Eighth in a series
As some of you know from the comment threads, this past Saturday I attended the Association of the Bar of the City of New York's Council on Criminal Justice retreat entitled "A Summit on the Prosecution Function." Senator Sheldon Whitehouse was both a panelist and the luncheon speaker and he graciously respond to my request for a copy of his speech, so that I might share some of the highlights with you.
The event as a whole was characterized by a bluntness and refreshing willingness to call bullshit and rip the fig leaves off of some of the more egregious behavior to come out of our system of justice in the last few years. Senator Whitehouse's speech fit right into that, it was blunt -- in the good way, it wasted no time shilly shallying politely making excuses in the name of not further damaging the Department of Justice. Nope, it cut straight to the chase, right on the first page:
While I won’t delve into the long litany of frightful stories regarding the tenure of former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, I would like to touch on one simple point: the Attorney General simply did not seem to respect the institution that he was tasked to serve. I remember when I first took office as Attorney General of little Rhode Island, how strongly I felt the responsibility and honor of that office. I don’t think he ever felt that way. I think he felt he had seized more territory for George Bush.
He then went on to give a little report card that mentioned some reforms that AG Mukasey has instituted and to note some improvements of tone that the Senator has noticed since Muksaey took office. However, the Senator noted, despite these improvements, "much remains undone."
At which point, the good Senator launched into the topic of the Yoo memos. He had several great pickups. For example: that definiton of torture Yoo used, you know "equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure ....", that one? Do you know where it comes from? 42 USC Section 1395w-22, a Medicare reimbursement statute! I kid you not.
And how did we get to the point where the highly respected Office of Legal Counsel was using Medicare reimbursement statutes – statutes utterly irrelevant to the interrogation of suspected terrorists – to justify its legal analysis on this issue?
Making matters worse, this “legal analysis” was used to justify the legality of a certain coercive interrogation technique that regrettably has become familiar to us all, “water-boarding.”
Water-boarding has a long and sordid history in the annals of tyrant regimes, and brutal occupations. It was used by the Spanish Inquisition, by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, by the French in Algeria, by the Japanese in World War II, and by military dictators of Latin America.
The technique ordinarily involves strapping a captive in a reclining position, heels above head, putting a cloth over his face and pouring water over the cloth to create the feeling of suffocation and drowning. Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.), who was held captive for more than five years by the North Vietnamese, has said this of water-boarding: “It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.”
The United States government said the same thing. Americans, on behalf of military tribunals, initiated war crimes prosecutions against Japanese soldiers who water-boarded American aviators in World War II.
In fact, the United States government itself brought a civil rights prosecution against a Texas sheriff who water-boarded prisoners. The indictment asserted that the defendants conspired to “subject prisoners to a suffocating ‘water torture’ ordeal in order to coerce confessions.” The sheriff and his deputies were convicted by a jury and the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit affirmed. At sentencing, the presiding judge admonished the former sheriff that “[t]he operation down there would embarrass the dictator of a primitive country.”
It is at this point that Senator Whitehouse brought up the matter of US v. Lee which we discussed yesterday afternoon. After that, a more chilling point:
I see the torture memo as part of a disquieting pattern at the Office of Legal Counsel. As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I have had the opportunity to review secret OLC opinions related to the warrantless wiretapping program. Those opinions are also deeply troubling. I was so offended by three legal theories contained in those memos, that I fought to have them declassified and brought to light. Those theories are, as declassified by the Director of National Intelligence:
1) An executive order cannot limit a President. There is no constitutional requirement for a President to issue a new executive order whenever he wishes to depart from the terms of a previous executive order. Rather than violate an executive order, the President has instead modified or waived it;
2) The President, exercising his constitutional authority under Article II, can determine whether an action is a lawful exercise of the President’s authority under Article II; and
3) The Department of Justice is bound by the President’s legal determinations.
Point I=Emptywheel's Pixie Dust.
