As the nation sinks into what may become the worst recession in decades and Americans worry about their economic security, John McCain is struggling to prove he’s not clueless about economics. But his proposal this week for a "gas-tax holiday" has been widely panned because it "would do only one thing: send more money to oil producers."
McCain proposed that Congress suspend the tax on gasoline (18.4 cents/gal.) and diesel (24.4 cents/gal) from Memorial Day to Labor Day. (He would also suspend purchases for the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.) But would the tax holiday accomplish the savings and stimulation he claimed?
First, those tax revenues sustain the Highway Trust Fund, which funds building and maintenance of US highways, including the Interstate Highway System. So at a time when the country needs to repair/upgrade it’s infractructure while providing associated jobs, McCain would stop collecting the taxes that make that possible. Missouri’s Republican Senator Kit Bonds: "I don’t see how cutting funds to fix bad roads and fight congestion helps families."
Second, the price of gasoline affects how much people drive. If the price goes up, some people drive less; if it goes down, some people drive more. McCain’s proposal would likely increase driving and thus gasoline consumption. That increases US oil consumption (and oil imports) and puts upward pressure on oil prices (currently about $114/bbl). Result: it puts more dollars in the pockets of oil producers.
If we drive more, we’ll pollute more. It won’t help global climate change either.
Of course, if the amount of gasoline people buy is affected by price then it’s also logical to expect that suspension of the tax while demand is high during the summer could push the price back up towards where it began, which means even higher revenues for the oil/gasoline industry, but the expected "savings" for the driving public would disappear.
There is a reason why European countries and Japan impose much higher gas taxes than we do. They understand that high gasoline demand hurts their economies and harms the environment. It makes them more dependent on imported oil and thus harms their national security. So they impose stiff taxes to discourage gasoline consumption, encourage its efficient use, reduce imports and encourage the development of non-oil alternatives. We should be doing the same thing, but McCain has got it all backwards.
The Wall Street Journal: "McCain’s gas-tax plan may be a clunker." (h/t Aravasis)
According to a white paper circulated on Capitol Hill last week by the U.S. Transportation Department, every $1 billion of federal highway investment supports 34,779 jobs.
Many economists have also questioned the wisdom of suspending or cutting gas taxes; doing so, they say, simply stimulates more consumption of gasoline.
The New York Times:
. . . economists and energy analysts say it would have little impact on mitigating the rise in gasoline prices. In fact, it could lead to the opposite result. . . .
“Higher demand just pushes the world price a bit higher, giving a sizable share of the tax refund to oil producers,” said Lee Schipper, an energy expert and a visiting scholar at the University of California at Berkeley.
Similar reviews: McCain proposal "panned" in the Boston Herald; "McCain’s ‘holiday’ would damage US roads, economy" — Kansas City Star; a "campaign retread" — MSNBC.
Having proved again he’d be clueless in handling the economy, McCain is now trying pyschology. He told Fox News that the gas-tax holiday wasn’t really an economic proposal; he just meant it as a psychological ploy to make us feel better. Sure. That works if he doesn’t become President.
So on Tuesday McCain said it would stimulate the economy and the benefits would trickle down to consumers. Now it’s just pandering on the Happy Talk Express.
____________
Here’s some history on gasoline taxes from your government:
On November 5, 1990, President George H. W. Bush approved the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990. . . . The Act increased the Federal gas tax by 5 cents, with half the increase going to the Highway Trust Fund, the other half to deficit reduction.
The Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, signed by President Bill Clinton on August 10, 1993, increased the gas tax by 4.3 cents, bringing the total tax to 18.4 cents per gallon. The increase was entirely for deficit reduction, with none credited to the Highway Trust Fund. However, the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, which President Clinton approved on August 5, 1997, redirected the 4.3-cents general fund gas tax increase to the Highway Trust Fund.
Related posts:
- Late Late Night FDL: Holiday Road
- Peggy Noonan: Catering to the Base Hurts the Country, Except When Republicans are in Charge
- McCain Rediscovers His Passion for Screwing Us with Bad Telecom Policy
- Will Feinstein Team Up with DeMint and McCain to Destroy CARS?
- Frank Rich: McCain Was Wrong On Everything. CNN Treats Him As Sage
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Good morning, Scarecrow.
When the WSJ pans your plan to cut taxes, you know it’s a clunker.
