both candidacies are where they are on the basis of avid small donor supporters contributing online and that’s prolonged things past the point where it would have in the past. Thousands of Clinton supporters keep sending her money– ten million since last night, apparently. So, if you don’t like the fact that the campaign continues, blame the internet. It wouldn’t have happened under the old paradigm.
When I watch my teevee I marvel at the self-absorption of the beltway bores and their fascination with covering the gotcha-du-jour — all the while the seismic shift in the way politics is being conducted goes relatively ignored.
I can only guess that when the tectonic plates move this dramatically the people standing on them are slow to sense it. But the ability to raise millions of dollars in small donations online in a heartbeat based on a great speech or a well-played political moment dwarfs by several factors of magnitude anything that can be done in a room full of hedge fund managers and their checkbooks. Function is catching up with form. Politicians need not promise one thing to the public and another thing to their backers because the public now is their backer. The effect this is going to have on politics long-term cannot be overstated.
Meanwhile, tens of millions of those dollars are being poured into identifying Democratic voters and getting that information into usable databases. I’ve written about it here and here, but the advantage that the Republicans have had since the mid-nineties with regard to their Voter Vault is being wiped away in a heartbeat.
One pundit after another continues to bemoan the damage that an extended primary is doing to the Democrats, without any awareness of the concomitant changes in electoral politics that are rocking their world.
Rather than saying " Democratic leaders resigned themselves yesterday to a prolonged and potentially damaging battle," someone needs to be writing that "an extended Democratic primary is an unmitigated disaster for the Republicans."
Because it is.
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so!
The problem is people really do believe McCain is of an “independent” bent. The longer the Hillary-Obama drama continues, the more that misconception of McCain and his policies will harden. Just this morning, a nurse in my dr.’s office asked me “when will we start hearing about McCain?” My answer, “beats me.”
So, true! I’ll be helping with a voter registration drive Saturday. I expect that the increase in Democratic registration is going to have years of effect.
Jane, they’d be dangerous if they could you know, use the internet. Or even understood it. Their medium is near-death and on life-support but no one has told them yet. I guess when their huge paychecks stop coming in they’ll figure it out. Or go work for the Heritage Foundation as PR Flacks.
Rasmussen’s polling definitely shows that in Minnesota at least, McCain’s numbers have gone down lately.
Of course the all-knowing all-seeing David S. Broder thinks “The Democrats have to resolve this somehow. The longer this goes on, the greater the costs in November.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..inionsbox1
For Broder, the Democrats’ nightmare continues and so we Must. All. Agree.
Well, Jane says it all here: “Rather than saying ” Democratic leaders resigned themselves yesterday to a prolonged and potentially damaging battle,” someone needs to be writing that “an extended Democratic primary is an unmitigated disaster for the Republicans.”
I guess it’s time for a little letter to the editor.
Totally OT: New favorite bumpersticker: “Be nice to America….or we’ll bring Democracy to your country.”
Thanks, Jane, great post. I also think that people need to keep in mind that it is still a long time until November. The talk we hear now of supporters of one Democratic candidate who won’t vote for the other one in November if they are the nominee seems to me to be at least in part a symptom of just how strongly people care. Once we settle on a nominee and the campaign focus turns to McCain, I think the hard feelings can be steered away from the Democratic candidate and sent straight to McCain with even more enthusiasm than we are seeing now in the primary. McCain has so many fronts on which he can be attacked for flip-flops and inconsistencies that this will be a campaign all Democrats can get behind. With the tools that are being funded now, it will be a sight to behold.
Digby:
Like Digby & you, Jane, I think the prolonged primary has been overall a good thing. But I don’t count the continuing ‘battle-testing’ among those good things. That’s part of the price, not the benefit.
Frankly, I’ve seen enough of the ‘testing’ phase against each other, and would prefer that the candidates start waging the battle against McCain.
I suspect that won’t happen until the primaries are ended. But ‘battle-testing’, at this point, just damages and exhausts the candidates. It would probably be better for us if the candidates started giving it a break, and collected their energy and some reserves for the general election.
That said, I’d still rather see the primaries continue till June 3rd. The infrastructure support and voter enthusiasm that they’re building is invaluable.
.
I totally buy into digby’s reasoning (and yours too Jane) with one glaring exception. Instead of using this free media exposure to pump up the Democratic party, and show what we stand for, Hillary in particular, seems determined to make the general election as close as possible. I wrote her an email (obviously to no avail) the very day she said McCain and herself were qualified to be CIC, but not Obama asking her to cease or lose my vote. You can all see how well that is going…
In fact, these developments have actually pushed me into rejoining the Dem. Party in order to be able to vote in the Oregon primary which may actually mean something this year. I will immediately go back to being an “Indie” after the primary.
Anyways, I look forward to seeing if/how much the media will pay attention to McCain’s vast negatives. And since I’ll be in France, I will be very intriqued by the way the International press will cover the story vs. the shameful US media.
amen Jane !
believe it will also lessen the impact of Corp Owned Media – I really don’t know if BO is truly different, but I do know he is perceived as different by millions of americans – and I think it will provide him a cushion to mitigate some of their crap
in my fevered progressive dreams I see the General as a possible twofer takedown – the Republics and their Corp Fluffers, plus that whole kewl thingy, believe some of them are gonna turn tail no later than August
PhoenixWoman:
It’s kind of sad that it takes the threat of a collapsing economy to get people to vote Democratic.
.
An appropriate response to you nurse could have been: “Have you been watching Bush for the past 7+ years? Do you understand the word DITTO?”