Suffice it simply to say that the first proposition -- that executive compliance with executive orders is optional -- turns the Federal Register into a screen of falsehood, behind whose phony regulations lawless programs can operate in secret. (Remember that a regulation has the “force and effect of law.”) Contrast the second proposition -- that Article II gives the President the authority to define his Article II powers -- with the famous language of Marbury v. Madison, that “it is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department to say what the law is.” And compare the third proposition -- that the President tells the Department of Justice what the law is, and not vice versa -- to the famous statement, uttered by Richard Nixon: “If the President does it, that means it is not illegal.”
As you know, I was nearly apoplectic when I heard AG Mukasey, a few mere weeks after his confirmation hearings, say that you could not say that waterboarding was legally torture, though it would seem like torture if performed upon his own person. I find myself wondering, was Mukasey telegraphing that whether or not he believed it to be torture, he could not say it was torture, because the President, pursuant to point 2 above has declared that it is not torture, and therefore, pursuant to point 3 above, no one at the Department of Justice can contradict the President?
Does it come down to something as stupid, foolish and illogical as that?
No wonder they don't want to turn over that memo, even though it's not classified, even though non-classified OLC opinions used to be published so they could provide guidance to everybody.
All I know is, if they ever release that remaining memo, we're gonna need a hundred part series to dissect all the things wrong with it. Anyway, thank you Senator Whitehouse for all you have done, all you are doing and all you will do in the future to preserve and restore the rule of law in this country.
Photo of Senator Whitehouse from ActBlue
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Update: Selise is hosting the full text of Senator Whitehouse's speech here.
[Editor's note: The mid-post photo, by takomabibelot, features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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RULE OF LAW!
so!
coffee’s ready - hold out your cups…
Thanks so much, LHP, for putting this together. And to Sen. Whitehouse for giving the speech — would that it had been televised, so that more folks could have seen it. More like this, please, from every member of Congress…
that coffee’s bitter!
no kidding! maybe next time LHP goes to an event like this, we can send her with a video camera?
I’ve read in the past (perhaps it was Senator Chaffee who pointed it out) that Whitehouse’s votes have been disappointing. Is he another Specter, who talks a good game, but folds in the crux?
Looseheadprop and Sheldon Whitehouse!?, it certainly is a good morning!
lhp sez:
Amen.
So why is the Yoo memos, Condi,Darth Colin etc approving torture, Bush saying he knew and approved all happening now?
Is something big on torture coming down the pipe?
Thank you, Prof prop for so much work on this topic. You make it possible for someone of my limited legal knowledge to understand this murky shit.
They’re going to blame Medicaire for torture.
If you could see all the wobbly out of focus too much background noise footage I have taken of Littleprop’s school plays and piano recitals and horse shows, every one completely unusable for their intended purpose, you would not say that.
Further these are the kinds of events where you need permission to video, which would mean explaining why I want it, which would mean outing myself.
Life as an anonymous blogger has its restrictions, Sigh
Good morning LHP
When was this?
In part because of the ACLU lawsuit, that has pried loose two of the Yoo memos so far. In part because of the telecom immunity debate. And I think there is a snowball rolling downhill from those memos that as it gathers mass, we will learn more and more.
Yeah is the Senator going to do something, is there a plan.
Senators have to get a super majority to agree on anything in order to get past Bush’s veto.
I suggest threatening the funding of several GOP pet projects if they don’t vote our way.
Good
lhp, how did the group respond to the Senator’s address?
Are you referring to Yoo’s use of the Medicaid reimbursement statute for his definition? I read the the relevant portion of the Medicaid law (so NOT my area of practice) it has to do with when you can go to the ER without a prior approval.
So basically he ’s saying anything that wouldn’t require rushing you to the Hospital with sirens blaring, ain’t torture.
