In Hilla, the largest town in the central Iraqi province of Babil, soldiers and residents say the violence was fiercest on March 25. And at least one American soldier said he was angry that the role of Iraqi troops was exaggerated after the battle. "A gunfight broke out and we were fighting [the Mahdi Army] for about four hours," the soldier told TIME. "The army article made it sound like we were just there supporting the Iraqi Army, but we did all the work. We just had four humvees out there with some Iraqi [troops]."
Another soldier at Forward Operating Base Kalsu in north Babil said he has little confidence in the battle abilities of the Iraqi forces. "Sometimes they start shooting because they heard or saw something, but then there's nothing there," he said.
How many billions have we spent on this training?
Training the Iraqi troops was David Petraeus' former job.
Now, however, 18 months after entering Iraq, I see tangible progress. Iraqi security elements are being rebuilt from the ground up.
- David Petraeus, Washington Post, September 26, 2004
Thank you well-time piece of pre-election psyops. How's that 4th star look on ya'?
So to sum up, 40 months later, surely What General Petraeus saw has become even more awesome?
Lack of professionalism is only one of the problems plaguing Iraq's floundering forces. More troublesome is their heavily sectarian composition. Throughout southern Iraq, members of the police and army are pulled largely from the Badr Brigade — a militia tied to a Shi'ite political party, the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, which is the chief rival of Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army. A number of MPs in Baghdad even suspect that Maliki's Basra assault was a poorly disguised government campaign to wipe out Sadr's base of popularity before local elections in October.
"Unpossible" says Fred Kagan.
Here's a suggestion. How about we keep treating them as infants so as to make them completely dependent on us, because they know we'll always be there to do the work for them in a pinch...or even just because they overslept?
Oh, good plan!
Some U.S. troop commanders also foresee an indefinite dependence.
Given the past track record, that shouldn't cost too much. A trillion here, a trillion there, pretty soon that's real Chinese money.
By the way, three more American kids down while we prevent Iraqi's from standing up.
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Maybe we should pay Fred Kagan, Rummy Bush etc withe all the “Returns on Success ” that we have made from the war. After all with oil at $118 a barrel Iraq should be better able to fund its own reconstruction and our invasion than it was when the Neocons first made that claim.
ZED!
If they’re white, they get hype.
If they’re brown, the MSM gets down. and dirty.
The army article made it sound like we were just there supporting the Iraqi Army, but we did all the work. We just had four humvees out there with some Iraqi [troops].”
Is he implying that the Maliki attack on al Sadr was mainly an American job. But how could that be it was Malki’s idea the Americans had no idea it was going on? How could we get that many troops into Southern Iraq quick enough to help Maliki when Southern Iraq was the British controlled area.
How far away a drive is our nearest base from southern Iraq? How many troops did we have rested and ready to attack al Sader’s army in Hilla in Central Iraq and Southern Iraq to help Maliki etc?
This sounds like a joint American/Iraqi confidence building exercise for Maliki’s troops that has gone wrong.
Maliki was clearly intended to get the credit. This was not an independent attack as Bush stated, unless Bush let American troops work under an attack planned and commanded by Iraqi’s? Without our Commanders on the ground knowing about it?
After all what seems more likely a joint American/Iraqi attack as a confidence building measure?
Or the idea that Maliki took his Iraqi army which we trained, equipped and I do believe still have military trainers embeded in their units. Without our knowing or even asking hey where are you going and just decided to do a big huge attack on al Sadr’s troops all over Iraq at the same time?
Is Maliki a logistics genius? a fool? and are we that unaware of whats going on under our noses that Maliki can do this attack across all of Iraq without General Petraeus knowing?
For Bad Lies like this alone General Petraeus should lose his command an incompetent liar is likely incompetent in other areas of his life like planning a war.
Or planning a joint American/Iraqi confidence building exercise. Or covering up HIS FAILURE BY BLAMING MALIKI!
Ah, yes. The occupied territory. The iraqi people just need another 100 years of Americanization!
another soldier at Forward Operating Base Kalsu in north Babil said he has little confidence in the battle abilities of the Iraqi forces. “Sometimes they start shooting because they heard or saw something, but then there’s nothing there,” he said.
How many billions have we spent on this training?
Training the Iraqi troops was David Petraeus’ former job.
So if the Iraq troops are not trained its Petraeus’s fault? So if Maliki thought his troops were ready to attack al Sadr he got that information from the General?
I take then that it was the General’s grand plan that was defeated by al Sadr not Maliki’s.