If Broderella thinks it’s a good idea to end the primary now, then I KNOW we need to continue voting.
I wonder if Obama wins and we retain (or increase) control of Congress in the fall if the “Fairness Doctrine” might be resurrected. It was hated by the GoOPers for good reason… and while we’re at it, how about busting up the big media corporations? Seems only fair to me… and it would start to give a voice to the voiceless again.
Jane,
I surely hope you are
rightcorrect.I’m a little afeared of all the infighting by members of the Left.
Okay, more than a little. I’m nervous.
Woke up to the story about the Rev. Wright Ad in the Carolinas controversy.
Again, a good reason we need to stay united. No circle firing. Let’s not hand them any more ammunition.
‘Kay pups?
Jane, you are tenacious.
I was just thinking the same thing, but it would be good to have one more confirmation. What does Joe Klein say?
I believe Hacktacular Howie had a quote from him today pretty much agreeing with Broderella. It seems most ALL the VSP think it needs to end.
read this Rolling Stone article on the mechanics of Team Obama – and read it as if it were about any Dem campaign – just look at what they’ve done and how they did it. can you say infrastructure ?, I knew ya could :D
rolling stone
Of course the Pundinistas are not going to notice the paradigum shift in the power base; the next logical step is realizing that the internet plays a role in a paradigm shift away from any relevance of the Pundacracy, itself.
I watch the boob toob only when there is an “event” or KO or Tiger Woods is kicking someone’s ass (the political one, and the original sports version).
There’s no reason anyone with access to the real toobz should feel obligated to listen to the boobs for information. If it’s all slanted anyway, I’d rather choose my internet sites where the slant I pick is exactly the one I want.
I’m surprised that anyone frets about national polls about McCain seriously. Don’t they remember Giuliani, or Joe-mentum in 2004?
actually, she gets it. she’s a republican for Obama. she catches hell from her relatives in Oklahoma. they send her via email all the latest wingnut propaganda.
or the fact he had 7 weeks of unfettered fact free campaigning and fluffing . . .and his numbers never moved above 45%
This might work in the Dems favor too. Rezko and the GOP…(I hope this is the right link)
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..884/502533
Digby sayeth:
Well, apparently Hillary has learned one thing from Obama that she didn’t know when she started this campaign: It pays to cultivate your base, rather than relying on MajorCorp, USA to give you the Big Buck$. Maybe now Hillary will start listening to her base, as well.
Bob in HI
I posted that when it came out, I got ZERO feedback.
Ah Raven, yer just ahead of the curve is all. You set the fashion trends rather than follow the rest of the crowd!
In regards to the Reverend Wright issue, it should be used as an example of just how bigoted the rethuglians really are as much as they try to deny it… it is a glaring TRUTH of their SOP of politics. It has always been that way and will never change until they are reduced to a few fanatics who refuse to see the folly of their ways!!
Happens to me alla time.
But, I just put a chicken in the oven and when it is ready I’ll send you some feed back. :)
Oh, hell. They’re going to use it both ways.
F’ing Users.
(Don’t forget the Good Reverend will be interviewed by Bill Moyers this Friday night.)
Fat fucking chance. The DLC does not listen to “little people”. Ever. She “cares” about the people she has to interact with who are not lobbyists or corporate fat-cats only as long as she can (1) pull a lever for her or (2) add money to her account in amounts exceeding $2000 a pop. HRC is out for one thing at this point, HRC. Damn the rest of us, the Democratic party or anything else. If she can’t take the nomination we can all just burn in hell as far as she’s concerned.
Can someone please tell me what the Voter Vault is for the Republicans, i.e., the advantage the Republicans have had on Dems since the 90’s? Is it big churches or more than that?
Well, I do too, but this thing is not all biscuits and gravy. It means the disappearance of any truly national narrative. Instead what we get are hundreds of Internet narratives, and everyone weaves themselves a coccoon of their choice. The dialogue between different points of view stops, and the polarization that is so often bemoaned continues, apace.
Hillary, perhaps through no fault of her own, perpetuates this ghettoization of political discourse: she has the highest negatives of anyone except maybe George W. Bush. She may talk about working across the aisle, but please show me one good piece of legislation that she has achieved as a result.
Obama, on the other hand, has a conscious policy of rising above identity politics, and shows an ability to speak to the different sides of an issue in a way that brings people together, IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Bob in HI
errp… should read (1) get them to pull a lever for her …
Sorry OT – but this is too funny
Rep. Ted Poe (R-Texas) speaking about food shortages and corn just said…
You can only get 4 bags of rice at a time at Walmart. This is an outrage!
or something close to that…I’m just cracking up! (okay, I’m twisted.)
More money, better organization and an absolute determination that the Dems will not get anything. It worked but I think it’s over.
I think it’s a huge database. I just did the online training last night in Democracy for America Night School to begin learning how to put together a field plan for a campaign. The DNC is doing its own huge database and individual campaigns will be able to use Vote Builder to target their campaigning very precisely.
I’m not sure its just Republicans. Hillary’s issue about “electability” has racial undertones: “Look! White Male voters like me better than Obama!!!”
I say that its time for White Male voters (of whom I am one) to figure this thing out and grow up. Vote for the candidate of your choice, but if you identify with “White” Americans, please don’t do so because of a perception that Obama is “unelectable.”
Bob in HI
That is pretty much it in a nutshell…In Darfur and Haiti, they would say, “Oh really..you can buy rice??”..
