Login HereThe truth is... that was the rollout of the Republican campaign in November.... that is what they will do. They will try to focus on all these issues that don't have anything to do with how you are paying your bills at the end of the month.... And there's no doubt that I will have to respond, sharply and crisply -- and then pivot to, what are we going to do about the economy and what are we going to do on the war in Iraq?
Barack's response actually isn't quite so sharp or crisp in the clip here, but that's why there's a silver lining in this line of attacks coming up in April rather than August or October -- he'll have plenty of time to practice his ripostes.
Greg Sargent at the TPM blog-hydra noted something important in writing about another portion of the same Obama response to last night's debacle on ABC:
One thing Obama has been very adept at doing: When he takes a political hit, he neutralizes it by decrying it as the very sort of negative politicking he's trying to rise above.
In this case, he did this by describing the debate as "precisely why I'm running for president -- to change that kind of politics."
The truth is a bit deeper than that. My particular fetish focus in writing about a Democratic political narrative for the past couple of years has been how to make solving political problems into proof of a candidate's moral character, rather than something separate from it (as Village denizens like George Stephanopoulous are claiming in defending the banality of the questions during the debate).
The choice Obama needs to put before the electorate is that they can keep deciding elections on who they'd rather have a beer with, who sighs less often, or who wears a flag lapel pin... or they can decide based on who's going to help them in the real issues that affect their lives. In his remarks today, Obama is showing that he knows how to make that necessary connection.
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So ‘n Zo
Hey Swopa!
wow
Amazingly, as a diarist at The Great Orange Satan has correctly noted, Obama is taking lemons and making lemonade by pointing out how eff’d up the debate was and how it just proves that the corporate media are not going to be closer to fair, much less anything like balanced.
Hello, Faux Nooz…
“The choice Obama needs to put before the electorate is that they can keep deciding elections on who they’d rather have a beer with”
I agree to an extent, but I think it’s also fair to say that this election won’t be between guys with whom one would like to have a beer. McCain’s not shrub. Clinton certainly isn’t shrub. In some respects, Obama may actually be the friendliest and most down to earth of the three… the one of the three one would most want to have a beer with… I think the issue here is, who is most like shrub, not in personality, but in policy and outlook. And that’s clearly McSame.
Obama is as guilty as anyone at these kinds of politics, and that makes him disingenuous and passive-aggressive. He takes swipes at Clinton regularly. There is a self-righteousness there that is bothersome. I’ll vote for him to keep McCain out, but the fawning over Obama as though he’s Pollyanna while Hillary and McCain and everyone else is so dirty is troubling because it’s false.
that might make a bit more sense to me if, you know, senators obama and clinton had been doing anything about the real issues that are here - right now - and that senators are hired to address.
mccain is a dangerous, ignorant, idiot - which a very good reason to vote against him. but neither obama nor clinton have actually done the kind of work that would inspire me to support either one of them.
… we have a bit of a problem creating narratives for our candidates when they refuse to live up to them.
i am sooo tired of the lamestream media!! the country’s in a downward spiral but what do we get? endless chatter about flag pins - old weathermen who sits on a board with obama, rev wright and on and on….. according to media ahem the people are not concerned about anything else…………..
fawning?Pollyanna? How has this turned into him attacking Hillary? Did I miss someting in Sopa’s post? Isn’t this about the right wing attack machine and how he sees how he will have to reframe the right wing attack?
And he needs to ask voters is: “How do you feel way of selecting presidents has worked out?”
You are right about McCain. We also need to be really loud about the mean and “silly season” that is permeating the press. If Gibson thought that was a fascinating debate, he is in a different world. He also controls the microphone. And Hannity has been on that Ayres story for more that a week, talking about knowing terrorist, the McCarthy era, etc etc etc. All ugly and pretty pointless, except to slander and pitch red herrings. This is the sludge that should be called out all the time. I do not dare listen to Rush anymore. Is he irrelevant? I do not know; I cannot stand the stink. Where is the pushback? Then we have a loudmount R. Rhodes calling HRC a “whore.” This level of dialogue is not part of helping anyone. We need a voice and forum that examines and brings sunshine to the slime who use the microphones. That 30 minutes last night was on the American flag (no, I don’t wear one) and the bitter comment (yes, it had a kernel of truth) suggests all the sets should be turned off. Get the net or the gong. Looks like the comments for ABC have been quite effective. Maybe enough to make someone take notice? There’s that hope again.
agreed. I would love to have seen both of them ignore these silly questions and instead pivot and say, now…about the economy, about the war on Iraq, etc.
oops, sorry Swopa, I spelled your name incorrectly.
