Comments on: MoveOn and the 21st Century Campaign http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/ Firedoglake weblog Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:17:46 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: NoBlood4Hubris http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1402651 NoBlood4Hubris Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:33:11 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1402651 <p>I used to do MoveOn, and Progressive Democrats of America, etc etc. — but I don’t anymore. As of today, I don’t do Michael Moore.</p> <p>Don’t do any of them Hillary-hating blogs no more, neither.</p> <p>Boundaries. Mm-hm.</p> <p>Better than sliced bread.</p> I used to do MoveOn, and Progressive Democrats of America, etc etc. — but I don’t anymore. As of today, I don’t do Michael Moore.

Don’t do any of them Hillary-hating blogs no more, neither.

Boundaries. Mm-hm.

Better than sliced bread.

]]> By: Rayne http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1402503 Rayne Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:17:23 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1402503 <p>You really need to do your homework. Really.</p> <p>Do you know who the DNC really is? Hint: it’s NOT Howard Dean.</p> <p>Do you know who actually decided to exclude MI and FL? MI and FL did, because they failed to follow the very rules their own DNC committee members voted upon and agreed to.</p> <p>Do you know who persuaded MI legislators to push for an early primary, in contravention to DNC rules? <a href="http://www.michiganmessenger.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=661" rel="nofollow">Take a very good look</a>.</p> <p>Obviously you’re not from MI, and I’ll bet you’re not from FL either.</p> <p>And as for blaming MoveOn about McSame: why don’t you hold the media more accountable than MoveOn, hmm? 59-plus lobbyists on his campaign team, ongoing violation of campaign finance laws, complete and utter blackout of McCain’s health problems, while slurping up barbecue with the McCain family. </p> <p>Do your homework.</p> You really need to do your homework. Really.

Do you know who the DNC really is? Hint: it’s NOT Howard Dean.

Do you know who actually decided to exclude MI and FL? MI and FL did, because they failed to follow the very rules their own DNC committee members voted upon and agreed to.

Do you know who persuaded MI legislators to push for an early primary, in contravention to DNC rules? Take a very good look.

Obviously you’re not from MI, and I’ll bet you’re not from FL either.

And as for blaming MoveOn about McSame: why don’t you hold the media more accountable than MoveOn, hmm? 59-plus lobbyists on his campaign team, ongoing violation of campaign finance laws, complete and utter blackout of McCain’s health problems, while slurping up barbecue with the McCain family.

Do your homework.

]]> By: BooRadley http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1402025 BooRadley Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:31:12 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1402025 <p>Excellent thread, thanks.</p> Excellent thread, thanks.

]]> By: DeanOR http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401984 DeanOR Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:38:55 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401984 <blockquote><p>wish both orgs had decided to remain neutral and not do the polling/endorsing bit.</p> <p>Even if the vote was overwhelming for Obama, it is still going against the wishes of some number of folks supposedly on the same side.</p> <p>They should have followed the examples set by Ms Hamsher and FDL.</p></blockquote> <p>This is why I had a friendly divorce with MoveOn, although I agree with them on some issues and don’t want to trash them. I didn’t leave them, they left me. Apparently the only way to stop being a “member” is to unsubscribe and stop sending money, not that they will really miss my measly contribution. :) Not only did I disagree with their endorsement, I felt they would be much more effective remaining a critical force outside the system instead of aligning with any one candidate in a Democratic primary.</p>

wish both orgs had decided to remain neutral and not do the polling/endorsing bit.

Even if the vote was overwhelming for Obama, it is still going against the wishes of some number of folks supposedly on the same side.

They should have followed the examples set by Ms Hamsher and FDL.

This is why I had a friendly divorce with MoveOn, although I agree with them on some issues and don’t want to trash them. I didn’t leave them, they left me. Apparently the only way to stop being a “member” is to unsubscribe and stop sending money, not that they will really miss my measly contribution. :) Not only did I disagree with their endorsement, I felt they would be much more effective remaining a critical force outside the system instead of aligning with any one candidate in a Democratic primary.

]]> By: NorskeFlamethrower http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401956 NorskeFlamethrower Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:06:30 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401956 <p>1,819 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…</p> <p>Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:</p> <p>Thank you for throwin a block for MoveOn…now can we go a bit further than jest holdin’ a group hug for them. Ken we encourage Democrats to look at those Democratic candidates and elected officials who demonize MoveOn and contrast their politics and support base with MoveOn? Then let’s encourage Democrats to compare their own politics and issue priorities with those of MoveOn.</p> <p>The result I think can not only be instructive to Democratic voters, but ken help expose the DINOs and DLCers in the party and put ‘em on the defensive. The expose of Mrs. McClinton demonizin’ MoveOn comes almost simultaneously with the announcement that Richard Mellon Scaife is endorsin’ her…this should give pause to McClinton supporters and get them to take off the rose colored glasses and look at where McClinton’s funding base is centered.</p> <p>I have argued here before that I think that the Democratic Party “base” is reflected in the caucus participants and in the MoveOn membership…jest ask if a Democrat can win a national election without 100% of MoveOn’s muscle. Or, better still, ken a Democratic candidate for President win with the support of the DLC and Ricard Scaife and not MoveOn?</p> <p>A very bright light has been turned on Mrs. McClinton’s candidacy and her politics in the last 6 days…now have any of her supporters taken a look?</p> <p>KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION THEIR COMIN’ AFTER US NEXT!!</p> 1,819 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thank you for throwin a block for MoveOn…now can we go a bit further than jest holdin’ a group hug for them. Ken we encourage Democrats to look at those Democratic candidates and elected officials who demonize MoveOn and contrast their politics and support base with MoveOn? Then let’s encourage Democrats to compare their own politics and issue priorities with those of MoveOn.