I agree with you and Digby, Jane. People need to remember that it’s still April — and although I think Barack clearly will be the nominee & Hillary has crossed the line a couple of times in her campaign tactics/statements, in the long run Obama will be glad that he had some practice dealing with what the GOP is going to throw at him over the summer.
Jane -
found myself rolling around in the Crashing The Gates Book Salon thread -
it wasn’t that long ago, but Catalist, Open Left, Blue America, 50 State Projects were aspirations – so much of what we talked about is up and functioning quite nicely
You of all people have taught me we have miles to go before we sleep but I truly hope you have moments to appreciate all that has been accomplished – my, my, my
demi@33:
That is hilarious. I have a hunch we’ll be hearing a lot more whining as all the R’s efforts to rob & pillage this country starts affecting them personally on a regular basis. Of course, they will claim it’s all the Dem’s fault but I don’t think as many people will buy that anymore.
I associate myself with your comment…;>
Thanks I will make time for that interview… Hagee should provide plenty of counter ammunition against McSame and be a great example for our black brothers of just how bigoted the rethuglians truly are. Oh and for me also… I try and accept people for who they are and whats in the heart an not on color or religion… something I had to learn on my own… but I am glad I have learned it as other wise I would have missed making some great friends over the years…
I think we need a new slogan:
It’s all the Republicans’ fault.
Over a month ago I read the results of a survey of who respondents had seen in the news:
Obama: 70+%
Hillary: 15%
McCain: 3%
How is this bad?
If there was a consistent message or theme of any bad news for either of the Democrats, then you could say that things were not well.
What is the advantage of McCain to have two targets?
None! But why?
Assume that right now both Hillary and Obama have more ardent supporters than McCain (maybe twice as many each). If McCain attacks Obama, he pisses off Obama voters. If he attacks Hillary, he pisses off Hillary supporters. (Same applies to any Republican or pundit attack!) The end result is that McCain, the republicans and the pundits take a hit, a big hit. As soon as you hear someone arguing against your choice, you start to suspect their motives and reasoning. Right now all the attacks are directed at Democrats, and at least 50% of the attacks will be objectionable.
The prolonged primary just creates more opportunity for us non-pundits to experience the media and the republican machine.
Now about McCain and his gaffes. By the time we turn our attention on McCain he will have a long and indisputable history of these gaffes. He will not be able to say he misspoke. Right now he has no idea what will be a big issue, and when he finally finds out, he can’t go back and amend his comments.
If you are an Obama fan, please realize that he needs above all else name recognition. Even the silly use of his middle name is a positive. How many times can this bs be repeated before it becomes a joke?
Above all remember that most of these attacks will only stick with the most brain dead republicans.
As an example, just notice how MSNBC’s Pat B has been exposed as a true racist over the last six weeks. On one show he ‘accused’ a fellow guest of being a democrat, I guess because she was black. She was truly offended.
Lotsa nutshells.
He had no idea how I (and others) would hear that.
Walmart?
The ability to actually buy food?
No concept of a global consciousness?
:(
Rather than saying ” Democratic leaders resigned themselves yesterday to a prolonged and potentially damaging battle,” someone needs to be writing that “an extended Democratic primary is an unmitigated disaster for the Republicans.”
I wanted to say Thank You, Jane for everything you do.
This is our Year, our Time, Our Country.
I can’t wait until somebody asks McSame…”People think you are a warmongerer, how do you feel about that?” Kerpow!!
Thanks for the head’s up on Bill Moyers guest Friday evening. Moyers brings out the best in all of us, including the Reverend, me thinks. ;~)
I think that the Thuglicans and the press are furious that they don’t know which candidate to target.
Oh but pssssst. . . you can still attend a fundraiser in Kent tommorrow hosted by Herr Doktor Strangelove Kissinger, *and* be photographed with the preznit for a “modest fee of $10,000. Or according to Democracy for America, you can can join “DFA’s chair Jim Dean will join our friends at Connecticut Citizen Action and the CT Democratic Party across the street. They’re making sure the President’s visit gets the kind of critical media attention he deserves.”
Here’s Maura Kearney’s comments in the Courant.
Wonder if Ol’Gurney Joe will be there.
They have no idea that people in the world eat mud when they are starving.
If this is what we have to look forward to from the press, then we’d better have an overabundance of Dem voters:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com…..id=topnews
I daresay Ms. Eilperin’s fluffing skills seem to have been enhanced by a plateful of ribs.
Raven -
gonna keep my theories as to why that is to myself – but reading the article explained the unprecedented organization, logistics, and enthusiasm I saw in my once scarlet red little town – and why I now have over 240 volunteers chomping at the bit to go to work for BO/DNC – even at 3 am !:)
Jane- Anyone that does the numbers realizes that even now it’s pretty much a quixotic quest for Ms. Clinton. She would need to win 66% of the remaining undeclared delegates (both elected and Superdelegates that are non-committed) to win the nomination. That will only get worse after the next two Primaries, as any numbers she earns below that figure (66%) increases her subsequent requirements with fewer votes available.
Given that, I think that Senator Obama should start running against McCain and largely ignoring Hillary. He should clear up a few loose ends, for example, pointing out that it was State Representative Alice Palmer (ironically now a Clinton delegate) who was actually the one who brought him over to the meeting with her supporters at the Ayers residence. Obama didn’t arrange that meeting, Palmer did.
But the next few weeks need to transition over to a Campaign about the differences between the platform he will have, and that of McCain. He needs to show that McCains recent campaign swing is so full of insincerity (showing his votes on various issues) that it’s absurd.
