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	<title>Comments on: FDL Book Salon Welcomes Bernie Horn: Framing the Future</title>
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		<title>By: Valley Girl</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400584</link>
		<dc:creator>Valley Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400584</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Spocko-  was off doing other things, but just came back to read your latest comment.  Thank you for a great comment, great thinking, great writing.  Really one of the highlights of the thread, especially as I know quite a bit of your story via FDL and elsewhere.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spocko-  was off doing other things, but just came back to read your latest comment.  Thank you for a great comment, great thinking, great writing.  Really one of the highlights of the thread, especially as I know quite a bit of your story via FDL and elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: spocko</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400530</link>
		<dc:creator>spocko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400530</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Vally Girl: I think fighting them takes place at 3 levels.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One thing I still remember Suzy from Suburban Guerrilla said to me in 2005. She said I’d quit because I’m a liberal and I didn’t have the will to crush them. What they don’t tell you about the “taking the gloves off part” is that  to take the gloves off takes a certain kind of personality and not everyone has that. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; When I spot people with the right personality to take them on I want to elevate them into positions of power and influence. So for example, I’ve watched which pundits/media people do well in the hostile environment. They excel at it and they enjoy it. Sam Seder and Cliff Schecter come to mind.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I push Athenae over at First Draft and her books because she is a brilliant writer and she has the heart of a warrior. So I work to make HER the person to call when they TV and Radio people are looking for a comment on Feith or  journalism/blogging.  The media look for the standard things when they are looking for an “expert” and if we aren’t out there pushing our experts you can bet that the right wing are out there pushing theirs. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We can develop our talent but we can also look at the talent that is out there who can do what needs to be done and support them.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;People talk about “we need a Karl Rove” I don’t want a Karl Rove. I want someone who is BETTER than Karl Rove. Rove is not a genius, he has a few tricks and he uses them over and over. I believe that we can be smarter than them and ethical.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I also encourage us to use our talents to fight them in new ways. I don’t know what field you are in, but say for example you are in the world of Human Resources. And say that you believe that torture is wrong and that the frame of “Security is more important than values” is sent out to the world via people like Doug Feith or John Yoo. Now I say to you. If you can’t figure out how get them prosecuted as a war criminal, then look to the things that ALWAYS trip up the Republicans. Money and bizarre personal relationships. Look into the HR policies of the Universities. Sure it would be great to get him fired for being a war criminal but it would also be great to get him fired for some violation of the schools code of conduct or for a financial misdealing. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Think Al Capone and taxes. And in the process you might be able to make a point about some HR point that right wing people who are working for universities are breaking the rules. Because that is what they do all the time. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Plus, nobody likes Feith and Yoo. They have very few allies. But I will tell you that they will probably cry if they figure out that people are “picking on them” and then that is one of my problems. I have empathy. Unlike them. So it is helpful if you are “taking the gloves off” on people who truly are nasty people who have harmed millions. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We are creative and tough. I might be harder to figure out how to win with out descending into their world, but why not go for the challenge. I love movies where the scrappy underdog figures out how to win and doesn’t become  what they despise to do it. I’m sure you’ve read a few books like that where the people figure out how to make the villain destroy themselves.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One think I will add: You know that whole “Speak truth to Power” deal? Guess what? Power doesn’t like it when you talk back. They especially don’t like it if you impact their money flow. Sometimes they ignore you sometimes they just say, “So?” Other times, if you really want to have an impact on them you have to look for the fulcrum that will move them. What will change their behavior? Who do they listen to? Who has power over them? When you find it you can move them. But be prepared for them to push back. But you will, because you thought it out, you knew what they would do and you prepared for it. And it becomes just another way to win.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vally Girl: I think fighting them takes place at 3 levels.</p>
<p>One thing I still remember Suzy from Suburban Guerrilla said to me in 2005. She said I’d quit because I’m a liberal and I didn’t have the will to crush them. What they don’t tell you about the “taking the gloves off part” is that  to take the gloves off takes a certain kind of personality and not everyone has that. </p>
<p> When I spot people with the right personality to take them on I want to elevate them into positions of power and influence. So for example, I’ve watched which pundits/media people do well in the hostile environment. They excel at it and they enjoy it. Sam Seder and Cliff Schecter come to mind.  </p>