They are digging a new deeper circle in hell for this.
his votes on telco immunity have been very disappointing. not only has he voted for bills that include immunity - he voted (in committee) against stripping immunity from the senate intelligence committee fisa bill.
too soon to tell - and there are, imo, reasons to be concerned - but i have lots of hope that he will not fall into the specter hole of fake concern. did you see the speech he made on the senate floor after spending the time to read classified documents and to get some of what he found (on presidential “pixie dust”) declassified?
http://emptywheel.firedoglake......ite-house/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iFW.....playnext=1
!984? It was in the post from the day before yesterday. US v. Lee. It was IIRC during the Reagan administration
fair enough.
how about audio recordings - do people (other than anonymous bloggers) make them?
Thanks. It was the telco immunity votes I had vaguely remembered.
I am not impressed by speeches (which is one reason why I am not enthused about Obama). Talk is cheap. We need action. We’ll have to keep an eye on Whitehouse.
watched Jon Stewart ask that very question of Goldsmith last night
even before I encountered the legal eagles here, I understood lawyers like to sound circumspect, nuanced on certain legal points but was soooo disappointed in Goldsmith’s responses - he was much more forthcoming in the prev Frontline piece -
Mornin’ All
Very positively.
The Association of the Bar of the City of NY has developed a reputation for being pretty into civil liberties, so some folks think of it as pretty lefty. However, it is one of the the premier Bar Associations in the country (if you are ever in NYC just stop in to see the building, it a stunning. Very Gilded Age all marble and mahogany) it’s on East 44th Street across the street from the Algonquin Hotel and down the block from the also very amazing looking NY Yacht Club) and is controlled by all the big law firms, which tend to be more conservative, so internal it’s not as liberal as it seems from the outside.
So, it wasn’t a Dem room by any stretch. What is was, was room full of people who believe in the criminal justice system and don’t believe that politics should influence prosecution–what a novel concept!
The Senator hung around afterwards for a very long time answering people’s questions. He wasn’t one of those prima donna drive by speakers.
Good morning, Cbl.
Morning LHP and all upon the lake,
It’s the framing and it’s not water boarding like surf boarding,it’s partial drowning or attempted murder.
Call a spade a spade. And a good question is does water boarding fail when they go to far and actually do drown some one? Has anybody asked that question how many drowned?
PEACE NOW DAMN IT !
Haven’t been around much lately, so please forgive if it’s been discussed already, but Sen. Obama gets asked the big question re: potential crimes in the Bush White House.
mornin’ baby
LHP,
You have mentioned outing yourself before. I certainly would not want you to compromise your personal “safety” economic or otherwise. What are the implications for outing yourself? Would you lose access to the “inside” so to speak? Or is it an actual personal safety issue?
The whole concept is troubling when someone can’t participate in “things” because of the problems implied by being “out”.
I am for an open society and this sort of issue seems to further the notion of secrecy, even when it is serving a good cause.
you know, the definition of torture by this administration is so simple to disect it is amazing
I am going to cut and paste something I wrote to someone who supported the president a long time ago, I don’t have time to edit it for this thread, out of batteries, see all later but here it is
there are so many forms of torture that risk neither life nor limb it is impossible to enumerate
we can force them naked on the floor freezing to the brink of consciousness, but we don’t let them sleep, their toes feel like they will break off if we move them…we can pour water that’s even room temperature and it will feel as if it’s boiling their skin off their bones, though no mark will be left
I have no idea what we’ve done, nor do you, but it is a fact the administration has endorsed torture and even claimed they had the right to it.