Al Sadr has one thing going for him that Malaki and all the other Iraqi poobahs lack. Al Sadr stayed in Iraq during the Saddam Hussain period. The others took a powder and went into exile in Iran, Syria, or the West. The Sunnis aren’t looking for the twelfth Imam, the Shia are. It would be about par for the course for this bunch of dipsticks to set up Al Sadr for martyrdom and sainthood with their dimwitted confidence exercises. PFFFFT!
If the General Petraeus planned this joint attack then it was he who was defeated by al Sadr, it was he who sent Maliki’s people to beg a cease fire from Iran!
Cause Maliki’s first response upon hearing he was loosing would be to ask for more American troops which he got.
Then if he was still loosing ask for British troops which he got.
Then if he was still loosing he would ask for airstrikes on populated areas which is horrible, but he still got what he asked for.
Now after still loosing he asked General Petraeus for more and or something else BUT THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE.
So Petraeus sent Maliki’s people assurances to Iran that we were honest about a ceasefire. He also sent bribes and or threats to Iran to motivate them.
Because Iran would not bother if Maliki asked without such assurances from the Americans because we Americans were the primary fighters and obviously in Command of the attack. Despite the press falling for the Maliki takes charge leads his men into battle White House spin.
After all you only make deals with the people who have the power to make deals and puppets like Maliki do not qualify.
Funny the first Bush bit of effective diplomacy with Iran and its a call to from General Petraeus to save his Reputation fron al Sadr.
Which begs the question why didn’t we win that attack we used air strikes!?! This does not look good.
Given current Iraqi oil production numbers for export just how high would the price of oil have to go this year to pay for what we are spending in Iraq this year?
about $742.00 a barrel - maybe a little less.
Really! We need to splice that number with a video of whatever Neocon first said that the Iraq war could pay for itself. Then we hope that Neocon is still employed in government and demand he resign.
Return on Imaginary Success is over! Now its time to start Takin Names, Kickin Ass and holding people ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR OWN FAILURES on this war!
I see in a JUST WORLD a lot of TV military experts being sent to do community service at Walter Reed!
1,821 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Hey early mornin’ Firepups, where is the Raven, anybody seen ‘im in the last day er so? I’m tryin’ ta find out what happened with oklahomakiddo and his wife Lahoma…I was out fer a couple a dayz dancin’ with the spine surgeon and missed the dust up. Does anyone know what happened? I’m broken hearted if one of the hosts of this site drove a citizen like Brother kiddo of the reservation (so ta speak…pun was intended in the best way possible).
Anyone know what happened?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION BUT WATCH OUT WHERE YA AIM!!!
Tell me but I think everybody here thought that the story about Maliki attacking al Sadr all on his own without General Petraeus knowing sounded well Fishy.
So how come the Main Stream Media reported the *cough* fact from the General and the White House but never reported the obvious doubts?
How come they never asked Bush or Petraeus one follow up question?
Something like Maliki did this without or knowing? Are all our troops blind? How do you not notice an army moving?
What happened those two are not likely to fight unless their principles are involved? Also there both Cool people I hope neither got banned or decided to leave.
some of today’s hearings (click on my name for details, links and the whole list):
10 am - Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine National Security Letters, focusing on the need for greater accountability and oversight.
10:15 am - House Judiciary
Oversight Hearing on the Federal Bureau of Investigation
2 pm - House Oversight and Government Reform
Electronic Communications Preservation Act
Subcommittee on Information Policy, Census, and National Archives
Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam is a book by Neil Sheehan, a former New York Times reporter who covered the Vietnam War. It is about U.S. Army retired Lieutenant Colonel John Paul Vann and the United States involvement in the Vietnam War.
Sheehan was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for Non-Fiction in 1989 and a National Book Award in 1988. A film adaptation, A Bright Shining Lie, was released by HBO in 1998 starring Bill Paxton and Amy Madigan.
[edit] Synopsis
John Paul Vann became an adviser to the Saigon regime in the early 1960s. He was an ardent critic of how the war was fought, both on the part of the Saigon regime, which he viewed as corrupt and incompetent, and, as time went by, increasingly, on the part of the U.S. military. In particular, he was critical of the U.S. military command, especially under William Westmoreland, and their inability to adapt to the fact that they were facing a popular guerrilla movement while backing a corrupt regime. He argued that many of the tactics employed (for example the strategic hamlet relocation) further alienated the population and thus were counterproductive to U.S. objectives. When being unable to influence the military command, he often used the Saigon press corps, Neil Sheehan among them, to leak his views.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bright_Shining_Lie
Col Vann did some trust building exercises in Vietnam Raven suggested the book to me he also tried to make sure the South Vietnamese got credit. Bush was praising Maliki’s attack I believe before it turned into a ceasefire I wonder if the White House and Petraeus are both reading the book thinking they have learned the lessons of Vietnam.?