<p>I push Athenae over at First Draft and her books because she is a brilliant writer and she has the heart of a warrior. So I work to make HER the person to call when they TV and Radio people are looking for a comment on Feith or  journalism/blogging.  The media look for the standard things when they are looking for an “expert” and if we aren’t out there pushing our experts you can bet that the right wing are out there pushing theirs. </p>
<p>We can develop our talent but we can also look at the talent that is out there who can do what needs to be done and support them.</p>
<p>People talk about “we need a Karl Rove” I don’t want a Karl Rove. I want someone who is BETTER than Karl Rove. Rove is not a genius, he has a few tricks and he uses them over and over. I believe that we can be smarter than them and ethical.  </p>
<p>I also encourage us to use our talents to fight them in new ways. I don’t know what field you are in, but say for example you are in the world of Human Resources. And say that you believe that torture is wrong and that the frame of “Security is more important than values” is sent out to the world via people like Doug Feith or John Yoo. Now I say to you. If you can’t figure out how get them prosecuted as a war criminal, then look to the things that ALWAYS trip up the Republicans. Money and bizarre personal relationships. Look into the HR policies of the Universities. Sure it would be great to get him fired for being a war criminal but it would also be great to get him fired for some violation of the schools code of conduct or for a financial misdealing. </p>
<p>Think Al Capone and taxes. And in the process you might be able to make a point about some HR point that right wing people who are working for universities are breaking the rules. Because that is what they do all the time. </p>
<p>Plus, nobody likes Feith and Yoo. They have very few allies. But I will tell you that they will probably cry if they figure out that people are “picking on them” and then that is one of my problems. I have empathy. Unlike them. So it is helpful if you are “taking the gloves off” on people who truly are nasty people who have harmed millions. </p>
<p>We are creative and tough. I might be harder to figure out how to win with out descending into their world, but why not go for the challenge. I love movies where the scrappy underdog figures out how to win and doesn’t become  what they despise to do it. I’m sure you’ve read a few books like that where the people figure out how to make the villain destroy themselves.</p>
<p>One think I will add: You know that whole “Speak truth to Power” deal? Guess what? Power doesn’t like it when you talk back. They especially don’t like it if you impact their money flow. Sometimes they ignore you sometimes they just say, “So?” Other times, if you really want to have an impact on them you have to look for the fulcrum that will move them. What will change their behavior? Who do they listen to? Who has power over them? When you find it you can move them. But be prepared for them to push back. But you will, because you thought it out, you knew what they would do and you prepared for it. And it becomes just another way to win.</p>
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		<title>By: ratbastahd</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400523</link>
		<dc:creator>ratbastahd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400523</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yes, great thread!  Sorry I missed it.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I believe that our most important mission, aside from passing actual populist legislation, is framing it properly for the “persuadables.”  If we the people are going to take our country back we MUST first learn how to convince “the people” to realize we are on the same side.  Considering the mood of the public, if we can’t do it now we never will.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, great thread!  Sorry I missed it.</p>
<p>I believe that our most important mission, aside from passing actual populist legislation, is framing it properly for the “persuadables.”  If we the people are going to take our country back we MUST first learn how to convince “the people” to realize we are on the same side.  Considering the mood of the public, if we can’t do it now we never will.</p>
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		<title>By: JeffreyFeldman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400487</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffreyFeldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400487</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;had to duck out for a Passover Seder, but wanted to say “Wow!” Great thread. Thanks, B and FDL. See you all online!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>had to duck out for a Passover Seder, but wanted to say “Wow!” Great thread. Thanks, B and FDL. See you all online!</p>
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		<title>By: Valley Girl</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400448</link>
		<dc:creator>Valley Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 01:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400448</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Spocko- how would you diagnose this malady?  I think that the Dems have a hard time taking the gloves off, so to say, because this is just so “unseemly”.  And, the “consultant class” has been a particular point of discussion at FDL- on and off for the years I’ve been here.  So, I certainly get that part!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spocko- how would you diagnose this malady?  I think that the Dems have a hard time taking the gloves off, so to say, because this is just so “unseemly”.  And, the “consultant class” has been a particular point of discussion at FDL- on and off for the years I’ve been here.  So, I certainly get that part!</p>
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		<title>By: spocko</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400425</link>
