Login HereOK, OK, you've made your point. We get it. You're super powerful and important. We all see that now. And let me just add, personally, that we're all tremendously impressed and awed by your superness. Promise.
Now.
Will you please listen to our party chairman, Howard Dean, and tell us who the hell you're voting for?
We just went through another grueling primary in which tens of millions of dollars are spent, both sides beat the crap out of each other substantively debating their many policy differences over trivial personality shit and behaved in increasingly demeaning ways (Crown Royal?! Bowling!?!?!) and the net result is -- yet again -- a virtually unchanged delegate count.
Enough. Seriously.
I have to say that I'm getting really tired of this. All the superdelegates should just say who they're voting for and bring this to the end. If they want to back Hillary Clinton despite Obama's majority in elected delegates, they should say so. Or if they want Barack Obama to be the nominee, they should say so. The idea that in two weeks we'll have another inconclusive primary, then another, then another, then another and then the superdelegates make up their mind is inane -- everyone else who follows politics can decide.
Yup.
Democratic superdelegates, unless you are the biggest attention whores/megalomaniacs on the planet, there's no good reason why you can't tell us who you're with now. We've been looking at these candidates for 13 months, we've seen them from every angle imaginable, we know more about them then we knew about John Kerry, Al Gore and Bill Clinton. And there's nothing Guam or Puerto Rico or South Dakota is going to tell us that we didn't already know.
Show us your cards. Give it up.
Pretty please?
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Not Zed!
Not a fan of pointless suspense, eh?
Show us your cards. Give it up.
…just don’t get it wrong by going with HRC!
“Stop the election before Hillary wins!”
Isn’t that what you really mean?
Real Democrats aren’t afraid of democracy.
Being the biggest attention whores/megalomaniacs on the planet would tend to make them pro-Clinton.
Why sir, that would defeat the whole process of the superdelegates and their very honor!
After all, what could be more American than a bunch of pampered weenies waiting for their every spoken utterance to be weighed and treasured like the Sermon on the Mount?
I think Dean is sayin that superdelegates should declare right after the primaries are completed on June 3rd. Makes sense. It’s only a month or so away.
I’ve heard that the attention ###### are “waiting” for the “resolution” to FL and MI. You know, the primaries where clinton was the only one a voter could “choose”?
i’m hoping that obama has a bunch of superdel announcements lined up for the next two weeks. Would be good for them to roll out one or two a day …
My bold. And that is exactly what they are, prima donnas primping for the cameras:
I so want Obama to be our candidate, that I am losing my perspective, cynicism, and patience. The only thing keeping me sane right now is voting on the MoveOn ads.
The more she campaigns, the more I am against Hillary. She loses me with every primary battle.
OT from the fdl newsbox
Like I say, Michael Chertoff the most incompetent man in Washington.
Superdelegates were created, I believe, after the 1968 dem convention fiasco in Chicago. Prior to that, it was possible to broker a convention and reforms made the primaries MUCH more important. Super Delegates were created to make room at the convention for dem officeholders and party officials so that they wouldn’t have to run as committed delegates. It was also thought that they could be a firewall to prevent the nomination of someone who looked great in the early primaries and then was discovered to be an axe murderer late in the process.
The superdelegates would probably not be such an issue if it weren’t for the meltdowns in Florida and Michigan. Now those regular delegates, who would probably have settled the issue, can’t vote.
It’s a little on the ugly side.
Amen. It’s bad enough that unelected croneys will make this decision in the first place. The fact that they can’t even do that right (unlike the Republicans, who are experts at nepotism and croneyism) is giving McCain his only shot at the White House.
http://newsprism.wordpress.com
Not true in Florida- Obama was on the ballot as well.
Re virtual border fence, where’s the incompetence? I bet boeing gets paid for the prototype. And I bet they or someone equiv gets to build a 2nd prototype. Who cares if it works as long as the funds keep flowing?
i’m of two minds on this. on the one hand, i think the people who haven’t gotten a chance to vote yet, should. on the other hand, i read here lots of people saying they think continuing the primary process is destructive (i don’t watch tv news - unless you count c-span - so i have no way to judge for myself on this one).
should the primary season have been shorter? would we be better off if all states have their elections by the first week in may instead of the first week in june?
(or was it Michigan- can’t remember for sure).
not that i’m making any accusations, but isn’t that exactly the story arc that’s playing out this time? Can’t someone step and warn that we should be careful with that ax?
They should do so now. Nothing is going to change between now and then but the infighting will continue to hurt the party. If this were some more polite less important election cycle, waiting until the end of the primaries would make sense but it isn’t and they shouldn’t.
