Eighth in a series
As some of you know from the comment threads, this past Saturday I attended the Association of the Bar of the City of New York's Council on Criminal Justice retreat entitled "A Summit on the Prosecution Function." Senator Sheldon Whitehouse was both a panelist and the luncheon speaker and he graciously respond to my request for a copy of his speech, so that I might share some of the highlights with you.
The event as a whole was characterized by a bluntness and refreshing willingness to call bullshit and rip the fig leaves off of some of the more egregious behavior to come out of our system of justice in the last few years. Senator Whitehouse's speech fit right into that, it was blunt -- in the good way, it wasted no time shilly shallying politely making excuses in the name of not further damaging the Department of Justice. Nope, it cut straight to the chase, right on the first page:
While I won’t delve into the long litany of frightful stories regarding the tenure of former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, I would like to touch on one simple point: the Attorney General simply did not seem to respect the institution that he was tasked to serve. I remember when I first took office as Attorney General of little Rhode Island, how strongly I felt the responsibility and honor of that office. I don’t think he ever felt that way. I think he felt he had seized more territory for George Bush.
He then went on to give a little report card that mentioned some reforms that AG Mukasey has instituted and to note some improvements of tone that the Senator has noticed since Muksaey took office. However, the Senator noted, despite these improvements, "much remains undone."
At which point, the good Senator launched into the topic of the Yoo memos. He had several great pickups. For example: that definiton of torture Yoo used, you know "equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure ....", that one? Do you know where it comes from? 42 USC Section 1395w-22, a Medicare reimbursement statute! I kid you not.
And how did we get to the point where the highly respected Office of Legal Counsel was using Medicare reimbursement statutes – statutes utterly irrelevant to the interrogation of suspected terrorists – to justify its legal analysis on this issue?
Making matters worse, this “legal analysis” was used to justify the legality of a certain coercive interrogation technique that regrettably has become familiar to us all, “water-boarding.”
Water-boarding has a long and sordid history in the annals of tyrant regimes, and brutal occupations. It was used by the Spanish Inquisition, by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, by the French in Algeria, by the Japanese in World War II, and by military dictators of Latin America.
The technique ordinarily involves strapping a captive in a reclining position, heels above head, putting a cloth over his face and pouring water over the cloth to create the feeling of suffocation and drowning. Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.), who was held captive for more than five years by the North Vietnamese, has said this of water-boarding: “It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.”
The United States government said the same thing. Americans, on behalf of military tribunals, initiated war crimes prosecutions against Japanese soldiers who water-boarded American aviators in World War II.
In fact, the United States government itself brought a civil rights prosecution against a Texas sheriff who water-boarded prisoners. The indictment asserted that the defendants conspired to “subject prisoners to a suffocating ‘water torture’ ordeal in order to coerce confessions.” The sheriff and his deputies were convicted by a jury and the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit affirmed. At sentencing, the presiding judge admonished the former sheriff that “[t]he operation down there would embarrass the dictator of a primitive country.”
It is at this point that Senator Whitehouse brought up the matter of US v. Lee which we discussed yesterday afternoon. After that, a more chilling point:
I see the torture memo as part of a disquieting pattern at the Office of Legal Counsel. As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I have had the opportunity to review secret OLC opinions related to the warrantless wiretapping program. Those opinions are also deeply troubling. I was so offended by three legal theories contained in those memos, that I fought to have them declassified and brought to light. Those theories are, as declassified by the Director of National Intelligence:
1) An executive order cannot limit a President. There is no constitutional requirement for a President to issue a new executive order whenever he wishes to depart from the terms of a previous executive order. Rather than violate an executive order, the President has instead modified or waived it;
2) The President, exercising his constitutional authority under Article II, can determine whether an action is a lawful exercise of the President’s authority under Article II; and
3) The Department of Justice is bound by the President’s legal determinations.
Point I=Emptywheel's Pixie Dust.
Suffice it simply to say that the first proposition -- that executive compliance with executive orders is optional -- turns the Federal Register into a screen of falsehood, behind whose phony regulations lawless programs can operate in secret. (Remember that a regulation has the “force and effect of law.”) Contrast the second proposition -- that Article II gives the President the authority to define his Article II powers -- with the famous language of Marbury v. Madison, that “it is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is.” And compare the third proposition -- that the President tells the Department of Justice what the law is, and not vice versa -- to the famous statement, uttered by Richard Nixon: “If the President does it, that means it is not illegal.”
As you know, I was nearly apoplectic when I heard AG Mukasey, a few mere weeks after his confirmation hearings, say that you could not say that waterboarding was legally torture, though it would seem like torture if performed upon his own person. I find myself wondering, was Mukasey telegraphing that whether or not he believed it to be torture, he could not say it was torture, because the President, pursuant to point 2 above has declared that it is not torture, and therefore, pursuant to point 3 above, no one at the Department of Justice can contradict the President?
Does it come down to something as stupid, foolish and illogical as that?
No wonder they don't want to turn over that memo, even though it's not classified, even though non-classified OLC opinions used to be published so they could provide guidance to everybody.
All I know is, if they ever release that remaining memo, we're gonna need a hundred part series to dissect all the things wrong with it. Anyway, thank you Senator Whitehouse for all you have done, all you are doing and all you will do in the future to preserve and restore the rule of law in this country.
Photo of Senator Whitehouse from ActBlue
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Update: Selise is hosting the full text of Senator Whitehouse's speech here.
[Editor's note: The mid-post photo, by takomabibelot, features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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RULE OF LAW!
so!
coffee’s ready - hold out your cups…
Thanks so much, LHP, for putting this together. And to Sen. Whitehouse for giving the speech — would that it had been televised, so that more folks could have seen it. More like this, please, from every member of Congress…
that coffee’s bitter!
no kidding! maybe next time LHP goes to an event like this, we can send her with a video camera?
