h/t pbo31
I have great sympathy for Christopher Edley, Dean of the Boalt Hall School of Law at the University of California, Berkeley. He didn’t hire John Yoo — he inherited him from a predecessor, and all the baggage that came along for the ride — but he’s the one who has to deal with the firestorm over Yoo’s Torture memo. I have no doubt that the phones in the Dean’s office have been ringing fairly regularly, the mailboxes (electronic and otherwise) have been filling fairly regularly, and the procession of complaints arriving by other means have been coming by fairly regularly as well.
To that end, Edley released a statement: The Torture Memos and Academic Freedom. Edley makes clear the general disdain for Yoo’s memos, but says this all must be set aside under the rubric of academic freedom.
My sense is that the vast majority of legal academics with a view of the matter disagree with substantial portions of Professor Yoo’s analyses, including a great many of his colleagues at Berkeley. If, however, this strong consensus were enough to fire or sanction someone, then academic freedom would be meaningless.
. . . One can oppose and even condemn an idea, but I do not believe that in a university we can fearfully refuse to look at it. That would not be the best way to educate, nor a promising way to seek deeper understanding in a world of continual, strange revolutions.
The cry of "academic freedom" may cover a multitude of sins, but it doesn’t cover everything — as the Dean well knows. At the end, he says this:
Assuming one believes as I do that Professor Yoo offered bad ideas and even worse advice during his government service, that judgment alone would not warrant dismissal or even a potentially chilling inquiry. As a legal matter, the test here is the relevant excerpt from the "General University Policy Regarding Academic Appointees," adopted for the 10-campus University of California by both the system-wide Academic Senate and the Board of Regents:
Types of unacceptable conduct: … Commission of a criminal act which has led to conviction in a court of law and which clearly demonstrates unfitness to continue as a member of the faculty. [Academic Personnel Manual sec. 015]
This very restrictive standard is binding on me as dean, but I will put aside that shield and state my independent and personal view of the matter. I believe the crucial questions in view of our university mission are these: Was there clear professional misconduct—that is, some breach of the professional ethics applicable to a government attorney—material to Professor Yoo’s academic position? Did the writing of the memoranda, and his related conduct, violate a criminal or comparable statute?
Absent very substantial evidence on these questions, no university worthy of distinction should even contemplate dismissing a faculty member.
Oh, but Dean Edley, that may be a relevant excerpt, but it’s hardly the only relevant passage. There are a lot of reasons short of the commission of and conviction for a criminal act that warrant the dismissal of a faculty member. Just ask Ward Churchill or Luk Van Parijs. That Academic Personnel Manual section 015 [pdf]that you cite is a well-written document, and it lists many more reasons for removing a faculty member than conviction of a crime. (Other sections add even more — it’s a big manual [html with pdf links].)
To borrow the language of my academic discipline, the mortal sins in academia — at any school, in any discipline, for any faculty member of any rank — are these:
- plagiarism– passing off the work of others as your own
- misrepresentation in citations – citing other works, but misstating their actual contents
- selectiveness of citations – omitting any discussion of works that conflict with one’s own views
- failure to disclose conflicts of interest
- fabrication – inventing data, fictitious books and articles, elements of one’s CV, etc.
- improper use of human subjects in research – failure to follow institutional protocols, lack of informed consent, etc.
- misconduct in professional relationships – using the power of one’s position to improperly force subordinates to do things against their will
These are the kinds of things that get people booted every year from tenured teaching positions, and they have nothing to do with controversial views. Judging from some of the commentary by looseheadprop, the legal eagles at Emptywheel’s place, and other scholars of the law in both the posts and the comments around the legal blogosphere, these are the kinds of things that Professor Yoo ought to be worried about:
In addition, the fact that Yoo’s memo was classified — for no reason related to national security — seems to indicate a keen desire to avoid having this memo go through any kind of rigorous peer review. That’s hardly the mentality one would expect of a scholar at a top-flight school like Boalt.
So, Dean Edley, the ball remains in your court (so to speak). Instead of worrying about "some breach of the professional ethics applicable to a government attorney," how about worrying about Yoo’s evident breaches of academic standards that are applicable to a academic professor?
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zed and thanks for reading my mind. I really wanted a post on this.
Yoo and Bizerkley… oil and water. I guess that’s the price for “diversity”?
Super post!!! Bingo.
Wouldn’t these reasons apply to Henry Kissenger also?
I don’t get how its about “academic freedom” when it applies to something he did, and presumably concealed from the hiring committee, before he was tenured. Its one thing to use tenure to advocate for difficult ideas, or to argue that your difficult ideas don’t affect your work (like a physicist who also believes in creationism) but Yoo’s previous work is, itself, a crime. Its not the ideas that he expressed but that he put into motion that are at issue. Its not a free speech question at all.
aimai
No, it was after.
Yoo was hired in 1993, granted tenure in 1999, and then took a leave of absence when he went to work for the Bush DOJ after the elections of 2000.
Edley became dean only in the last couple of years, and Yoo — with tenure — was already on the faculty at the time.
I went back and read. Great post. thank you so much.
Academic freedom, my irish ass!! I am fricking outraged that the Dean would choose this position. I’m not donating another dime to my alma mater, ever! This poseur cut and paste anything that would build his case and doesn’t even seem to care that we are a democratic republic not a fricking imperialist nation. or supposed to be.
The retaliation and persecution of Diaz is an abomination.
BTW, I went and checked out his books on Amazon to see what the comments would be and there are indeed “academic” wingnuts shouting down negative reviews. What gives? When did I sign up for fascism?
Also, Berkeley isn’t automatically the bastion of the free speech movement. It draws as many conservatives as it does liberals. believe it or not. perhaps that is one reason why Yoo has survived thus far.
Gawd, I can’t stand it! /rant
Yoo advocated breaking our laws and the Geneva Conventions and set it in motion. Is that not a crime?
Isn’t planning to rob a bank a crime – a conspiracy?
Aw, later for this noise. Yoo’s a conservative Republican – hasn’t anyone seen him doing something odd, disgusting and illegal that involves sex?