I note tyhat McCain is running around to States where the Republican image is badly tainted. Obama needs to go on a “Truth Tour”…dogging McCain whever he goes and correcting the record at each stop. He needs to show that the Presidential campaign has started.
While you are at the Stone read Matt Taibi’s
Jesus Made Me Puke
yes and McCain has all the strength and depth of a Kraft Foods Marshmallow.
By the way, I’ve talked with several relatives in Pennsylvania about the campaign there. All were Clinton supporters and voted for her, even the Republican leaning independent who can’t stand her but thinks she’s the best choice out of the available options.
Anyway, the point is that most of these people didn’t have a very high opinion of Obama going into the primary. At the end, even though they still voted for Clinton, they all had a much higher opinion of Obama than they did before the PA campaigning got underway – and that’s with all the Rev. Wright / Bill Ayers / Flag Pin garbage thrown in.
I think that speaks volumes for both the value of the extended primary season and Obama’s chances in the fall.
.
Yep. It’s that Oh look, Barb, Walmart has these new fangled bar coder reader thingies elitist blinders…
Let’s hope that after the general, they will wake up and SEE!
I think the candidates are getting better as well. I was waiting for one of them to say “scrap No Child Left Behind”. Clinton said it, now I am waiting for Obama to say it. Which candidate will finally talk of scrapping and not “revising” the Dept of Heimat Security, because right now both websites talk of “revision” and as someone on a thread once said, the only revision is to get rid of it since DHS is a leaky ship of rats
Here’s what I said in two comments (and they’re not the oldest ones I’ve written on this topic) I posted over at Talkleft, on the point of Digby’s post:
The earlier:
Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:52:53 AM EST
While that may sound nuts to the average intelligent person reading this blog, we need to look at it from a slightly different angle.
During the primary season, the media has to cover the primary races.
Doing coverage imposes three obligations/costs on the media:
1. the candidates say what the candidates want to say and the media reports it. The reporting is usually on the horserace aspects.
2. the media cannot be other than pretty evenhanded – they cannot be seen as favoring one over the other too much. (I know, fans of one candidate or the other will say “but they beat on my guy” or “they didn’t beat on the other”, but stepping back, the real dirt and negative propaganda out of the media does not start until later. The way it is.
3. the media does not control the narrative while there is an undecided nomination race.
The end result is that the Democratic (and Republican) primary contenders get a lot of free media time, coverage and attention without too much editorializing.
Once a presumptive nominee is chosen, the control of the narrative passes:
1. the media has to be “evenhanded” as among the presumptive nominees, but they lean and we all know they lean Right.
2. the media controls the narrative – be it “Reagan old” or “Reagan happy”, “Bush II resolute” or “Bush II stupidly intransigent”, they get to choose their adjectives. If it favors one candidate too much, the other candidate will complain and, if it’s a Democrat complaining, they’ll be dismissed as whining. If it’s a Republican complaining, it will be “the liberal media trying to do them in”.
3. the candidates no longer get the benefit of free media without too much editorializing.
Moreover, once the primary/nomination races are over, there is a big dead zone (usually about 6 months from Super Tuesday in the beginning of Feb. through the conventions in August/Sept.) during which the candidates have to suck up to the media to be on the news. The media then gets to decide whether and how to cover them. With an on-going undecided nomination race, the media does not have that power.
So, it favors the media to have the races whittled down to one Dem and one Rep as early as possible. Then, the media gets to define the candidates the way the media (or, more precisely, their ownership) wants.
OK?
and then, a couple days earlier …
Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 12:01:37 PM EST
I’ve been saying that literally (#11)
since before Edwards had to suspend his campaign.
I’ve written the same points, back in January, IIRC, but I’d already gone through over 350 comments (who knew I was so prolix?) to dig these two out, and have better ways to spend my time. I suspect, though, that I’ve been merely stating the obvious – obvious, at least, to the media people.
Just to clarify a little further, some of the people I discussed in the above post were considering McCain as their second choice if Clinton didn’t get the nomination.
I think all of them would be willing to support Obama now, too.
.
For folks just getting here, Nahant provided this link:
http://pol.moveon.org/mccain_p…..Z&t=3
Sign it. Tell McCain how Outraged we are.
Obama is my Senator.
*I* didn’t have that high an opinion of him going into the primary season.
That has changed.
The more I see of how he handles controversy and ‘difficult’ questions, the more I am convinced he is the strongest candidate.
It’s the reverse-Giulani factor
I’m for whichever Dem candidate makes it, because I hate the Pukes…but I think that HRC knows that she has very, very little chance of winning…unless something “unforeseen” happens or is revealed…I dunno…but I think that staying in to the bitter end (no pun intended) is the right thing to do…She will then be seen as a tenacious pitbull and will make a good VP choice…or..if something happens that we don’t know yet, she will be seen as being scrappy enough to overcome the Pukes and win bigtime. The Pukes are trying to paint Obama as “weak”…How stupid is that? I, personally, hope for a dream ticket and I hope the Dems kick those Neocons out of the park, once and for all.
bom dia, pups
o/t but somewhat related (politics)
still on his ‘forgotten american tour’, McCain Says He Would Have Responded Differently to Hurricane Katrina
my favorite part: Before his news conference, Mr. McCain spent about a half hour on a walking tour of rubble and still-dilapidated houses in the Ninth Ward, all recorded by two packed, slow-moving flatbed trucks of reporters and camera crews who rumbled just ahead of the candidate and his wife, Cindy.
where is my bucket?
looks like the (D)’s could still snatch defeat from the jaws of victory – especially if their candidate is flatfooted by a new war of aggression against Iran, a war they are doing nothing seriously to avert.