I’ve read in the past (perhaps it was Senator Chaffee who pointed it out) that Whitehouse’s votes have been disappointing. Is he another Specter, who talks a good game, but folds in the crux?
Looseheadprop and Sheldon Whitehouse!?, it certainly is a good morning!
lhp sez:
Amen.
So why is the Yoo memos, Condi,Darth Colin etc approving torture, Bush saying he knew and approved all happening now?
Is something big on torture coming down the pipe?
Thank you, Prof prop for so much work on this topic. You make it possible for someone of my limited legal knowledge to understand this murky shit.
They’re going to blame Medicaire for torture.
If you could see all the wobbly out of focus too much background noise footage I have taken of Littleprop’s school plays and piano recitals and horse shows, every one completely unusable for their intended purpose, you would not say that.
Further these are the kinds of events where you need permission to video, which would mean explaining why I want it, which would mean outing myself.
Life as an anonymous blogger has its restrictions, Sigh
Good morning LHP
When was this?
In part because of the ACLU lawsuit, that has pried loose two of the Yoo memos so far. In part because of the telecom immunity debate. And I think there is a snowball rolling downhill from those memos that as it gathers mass, we will learn more and more.
Yeah is the Senator going to do something, is there a plan.
Senators have to get a super majority to agree on anything in order to get past Bush’s veto.
I suggest threatening the funding of several GOP pet projects if they don’t vote our way.
Good
lhp, how did the group respond to the Senator’s address?
Are you referring to Yoo’s use of the Medicaid reimbursement statute for his definition? I read the the relevant portion of the Medicaid law (so NOT my area of practice) it has to do with when you can go to the ER without a prior approval.
So basically he ’s saying anything that wouldn’t require rushing you to the Hospital with sirens blaring, ain’t torture.
They are digging a new deeper circle in hell for this.
his votes on telco immunity have been very disappointing. not only has he voted for bills that include immunity - he voted (in committee) against stripping immunity from the senate intelligence committee fisa bill.
too soon to tell - and there are, imo, reasons to be concerned - but i have lots of hope that he will not fall into the specter hole of fake concern. did you see the speech he made on the senate floor after spending the time to read classified documents and to get some of what he found (on presidential “pixie dust”) declassified?
http://emptywheel.firedoglake......ite-house/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iFW.....playnext=1
!984? It was in the post from the day before yesterday. US v. Lee. It was IIRC during the Reagan administration
fair enough.
how about audio recordings - do people (other than anonymous bloggers) make them?
Thanks. It was the telco immunity votes I had vaguely remembered.
I am not impressed by speeches (which is one reason why I am not enthused about Obama). Talk is cheap. We need action. We’ll have to keep an eye on Whitehouse.
watched Jon Stewart ask that very question of Goldsmith last night
even before I encountered the legal eagles here, I understood lawyers like to sound circumspect, nuanced on certain legal points but was soooo disappointed in Goldsmith’s responses - he was much more forthcoming in the prev Frontline piece -
Mornin’ All
Very positively.
The Association of the Bar of the City of NY has developed a reputation for being pretty into civil liberties, so some folks think of it as pretty lefty. However, it is one of the the premier Bar Associations in the country (if you are ever in NYC just stop in to see the building, it a stunning. Very Gilded Age all marble and mahogany) it’s on East 44th Street across the street from the Algonquin Hotel and down the block from the also very amazing looking NY Yacht Club) and is controlled by all the big law firms, which tend to be more conservative, so internal it’s not as liberal as it seems from the outside.
So, it wasn’t a Dem room by any stretch. What is was, was room full of people who believe in the criminal justice system and don’t believe that politics should influence prosecution–what a novel concept!
The Senator hung around afterwards for a very long time answering people’s questions. He wasn’t one of those prima donna drive by speakers.
Good morning, Cbl.
Morning LHP and all upon the lake,
It’s the framing and it’s not water boarding like surf boarding,it’s partial drowning or attempted murder.
Call a spade a spade. And a good question is does water boarding fail when they go to far and actually do drown some one? Has anybody asked that question how many drowned?
PEACE NOW DAMN IT !
Haven’t been around much lately, so please forgive if it’s been discussed already, but Sen. Obama gets asked the big question re: potential crimes in the Bush White House.
mornin’ baby
LHP,
You have mentioned outing yourself before. I certainly would not want you to compromise your personal “safety” economic or otherwise. What are the implications for outing yourself? Would you lose access to the “inside” so to speak? Or is it an actual personal safety issue?
The whole concept is troubling when someone can’t participate in “things” because of the problems implied by being “out”.
I am for an open society and this sort of issue seems to further the notion of secrecy, even when it is serving a good cause.
you know, the definition of torture by this administration is so simple to disect it is amazing
I am going to cut and paste something I wrote to someone who supported the president a long time ago, I don’t have time to edit it for this thread, out of batteries, see all later but here it is
there are so many forms of torture that risk neither life nor limb it is impossible to enumerate
we can force them naked on the floor freezing to the brink of consciousness, but we don’t let them sleep, their toes feel like they will break off if we move them…we can pour water that’s even room temperature and it will feel as if it’s boiling their skin off their bones, though no mark will be left
I have no idea what we’ve done, nor do you, but it is a fact the administration has endorsed torture and even claimed they had the right to it.