Not only is McCain’t clueless about the economy, he’s also a half-witted war-mongering little fascist fuck, and yet the headline this morning is “McCain Running Strong.” Tell me how that can be.
CARPOOL peeps…McCains beer franchise makes 300,000,000.00 per year,he dont give a fig!!!!!!!!!!!!
OT …wtf
300,000 vets have mental problem, 320,000 had brain injuries
Study: 300,000 US troops from Iraq, Afghanistan have mental problems, 320,000 brain injuries
PAULINE JELINEK
AP News
Apr 17, 2008 09:47 EST
Some 300,000 U.S. troops are suffering from major depression or post traumatic stress from serving in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and 320,000 received brain injuries, a new study estimates.
Only about half have sought treatment, said the study released Thursday by the RAND Corporation.
“There is a major health crisis facing those men and women who have served our nation in Iraq and Afghanistan,” said Terri Tanielian, the project’s co-leader and a researcher at the nonprofit RAND.
“Unless they receive appropriate and effective care for these mental health conditions, there will be long-term consequences for them and for the nation,” she said in an interview with The Associated Press.
If the tax was dropped, prices would quickly rise to fill that void. We’ll see loower prices only when the dollar recovers. That cannot happen while Republics have any power. They are the ones who destroyed its value.
make bike not car.
The gas tax scam is one of Ron Paul’s and the libertarian’s float around…..
you know those yeahoos who used public schools, colleges, services and roads to become the adult they are now want to stop paying taxes …. they are all over AZ … drives me nuts..
BTW waving Hi from NYC
Good Morning Scarecrow!
The psychological boost we need is NOT electing you, McCain. (The stoopid, it burns.)
*waving to katymine in the city*
When mentioning any sort of troop totals, it’s always good to remember that no one from the Bush family is willing to serve in Bush’s war. That number, sadly, is never reported.
remember DeNiro in TAXICAB
can you say 1/2 a million DENIROs
Oh, you mean those people who are always complaining that we are “Stealing their money”? I am getting to the point that I want to inflict severe violence on the next person who rants about penalizing their success in order to reward failure, just so the Democrats can “buy” the votes of these lazy lay abpouts. What a bunch of mean spirited skunks.
we are in deep trouble,as a nation…the OLD WHITE HAIRED OLIGARCHS are not going to go away QUIETLY ,and let Prez Obama take office…that is why they pay the COURT JESTERS/CHEERLEADERS multi millions….what can we do?
i hate this fucking war.
The critic is an on-line columnist for WSJ, not the editorial page.
Good morning, everyone. It’s Friday, and National Psychological Boost Day.
Apparently, Gov Crist (R, FL) is floating the same gas tax holiday idea.
Good morning, Scarecrow. Great post. That is a truly amazing overnight response on editorial pages to McCain’s stupid “idea”. Even my local paper had an editorial against it (and against the Florida legislature saying “Me, too” to his proposal).
The caffeine hasn’t kicked in for me yet, but did you also quote Kit Bond saying something that makes sense? His FISA comments have been so deranged that I thought he couldn’t put one sentence together without being arrested by the logic police.
lol!
(I am a little slo this morning)
Morning, Scarecrow – good work!
I’ve always wondered how my frontal lobes would look in a push-up bra….
Looks like Maryland is trying to get in on the action too.
Believe me, that ain’t going anywhere. More pandering.
words fail.
Some snippets from that editorial:
More writing like this in the press, please.
I thought that was an earthquake! We could feel it here in southern MI, a little.
I think that’s right. It’s just pandering. The video clip of McCain on Fox News is revealing. His own econ advisers must have told him this was nuts, bt he thought he could just throw it in the package and get some credit, knowing that there was no chance in hell it would be passed by Congress. So now, after claiming his proposals would “stimulate the economy and trickle down” to consumers, he’s backing off and saying “a little straight talk here” — it’s not really serious.
3 words peeps
WINFALL …PROFITS…TAX…pass it on!
Right, Senator. Now tell me, when does Teh Serious start? Don’t you think it’s a little past due?
Maybe like this…?
Well, not yours, maybe McCain’s.
Everyone okay? Apparently a 5.2 magnitude earthquake in Illinois. Been through a few of those when I lived in California. How do the birds know?
McCain uses Douglas Holtz-Eakin as his chief economics guy. Holtz-Eakin is the former head of the Congressional Budget Office and served 18 months as Senior Staff Economist for the Council of Economic Advisors for the current incumbent.