		<dc:creator>spocko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400425</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;At the Yearly Kos convention I offered to help three different groups and one individual with messages, narratives and interactions with various audiences. But they don’t want to listen to me, someone who has had a demonstrable success in fighting the right wing noise machine and organized an internationally successful media story. I guess they would rather listen to the people who have lead them to failure year after year.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They didn’t see the talent staring them in the face. Ironically Kos’ book on Crashing the Gates was probably read by these people and they wanted to go back to the same ol’ “experts” to do the same old things and get their asses kicked the same old ways.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The think-tank conservative money machine flows to the right because they have been told that they will do better with GOP right-wing pundits and politicians in place. Maybe it’s time for them to figure out that the GOP is actually BAD for business. What kind of ROI are those think-tanks getting for their funders these days? Maybe since they are the ultra rich they ARE getting good results, but maybe some of them can see that an economy run by Democrats is actually better for them and start funding out think tanks. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe I’ll have to start my own think-tank, the Spocko Think Tank :-)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the Yearly Kos convention I offered to help three different groups and one individual with messages, narratives and interactions with various audiences. But they don’t want to listen to me, someone who has had a demonstrable success in fighting the right wing noise machine and organized an internationally successful media story. I guess they would rather listen to the people who have lead them to failure year after year.  </p>
<p>They didn’t see the talent staring them in the face. Ironically Kos’ book on Crashing the Gates was probably read by these people and they wanted to go back to the same ol’ “experts” to do the same old things and get their asses kicked the same old ways.</p>
<p>The think-tank conservative money machine flows to the right because they have been told that they will do better with GOP right-wing pundits and politicians in place. Maybe it’s time for them to figure out that the GOP is actually BAD for business. What kind of ROI are those think-tanks getting for their funders these days? Maybe since they are the ultra rich they ARE getting good results, but maybe some of them can see that an economy run by Democrats is actually better for them and start funding out think tanks. </p>
<p>Maybe I’ll have to start my own think-tank, the Spocko Think Tank :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Ann in AZ</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400343</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann in AZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400343</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;What he wants I suppose is a negative income tax. Just give people the money. But resistance to that kind of redistribution from people who don’t believe people should be paid to survive is even stronger than it is to welfare?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What you appear to be describing is called “income maintenance” when I worked on the experimental social program during the Nixon Administration.  It was hoped by Nixonians that it would be a replacement for welfare.  &lt;strong&gt;It is a train wreck of a system!&lt;/strong&gt;  The whole idea is to just give people a subsistence income so that they can survive and take the caseworkers out of it.  Of course, you still need workers in offices taking apps and working on income report forms so that you could have some modicum of oversight, but I got some feedback after the results of the four experiments came back, and the system just doesn’t do well.  Good social workers are way more effective than you think!  But you’re right; like “liberal,” the rethugs have used “entitlements” as a dirty word and pinned it on the Dems as something we want for everybody for way too long!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I agree, go back and reclaim FDR and his four freedoms and at the same time, excoriate Bush for taking away the freedoms that he has expunged.  Tell the people we will restore Habeas Corpus, privacy, and personal freedom.  Of course, you realize we cannot do this if Hillary becomes our candidate.  She has supported making flag-burning illegal, and so far has not said a peep about restoring Habeas Corpus or banning torture to my knowledge.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What he wants I suppose is a negative income tax. Just give people the money. But resistance to that kind of redistribution from people who don’t believe people should be paid to survive is even stronger than it is to welfare?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What you appear to be describing is called “income maintenance” when I worked on the experimental social program during the Nixon Administration.  It was hoped by Nixonians that it would be a replacement for welfare.  <strong>It is a train wreck of a system!</strong>  The whole idea is to just give people a subsistence income so that they can survive and take the caseworkers out of it.  Of course, you still need workers in offices taking apps and working on income report forms so that you could have some modicum of oversight, but I got some feedback after the results of the four experiments came back, and the system just doesn’t do well.  Good social workers are way more effective than you think!  But you’re right; like “liberal,” the rethugs have used “entitlements” as a dirty word and pinned it on the Dems as something we want for everybody for way too long!</p>