when congress passed the law saying he cannot, he ignored their law and claimed that he could
you think the test of torture is loss of life or limb, I am telling you this is in no way the test of torture, nor would anyone even presume to make that claim…unless you are trying to forgive yourself from conducting that torture
I can drill into the root of your tooth, risk neither life nor limb, you will be in such pain you would rather take your own life, and you will surely know torture
I can drip water on your head, drop by drop, risk neither life nor limb, and you will surely know torture
I can pull your fingernails out on at a time, risk neither life nor limb
I can have savages sodomize your daughter, your son, your wife…in front of you, I will not suffer you any pain at all, yet you will know the full measure of torture
I can have savages sodomize you with a 2 by four, in front of your daughter, your wife, your son…this will be torture to each of you
and beyond any of that, it’s a fact you have no clue if people have lost life or limb from what we’ve done, you wouldn’t know, nobody would know
what we have done went far beyond what the military was willing to accept, this is also a fact
there is no doubt, you have changed your opinion…now that you’ve found it’s your president, why his torture is fine, it’s Saddam’s torture you were talking about
I on the one hand think the military have MUCH better choices for success then this administration
you think this administration making decisions that fly in the face of their advice is the best direction
this administration’s decisions already have a track record
the decisions have created more terrorism, more terrorists, their decisions have turned moderates into radicals and radicals into heroes…this is a fact, reported by the presidents own agencies, it cannot be denied…in the very best light, his decisions have bread terrorism and hatred toward America
Not that I know of. he gave me the full text of the speech as a “word” document, but it’s not hosted anywhere that I know of. I can email it to you if you want it.
Good morning from L.A., LHP. Been looking forward to yr. piece on the Retreat & the Whitehouse keynote speech since you mentioned you’d be writing one.
Now to turn off the porch lights, make some coffee, & have a read…
I’ve attended presentations at the NY Bar association on animal rights and the law.
I think they need to kick Muckasy out of the club for his positions on torture.
Wow. Speechless.
would it be ok if i posted it for others to read? i could just pull the text and use it to create an html file (like i do with hugh’s list). i’d love to read it myself, but i’m also all into making the primary documents as widely available as possible….
I’m not quite awake yet but didn’t Whitehouse vote yeah on some of the bad FISA legislation?
He has taken action, he got the 3 bullet points above declassified, so we now know about the pixie dust.
He has exposed A HUGE amount of information about the USA firing scandal through the Committee hearing process. And although he is not openly critical of Mukasey himself yet (he has praised Mukasey for several real actual reforms which Mukasey has instituted), he is not part of the Kumbaya all is forgiven now that Alberto is gone crowd. He appears to be intent on fixing the Department and bringing it back to its former stature.
I see from some of the other comments that were made while I was posting mine that I am correct that Whitehouse voted for Teleco immunity. Not good. I wonder why he did that?
Jeez Louise! Speaking from an emotional perspective, reading your post, LHP, was a gut-churner. For all the obvious reasons, e.g., the United States of America appropriately likened to the Khmer Rouge. Ohmygawd. But here’s the most chilling thing of all. The press doesn’t give a rip. The populace at large seems not to give a rip. We have descended into madness, and no one is immune from this rule of lawlessness. But it’s barely registering on the outrage Richter Scale. Congressional leaders steadfastly tell us impeachment is too complicated, too expensive, too distracting and they don’t have the votes. I. Don’t. Care. BushCo has had a free pass for seven years. And when George II defiantly stated he approved all of this, but for the blogosphere, he got a giant ho-hum. Yes, Conyers wants to chat up the Yoo memo. Urgh. As you can see, I can barely articulate my outrage. Who(m) do we lean on in concert? It’s time. It’s beyond time. Impeachment now. Through ranting. Maybe.
Literally the same question? No shit? I wrote this on Monday because I got my slot time mixed up and thought this was going to run yesterday morning, so I didn’t get it from him. I was also asleep by the time TDS came on.
But I guess great minds think alike. Also there is a difference between interviews on TV magazine shows like Frontline and 20-20, vs. Live TV. On the magazine shows, if you say something dumb, they let you do another “take”–at least the nice producers have done that for me.
live TV, you don’t get a do over and I think that makes you more tense and less open.
a note on the side
Here’s emptywheel’s definition of Pixie Dust:
(OLC = Office of Legal Counsel)
Emptywheel covered a speech by Whitehouse in December that covered the same OLC opinions. (Bush decides his own power, Bush tells DOJ what the law is)
She included links to video/transcript on the Senators site.
for all we know that was the price he paid for getting the declassifications he wanted. or maybe he doesn’t care about accountabilty if he thinks he can “fix” things (if that’s his thinking, imo he’s fooling himself). but whatever - eh’s not perfect… but so far, he’s very, very good.
let’s keep our eyes peeled and our thinking skeptical - and let’s also appreciate the amazingly good stuff he has done so far.
that’s my take. ymmv.
jeez
how much bigger can it get?
The “principals” talked about it at length. The Resident “approved” it all. Spurious secret “legality” memos were used for justification. People were tortured and some died as a result of these “policies”. Our civil protections have eroded to nil as a direct result of these actions.
And didn’t every one of them deny they had any prior knowledge of this? Didn’t a few low level Military figures pretty much take take the rap?
I HOPE nothing else comes down the pipe…
If there could be an award given out for “Best Incoming Senate Freshman” IMHO Sheldon Whitehouse would win hands down.
It is clearly apparent that he does his homework for the committees he sits on, he’s smart, and he doesn’t seem to have gotten “Washingtonitis” yet either….always thinking about higher office or the tv cameras, or giving self serving interviews, nope…..just shows up aand does a good job every day.
Thanks for sharing his speech
inspired by marcy’s post, i made a youtube from the realplayer video posted at the senator’s website (with permission from his staff - i asked after i’d already done it though) - it was only my second youtube, and over 9000 people watched at least part of it. made it to the top 10 news youtubes of the week and stayed there for several days.
that was a fantastic statement from the senate floor. recommend it to everyone.
I think Bernie is a contender too.
Re: Outing.
When I was in Law School we had a mandatory moot court argument that we had to do. It just so happened that I got scheduled to argue on the very same day for which I had tickets to see (it was either King Tut or the Scythian Gold) exhibit at the Met Museum of Art. You had to order the tickets months in advance so, if I didn’t go on that day, I would not go at all.
So, I went to the museum in the morning wearing the suit I would wear when I argued at 2 PM. I left the exhibit on time, but made a wrong turn and got lost in the corridors of the museum and made myself late.