I had found the dean’s argument weak but couldn’t begin to articulate what it was that was so flimsy. Thanks, Peterr, you articulated it well. I’m with Jofish, but can’t we get some diversity that didn’t spit on the constitution?
If you know someone has the intention to commit murder, and you write an opinion showing the murderer how to get away with it, knowing that your opinion will be relied on to get the murderer off, if caught….
Well….what’s the difference?
You all probably caught this already. My attendance at the lake has been spotty. But for those who missed it, read Scott Horton’s Tale of Three Lawyers, from Harper’s.
The Boalt Hall home page has an item up right now near the bottom under “More News” that looks interesting: Dean Edley Hosts Open Forum Meeting with Students (audio). The link, however, is restricted to students and alums with CalNet IDs.
If there are any current UCB students or UCB alums out there with CalNetIDs, I’d appreciate it if you could go give it a listen, and let the rest of us hear what transpired.
Two words:
moral turpitude
Oh hey, that’s one of the links in the above posts. Slinking away now. ugh.
With the glory of 20-20 hindsight, I can suggest that Berkley’s big mistake was granting him a leave of abscence rather than making him quit to go to DOJ. Gee, if they knew then what they know now,…..?
Diversity and academic integrity are not mutually exclusive.
Crap. I don’t have a calnet ID. otherwise I’d qualify. I’ll look into later today since I have to fly to an appointment now. many apologies.
Thanks again for the post Peterr.
Not to mention, what hiring committee at a prestigious Law School would consider hiring someone who posited that the 4th Amendment is inapplicable when dealing with, how did he put it, “…our Office recently concluded that the Fourth Amendment had no application to domestic military operations.”?
No Law School outside of perhaps Regent University would want a faculty member whose demonstrated lack of understanding of the constitution on its faculty much less teaching anything about it. Oh, and look what he’s “won” as a professor.
(From his UCB Bio, my emphasis).
Once you win the Bator Award, does that make you a Master?
O/T But i had to share the ridiculousness that is the right wing.
The article is called, Obama’s Other Jeremiah Wrights and talks about (via TPM) Barack Obama’s “complicity with rappers dates back to at least 2006.”
I’m so beside myself right now, all I can do is look over at self and nod
*sigh* true
I have some other kinds of questions:
* What kind of students, and how many of them, are signing up for Yoo’s classes?
* Are any of his classes “required”? If so, why?
* If Yoo offers a course, and no one signs up, what then? Does he get paid for it anyway?
* Are there departmental standards for how many students must enroll in order for a professor to get credit for teaching it?
Many places I’ve been will pull any course that doesn’t draw enough students. If the administration sees that students are boycotting his classes, they’ll start looking for reasons to fire him.
Bob in HI
I’d hate to be the next prof to walk into Edley’s office and ask for a leave of absence.
Edley might also be kicking himself a bit for the questions he didn’t ask when he was interviewing for the dean’s position in 2003 or 2004.
Think how bizarre it would be if it said:
Hillary Clinton’s “complicity with rappers dates back to at least 2006.”
John McCain’s “complicity with rappers dates back to at least 2006.”
“…what hiring committee at a prestigious Law School would consider hiring someone who posited that the 4th Amendment is inapplicable when dealing with, how did he put it, “…our Office recently concluded that the Fourth Amendment had no application to domestic military operations.”?
No Law School outside of perhaps Regent University would want a faculty member whose demonstrated lack of understanding of the constitution on its faculty much less teaching anything about it…”
__________
Ding, ding, ding.
Yoo MoFo.
Heh, I think these two offenses were clearly evident in Yoo’s Torture memo…
Where was the Youngstown cite or discussion…?
Which will just get him onto the Wingnut Welfare rolls that much faster. Or, if McVain wins, a Supreme Court Nominee.
What does “complicity with rappers” mean? I don’t listen to rap but if I did would I be complicite? Makes no sense to me.
How do you think Edley will act if Yoo is indicted for war crimes, or anyone using his “legal” opinion as law is indicted? Yoo is advocating the breaking of laws, federal, state and international. This is rather different than free speech, no?
The right wing echo chamber was relentless in calling for the dismissal of Ward Churchill. They picked and picked at loose threads; they screamed at the top of their lungs until they finally got him out.
Yoo has committed far greater sins than those of Ward Churchill.
Obviously, it means that you’re gangsta… jeez, didn’t you know that? So simple even a caveman could figure it out. LOL.
Perhaps Edley is afraid of what might happen to him or his family…you never know…after all he’s dealing with torture advocates in the most powerful positions in the world.
Wingnut Welfare ain’t what it used to be, at least for BushCo lawyers. AGAG is having a heckuva time finding a real job these days.
Stories like that can’t be happy reading for John Yoo.
It’s neither Yoo’s speech nor his views that are grounds for firing: it’s his behavior. It defies the clear expectations of the academy and also brings disrepute upon his employer.
Edley must fire Yoo now.
It’s the lyrics that rappers use in their songs and that he (barack) is an apologist when it comes to these ‘foul’ lyrics. Now stay with me….because so many of these foul mouthed folks back Barack (including wii.i.am) he is complicit in the message that they are spreading through their lyrics.
I have been waiting for this post all day. Thank you Peterr. Building the case, and the momentum to help the Dean do the right thing, is soooo important.
I suspect that the Dean believes that since Yoo has already done som very much damage, that Yoo shuld not also be means for eroding academic freedom, and while I am sensitive to that concern, I believe that just like PAtFitz’s careful nuanced and surgical used of compelled tesitmony from reporters, a careful nuanced and surgical use of academic (and Bar) discipline couldbe undertaken in the case of Yoo.
He is, in some ways, analgous to Judy Miller. Both betrayed the ethics of their profession. Both knowingly peddled false information expecting an unsuspecting public to believe it based upon the prestige of the nstitutions they worked for. Both are willing to damage the prestige of their host institution b yinducing that institution to put it;s credibility on the line by misciting some very noble, but actually inapplicable, virtue in defense of their indefensibale conduct.
