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The Bush Administration has denied for years that we are bogged down in an Iraqi civil war, but now there is no doubt we’re not only in the middle of a Shia-on-Shia war but carelessly inflaming it in ways that could easily benefit Iran. The last thing this explosive situation needs is more gasoline from Secretary of War Rice, who went out of her way to taunt al-Sadr by calling him a coward.
Moktada al-Sadr and Nuri al-Maliki have issued mutually exclusive ultimatums: al-Maliki ordered the Mahdi Army to disband or be banned from participating in next fall’s elections. It’s unlikely al-Sadr will unilaterally disband his militia when every other political force in Iraq has its own militia or loyal forces embedded in Iraq’s Army. al-Sadr issued his own ultimatum, demanding that the al-Maliki government cease its operations against the Mahdi militia and its siege of Sadr City, or face all-out war for the "liberation" of Iraq from the US occupiers and their puppet government.
This should be the point where diplomacy would be helpful to prevent an uncontrollable civil war that might spill over into Iran. But this is the Bush Administration, and recall that Rice encouraged Israel to lay siege to Gaza and pursue Hezbollah in Lebanon even as the rest of the world decried the mounting civilian casualties; she’s playing midwife again, only this time it’s Sadr city civilians bearing the birth pangs for a new Iraq. The only person who might stop this madness would be a rational Republican nominee not wishing to be saddled with a three-front war. But John McCain wants this too.
The Administration wanted this fight, and Petraeus’ first duty is to protect the Green Zone from rocket attacks. His only tactical complaint was his claim — which now appears disingenuous — that the Iraqis tried to move against Basra before US forces were ready. He blamed al Maliki’s impatience for the initial stumbles, but as soon as the offensive stalled, the Americans (and British) bailed out the Iraq Army with their fire power and embedded forces. The offensive now appears to be succeeding in establishing Iraq Army control of Basra, due in part to the Iranians, who arranged al-Sadr’s withdrawal and seem willing to have the Government in control of Southern Iraq.
There have been other reports that suggest Iran is willing to allow the al-Maliki government to consolidate control, preferring that to the less controllable — by Iran — elements of Sadr’s more nationalist militia. [Update: This noteworthy NYT article suggests a convergence of US/Iranian interests in some areas, noting Iran's interest in a stable Shia-led Southern Iraq, led by Iran's closest allies in the al-Maliki government. It also notes the Iranians oppose US efforts to isolate Sadr City.] That means the Bush Administration and John McCain are engaged in a massive bait and switch about who we’re fighting and why.
As Glenn Greenwald explains, Bush and McCain continually make misleading and incoherent statements about al-Qaeda, Shia extremists and Iran, linking them together in ways that justify continuing occupation. In recent weeks, they’ve repeatedly linked Iran to the Mahdi militia opposing the US siege of Sadr City. But as Juan Cole points out, McCain’s description of "al-Qaeda" and what would happen if the US withdrew is nonsense:
Since the Shiites are 60 percent and by now well armed and trained, and since the Sunni Arabs are only 17 percent of the population and since only about 1 percent of them perhaps supports Salafi radicalism–how can the latter hope to take over? . . .
McCain’s whole discourse on Iraq is just a typical rightwing Washington fantasy made up in order to get you to spend $15 billion a month on his friends in the military industrial complex and to get you to allow him to gut the US constitution and the Bill of Rights.
With McCain’s nonsense providing the cover (reinforced by the Pentagon’s propagandists embedded in the media), US forces are providing the critical military difference in a civil war to solidify the political and military power of the most pro-Iranian elements in Iraq — the parties of al-Maliki and his Shia allies — all of whose leaders have strong ties to Iran. But by identifying al-Sadr’s resistance fighters in Sadr City with Iran, and attributing US deaths to Iranian weapons and Iranian trained fighters, (recall Lieberman’s questions to Petraeus) Bush and McCain are unmistakably keeping the door open for a possible military strike against Iran.
Number of questions ABC’s Stephanopoulos asked McCain about this on This Week? Zero. Instead, George Will focused on attacking Obama for wanting to raise Will’s capital gains taxes. Time spent on this at last week’s debate? None. Ditto for this week’s Meet the Press, where the NBC panelists excused ABC’s performance.
Related posts:
- Republicans Talk, Ahmedinejad Smiles
- House Voting on Iran Resolution; Human Rights Activist Not Against It, But…
- Iranian Dissident Akbar Ganji: Praise for Obama’s “No Meddling” Pledge, but President Should Address Human Rights Abuses
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- Iran: Don’t Lead, Don’t Follow, and Instead Get Out of the Way





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yo crow
Anyone watch George yesterday morning? The “roundtable” was supposed to talk about the debate?
without either iran’s or our backing – would maliki have a chance against sadr? does maliki have any natural constituency within iraq?
…. or, would it just mean that maliki would be out?
do we have any business interfering at all – even diplomatically?
It is part of the rovian permanent repugnant administration plan. Keep ‘merca at war so that we have no time to change presidents. Ef em all
Or did she provoke a verbal war here at home:
Good morning, Scarecrow.
We need to get the word out to the right wing foamers that Condi wants the gummint to take their guns away:
Of course, those of us here at the lake know there is no danger; we haven’t had a functioning democratic state for seven years now.
Good morning Scarecrow.
It sounds to me as though the US and al-Maliki believe they will be able to “take down” al-Sadr and the Mahdi Army, probably just in time for the November elections in the US. This seems especially plausible if the Iranians are supporting the gig as well.
Guess I owe you the drink of your choice. How about coffee this morning? (Mine’s in my new Disappearing Bill of Rights cup my wife bought me last week.)
That is a very unpatriotic question. To engage in the conversation, you’re supposed to assume that the only country that has an unqualified right to have a militia in Iraq is the US. Everyone else is illegitimate.
The problem with America’s political disccourse is that none in the chattering class can get beyond that assumption, while the rest of the world starts with it.
Yo. Yes I watching the greenies. George surrounded himeself with sympathizers to avoid criticisms of the debate performance. George Will opened with Obama and capital gains, Sam Donaldson gave his version of “if you can’t stand the heat . . .” and Cokie Roberts was just way to subtle for me. Steph had just interviewed McCain, who managed to dodge every question, but no one wanted to talk about that. Perhaps the rules were, they weren’t supposed to listen.
Good Morning Scarecrow, are you wearing your flag pin whilst you impugn selise’s patriotism?
I wonder if Condi wore hers when she went over there to provoke more and better civil wars
Condi Bio Working Title:
Dressing Up, Sucking Up, F**king Up and Bailing Out:
The Role of Untethered Ambition in Academia, the Corporate World and Public Service.
BushCo has two stark choices: Declare a state of emergency, or face domestic and international prosecution when they leave their current address.
We, on the other hand, are obliged to play out the Constitutional process until they make their move. I’d rather see their frogs marching than ours boiling, but this is going to be close.
Looks to me like this will either blow up well before the elections, or reach some stage where the right/neocons will be claiming “success” — but not too much success — for the McCain strategy. The last few weeks have tarnished that perception in the public as violence has spread, so it’s critical for McCain that the US military regain control well before the election to reestablish the belief that things are okay.
We’ve basically got 140,000 plus troops being asked to risk their lives to make John McCain look good.
Traditional pentagon strategy for title Fuck Up And Move Up.
I do wish she would hurry up and bail out, then. It would do the world a big favor.
I certainly wouldn’t want to be a grunt when a million Shiites decide to throw the GZG and the Americans out. Condi Rice = 21st Century von Ribbentrop.
sorry to be uninformed, but who is von Ribbentrop?
but here’s what your post is missing scarecrow;
,
the administration, the pnac, the neo cons, they do not want peace, they want unending war, they want unrest
there is money and treasure in war, more money and more treasure then you can imagine and it is this treasure they want for themselves
if you want to rob the treasure of a country, of a continent, all it takes is war
cheney did it with rumsfeld during the nixon administration, making up whatever it took to continue the cold war and then he did it again with iraq
but Iraq is already played out and we are not going to let them start their war in the rest of the world so they are doing what it takes to have the rest of the world start war with us
pelosi needs to be unseated and sent home to do something else, she is outmatched and outplayed
You have it right, the old champagne salesman turned foreign minister
to hustle the english countryhouse crowd and the third rate pianist
would have made a great team. Good one!
Hitler’s Foreign Minister from 1938-45. Hanged at Nuremberg.
“http://greatdivide.typepad.com/across_the_great_divide/2008/04/this-ad-execs-s.html”>Good read on Loyalty Beyond Reason.
Excerpt:
Kevin Roberts, CEO of Saatchi & Saatchi, gave his presentation to members of various U.S. defense intelligence agencies back in 2005. [snip]
Roberts says that while reason leads to conclusions, emotion leads to action.
Using emotion instead of reason is a big, transformational idea, no matter what the problem is. From the biggest moral issue to the world of breakfast cereals. Emotion works.
Even if your problem is selling Brand America.
…(Roberts) argues that America should actually head in a different direction, redefine its mission as making the world a better place, and then tackle poverty, hunger and disease as top priorities.
‘Morning Scarecrow:
Does anyone here believe that Sadr will not prevail?
This is not about us.
America is just playing the fool, a role we have become rather adept at, of late (say, since Reagan).
The die has been cast.
Short of “Nuke ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out …” we’ve no options and our troops are sitting ducks.
We have no true friends in Irak, only those who detest us.
We create more of them everyday.
Our job is not to bemoan our inability to stop the madness.
It is to stop the madness.
Can anyone of us say, ‘We have done enough …’?
Same as the cold war, and by converting defeat in Vietnam into a lost
cause we practise counter insurgency war globally… perpetual war for
perpetual peace, ht/ Gabriel Kolko.
Yikes! Screwed up linky. Here it is again. Topic: Loyalty Beyond Reason.
Looks like McCain will do his “Amnesia Tour” this week:
So he’ll start with trying to make folks forget he was 30 years too late in supporting equal rights and voted for all of the jerks in the Justice Department who tried to disenfranchise black Americans. Then he’ll more to Youngstown, whose name sits on the most important Supreme Court decision limiting the President’s authority which the President and his Justice Department ignored in sanctioning torture, illegal spying. Then on to Appalachia, whose residents have been ignored forever by Republicans and whose coal miners have been victimized by toothless non-enforcement of safety regulations, and finally to New Orleans, which has been abandoned by the Republicans. What an absolute fraud.