When I got to the argument no time to spare and rushed in. Surprisingly, the argument went incredibly well. During the critique the judges said they could not tell that I was rushed or flustered. They had Only ONE major criticism–They said you should never make YOURSELF the issue.
You are there to represent your client’s point of view, not your own. The court should not be influenced by who YOU are except with respect for having a reputation for good quality legal research and reasoning.
So, you should not wear button or have stickers on your binder that espouse any causes or personal beliefs of your own.
You see, in my haste, I had forgotten to take of the button that the Met gives you to show that you have paid your admission.
I never forgot that. I briefly ran for office once. My kid came home from school one day crying because her classmates had heard their parents discussing a policy position of mine in a negative way.
I don’t want my clients or my kid paying a price for who I am. I would not be able to write so freely and openly –and there would be a whole lot less swear words. It would not be fun to read.
Good morning all and thank you LHP,
I became a big Sheldon Whitehouse fan when he displayed the number of contacts between the DOJ and the WH thru the use of just a couple of charts. I called his office to show my appreciation. His FISA vote for immunity threw me a curveball. I don’t know about backstage machinations in these matters, but my gut says he’s on our side and only the journey will hopefully tell the whole story some day.
So, is Senator Whitehouse on anybody’s VP shortlist?
I for one would love to be reading the entire speech also, and a transcript of the retreat panels too, if one was made & is available.
Yr. analysis up top is excellent, LHP. Did Whitehouse reveal any further thoughts on the Yoo memo or anything else related during panel discussions?
Prof -
here ya go about a minute 20 in
rest of the interview
Good Golly , you’re up early
Bush and Cheney and Yoo, et al, are not the problem. They are clearly tyrannical despots who care not one whit about American principles, let alone humanitarian principles.
They are who they are, and it’s been obvious to many of us from the beginning while others bought their BS disguise of the flag and God.
The problem is with the enablers who do know better but refuse to do anything about them: namely, the majority of Republicans in Congress (and the Democrats for not arguing forcefully enough that something has to be done!).
Give me your email, I’ll send it now and if you would give us the link, I’ll update it into the post
As some jester recently observed, it is a good thing we are not hosting the Olympics this summer, because we would have to boycott ourselves.
although i didn’t “get it” for a long time, this has been one of the things i’ve learned to appreciate about the ‘net - that it doesn’t matter “who” a person is (including education and all the other social signifiers we filter what we hear through). what matters is the content of what we write - whether as a blogger or as a commenter.
And the MSM that forgets it is supposed to maintain an “adversarial” (not “colaborative”) relationship with the government.
True
Which begs the question:biggest disappointment for those that had ‘high hopes’ for the incoming(fill in the blank) Freshman senator
at gmail dot com. i think you also have it from when you contacted hugh?
Oh cripes, don’t even get me started on the complete failure of the press.
Morning pups. Whitehouse is doing the Lord’s work. Will it do any good? What gets me is that the Rethugs are no longer making any pretense of telling the truth. They just lie straight out in your face and when you look surprised, give you the Cheney ’so?’ I saw on Booman yesterday that one of their shills likened the Nuremberg trials to ’show trials.’ It will probably stick.
What is discouraging is that the thugs have truly mastered the art of ruling by managing the beliefs and expectations of a possible majority of citizens who don’t have the time or stamina to inform themselves and think things through, and have therefore to rely on their ‘gut’ to make decisions that affect all of us. I don’t know how we get out of this. They are succeeding by destroying the legitimacy of people with professional training. ‘We don’t need no stinking rule of law’ for lawyers; liberal activists for preachers who don’t toe the line; prissy professors, etc. It’s nihilism, pure, simple, and mortal.
also… wrt to “outing” oneself. there are lots of reasons to want to protect one’s privacy - but ultimately i think we all ought to have that right. just as i don’t want the fbi going through my personal life.
Hey! Maybe that’s the number one reason to get Hillary in there! They HATE her. They’ll continue their sycophantic ways with McCain and Obama, but we’ll be sure to hear about every burp and fart Hillary lets escape!
Taking my emotional blathering self for a walk. Toodles.
I have a hunch that there are a couple folks up on Capitol Hill who would love to pry that memo loose so as to be able to see what you, Christy, and the cast of lawyers around here and over at EW’s place could do with it.
Call it Open Source Congressional Staff Research.
Drive-by:
LHP, I don’t really have anything to add, beyond a long, loud, thank for doing the heavy lifting here for us non-lawyer types. You are a treasure, and an invaluable resource for those of us seekers on different paths. Thanks again.
(poof)
The saddest part of this is that despite all the apparent illegalities, and despite the way that the 1600 Crew has tortured not only logic but human beings, the “low information voters” neither understand nor care about the relevance of any of this.
The republicans are counting on this to make their case in the fall, whether it be with commercials of “snarling wolves” again, or even with the bombing of Iran.
But as always, LHP great work. Sounds like a most interesting day with Sen Whitehouse.
Hence the need for a nine hundred and ninety nine part series. You know Josh Marshall posted for weeks and Weeks about the USA scandal before the rest the country got a clue–BTW something that was noted at the retreat. Josh got his props from the Lawyahs’ .
Sometimes the only way to get a hearing called to to demonstrate the an issue has traction, so the committee chair (hi, Sen. Leahy –waving) will jump on it.
Yesterday or the day before (this week is wizzing by me) I got a blast email from Sen Leahy about wanting the Senate to chuck its own version of the Fisa bill and adopt the House version.
I THINK that the Yoo memo that is the source for the 3 bullet points above that Sen. Whitehouse got declassified, is the basis for the Illegal telephone surveillance program. You know, the one the judge in the At&T case said no lawyer would ever rely on?