Just as a reporter sheild law would not have prevented the compelled testimony of Judy Miller, so her cries of being a free speech martyr were comletely bogus, so too is the free speech defense of John Yoo.
Nobody, not even me is denying Yoo’s right to go out into the street and proclaim his r=deranged theories, jsut not to lie about the cases he is citing in support of them and not ommit the cases that demonstrate how bogus his cockamamey theories are.
We need John Yoo as Judy Miller graphic, we really do.
To the Dean, don’t be as big a fool as Punch, don’t humilate yourself and your school that way.
The article and the argument the author ( I use the term loosely) are bizarre. The comments? yeah they’re out there too
Speaking of which, Card and Rove are having some difficulties at speaking engagements…! ;-)
Actually, I think Edley has a point to a certain extent. Broadly speaking, he’s saying “Look, I’m a dean, not the Head of the International Criminal Court. You want to convict him of war crimes, fine — but don’t bring that trial to Berkeley. Bring it to the folks at The Hague.”
What he doesn’t address, however, are the academic sins that seem to permeate Yoo’s torture memo. These are precisely the kind of things that a dean ought to be concerned about.
What a bunch of hooey! Economy down the tubes, our kids dying in a stupid war, poor health care etc and these yahoos are worried about rap lyrics. They should get a life and shut up. Maybe I am a gangsta – as JoFish says. Or gangsta-ette.
Lawyers from Boalt, as well as all other institutions, must also shun Yoo.
Jesse Choper, William Kelley and Susan Estrich, I’m looking at you.
True, Abu went so far over the top that no one wants to be associated with him. I hope he’s saved up enough money to live on post-Bush.
Not sure where the vaunted “bush loyalty” to subordinates is with respect to Abu G. but I have to figure that perhaps when he “cools down”, and barring any convictions/disbarrment post Jan 20, 2009 he’ll be drawing a nice little stipend from CheneyBurton or Carlyle or someone as a do-nothing “board” member, a position for which he is perfectly (and by profession) suited for.
I am such a freakin’ nerd. I was just about to Google Bator award… and then it hot me. LOL
Wingnut welfare isn’t working very well for Abu right now. What makes us think it will work for Yoohoo?
YES!!
Of course, when you consider the role of David Addington in both the Libby mess and the Yoo memo, it’s not surprising to see the same method of operation being employed by the OVP.
O/T the Hardball College Tour with Crazy train is on. Hmm interesting crowd..it’s like a sea of vanilla pudding
Thanks for this post, Peterr. You’ve taken Yoo right where he belongs.
Dean Edley must act.
Don’t forget Joanie Caucus Redfern on that list.
No outrage on Yoo’s words that have killed countless but it wasn’t pressed onto a CD and his pants aren’t baggy so he isn’t a menace to society at all. Rassholes
There is this, in the preamble to Part II of the section 015 document:
Emphasis added.
The consequences of the legal opinions he rendered were torture and the commission of war crimes. It is quite likely, as many have discussed, that he was asked, in drafting the memo, to justify the torture and on Friday Bush made a point of referring to the legal opinions he got justifying the torture. It seems to me that this is enough and is what differentiates his case from a “simple” academic freedom case in which he was merely advocating repugnant ideas. He knew exactly how the memo would be used and wrote it anyway.
I have no clue how Berkely does it, but when I was teaching if you were an adjunct faculty and not enough people signed up for your class, it got cancleed and you didn’t get paid. Like being a temp.
If you were full time faculty and not enough students signed up fo ryour course , it got cancelled bt you still got pad your base salery. It would nt effect your bottom line unless it was an “extra” course about your required courseload, in which case you might lose your bonus pay.
The hard sciences are so much easier. I would equate this to the Dean of a physics department having to answer for a resident professor who published a series of papers in effect arguing that the rules of gravity no longer apply so humans can fly if they wish.
Well, as Douglas Adams wrote, the trick to flying is throwing yourself at the ground and missing. The only reason I bring this up is because both Adams and Yoo wrote fiction.
But what do you do when a member of your academic body argues directly against the very principles of your department. If you had to hold up Yoo as an expert on Constitutional Principle, you’d be a laughingstock and it sound like Mr. Edley knows it full well.
I guess you have no problem with Georgetown University hiring George Tenet. What rule of conduct at Berkeley has Yoo allegedly violated? What rule of professional conduct has Yoo violated? What law of any state or nation has Yoo violated?
BTW, according to the course listings for the Spring 2008 Term, Yoo is teaching 220S – Constitutional Law: Structural Issues, and next fall he will be teaching 220S again, 226.2 – Foreign Relations Law, and team teaching 223.8 – California Constitutional Law
He will not.
The Students at Berkeley need to have themselves a good old Mario Savio type rally. That’s when things got done.
Exactly.
Was he asked to find out if torture was legal or illegal, or was he asked to find a way to get around what he already knew was illegal? It seems pretty obvious with how it was written, that it was the latter. They needed a document that said what they wanted it to say. Addington or any of the others could have written such a memo, but they chose Yoo as a patsy, so that if they were caught, they could say it’s his fault, because he gave us the wrong opinion.
I’m a bitter gangsta.
Great piece, Peterr.
I have to respectfully disagree, I think you are just a tad off the mark
The Physics professer can argue that the effects of gravity no longer apply, so long as he does not lie about what his citations say, or engage in selective citation omitting those authorities that demolish his argument.
teaching constitutional law? wow.just.wow
Great post, Peterr.
Many ‘professions’ find themselves in low repute, the legal profession, the medical profession, the psychological (heh,heh) profession, and then there are bankers, wall streeters, realtors and so on … a cast of thousands, but some, such as ‘lawyers’ Yoo Addington and Gonzo, are simply glowing with slime … the most nasty and meanest, the true ‘elite’, as it were.
Why should a University dean not enjoy some spotlight?
‘Academic Freedom’? I think not.
Such an excuse, for that is all that it is, in this case, is but several rungs below that last refuge of scoundrels and prominent scoff-laws …
The stain, spreading, tests the mettle and morality of all whom it touches, and vitually everything hangs … in the balance.
Will the dean blink, pontificate, squirm and equivocate?