Here is what he says to the Boston Globe:
Actually, this idea of cutting gas taxes has been tried:
“The state spent all this money to see if gas stations actually chopped the price off,” said Rozell. But the results were inconclusive.
Would you like some pander with that tax cut, Madame Right-Wing Voter?
Some people think it’s the long wavelength low frequency rumbles that arrive before the big stuff. My wife saw our cats do about a three foot vertical leap before the Loma Prieta rumbling got started.
Good find on Holtz-Eakin. The response to him is in that same Globe article:
Yet another reason to have a cat. Early warning device. Wonder if the height of the leap signals the magnitude?
Well Heck! Maybe he’ll suggest a big tax credit for SUV purchasers instead.
when I lived in the Bay Area, one night my nonplussed cat was particularly plussed and I just wanted to sleep. Finally, after he knocked something over I tossed him out the door. Well, turns out it was the earthquake that knocked something over. But cat was total squirrel BEFORE it hit. I still feel bad about kicking him out just when he needed me most.
That’s probably when the cat insurgency started.
Heard from some family members in St. Louis and southern Illinois — no problems there.
Ditto about the cats. When I lived in the Portland OR area we had an earthquake. The cats freaked out before the ground started shaking. It was pretty stunning.
Good morning Scarecrow, pups
So, McThueselah thinks we need to cut the gas tax.
We don’t need to reduce it, we need to raise it. We need to cut consumption and cut demand (as Scarecrow points out.)
But investing in our crumbling infrastructure, that would be bad, cuz it wouldn’t benefit the oil industry.
Might put a few Americans to work (I know of what I speak, I work for a construction company. We successfully bid on building a bridge, and all breathed a sigh of relief that we might have jobs for the next two years because of it.)
I do support the one idea McCain gave that has proven in the past to help drive down gas prices. The suspension of purchases to the Strategic Oil Reserve. If you recall, that prior to Bush’s 2007 State of the Union adress where he “announced” that the US was doubling the US OIL Strategic reserve for National Security purposes, the price of Oil was about $55/bbl. Any free market, GOP with an MBA should know that purchasing oil in the open market at the highest price in history is anything but strategic.
In fact let’s sell off some of the low priced Oil in the strategic Oil reserve and realize a nice healthy profit for the US and help pay for GeeDUB’s imperial wars.
OT
Show trials:
Any bets some very “empathetic” journalists will be sitting with the families to share their grief while they watch? And then they will refrain from reporting on it all. Not.
How wonderful!
Good thing it’s not an election year or some could doubt their intentions…
This is exactly the case…$4.00 gas would become $4.00 and tax and oil compainies keeping the tax. With help like this who needs the government we don’t have anymore.
Play such a serious event for crass political gain?
In a heartbeatNever! Any bets on the verdict? I understand that a boatload of kangaroos has been shipped in…It is more and more apparent that the “conservative” mindset with regard to economics results in nothing more substantive than a penny wise, pound foolish philosophy. Scarecrow has brought to light just another example of McCain’s inability to grasp economic complexities.
And let’s be real, the economic algorithms of a fiat currency system like we have in America are some of the most complex concoctions in mathematics. Chaos mathematicians would rather model the creation of a coastline on a volcanic island rather than deal with modeling the intricacies of the American economic state space.
Which is why the absolute idiocy of the conservative propensity for oversimplification can be shown with the foolishness of a right wing proxy stooge like Charles Gibson saying, “When you lower the capital gains tax, revenue collection increases.” Well genius, THERE’S are solution to everything!
I wish to god Obama was sharper that evening and he had said, “Well Charlie, you’re a genius, if we lower the capital gains tax to a limit approaching zero, then we should have infinite tax collected revenue, right, you incredible boob? Do you have any suspicion that the economic equation might be slightly more complex than that simple dependent equation you’ve managed to get your head around?”
Suspending the gas tax is a typical Republican ploy. While they are shoveling money to corporations and the rich, they realize that occasionally they need to throw a few dollars in the direction of the rest of us to keep us quiet so that they can continue to loot the government.
Good morning, egregious. You didn’t have to move to California to experience an earthquake. You coulda stoped in Illinois.
Mornin’ All -
we had tortoises come out from their under-the-bed hibernation boxes 5 minutes before a Loma Prieta 5.5 aftershock
was this New Madrid ?