The Democrats should have a “remember what they actually did/stand for” demonstration waiting for him at every stop.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..ccain_dc_4
Does anyone know what the ratings are for these Fossil Fashion Shows?
When I was much younger, I, like most of my ilk [young Capitol Hill staffers] used to watch these programs, believing that the “grown-ups” had some inside information that might be useful.
Now that I’m all “growed up” and have put away such childish things, I wonder if there’s anyone younger who would turn to these Neanderthals for enlightenment. Or does their audience consist only of fossils my age [disclaimer: I don’t watch, but I’m apparently their demographic] who are dying off?
Rice Calls Sadr a “Coward”; Echoes “Bring’em On”
by: Brandon Friedman
Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 19:11:35 PM EDT
Sitting bravely behind concrete walls while visiting Iraq this weekend, Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice chose to channel her boss (circa 2003) by responding to Muqtada al-Sadr’s latest threat with an official “taunt” from the U.S. government:
——————
my mind thought “bring it on too” fuck her BARREN narcissitic self,for BRINGING MISERY and DEATH to OTHER PEOPLES children….MONSTER!
Maybe they should use this for his appearances in Alabama:
True, and sad to say many people do not have access to internet sources
to make up for “vast wasteland revisited” offerings on television. TV
is the bottom feeder zone of one way discourse these days, never much
more than that before.
The latest political flap is Obama stating that McCain would be better than Bush, so now that he and Clinton have all but endorsed the man, I don’t know why they’re still arguing in PA.
My guess is that Bush/Cheney drum up the attack on Iran to occur just after McCain’s election but before the innauguration. McCain’s innaugural address can then call for sacrifice, including a draft, to help fight the defining struggle of our times — the battle to win in Vietnam . . . er, I mean the Middle East.
At the Bridge, Im sure he will recall that he opposed/hated Martin Luther King before he supported him. In my view, his appearance here is an outrage. Maybe John Lewis can be there to ask McOld where he was 40 years ago when Lewis was assaulted by Alabama goons. It is more than sad, let’s say disrespectful, for that R/candidate to visit that site. I wonder if he has ever been there before? If he will have any responses to W for offensive racist slurs. What a chance to distance himself. Probably not.
Actually, many of us interact with our televisions. We yell, we swear, we throw things.
Ding! Every election year is 1968, and will be until the Vietnam victory
myth is replaced by some other lie,
Good morning, Scarecrow and all-
Scarecrow, I think you’re right…Rice is a diplomat the same way Michael Brown was an emergency manager. I’m just surprised we’ve decided to provoke it, instead of staving it off for as long as possible.
More here: Dien Bien Phu, Iraq
Like last wed. night?
The neocons will probably start another think tank named after her. A longer lasting legacy than some ol’ oil tanker. Killing Arab children by proxy is Kristol’s stock in trade.
I was there.
The context was the stupidity of Bush policy.
only if they think he’s going to win.
if they think mcsame is going to loose – then the attack comes before the elections for twofer (hail mary for mcsame and they get their war on).
bingo bingo bingo
I do not believe there will be elections this cycle
I’ve probably mentioned this before, but Adam Curtis’ exceptional BBC series, “Century of the Self” is an absolute must-see.
Linky.
Series begins with The Big Morph from propaganda to public relations, effectively sold to both America and Germany (and beyond) by Edward Bernays and perpetuated by the likes of Frank Luntz and Karl Rove.
Republicans totally understand how to highjack any topic and make it theirs (think patriotism and the American flag for starters). Dems are ever and always on the defensive, by which time it’s basically too late.
Of course I hope you are wrong. Were that the case Im guessing we may all be arrested in the streets.
Yep. If I were predicting an attack on Iran, and I am, it will be either the new moon,
first week of August, to knock the Democratic Convention off TV. Secondary prediction: new moon, 29th October-an October surprise to help McCain..
Would that it will not be so.
yes — I was being facetious. I saw larger quotes, and he’s right that on some issues, McCain could hardly be worse. However, on war issues, I think McCain is more dangerous, and yet the right wing and compliant media got totally taken in by McCain speech saying he would listen to our allies — just like he did in recommending the Iraq invasion and the surge and disparaging the Iraq Study Group’s plan for disengaging.
Good morning Scarecrow. Somber post.
I hope I am wrong also but man elections do not add up
they cannot believe mccain has a chance and they have not amassed this power for a clinton or a women or all three
as far as arresting us in the streets, the masses will aqquiesse
I don’t foresee any difficulty in painting McCain as a nut.
Shades of ‘64.
Irony alert and belaboring my point just a tad longer, I just this minute got an email from Rockridge Institute (George Lakoff’s baby). They’re shutting down. The man (and organization) who understand best of anyone what progressives are up against can’t do it any more. This tiny organization represented one of America’s best hopes against the likes of…oh, you know.
uss liberty (on it’s way to the persian gulf) last reported position was south china seas about a week ago.
… any chance the latest saber rattling in the region has anything to do with this?:
I’m not part of that mass. If there is war in Iran instead of an election, I don’t plan to sit quietly.
What will the denizens of the Lake do when Amerika attacks Iran?
Wring our hands and decry our fate?
What will they do if McCain can steal the election?
What will they do if wee Georgie refuses, via Directive 51, to leave?
Oh, woe …
Hey, don’t ruffle my equinimity, I’ve just gotten comfortable …
Great link, Elias Canetti’s Crowds And Power and Chris Lasch’s Culture
Of Narcissism are good texts to augment the documentary… Moyers also
did a piece on Bernays years ago, thanks for the link!
I don’t believe the Bushies would attempt to overthrow the elections per se (overthrowing the results a la Floriday/2000 is another matter). George Will said something interesting yesterday — “we only need Senator Mitch McConnell and 45 Republicans to stop the Democratic Administration from getting its agenda through.”
There it is: the Republican agenda for the next four years is to obstruct everything as long as the Democrats have Congressional majorities.
That is why the Democrats’ division at this point is so frustrating; we can’t solve anything unless we absolutely crush the Republicans, and right now we can’t even be sure we’ll have a Democratic President, let alone one with a strong electoral mandate. I’d say the chances now are about 48-52. (Digby still says it’s 51-49, but I’m always more pessimistic than the really smart people.)
They don’t want to invest the money, then see it either bombed or seized by the US.
Just a quick heads up for everyone: Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton will be here to chat live on 10:30 am ET/7:30 am PT regarding the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. Hope you can join us!
‘mornin’, Christy!
Gimme a happy topic in the news and I’ll give you a mini post in a post.
The pope? Don’t bother.
The Democratic presidental campaign? Depresssing.
The state of the media? You must be kidding. I can’t even get through that whole NYT article on the generals with conflicts of interest being our “experts.”
It is Spring, and I planted pansies yesterday near my front door.
this is OT
but at 10:30 Christy will be hosting Rep. Eleanor Holmes Norton
Do NOT go there in the comments. Or elsewhere, either.
She’ll be here at 10:30 am ET, FYI…
pansy planting is always happy news.
You needn’t tell me,specifically, just knowing you’ve got some ‘contingency planning’ is what matters …
I’m certain everybody’s been thinking about, ‘contingency’, let’s just acknowledge that it is so.
But, let’s not tip our hand …
Lte’s get together on this.
please do not incite.
C’mon, don’t get crazy. When the Soviet Union and its umbrella states were falling, the way it happened was for virtually the entire country to shut down all other activities and take to the streets to call out a government that no longer was legitimate. Given the economic disaster we now are in, if Bush and Cheney attacked Iran and called off the elections, I think our country would be at that stage. No violence is required when a government destroys itself. It simply loses all authority with the people. This doesn’t require organization, all it takes is for the government to take the final step away from legitimacy.
selise I was not inciting
But clearly, I must preface my questions more carefully.
Thanks for the heads up, though.
Christy, I’m not advocating anything. As much as I try to live up to the standards of Gandhi and others, if this country were to become victim of a coup d’main where elections are called off, we invade another country and martial law is imposed here I could not be a Martin Niemoller, with all due respect to the good reverend. Should those things happen, and it is hypothetical, there will be a response from the public. And it won’t be marching in the streets carrying signs. Because the thought that BushCo would do such a thing is considered irrational by intelligent people doesn’t mean they wouldn’t try it. My response was an honest answer to a horrible scenario.
the use of violence also serves to de-legitimize the opposition.
Let’s hope we could accomplish our goals in this manner.
Crazy?
Thanks.
So?
Tell what we must not even think about.
I have advocated nothing, not violence, not insurrection.
Are we afraid to even think?
I merely asked what we might do.
Presumably we would (and will) do something?
Or not.
But, my apologies to any whom I have offended.
Christy, I apologize if I have brought scrutiny upon us.
That was not my intent.
While the Administration’s policy is incoherent, as I have pointed out, in their minds at least, the reason behind going after al Sadr is to establish a justification for an attack on Iran by either Israel or us.
There was a time I thought if it were to happen, it would be Israel who would attack first. Now I’m not sure. What do you think, if an attack on Iran occurs, will it be US or them?
Either way, it will be us.
And here’s another dead horse to beat. I absolutely believe that if Pelosi had put impeachment on her empty table, that level of scrutiny could have mitigated against this whole thing.
I really hope it doesn’t come to that. I keep telling myself that they aren’t crazy enough to attack Iran, but the arguments for why they would fit so well into their previous behavior that I certainly can see how it could happen.
My goals remain getting a Democrat into the White House and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. We need then to have a very thorough examination of what has happened under Bush and significant criminal and civil penalties need to be applied to those who have broken the law and abused the Constitution.
It is a distinction without a difference, Israel cannot act “alone”.
And why is that? They are locked and loaded.
I find her passivity astonishing. A table can be reset. I thought her original statement was what it is: a metaphor. I would never have thought it was an oath. How could she has rejected oversight at that early stage?
This is my hope as well.
Bush and McCainall the politicians continually make misleading and incoherent statements aboutal-Qaedathe truth and our future.I made two edits to show how I see almost all the news I’m reading.
And, I don’t even want to talk about the price of gas!
I don’t understand this either. The argument that impeachment is a distraction completely blows my tiny mind. It is the main event. It is alpha and omega. It is the only possible defense of real (as opposed to BushCo) democracy. I so totally believe this.
And part of what must fit is how war fits into the Revalations call for war before the rapture and the EndTimes. Some people believe this stuff in a factual, predictive way. This view is totally scary; it’s the Hagee view that all this middle East war must happen to fulfill the Bible. This view needs to be called out for what it is: dangerous and crazy.