Or, will he rise to the most serious test of his life.
Ho hum. What would be the ’safest’ most profitable thing for him to do?
What does our current social ethic suggest?
How highly do universities wish to be held, or are they become but ’safe houses’ for intellectual (haw!) miscreants? Of a certain ‘persuasion’.
Not so much a law as a commandment:
Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.
As a constitutional lawyer, I guess I’d expect his interpretations to be factual rather than so blatantly false.
But what the hey, it’s not like the ten commandments are laws, any more than the Constitution…anymore.
Did you read the post? Misrepresentation of source materials and improper selectivity in his citations are two of the biggest violations of the codes governing all faculty members, and Yoo appears to have done both of them. Repeatedly.
I’m not saying to ignore the content of Yoo’s memo on torture, or to give other BushCo alumni a pass. I am saying, however, that if you want to put pressure on a dean to take action against a faculty member, it is a helluva lot easier for a dean to act based on academic misconduct than on an un-adjudicated charge of war crimes.
I love Edley’s “chilling effect” canard.
Way more chilling than the prospect of a president being able to have citizens surveilled, disappeared, and tortured at will without recourse, I guess. Things that Yoo advocated.
That little bit of analysis is exactly what needs to be IMHO the crux of any argument for kicking Yoo from classroom to curb to Court.
His work was used to justify torture, and he used his “talents” to write an opinion that was not good enough to stand up to impartial analysis, but worked just fine for “high government officials” who wanted legal “cover” for their actions. His willingness to put his name on a document that was unnecessarily classified only makes him look more the fool and more deeply complicit in subverting my Constitutional rights (because yes, I enjoy 4th amendment protections every day).
Fortunately for Yoo, any court he ever goes before will still be bound by the “quaint” strictures of the US Constitution. Something which might make him breathe a sigh of relief, although he probably doesn’t deserve it.
I’m not sure if I understood you correctly.
FWIW, Chemists caved in on bisphenol A, a cancer causing agent in plastics
EPA drops ball on danger of chemicals to children
Agency oversight panel out of money and, critics say, beholden to industry
A variety of disciplines conspired wrt Merck’s Vioxx
Researchers charge Merck misrepresented Vioxx data
IMO, it’s about the dollars.
Good point, in other words as long as you don’t believe your lying eyes, a physics prof can tell you up is down, and as long as he doesn’t give any contrary source–like reality!
Oh, you mean the politics of science are up for grabs? Well there’s no doubt of that. Just look at the science (or lack there of) with the recent rise in autism throughout the population.
It seems to me that Edley’s response to Yoo’s actions run rather parallel to Yoo’s actions. A desired result was determined before the response/opinion was crafted. The response from Edley was written in a way that punts the issue on to others (mainly the courts, Bar, etc) to decide in the name of academic freedom. Yoo’s atrocity was written in a way to justify the desired result by the administration.
Both of them are rather bogus in intent and in product.
O/T Hardball College Tour
The tough questions just keep rolling in. From a young man:
Are you a typical white person?
Good question. If anyone at Boalt is reading here, wazzup with Yoo’s classes?
Yoo is Professor of Constitutional Law. This Spring he’s teaching 220D (Constitutional Law, Development) and 220S (Constitutional Law, Structural Issues). At least one course in Constitutional Law is required for graduation, but Yoo isn’t the only person teaching ConLaw at Boalt.
Probably. On the other hand, there are 3 ConLaw courses offered this term, and Yoo’s teaching one of them and team teaching the other (development). All of them appear to meet the ConLaw requirement. On the other hand, enrollment is probably capped in those courses, so enough students will be shunted into Yoo’s courses to keep them viable.
There are always minimum enrollment requirements. What will save Yoo’s sorry hide is the fact the he’s teaching in one of the few required classes. Like most law schools, the first year curriculum is pretty prescribed, but there aren’t a lot of requirements beyond that. Yoo’s teaching in one of the two required areas. The idea that Yoo is teaching future lawyers Constitutional Law is horrifying, but I guess that’s better than having him teaching the other required area, which is Ethics and Professional Responsibility.
I wonder if Yoo’s required text for his ConLaw:Structure course is
?
glad you’re watching so I don’t have to.
I have postulated before that the McVain nomination was (at the time) a placeholder for the republicans in an election-year that they really did not expect to win anyhow. “Let McCain have his shot, and good riddance to him” was probably an accurate summary of the last 2007 RNC executive strategery session.
Now with HRC tearing up Obama daily over nothing, and Obama responding, the republicans are probably just sitting back, collecting sound bites and creating gigbytes of YouTube-based smears for the fall. I notice that McVain is raising money, so someone must think he’s got a snowball’s chance.
OT
Interesting numbers via TPM:
it’s not easy. There are a large amount of well lets just call them a bit removed from college aged folks there. So far, I am underwhelmed
Two of my least favorite people in the public sphere. Why am I watching??
I wasn’t too familiar with his numbers from last week so has there been any movement?
IT is not merely the Constitution which Yoo has trampled, it is the underlying principles of morality upon which civilization, such as it is, MUST rely for SURVIVAL.
If this is not evident and clear to Congress, to university deans, to judges at all levels and to the ‘people’ – then we are lost, completely and totally.
I keep asking myself that too but yet I’m still watching and gagging
The lesser of two evils, indeed.
Problems may arise, however, if the students all push to avoid Yoo, just the stink of having to push so many into Yoo’s sections will create yet another nightmare for the dean’s office.
In other situations, I’ve seen an uproar like that drive a dean to request that the unloved prof step aside and a new prof to take the required course.
Good to see you, BC!
Not much. Most of the polls are kind of frozen which can mean several things. A) the Bitter flap hasn’t cost him in points B) the Bitter flap stopped his MO C) people are sick and tired of it all already.
Personally I vote for C.
McCain being asked given Obama’s background (no breaks, father left, lived in 3rd world country- Indonesia) why he thinks Obama is elitist
You had better be a whole lot more specific if you are going to go after someone’s job which you are doing. Your demands and the basis thereof border on platitudes and selective prosecution of the worst order.
Why do you ignore George Tenet?