Not an earthquake, but the morning of our hurricane, several hours before it came thru, I saw all the neighborhood deer lying down together.
should i worry more about an earthquake, or tortoises under my bed?
BTW in the fdl news box the story on the reaction to ABC’s debate/smear says that the number of comments is up to 12,300 mostly negative. As I pointed out last night, ABC’s story on the reaction essentially tried to gloss over the anger. On NPR the initial story made no mention of the controversy at all. The afternoon reporting did but still did not go that deeply into it. The NewsHour didn’t mention it at all. The news media continues to ressemble a boys club where members do not criticize members.
Still not sure I can distinguish between an earthquake and being shaky before morning coffee.
Maybe some of us here at the lake are sensitive to long wavelength low frequency rumbles in the political and economic spheres. We wonder why everybody else doesn’t feel alarmed yet.
It was an extension of the New Madrid fault. Overall an interesting if not entirely pleasant way to wake up.
McClatchy has a story on the woman ABC picked to asked the flag lapel pin question:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/34071.html
And TPM is speculating ABC tracked her down so she could ask a question they’ be too embarrassed to ask. I thought that was a null set.
from ezraklein (via atrios) – what’s middle class?
they actually hibernate and you can literally put them in a shoe box and stow ‘em for a few months – early spring, you hear ‘em scratching and let ‘em out in time for some hot tortoise on tortoise action :D
ABC’s up to nearly 20,000 comments now. People just don’t seem very forgiving these days.
I’ve been trying to find a link to his opening statement, but possible VP candidate Rob Portman of the OMB was excoriated earlier this week during a hearing with the House Budget Committee (?) His opening statement was all that about shrinking the government — surprisingly he did not mention a bathtub. He extolled the virtues of that winning Republican economic strategy we are all now enjoying the benefits of.
Here’s just a snippet from an article on him as possible VP (but I’m still seeking that statement)
that last line cracks me up.
sweet jeebus – walking by teevee for warm up and they’re showing President and Mrs Carter at a diplomatic meeting – onscreen read: “Carter’s Terrorist Talks”
Nice!!!
Hey pups – Glenzilla up on Democracy Now…dissecting the “debate and the political media.
For an attorney, he’s pretty good with a scalpel.
Slightly OT and I apologize, but C&L has a great piece on the reporting freeze on the McCains. Maddow politely smacked Scarborough on Gregory’s show last night, and the C&L post illustrates perfectly the gross media bias. If Michelle Obama was a thief, adultress, past prescription drug abuser, and had been involved in sloppy bookkeeping during the Keating Five scandal, it would be BREAKING NEWS on all channels. Oh wait, that was Cindy McCain. The post is below. Go to C&L for great links.
“Do you think if Barack Obama had left his seriously ill wife after having had multiple affairs, had been a member of the “Keating Five,” had had a relationship with a much younger lobbyist that his staff felt the need to try and block, had intervened on behalf of the client of said young lobbyist with a federal agency, had denounced then embraced Jerry Falwell, had denounced then embraced the Bush tax cuts, had confused Shiite with Sunni, had confused Al Qaeda in Iraq with the Mahdi Army, had actively sought the endorsement and appeared on stage with a man who denounced the Catholic Church as a whore, and stated that he knew next to nothing about economics — do you think it’s possible that Obama would have been treated differently by the media than John McCain has been? Possible?
And — this is fun to contemplate — if Michelle Obama had been an adulteress, drug addict thief with a penchant for plagiarism — do you think that she would be subject to slightly different treatment from the media than Cindypills McCain has been? Anyone?”
I lost a tortoise to an earthquake. He was hibernating under the shed and never came out. When we took the shed down, we found him. The ground had collapsed. Poor Helmet. :(
Yeah, it disgusts, and it’s the kind of disgust that keeps on disgusting. Sure the MSM have proven themselves lapdogs to the establishment and Edward R. Murrow is rolling in his grave at 30,000 rpm, we know that.
Still, it is continually amazing the level to which the collusion continues to control and shape the collective “message” on the airwaves.
I guess I shouldn’t be amazed. I know the role corporatism plays in the media, but it still hits like a sledge sometimes when it is so blatant.