when congress passed the law saying he cannot, he ignored their law and claimed that he could
you think the test of torture is loss of life or limb, I am telling you this is in no way the test of torture, nor would anyone even presume to make that claim…unless you are trying to forgive yourself from conducting that torture
I can drill into the root of your tooth, risk neither life nor limb, you will be in such pain you would rather take your own life, and you will surely know torture
I can drip water on your head, drop by drop, risk neither life nor limb, and you will surely know torture
I can pull your fingernails out on at a time, risk neither life nor limb
I can have savages sodomize your daughter, your son, your wife…in front of you, I will not suffer you any pain at all, yet you will know the full measure of torture
I can have savages sodomize you with a 2 by four, in front of your daughter, your wife, your son…this will be torture to each of you
and beyond any of that, it’s a fact you have no clue if people have lost life or limb from what we’ve done, you wouldn’t know, nobody would know
what we have done went far beyond what the military was willing to accept, this is also a fact
there is no doubt, you have changed your opinion…now that you’ve found it’s your president, why his torture is fine, it’s Saddam’s torture you were talking about
I on the one hand think the military have MUCH better choices for success then this administration
you think this administration making decisions that fly in the face of their advice is the best direction
this administration’s decisions already have a track record
the decisions have created more terrorism, more terrorists, their decisions have turned moderates into radicals and radicals into heroes…this is a fact, reported by the presidents own agencies, it cannot be denied…in the very best light, his decisions have bread terrorism and hatred toward America
Not that I know of. he gave me the full text of the speech as a “word” document, but it’s not hosted anywhere that I know of. I can email it to you if you want it.
Good morning from L.A., LHP. Been looking forward to yr. piece on the Retreat & the Whitehouse keynote speech since you mentioned you’d be writing one.
Now to turn off the porch lights, make some coffee, & have a read…
I’ve attended presentations at the NY Bar association on animal rights and the law.
I think they need to kick Muckasy out of the club for his positions on torture.
Wow. Speechless.
would it be ok if i posted it for others to read? i could just pull the text and use it to create an html file (like i do with hugh’s list). i’d love to read it myself, but i’m also all into making the primary documents as widely available as possible….
I’m not quite awake yet but didn’t Whitehouse vote yeah on some of the bad FISA legislation?
He has taken action, he got the 3 bullet points above declassified, so we now know about the pixie dust.
He has exposed A HUGE amount of information about the USA firing scandal through the Committee hearing process. And although he is not openly critical of Mukasey himself yet (he has praised Mukasey for several real actual reforms which Mukasey has instituted), he is not part of the Kumbaya all is forgiven now that Alberto is gone crowd. He appears to be intent on fixing the Department and bringing it back to its former stature.
I see from some of the other comments that were made while I was posting mine that I am correct that Whitehouse voted for Teleco immunity. Not good. I wonder why he did that?
Jeez Louise! Speaking from an emotional perspective, reading your post, LHP, was a gut-churner. For all the obvious reasons, e.g., the United States of America appropriately likened to the Khmer Rouge. Ohmygawd. But here’s the most chilling thing of all. The press doesn’t give a rip. The populace at large seems not to give a rip. We have descended into madness, and no one is immune from this rule of lawlessness. But it’s barely registering on the outrage Richter Scale. Congressional leaders steadfastly tell us impeachment is too complicated, too expensive, too distracting and they don’t have the votes. I. Don’t. Care. BushCo has had a free pass for seven years. And when George II defiantly stated he approved all of this, but for the blogosphere, he got a giant ho-hum. Yes, Conyers wants to chat up the Yoo memo. Urgh. As you can see, I can barely articulate my outrage. Who(m) do we lean on in concert? It’s time. It’s beyond time. Impeachment now. Through ranting. Maybe.
Literally the same question? No shit? I wrote this on Monday because I got my slot time mixed up and thought this was going to run yesterday morning, so I didn’t get it from him. I was also asleep by the time TDS came on.
But I guess great minds think alike. Also there is a difference between interviews on TV magazine shows like Frontline and 20-20, vs. Live TV. On the magazine shows, if you say something dumb, they let you do another “take”–at least the nice producers have done that for me.
live TV, you don’t get a do over and I think that makes you more tense and less open.
a note on the side
Here’s emptywheel’s definition of Pixie Dust:
(OLC = Office of Legal Counsel)
Emptywheel covered a speech by Whitehouse in December that covered the same OLC opinions. (Bush decides his own power, Bush tells DOJ what the law is)
She included links to video/transcript on the Senators site.
for all we know that was the price he paid for getting the declassifications he wanted. or maybe he doesn’t care about accountabilty if he thinks he can “fix” things (if that’s his thinking, imo he’s fooling himself). but whatever - eh’s not perfect… but so far, he’s very, very good.
let’s keep our eyes peeled and our thinking skeptical - and let’s also appreciate the amazingly good stuff he has done so far.
that’s my take. ymmv.
jeez
how much bigger can it get?