I agree. I still think they would like Israel to strike first and then say: see the Israelis were justified look at all the mayhem Iran has been causing in Iraq. Also once the shooting starts I think they think we would be drawn in “to defend Israel”, there would be big bombing campaign, the Iranians would overthrow the mullahs, strew rose petals in our path, and thank us for bombing them.
How many PA folks here? Tomorrow is your day, and we’re counting on you. I’ll be in Harrisburg Tuesday night, watching the returns.
As smart and articulate as we are on this blog, none of Scarecrow’s analysis missed the few smart, balanced people at State and DoD that Rummy and Condi haven’t purged. Which means their bosses know it, and so do Bush and Cheney. They don’t care or don’t believe it, something one might say about their reaction to Richard Clarke’s warnings about the possibility of an imminent attack inside the US in 2001.
If they don’t care, they consider the current chaotic warfare beneficial to their political interests. Rather like a philandering husband considers his wife’s depression an enabler instead of the outcome of his philandering. If they don’t believe it, they are so mired in their fantasy world that they think swaggering deadly force is the only resolution to the world’s ills, not their cause. Whichever it is, do we need four more years of it?
I think part of the argument has been that the votes are not there; Reid has said this. That ignores the opportunity to investigate; the votes may grow. I don’t know. Some folks suggest the blackmail/we’ve all been involved cover. Who knows?
They can act but only in the absolute expectation of US support, they
cannot withstand a united assault from China’s clients in the area except
by the Masada optiom of nuclear suicide.
Yeah, that silly Constitution and defending it is a distraction.
Wilkom!
OT – i’m doing a list of congressional hearings for this week (in between comments), will leave a note at the bottom of this thread when i’m done for anyone who wants to check back (there are several i think folks here will be interested in).
The short answer is no. Beyond that I don’t think the country would survive (at least as anything that we would recognize) a McCain Presidency.
Thanks much selise. We really appreciate what you do in keeping tabs on Congress.
there will be more democrats, better democrats thanx to the lake, you me, all comentors, all the blogs
they know as a fact the democrats will get their agenda through
they cannot possibly believe the will reclaim the presidency for at least two entire administrations, that’s 16 years
scarecrow, we all hope I am wrong, including myself but we all know about the “executive orders” giving the president the right to declare emergency for any reason he chooses, we also know they have already told their corporate owners they have the right to shoot to kill not “if” there is martial law but “when”
we all hope I am wrong…all of us
I guess that’s what I had in mind, the ultimate hole card.
I could not agree more. I’ve being saying the same thing since 06 when the call for impeachment was at its apex. Impeachment then, as now, would be a waste of time, money and energy. Better to wait and attempt to bring these war criminals to justice. Simply throwing them out of office is not acceptable to me. These people have been, and continue to be, the cause of death for hundreds of thousands of people. And for good measure we should sanction the living hell out of Israel and force them out of Palestine.
Sorry, I don’t usually start my morning with a rant.
Does anyone else think that in the above photo Rice looks like she should be answering phones on the Enterprise?
Selise – I will look for your list, since I might be home this week. Thanks for all of your continuing hard work on the lists for us.
It’s a weak argument, typical of Democrats. If the votes aren’t there because Republicans, as we know, put party ahead of country – including ABUSING the impeachment provision to further their political aims – then you go to the public to force them.
You launch a drive to repeat ad nauseum the crimes this admin. has perpetrated, get the public calling for impeachment, and put Republicans in the position of having no choice: it’s Bush or re-election, dudes!
But Dems didn’t even try to do the right thing. Good grief.
George W. Bush has gotten away with sh*t his entire life. I cannot for the life of me figure out how such an obvious incompetent and cad has managed to do so.
If that happens, I think the country might soon pine for something as peaceful as Gandhi’s passive resistance.
I shall try to temper my crazy incitfulness sufficiently to go vote, tomorrow Scarecrow.
Obama signs are sprouting in great profusion here in Pittsburgh, and there are almost as many Clinton signs.
One of them will win. I think that is a ’safe’ statement, but you all should feel free to warn me if I’ve transgressed in suggesting such an outcome.
I just heard coverage of HRC doing a rant/reprise of the remarks that McCain is better than Bush. She makes herself sound like a cheerleader for McCain.
China’s policy is to go out on a limb for nobody but China. Israel hasn’t faced a “Masada” moment in its relatively short history. This is a myth. None of its neighbors or potential adversaries have nuclear weapons. The Israelis on the other hand have around 300. So really the nuclear threat emanates from Israel and not the other way around.
Go Hillary!
(or better yet: Gore, pleeeze step in and save the Democrats!)
So the spin this time will be that we must rush to the defense of our equally war-mongering ally? Sadly, I agree with you.
Seymour Hersh wrote a book, The Sampson Option, that chronicles the
nuclear aspirations of Israel and the limits geography places upon
it, namely that of a suicide pact that involves others like us.
those of you interested in ABC’s This Week, here’s the panel of pundits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUQ3QmpeZKw
Only to Obama’s supporters.
It’s like how only Bush supporters heard Gore saying he invented the Internet when the rest of us knew what he said.
I hear her saying, correctly, that in the General election, she had more depth and heft to go up against McCain’s and Obama doesn’t.
Just curious: when Obama praised McCain and called him a hero, was he “cheerleading” for him?
More evidence of her “scorched earth” strategy for the nomination. I think that it is further evidence of why she should not be the party’s nominee now or ever. This election really isn’t about you, Hillary. Get over it.
So your solution for the impeachment problem is Hillary? She is the last
person to throw that rock in the glass house she lives in.
The thing that Hillary does best is pit people against each other. Divide and conquer. We must assume this would be her domestic and foreign policy approach. Obama is her ally. The damage she has done is incalculable. May Pennsylvanians have the wisdom to stifle her.
It’s evidence of why she should be and why Obama will lose in November.
Huh?????
Wow.
Where’d you get that?
ABC? Appalling Broadcasting Catastrophe? Fah!
isn’t that cute how they giggle at their silly viewers about the capital gains complaint against their own Gibson.
I don’t think she said that.
As, some of here have been saying, personal bias = perspective = filter.
We hear what we want to hear.
Oops, meant to say “Bush or IMPEACHMENT”
Yes, Juno, it’s all about Hillary, blah, blah, blah. If Obama loses it won’t be because Clinton kept sticking shivs in his back.
China has acquired energy needs that make going out on a limb less
optional than before, they have their own oil port in Saudi now, the
only other beside the US. Iran does not have to develop their own nuclear
capability, China will give it to them if they have not already, then a
balance of power will emerge in the ME that Israel can do nothing about.
I’m a tea drinker, Bill. But with a name like yours, I hope it’s a sign that somebody has some rights!
What?
If Obama loses because Hillary stuck shivs in his back, that only proves my point about November.
If Hillary loses because Obama’s been sticking shivs in her back, no doubt that’s different. What, she deserves it? It’s the truth? What?
The giggling was because Will opened the discussion by ranting against Obama for proposing to raise the capital gains tax, when “all experts agree” that this hurts revenues (fill in links to economists who say that’s misleading — it’s a temporary effect and then reverses). 15 minutes later, he comes back to the same topic, and that’s when they all laughed. George’s mission was to let you know the Dems would raise your taxes even though they knew it was counterproductive. He knew none on the panel would know enough to contradict him. Yuk, yuk.
Michael Moore has written an interesting piece/letter about why he is for Obama. He said he has not endorsed anyone before.
I see we’re on to the usual morning topic.
Rule 1: No back stabbing.
Rule 2: No front stabbing.
Rule 3: Everyone vote.
link?
hmm this is Monday Scarecrow and I’m wondering did you get those resposes to last week’s question?
They’re just starting to show up on this thread. Not encouraging.
Btw, actually, the last person who should be throwing rocks is Obama, since he’s the one running on not doing so.
But it seems it couldn’t last, which is the point.
It is interesting that the Obama pundocracy, or whatever it’s called, is now saying that Obama HAS to attack Clinton (and he is), that Obama himself has said that in order to survive in Washington, one has to use some of “their” tactics, but when Clinton does, and therefore Obama’s attacks are rationalized, but when Clinton does it she’s divisive and all manner of negative things.
Double standards.
I had gotten an email. I think this would be the link.
Yours,
Michael Moore
MichaelMoore.com
MMFlint AT aol.com
IIRC, when John McCain was a POW, he refused an offer of release from the North Vietnamese unless everyone captured before him was also released, and spent several more years in captivity as a result. This does make him a hero-it does not qualify him to be President. One of the heroes of the Black Hawk Down incident, a Silver Star winner, went to prison for molesting a 12-year-old. War hero? Yes…but no one you’d want in charge of anything else. There is a vast array of reasons-policy reasons-to oppose McCain; but I have to agree with Obama-he would still be better than Bush, IMHO.
‘mornin’, Raven.
Thank you Scarecrow and Elliot.
Heal thyself.
Juno;
Are you trying to incite poo-flinging?
Well, that’s not nice.
It’s very vexatious.
Ah, Elliot @ 125 has found it!
Juno, what do you think about Scarecrow’s prescription for soothing kerfuffle?
1,819 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Thanks for the post,Citizen Scarecrow, I needed that this mornin’ like a sharp stick in the eye before breakfast.
Seriously though,as the fascist cadre left in Washington sets up all out civil war in Iraq and puts EVERYone, Amerikans, Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis, Syrians and dare I say Israelis, in mortal danger, the question bubbles up through my 3 remainin brain cells: “How is Amerika gunna respond militarily when our remainin’ troops and contractors are surrounded and immobilized?” The answer seems to be nuclear…that is, either Israel or the US or both will launch preventive nuclear attacks on Tehran and Damascus. That’s what we’re lookin’ at here folks.
Now, on the domestic political front, since all a this nightmare is part of one grand plot in the right-wing script for the new world, RICHARD MELLON SCAIFE HAS ENDORSED MRS. MCCLINTON!!! If this doesn’t put a stake right through the heart of the bloodless Clinton campaign and wake up the Democratic Party leadership…well, then it’s time to hit the streets of Denver in August and take the fuckin’ country back ricky-tick.
OK all a you McClinton supporters…give me the fuckin’ “liberal” spin on this one??!! And remember, Hillary’s corporate bosses are gettin ready ta nuke most a the Middle East including our troops!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION IF YA DON’T HAVE A CLEAR SHOT!!!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m assuming you’re using “their” to mean Clinton supporters, as though Democrats who support Clinton are some kind of foreign element not welcome here, who are infiltrating or something like that.