But here’s the fact that allows it to happen: they CAN get away with it, so they do. They never feel the pain of this unethical behavior. They only feel the positive of playing ball with the establishment; from a corporate perspective, it would be bad business sense to operate any other way. I guess we should pity them the fact that their hands are tied. Poor corporate millionaires.
saw that. Perhaps that should be the one blog post that repeats over and over all over the toobz for a few days. Maybe someone might read it and think about it for more than 2 seconds.
mebbe they’re bitter :D
Holy Cow! Talk about proving Obama’s “bitter” explanation. Could there be a more precise example?
Sorry, that was in response to Scarecrow at 54. The article about the lady who asked Obama if he “believed in the flag” is realy worth reading.
Good Morning Scarecrow.
Terrific post. Keep pounding on em, with my blessing, fwiw.
Say, did anyone ever find out why SHE wasn’t wearing a pin?
ABC News is not a 2 man operation: Gibson and Stephanopoulos. This was a set up and thought through. The smarmy Mark Halperin conservative wannabe was their Political Director and only stepped down last year. He is credited with “training” many of the reporters currently covering political news. From this perspective, the ABC debate was not only predictable it was inevitable.
Yeah, between that and Stephan… using Hannity for questions, you’d think the evening was planned as a hit job, just as other events have looked like open season on Clinton.
Debate negative reaction makes the front page of the LA Times dead tree copy, via story on Obama’s next day comments. Here’s pdf of front page, since online Times has buried the story. Header is right below the polygamy photo du jour:
Moderators ‘Gotcha’ Tone Inspires Angry New Debate
Goodness gracious, John and Hugh;
Journalists are ‘professional’ and criticism of others of their ilk is considered, ahem, quite ‘rightly’, very discourteous and quite, quite un-professional, which American journalists, by definition and by virtue (of their inherent ‘exceptionalsim’) NEVER, ever, are …
But, you both know that. How could it be other, wise? ;~D
I just received his book last night. I have read through most of it. He does an incredible job of shining light on the complicit media and the “Great American Hypocrites” called the GOP.
On one of the “news” show last night they were talking about how poorly Obama fared during the “debate”. They ran a clip of him giving one line responses to the shitty, shitty questions. You know, he looked sick at heart. Sick at heart and beaten down by the stupid stick that the media in this country employs in order to bludgeon us all down and bury us under the crap that they have decided is news in this country. Obama has a soul, and it is suffering when it contemplates the overwhelming job that he faces in cutting through this wall of media bias.
And what happens in September when all of a sudden the gas price takes a 43 cent jump? Won’t that be fun.
i’m afraid to look. are we extinct yet? endangered? certainly on a watch list, but….
which brings me back to the question: why did the candidates choose to “debate” in this fashion and in this venue?
Mornin’ Doc – thought of you when I saw this
I wish Obama had walked out in protest. Clinton would have stayed behind and talked about how bitter he was.
I think it may be something like the question of unilateral disarmament. The agreements regarding the Michigan and Florida primaries might be instructive.
Mmmm…My orange juice was bitter this morning?
-G
In my profession, we have a term: GIGO, “garbage in, garbage out.” It’s not a hard and fast maxim, it’s simply a reality of information systems.
When you’re swimming in a cesspool, it doesn’t matter if your Australian Crawl form is impeccable, you are still going to stink. Hillary did seem be quite comfortable with her backstroke though, I must say.
Try drinking it before you brush!
That’s a good question. The only game in town? A mistaken belief that the major news media still have a modicum of professionalism left? I don’t know, just as I don’t know why other than ego Clinton remains in the race and continues to damage the Democratic brand.
Maybe you should pray over it first. Or drink it while holding your favorite firearm.
I don’t understand all of this talk about bitterness, but then I like unsweetened grapefruit juice.
My, a Norquistian Bush flunky is sooooooooooo outside the box Johnny Boy.
-G
P.S. Nice of ABC to track down Marge Schott and get her to vent her white angst on Obama.
I heard Ed Schultz, yesterday, employing a local steel worker’s union boss to get a new debate forum up before next Tuesday to address the union concerns that were categorically ignored in favor of the pablum.
‘member when junior tried to jam hisself thru the door of the Clinton library in front of Mr. C?
i’m thinkin’ it was that sort of reasoning.
Interesting.
When Clinton was subjected to this petty questioning and Obama was given a pass by Russert and Williams and she complained, she was accused of whining and playing the victim by Obama’s supporters.