K. Drum:
Do we get a refund?
Well, maybe, but about 300 of em apparently don’t WANT to commit now- and Dean can’t MAKE em. This will require leadership and compromise.
Actually superdelegates came out of the ‘72 McGovern and ‘76 Carter campaigns when a number of elected officials were not selected as delegates due to backing other than McGovern and Carter.
The ‘68 convention spawned the McGovern commission which set rules requiring that the state delegate make-ups reflect that particular state in composition. I.E., if the state was 52% female, 25% african-american, 15% native american, etc, then the delegates had to be the same, within a reasonable mix.
You know, reflect the diversity of the overall population and not just be Old white males.
Most?!?! isn’t like the whole administration vying for that title as well? *sigh* 20 milion down the shithole and yet I’m not surprised
Actually, the 2025-delegate-total-needed-to-win excludes Florida and Michigan.
Barring an overwhelming favorite candidate, superdelegates are required to win the nom.
I agree with BT — time to say who you’re gonna vote for. Aren’t superdelegates tired of the 3am phonecalls from Chelsea Clinton?
Who you gonna vote for? Say!
o/t (sorry if a repeat)
Betrayus chosen as new head of Centcom.
So those who don’t should have their names published so that voters in their home states can ask them why they aren’t.
But Blue…
What happens if the Super Delegates pretty much split…which continues the series of “indecisive” primaries?
The only way they’d really resolve anything is if they vote pretty much as a bloc. Then they could be decisive. But if they split that could make this thing drag out until Puerto Rico…or Montana. Or the convention.
Maybe Ms. Hamsher or Red could tell us if the Supers are back there negotiating with one another. Maybe they could fell two birds with one stone.
If the Superdelegates all go to Obama, then they could allow the elected delegates from Florida and Michigan to go to the convention. They could punish the conniving Superdelegates from those states by blocking them from the votes on the nominee. That would insure that those who CAUSED the issue get punished, some of those who voted in the primaries get enfranchised…with the Superdelegates “enfranchising” those who may not have had a nominee listed on their ballot or who may not have come out for what they thought was a “beauty contest”.
Florida and Michigan are happy, the primary fights are ended, and we don’t allow the Republicans to say “The Dim Nominee was elected in aPuerto Rico…a Spanish speaking land not even part of the United States…Hillary, El Presidente! Ha-ha, why not Guam!”
I believe all candidates agreed not to campaign in FL and MI. In MI, Obama, Edwards, and I think Richardson and Biden decided to remove their names from the ballot completely. Clinton, Dodd, Kucinich, and Gravel kept their names on the ballot but none of them campaigned.
Florida rules were that the only way a candidate could take their name of the ballot was by leaving the race completely.
I just worry there won’t be enough time to unify the pary behind the one candidate and camoaign in all 50 states in 9 weeks.
Yippy Ki yay
(petraeus article on nyt)
just agreed to be nominated, right? Does this position require congressional approval? (honest question) Not that our spineless reps would do ever disagree w/ the noble general …
You know, I had to pick a candidate March 4, and a lot of people had to pick earlier. These are supposed to be SuperDemocrats, with their fingers on the pulse and the ones who really know what’s going on in the party and the political landscape etc. etc. blah blah blah. What the hell?
My conspiracy theory which I hope is off-base but fear is true: Every superdelegate who hasn’t publicly expressed a preference is actually for Hillary and is just waiting for a less Florida-2000-like moment to announce. Because if you were a superdelegate and you were for Obama, wouldn’t you have said so a long time ago, to show Hillary resistance was futile?
And his idiot lieutenant Odierno has been named to lead ground forces in Iraq. As I said a thread or two ago, both of these require Senate confirmation and both should be opposed.
So during the dog-and-pony show, there was a reason McCain was asking him about Afghanistan?
Seems to me McCain is very bad about letting secrets out of the bag: Iran, Centcom….
you forgot gutless
Feb. ? all that on air handwringing (Brazile) - she was speaking about how bad it would be for Supers to ‘decide the race’ but what I heard was
oh my gawd ! we might have to independently decide something without polling or consenses - help me! help me!
remember darlings, these are so called establishment Dems
slim pick’ns, that you?
clinton hadname recognition. she has been a part of the national political discourse since Bill took office. Name brand has its advantages.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....471/457181
Link to a good discussion of the history of superdelegates.
Interesting. So Obama and Clinton continue to campaign against each other and, in effect, toil in the minors waiting for the chance to get to the “show.” Meanwhile, McCain’s topped out at 45% and can only go down from there.