This is not my field of expertise but are we repeating the mistakes of Vietnam, Korea? Or are we making new mistakes?
If we are repeating past mistakes then what is the lesson we haven’t learned that causes us like that Greek guy Sisyphus to keep rolling a boulder uphill knowing that its going to roll down OVER US AGAIN AND AGAIN.
I’m here, I answered yesterday. I thought they got insulted and bailed but someone else said they would come back after this agonizing fucking primary.
How bout them Iraqi ARVN’s!
Good Nite Pups!
1,821 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen ThingsComeUndone:
No, I was told that the conflict was between Jane Hamsher and Brother kiddo and kiddo left vowin not ta come back. Lahoma checked in a couple a times but has not been heard from lately either. Now I can’t scare the Raven up anyplace…bad stuff, I wanna know what happened and see if we can’t get a family intervention goin’ here ta bring kiddo back.
It’s all really disappointing and out of character for kiddo…
KEEP THE FAITH AND KEEP THIS FAMILY TOGETHER!!
yo, standin tall
Actually I was surprised you didn’t chine in when I was dukin it out with sadlyes about that goddamn Mc Cain Manchurian Candidate bullshit. You were on that thread but seemed oblivious.
Life Liberty and Happiness, here in America is a function of the price of oil. The “Iraq Oil Plot’s” fabricators are concerned more with the perpetuation of the current energy delivery system, oil than with the our republic’s well-being. Al-Sadr is an impediment to the prize.
As the price of oil rises the world is squeezed by the dependencies instilled in Americans, by corporate design. Instead of waging war for oil Americans must demand a war on energy, to reduce the per capita energy costs in America, which is in the interests of the nation and every American. It is not in the interests of corporate oil whose myopic self interest is protected at great expense, predicated on access to the large Jurassic oil slick beneath the vast desert of Al-Anbar. Oil a speculators market, is not a free market.
On the other hand utilization of John Kanzius’s accidental discovery using radio frequency waves to liberate hydrogen from salt water, a godsend to America is stifled. The application of reason, the harvesting of solar energy to utilize the “Kanzius Effect” via radio frequency waves liberating hydrogen burning it to heat water to run steam driven electrical generators could provide America with an inexhaustible renewable clean energy source, utilizing the two most abundant elements on the plant: Sunlight and salt water. Once the capital investments are paid for, the energy is free! How much money has been spent on war and death?
America’s invasion of Iraq at the behest of the neo con fascist is a corporate attempt to continue at all costs oil’s control of one form of stored potential energy. Rather than a war for oil a war on energy would yield considerable benefits to America and the world. We did get to the moon in ten years. We did defeat the Nazis in four years. We did develop the A bomb in a short period of time. Problem is the corp aristocrats who control the political process as well as the energy delivery system! Our immoral illegitimate invasion of Iraq predicated on falsehoods undermines any moral certainty. “Life liberty and happiness vs energy costs. ” Exposing some warts while connecting the dots.
1,821 dayz and the killin’ goez on and on and…
Citizen Raven:
Yo Brother Raven…was the dust-up over Obama vrs McClinton and racism and sexism? I wanna know because the shit is REALLY flyin’ and I’m sick and tired a the whinin’ and double standards…I’m so pissed off I wanna kick Mrs. McClinton the fuck outta my party and give her supporters a chance ta repent and sign a loyalty oath or hit the road with ‘er.
Disappointing …really heartbreakin’ is what it is!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION THIS IS NOT A DRILL!!
Good morning, pups. MoDo’s all alone today. Her offering is titled “Wilting Over Waffles,” and she says now that Hillary has won Pennsylvania, it will take a village to help Obama escape from the suffocating embrace of his rival.
http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
The coffee, tea and hot chocolate are ready, and I’ve got Thomas’ English muffins all hot out of the toaster. I’m not particularly looking forward to the forced march on to Indiana and North Carolina, but I guess we’ve got no choice but to trudge on…
Raven — I scrammed early last night. What was the Manchurian Candidate stuff about?
I WAS oblivious…sorry, I been duckin’ sniper fire from my L4-5 lumbar spine and dancin’ with the spine Doc. I appologize but I’m sure ya didn’t need me ta hold up yer end. Won’t happen again, Bro.