When Obama complains, he’s a hero.
Bit of a double standard there, I think.
While I agree that the questioning of candidates by the media remains abysmal, the fact is that Obama stumbled and stammered when answering questions of substance, and that should concern people more than whether he’s subjected to the same petty “gotcha” questions Clinton has been all along.
I’m surprised McCain wants to stop adding to the strategic oil reserves. On a radio show last week there was an interesting segment about how Bush pulled out an old at-war law in order to increase the strategic oil reserves. The reserves are 4 times, as I recall, what we normally have. This has helped to drive up the price of oil.
LOL
Because she is helping to vet him. You know she is doing him a favor because the big bad GOP will be even worse. /snark She is literally deploying the exact same tactics as the Right Wing Nuts. Unforgivable. I hope someone gives her a primary challenge as well.
Juno,
Back for another round of calling everyone who doesn’t support Sen. Clinton ‘cultists’?
-G
oh, here we go…
i’m just glad when either or both of them call it when they see it.
huzzah to BOTH candidates, the good one and the better one.
Hillary wears a flag pin?
Senator Obama puts them ‘On Notice’
i wore a flag pin upside down for months after the pugs stole our gummint.
internatl signal of extreme distress…
Obama will be the nominee. Clinton does not have any major policy differences with him. She should butt out for the good of the party and the country. Her attacks merely do John McCain’s work for him.
I’m dribbling grapefruit juice down my chin in apoplexy over the irony that she should be beaten by Eliot Spitzer!
Ouch, Hugh. heh.
Juno? I believe you’re on. Ready. Aim…
Right. And criticism of the Bush Admin. only helps the terrorists too.
If Americans choose McCain, a Republican, over Obama or Clinton, despite the damage Repubs have done to this country over the last 15 years, simply because Obama and Clinton are in a tight race for the nomination with primaries still to be held, voters’ voices still to be heard, then they deserve what they get and I”d say their priorities are all wrong.
Thanks cbl! I had missed that. Hmmmm using satire to deal with idiocy, me rikey!
I think if you had been around FDL at the time, you would have seen that many, if not most commentors agreed that she got a raw deal from Russert and Williams. Additionally, the consensus was that Chris Matthews was unfair to Hillary. I even contributed to her campaign because of it. But, I don’t recall anyone in the Obama campaign, much less Obama himself, jumping on the band wagon. I don’t know if you’re still conflating with criticism you got on another blog with the Obama campaign, or what.
Also in the fdl news box is the story about a study out of the National Defense University which calls Iraq a debacle. The NDU is a very Establishment place and some of its faculty took part in the Iraq Study Group panels. This is another sign of their growing frustration and unhappiness with the Boy King’s f*cking up a domain which they see as theirs.
Sorry, it’s not tight. It’s over…is that coffee?
No kidding, huh?
Odd that I have to wear protective armor in an Obama atmosphere.
Now that is something we can all agree on.
-G
Netherlands top general’s son is killed in Afghanistan.
I might be on the other side of this fence, these tax revenue are far higher then the costs of repair, gas has ballooned thanx to cheney far in excess of economy or inflation
I believe the tax should be lowered, sorry
Thank you, Scarecrow, for once again making the not-so-comprehensible comprehensible.
t’ain’t over til the superdelegates say so, and I’m telling you, this isn’t about “bitter” or “sniper” or any of that. It’s that the superdelegates are sensing that Obama can’t win the necessary states and voters in November but are conflicted because he does have more delegates and the popular vote.
My problem is that I believe Obama has earned those delegates and votes on false premises, premises which are beginning to break down now. Dems better be careful.
Juno,
I will just ask that you realize that this is not the Huffpo and that many here have repeatedly critized the medias and the rightwings attacks on both of the Clinton’s.
Not everyone hates Sen. Clinton and not everyone is a glassy eyed Obamaniac.
So please don’t transfer your anger about your Huffpo experience over here.
-G
This country does not deserve John McCain. Nor do our children. Nor do we. These are not normal times. This is not your average primary race. The stakes are too high for ego. Clinton should get out. Her continued presence in the campaign harms us.
That’s not your only problem, but hey, in the world of the blue dog democratic moderates, logic is an overrated quality.
Good luck dealing with your issues! You’re in for a bumpy ride.
On the one hand, many of you say she’s a neocon but on the other you say she doesn’t have many differences with Obama and therefore should step out.