At least that is my guess. I think that is also the same memo that is the source for the footnote in the 2003 Yoo memo that easy the OLC had previously concluded that the 4th Amendment does not apply to the President’s domestic military actions.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see that memo. And Senator Whitehouse is doing his bit to keep mention of it front and center, and b/c of the continuing debate over telecom immunity–the ACLU may end up getting it out there.
If it is the same one Mukasey testified about the other day– And I think/hope it is–it’s not even classified, merely not published.
ThingsComeUndone @ 49 (on last thread)
I left you a reply re; questions on Hemp etc..
Not sure it is technical enough? but it could be a jumping off point. :)
and i look forward to reading every single installment.
Juno…who are the sycophants for Obama? I’m guessing you are speaking of media people, yes….no?
LHP
Hmmm…Hell’s hell…Wondered about that for a long time. Now we know!
Thanks for this amazing effort on this series LHP.
BTW did Whitehouse reference any opinions prior to 2003? Bush seemed to need to keep clarifying in his interview if the questions he was being asked were in relation to the 2003 memo. Found that need to clarify interesting…
Early rising- a lifelong habit from growing up on the farm (chores before breakfast); my brothers are the same way. Plus my knee is bothering me from extra amount of jogging last eve ;->
I’m not the effusive type, but what RonD said @ 68 goes for me as well. Good choice of words, Ron, LHP is an “invaluable resource” indeed…
“I think he felt he [Gonzalez]had seized more territory for George Bush.” Ayyyy..no wonder no one wants to touch that guy with a ten foot pole - Gonzalez saw his job not as a lawyer, not as someone defending the Constitution, but as recasting DOJ in Bush’s image.
and oh btw, a Medicare statute ?!?!?
excuse me, but just where are the Big Swingin’ Dicks of the Federalist Society on this schlock ?!?!
seriously, have been led to believe guys like Bork may hold views distasteful to me but were at least intellectually nimble and polished, well versed in legal canon, bending it like Beckam, etc.
in the past they have always endeavored to validate their guys - is it safe to assume the rather loud crickets over there means something ??
replay of lieberman’s earlier appearance this morning on Imus coming up shortly. The hypocrisy and phony integrity probably fit better to the heading of the previous thread, but there you have it.
I have to say, that there seem to be a lot of former DOJ types, including IMO, Comey, who think they can just fix it and go forward without further embarrassment to the Department. They don’t want to tear down the Department to build it up again. While I understand their point, I disagree with it.
This will sound so sexist, but unless you have scrubbed a lot of bathroom tiles (ie, been a housewife doing battle with black mildew) you know that you can just give the shower walls a simple wash down and go forward. That might stop the mildew form getting any worse, but it won’t get rid of what you already have.
Nope, you have get out the clorox, put on the gloves and get in there with an old tooth brush and scrub and scrub. Sometimes, you have to file out he old grout and regrout. If you don’t get it ALL, the mildew will regrow.
It’s housewife’s wisdom, which may be that the folks I hear who seem to indicate that they don’t want to tear down the Dept. to build it up all happen to be men. Like I said, it sounds really sexist, but the former law enforcement womenfolk I have talked with, seem to see things my way.
This admin. has been about seizing the US gov’t. for very perverted reasons all along.
Yes, the media.
‘xactly.
Part of what offends me so much about Lieberman is his total refusal to hold hearings on the Katrina mess. Another case of, oh, we’ll just go forward from here.
And lessons of history, not to mention accountability fergawdssake, never learned.
I prefer to look at this like cancer - you have to cut it out and dose it to kill it all.
There aren’t any transcipts of the panel discussions that I am aware of. Somebody from the organizing committee is supposed to be writing an article for the Citibar newsletter.
One thing that he said that stuck me, was that in non public briefings about the USA scandal, McNulty kept telling “fibs” that would be obvious as such to anyone familiar with how DOJ works. So, for example McNulty told Whitehouse that some of the fired USAs were fired for poor performance–but that DOJ didn’t want to embarrass them by saying that publicly–and then McNulty was floored that Whitehoouse knew about the EARS process (its how USA and their offices get performance evalutations) and asked to see the EARS reports for those USAs.
Either McNulty didn’t know that Whitehouse was once a USA hmself, or, I don’t know what. But Whitehouse evidently had a a lot of “gotcha” moments like that.
Yeah the Nazi’s used the law to give the “appearance” of legality for their actions when they legally came to power. They used the argument that these were necessary actions to protect the homeland in a time of crisis. Weak or intimidated opposition parties were ineffective in preventing the power grab. Why does this sound so very familiar?
Nobody knows the mildew I’ve seen,
Nobody knows but Jesus . . .
So maybe we need to send a lot of old toothbrushes to the Senate Judiciary Committee, as well as to the Democratic Presidential candidates.
One of Sheldon’s first big moments on the SJC stage was when he was grilling someone about the number of people at the White House and the DOJ who could contact one another about potential prosecutions. Under President Clinton, the number was something like 7; under President Bush it jumped to the 400s. Pat Leahy sat back in awe and admiration as he watched Whitehouse turn the witness into putty, saying something like “The Senator from RI is out of time, but he can use the rest of mine. I’m very interested in this line of questioning.”
It’s not just “let’s get some new bodies in there, and things will be fine.” Structural changes are needed, to roll back these kinds of practices that unduly inject politics into the legal system of the nation.
LHP your comment is not sexist, it is the truth.
Your perspective represents the best of femine sensibility and consciousness, which this nation and the world desperately need.
Would that the women, now in power (one,in particular, comes to mind) might evidence that understanding of political ‘mildew’.
You are simply, a treasure to the rest of us.
Appears to me that you just get better and better.
Thank you, for the many insights and broad perspective you offer us.
LOL - clorox and elbow grease….. amen.
What it sounds like is like we need a woman to clean up this mess!
Heh-heh.
To a fascist the Nuremburg Trials were “show” trials. To anyone else they were an instrument for determining accountability of those charged with war crimes. When will the liberals and progressive begin to frame Republicans as the heirs to fascism?