He just said that Obama signed the piece of paper that said that if the Republican nominee takes the Federal funding, so would he.
Did Obama sign it or just say it?? Fact checking.
We are talking about Yoo today. The brief against Tenet, and that against Feith, and that against Kissinger, is equally valid. But today’s discussion is about Yoo.
answer:
i don’t know, i don’t know what shapes his views, I don’t know what would cause someone to say something like that (referring to Obama’s bitter remarks). Frankly, those thoughts have never been in my head. (cut off by tweety)
Hmm I call bullshit
-
wow ! who knew ?
Exxxxcellent PeterR!
can not shake the words of one of his students -
his work did not promulgate ideas
his work promulgated actions
OT-Rumsfeld to pen his Memoirs…
He filled out a questionaire about two candidates (when they are the nominee) agreeing to some sort of public financing but he himself never signed an agreement.
baffle them with bullshit
If you want specifics, check the links in the post. That’s why they’re there. LHP, EW, and others have done a very good job of illustrating the academic misconduct — and I’m pointing out that the job of the dean is to deal with academic misconduct.
As for ignoring George Tenet . . .
As they say in academia, “that subject, while interesting, is outside the scope of this particular study.” I haven’t read his stuff, haven’t seen it dissected, and haven’t given it the kind of attention it would need before addressing it. In other words, I’m just looking at one case right now, and Yoo is it.
I wouldn’t want to get accused of mouthing platitudes and selective prosecution or anything.
If George Tenet wrote a document that proposed and allowed torture, eliminating civil rights, and generally thumbed it’s nose at the Constitution and had the expertise accorded a full professor of Law, you’d probably be seeing the same discussion about Tenet.
Tenet, while a vile player was essentially a policy wonk who made bad/implemented policy and excercised poor judgement, which is (unfortunately or depending on your POV, fortunately) not necessarily a crime. Many bureaucrats with piss-poor records of achievement have gone on to Academia…Tenet is just one more in that inauspicious line.
Yoo is a horse of a different color, IMHO.
I’m not tired of the bitters yet. They say it’s good for digestion.
Seriously though, the deal really isn’t hurting Obama. He’s basically spoke the truth about small town America–if you haven’t been to a small town lately or have relatives who live in one, let me bear witness for you–and there’s no doubt that they are upset, bitter, and more inclined to be influence by things they understand: God, guns and fear of brown folk.
That’s not elitist it’s just kind of true. Now he could have said it better and he has, but trying to make the flap about a African American guy with a single white mother from Kansas being elite; well even the bitter folks are laughing at that!
I’d say let it roll. If this is all they’ve got to tear him down then he can move on to talk about real issues in the vacuum that this lack of logic leaves behind.
Could it be that no advance was offered and this is way of looking magnanimous?
Then that needs to go into the McBitter bullcrap file.
I’ve got to run to a soccer match — The Kid is anxious to get playing again, now that the snow and rain has disappeared. I’ll check back later to see what happens next.
Ok fine, Yoo was on a leave of absence when he wrote the specious memos. Does that make any difference? Maybe not, but selective citation or miscitation in a government memo for his client, the government should be regulated by Berkeley? I would much prefer to hold Yoo accountable for what he did in the court of public opinion than to chill opinion through firing someone without any specific charges as to what rules, regulations or laws were violated. This all sounds like it could be coming from McCarthy with the same generalized demands based on different facts.
LOL
Probably end up on the sale table anyway.
“I don’t listen to rap but if I did would I be complicite?”
Not as long as ya kept your clothes on.
My recollection is that it was a questionnaire.
Do you *sign* questionnaires?
O/T
(CNN) – For a few hours Tuesday morning, the latest campaign trail drama seemed to center not on policy or politics — but on pasta farfalle.
At least three “McCain Family Recipes” posted on John McCain’s campaign Web site and credited to his wife Cindy – including Ahi Tuna with Napa Cabbage Slaw, Passion Fruit Mousse, and Farfalle Pasta with Turkey Sausage, Peas and Mushrooms — appeared to be direct copies of dishes created by the Food Network. Another seemed to be a slightly altered version of a dish prepared by TV chef Rachael Ray.
The similarity was first noted by a New York attorney and appeared in a report on the Huffington Post Monday night.
The McCain campaign quickly moved to quell the controversy over cabbage slaw. “Apparently a web intern added Rachael Ray to our policy team without her knowing it,” McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds told CNN Tuesday morning. “He was swiftly dealt with and the page is down for revision. Our apologies to Food Network …but according to our press assistant the passion fruit mousse is really worth trying.”
Cindy McCain appears to be the only candidate spouse this year to devote a share of the official campaign Web site to recipes; neither Bill Clinton nor Michelle Obama currently have posted their favorite dishes on their spouse’s presidential sites. No word yet on when the Arizona senator’s wife might unveil a new plan for the nation’s Ahi tuna lovers.
Thank you for your post Peterr!!
Heh, the thought crossed my mind when I saw Regnery wasn’t publishing it…!
Calling Peterr’s argument McCarthyism mistakes McCarthyism for logical argument.
Exactly. Totally misleading. He made it sound like Obama had officially agreed and signed something official.
BS meter….
How can the man teach Constitutional Law when he doesn’t even believe in the document? Does he just say this is a bunch of BS but I’m going to tell you about it?
Is there pressure on the dean from the ‘mortal sins of academia’ standpoint? Well, since he has made his position on Yoo clear.
Once a thief always a thief.
Clearly Mrs McCain has a problem distinguishing “hers” from “yours”
Drugs, recipes, what’s next? The White House china?
It depends on how responsive the Dean’s Office is to student complaints. My impression is that Berkeley’s general attitude is screw the students, we always turn away way more qualified people than we admit.
What I think ought to happen is that the faculty at Cal (generally) and Boalt Hall (specifically) should shun Yoo. That sort of professional isolation will make most people very miserable. For sure, I wouldn’t have agreed to team teach that ConLaw: Development class with him this term, or the California Constitution class next fall.
It’s nice to be back, even if briefly. Midlife crises, dontcha love ‘em.