The “principals” talked about it at length. The Resident “approved” it all. Spurious secret “legality” memos were used for justification. People were tortured and some died as a result of these “policies”. Our civil protections have eroded to nil as a direct result of these actions.
And didn’t every one of them deny they had any prior knowledge of this? Didn’t a few low level Military figures pretty much take take the rap?
I HOPE nothing else comes down the pipe…
If there could be an award given out for “Best Incoming Senate Freshman” IMHO Sheldon Whitehouse would win hands down.
It is clearly apparent that he does his homework for the committees he sits on, he’s smart, and he doesn’t seem to have gotten “Washingtonitis” yet either….always thinking about higher office or the tv cameras, or giving self serving interviews, nope…..just shows up aand does a good job every day.
Thanks for sharing his speech
inspired by marcy’s post, i made a youtube from the realplayer video posted at the senator’s website (with permission from his staff - i asked after i’d already done it though) - it was only my second youtube, and over 9000 people watched at least part of it. made it to the top 10 news youtubes of the week and stayed there for several days.
that was a fantastic statement from the senate floor. recommend it to everyone.
I think Bernie is a contender too.
Re: Outing.
When I was in Law School we had a mandatory moot court argument that we had to do. It just so happened that I got scheduled to argue on the very same day for which I had tickets to see (it was either King Tut or the Scythian Gold) exhibit at the Met Museum of Art. You had to order the tickets months in advance so, if I didn’t go on that day, I would not go at all.
So, I went to the museum in the morning wearing the suit I would wear when I argued at 2 PM. I left the exhibit on time, but made a wrong turn and got lost in the corridors of the museum and made myself late.
When I got to the argument no time to spare and rushed in. Surprisingly, the argument went incredibly well. During the critique the judges said they could not tell that I was rushed or flustered. They had Only ONE major criticism–They said you should never make YOURSELF the issue.
You are there to represent your client’s point of view, not your own. The court should not be influenced by who YOU are except with respect for having a reputation for good quality legal research and reasoning.
So, you should not wear button or have stickers on your binder that espouse any causes or personal beliefs of your own.
You see, in my haste, I had forgotten to take of the button that the Met gives you to show that you have paid your admission.
I never forgot that. I briefly ran for office once. My kid came home from school one day crying because her classmates had heard their parents discussing a policy position of mine in a negative way.
I don’t want my clients or my kid paying a price for who I am. I would not be able to write so freely and openly –and there would be a whole lot less swear words. It would not be fun to read.
Good morning all and thank you LHP,
I became a big Sheldon Whitehouse fan when he displayed the number of contacts between the DOJ and the WH thru the use of just a couple of charts. I called his office to show my appreciation. His FISA vote for immunity threw me a curveball. I don’t know about backstage machinations in these matters, but my gut says he’s on our side and only the journey will hopefully tell the whole story some day.
So, is Senator Whitehouse on anybody’s VP shortlist?
I for one would love to be reading the entire speech also, and a transcript of the retreat panels too, if one was made & is available.
Yr. analysis up top is excellent, LHP. Did Whitehouse reveal any further thoughts on the Yoo memo or anything else related during panel discussions?
Prof -
here ya go about a minute 20 in
rest of the interview
Good Golly , you’re up early
Bush and Cheney and Yoo, et al, are not the problem. They are clearly tyrannical despots who care not one whit about American principles, let alone humanitarian principles.
They are who they are, and it’s been obvious to many of us from the beginning while others bought their BS disguise of the flag and God.
The problem is with the enablers who do know better but refuse to do anything about them: namely, the majority of Republicans in Congress (and the Democrats for not arguing forcefully enough that something has to be done!).