Harboring a war criminal via My Left Nutmeg.
scribe @ 61
You *really* think it should go all the way to the convention?
I don’t know. I lean towards seeing this end with the end of the primary season, in mid-June.
I’ve already elaborated on why I think it would be preferable for us to unite behind a single candidate one the primaries are over and focus on McCain.
If you honestly think it would be better to go all the way to the convention instead, could you elaborate on reasoning a little more. I’m not saying you’re wrong, you might very well be right. I’d just like to see what benefits there might be that I, and others here, might not have considered.
.
demi let try and make sure it is posted in every thread today so as to get as many as possible to sign the petition!! And thanks for the cudo!!
He is looking better while……
The thing about him that is most damning is that he didn’t respond to Katrina at all…or did I miss it?
Where was his outrage during the 5 days those people were pleading for help? I don’t remember a peep out of him.
Where has he been since then…while the people have been pleading for help?
I haven’t heard a peep out of him.
Grrr…
I just hope we don’t have a Bobby Kennedy moment!! that would give McSame a boost!
Or he could ask his new BFF Short Ride to hold the hearings that were once promised on Katrina…
Heh. ‘Reverse-Giuliani’ factor. I like that.
.
So, if your father is from another country, but you are born here…you aren’t American?
Is that what these boneheads have come to believe?
They forking deserve McCain.
Let’s do.
Grrrrrrrr. Tenacious bull dog pups!
(I keep hyping the Moyers/Wright thing too.)
Grrrrrrr. :)
LS:
Perhaps.
But we don’t.
.
God forbid, but anything is possible. I don’t trust any of these people…
Just out of curiousity I wonder if anyone would pay $10.000 to be photographed with McCain and his little dog, Holy Joe Lieberman. I think that would be a “man sandwich” that couldn’t be auctioned off on e-bay.
GOOD!!
Well, I think you are right bob. But if the worst thing that happens is a national narrative is taken away from the Pundits and “expected” from the actual Political Leaders (where it will immediately be parsed and re-hashed for discourse and digestion on the internet), then let ‘er buck.
When Uncle Walter Cronkite was responsible for the narrative, there was a better ethic — or at least a better perception of one. Would you place the same trust today in Tweety that my parents placed in Walter? Nope. I’d be hesitant to even make that expectation of KO, Murrowesque as he may be.
No, if our national narrative starts with our leaders and then they are immediately fact checked by the toobz, then things like, “They are buying yellow cake uranium…from Niger!” just can’t happen, or at least shouldn’t be able to happen with such impunity. That’s my dream, anywaze.
Yes, I do.
Because it will (1) suck all the air out of McSame’s attempts to gain some sort of momentum when the political press is all going on about “a contested convention” and how novel it is.
You all have to remember, a contested convention is something anyone under the age of 50 has not seen. Period. 1968 (which I remember) was the last time there was any suspense about how a convention would come out (if you don’t count McGovern’s bad vetting job on Tom Eagleton in 1972, and subsequent replacement with Muskie).
and (2) it will prevent the media from reverting to slamming and smearing the Democratic nominee and building their propaganda structure while no one is looking (during the summer). They will have to (or should be made to) cover the Dems evenhandedly. Which, FWIW, is why getting Shuster suspended a while back was such a good move – it kept the press honest (for a while). They have to be bitch-slapped every now and then to keep them in line, and its been too long since the last one.
What we need to remember is that, “going Lincoln-Douglas” also means both the candidates and their supporters remember that the main enemy is not the other Democrat, but the Republican. It does not mean going all hammer and tongs on the other Dem. Both candidates can score a lot of points in their debates if they aim their fire at McSame, and limit their attacks on the other Dem to “I have ultimate respect for my adversary, but I can fix the problems the Republicans caused better than can my adversary.”
isn’t one spoof description of Democracy that…
“In a Democracy the people get the government they deserve”?
well, in that sense alone, the USA sure is a well functioning democracy.
and well, what has the aggregate population done recently to deserve decent government?
hence me looking for my bucket
They are stirring the “Niger” type of stuff today…that North Korea built a nuke plant in Syria…
I hope Congress wises up.
The Neocons are really trigger happy right about now. They want an excuse to rearrange our history again…
i think the argument that continuing the primary forces the media to try to be even handed is actually pretty convincing. broder is full of it, concern-troll bar none, but he has to pretend to care about benefit of dem party. Once obama is the nomineed, broder will turn into novacula in a second…
Jane,
I agree. The talking heads are swallowing the assumption that the extended primary is helping McBush cause it creates an interesting story line. It’s likely bullshit.
yup — they gotta have a new war or they’re in deep shit.
I’m surprised though, expecting them to wait another couple months.
if we attach iran now, then by nov, it’ll be clear that the occupation there is as much a disaster as the occupation in iraq. Seems like they need to target August/Sep and hope that the rah-rah team spirit of militarism and nice shiny explosions on tv makes the vote close enough to steal in nov …
OT–In the comments yesterday at ThinkProgress on the post of the exchange between Helen Thomas and Pig Missile Perino, someone put up the email address for Thomas, suggesting we thank her for having the courage to call out Bush’s admission of condoning torture. A friend and I have both gotten replies back from her and it looks like she replied to everyone individually. Helen Thomas is a true national treasure.
neither of my parents were citizens when i was born, so….