Nah, Dakine jumped in and so did Redd. sadly was putting up shit from Sampley’s site and I just can’t hack it. Ever tell you I fractured T-6 in a wreck in Atlanta in 75? Laid up in Grady Hospital for 2 months while they welded harrington rods on me. Watched the war end in the hospital in a demerol haze with a bro from the pukin buzzard next to me. After I got better the orderlies would wheel us over to the windows for a little toke!
link.
This was yesterday afternoon. This website has all this bullshit about Mc Cain being a traitor. They are part of the same Swiftboat shitheads that went after Kerry. I have gotten into it with people here several times and always get accused of being a Mc Cain supporter. I will raise up every time this kind of crap gets posted. There is plenty of real stuff to nail him, this is not it.
On Morning Joe, Tucker says Michele Obama is bitter and according to Joe, people he talks to out there somewhere think she comes off as angry. Andrea Mitchell quietly doesn’t seem to agree. Mika is not there to tut-tut Joe.
I hate corp media.
Oh. Thanks. That answers the question. I had completely missed that thread for some reason… probably working.
Must be something about the time of year. I am pretty much laid up after I exacerbated my squished 5. The label on the drugs say drinking while taking the drugs will “intensify the effect” so I have been swilling wine with the drugs.
If it wasn’t for real drugs I would really be in pain.
1,821 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen selise:
Oh my…I haven’t even got through the entire conversation-post and I’m heartbroken. Citizens Hamsher and Pachacutec came off like condescendin’ leaders of the “Kool Kidz” clique…what the fuck is up
I’m glad you sensed that too. I did, however, think that Kiddo was spoiling for a scrap, which seemed very unlike him.
Might want to check out this analysis from Al Giordano.
http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1105
Al’s been remarkably accurate this season and in 2004. He had Clinton winning by 4% yesterday, so 5% off is pretty bad by his standards. But before voting started yesterday, he said the key will be comparing specific demographics between PA and OH.
When he did that he found that Clinton lost ground in virtually every category, including many that were considered her “base.” With registered Democrats, it was a 46% shift in Obama’s favor between OH and PA. Among white registered Dems, she lost 26% from OH numbers.
It looks like the differences in the demographic make-up between the two states was enough to give Hillary a 9% win still, but hopefully the superdelegates are payin attention to the internals.
norske - i’ve written my opinion previously in the comments (i’m sorry, i can’t find the link). if you want to email me, i’ll be happy to repeat myself off thread.
I had a squabble with a dude last week, I said something stupid. Yesterday I emailed him and apologized. It ain’t that hard.
OT, people. Scott Horton was in Huntsville last night to speak on the media and there was nearly a fistfight in the parking lot. I’m waiting on the details. What little I got was in the comments here. Seems that reporter Eddy Curran was there. Also there were Gov. Don Siegelmann, Diedre Brown, Alex Latifi, Nancy Worley and John Schmidt (Sue Schmidt’s husband). These are all people (with the exception of Curran) that the Justice Department, in the persons of Alice Martin, Leura Canary and others, has been messing with. Stay tuned.
ya know,this is a FORUM,where people get information,share information,and “discuss opinions,Tou would like tochange this modus operandi? seems so
I told you yesterday, do what you want and I’m goddamn sure I’m going to do what I want to. And I wasn’t talking to you anyway.
Scrubbing toilets, urinals and bed pans with a toothbrush is a start for these shills. Sold their integrity for a little fame and lucre.
not very manerly for a southern gentleman,you obviously have issues,and im for the greater “good”,not your personal issues,take care dear
I’m from chicago
Oh stop…you don’t have the chops ta take on the Raven
And they’re off!
Coming around the outside…OK Guv and Superdelegate Brad Henry endorses Obama…and the rest of the field bunched up close behind ready to make a break for it.
http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=1107
Obama might make up the the PA delegate difference before NC with superdelegates.
the greater good? fooled me.
seems he has taken on me,but let him rail on,im done with it
how so?
apparently attempting to incite a flame war? please drop it.
Selise, can we expect a vote today on the fair pay issue?
“Unpossible”? Wow. The neocons have been licking the jackboots of George Bush way too much! They’re now making up words to make themselves look like they know something we don’t. Bunch of morons.