LHP for AG!
hmmm… except then she might have to stop writing here.
I respect the need for security and privacy.
But I also see a contradiction that having to be secretive to express one’s views especially when we are free speech advocates.
Why do we have to live in fear of having a scarlet letter pinned to us for our political views?
Duh? Where is my brain? I’ll send it in about a minute
1,814 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Please pardon me if I seem a bit crabbier’n usual this mornin’ but I get ta go see the spine doc in a few minutes to find out if I’m gunna have surgery er not…so please indulge me or not if yer a Nazi.
First off, thanx fer sharin’ Whitehouse’s presentation at the retreat. It is great ta hear that there are still folks in positions of authority or influence who retain a firm grasp of the meanin’ of “the rule of law” and equal protection under it. However, for the last seven years I have been frustrated by all the hand wringin’ and smoke blowin’ from those “liberals” who lament the destruction of our constitutional system but are unwillin’ or unable ta offer any action ta do anythin’ about it.
It seems that we have lived through a recurrin’ nightmare…the fascists break the law and bind the country to precedents that defy reason and human dignity
RE: Perris @ 31
so what this administration is saying is “The Military and their Uniform Code are just a bunch of wussies, they don’t have the guts to protect America, but we’re the real men!” If I ’supported’ the troops that way, I’d watch my back. Especially if I had as little military experience as this bunch of 4Fs and draft-dodgers.
my point is that some people may feel the need to keep their names off the blogging net. others may do it, not out of need, but out of a desire to protect their privacy. everyone has the right to privacy.
and privacy is not the same thing as secrecy - i think you are confusing the two.
loosehead,
thank you SO much.
wow is all i can say for your posts.
gets me through the day, heck, the whole week.
do you have any idea of how much you raise our intelligence level? and the impact of your clarity of thinking? geez, THIS is Democracy!
I guess you just can’t stand any kind of unity. Even on an issue upon which we should all agree and over which we should be outraged. Reading the post, I had almost remembered that the most critical thing was to correct these horrible abuses of power.
Sent the email with the speech attached
…and all our elected representatives do is gnash their teeth and pull their hair and lament the passing of civilized behavior. When is a Senator Whitehouse or Leahy or Finegold gunna stand up and offer proposals to act to bring the law breakers under the boot of the law?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE AIN’T WORDS FOR FRUSTRATION LIKE THIS!!
Does anybody else think it’s interesting that the first report (that I’ve seen anyhow) since the Friday night interview with Bush, was reported last night on Comedy Central by Jon Stewart? That the “moment of zen” was the quote by Ashcroft “why are we talking about this in the White House…” I’ve seen nothing in the newspapers….nothing even on Keith Olbermann. So, the artists bring this “news” to light (I consider comedians and cartoonists to be artists).
that would be up to each of us to figure out what action we are willing to take. although it’s great to have leaders help act collectively, the ultimate responsibilty is, imo, ours.
good luck at the docs today, norske.
We should get business cards that say that *g*
Thanks- we’re definitely well rid of McNulty. And I completely agree with yr. mildew analogy- dig out the rot completely or regrout, no half measures.
My mother’s analogy seems apropos to this, too- You need to break that faulty mold, or they just make another one.
Kind of OT, but not terribly too far afield, it appears that the AP photographer, Bihal Hussein(sp?), that the US has been holding for two years has finally been released.
We know there are earlier ones. We have already seen a 2002 opinion and the 2003 opinion references several others that we have not seen yet.
And Sen Whitehouse’s bullet points came from an opinion we have not seen yet.
Oh, there’s more.
Good. Maybe a visit to Congress to testify on his treatment during captivity is in order now.
They may be as flabbergasted as I was by just how unsupported this memo is. Peterr’s post yesterday is in many ways the most relevent. These memos lack basic scholarship
it’s even more familiar than that -
happened across an academic tome from 1992
Hitler’s Justice by Ingo Muller/1992 Harvard University Press
it’s $40 so out of my range at the moment - have been reading excerpts and reviews and it appears to have been vetted and well received by lawyers and historians alike -
Chapter 9 - Nazi Jurisprudence focuses on the role of Academe
a synopsis -
now I know the mere attempts at analogy to this monstrous era gets one immediately dismissed but the more I read . . .
if i ever have the time, i might just make some cards like that up… *g*
… got the email, it will take me a few - i had some other stuff going on i’ve got to close down first.
IIRC, Sen Whitehouse did use the word cancer at one point. So, maybe he will favor accountability when the time comes.
In addition to the Medicare statute, it looks to me, as a layman, that the memos also relied on Joseph Heller’s famous novel.
i’d guess this is all about the guantanamo show trials … continue innoculating us to torture so that they can suddenly convict some treacherous terrorists in time for mcsame to get a boost prior to the 08 election theft attempt …
Good luck at the Dr. Norske, you forgot to pass the ammunition, so it’s a sign of how worried you are. I got hit by a car about a year and half ago and broke my back.
BACK PAIN SUCKS. Fortunately, I am healing well, but I remember how it was in the beginning.
Take care.
I think it is eerie. Also, something seems to have changed on KO. As his ratings have increased, he has gotten–I don’t know–safer?
Of course they want these arguments “dismissed” as hyperbole. It hits too close to home. Liberals that suscribe to the proposition that Republicans are merely a “loyal” opposition play into the hands of the fascists and have learned nothing from history.
You wouldn’t be dismissed by me, that is for sure.
The USA has a MILLION people on it’s “Terrorist Watch List”.
Some are “terrorists”, some probably only blogged about the US governments crimes…
“There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one’s safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn’t, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn’t have to; but if he didn’t want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
“That’s some catch, that Catch-22,” he observed.
“It’s the best there is,” Doc Daneeka agreed.”