Unless a meteorite lands on Obama’s head, we all know how this is going to play out. I’m content to sit back and let it.
Yep and it’s going to be very awkward for Hill & Bill to campaign for Obama after another 6 weeks of Kitchen Sink vitriol … this is doing a lot of damage to the Dems winning the Presidency …
If Superdelegates split, Obama would win because he is ahead in the regular delegate count.
well, i don’t count because while i don’t like either clinton or obama - i need less than 5 seconds of thinking about a president mccain and i’m wanting on that unity bus.
… i just have a difficult time thinking that even the hard sells will need more than a minute.
Which is another argument against the idea of a single day primary or having everything front loaded as it was this year.
Time for the Super Delegates to pick a team. I’m pulling a Rip Van Winkle. Wake me up when it’s over and we have a nominee.
I agree. Obama’s got this one wrapped up unless he’s indicted for child molestation…and the idea that McBush is benefiting from the mess is WAY over-rated….
is there any chance H&B are actually planning to campaign for Obama in the fall? I’ve been assuming not …
The Supers are a most “UnDemocratic” feature. Take Brendan Byrne, former Governor of NJ who was just given an unelected vote at the DNC and then promptly endorsed the Clintons. Byrne has no more right to be a voting delegate at the 2008 DNC than anyone else.
McGovern swept most of the later primaries in 72 and many party regulars were excluded from seats on the floor in Miami 72. The McGovern 72 ge debacle provided fuel for the fire against insurgent presidential candidates. This triggered the beginning of the superdelegates.
Obama is a much stronger candidate, in my view, than McGovern ever was. But the point is, would Obama win the nomination if there were no superdelegates and all delegates were elected based on a proportionate allocation of elected delegates?
The following numbers are taken from CNN as of March 15, 2008, as they tend to be more conservative with their pledged superdelegate numbers.
Total Delegates (Supers + Pledged)-
4,048
Total Pledged-
3,253
Total Supers-
795
Already Pledged-
2,647
Decided Supers-
444
Remaining Pledged-
606
Remaining Supers-
351
Obama Total-
1,611
Hillary Total-
1,480
It is impossible to predict exactly how the remaining delegates will be divvied up. However, as we look at the last couple of months, even with Hillary’s wins in the big states Obama is still slowly pulling ahead in pledged delegates with close loses and crushing wins in smaller, caucus states. So, let’s divide the remaining states up decidedly, and unrealistically, in Hillary’s favor. If we give Hillary 60% of the remaining pledged delegates (because it’s a nice round number, though certainly many more than she is expected to win) that brings their totals (including already decided supers) to-
Obama=
1,853
Hillary=
1,844
Now, let’s divide the remaining superdelegates (551) up according to the amount of pledged delegates that were won over the course of ALL the primaries.
Obama would have won 50.6% of the pledged delegates (1646/3253)
Hillary would have won 49.4% (1607/3253)
Breaking down the remaining supers based on these pledged percentages (as we assume they don’t want to make a decision for themselves on the convention floor) would produce the following numbers-
Obama + 178 = 2,031
Hillary + 173 = 2,017
Given this scenario, Obama would still attain the necessary 2,025 delegates to beat HRC. Obviously, this is very close to the threshold number whereby HRC wins. If just 7 of Obama’s delegates were given to HRC, then it would be a tie. If 8, Hillary wins. By this math, Hillary needs to win about 61% of the remaining pledged delegates to win, if the remaining supers are divided up at the DNC by the total number of pledged delegates won during the primaries. This of course includes all the Florida and Michigan delegates being seated at their full values.
The super issue is a distraction. Obam wins with no supers if they are reallocated to elected delegates and the Clintons should go home.
OK. Hope you didn’t miss my apology if it was a repeated headline…i’m a left coastie.
Anyway, here’s another graph to chew on:
It’s really the media who are pushing McCain. A lot of big Republican money has stayed away from him, probably A) because they don’t like him and B) because they think he is going to lose.
Re Puerto Rico,
Heard in passing on msnbc last night that the Governor is “under investigation.” I’m sure it’s just a coincidence right? Not related to their 53 delegates who are currently expected to go for Obama?
But that is just you because your going to vote dem but what about the others that are fence sitters? as we speak McCain gets to paint this bullshit picture of himself devoid of all truth. We need time to make our (dem) argument to those that haven’t decided to go dem, and who have been living off the lies that is the MSM and Bush co.