Curious.
I agree, nicely put.
Well, I have a BS cum laude in philosophy, so I’d say that, at least my college professors thought I was at least adequate at logic.
It’d behoove Democrats to start thinking a little more coldly and strategically and realistically, even if it isn’t what you want to believe.
If they vote for McCain, they deserve what they will get as a consequence of that vote.
Obama can certainly step out of the race to save the party as well. The concern for saving the party drops dramatically, though, when that is suggested.
Have to go make money. In the meantime . . .
Refrain from insulting each other.
Please solve this problem: how can we pull the party back together after the candidate is chosen? But here’s the trick: Don’t talk about what the other candidate should do or stop doing; instead, explain what you’d like your candidate to do to smooth that transition and avoid the likely alienation.
I’ll expect answers on my laptop by next Monday morning.
.
a refresher course may be in order. or at least, may i suggest you keep your commenters straight? it is not unusual for different commenters to hold different and even contradictory opinions. and that does not, a priori, negate either commenter’s argument.
Then why did Adie put up a post suggesting I get ready for fire?
It is certainly not as bad here as at HuffPo, and I have said that repeatedly. But last night I was indeed helped to a serving of “ignore her”, “why are you even here?”, accusations of “blind hatred for Obama”, etc.
I’m THRILLED over the outcry over that debate. It is about time the press took a much needed beating. But it did take the Obama blogoshere to create it and it did not occur when Clinton was under the same bogus scrutiny, and the refrain WAS that she was whining, faking tears, and playing the victim.
(btw, Matthews should have been fired).
Bye Scarecrow. Thanks for a great post.
oops. broke scarecrow’s most excellent parting instructions.
better move on to the next thread….
All righty then, I’ll entreat you to pull out that BS.
Riddle me this: Clinton’s propensity to engage ,with the media when focusing on inconsequential idiocies like, “who someone is acquainted with,” is somehow logically equivalent to the idea that righteous dissent with the current administration helps terroristic organizations.
I’m sorry. That is not philosophy, that is sophistry.
Creating a strawman and knocking it down proves nothing. You have no argument to explain what good Clinton accomplishes by staying in the race. You simply believe what you believe and will continue to do so. This is an attribute you share with such illustrious Americans as George Bush and Dick Cheney. Full speed ahead and damn the consequences.
Unsweetened grapefruit juice would technically be sour, not bitter.
The sophistry, in my opinion, is saying that her staying in the race is hurting the party and she should therefore stop and drop out.
That IS the equivalent of saying someone should shut up and go away because by doing what they have every right to be doing is causing harm and impeding the other party (meaning Obama in this case).
Therefore, the analogy to the claims that criticizing Bush is tantamount to aiding the terrorists and hurts America is a good one. 1) it doesn’t aid them or hurt America, and Clinton’s staying in the race only hurts Democrats if Democrats let it; 2) We have a right to dissent and criticize the admin., we should do it, and Clinton has a right to stay in a race that has not seen every state vote yet or the superdelegates make a decision; 3) in each case it is nothing more than one side trying to coerce the other out of doing something they have an absolute right to do by trying to portray them as dangerous and harmful to the party/country.
It’s the same tactic and a good analogy, and I reject both.
Juno,
Adie was saying that she expected YOU to ‘fire’ back with a comment.
-G
sour is a strange word though, it could mean rancid but it could mean parching
This makes me bitter.
I think you’re right, and I misread her comment.
Yes, and I’ve come to think of Hilary and Ralph Nader in the same regard. He had every right, under our system, to give us George Bush.
Hmmm two circumstances you proposes as equivalents and then reject as equally false. Well that’s all fair and balanced isn’t it. Perhaps your professors should should have mentioned two things. First, the logical fallacy of weak analogy is the hallmark of sophistry. Second, analogy is the weakest form of logical argument. Here’s a refresher course if you want to pick up that advanced degree; Google, “logical fallicy, weak analogy.”
(by the way, that response was ad hominem ;-)
Nader didn’t give us Bush. Nader had every right to run. The people who voted for Nader gave us Bush. People didn’t have to vote for him, though, and in my opinion shouldn’t have done so.
Ironically, it was the idealists who voted for him and handed the election in Florida to Bush.
I don’t see any ad hominems here.