SanerO @ 92
Have you seen the way those people at 1600 Pennsylvania do business? Perhaps Cardinal Richelieu can explain it to you:
He didn’t mean it metaphorically. Do you want to bet the blog on whether or not there’s some newly-embarred graduate of the Regent School of The Law Means Whatever I Say It Means right now with a big stack LHP’s tax returns, academic records and medical history? Oh, and her web-surfing habits, every email she’s written since February 2001, all her phone calls, and her child’s pediatrician’s details. Want to bet their wasn’t someone from the Department of Homeland Security in there taking notes of possibly seditious comments by this vexatious Senator?
I don’t know. Mildew is actually harmless. What’s dangerous in a shower is slippery soap scum on the floor.
Mildew is the diversionary issue, ie: illegal immigration, gays, abortion, etc., used to distract while more soap scum is poured onto the floor.
Your question reminded me that Colbert asked Chris Matthews whether he is going to run for Arlen Spector’s seat in 2010. Imagine, Tweety for Senator! His response was that he’s always wanted to be a Senator, since childhood. I think he’s seriously considering…running as a Democrat, BTW!
Man, you have really taken a dislike to me. So much for unity.
My post WAS first of all, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, hence the “heh-heh” and second, was in response to an analogy of women understanding better the need to get rid of dirt, so technically I was agreeing with her (unity), and I’m not sure why you think supporting Clinton over Obama is inherently an act of disunity anyway.
I think if you read my other posts, which you seem to have missed, you will in fact see that I am in agreement about the abuse of power of this admin. Instead, you seem focused on attacking me in particular. Maybe get over that?
Then why is no one going after Gonzales, Mukasey and Bush? Why are they getting a free pass? Why is their no action to backup the words?
He’s gotten his taste?
Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.
Because Impeachment is “Off the Table”
I like Sheldon Whitehouse, who is my own Senator. But his vote in favor of the bill including telecom immunity was a reminder of his own deep family ties to the intelligence/security/defense establishment. Here’s part of the 2001 NY Times obituary of his father, Charles Sheldon Whitehouse:
Mr. Whitehouse was born on Nov. 5, 1921, in Paris. He graduated from Yale in 1947, after having been a Marine pilot from 1942 to 1946. In 1947 he joined the C.I.A. and worked in Congo, Turkey, Belgium and Cambodia. He moved to the State Department in 1956, where he became acting assistant secretary for East Asian affairs, and in 1972 he became deputy to Ellsworth Bunker, the American ambassador in Saigon.
In 1988, Mr. Whitehouse was called out of retirement by Defense Secretary Frank C. Carlucci, to become the first assistant secretary of defense for special operations and low density conflicts, with the assignment of strengthening cooperation among Army, Navy and Air Force special forces after a series of disagreements and botched operations.
I don’t want to further divert this post, but see if you can find any other reference to the candidate issue in this post, prior to your first two comments.
Maybe. It might not be him, as his show gets better ratings, it also attracts more attention from his bosses. It might be them.
Somebody’s been trying to makeover Rachel Maddow as well. She has adopted some of Randi Rhoades verbal tics (WHY??????) and they’ve got her drowning in eye makeup. Why anybody would want to mess with perfection, I do not know. The lip gloss and wearing blouses instead of tee shirts, is just more professional grooming, but someone is pushing her too hard in that direction.
Why can’t a smart erudite woman show up on TV with minimal makeup and servicable wardrobe and just be valued for her ideas? Why do they have to give her the Greta Van Sustern makeover?
Let’s give the whole DoJ shower a thorough scrub down to the nub, top to bottom. I still like my mother’s saying, usually applied to bad attitudes being passed from one generation to another: Break that faulty mold, or you end up making another one.
Je m’excuse, got to go do some faxing.
Oh, sorry. Didn’t realize making a tongue-in-cheek reference to a female political candidate on a politics blog and in response to someone saying women understand these issues better, the basis of the post being that the dirt needs to be cleaned out and therefore commenting on who might be best to do the cleaning was off limits.
I shall try not to cause such offense again.
I’m assuming I shouldn’t bring up the fact that I was very pleased yesterday to read that Obama has said he would look into Bush Admin. crimes if he becomes president either, then.
Oops, just did. Sorry.
sorry, this post is in reply to Crosstimber’s at 128.
I have been informed that to suggest the DOJ needs cleaning and to express a preference as to who might be best to do that is off limits.
Good point in general when discussing issues.
108 people died as a result of USA torure…organ damage is moot.
Allpwing criminals to run oor government is not an option pressure to start the Impeachment investigations. Whether Bush is yanked out of office is not the gosl it is to EXPOSE the crimes to our citizens…if they don’t care we have lost the democracy. Take a cold shower America a see what your kids will be living in…hell.
What I don’t get is how they reconcile all their hootin’ and hollerin’ about Jesus and claiming to be so full of the Holy Spirit while ordering people to attach electrodes to other human beings’ genitalia and shoving water down their throats, among other things.
First of all, KO has always been very well-dressed and professional in appearance, but it never made him less than what he is.
Second, I would love Rachel Maddow as a newsperson, no matter what she wears. It’s her perspective that makes her special IMO. Why are we now worried about packaging. I buy products that come in more attractive packaging all the time, I’m sure, although it helps if the product is also superlative. But if a little makeup and blouses increase Rachel’s professional facade and keep the audience at large from dismissing her as an unprofessional droll, I see nothing inherently wrong with that! The objective is to attract more of an audience, so whatever floats that boat is fine with me, thank you very much.
lhp - sorry it took me so long to get it posted. too many things happening at once. also, i had to strip the formatting from the word document and then add it back in (paragraphs, blockquotes, etc). please let me know if you (or anyone else sees any errors). thanks for making whitehouse’s speech available and everything else you do.
http://www.netrootsmass.net/sh.....080412.php
Selise–
Looks great. Thanks for hosting this important speech.
thanks for giving it a look over.. was a bit rushed in trying to get it up.