It won’t matter whether people want to have a beer with Obama or not. The economy and the dollar are going to be so far down on election day and the occupation is going to be as fruitless as ever that even Kucinich could win this year. McCain’s brand sucks and after this year nobody is going to believe them when they say that Republicans are better at running the economy and can make intelligent decisions about our defense.
I agree with Swopa that Obama is learning on the job. We have been so conditioned by the mindless stupidity of George Bush that it is a shock to see some one who can learn from their situations and improve as time goes along. Obama is the Anti-Bush when it comes to evaluating situations and learning from his past mistakes.
the problem, i see, is that neither of them have done much, let alone led, on the issue of the war or the economy.
imo, if our media did their job and asked good (and hard) questions - like amy goodman did when she interviewed bill clinton before the 2000 election - both obama and clinton would look pretty lame.
Without offering any kind of proof, Stephie and Charlie said they based their questions on what (real) people are saying/asking. Prove it, Boys. I think you are just making s–t up so that you can justify your tabloid style debate.
Maybe they were all in on it….Steph/Clintons/Obama…..dream team. I wouldn’t put it past any of them.
It is true that getting this out there now is a good thing, because the Puke’s trying to pull it out late in the year will get….”yawns”….
I just haven’t slept at night since that bitter thing…/s
I don’t know that I agree with that. given that we haven’t had a media since the 1990’s, i factor them completely out of the equation.
Now while neither is as liberal as I would like, I have to let that go and concentrate on what we do have as a possible nomination. But the longer that the swarmy silliness takes front page, that is what they keep responding to instead of our complaints about an energy policy not going far enough, or a ecnomic strategy that is not radical enough etc.
Swopa:
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
david gregory has been a disappointment in the slot given him by misnbc…..imo of course - its been said he’s auditioning for tweety’s slot
damn Bill, this is about the media, not hillary
It’s ALL about the Clintons. They’ll do whatever it takes to prevail.
yeah, but let’s remember why we have stupid debates. it’s because the parties decided that was the way they wanted to do it.
remember this from the League of Women Voters (1988)?
my bold.
yes, i’ve been listening to last night’s debate this afternoon. hasn’t done wonders for my frustration level.
I have newfound respect for Rachel … sitting for an hour with these 4 idjits … Joe Scar can’t believe that anyone would say that Obama was less than terrible last night … note to Joe Scar … you suck every day …
Hi everybody !
I really think this is all Kabuki….Bill is making the case that Dems are fighters..only he’s on HRC’s turf…and, well Obama is doing the same thing with Michelle backing him up…
Either one of them is gonna eat McCain up…
Unless someone is having an affair…they have nothing substantial to attack the Dems with. The Dems have e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. that has gone wrong in the last 8 years to sling at the Pukes…It all happened on Bush’s watch…and McSame is the same….
This is just target practice…smoke and mirrors….
Actually no, I hadn’t hit double digits in age yet :) But I totally get what you are saying but I can’t help to think that the sinking happened both in party and in media
It doesn’t matter if Hillary or McCain win. Either way the NeoCons stay in charge. That Weather Underground stupid statement that Hillary milked was another Bosnia lie.
My Mom had David Duke supporters on her block. According to Hillary that makes her guilty by proximity. That will be Hillary’s line of reasoning in her decision-making. She also lied, again. The only people the WU killed were three of their own when their bomb-making went awry. I guess she will hold eight year olds responsible for something of which they know nothing. Is the same person who puts children first? Again, Hillary self-revealed.
Obama, over and over, has taken the high road. He keeps his dignity. Bet he never called his wife a trollop and addresses her as “You c..t” as does McCain.
100 - 29 = 71
71% don’t want the Pukes.
Selise,
I’m surprised you have this point of view. Yes, Ned Lamont opposed the war - but so has Obama. And certainly Obama has a lot more experience - as a community organizer, State Senator and US Senator.
I can see a lot of the same qualities in Obama as I saw in Lamont. I’m surprised you and RevDeb, who worked so hard for Lamont, feel so differently.
Bring back the League of Women Voters!