Give me your email, I’ll send it now and if you would give us the link, I’ll update it into the post
As some jester recently observed, it is a good thing we are not hosting the Olympics this summer, because we would have to boycott ourselves.
although i didn’t “get it” for a long time, this has been one of the things i’ve learned to appreciate about the ‘net - that it doesn’t matter “who” a person is (including education and all the other social signifiers we filter what we hear through). what matters is the content of what we write - whether as a blogger or as a commenter.
And the MSM that forgets it is supposed to maintain an “adversarial” (not “colaborative”) relationship with the government.
True
Which begs the question:biggest disappointment for those that had ‘high hopes’ for the incoming(fill in the blank) Freshman senator
at gmail dot com. i think you also have it from when you contacted hugh?
Oh cripes, don’t even get me started on the complete failure of the press.
Morning pups. Whitehouse is doing the Lord’s work. Will it do any good? What gets me is that the Rethugs are no longer making any pretense of telling the truth. They just lie straight out in your face and when you look surprised, give you the Cheney ’so?’ I saw on Booman yesterday that one of their shills likened the Nuremberg trials to ’show trials.’ It will probably stick.
What is discouraging is that the thugs have truly mastered the art of ruling by managing the beliefs and expectations of a possible majority of citizens who don’t have the time or stamina to inform themselves and think things through, and have therefore to rely on their ‘gut’ to make decisions that affect all of us. I don’t know how we get out of this. They are succeeding by destroying the legitimacy of people with professional training. ‘We don’t need no stinking rule of law’ for lawyers; liberal activists for preachers who don’t toe the line; prissy professors, etc. It’s nihilism, pure, simple, and mortal.
also… wrt to “outing” oneself. there are lots of reasons to want to protect one’s privacy - but ultimately i think we all ought to have that right. just as i don’t want the fbi going through my personal life.
Hey! Maybe that’s the number one reason to get Hillary in there! They HATE her. They’ll continue their sycophantic ways with McCain and Obama, but we’ll be sure to hear about every burp and fart Hillary lets escape!
Taking my emotional blathering self for a walk. Toodles.
I have a hunch that there are a couple folks up on Capitol Hill who would love to pry that memo loose so as to be able to see what you, Christy, and the cast of lawyers around here and over at EW’s place could do with it.
Call it Open Source Congressional Staff Research.
Drive-by:
LHP, I don’t really have anything to add, beyond a long, loud, thank for doing the heavy lifting here for us non-lawyer types. You are a treasure, and an invaluable resource for those of us seekers on different paths. Thanks again.
(poof)
The saddest part of this is that despite all the apparent illegalities, and despite the way that the 1600 Crew has tortured not only logic but human beings, the “low information voters” neither understand nor care about the relevance of any of this.
The republicans are counting on this to make their case in the fall, whether it be with commercials of “snarling wolves” again, or even with the bombing of Iran.
But as always, LHP great work. Sounds like a most interesting day with Sen Whitehouse.
Hence the need for a nine hundred and ninety nine part series. You know Josh Marshall posted for weeks and Weeks about the USA scandal before the rest the country got a clue–BTW something that was noted at the retreat. Josh got his props from the Lawyahs’ .
Sometimes the only way to get a hearing called to to demonstrate the an issue has traction, so the committee chair (hi, Sen. Leahy –waving) will jump on it.
Yesterday or the day before (this week is wizzing by me) I got a blast email from Sen Leahy about wanting the Senate to chuck its own version of the Fisa bill and adopt the House version.
I THINK that the Yoo memo that is the source for the 3 bullet points above that Sen. Whitehouse got declassified, is the basis for the Illegal telephone surveillance program. You know, the one the judge in the At&T case said no lawyer would ever rely on?
At least that is my guess. I think that is also the same memo that is the source for the footnote in the 2003 Yoo memo that easy the OLC had previously concluded that the 4th Amendment does not apply to the President’s domestic military actions.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see that memo. And Senator Whitehouse is doing his bit to keep mention of it front and center, and b/c of the continuing debate over telecom immunity–the ACLU may end up getting it out there.
If it is the same one Mukasey testified about the other day– And I think/hope it is–it’s not even classified, merely not published.