BC
“appeared to be direct copies of dishes created by the Food Network. Another seemed to be a slightly altered version of a dish prepared by TV chef Rachael Ray.”
That’s funny. Should have called it McCain family “favorite” recipes…
He’s probably going to say that the Constitution is BS, and here’s why.
There was a comp sci professor at my college whose classes were so unpopular that the section he wasn’t teaching were wait-listed while his were open. (He quit not long before they would have given him tenure.) He wasn’t bad the same way Yoo is, though.
I think McBitter just scared the bejeebus out of the students…war with Iran…”If we have to send these young people into harm’s way”….Man, their eyes got really round!!!
State Universities, even those as illustrious as Berkeley, are perennially underfunded and so rely on alumni to fill the gap. It is when the alums start to rebel that the dean starts to listen. The pressure needs to come from the profession.
McCain is dangerous
So a hypothetical:
if a professor of medicine takes a leave of absence and goes to work for the Bushies and administers torture to victims in his capacity as a doctor (working for the feds officially and at the same time violating his Hippocratic oath) and then returns to teach medicine there should be no connection made? I don’t think so.
Yup, and I think the applause was quite diminished after that little bit of “straight” talk.
Maybe we’re looking at this the wrong way. Maybe it’s a good thing to let Yoo teach an elective class. Then see who takes the class and keep a good eye on ‘em. By that token, Bill Kristol should be required to teach some classes too.
my edit :)
…because he will draft them to fight the neocon wars.
thank you Peterr!
hi peterr–nice post, haven’t caught up on comments yet, so don’t know if anyone brought htis up yet–
i can understand the danger of imposing/infringing into the areas of academic freedoms-the republicans have doggedly been trying to do that to ’liberal’ universities for a while now and is an important thing to protect-however yoo’s memo isn’t such a thing, it was created before he was at the university and would be considered a ’work product’….
they were unaware that he wrote it when they hired him.
if someone misrepresented themselves by not disclosing unethical conduct at their former employment it seems to me that is the same as falsifying a resume, could be an ’out’ for the dean.
it’s not academic freedom, it’s work product, before he ever went there.
unethical work product.
means for dismissal at any job where ethics is ’required’ and where you have to sign a code of conduct.
misrepresenting yourself, means for dismissal.
could have worded it better, in a hurry, didn’t want to get epu’d.
bbl
“I will contest every vote of every young American”….
OK, folks, straight from my DH, who is the president of local of the academic and professionals union of a fairly large state university and also the head of the grievance squad. He has had charge of defending many, many academic and professional employee cases and he says, (short version) – “BS”. He did this when he was on a leave of absence from the institution — academic freedom is no protection for him.
It’s not supposed to make sense. It’s supposed to create an impression for a portion of the voting public that Obama is the kind of black man they’re scared of or uncomfortable with, just like foul-mouthed gangta rappers.
It’s classic racist BS, intended to create an association, which makes it difficult to combat without reinforcing it.
Tweety: I don’t like the term “pro-choice” the woman’s ultimate right to choose…
Fork you Tweety.
Bingo.
It has nothing to do with academic freedom. He was working outside of academia when he wrote the opinion.
There you go. Ding, Ding, Ding.
Did you actually read Peterr’s post? did you click on the links? He is quite specific and backs up what he is saying with examples.
As to selective prosecution, can you give us specific examples with links of mis citation in a scholarly paper Tenet has written? Something concrete that we can discuss?
If Yoo had written the opinion as an article while a Professor…then academic freedom would apply.
That is not what happened.
ditto what you said, LS
McCain: Rights of the unborn is my biggest value
rassholes, the lot of them
sorry peterr–haste makes waste
just came in the door and wanted to get the comment in, since it has been on my mind and now reading the post, see that you mentioned misrepresentation…..(red face)
well, good, cuz it is, it’s not academic freedom!!!
Moral turpitude, indeed.
But if the debate is going to be framed as one of intellectual freedom (and that IS how it’s being framed) the faculty will likely circle the wagons around Yoo. I think the proper route to take with this is to point out that Boalt is (in part) a trade school. Professors there teach (in part) by being exemplars for their students. Yoo has so damaged his intellectual credibility with these opinions that he is a counter-exemplar. That’s not the sort of person who belongs on a faculty.
I still think the thing to do is to send Yoo to Coventry (shun him, provide him office space in a broom closet, schedule his classes in a way that makes his life miserable) and wait for him to leave of his own volition.
BC
BC
By the way, McCain admires no one so much as excellent athletes.
Take that, troops.
I think the best thing about this is that it gets the idea out there that “Ahi Tuna with Napa Cabbage Slaw, Passion Fruit Mousse, and Farfalle Pasta with Turkey Sausage, Peas and Mushrooms” are “McCain Family Recipes”.
Who’s calling who elitist?
as a Berkeley resident and CA taxpayer I rise in protest.
McCain to students: “I thank you for being so fortunate as to attend this wonderful institution….”
Tell DH thanks from us pups
Hmmm so is anyone else challenging the dean on it?
HI BC
hiya pun!
On the other hand, what Yoo did clearly break the code of professional ethics of the Commonwealth of PA. But someone who really knows something has to file a complaint with the Board of Discipline of the PA supreme Court.
Sorry, that’s a popular misconception. Yoo was a tenured full professor at Boalt before he went to work for BushCo.
Afternoon, everyone…
Perhaps the McCain and Clinton campaigns could post recipes for new ways to use tuna, mac n’ cheese, beans and rice, and peanut butter…the staples of those people who’ve lost their jobs or try to live on minimum wage.
There is no way in hell that Cindy McBitter cooks.
“I served this country in difficult times and under sometimes difficult circumstances….”
You know, if someone else doesn’t bring it up in every Hardball segment, he’s managed to reference the Hanoi Hilton quite effectively every time.
the chore is a simple one;
ask his colegues in the respectice courts to initiate hearings to disbar
I hope someone has the guts to ask him how John Sidney McCain III, who launched his general election campaign at an airfield named for his grandfather thinks he can get away with calling anyone elitist.