The Dems are using up the Puke’s ammo, but keeping their’s dry.
ABC doing CYA on its debate last night. Some reporter talking about “a grueling round of questions about Obama’s associations”, i.e. the nearly hour long smear that went on. They show Obama’s staements today about “45 minutes” before any real question was asked. They mention thousands of emails but don’t say how many thousands. They show a few negative of the debate but then of course a couple positive ones. This is deceptive since virtually all the emails they got were negative and in fact extremely negative. They then go on to Bill Clinton’s old comment that if you don’t want to play rough you shouldn’t run, etc. (The underlying message being that Obama should, and voters, should stop whining.) Gibson made no statement about or apology for his own role in the debates. No mention either of the crowd booing him and Stephanopoulos. The segment ended with him saying that all responses are appreciated and that the conversation goes on at their web site, you know the same thing he would say after a story on hemorrhoids. Essentially ABC News and Charlie Gibson are basically saying to us to F*ck off.
either candidate could insist on a decent debate - for example to go back to having them organized by the LWV (who would pick better moderators), instead of the campaigns. that they do not do so, makes, imo, last night at least partially their own damn fault.
seconded
Yeah, well we’re all telling ABC and Gibson to F-off too…*g*
did i miss where obama has led on ending the war?
i supported lamont because he promised to do what obama has not done if he were elected to the senate.
apples and oranges - lamont was running for the senate. obama (and clinton) are already there.
Don’t see why the media was ever involved in the first place given that there is always some sort of bias but lesson learned (I hope)
That is my point. It was on purpose. They are “acting” out the charges that the Pukes are planning to throw at them. They are diffusing the bombs before they can fire ‘em.
I’m getting popcorn.
Maybe. But they’re pretty good shots.
I’d love to know what they’re thinking today. Probably too arrogant to get it and are doing a Cheney “So?”
Do we know this hasn’t happened? I don’t.
Other than Murtha, I think he was the next one to call for an end to the war a couple of years ago..and he has never waivered about his stance on the war.
p.s. if lamont had been elected, i would have celebrated to have lieberman out - but if he had proceeded to do as little as obama has to end the war, i would have felt my trust in his campaign promises had been betrayed.
that said, when it comes to accountability and the war, do not get me started on clinton.
Next time Scarborough starts on that crap, Rachel needs to say (sweetly) “well Joe, I know that you’d have been sensitive to a question from a debate moderator about that dead girl in your office…”
If that didn’t shut his stupid ass up, then his tool status would be not only confirmed, but confirmed into generations of Scarboroughs yet unborn.
((( selise )))
You mean he’s doing an autobiographical piece today?
Yeah, but it’s a different set of targets this time. People are wise to the Pukes. Their shots won’t work, because their policies have failed right and left…everybody knows that..even the 29%rs that won’t admit it…know it. They all drive cars and have kids and have lost their houses and are struggling with credit card payments with kids that want a new this and a new that every two seconds…
America knows…we can’t “afford” more Pukes, period.
I don’t have any data but I would bet that everytime Bill opens his piehole the Republicans get thousands, if not tens of thousands, of online donations
*sigh* I can’t wait until this primary is over. Each day that this thing drags on, McCain goes out there and pitches his bullshit with no one to call him on it. (He must make some kick ass ribs) While Mccain is recapturing the pissed repugs and wooing the independents, the dems are going after each other…just great
Thanks for digging this up. Do you know if anyone has asked them about hosting the debates again? I hope so. Theirs were always so much better.
Bob in HI
never waivered?
did i dream all those blank checks? the ones that weren’t fought?
The whole post is about Obama getting it and portraying him as taking the high road and opposing it. I’m just pointing out that it’s a bit disingenuous of him and blindly fawning of his supporters since it isn’t true. I’m not even criticizing Obama for his slams against Clinton; that is what happens in campaigns, but Im tired of him acting holier than thou and as though he doesn’t do it. He does.
Hiya Jofish !
I think Rachel bides her time with these jokers ’til she can go on KO …
Most telling is that Joe Scar wears more makeup than the other 4 combined … and while I’m at it …
(Marguerita anyone? *g*) what the heck is with Ford’s lips ?!!
they can go fuck themselves.
to quote jon stewart: “they are hurting america”
This has been the crux of the problem from the beginning.