ThingsComeUndone @ 49 (on last thread)
I left you a reply re; questions on Hemp etc..
Not sure it is technical enough? but it could be a jumping off point. :)
and i look forward to reading every single installment.
Juno…who are the sycophants for Obama? I’m guessing you are speaking of media people, yes….no?
LHP
Hmmm…Hell’s hell…Wondered about that for a long time. Now we know!
Thanks for this amazing effort on this series LHP.
BTW did Whitehouse reference any opinions prior to 2003? Bush seemed to need to keep clarifying in his interview if the questions he was being asked were in relation to the 2003 memo. Found that need to clarify interesting…
Early rising- a lifelong habit from growing up on the farm (chores before breakfast); my brothers are the same way. Plus my knee is bothering me from extra amount of jogging last eve ;->
I’m not the effusive type, but what RonD said @ 68 goes for me as well. Good choice of words, Ron, LHP is an “invaluable resource” indeed…
“I think he felt he [Gonzalez]had seized more territory for George Bush.” Ayyyy..no wonder no one wants to touch that guy with a ten foot pole - Gonzalez saw his job not as a lawyer, not as someone defending the Constitution, but as recasting DOJ in Bush’s image.
and oh btw, a Medicare statute ?!?!?
excuse me, but just where are the Big Swingin’ Dicks of the Federalist Society on this schlock ?!?!
seriously, have been led to believe guys like Bork may hold views distasteful to me but were at least intellectually nimble and polished, well versed in legal canon, bending it like Beckam, etc.
in the past they have always endeavored to validate their guys - is it safe to assume the rather loud crickets over there means something ??
replay of lieberman’s earlier appearance this morning on Imus coming up shortly. The hypocrisy and phony integrity probably fit better to the heading of the previous thread, but there you have it.
I have to say, that there seem to be a lot of former DOJ types, including IMO, Comey, who think they can just fix it and go forward without further embarrassment to the Department. They don’t want to tear down the Department to build it up again. While I understand their point, I disagree with it.
This will sound so sexist, but unless you have scrubbed a lot of bathroom tiles (ie, been a housewife doing battle with black mildew) you know that you can just give the shower walls a simple wash down and go forward. That might stop the mildew form getting any worse, but it won’t get rid of what you already have.
Nope, you have get out the clorox, put on the gloves and get in there with an old tooth brush and scrub and scrub. Sometimes, you have to file out he old grout and regrout. If you don’t get it ALL, the mildew will regrow.
It’s housewife’s wisdom, which may be that the folks I hear who seem to indicate that they don’t want to tear down the Dept. to build it up all happen to be men. Like I said, it sounds really sexist, but the former law enforcement womenfolk I have talked with, seem to see things my way.
This admin. has been about seizing the US gov’t. for very perverted reasons all along.
Yes, the media.
‘xactly.
Part of what offends me so much about Lieberman is his total refusal to hold hearings on the Katrina mess. Another case of, oh, we’ll just go forward from here.
And lessons of history, not to mention accountability fergawdssake, never learned.
I prefer to look at this like cancer - you have to cut it out and dose it to kill it all.
There aren’t any transcipts of the panel discussions that I am aware of. Somebody from the organizing committee is supposed to be writing an article for the Citibar newsletter.
One thing that he said that stuck me, was that in non public briefings about the USA scandal, McNulty kept telling “fibs” that would be obvious as such to anyone familiar with how DOJ works. So, for example McNulty told Whitehouse that some of the fired USAs were fired for poor performance–but that DOJ didn’t want to embarrass them by saying that publicly–and then McNulty was floored that Whitehoouse knew about the EARS process (its how USA and their offices get performance evalutations) and asked to see the EARS reports for those USAs.
Either McNulty didn’t know that Whitehouse was once a USA hmself, or, I don’t know what. But Whitehouse evidently had a a lot of “gotcha” moments like that.