LHP - please check your email from me.
Selise,
I haven’t had time to read the speech yet, although it looks just fine as far as formatting goes, etc. My question is, how do you get there from anywhere else if you don’t have the link available. Does it show up on anywhere in a table of contents? Does the page have a search function that would take you there if you entered Sheldon Whitehouse? If I went to Hugh’s list, for instance, and I knew that the speech was somewhere on the site, how would I find it? I poked around a bit, but I didn’t see it on any listing, if you know what I mean? Please clarify or do I need to clarify further what I mean?
i think i understand - there isn’t, for example, a link on the top navigation bar for it. i have a ton of stuff on the site like that - everything from the first audio file i hosted for glenn greenwald almost 2 years ago to random stuff fdl commentors wanted to make available to each other to my list of al gore speeches.
the main idea was to let LHP have a link to use - so people reading her post here would know where to find it if they want to read the whole thing. in that way, you can kinda think about it as though it were attached to this page, and not so much to my site.
but, i’ll add some meta tags to it today so that it will show up in google searches. and when i get my act together (hah!), i’ll try to remember to make a resource list page of this kind of thing.
will that help address your concern? if you have any suggestions, please feel free to suggest away - and there is a contact form on the site you can use for that kind of thing too.
here are the tags i added:
Sheldon, Whitehouse, DOJ, Mukasey, Gonzales, FISA, torture, Yoo, pixiedust, Office of Legal Counsel, Department of Justice, Senator, OLC
once the google spider crawls the page (which should be soon if LHP links to it from here), you should be able to google on these keywords and the document title (the top three lines on the page, excluding the reference link) to find it via google.
No, what you suggested will be fine. I just looked through the “Links” column on the side of your “blog” page and the “Congressional Hearings” page and I couldn’t find it there, so I wondered. These things are extremely useful. For instance, your phone and fax numbers for the congress. I still use them (I downloaded them from your page). But if they weren’t already on my computer, I don’t know if I’d remember how to get to them. Be sure to make them accessible to search engines also, BTW. Really good job!
BTW, I’m not sure Pelosi’s fax # is right? I thought it was, since I’ve faxed before to that number and it supposedly went through, but who knows if it went to Pelosi’s office. I tried to fax it to your number the other day, and I think someone answered, although I had the sound down too low to hear very well, and wasn’t quick enough to pick up and ask. But I did also find a new number when I googled…that number is:202-225-8259. I found it listed in several places, but I don’t know anymore about whether it’s the right number than I do about whether your number is right, so I guess I’ll flip a coin or call her office and ask…I would have already but it’s long distance and I’m reluctant due to financial constraints. A nickel here, a dime there, pretty soon it starts to add up to a fair amount of money, so to speak. Thanks for all you do.
ann - i’ve got to run to go work on another project right now, but those are great suggestions you make. i should definitely put the congress contact links on the side bar. if you would be so kind as to either leave me a comment (for example on the post with the house’s contact info) or via the contact page for the website i will follow up later…. and i can easily make the phone call myself (i pay a flat monthly fee, so it doesn’t matter if i make a lot of calls or just a few). but i’m for sure going to forget…. if you don’t remind me!
thanks!
Rule No. 1. El Presidente is head of Pre-Crime; he knows when he’s going to break the law, sometimes he hasn’t a clue, but gives himself an advance pardon. He tells no one. He creates secret laws and doesn’t write them down except when he wants to, often only to accuse someone else of breaking them.
Rule No. 2. El Presidente breaks the law, but arrogates to himself the role of judge, so that he can issue himself an advance pardon. He tells no one except when he wants to, often only when he wants to accuse the legislature of the ”prohibited act” of stepping on his executive turf. That is, when it tries to fulfill its own constitutional obligations to defend the Constitution and uphold the law.
Rule No. 3. El Presidente breaks the law with impunity. He is Prince John, not Richard the Lionhearted. He is a usurper who became king, whose reign is so loathed in fact and legend, by serf and noble, that no subsequent monarch has dared name himself John II. Only el Presidente may tell lawyers what the law is; it does not exist of its own right and cannot be used to question his divine right. Atavistic arguments discarded in blood and law for three hundred fifty years, like the right to torture.
That’s the new American Constitution, ratified by the Cheney Territory and the State of Bush, binding on an incompetent head of state and his dominatrix vice president. Not a mad house, a house of horrors.
I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it, I would like to see Senator Whitehouse in the the position of AG in the next administration. And though I’m against government expansion in general, I would like to see AG Whitehouse create and oversee a whole new department dedicated to examination and investigation of the Bush Administration and indicting, prosecuting and imprisoning criminals irregardless of who they may be.
And tear down that f*#/Xing LIBRARY!
Again? Why no impeachments of GWB & Co? Bush and his gang have violated their oaths of office to the Constitution. They have demonstrated little respect for the law, and that only for appearances sake.
So, Senator Whitehouse, I have one question for you–why haven’t you asked the House Judiciary committee to provide the Senate with Articles of Impeachment based on your’s (and theirs?) findings? Seriously, how is it that a political party can be so disorganized that they cannot remove a criminal conspiracy to violate so many laws, so many violations of oaths of office, from being dealt with by the Congress of the United States? At what point would the Democrats ever think of Impeachment if these are not cases where they should be considered? It is astonishing and frightening that no national political figure in federal position of power has sufficient moral fortitude to push this process through over a whole term of Congress.
In fact, is would seem that the criminal conspiracies, the rot, has reached into both the GOP and Dems so badly that only a complete change in leadership, top to bottom, would hold any hopes of righting the sinking ship of our once great Republican form of government. Given the growing control of our political “dialog” in this country by Punch and Judy impersonators, it seems that the ship may well sink. Already, one can smell the biggest rats gathering their treasure and preparing to flee…offshore tax shelters anyone?