The end of the Fairness Doctrine :
I think sniping and griping about either Democratic candidate is out of place now. Whoever is nominated will get a more brutal treatment in the general. I think hoping that the candidates can pivot and frame and discredit the bad debate production and management in real time while also waging their campaigns is unrealistic.
I think there needs to be an organized public response to the farce the debates have become. The media organizations, and specific individuals should be presented with an indictment and a bill of particulars and a demand for a response. There should be a public demand for accountability.
There should be an organized effort to scrap the current debate system and replace them with a more responsible, publicly run system. Before the general.
Below are my suggestions from previous post today.
Even if the media and particular incompetent and unprofessional individuals cannot be stripped of ability to subvert elections, there is a duty to raise public awareness before the upcoming general election.
——-
A public conference is needed with publicity.
In addition to bloggers and other public interest organizations, need independent experts in journalism and specific topic areas evaluating the problems.
A report, with executive summary, specific questions to speific organizations and individuals, with a request for a public response.
A proposal for change, centerpiece would be scrapping current system.
Petitions.
Relevent products (signature lists, proposals, charges and requests for repsonses) presented to
-all major responsible media organizations,
-relevant professional organizations
-Congress
Also, the public reaction to debate, for example, the two moderators being booed, and the overwhelming negative response to ABC, which has been documented on the internet should be a newsworthy items. If other broadcast and cable media, newspapers and magazines do not cover, they should also be contacted and asked why they do not consider the public reaction newsworthy.
i haven’t heard of either campaign asking for the LWV to organize a debate…. have you?
Joe’s all defensive….attacking Rachel…*sshole…”I don’t mean to be condescending but”…Yes you do….
STFU
Thanks for the reminder about what happened with the League of Women Voters, I was also too young to be aware of the issues. I think I knew once upon a time that they withdrew, but had forgotten.
I got to agree. I’ve lost some respect for him since he started this show. I’ve been watching it now, and I can’t figure out if the press is just way too shallow (except for Rachel, who I consider perceptive) or we’re just way too deep for them. Really, I just don’t get how they think a rehash of those stale questions was worthwhile, or why anyone wouldn’t just be sick about the stupidity at a further discussion of jewelry. Makes you want to say, “Enough!”
You didn’t answer the question. What did this post have to do t=with Obama supposedly attacking Hillary? This was a bout the repugs attack machine in the GE. Can we just talk about strategy and what he will have to do etc.?
I could only stomach 5 minutes of that show … Harold spoke for 3 minutes on one breath … some call him long winded … *g*
if my complaints about either candidate are untrue or unfair, i hope you will call me out and correct me.
but no way am i pulling my punches because they have a “D” after their name.
There needs to be public protest over the debates, This one and some previous ones. And individuals should be pointed out, critiqued, and a response should be demanded.
Public should be reminded of legal dictum that absence of any reply is an implicity admission of guilt.
He did not give blank checks. He supported funding for the troops, because they are over there….but he has always been clear and he tried to put through legislation to get them out. He has known all along that he couldn’t singlehandedly get them out. HRC gave blank checks — AUMF and Kyl/Lieberman.
Juslin, Gregory may be auditioning and maybe Scarborough is too. Joe is on three or four days a week, spouting his right wing venom.
Don’t forget that Gregory was quite happy as a “back-up dancer to MC Rove.”
Not much respect for me to lose for him after that little escapade.
Yeah I’m hip. That also signaled the end of real investigative reporting and news gathering to be replaced with entertainews..all fluff no substance
FDL 101, Rule 7: Please don’t feed … *g*
1,816 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Swopa and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“My particular focus in writing about a Democratic political narrative for the past couple of years has been how to make solving political problems into proof of a candidates moral character.”
This statement is one of the best articulations I have ever heard of the essence of politics and the genius in the idea of American democracy as understood by the founding fathers. And that is why this particular post of yours is so compelling at this moment. The real core of this post lies in the entire statement by Obama as presented in the video clip…watch and listen as he articulates his strategy of takin’ on the attacks and then pivoting and turnin’ those attacks on themselves and into a clear argument for matters of substance. He actually describes the process and then applies it in the context of his candidacy and last night’s “debate”.
This guy is gunna be the last person standin’ in front of the American people when the polls close in November…and that’s what is drivin’ the fascist oligarchy absolutely nuts.