It is somehow different when Obama’s supporters criticize Clinton on this site or thread, somehow that is perfectly acceptable, but when Clinton supporters do the same of Obama, we’re “showing up” and are evidence of degradation of the party?
Have I got that right? So attacks on one Democratic candidate are healthy, correct, and acceptable, but criticism of the other is evidence of corrosion, division, and splitting of the party?
Condi’s testosterone-filled, strutting language would not seem intended to calm passions or entice factions to reconcile their conflicting interests. (Behavior outside the experiences of Bush and Cheney to start with.) Which suggests she sees her role at State as an appendage of the DoD, rather than its counterweight.
She delivers the diplomatic finger to Sadr, raised by draft dodging Bush and Cheney. Delivered by a woman, the administration doubles down on its insult, attempting to ensure that its provocation elicits a violent response.
Sadr’s weaker followers may react that way. But a religious soldier of Sadr’s experience, who is successfully frustrating the combined power of the world’s greatest army and its native contingents, won’t be swayed by womanly claims that he’s not “man enough” to fight. The smart ones left at State and DoD know this sort of message won’t get Sadr to fight on their terms. But it will strengthen his determination to resist the American occupation and its native supporters.
As an aside, and as a test of Rice’s taunt, one wonders where Rice, Bush and Cheney would be if their and Sadr’s situations were reversed. My guess is that they’d be scurrying among the buildings and politicians of the Green Zone, looking for more American handouts, not leading a successful opposition in the wilderness.
There it is again:
Criticism of Clinton is so acceptable, it is not considered poo flinging. Responding to it in defense of Clinton or expressing an opinion as to why one thinks Obama can’t win in November is poo flinging.
I’m curious about the double standard is all.
I must tell you that this election cycle has generated no small amount of despair. Democrats are our own weapons of mass destruction. We are. The anger and vitriol (yes, mine, too) is symptomatic of this terrible, shameful campaign. Which is symptomatic of the toxic environment of BushCo that has gone rewarded by virtue of inaction on the part of Dems. The toxicity is contagious and pervasive. It’s here, too. And it’s instructive to note that even the most peace-loving humans are at the end of their tether. So how do we heal ourselves and this country, people? How???
Maybe we should all take a moment and bow down before the glorious omnipotence of Hillary Clinton.
Susan Jacoby has an interesting piece at Truthout about how Americans now will only hear those who echo their own beliefs and have an intolerence for those who express differing viewpoints.
Gotta go enhance the productivity statistics. Thanks for the post, Scarecrow-your combination of wisdom, knowledge, and eloquence is truly a treat, regardless of the content.
See all later.
(poof)
I think you amended the “they’re”. I do not know why as that completely revised his post.
Terms such as “stake through the heart of the bloodless Clinton campaign” is probably not going to win the contest for the best reconciliation statement.
See Elliot at #125.
This is a serious problem folks, and by not addressing it, we’re making McCain the next President. I will blame you/us all. Without mercy.
I’m working on it.
What did I say that was offensive?
Oh, please don’t.
I love Hillary’s imperfections.
It’s actually the Obama movement that has shown a proclivity toward needing to believe their guy is omnipotent (to whit: an Obama supporter holding a sign that read “Obama will fix everything”) and really lashing out at any criticism of him, rejecting it all, denying it all.
This is why I believe Obama can’t win in November: his supproters (and he himself) have put him way too high up on a pedestal while putting Hillary too low on one). Think about it.
Nuclear weapons aren’t bananas that one country sends another a boatload of. Nor does it advance your point to say that China would give Iran nuclear weapons so that it can more oil more the Saudis, Iran’s regional rival. Things just don’t work this way.
i’m a little slow, so i need a clarification –
am i correct that the rules are still: no personal attacks on people here, but politicians are fair game (within the limits of no violence, sexist or racist language, etc)?
or am i behind the times?
thanks.
I think that’s generally true of the human condition. It is a rare person who can see things from the other’s point of view.
What the last 30 or so comments suggest is that many of us are stuck on this problem, yet the conventional wisdom is that the day after the nomination is settled, this mutual anger will dissipate/disappear. Tell me how this happens. Anyone.
How does it work?
Actually, it didn’t revise his post, it rendered it grammatically incomprehensible.
It was merely a homophone mixup, which should have been obvious, as should my intent have been.
Simply replace my mistaken “their” with “they’re.”
And try to stop seeing me as the enemy. I simply think Clinton is a better choice than Obama at this time, just as you think Obama is.
OT, but can we have a little outrage on Tancredo for calling the Pope a “marketer” whose “job description doesn’t include getting involved with American politics?”
I just heard about him saying that. And Howard Dean was almost right in saying that McCain should denounce the remarks. Almost because, Tancredo should step down for insulting all Catholics everywhere!
You are correct. But when strong supporters of either candidate become engaged, we are not always at our best. So I want folks to think about the question I asked — #125.
If Obama’s the nominee, it shouldn’t be a problem since he’s got some skill at unifying people (although I’ve yet to see it, and it’s actually Clinton who’s been able to work with opposition, for which she’s been criticized by those who claim to want unity. It’s all very confusing!).
I know Juno, but do you think that we need to find some common respect and tolerance in closing this rift?
I do.
I can imagine how frustrated you must feel, believe me, and so does everyone else.
But we need to salvage our sense of facing a common enemy (if that is not too strong a word for some) and focus on working together in respectful and appreciative harmony. Would you agree with that much?
Beware, my lord, of jealousy. It is the green-eyed monster that doth mock the meat it feeds on.
Iago has his place among the villains, as does Macbeth and his Lady. Should we focus here on all those carrying the saplings of Birnam Wood over Dunsinane Hill, not which faction they support, a debate we could savor at another place?
it doesn’t.
support has to be earned. it’s not enough to have a D after one’s name.
i though that was clear from the lieberman/lamont campaign?
I think it is troubling that the Pope was on the same stage with the American president, just as I think it’s troubling that Pat Robertson and Falwell and Hobson, et al, mixed it up with him and other pols.
Keep them separate.
Tancredo’s problem is hypocrisy.
The rumors are false; politicians are people. I find McCain a grasping, heartless, shriveled man, but I can’t advocate his end, only that his and Bush’s policies come to an abrupt one.
Who knows? I thought he meant “they’re.” Plus, it made more sense to me. Thank you for telling me what I should have understood. To quote the above: Poof.
i don’t think you are an enemy.
some days i think clinton is.
but all days i think she is less of an enemy than mcsame.
please don’t confuse my opinion of clinton with my opinion of you – the two are not the same.
No, because I think what you mean by common respect and agreement is simply supporting Obama and bashing Clinton.
My frustration is not with Clinton’s likely loss. I don’t see this as a personality thing. My frustration is with Democrats about to make a huge mistake which will cost them the election.
Notice you accuse me of poo flinging, not critics or supporters of Obama. Why the double standard?
I’m not sure why Obama’s supporters think they can attack Clinton the way they do but then accuse Obama critics of poo flinging and inciting division, etc. I don’t really get that. It strikes me as pretty arrogant.
I don’t find it troubling that the Pope gets on stage with the American President. That’s part of the President’s job. Not at all the same thing as meeting with Pat Robertson.
Clinton had her chance. She was the frontrunner, had a huge lead over her competitors, and blew it. She blew it because she hadn’t the character or insight to apologize for her vote on the Iraq war and her continued support for it to mid-2006. She blew it because she never reached out to the netroots. She blew it because she relied on just the endorsements of the party’s establishment. She blew it because she is, was, and remains a DINO. She blew it because she ran on her management capabilities, her “experience”, but showed she couldn’t even run her own campaign well. She blew it because she has stayed in the race even though she and Bill can count and know there is virtually no way she can win. She blew it because she put her own ego and political aspirations ahead of us and the country. She blew it because her only strategy now is to tear down her opponent even though that risks delivering the election to McCain.
These are not things she was forced to do. They are things she chose and they explain why she should never be the Democratic nominee ever.
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Citizen Juno:
“Criticism of Clinton is so acceptable… (r)esponding to it in defense of Clinton or expressing an opinion as to why Obama can’t win in November is poo flinging.”
Oh dear Sister Juno, please awaken slowly from your dream-like state so as not to go into cardiac arrest when you discover that your candidate is NOT a Democrat and that the biggest corporate fascists like Richard Mellon Scaife are backin her. Why in the name of anything left that is true and virtuous would the corporate bosses be backin McClinton if they thought Obama couldn’t beat McCrazy??!!
No Juno, stop right now…I feel your pain…you have been hoodwinked, fooled, conned and psychologically raped by the candidate you backed so completely for the wrong reasons. You backed her because she was a “she” and you thought that automatically that made her a sensitive, caring and “liberal” person…now that you have discovered that she is nothing that she presented herself as stop attacking those of us who continue to try and expose this charlatan. Come home Juno…and stop attackin’ those of us who are you allies in the struggle for equality, liberty and a future for our children!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION, THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND YOU’RE EITHER FOR HUMANITY OR YOU’RE NOT!!
Ah, but was that case not different, wasn’t it? — if you’re dealing with someone who does not follow the rules, but will become a de facto Republican to stay in power, than the usualy rule of supporting whoever wins the Demo primary should not apply.
And surely we don’t equate either B or H with Lieberman? I’m not asking anyone to love the other candidate; just asking how we stop hating them. We’re not even there.
One should never let anyone who has never had a child or trained to be a midwife actually BE a midwife: Condi has never birthed a nation, and never trained to birth a nation. Her training was in how to make surrogate war against the USSR: how to get other people to do her fighting not how to birth a nation.
A GOPer is going to New Orleans? Is McCain hoping to be the excuse Bush needs to declare martial law?
Technically the Pope is a Head of State isn’t he? The Vatican.
my opinion is I wonder what they will do to unify the party when the final tale is told and the elections begin
we do know the party that remains unified for the longest period of time usually loses and this election our country cannot afford to the democrats loosing
My reply was to RevBev.
And it is unfortunate that you see Hillary Clinton as an “enemy.” I do not support him to be the nominee, but I certainly do not see Barack Obama as an enemy!
But you all say it’s the Clinton side that is divisive????
Yup.
Bring’em ON!!…what’s a little er a LOT of blood for McBush/McChaney oil?
Sorry, but I’m a big one for keeping church and State separate.
And I’m a minister’s daughter.
That is not what I mean Juno.
You are choosing to disregard what I am saying.
Do you not wish to have any accord?