Or maybe they just really, really want to back the winner. And they are afraid they will pick the wrong one: that only they will pick Obama and all the others will pick Clinton. I wouldn’t want to be that lonely little superdelegate.
In about one week, Obama will surpass Clinton in superdelegates (he’s about 19 away from her now) and that will be it. There will be a huge rush to get to the front of that parade, and it will be over.
These aren’t obscure unelected persons; they are elected public officials and party leaders who want to be with the winner. If they cared which of the two was the nominee, they would have declared for one of them by now; they just want to be with who wins.
And some of them — Nancy Pelosi, for instance, who will chair the Denver convention — really can’t pick one candidate if there’s still a contest, in the interest of fairness. Until one candidate exceeds the margin of real victory, some people need to appear to be impartial.
But some, like Donna Brazile, just covet their teevee time.
I think he’s probably under investigation cuz he’s a Democrat without having any bearing on who in the Dem party the PR folks might be leaning towards.
and I think the Clintons who have owned the Party for sometime now, have pissed a lot of folks off by dictating to them - think the chickenshits are waiting for the olly olly Obama free and will go against them
Hillary has stated that she would campaign for Obama if he is the nominee but after the last 4 weeks, I don’t know how she will be able to reject her own assertions about him … Rove will have a field day playing her opposing comments together …
I think the process needs to play out. Obama may be inspirational, but his performance in the (awful, petty, but typical-of-the-media) ABC debate shows he has a lot of stammer/gaffe potential.
Besides, if he turns out blowing the next couple of months, we might not want him as a candidate.
No, No. The Clintons are not wanted in the ge. They are a distinct liability with no upside.
right … she has certainly said a lot of things over the last weeks ;)
yep, but hil says that stuff is just coming from their enthusiastic supporters from both sides. Both camps do it for their heroes. oh, yuck!
i assume the superdels are mostly about the money.
>$45M vs. -$2M should be pretty convincing.
i was expecting that to continue regardless of the dem primary.
Do I have this right, Democratic voters in FL and MI are being punished for voting too soon, and Democratic voters in states with primaries in May and June are to be punished for voting too late?
Gee, I was lucky to live in a Goldilocks primary voting state, just the right time.
… and she is priming him for the Big Fight … /s
because he stammers? after our last president I’ll take it.
Um, with the ginormous holes that the Clintons and McCains have dug for themselves, Obama’s “gaffes” pale in comparison.
I’m an Edwards gal who was happy to see her candidate on teh Colbert show. But I’ll take Obama as the only alternative left to the crap as usual BS. just sayin’
I’m not a big Levin fan. He did lay out a good description of the situation in Iraq at the Petraeus and Crocker dog and pony show although he did IIRC hit it’s the Iraqis’ fault meme too hard. If there is to be a war with Iran before Bush and Cheney leave office, Petraeus at CENTCOM and Odierno as commander of the Multi-National Force-Iraq is the way to go. It is difficult for me to encapsulate in a few words what a pair of clowns these two guys are.
It wouldn’t be the first time candidates did such an about-face. Look at McShrub. We have years of materials, from on and off the campaign trail, on his thoughts about his new bff Shrub. ’sides, didn’t Senator Clinton say that Senator Obama might be ‘ready’ to be in line for the presidency by the convention? Presumably, he’s studying hard…
I am not a superdelegate.
I am not a fan of Senator Clinton.
I am not a fan of Senator Obama.
I have no belief that either of them is particularly progressive.
They have both spouted Republican talking points at varying times throughout the campaign.
But as it stands now one of the two will be the nominee for the Democratic Party in November 2008.
Both have received roughly 45% of the votes cast in the primaries and caucuses held to date.
Scarecrow is correct in his comment from the other day that we’ve reached a point where folks need to determine what THEIR candidate should do to bring the supporters of the OTHER candidate back together in party unity.
My $.02
Well I’m tired of trying to convince people of the time issue versus low info or misinformed voters. Just no one bitch when the GE rolls around and Mccain is prez.
Yep, the alternative to how he behaved was to be as vicious as Hillary can be derided for it … no surprise that he won’t debate her again …
There is no doubt in my mind the Clintons will campaign for Obama should he be the nominee. A unified Democratic party is the key to a landslide this fall. And boy, do we need a landslide!
Oh I hear you and I’m gulping really hard. I checked out the Armed Services group to refresh my memory on who’s on it and it’s scary. Not to mention the two most warmongering candidates are on it as well. Sugarballs.
I have a hard time seeing anyone holding up the confirmation of Jesus H Petraeus….