I really don’t want to be rude, but for anyone who has been in the military, opinionated comments about military service from someone who hasn’t ever done it, is similar to what mothers must experience when they hear males holding forth knowingly about childbirth. I think we all oppose McCain, but I too start seeing swift boaters when I see attacks on his military or POW record. I think it probably turns off a large numer of voters, also.
i think you have your facts wrong,i read counterpunch,who had an article about McCain,that i asked if anybody here had read,which apparently pissed off Raven,who attacked me…not the article,so if i cant persue articles on our Republican opponent here,that is chilling indeed
By the way, the Super Delegates need to get off their asses, pull their fingers out of their you-know-whatsies and make a decision soon on who they want, because the Democratic Party is being destroyed at the moment. Allowing McCrazy all this positive face time is not good for our party or for our country right now. He’s a madman running for Bush’s 3rd term for crying out loud. We need to be spending our energies going after him. The End.
well,my thesis,is than McCain is touted as a WAR HERO,when in fact,he was in combat a mere 20 hrs,and was in a plane,above the fray when he was shot down,i challengehis “hero” status,that is all
Yes, thank you for that. As Raven has pointed out, quite rightly, there are PLENTY of issues to go after Mr. McCain about. We do not have to sink to the level of the swiftboaters. I find this tactic utterly revolting.
Yes. Please.
IIRC the ‘rules’ here are that personal squabbles are best taken out of the building.
That tends to work well if both parties actually want to reach a conclusion.
we will be subjected to ENDLESS hrsof the videos of him coming back from Hanoi,he is painted as a hero,and i dont think he is,he voted for torture…and that is the long and short of it
In sadly’s defense I used his or her name in an exchange and should not have done that. If someone is guilty of igniting a flame war it is me.
272 days to go. And if the goddamn circular firing squad doesn’t stop we’ll probably have Bush’s third term in the person of McCain. Way to go Democrats — let’s work REALLY hard to drive up everyone’s negatives. [spit]
I’m not going to say more, but we’ve got Air Force Bases and parks named after people killed in their first five minutes of combat. Twenty hours of concentrated combat is something most of us are not qualified to comment on, followed by 51/2 years of imprisonment by the most hostile of captors. To use my earlier analogy, I think I would stir up some outrage if I mouthed about women who couldn’t take a couple of hours of child birth without whining (In no way my true view).
I don’t mean to be flip, or to flame you, but who cares? We will never be able to dent/kill the “war hero” meme without destroying ourselves and our candidate. Too many Americans would never forgive us for that–and we need their votes. We should spend our time and energy targeting the issues we can control and highlight: his stance on the economy (OMG), the war, his lobbyist buddies, etc.
well said.
i have nothing against you,that man reminds me so much of our current pResident,we just cant let him gain hero status,he struts around just like Chimpie on the Carrier deck….
This has nothing to do with the Manchurian Candidate stuff that Christy and I tried to explain.
that is a problem,like the cannonizing Ronnie Raygun,lets elevate,real heros…
fair enough. i take back my earlier comment.
raven - you are a gem. intellectual honesty and heart of gold.
and a big mouth
sorry i missed your question.
i don’t know. i’ll look though… but first i have to get some coffee.
he is a very CARELESS man,and is lucky to be alive…we have had a WRECKLESS jerk in power for 7+years,words and symbols are powerful,the truth is too if it evr gets out,with Chimp and his Grandpa,the truth was revealed after the selection,…and look where we are now…in dire straitts
well, there’s that too. *g* doesn’t bother me though - i’d rather know where you are coming from than have to try to guess.
Again, this has nothing to do with what we were objecting to, It’s the charges about him being a traitor as a POW that are beyond the pale and will KILL the opposition if WE try to pull it.
so you think we should let this hero baloney stick?
the media just eats it up
anyway,missed working yesterday,i must roll,we can plan strategy later bbl
That’s right Marion. Spit. (LOL!)
I love the circling firing squad image. That’s exactly what is going on right now.
Hillary is trying to be a “war hero” at the moment too. It’s not very becoming at all.
This is my last on this matter, but YES. The term “hero” is a relative term, but ask you to believe that most voters not only have no problem with John McCain’s performance during his military career, but actually admire it. I do, and don’t know if I could have done as well. To demean it makes one appear as unprincipled as the swift boat group. Principle aside, it is a losing political tactic.
There are some other reasons to oppose McCain, as the post upstairs notes.
McCain is no more or less a hero than the million or so folks that got sent over to Iraq. They also are facing death and injury. The point is that the Civilian and Military leaders should NOT compel our men and women to be placed in harms way on fools errands, into wars based on lies about the people we are going to fight, to bolster their own “tough guy” standings before the electorate, and with inadequate strategy or equipment.
The war in Iraq nearly ran the board with errors from A to Z. John McCain should get no Brownie points from his military service in this regard…his record in supporting an idiotic war in Iraq is sufficient to disqualify his judgement as a LEADER of the military and of our country.
Could we just start the impeachment proceedings soon?
ITMFA