I think they want an excuse to re-arrange our weapons stockpiles. They really haven’t had a chance to deplete the big bombs since the “Shock and Awe” days and I think the Military Industrial Puppet Masters are getting itchy to relieve a little inventory before the doves take over. Maybe they’ll luck out and Calamity Clinton will get in there and start dropping bombs. Poor little Military Industrial Complexers.
The next spaceship to Mars will be leaving soon please be on it….:)
Maybe they’ll luck out and Calamity Clinton will get in there and start dropping bombs.
That’s what I’m talkin bout.
We can’t occupy anybody other than Iraq — but they will possibly bomb them. I think Israel will possibly bomb Syria…especially, since they already did and Syria did nothing in response…yet.
Then, on the other hand, everything might just be distraction and saber rattling….I hope that is the real case.
*g*
From VoteVets
We need you to write to your Senators telling them that the McCain bill is unacceptable.
http://salsa.wiredforchange.co…..n_KEY=2146
The Post 9/11 Veterans Educational Assistance Act (S.22), the Webb-Hagel bill that we support, now has 57 supporters in the Senate, from both sides of the aisle. With three more supporters, this bill would be filibuster-proof, and guaranteed to get to the President’s desk. Senator McCain’s bill could split the Senate, undermining the common-sense legislation that Senators Webb and Hagel offered. In doing so, it also undermines America’s veterans.
Here’s how.
1) The McCain-Graham-Burr legislation creates a flat education benefit, not taking into account the cost of state colleges where veterans live. This would mean veterans in states where the cost of education is higher than the benefit would have go to into debt to get an education, or uproot themselves and their families to move to a place where the benefit would cover college. In many cases, the McCain bill won’t even cover half the cost of college. The Webb-Hagel Bill determines the education benefit based on the highest state college tuition in a veterans’ home state, allowing veterans to come home and attend college, without upheaval in their lives.
2) The McCain-Graham-Burr legislation creates second-class veterans, by offering those who serve in the military for 12 years the chance to transfer their education benefits to their children. This says to a veteran who serves for two years and loses both of his legs in combat that his service isn’t as valuable as someone who has served for longer.
3) The McCain-Graham-Burr legislation leaves the National Guard and Reserve out in the cold. In the current conflicts, the National Guard and Reserve have served faithfully alongside their active duty compatriots, and deserve equal benefits. Yet, the McCain bill does nothing to reward our Guard and Reservists for their cumulative service. Under the McCain bill, over 160,000 members of the Guard and Reserves who have done more than one tour in Iraq or Afghanistan would get no credit towards an education for their additional sacrifice.
Write to your Senators telling them that the McCain GI Bill is unacceptable here: http://salsa.wiredforchange.co…..n_KEY=2146
A fair education benefit is a sacred promise made to America’s military after World War II. That promise has been allowed to become outdated and tarnished. Only the Webb-Hagel bill will restore its luster. And, for that reason, it is the only acceptable bill to America’s veterans. Any Senator who joins Senator McCain on his bill does not support our veterans, and it is important that you let your Senator know that, right away.
Thank you for your support.
Thanks for the response, Scribe.
Those are interesting points to consider. I’m not sure I agree, but it does give me some hope that, even if Clinton attempts to derail the process, the overall outcome could be beneficial.
I’ll have to give it some more thought.
.
There are some who may wish to “Normalize” the use of nukes…That could happen if we were to build some very small yield weapons and use them a few times in “BUNKER BUSTER” ACTIVITIES.
Why would they do this? Well our advantage is in the nuclear arsenal- but that doesn’t provide much leverage unless you can USE em.
they did have green cards…
it’s sad, but I’d expect the country to ‘rally’ around our ‘brave men and women in uniform’ as soon as the bombs start dropping. It’s a great tv show, plays right into the our-team/their-team military-action-as-sports mentality, and is really convincing. Regardless though, the reality will show thru within a couple months. So, I don’t see how it helps them to do anything now. I’m still expecting Aug/Sep. Maybe they’re just laying the ground work now.
another bait-and-switch, huh? jeez …
you got it though i’m pretty sure both my critters will not support mccain’s bill. writing them now.
And you don’t support the troops if you don’t go along.
Thanks for letting us know about this one, Raven. That’s a really ratty thing for McCain to do when they are only 3 votes short. Anyone who thinks he would be any improvement over Bush is completely deranged. I’m guessing my Senators will cancel each other out on this (Bill Nelson and Martinez), but at they’ll hear from me yet again.
done
“The thing about him that is most damning is that he didn’t respond to Katrina at all…or did I miss it?”
You missed the big publicity stunt/photo opp where they imported big electricity generators so the Preznit could have good lighting for his pretty speech in which he promised the moon and the stars. Of course, afterwards, they took the generators with them, even though the city needed them badly.
Bob in HI
I agree, Jane. I wrote this not too long ago with some of these points in mind. Plus, as you say, there have been lots more Democratic voters identified. What’s more, thanks to the fact that people voting in late primaries are helping to decide how things go, they can feel more involved in the process.
There’s every reason to believe that other candidates, like Blue America’s Sam Bennett, are going to benefit from this, as well.
We really don’t want the fairness doctrine back as it solved a problem that no longer exists. Back in th 1930’s when the rule was adopted, many communities across the country had access to only one radio station. The fairness doctrine prevented any single entity (political party, pro/con some local issue) from dominating that scarce resource.