The result I think can not only be instructive to Democratic voters, but ken help expose the DINOs and DLCers in the party and put ‘em on the defensive. The expose of Mrs. McClinton demonizin’ MoveOn comes almost simultaneously with the announcement that Richard Mellon Scaife is endorsin’ her…this should give pause to McClinton supporters and get them to take off the rose colored glasses and look at where McClinton’s funding base is centered.

I have argued here before that I think that the Democratic Party “base” is reflected in the caucus participants and in the MoveOn membership…jest ask if a Democrat can win a national election without 100% of MoveOn’s muscle. Or, better still, ken a Democratic candidate for President win with the support of the DLC and Ricard Scaife and not MoveOn?

A very bright light has been turned on Mrs. McClinton’s candidacy and her politics in the last 6 days…now have any of her supporters taken a look?

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION THEIR COMIN’ AFTER US NEXT!!

]]> By: Bluetoe2 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401944 Bluetoe2 Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:01:27 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401944 <p>What are Americans prepared to do if the Republicans steal yet another election?</p> What are Americans prepared to do if the Republicans steal yet another election?

]]> By: Crosstimbers http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401940 Crosstimbers Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:57:49 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401940 <p>Actually, a lot of us do, we just don’t have your confidence in reading bird entrails. I mean this Olympian assurance gets a little irritating to us mortals. Still, we’ll struggle on with our little pea brains and hope you omniscient ones will give us a break.</p> Actually, a lot of us do, we just don’t have your confidence in reading bird entrails. I mean this Olympian assurance gets a little irritating to us mortals. Still, we’ll struggle on with our little pea brains and hope you omniscient ones will give us a break.

]]> By: DWBartoo http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401918 DWBartoo Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:47:03 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401918 <p>Very thoughtful comment.</p> <p>Also very true, especially as regards actual ‘participatory’ democracy.</p> <p>Which I favor.</p> Very thoughtful comment.

Also very true, especially as regards actual ‘participatory’ democracy.

Which I favor.

]]> By: DWBartoo http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401908 DWBartoo Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:41:12 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401908 <p>Absolutely, dakine, let ‘celebrities’ endorse, while wiser folk allow the people to come to their own conclusions, with a little in the way of ‘educational’ opportunities, which the candidates will provide by way of self-revelation.</p> <p>Likewise, the people, as ‘partisans’ should not clamor for the candidate of another ‘partisan’ to ‘withdraw’.</p> Absolutely, dakine, let ‘celebrities’ endorse, while wiser folk allow the people to come to their own conclusions, with a little in the way of ‘educational’ opportunities, which the candidates will provide by way of self-revelation.

Likewise, the people, as ‘partisans’ should not clamor for the candidate of another ‘partisan’ to ‘withdraw’.

]]> By: ekunin http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401907 ekunin Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:41:09 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/21/moveon-and-the-21st-century-campaign/#comment-1401907 <p>There’s really two alternatives, either some sort of hierarchy where bosses change and those who aren’t bosses vie to become a boss or direct electronic democracy. I believe the latter is the way to go and micro targeting isn’t a step in that direction. Electronc democracy is not perceived as a reasonable solution because the unwashed mass is incapable of understanding. Ironically the same arguments were used against representative democracy in 1776. </p> <p>While I think Moveon’s heart is in the right place (Obama doesn’t walk on water, but he’s better than Hillary) the Betrayus ad illustrates the problem. To say Moveon is beyond criticism says way too much. I don’t know how much debate went into the Betrayus ad or who did the debating, but as I see it, Moveon mostly wants money from its members and not a lot of input into what it does. That’s the way things are. I have no alternative, but I’m sure there must be one. That’s because I assume problems have solutions. That may not be the case.</p> There’s really two alternatives, either some sort of hierarchy where bosses change and those who aren’t bosses vie to become a boss or direct electronic democracy. I believe the latter is the way to go and micro targeting isn’t a step in that direction. Electronc democracy is not perceived as a reasonable solution because the unwashed mass is incapable of understanding. Ironically the same arguments were used against representative democracy in 1776.

While I think Moveon’s heart is in the right place (Obama doesn’t walk on water, but he’s better than Hillary) the Betrayus ad illustrates the problem. To say Moveon is beyond criticism says way too much. I don’t know how much debate went into the Betrayus ad or who did the debating, but as I see it, Moveon mostly wants money from its members and not a lot of input into what it does. That’s the way things are. I have no alternative, but I’m sure there must be one. That’s because I assume problems have solutions. That may not be the case.

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