(h/t Rachel Maddow)
Don’t you have Passion Fruit Mousse at least once a week? I do. :)
Interesting that the headline coming out of the McCain interview on Hardball is about Obama’s elitism.
These people have surpassed self-parody.
Well, yeah. “McCain Family Recipes” are the ones they fondly remember the serving staff bringing them.
707
Passion Fruit Mousse sounds kinda, um, San Francisco — if you catch my drift.
And I think you probably do.
I know, I know. *shaking head* what no chili made with beer (she has to get free supplies) not to mention the fact that who honestly believes that she cooks?? I don’t, not for a moment otherwise why the jacked recipes.
Our discourse is stupid
Hee, hee!
Yes, it’s no different than if he mis cited in a book or in a law reveiw article while sitting in his office at B
erkely. WHen writng the book his employer is the publishing company, when writing the law review article his “employer” is the law review. None of these violations are direclty linked ot his employemnt at berkley, only such mis citations in a lecture or class handouts would be covered then.
Is McCain an elitist? Why yes..and his wife’s recipes are too!!!
The staff serves it to them when Lindsay comes for dinner.
hehe not bloody likely gonna happen
I have been involved in a number of tenure disputes. In this situation the key to removing Yoo is establishing that his acts constituted moral turpitude.
Don’t kid yourselves, removing him will be a tough and expensive.
teehee actually all the recipes sound very cali, don’t they?
hi looseheadprop, this is from one of your responses over at empty wheel’s
as you discusssed earlier, yoo has told the president he can commit a crime, he has produced a legal document that a president will use and has used to infact commit that crime and probably murder while they were at it
there are very few things in my mind that could be disbarrable if this memo is not
What would that entail?….
Ummm…advising the President of the United States that if he follows XY&Z, he can torture away at will…no problemo.
That might work.
But is there a basis for removal in your opinion and do you think if the alumni screamed and pressured enough (as well as the legal community) that they would try to remove him?
In Martha Stewart’s first shows back on tv after going to prison she made jailhouse recipes from things available to inmates (apples from the mess hall, margarine pats, jelly packets, crabapples from the yard) and able to be made in the microwave because the ladies on her ward had a microwave in their common area. She said she was going to add Microwave Recipes to her magazine because she saw a need in that respect.
Maybe Cindy can contribute!
I feel a “fever” coming on…*g*
1,813 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen leftdcin72 and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Let me help you out here, Citizen leftdcin…if a left wing professor of ANYthin’ in a major land grant university had authored a memo to be used to justify torture and the abrogation of the Geneva Conventions, would that academic be allowed to hold his tenure? Now, look at the history of the academy, particularly but not limited to public universities over the last 50 years. Ideological attacks on scholars and scholarship have left huge holes in all the of the liberal arts and smaller breaches in the experimental sciences of major universities. The protection of tenure which originated to protect the “unpopular” ideas from rule of the mob (read “the church” here) has been turned on it’s head and is not extended to lines of thought that challenge the status quo or more particularly the corporate line. And those expressions of contrary ideas usually end in the removal of tenure. So, let’s bring what pressure we ken on Professor Edly to open a process of inquiry into Yoo’s actions and writings and test them against the written standards of academic conduct. Edly doesn’t hafta take a stand initially, he jest hasta open the door to informed inquiry and peer review…let Yoo’s professional brothers and sisters reach judgement on Yoo’s actions and his fitness to continue to represent the high standards of intellectual and professional integrity of the University.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LETCHER LIBERAL SENSIBILITIES PARALYZE YOU!!!
and has anyone noticed for the past month that mccain has slowly changing his voice? been using a sloooow, caaaaalm, metronomey kind of voiiiice wheeen heee taaalks.
making sure there isn’t a touch of anger or aggression in it.
bet you a nickel he has hired a voice coach, and they have told/taught him to leave any aggressive emotional tone out of his speech….
gpa harry. ’i am harmless’ ’wouldn’t hurt a flea’ stark comparison to obama and hillary, who have been going the opposite direction hyping up their voice tones.
i heard him in the car on the way home, and it is a striking difference….i thought he was ’talking funny’ lately
but when i heard it going around curves in the country by a stream and it almost put me to sleep, it hit me what he’s doing.
countering the ’angry man’ image…with his voice, very smart.
sneaky as hell.
(kathleen turner did the same thing with a voice coach, wanted to be lauren bacall)
Cindy don’t eat no stinkin’ microwaved food!! She might give the recipes to her staff to use though.
I have tro disagree, htere is no “academic freedom” to mis cite and selectively cite urce material. The “freedom” attaches to the ideas, not the methodology. The latter is quite regulated as demonstrated by the excerpts the Peterrr cited.
even then she would have someone else on the staff give it to her staff. I wonder if you can microwave napa cabbage? *g*
Very well said, as usual, looseheadprop…geeze I like the way yer mind works!
Hi Peterr,
Thanks for the great follow up. I hope the legal eagles at Boalt take this one up and run with it…like they should.
The law is not a dispassionate institution, neither is academia. There has to be some sort of feedback and outrage when the very underpinnings of both are attacked by a tenured professor at Berkeley’s Law School. Folks like Yoo advocate for a return to a system of government in which the law doesn’t really exist, only the rule of The Leader. He certainly doesn’t belong anywhere close to an institution that reputedly believes in the US Bill of Rights…which, Dr. Yoo seems to have sworn allegiance to disingenuously.
ummm and how prevalent is passion fruit let alone passion fruit puree in most small towns?
Yes, yes, I see what you mean that if he had been at the University and written the memo(s)…the fact that he mis-cited, etc., would have been a huge issue.
I meant that since he was on leave, and in a working capacity elsewhere, rather than writing it while he was at the University, it would mean that academic freedom wouldn’t apply as an excuse by the Dean to claim that academic freedom applies. Does that make sense?
In my opinion there is a basis for removal. I beleive the work he did on these memos was fraudulent.
But, having fought these tenure removal wars before, believe me when I tell you they are very difficult. Plus, in this situation, you can count on Yoo being represented by excellent and very well funded counsel. Not to mention, the mighty wurlitzer will be roaring in the background about
academic freedom for conservative ideology.