In the current era, there is a profusion of options in the media landscape. The problem of our day, as you rightly observe, is concentration in media ownership. It does not matter that there are many media options if all options are rendered equivalent by concentrated ownership.
Until the advent of blogging on the internet it was possible for each of us (progressive/liberal) to conclude (wrongly) that we were all alone with our “crazy” political views. The internet has put the lie to that misapprehension. By extension, the MSM have been found to be delivering not what the people demand but rather what their corporate overlords demand.
We must be clear, WE DO NOT WANT TO RETURN TO THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE. Our enemies in the battle to deconstruct modern media consolidation will again and again try to raise that red herring and conclude from it that we on the left are wanting to stifle their voices.
We don’t want to shut them up.
What we want is for all to have a chance to speak and for all to be heard. That will truly be fair.
-briber
I didn’t miss that. But, I’ve never heard McCain speak out that the disaster…only now that he is running. Plus, his BFF Lieberliar has done zero.
LIEberman has been busy trying to bring the troops home … /s
I’m a Clinton supporter, but I’ll certainly vote for Obama in the GE if he’s nominated. However, I must take exception to the idea that he’s getting better at handling controversy. It really seems like he handles controversy best when he can totally control the situation. I can’t believe any Obama supporter came away from the last debate with renewed confidence in his ability to handle himself in tough situations. Yes, some of the questions were silly and/or unfair. But that’s going to happen. His lack of preparedness to deal with questions that anyone should have expected was not very impressive.
It’s comforting to go on about how awful the ABC guys were, but the fact is that this was the first debate since the Wright story broke. I really think Obama’s supporters were so starry eyed over his speech that they truly think the story has ceased to exist, simply because the Obama camp has declared it so. I thought the questions about the disparity between what he told Rolling Stone last year and what he said this March were fair ones, and I don’t recall seeing him address the issue before, particularly since he insulates himself from the press so much.
By the same token, his San Francisco remarks were also fair game. I know his supporters like to dismiss the whole thing as an irrelevant sideshow, but the fact is that he’s a Presidential candidate who was talking about what he thinks are the issues that matter to the voters, and what motivates them to vote the way they do. Of course there was the predictable outrage from his supporters over they way the remarks were portrayed (but really, what doesn’t get his supporters outraged?) but I fail to see how the entire topic is irrelevant. Face it, he has shown several times that he doesn’t do well when he has to react quickly.
Sure, but he didn’t fabricate crap about sniper fire. Hil did that do herself.
The “moderators” did a terrible job, asking totally unfair questions, nay, orders them to take apledge. WTF?
I don’t think Obama is perfect I just think he’s the best choice we’ve got.
Done and thanks Raven for bring this and other Veterans issues to our table here at the lake. We as a people owe so much to so few whom have sacrificed so much for all of us!
This article is to add to the Vets issues Raven et al raised up thread.
Why Would a Vet Vote for McCain?
And Hannity is still doing Ayres and Wright, lamenting Wright will be on Moyers tomorrow and angry that McSame has distanced himself, maybe, from the NC Wright piece. He is going to be talking this stuff til the end of time. As was posed on the previous thread, what pushback is there? It’s not a big leap to talk about McC and his opposition to MLK; now against the Ledbetter equality; etc etc. Do we want to play their game?
1,822 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Thank you, Citizen Hamsher, I been sayin the same thing but not nearly as eloquently er as intelligibly. I wonder, however, if there isn’t a point of exhaustion and diminishin’ returns based on the scorched earth, Kamikaze tactics of one of the candidates. Think for a moment of the increasin’ deflected anger, defensiveness and bunker mentality of the two camps as expressed on this blog in the last weeks…I wonder if there isn’t a point at which the committed “base” of each side is irredeemable if its candidate loses the nomination. Also, the candidate that is behind at this point must increasingly reach out to the opposite political party and their noise machine and fundin’ base in order to increase their own base of votes. I believe that given the tactics we’re seein’ now, we are rapidly approachin’ the point where the losin’ side will follow the losin’ candidate outta the dance. If for instance Obama is denied the nomination because of a super delegate coup and/or an overwhelmin’ and increasingly racist opposition movement fueled by the corporate media, I don’t see how a majority of his base will turn their energy to Mrs. McClinton in the general election and ,in fact, the Denver convention will make 1968 look like a middle school dance.
If on the other hand, McClinton continues her current tactics of reinforcin’ McCain’s image of strength and character at the expense of Obama and increasingly feeds the feelings of alienation of her base, I think she will lose control of them if she loses the nomination and won’t be able to mobilize her votes for Obama in the general.
Think about it, Sister Jane…convince me I’m wrong…PLEASE!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE ENEMY IS NOT STUPID THOUGH THEIR CANDIDATE MIGHT BE!!
Does every discussion of Obama have to include someone saying “Bosnia” or “sniper fire”?
And as I already said, there were several silly questions. I don’t recall anyone “ordering” them to take a pledge. If you recall, the question was prompted by Mario Cuomo’s very public pushing for a pledge. It’s not as though the moderators came up with it out of thin air.
To me, the silliest question was about Wright’s patriotism. As for the flag pin, it was a silly question, but it is something making the rounds online. That doesn’t mean they should have asked it, but Obama should have taken the opportunity to address the issue head-on, instead of being dishonest. And by the way, he brought the flag pin issue on himself when he insisted on making it some sort of principled stand. That’s fine if that’s the way you want to go, but if you’re going to make something about principle, you can’t complain when people ask you to defend those principles.