I have said nothing about either candidate except that they have campaign signs up in Pittsburgh.
Agent provacateur is more like it.
Yes, I actually see Condi as, right now, playing the role the military “analysts” can’t play… due to the Times article. So I’m thinking they had to send her over there to carry the DoD water.
I wish someone would collect all the remarks Condi has made, which, if they are simply applied to the US would show how poorly this administration has followed democratic principles at home or abroad. So many times her words simply boomerang back at the administration! I doubt this will be done, because who but an academic needing tenure could stomach it? (and likely it’s a reason she’d never run for office… too much to throw at her)
Sigh…. Will we ever get our country back?
Wow.
This is the headline at Reuters
:0===|
Well that’s just fine and dandy, but the reality is, the Pope IS the head of an official “State”…one that has been recognized by more than a few governments for more than a few years. So there are exceptions to a very legitimate wish to keep that separation between church and state…separate.
Still not addressing the substance of either post but rather engaging in some sill tit for tat to criticize me.
It was a grammatical error!
cripes.
Eleanor Holmes Norton is here at the lake in the new thread. Join us.
I don’t see how it’s helpful or respectful to assume that those who disagree with you have been conned. I’ve asked that people respect each other, even as they disagree, and I don’t see why anyone should be exempt.
There it is…again.
Support of Clinton is provocative.
good grief.
But I’m the provocateur and poo flinger here, dontcha know, even though I’ve done neither.
Basically, what China is doing is turning a blind eye to the governments it deals with. If they are corrupt, repressive, China doesn’t care. It works out deals so that it can get its hands on their commodities. It doesn’t need to barter nuclear weapons to do this. It would not do so outside of its strategic sphere of influence since it could not back up Iran if it wanted to. Giving nuclear weapons would make China a pariah among nations and would be about the only thing that could cause a worldwide alliance against them. And why would they do this when they can accomplish their goals by far less drastic means?
Winning hearts and minds?…he he! Yes we all feel the pain. Most of it is cummin’ from Republicans war on America. lol
LOL, Juno …
Please remember Rule Number 5. ;~D
I wanna know why a so called Soviet Studies Scholar somehow missed the lessons of The Battle of Stalingrad
not my rule.
you know the joke that bill clinton was the best republican president since ike?
i’ll stop hating the clintons when they renounce the rendition program begun in bill clinton’s administration. i’ll stop hating them when they show some compassion for the iraqi people – hundreds of thousands of whom were killed by the policies of bill clinton’s administration. i’ll stop hating them for how much democracy and self determination has been harmed in the world (to say nothing of economic hardship created) by an imposed and fucked up trade policy undertaken by the bill clinton administration….. the list goes on and on – banking deregulation, media consolidation….
i’ll vote for senator clinton, i’ll support her bid for the presidency – but only as a way to keep mcsame out.
why do you insist i must do something more than that?
agent provacateur
I’m for keeping it separate too. I don’t even have a religion. Meeting with religious leaders is fine. I mean, of course the President should meet the Pope when he comes to America. It’s when they start writing policy or the President starts pandering to voting blocs that things get ugly.
It puts a lot of uncomfortable questions out there when this President gets on stage with the Pope, and not just the separation of Church and State.
There was not a grammatical error until you wanted to correct an error that was not there. Talk about “nit”; the content got lost when you picked an illusory straw man. Think about it. Your needless correction was truly an attempt to change the meaning.
May I remind you this post was not about Obama/Clinton. However, within a few comments after you entered the conversation, it became the main topic of the thread. Many here are strong advocates of their candidates, but this post is not the forum for fighting it out.
I want no more of this. Everyone back off and let it go. Go vote.
I won’t insist you do anything, even that.
Scarecrow:
We are at a fissionable point in our politics and history as a nation…there is NO MIDDLE GROUND!! I will NOT stop speakin’ the unvarnished truth just because those who have backed the instruments of evil don’t have the courage and intellectual honesty to acknowledge their mistake. Remember, it is not Mrs. McClinton’s DEMOCRATIC opponents who threaten a Democratic vistory in November…it is her supporters who must be called to realty and held to account.
Tough love is what these folks need…so don’t be callin’ ME out for holdin’ their sensitive feet ta the heat!!
So it would seem. Unseemly as that is.
My bad, my veeeeery bad.
Hee Haw!!
Thank you, karnak, for understanding …
thanks, then we’re good. i’m sick of this topic too.
True, but you’re applying the wrong standard.
My first post was IN RESPONSE to a post attacking Clinton. To infer that it is I who led this thread astray is disingenuous.
The reason it then took off is because people jumped on ME, seeing a Clinton supporter in their midst. Eek.
As I said, all is well and beautiful when the criticism is one-sided and directed at Clinton; no poo flinging or provocation then.
But simply respond to it, and you’ve caused a bruhaha.
Seems rather unfair!
Bush still seems determined to turn Iraq over to Iran.
If Al Sadr wins, he is powerful enough and distrustful of foreigners enough to keep the Iranians out. Otherwise, once we eventually leave (for whatever reason), Iran will be the power broker in Iraq.
Rule Number 5:
Don’t take yourself too seriously. There are no other rules.
What????
I mixed up a homophone and wrote “their” instead of “they’re”.
I have acknowledged the error. I have suggested you re-read my original post replacing THEY’RE with “Their”, in other words simply undoing my error.
Instead, you want to insist I was trying to change some meaning.
Well, wrong. And you are the one diverting from the content of what that poster was saying to making it about me having some nefarious intent to change his meaning.
Egads.
“They’re showing up…” Noun. They’re. The THINGS are showing up..
Not sure how I’m changing that meaning!
At any rate, seems one cannot acknowledge a simple grammatical error without being accused of having some ulterior motive.
That is ridiculous.
Scarecrow:
I didn’t say it, but your post–yes, the topic on which the commenting strayed from, was thoughtful and incredibly depressing. Mainly because we are witnessing, ad nauseum, this administration’s complete inability to comprehend how to interact with people in a different part of the world. And one that will have so much impact in the next 20 years. (Understatement). I know the economy is topic A to most Americans these days, and that’s not surprising, but I fear more about the impacts of our total and complete screw-ups in the Middle East. I’ve been reading British history again (bad move) about their efforts in “Arabia”…chilling.
I apologize to all if this seems OT, but allow me to explain more fully…
Agent provocateur
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia – Cite This Source
Traditionally, an agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for “inciting agent”) is a person employed by the police or other law enforcement body to act undercover and entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act. More generally, the term may refer to person or group who provokes another to perform a wrong or rash action, the deliberate purpose being to incite wider conflict or harm.
Common usage
An agent provocateur is often a police officer who encourages suspects to carry out a crime under conditions where evidence can be obtained; or who suggests the commission of a crime to another, in hopes he will go along with the suggestion, so he may be convicted of the crime. These are sometimes called sting operations.
One common use of Agents provocateurs is to investigate consensual or “victimless” crimes; since each participant in such crimes are willing participants, it is often difficult for the authorities to discover such crimes without the use of undercover agents.
Agents provocateurs are also used against political opponents. Here, it has been documented that provocateurs deliberately carry out or seek to incite counter-productive or ineffective acts, in order to foster public disdain for the group and provide a pretext for aggression against the group; and to worsen the punishments its members are liable for (see Red-baiting).
if you are referring to your comment at 106, i think you are quite wrong (and scarecrow is correct).
you responded to an attack on clinton with an attack on people here.
there is a difference.
attacking pols is ok. attacking their supporters (if there are any supporters here) is not ok. do you see the difference?
And since it would seem that Clinton supporters at FDL are considered to be agent provocateurs, the conclusion must be that they are not welcome and that FDL only wants like-minded people, namely Barack Obama supporters.
That is unfortunate.
1,819 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Juno:
People here, no matter who they back in the Democratic Party primary, normally don’t whine when someone pricks ‘em with the arrow of truth. We are at a political crisis point and the method that the fascists have used to succeed in democracies is to split the contests into thirds…runnin’ and backin’ third party candidates or splittin the anti-fascist opposition and backin the candidate that appeals to them for support (usually money). This way the fascist bosses get 2 candidates against one or destroy the unity of the anti-fascist party so that a mobilized minority can win at the ballot box or make it close enough to steal. This has been goin’ on since 1968 with great success…see recent Minnesota politics. This strategy actually got a professional wrestler elected governor and split the Democratic Party vote 3 way in the next 2 governor races and got the fascist elected.
Wake up Juno…the candidate you are backin’ could give a shit less about you, me or our families and friends and couldn’t give a shit less if John McCain is elected.
In fact, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if McClinton runs as McCrazy’s VP…then she will be President when he croaks.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T WHINE!!
Ya know, martha, I didn’t start this post until about 11:30 p.m. last night, finished about 3:00 a.m. I kept delaying, looking for another topic. I knew it was depressing and I didn’t want to write about it, even though it was staring me in the face.
I thought about doing something on the campaign — there was lots of fodder from this weekend’s candidate appearances, but I wanted to avoid exactly what has happened in this thread — which I find even more depressing. It seems we cannot escape it.
Next Friday, I may limit myself to Cindy McCain’s favorite recipes.
I attacked no one.
I used an argument put up here and turned it around to apply it to Obama.
That is not an attack on anyone.
I have not accused anyone of “poo flinging” or being an “agent provovateru” and would even argue that I have personally be targeted for attack, including drilling me over a simply grammatical error.
I’m not sure how you see my asking if Obama’s calling McCain a hero is praising him and cheerleading him in response to a post accusing Hillary Clinton of doing the same is a personal attack on anyone. But as I’ve noted, there is no lack of double standards on the Obama side of things (or is that a personal attack?).
I think we have to understand that Juno would hold the view that Nancy Kerrigan tried to break a mallett belonging to Tanya Harding by assaulting it with her knee.
Citizen Selise:
A-MEN…I bow to your rehtorical skills and compassion…you had the last word. Good job.
Not true. As selise stated earlier, “please do not incite”. But you can certainly stump for who you like. In my own case I have not made up my mind even yet.
I do believe that Hillary is damaging herself by wasting her time attacking Obama, but I also believe her handlers are giving her bad advice.
To borrow a way of looking at the law and facts one might expect to come from the Bush DOJ’s Civil Rights [sic] Division.
Holy crap! I went away for a while and when I came back, discovered this is still raging. Scarecrow (if you’re still here), I would submit that to bypass/submerge exchanges like this forces the rumble underground. Seismic activity. Far more dangerous than some level of verbally duking it out (albeit at risk of becoming Kos-like). Or not. I dunno. My deep and abiding concern is that if we can’t heal rifts here, in microcosm, how in the world will we ever heal the Dem party and, by extension, the world community that has become a toxic waste repository from all the vitriol.