I would bet that Obama will be the most progressive POTUS since Carter …
Yeah, hopefully we’re getting all the He’s Older Than Time jokes out of our system and assembling the real dirt asap.
gtg pups. sorry to miss the book salon on the Real McCain. should be a good one.
scary clowns, not funny clowns.
I were him I wouldn’t even acknowledge her. . .period.
Hugh, is there a final Delegate count for Penn. ?
not disagreeing… just saying i don’t have any way to judge for myself. which is why this is the first time i’ve commented on the issue. i’ll go back to lurking on this one.
That’s the part that scares me. The real dirt is out there, and no one seems to care.
I think McSame has a real chance… …wakes me up at night.
I agree … it would be like Rudy “Hey, he’s not as big a jerk as I am“ Giuliani campaigning for McCain …
You know, I’m done with debates, and primary contest, etc. The party needs to unify around a candidate and absolutely smack down the repugs for the prez and additional congressional seats
It’s a political process not a fairy tale story. It’s not perfect by any means or why else would so much time and effort be spent on two such small and unrepresentative states like Iowa and New Hampshire? MI and FL were avoidable errors and the voters in those states should be pissed at the Democratic leadership in those states for screwing them over. As for the remaining states? How will whatever they do change anything? And this is always what happens to those last to vote. It’s why the primary system as currently constituted sucks.
Well, I thought this was funny: Red State Update: Hillary Wins Pennsylvania
(h/t Margot)
He may be, but I’ve seen no evidence of it. I’ve seen a lot of evidence os fairly standard Chicago machine politician but not so much of a true progressive.
And for what it’s worth, Carter wasn’t all that progressive either in a lot of domestic areas. He was just a Christian who actually believed and practiced the Christian ethic.
What is the point of the Clintons, working with the Clintons etc. They are strictly for their own personal profit. What is this 45% for the Clintons based on. It seems like a drag along vote based on name recognition, race biting and gender issues raised by the Clintons and minimal education, again reverting to name recognition. On top of that the Clintons are much more dangerous than Obama. So put aside “progressive” and focus on dangerous and disorganized and dishonest. Then it becomes clear to me at least that the Clintons are not an alternative for any future.
No don’t go back to lurking. that was just my frustration talking. It wasn’t aimed directly at you at all. Just tired of the muck and now that we know the GOP is goiong to play the race card, I’d like to think that all dems would have his back instead of his democractic opponent possibly piggy backing off of it and causing further party fracture. (no pearl clutching, she has flirterd fast and furious with the race baiting)
I hope these hearings go on until the GE … Rove ‘hijacked’ the Dept. of Justice to win elections
GE; We bring good things to life.
Oh Lordy. Yeah, I hate democracy.
This ain’t no party!
We Dems are doing exactly what we always do - demanding perfection. It really irritates me because it’s not there and we shoot ourselves in the foot and whine and moan about every little thing. The Repubs pick any old thing, throw all their money behind him and win. We need to stop this and get behind a candidate and push as hard as we can. We need to stop saying “well, I’ll hold my nose and vote for him/her” Get Over it !
Until this election season, I would not have agreed with that statement… but now, I’m not so sure you are incorrect.
As one who will be in the next round of voting (Indiana), I would gladly give up my opportunity to cast a primary ballot to have this thing overwith NOW. My enthusiasm is wanning by the day. Supers, please put us out of our misery.
So, you’d just go ahead and trash the Clinton supporters and what they may have seen in the Clintons? If so, then it seems we might just as well hand the election to McSame.
Obama needs Clinton supporters to get elected President if he is the nominee just as Clinton would need Obama supporter if she is the nominee.
Democrats do NOT win elections by insulting and marginalizing half of the party, no matter how much some supporters of one candidate may dislike (hate) the other candidate.
You obviously have an extreme dislike for all things Clinton and feel that they are the root of all evil in Washington. That is your opinion and right.
I disagree with you which is my right.
You would lose that bet.
Progressive Punch ratings, which are based on voting record, as of a month ago:
Obama ranked 41st in the Senate
Clinton 24th
These Senators ranked more progressive:
Webb, Feinstein and Ben Nelson.
Never ceases to amaze me how fact free most of the threads throughout the ’sphere actually are.
This ain’t no disco,
This ain’t no foolin’ around
If it is not Hillary, the Clintons want to prevent that from happening.
And the primary system has sucked for a long time, every election cycle the states to vote late (justifiably) complain that they don’t get a say in the nominee.
It sucks every year, and it sucks this year, but it is time to pick a frickin candidate!
i just meant on this one issue - i still have plenty to say on other topics ;-)
He