Thanks for the link dodido! Our veterans are near and dear to me! The rethuglians are full of platitudes but in fact could care less about them… just look at what has happened to veterans rights under their watch… a means test for medical benefits which is less than the poverty line and if you make more than that no benefits…
1,822 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND ON…
Citizen Raven”
Thanx for the heads up and the great work ya do for the “grunts”…I’m gunna fall out and get on the VoteVet list and follow their orders.
Has there been a “kiddo sighting” lately?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION THESE BASTARDS WON’T GIVE UP UNTIL WE KICK ‘EM INTO THE DUST BIN!!
Hey Norske, keep doing your part for uniting the party in November. Calling Hillary “McClinton” and saying Obama will lose by a superdelegate coup or racist opposition is just the kind of bridge building we need. Keep up the good work.
And by the way, I don’t know if all of this “I sez” and “increasin’” is supposed to be a common touch, or a really transparent effort at some kind of signature style, but it’s really annoying. Excuse me, annoyin’.
Negative contact with the Kiddo or Lahoma.
Back off
Does every discussion of Obama have to include someone saying “Bosnia” or “sniper fire”?
Tell you what pal. When she lies numerous times about being under fire it’s an insult to everyone who really has.
When someone who is so dying to be President of the United States tells a whopper, tells it again, knows it to be untrue, telling it again, gains absolutely nothing for telling it,
then supporters cries FOUL when she’s called on it,
I’m going to keep pointing out we don’t need someone to lie to lead. going to point out she did it to herself. We still have the right to expect good judgment and she’s not showing much right now.
PS to Raven’s point: It’s also an insult to those assigned to protect the First Lady of the US. Stop insulting my intelligence Hillary.
I can’t believe Hillary raised $10 million dollars overnight by regular average Americans. I don’t buy it for a second. I’d like to see the list of names who donated to see if any are in English. LOL
Um, Norske has been around here a lot longer than you, so be careful who you insult.
Plus we argue points not personality. If anyone wants to get personal they can go to lots of other places.
Keep passin’ the ammunition, Norske!
1,822 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen ChrisO:
You are exhibiting the very “bunker mentality” and hyper sensitivity to the truth that I referred to in my question addressed to Citizen Hamsher. I long ago stated that unless McClinton changes her tactics and made an effort to reach out to the progressive base of the party, I would not vote for her and I include myself in the Obama base that I mentioned in my hypothetical. Further, as to the “super delegate coup” or racist opposition that’s a tactical fact, Jack…McClinton has been courtin’ the super delegates for the last few months and has had her surrogates out for a long time whisperin’ that a Black candidate can’t win in this country. The tactics I described in my question to Hamsher are reality, McClinton is doin’ jest what I talked about. I ain’t about “bridge buildin” by pretendin’ that a spade is not a shovel.
Finally, the biggest threat McClinton poses to the future of this country is the very real threat that if she wins the nomination and by some miracle wins the Presidency, the new party leadership in the DNC and the netroots will be purged…and watch net neutrality go out the door with the telecoms and telecom immunity.
As for your ad hominem remarks about my “common touch”, all I got to say is if that’s all ya got, go back to the gym ‘cuz ya ain’t got the chops ta get in the ring with the grown ups.
KEEP THE FAITH AND WATCH OUT WHERE YA STEP…YOU’LL GET IT ON YER SHOES!!
ITA. When I heard this, I thought, there she goes again trying to usurp someone else’s strength (in this case grassroots style support for BO) as her own.
“I’ve got grassroots support, too!”
She has support, sure, and now the Sure Thing is now a come from behind underdog?
Yawn….
Good afternoon Firepups™!
Just a friendly reminder, personal attacks on other commenters will not be tolerated here at Firedoglake.
That is all.
Thanx Raven, dosido and Martha, but I think I got it covered. This old Norwegian hide has been flogged by experts…he didn’t lay a glove on me.
Our local paper had a Politico’s take on the Dem race; he was refuting the claim of damage in the race.
In part: Not persuaded the length means the Dems will fare worse….decades since an extended nomination fight…”I’ll wager that the longer the Obama-Clinton tussle lingers, the more likely it is that voters will tune in. Polls show Americans primed for a new president. My bet: They won’t mind a brawl. The decision matters.” Austin Amer. Statesman
The Tx turnout was huge, so he seems to think the interest is not being harmed.
ChrisO, I thought that you raised some very cogent points in your responses here.
There is also a fatigue that sets in when you
constantly hear negativity about a target. It blunts
the effect over time. The long primary hardens the
contestants and gets them ready for the real fight.
Attacks will be fresh and closer to the general
election, so the negativity fatigue will not have
time to set in.
I still think this is all planned by Obama and Clinton.
They have agreed to both be on the ticket this fall,
so they will have great momentum and be up for the
fight.
The one fly…is Bush. He (or Isreal) will bomb Iran at the
most convenient time (during the Democratic
National convention, when Barak gives his acceptance
speech). No one will care about the election or
who he will pick as VP (Clinton). We will be at war.
And everyone will flock to McCain the warrior.
4 more years.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi…..a_2108.jpg
Abe would have wanted it like that.
Brilliant post. If anyone ever puts together a book of ‘Best Blog Posts for the 2008 Elections’ this post should be included.
Per this:
Although it’s good that the MSM is engaged by YouTube, the pundits’ fixation on polls is myopic, and it’s blinding them to larger, more fundamental cultural, demographic, and economic shifts.