How do we heal ourselves? Alice B. Toklas brownies? (You go, Cindy.)
Citizen Crosstimbers:
ROFLMAO!!! Game set and match, friend!
Thank you, karnak.
I am chagrined and will sin no more.
I was not inciting anything, any more than Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson.
You may have your opinion, but, as you do not know me, and have not, obviiously, read or paid attention to any of my comments in the past, I am sorely perplexed, that you would not even give me the benefit of hearing my honest apology.
If you are suggesting that any thought that ‘the people’ may yet have to deal with what is going on is ‘off the table’, then we must rely soley on the ‘wisdom’ of our masters in ALL matters.
A sad state for a people who would seek ‘freedom and justice’ only so long as it did not discomfit them.
Are we mice or are we full-fledged human beings who have the fundamental responsibility to act when all things demand such action?
Or dare we not even think that such a fate may fall to us, by virtue of our exceptionalism?
no, juno – that’s not what you did. your comment was about obama supporters not obama. here is your comment:
do you see what i’m trying to say now?
we could all work on showing more respect to our fellow commenters… the reason i’m pushing this with you is that you don’t seem to see the difference between attacking a politician and attacking someone on the thread. i thought it might be worthwhile to try to explain.
You’d be wrong.
I think Kerrigan was attacked and a crime perpetrated on her, unprovoked, unwarranted.
I think a better analogy would be that Kerrigan was provoking her attackers by reacting to the attack and that she should have just stayed silent and urged the powers that be to say and do nothing.
That help?
I feel your pain!
Hey, my quote for the day comes from OF ALL PLACES, the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal:
” The landmark political fact of our time is the replacement of our middle class republic by a plutocracy. If some candidate has a scheme to reverse this trend, they’ve got my vote, whether they prefer Courvoisier or beer bongs spiked with cough syrup. I don’t care whether they enjoy my books, or would rather have every scrap of paper bearing my writing loaded into a C-47 and dumped into Lake Michigan. If it will help restore the land of relative equality I was born it, I’ll fly the plane myself.”
–Thomas Frank, in an editorial (author of What’s the Matter with Kansas)
http://online.wsj.com/article/…..side_today
i don’t think anyone here doubts the need to act.
but not all acts are of equal utility or equal morality.
Amen, selise, and thank you for your gentle reminder to me much earlier in this thread.
For what it is worth
selise, I’m certainly getting lectures today, but I appreciate the kindliness of yours, and I hope you understand that I agree with you, just not communicating very well today, I guess.
Can’t spell either.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is how healing looks.
Yes, you’re trying to use semantics to make a point.
Sorry, but I’ve seen Obama’s supporters use this Clinton-praising-McCain thing a lot. That I’m not allowed to notice that, that to do so is some kind of personal attack, to say that it is my opinion that they have the incorrect interpretation is bogus.
Are you saying we shouldn’t have urged Bush supporters to recognize that their interpretation of Gore’s Internet comment was wrong because that would have been a personal attack?
And do you really not see the piling up on me, I’m sure for no reason other than I am not supporting Obama right now?
I’m poo flinging, I’m an agent provocateur, I think Nancy Kerrigan made the attack in her occur…should I list them all?
So if I say Obama agrees with Rev. Wright on any one of his controversial comments, you can’t accuse me of seeing it because I support Clinton, accuse me of deliberately pushing a political and bogus point for political purposes, and you can’t extrapolate on that by giving me your opinion on the issue because that would be a personal attack on me???
Seriously?
So no countering opinions here. Seems strange.
Well, barbara, I’m trying. Some days I’m very trying.
I have not attacked anyone on the thread.
Scarecrow,
I’ve read your reports and other indications that Iran has sold out the Mahdi Army with alarm. If the Bagdad Army has taken control of Basra this would indicate that it is true. Then Secretary Rice is cheerleading on the wiping out million more Iraqis. The Mahdi Army can’t go to the ground since it is an Arab urban based insurgency. Sadr City will be bombed flat.
If two million Iraqis are killed and no one sees or cares, it does not matter to America. It is just an unreported statistic.
I have read your comments in the past, and I don’t have any specific disagreements with anything you say.
My criticism has only to do with the forum in which this is presented. It is certain (in my mind at least) everyone who posts here is on a list somewhere in an NSA file. In my own case they probably know more about me than I could ever possibly remember or relate. I don’t care.
But I also know that there are weak minded people out there (as evidenced by George being elected twice!) who would take subtle suggestions and attempt to define their own reality of what they think it means.
When you post here, be mindful of your audience. There are some smart connected people who read this blog, but not everyone is innocent. Don’t tell everything you know.
I mean’t no disrespect.
Ahhhh, I see it’s just another lovely Monday morning at the Lake.
“Thick as a Brick” is great Jethro Tull classic of the progressive rock genre, understatement and a missive of missed points.
I’d like to keep it that way. Moreover, several folks have attacked you, and continue to do so.
Every personal attack on another commenter is unacceptable and grounds for having your comment removed. If you persist, you can be banned.
How many times do we have to say this, before we close down all comments? Everyone back off, and a few apologies would be helpful.
Ya see? Some people are trying to hear each other. We can’t do that when we’re shouting. It doesn’t mean one must give up. It just means taking stock of the argument. And quite possibly, approaching it from a different angle.
What say we all put ourselves on pause (as opposed to Stop)? Back off half a step. Evaluate. The pivotal question in a toxic tango often is: “What is my part in this?” That’s a self-examination piece that absolutely must happen. It’s not about caving or admitting defeat. It’s about honesty. And btw, pups, I’m not suggesting anything I don’t need to do myself. Often. More often than I do.
imo, there is no problem here… just a discussion…
Good morning RBG! It’s gorgeous here today (finally), so I refuse to be too crabby.
Thank you, karnak and I do, truly, appreciate this comment and respect you greatly for making the gesture of clarification and understanding; equally, I reach out my hand to you in friendship and even greater respect.
David
I love you and we haven’t even met!
imo, the way to do that is to attack the argument – not the person.
not that i always follow my own advice.
i’m sorry i haven’t been able to explain the difference to you. i really do think it would help if i could.
Good morning, RBG, ’tis always a pleasure to ’see’ you, your presence doth, all ways, calm and soothe the less ruly impulse …
Back at ‘cha! I think we’re neighbors, sort of…Cheesehead checking in. I worked in the yard this weekend (finally), found a nest of baby bunnies (OMG–adorable, even though I’ll curse them in about 3 weeks), and a frog who scared the life out of me. And it’s supposed to be 78 today. What’s not to like?
is that a serious threat?
Perhaps it would be beneficial to think of comments as a conversation with the author of the post.
Yo, Cheesehead! I live in the land of 10,000 defeated sports teams! The bunnies are decimating our shrubbery and newly-emerging plants (all of which are enclosed by wire fences, which bunnies simply laugh at on their way over and into the gardens). It was already in the 60s when I got up (early). But FYI, rain is on the way, which means you’ll get it next.
That depends. Your efforts are appreciated.
egregious. Too late, I’m off to work. I leave the fate of the Republic in your and selise’ capable hands.
Peace be with you.
Yeah, the weathergeeks say rain tomorrow. Normally, I’m immune to rabbit cuteness given their ability to decimate my garden. But tiny babies (eyes open, ears twitching, nose scrunching)…too much.
thanks, and with you.
I didn’t attack the person, and if a deliberately bad interpretation becomes the talking point among supporters, then it is perfectly fair game to say so.
I’ve seen “Clinton supporters” here plenty of times. Campaigns do take on cultures. I wouldn’t condone Clinton supporter parroting a BS point about Obama either, and I’d say so. That would not be a personal attack. It would be a criticism of a cultural point that has taken hold, wrongly, in a campaign.
That point IS a common and repeated point among Obama’s supporters. To say that it is therefore off limits to note that is disingenuous.
Thank you for writing these complex posts for us Scarecrow. They obviously take a great deal of time and thought to prepare. I hope we are showing sufficient respect for your work.
Right, but I have not attacked anyone personally. I am being attacked personally (now I’m apparently thick as a brick), yet I do feel the burden of having caused some kerfluffle has been put on me, and my only point is that it isn’t due to anything I’ve said, per se, but I think rather that I support/defend Clinton and have criticized Obama and THAT is what is unacceptable here.
There simply are no personal attacks on anyone from me. Even “Obama supporters” is not a personal attack but rather a comment on the general culture.
My point, again, is that I think there are double standards applied here.
If not familiar with Thick as a Brick you should not assume it is a ‘personal attack.’ A+B does not always lead to C
And where did Norske’s ‘air conditioner’ comment go anyway?
Hi Scarecrow, It’s an excellent post on a very important topic, and much appreciated.
Juno,
Calling Obama supporters “cultists” is indeed a direct attack on posters here.
-G
Calling people supporting Obama “Rovian” is indeed directly attacking people here.
As a point of fact a few days ago you mentioned that your point was to bring Obama supporters back to reality or something very akin to that. teaching a lesson.
By the way, have you heard that Ed Rendell had kind words for Louis Farrakhan at one point and it is on video tape?
Shall we fire up the Sen. Clinton approved “reject and denounce” calls?
-G
No, it isn’t.
Again, noting a cult mentality among his supporters, which MANY have done – I am certainly not alone – is NOT a personal attack. I said it about Bush supporters too because it worried me, a lot, because such thinking is dangerous and leads to bad choices, and that affects all of us.
A personal attack is an ad hominem that is personal, gratuitious, and unrelated to the topic at hand, Ie: calling a person stupid (versus “incorrect” and then explaining why). Referring to a person as “thick as a brick” is a personal attack on that individual and has no bearing on any actual political issue.
A personal attack singles out the individual.
I have no problem with people commenting on the tenor of any campaign, and certainly the supporters of a candidate lend heavily to creating that tenor, do they not?
This is a red herring issue (ironically meant to “attack” me).
I’m not sure why it should be okay for Obama supporters to perpetuate a false interpretation of something Clinton said but NOT okay to call them on it.