<p>I agree, go back and reclaim FDR and his four freedoms and at the same time, excoriate Bush for taking away the freedoms that he has expunged.  Tell the people we will restore Habeas Corpus, privacy, and personal freedom.  Of course, you realize we cannot do this if Hillary becomes our candidate.  She has supported making flag-burning illegal, and so far has not said a peep about restoring Habeas Corpus or banning torture to my knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: DWBartoo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400328</link>
		<dc:creator>DWBartoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400328</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Excellent comment!!!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The ‘Four Freedoms’:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1. Freedom of Speech and Expression&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2. Freedom of Religion (we should add, ‘from’, as well, perhaps)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;3. Freedom from Want&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;4. Freedom from Fear&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yes, we could do much worse.  Much worse, in deed as well as fact …&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent comment!!!</p>
<p>The ‘Four Freedoms’:</p>
<p>1. Freedom of Speech and Expression</p>
<p>2. Freedom of Religion (we should add, ‘from’, as well, perhaps)</p>
<p>3. Freedom from Want</p>
<p>4. Freedom from Fear</p>
<p>Yes, we could do much worse.  Much worse, in deed as well as fact …</p>
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		<title>By: Knut</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400299</link>
		<dc:creator>Knut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400299</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This discussion brings to mind a conversation I had last night with a person my age who styles himself an Eisenhower and Rockefeller Republican and went to high school and Princeton with Charlie Gibson. He’s voting for Obama this time round, if Obama makes it to the General Election.  He’s a decent guy whose written the major textbook in my field, and so actually has some effect on how young college students see the social history of their nation.  I identified myself as an Adlai Stevenson Democrat.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Anyway, the word was ‘entitlement.’  He said, he liked a lot of what the Democrats had to say about Iraq and the government fiscal policy, and hates the corruption of his party by the thugs who captured it.  But he says, what sticks in his craw is the Democrat’s support of ‘entitlements.’   I asked him if he meant Social Security, which he and I are now both collecting, and he said no.  So I said, which ones, exactly?  And he couldn’t come up with any specifics.  It was just the word, that stands for the idea of somebody getting something just because of their status that sticks in his Protestant craw.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It wasn’t Head Start, it wasn’t food stamps.  What he wants I suppose is a negative income tax.  Just give people the money.  But resistance to that kind of redistribution from people who don’t believe people should be paid to survive is even stronger than it is to welfare?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;‘Entitlements’ is a code word.  It is one of those words that is killing us.  It gives people the sense that other people are living off their hard work.  It means tests our social consciousness.  We need better framing for what amounts to social solidarity.  FDR was a master at it, and we could worse than to return to his ‘Four Freedoms.’&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion brings to mind a conversation I had last night with a person my age who styles himself an Eisenhower and Rockefeller Republican and went to high school and Princeton with Charlie Gibson. He’s voting for Obama this time round, if Obama makes it to the General Election.  He’s a decent guy whose written the major textbook in my field, and so actually has some effect on how young college students see the social history of their nation.  I identified myself as an Adlai Stevenson Democrat.</p>
<p>Anyway, the word was ‘entitlement.’  He said, he liked a lot of what the Democrats had to say about Iraq and the government fiscal policy, and hates the corruption of his party by the thugs who captured it.  But he says, what sticks in his craw is the Democrat’s support of ‘entitlements.’   I asked him if he meant Social Security, which he and I are now both collecting, and he said no.  So I said, which ones, exactly?  And he couldn’t come up with any specifics.  It was just the word, that stands for the idea of somebody getting something just because of their status that sticks in his Protestant craw.</p>
<p>It wasn’t Head Start, it wasn’t food stamps.  What he wants I suppose is a negative income tax.  Just give people the money.  But resistance to that kind of redistribution from people who don’t believe people should be paid to survive is even stronger than it is to welfare?</p>
<p>‘Entitlements’ is a code word.  It is one of those words that is killing us.  It gives people the sense that other people are living off their hard work.  It means tests our social consciousness.  We need better framing for what amounts to social solidarity.  FDR was a master at it, and we could worse than to return to his ‘Four Freedoms.’</p>
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		<title>By: Ann in AZ</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400254</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann in AZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/20/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-bernie-horn-framing-the-future/#comment-1400254</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That’s why I like Donaldson’s comment so much:  He painted Hillary with a Washington insider brush while Obama is for change.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s why I like Donaldson’s comment so much:  He painted Hillary with a Washington insider brush while Obama is for change.</p>
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