Yeah the Nazi’s used the law to give the “appearance” of legality for their actions when they legally came to power. They used the argument that these were necessary actions to protect the homeland in a time of crisis. Weak or intimidated opposition parties were ineffective in preventing the power grab. Why does this sound so very familiar?
Nobody knows the mildew I’ve seen,
Nobody knows but Jesus . . .
So maybe we need to send a lot of old toothbrushes to the Senate Judiciary Committee, as well as to the Democratic Presidential candidates.
One of Sheldon’s first big moments on the SJC stage was when he was grilling someone about the number of people at the White House and the DOJ who could contact one another about potential prosecutions. Under President Clinton, the number was something like 7; under President Bush it jumped to the 400s. Pat Leahy sat back in awe and admiration as he watched Whitehouse turn the witness into putty, saying something like “The Senator from RI is out of time, but he can use the rest of mine. I’m very interested in this line of questioning.”
It’s not just “let’s get some new bodies in there, and things will be fine.” Structural changes are needed, to roll back these kinds of practices that unduly inject politics into the legal system of the nation.
LHP your comment is not sexist, it is the truth.
Your perspective represents the best of femine sensibility and consciousness, which this nation and the world desperately need.
Would that the women, now in power (one,in particular, comes to mind) might evidence that understanding of political ‘mildew’.
You are simply, a treasure to the rest of us.
Appears to me that you just get better and better.
Thank you, for the many insights and broad perspective you offer us.
LOL - clorox and elbow grease….. amen.
What it sounds like is like we need a woman to clean up this mess!
Heh-heh.
To a fascist the Nuremburg Trials were “show” trials. To anyone else they were an instrument for determining accountability of those charged with war crimes. When will the liberals and progressive begin to frame Republicans as the heirs to fascism?
LHP for AG!
hmmm… except then she might have to stop writing here.
I respect the need for security and privacy.
But I also see a contradiction that having to be secretive to express one’s views especially when we are free speech advocates.
Why do we have to live in fear of having a scarlet letter pinned to us for our political views?
Duh? Where is my brain? I’ll send it in about a minute
1,814 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Please pardon me if I seem a bit crabbier’n usual this mornin’ but I get ta go see the spine doc in a few minutes to find out if I’m gunna have surgery er not…so please indulge me or not if yer a Nazi.
First off, thanx fer sharin’ Whitehouse’s presentation at the retreat. It is great ta hear that there are still folks in positions of authority or influence who retain a firm grasp of the meanin’ of “the rule of law” and equal protection under it. However, for the last seven years I have been frustrated by all the hand wringin’ and smoke blowin’ from those “liberals” who lament the destruction of our constitutional system but are unwillin’ or unable ta offer any action ta do anythin’ about it.
It seems that we have lived through a recurrin’ nightmare…the fascists break the law and bind the country to precedents that defy reason and human dignity
RE: Perris @ 31
so what this administration is saying is “The Military and their Uniform Code are just a bunch of wussies, they don’t have the guts to protect America, but we’re the real men!” If I ’supported’ the troops that way, I’d watch my back. Especially if I had as little military experience as this bunch of 4Fs and draft-dodgers.
my point is that some people may feel the need to keep their names off the blogging net. others may do it, not out of need, but out of a desire to protect their privacy. everyone has the right to privacy.
and privacy is not the same thing as secrecy - i think you are confusing the two.
loosehead,
thank you SO much.
wow is all i can say for your posts.
gets me through the day, heck, the whole week.
do you have any idea of how much you raise our intelligence level? and the impact of your clarity of thinking? geez, THIS is Democracy!
I guess you just can’t stand any kind of unity. Even on an issue upon which we should all agree and over which we should be outraged. Reading the post, I had almost remembered that the most critical thing was to correct these horrible abuses of power.
Sent the email with the speech attached
…and all our elected representatives do is gnash their teeth and pull their hair and lament the passing of civilized behavior. When is a Senator Whitehouse or Leahy or Finegold gunna stand up and offer proposals to act to bring the law breakers under the boot of the law?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE AIN’T WORDS FOR FRUSTRATION LIKE THIS!!