Thanx again Swopa for your work and your intellectual integrity in your offerings to us…you get a Norske Citizenship Award, keep on keepin’ on.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND REMEMEBR WE’RE GUNNA BE CALLED ON TO STAND UP AND WE BETTER BE READY!!
My position is that there are more many very much more important issues that which Democratic candidates run in the general. If you disagree with that, well I guess we disagree then. That is OK. We can both make our cases.
The Dead Woman worked for Joe. The ME was a friend of JEB’s. There were problems with the ME and his report. Bill Ayers never worked for Obama. Who is more closely linked with bad shit? Obama or Scarborough Fair?
You shouldn’t. They have to remain accountable to us for their policies, positions, etc.
NPR improved its coverage of the debate since his morning. Then it ignored the negative reaction to the debate entirely. This afternoon it did mention some of the negative response. I think this was largely in response to Obama’s speech about the debate. NPR still didn’t do much investigation of just what a hatchet job the moderators tried to do. Professional journalism seems professional mostly in how its members cover for each other.
Tweety said it best on Bill Maher one night … “We’re playing checkers and they’re laying Chess.” He should have realized that “we” refers to the MSM and “they” refers to the general public.
oh, i agree that clinton has more responsibility wrt to iraq. but that doesn’t absolve obama.
and we’ll just have to disagree about funding the troops by funding the war.
((petrocelli))
bom dia!! How the heck have you been?
Yep.
In my opinion, wesgpc, C-Span and League of Women Voters should be in charge of the debates. LWV used to do them and one year, they tried to insist on a reasonable time frame and number of contests and, I think maybe it was Reagan who balked, and they’ve been “organized” by the networks ever since.
((((( WB )))))
It’s spring in Toronto (finally) … I got to enjoy a fine day before the old Ball and Chain
made me start the yard work … *g*
O/T Senate Votes For Don Young Earmark Probe
the request in the house has been sitting there getting moldy for over a year.
Come on newt … at least toss in a free upgrade … *g*
Is the snow gone yet?
The biggest statement they could make is to hold the debate, post the RULES, and when no one shows, do it again.
Good on your better half *g*
I need to get out there and do some planting but we have some painters coming and I didn’t want them trampling all over my wee garden.
Can’t say I have had any for Gregory for a long time. As I was saying earlier today, all of these guys are millionaires or multi-millionaires. They are not reporters. They are spokespeople for the rich, i.e. themselves.
Can you think of one? *G*
I don’t disagree with you, really. We do have to hold their feet to the fire. I just remember when he tried to put through something to stop the war, and it immediately got shot down in the congressional climate. Congress has been so horrendous in general…I guess my point is that if you can’t stop it, at least you have to make sure that the troops have what they need…and I personally am not one for just yanking them out overnight. I don’t think that is rational at this point. I think they need to bring the troops out carefully and as quickly and safely as possible. I also, personally, believe that the chaos amongst the Iraqis is going to make it difficult and really dangerous…but it needs to stop.
Yes, thank heavens … it got as high as 5 feet … forgot what color the grass was … *g*
thanks Petrocelli.
listening to last night’s debate has just made me crazy.
Good AP story on Obama’s reaction in NC today about the debate. On ABC’s own debate blog, the comments are 8:1 against ABC for the debate debacle last night. Bill Clinton should realize. It’s not only Obama who is criticizing the debate, it is the vast majority of the people who watched it hoping in vain for the two moderators to do their jobs properly.
Yeah, upgrade Bush43 to Obama ! *g*
Mc Giggolo has serious money
Since James Hensley’s death eight years ago, the distributorship has nearly doubled, holding a significant portion of the Phoenix-area market share. It has 700 employees and annual revenue of about $300 million. Mrs. McCain has approved the buyout of another distributorship, helping bring sales last year to 23 million cases of beer.
Mrs. McCain (who can tell a beer’s freshness by tasting it, according to her daughter Meghan) declines to say what percentage of the company she owns or its value. Industry experts estimate her stake at about $100 million.
alls i’m saying is this - we get right and “center right” voices on these chatfests…. i’d like to see some left and center left voices on the tee vee on a daily basis…. i keep looking to see if it’ll happen - so far uhh uhh….. one bright spot ? KO!!!
:-)
how you doin?
yup the McStains are BILLIONAIRES…300 mill a year
That would be a step in the right direction.
yes.
and that the candidates know they have to pander to them before all others breaks my heart and makes me furious all at the same time.