I happen to think it should be. I also think Clinton supporters should be called on any groupthink, false points as well.
well, i’ve gotten more coffee, so if you want to give this one more try… here goes.
your response to the comment at 100:
was the following:
comment 100 had something bad to say about clinton – not clinton’s supporters.
comment 106, on the other hand, did say something bad about obama supporters – that they were like bush supporters. i considered this a verbal attack and i’m not even much of an obama supporter.
to illustrate, i’ll try some alternative ways you might challenge the content of the comment at 100…
1) i don’t hear it that way. what specifically do you hear that you think justifies calling her a cheerleader?
2) hasn’t obama also made similar remarks?
… i’m sure you could come up with something better than these examples… the point i’m trying to make (again) is that if you make the argument on the merits – the outcome might be a good one.
but if you make the argument based on the premise that the people who disagree with you have something wrong with either their hearing or their comprehension – how does that further a constructive discussion?
the fact is that it doesn’t. it’s an attack on the people who disagree instead of an attack on what they are saying.
Just read in my newspaper that the Sadr militia group of shia is opposed by the Badr militia group of shia. The Badr group supports Maliki and is credited with “joining the government”- whereas the Sadr group is not so credited (even though they hold 30 of the 275 seats in Parliament). The article doesn’t make clear what divides the two groups- but one represen
No, referring to tactics and style as “Rovian” is not a personal attack if they are.
I’ve seen plenty of Obama supporters accuse Clinton and her camp of using Rovian tactics as well.
If I use one, I’m not sure why you think I shouldn’t be called on it.
What you should not do, and I should not do, is call anyone stupid or ugly or thick as a brick or anything like that. THAT is a personal attack.
Movements create cultures and groupthink. To criticize problems one sees in that culture and groupthink is NOT personally attacking individuals.
Personally, I should not wish to see Juno leave.
When someone leaves, owing to misunderstanding or ill-will, it is my belief that we are all diminished …
I still miss Kiddo and Lahoma very much.
Realizing that not only may I sometimes have a day when I’m expressing myself poorly if not badly, but also trusting that my friends will point this out as gently as possible, I am not certain we benefit ourselves or our larger goals by narrowing the the range of ‘acceptable’ discourse.
That said, we have only ourselves to blame, in general and in particular.
When it comes to ‘culprits’, I name myself first.
I know myself well-enough to ‘know’ that I may be dense, obtuse and even not very pleasant, all before lunch.
However, the ‘rules’ of engagement must have some definition, let us therefore err on the side of caution (when appropriate) compassion (always appropriate) and common sense (uncommon as that may be).
At least we can try.
Hmm
The second half of my comment disappeared…At any rate- it’s not easy to keep the players straight in Iraq- let alone become familiar with their various agendas…
Iraq appears to be very fragmented and apparently will require some coalition building before there is any hope of peace…We seem to be a long ways away from that..
It might help when the US withdraws- but that’s probably not a panacea either.
Condi to Sadr: “Bring it on!”.
Easy to say when it’s somebody elses’ kid that’s got to die!
The administrations pathetic laissez faire attitude towards economics is the same as their foreign policy approach. All it is is an excuse and French word for “Lazy”
I see, Sen. Clinton’s supporters are just enthusiastic believers in her capacities to lead, Obama supporters are doe-eye cultists bamboozled by a neophyte African-American.
Gotcha.
-G
I’m sorry, but when a movement takes up a talking point, to note it is not a personal attack, and to call it one is nothing more than an attempt to shut someone up.
Again, I’ve seen that point repeated frequently here by Obama supporters. So they, as a group, seem to think it’s okay, but I can’t call them on it as a group?
Sorry, I will.
What I will not do is say, RevDeb, you are thick as a brick and an agent provocateur and you are trying to do this that and the other thing.” THAT is personal.
I will say “This is a common specious point repeated by Obama supporters.”
That is not personal.
(Btw, yesterday I made some comment, which I cannot recall right now, and RevDeb replied by saying, You would think so – you know the tone.Crosstimbers seems to actually target me for attacks just out of hatred. THAT is personal. I just think there are double standards over there, and this is another example).
I will continue to comment on cultural phenomenon as I see it. What I will not do is target any individual or attack them personally, and I have not done so.
“Referring to a person as “thick as a brick” is a personal attack on that individual and has no bearing on any actual political issue.”
Excuse me, but it is incorrect that I referred to anyone as thick as a brick.
Does one attack by noting inaccuracies? That is a double-standard.
what happened to Kid and Lahoma?
Ladies.
Gentlemen.
Do.Not.Feed.
Cole, it appears the Maliki wing which I think is affiliated with the Dawa Party and the Al Hakim wing which is affiliated with the Badr Corps are both in political alignment.
Those two groups also appear to have stronger historical ties to Iran.
The Sadrists, who were followers of Moqtadas father and then of his to some degree seem to be more nationalist.
-G
Racism against Sen. Obama is a common and specious point used by Sen. Clinton’s supporters.
Nothing personal.
-G
I’m not too excited about either dem candidate. We are faced with big problems and neither seems to have come to the table with great solutions. I see them as two peas in a pod on the issues. I’ll vote for the nominee however.
Kiddo and Jane had what I choose to term a kerfluffle, a deliberate ‘misunderstanding’ which got too, too ridiculous, and Kiddo left, Lahoma visited us a few times but eventually withdrew as well …
i think you are wrong. can you point to anything i’ve written that you think is an attempt to shut you up, implies i think you should “shut up” or not voice your challenges?
p.s. that was an attempt to challenge your statement without attacking you.
imo – sandbagged, scapegoated, called a troll and hounded from the threads.
for me it was the worse day ever here. still makes me feel sick to think about it.
very well.
just like to give the benefit of the doubt – as i would like it to be given to me.
Juno and Selise,
I want both to know that I see you both as intelligent and fair people.
I was here earlier but had to leave to take my son to school.
I’ve caught up on the comments and have to say it was probably better for me not to be here.
I don’t think either of you are poo flinging. I think you are both passionate and have a sincere desire for dialogure.
I cannot say that for everyone commenting.
See ya all downstream.
and hugs….to both.
Seriously EPU’d here but I don’t have an answer. What I see is the party structure heavily favours the corporate agenda whereas the traditional base wants corporate influence in the party to be gone. Both Obama and Clinton are corporate beasts and will do little or nothing to change the party structure or its platform. At some point in the future I see a tremendous struggle for control of the party and its agenda between the bosses and the workers.
Hmm- wikipedia says that Sadr’s father was the leader of the Dawa group- but pulled support when Saddam outlawed the party..members have apparently hid out in Iran for decades. They are anti secular apparently…
Al-Dawa was formed in 1957[citation needed] (some say 1967[2]) by a group of Shi’ite leaders including Mohammed Salih Al-Adeeb, Sayid Murtadha Alaskary, Abdul Sahib Dukheil, Sayid Mohammed Mahdi Al-Hakim, Sayid Mohammed Baqir Al-Hakim, Mohammed Sadiq Al-Qamoosee and Sayid Talib Al-Rafa’ee. Their aim was to create a party and a movement which would promote Islamic values and ethics, political awareness, combat secularism and communism, and create an Islamic state in Iraq.[3] This came at a time when there was widespread ignorance about religion, and politics in Iraq was dominated by secularist Arab nationalist and socialist ideas. Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr – who was widely recognised as a leading philosopher, theologian and political theorist – quickly emerged as the leading member. It was he who laid out the foundations for the party and its political ideology, based on Wilayat Al-Umma (Governance of the people). A “twin” Islamic Dawa Party was also founded in Lebanon by clerics who had studied in Najaf and supported Muhammad Baqr al-Sadr’s vision of a resurgent Islam.
Al-Dawa gained strength in the 1970s recruiting from among the Shia ulama and youth.[4] It waged an armed campaign against the Iraqi Ba’thist government which initiated a crackdown on Shi’a political activism, driven in part by the secular nature of the Ba’thist ideology and in part by their view of a politicized Shi’a as a threat to the stability of the regime. During the 1970s, the government shutdown the Shi’a journal Risalat al-Islam and closed several religious educational institutions. The government passed a law obligating Iraqi students of the hawza to undertake national military service. The Ba’thists then began specifically targeting al-Da’wa members, arresting and imprisoning them from 1972 onwards. In 1973 someone killed the alleged head of al-Da’wa’s Baghdad branch in prison. In 1974 75 al-Da’wa members were arrested and sentenced to death by the Ba’thist revolutionary court.[5] In 1975 the government canceled the annual procession from Najaf to Karbala, known as marad al-ras. Although subject to repressive measures throughout the 1970s, large-scale opposition to the government by al-Da’wa goes back to the Safar Intifada of February 1977. Despite the government’s ban on the celebration of marad al-ras, al-Da’wa organized the procession in 1977. They were subsequently attacked by police.[6] After this period it also interacted with the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the future spiritual leader of Iran, during his exile in Najaf in Iraq.
I agree on that.
Amen.
-G
Selise carries much more credibility with me, because she’s been around these parts for a long time. Juno showed up very recently by comparison. Spends a lot of time on Clinton support.
I’m not sure- but it appears that Malaki is a member of the Dawa group…
Shit- this is confusing.
I’ve gotta find a good book and figure this out. Any suggestions?
Hmm- wikipedia says that Sadr’s father was the leader of the Dawa group- but pulled support when Saddam outlawed the party..members have apparently hid out in Iran for decades. They are anti secular apparently…
I had never read that Sadr’s father was deeply involved with the Dawa Party. Show’s you how much of a puzzle it is to unravel.
So, I guess in order to remain in Iraq Papa Sadr cut ties with Dawa who then sought exile in Iran.
Papa Sadr must have gotten on Saddam’s bad side eventually in order to get killed in 1999, I think.
Still, I find it very interesting that the US is allying itself with the parties that seem most firmly in the Iranian corner.
Then again the Israelis and the US have for years had secret dealings.
Iran/Contra anyone?
-G
It would seem that if supporters of the two respective candidates would like to have a discussion, then they need some members of the “opposition” around to discuss with…
Yeah, Maliki is affiliated with Dawa and the Hakims are affiliated with SIIC(Used to be SCIRI-Supreme Council for the Islamic Republic in Iraq) and the SIIC military wing is the Badr Corps.
-G
The elder Hakim is ill with cancer and, shock and surprise, his son is getting groomed to take over!
-G
thanks for the support… but really – think we’re all on the same side here. even when we do are best to make it look otherwise. *g*
No.
Wrong.
Hyperbole.
Yeah- that’s what is sounds like- but Papa Sadr was apparently closely tied with the growing anti-secularist movement in Iran after the Shah got the shit kicked out of him—and Komeini (way off on the spelling) was hiding in IRAQ during that period…so apparently these shia fundamentalist groups have been mutually supporting one another across the borders of the two countries for decades- but from time to time get pissed off at each other?