Why can’t equal things be false? You say mine is a weak analogy. Does that make it so? I think it’s a good analogy and goes to the heart of democracy in both instances. Dissent is a right and does not harm the country; candidates have a right to stay in races that are not over and that does not harm a party, or shouldn’t. And it is the fact that neither hurts the country/party as is being claimed that is the cause of my rejecting both arguments.
Hillary Clinton is not hurting the party. Those who are saying she is are. Just as Nader didn’t give Bush the victory, those who voted for him did.
Should we set a precedent from now on that, in a close race, the person who happens to have fewer votes should just step down rather than finishing out the race? I think that’s a dangerous precedence to set. I also think it’s unnecessary.
Frankly, I suspect Republicans are loving the cries of Dems that Clinton is hurting the party. Does that hurt the party??
Hmmm. Okay, if you want to hold Nader harmless for his bone-headed egotism, I’ll say Hillary must be innocent, but it’s those people who keep encouraging her to stay in and voting for her. The only thing is, I had thought both of them could add and were more dedicated to the welfare of the country.
My response was ad hominem. I was being facetious.
I don’t have a background in political science or sociology so I will not speak to the positive or negative of Hillary Clinton remaining in political race that she has very little chance of winning.
Philosophically, Nietzsche stated that which does not kill you makes you stronger and if that is so with Clinton’s use of typical right wing attacks on Obama now, as opposed to later, then perhaps some purpose is being served. Who knows.
I will propose this tautology though; and I appologize in advance for a blatant oversimplification: if the Hillary Clinton and a faction of the Democratic party were not currently employed in the enterprise of making Obama stronger, then the entire Democratic party could focus that equal or even synergistically greater amount of energy in making McCain weaker.
As it stands I will solute you with your favorite weak analogy and end in perfect agreement; Hillary Clinton has every right to continue to behave as a dog in the manger.
Actually it was the SCOTUS
The Nader factor merely made it close enough to steal.
Similar arguments could be mad about Gore running with Lieberman and turning his back on 8 years of prosperity.
If I understand your comment, you are saying that Nader placed the question in the hands of the Supreme Court. I won’t argue then, who was at fault, as long as we agree that if Nader had not run, Gore would have been president.
In the present instance, if McCain beats Obama and a divided Democratic Party, you can blame who you want, but I’ll blame Hillary Clinton and her supporters.
In other words, you’ll divide the party.
As I’ve noted, Obama is welcome to drop out and give Hillary the nomination and save the party. She has more superdelegates. Good enough reason.
As for your Nader argument, I’d first note the Bill Clinton won in ‘92 because of Perot. I’m assuming that, in that case, you were lovin’ the third party candidate thing, but you have an inconsistent argument then. Double standard.
I would also say that it seems that Obama has a pattern of wanting to win by attrition, ie: no challengers.
I wonder if McCain will just drop out in the general if asked. Hmmm…
Whoa big fella!
Far from me to tell people what to do.
AB magna c.l. Zoology. BS Ethology. -ogy’s trump -phy’s awldeedamthyme
thas why they’re so annoying
I observe. I don’t twist & reform, tho i might try to inform. Seem to have caught ya right on the nose, donchathink? But youse spoiled the game by presupposing I was ordering when I wasn’t doing any such thing.
You can argue circles around me all day and all night. Philosophy’s a wonderous thing. Meet yerself comin’ & goin’ if ya really wind it up tight. M’betcha.
p.s., i have a bad habit of reacting to annoyance by teasing.
please forgive
P E A C E
Yes, Juno 132. GregB is correct.
Altogethernow:
P. E. A. C. E.
I know this is a difficult concept, but I love to see the Republican Party split and did particulary enjoy seening a lot of conservatives follow Perot of into the netherlands. I did not like to see liberals or the Democratic Party split sufficiently to cause Democratic losses in 1968 1980, and 2000. The principle is that I like for Democrats to win. That is not contradicted by anything I’ve said.
You’ve been asked several times about your real purpose. I must say that I’m beginning to think that your real purpose is to solidify people behind Barack Obama. Keep up the good work.
Nice spin. Now let’s see which side of the net it falls on.
Gonna have to wait awhile.
Anyone have any more of that grapefruit juice handy? FLA please. Especially Duncans. Yum.
Silly.
As for principles, I prefer to operate on universal principles, not an “okay for me, not okay for you” thing.
Boing!?!
Hey. No net. No fault.
Game. Set. Match.