Here’s a brief Iraqi History that might help:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/c…..e_2516.jsp
Well, looks like Chimpy and friends have assisted in a nice merger.
In regards to Iran, it is funny to hear the war mongers saying ‘Iran has all that oil, why would they need a nuke program’ when the US was assisting the Shah to build a nuke program decades ago.
-G
Not sure what length of time here has to do with credibility, and I find this post ironic since the discussion is personal attacks.
However, I do not spend a lot of time on Clinton support. I spend a lot of time on trying to inject some reality into the Obama side since I think he’s going to be the Dem nominee and believe that the higher up on a pedestal he’s put, the likelier it is he’s going to take a long, hard fall. In fact, I’d call it inevitable since cracks and flaws are glaring in people who’ve been treated like messiahs.
It’s not about Clinton or Obama for me. It’s about winning in November, and I see Democrats making enormous mistakes and setting themselves up for failure.
So the Shah was going to have nukes? Funny- sort of. Of course the western countries are OK with Iran having nuclear power capability as long as they don’t process the fuel themselves- as I understand it. Was the Shah going to be allowed to enrich uranium?
The Obama campaign has a website, and would probably like to have your
insight, why not share some of your comments with them and bypass the
small fry here?
Thanks- I’ll check it out-
selise, not only do you ‘do’ so many important things, informing us as to meetings and critically analyzing reams of data, but your humor and humanity gently remind us of truths which we sometimes forget in the ‘heat’ of the moment…
I was not present for the Kiddo fiasco, but going back and reading the threads I was astonded, and even ashamed.
But towards you I feel only great respect and appreciation.
You are consistently thoughtful and understanding, your sensibilities are indispensible to the rest of us.
I know that’s not fair, but it is the truth.
Once, long ago, when I thought you were leaving, I could not believe it, and am grateful, beyond words, that you did not.
I doff my thinking (and feeling) cap to you.
David
If memory serves I think the Shah was in line for nuclear power plants, not weapons. Small difference since breeder reactors can make fissionable material for weapons. I’d have to research the subject in depth to get a real feel for it.
Lucky us!
Thanks.
Good read.
-G
Well, he was being assisted in a civilian nuke program. Even though he was pro-western I don’t think anyone wanted to help Iran get a nuclear bomb. Even the King of the Peacock Throne wasn’t trusted that much.
-G
Concluding paragraphs of the piece Hackworth linked to:
Iraq’s new ruling class has much to deal with – corruption, terrorism, economic breakdown (including one of the highest levels of public debt in the world), and foreign occupation. To add to its misfortune, the Iraqi people have high expectation of their new rulers. Indeed, many participated in the elections under the impression that their problems would be resolved if properly elected officials were to assume power. This may prove to be the undoing of the religious class, for not only are Iraq’s problems virtually irresolvable, but much of the country’s new political class is clueless as to what public office actually entails.
Thus, just as radical politics emerged in reaction to the social injustice of the monarchy, and as religious politics arose from the injustices committed in the name of radicalism, a new politics can be expected to develop from Iraq’s post-invasion trauma. In the meantime, though, secularism in Iraq has reached its end; for now and for the foreseeable future, but perhaps not – if modern Iraqi history, and the experience of marad al-ras is any guide – for all time.
It seems that one of the biggest problems in the Middle East is the never ending meddling from the outside.
I wonder how many Arab nations would have had their own revolutions and turned out to be something like Turkey?
-G
yep.
Imperialism/Colonialism/Proselytizing…
we want their treasures no matter the cost to the people who live there.
To the lurkin’ Moderator: How about a little more censorship of the agent provacateurs and a little less washin’ of the comments of loyal Amerikans? I can’t believe you scrubbed my last post!! Now I know where oklahomakiddo went…I guess. Shit this used ta be one place where speech was free. We’re losin’ more than an election folks.
In 1920 Lord Balfour unknowingly made peace in the Middle East a near impossibility.
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
FDL has instituted stealth censorship…why are people like oklahomakiddo run outta this space and agent provocateurs for Mrs. McClinton are given free reign.
That’s sure the history. There has seemingly been no stability there since the fall of the Ottoman Empire- and the Ottomans had their problems too.
It isn’t clear how many of these countries get out of the current morass of religion and chaos….”just leave em alone” seems like a tempting approach- but it seems simple minded to think that it’s a solution.
How unknowing was he, really???????
ahem.
It’s a long standing policy here that you are welcome to make your point but insulting other commenters may result in your comment being removed from the thread.
Quite the contrary. He was very consciously trying to create a countervailing force in the area, i.e., “create an Ulster among a sea of hostile Arabs”, in order to leverage British forces. The Brits used that tactic all over the world, and it will be centuries before all of those animosities are resolved.
It would be a shame to see the integrity of this place ripped assunder by a primary battle that’s probably all over anyway…
Juno, if you are not already a politician, you should consider it. You certainly have a talent for garrulousness.
It is not just the integrity of this place that will go from the HRC
onslaught, it will become the new lost cause for the dead end boomers
to inflict on society at large, they will be throwing walkers at the
“traitors” years from now.
This might turn out to be the never-ending thread …………………….
I wish I could say I was in stitches, doubled over with laughter, but…
If we’re feeling this much agro and anger towards each other,who mostly, ‘agree’, with so little angst, how in hell are we going to convince the many ‘that they already agree with us’?
If that is not too provocative a question?
Appreciate your humor.
Seems singularly lacking in this thread.
Oh, that Rule Number 5 ….
Citizen RBG: What the fuck is “insulting other commenters”…it would appear that there seems ta be a double standard? My comment was a syllogism and did NOT mention Juno by name or pronoun. Let the readers judge if my response to Juno was a personal insult or if the shoe jest got too tight. When you start chosin’ whose comments are “insulting” and whose are ok ya better stroke that brush over a lotta ground here.
This action by you is more than disappointing…
The reality of a McCain presidency has to be the antidote, no guarantee
that it will be percieved though. Too bad, much is at stake and ambition
plays for keeps.
Your syllogisms are often verbose but seldom garrulous.
For the record, your comment directly addressed another commenter and will not appear in the thread.
These are not new policies. Let’s turn the flames on those who truly warrant the focus.
Too true, all of it.
RGB: I very much appreciate the moderation here. There are many other places (not all of them political) that I can’t stand for lack of moderation.
Tuesday, Apr. 22, 2008
10 am – Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
To hold hearings to examine the future of the internet. The hearing will focus on developing applications, consumer expectations, and network operation.
Witnesses:
Ms. Justine Bateman, Actress / Writer / Producer
Ms. Michele Combs, Vice President of Communications, Christian Coalition of America
Professor Lawrence Lessig, Stanford Law School
Mr. Kyle McSlarrow, President and CEO, National Cable & Telecommunications Association
Mr. Patric Verrone, President, Writers Guild of America, West
Dr. Robert Hahn, Executive Director, Center for Regulatory and Market Studies, American Enterprise Institute
Wednesday, Apr. 23, 2008
10 am – Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine National Security Letters, focusing on the need for greater accountability and oversight.
Witnesses:
James A. Baker, Former Counsel for Intelligence Policy, Department of Justice, Washington, DC
Gregory T. Nojeim, Director, Project on Freedom, Security & Technology, Center for Democracy & Technology, Washington, DC
Michael J. Woods, Former Chief, National Security Law Unit, Office of the General Counsel. Federal Bureau of Investigation, Washington, DC
10:15 am – House Judiciary
Oversight Hearing on the Federal Bureau of Investigation
2 pm – House Oversight and Government Reform
Electronic Communications Preservation Act
Subcommittee on Information Policy, Census, and National Archives
2:30 pm – Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
To hold hearings to examine phantom traffic. The hearing will examine concerns regarding traffic over telephone networks that is sent without identifying information used for intercarrier billing purposes.
Witnesses
Mr. Charles W. McKee, Director, Government Affairs – Wireless Sprint Nextel
Ms. Angela Simpson, Senior Counsel for Government & Regulatory Affairs, Covad Communications
Mr. Larry Sarjeant, Vice President, Federal, Legislative, and Regulatory Affairs Qwest Communications
Mr. Raymond Henagan, General Manager Rock Port Telephone Company
Thursday, Apr. 24, 2008
9 am – House Armed Services and House Science and Technology
The Terrorism, Unconventional Threats and Capabilities Subcommittee joint with the Subcommittee on Research and Science Education of the Science and Technology Committee will meet to hear testimony on role of the social and behavioral sciences in national security.
9:30 am – Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Federal Financial Management, Government Information, Federal Services, and International Security Subcommittee
To hold hearings to examine addressing Iran’s nuclear ambitions, focusing on policy options for the U.S. and its allies.
10 am – Senate Judiciary
Business meeting to consider S. 2533, to enact a safe, fair, and responsible state secrets privilege Act, S. 702,….
Friday, Apr. 25, 2008
9 am – Senate Armed Services
To receive information relating to the treatment of detainees.
sorry for the delay with the promised hearings… somehow i let myself get distracted this morning…
as usual, the complete list is available by clicking on my name (i just tried to pick the hearings i thought might be of the most interest here, but i could have gotten it wrong)
p.s. many thanks to the mods for the quick release of my previous – i shouldn’t have left the links in, that always seems to cause a problem with the filters.
Many thanks to selise for her valuable and diligent work.
{{{Selise}}}
As always.
Used the model of a Protestant Ulster in the midst of Roman Catholic Ireland as a model all over the world. Well, we all know how well that worked out.
The imperial model certainly was divide the locals in order to conquer them. You could find examples in every colony. As you point out, the conflicts generated by that policy have lasted for centuries. There’s a similarity between the English drafting Protestant Scots to emigrate to Northern Ireland in order to create an enclave for English interests, and the Israeli imposition of settlers on what Palestinians consider their land.
This administration’s policies in Iraq are embarrassingly imperial. Like the truth of much else about how they operate, only they refuse to acknowledge it.
Thank you very much. Reviewing the thread, I’d say you used patience and restraint.
thank you!
I have to go back and review the background of the Balfour Declaration but if memory serves his “declaration” was more a result of trying to help European Jews, who he wholeheartedly supported, than England’s imperial policies. He may not have been a great fan of the Arabs in what used to be the Ottoman Empire but I don’t think he foresaw what would occur in the next few years and continues to this day.
Do we know that they were “run out”? And why would that have happened? Thanks