I think they upped his serotonin levels. If he releases his medical records, look for SSRIs.
Let the tenured faculty of the University of California School of Law judge his professional fitness to hold his position.
All those “little people” in all of those “little” towns in America eat passion fruit mousse…doncha know…just like the McBitters.
in actuality, the use of “academic freedom” as a defense is usually made by a professor who is being attacked by his department – that is, the department is seeking to get rid of the professor. In this case, the law school is, at least from a public perspective, not trying to get rid of Yoo. The dean seems to be using this “bloody rag” as a distraction. Now, if only someone would file a valid detailed complaint petition with the Disciplinary Board of the Supreme Court of PA, AND Yoo were found guilty and was disbarred, THEN the law school might have to do something.
I believe I have the answer for the dean, something simple that will set the stage for exactly what must be done;
yoo passes two of these three criteria
he committed a criminal act and he has clearly demonstrated unfitness to continue as faculty
all the dean has to do is make that statement, like so;
“I believe professor yoo has committed a crime and I believe he is not fit to serve as faculty, but I am not the justice system and my hands are tied unless or until yoo is convicted of the crimes I believe he has clearly committed”
man, if the dean might have that kind of courage, it doesn’t have to be worded as strongly as I wrote and I am sure he can put together something far more eloquent then I put right there but something along that line, stating that he believes yoo has in fact committed crimes against our government, man that would go a long way, yoo might even be embarrassed into resigning without having to fire him
I sure hope they do something about it.
I have passion flowers growing on my fence. With time I may have passion fruit. I will then test Cindy’s recipe.
I suppose they (the commoners) could stop by one Crazytrain’s 8 convenient locations and borrow a cup-o-puree
I had a big one, but it croaked from all those butterfly caterpillars…I just planted some from cuttings, and they are struggling…never ate the fruit though from the big one….
egads true and the right wing noize machine would be off and running about the liberal bastions that are universities…blah blah blah
No, academic freddom Alway s applies IMHO. to the IDEAS. By the same token, the rules of intellectual honesty always apply if you want to be an academic.
It doesn’t matter where you were or who you were working for when you wrote whatever you wrote, the ideas are always protected, but the sourcing must always be true.
If you are working in private indutry (or for Addingtron) you may have less of a requirement ( though I don’t actually believe that) , but if you came to academia, everyhting you ever write in you life, counts. It must all be free from plagerism, and correctly sourced and cited. Everything.
let me tell you something, that disbarment is all that’s needed and I believe yoo would not subject himself to the trial at all, that he would accept disbarment or withdraw before they disbarred
this is really what must happen, the law profession really must get together on this and petition the respective precincts and get these proceedings under way
once under way, it will be made clear that anyone who acted on yoo’s memo would not be shielded from our law, that “orders” to torture do not give you permission to torture even though you have those orders
this is really the only thing we have since impeachment is off the table
but this is a doozy and if we can somehow make the disbarrment happen it will send a chill through the administration and they will know their jig is up
Oh, I would love to have passion fruit flowers (and of course the fruit) It is my favorite fruit. We eat them everyday in Brasil (definitely not an elitist fruit there)
So does anyone know a good Philadelphia lawyer that might be willing to pursue charges against him?
Gotcha! Finally! *G*
ahem…my point, exactly.
Horowitz & his little gang of budding young book burners would have listed them as on their website of “Liberal” Academics who are traitorously engaged in poisoning America’s impressionable young minds…
A non-lawyer here, and perhaps I’ved missed something. If so, apologies.
But referring to the “physics professor who teaches that the law of gravity no longer applies” . . . wouldn’t he have a problem if, to disseminate his theory, he took his students to the top of a tall building and told them to JUMP. Would students who declined to JUMP fail the class? What is the teacher’s responsibility to the students, parents, university?
IMO (again, not a lawyer), if Yoo is standing before impressionable students, cherrypicking citations, and teaching, in essence, how to make what has been accepted as illegal into LEGAL, is he FIT to teach?
not personally but are there lawyers, law scholars there making noise about Yoo?
This is the ‘bingo’!, LHP.
‘Methodology’, unscholarly, dishonest, and evident …
By the way, I am certain that your ’series’ on Yoo is succeeding in precisely the ways you hoped it might. Much appreciation.
academic freedom appies but not to commit crimes, to use a familiar analogy, you do not have the ”freedom of speech” to shout ”fire” in a movie theatre when there is no fire and you do not have academic freedom to incite crimes some believe are worse then murder
academic freedom is not innoculation against breaking our law
Here is one for you…you can almost smell it..
http://farm1.static.flickr.com…..ce9be6.jpg
ooo so pretty!
I remember the first time I planted one, what fun it was all summer with the exotic blooms vining up the porch posts :)
i’m getting homesick :( for the northeast. *sigh* thanks. Do you know how well they do ‘outside’ of the tropics?
that is a great analogy right there
Other than Scott Horton, LHP and those who hang aroung here, I would imagine there certainly should be.
They do fine in Central Texas…even with frosts…but I don’t know about prolonged cold..
we’re in Cali no prolonged cold here
Gorgeous! I had three passion flower vines, but lost two to weather or caterpillars last fall. The one that is left is really taking over. I don’t mind the caterpillars because mine were feeding the zebra heliconian butterfly which is not that common.
http://www.butterfliesandmoths…..n_state=48*Texas
You’d fail my class if you didn’t conduct a bit of independent testing with an object other than yourself, just to verify that I was actually correct, prior to taking the plunge. Rigorous testing, proper modeling, etc, etc…
good. So what is the consensus for action to take?
getting him disbarred first?
Slam dunk and the speech given by Powell at the UN
BEAUTIFUL butterfly. So the passion flower plant is a butterfly catepillar magnet, huh?
If they did try to strip him of tenure, the legal line-up would be the University’s counsel versus Yoo’s private counsel with a probable intervention by counsel for the AAUP.
better he be disbarred first?
Disbarment and removal from UCB faculty should be undertaken simultaneously. There is no reason to wait for one or the other to occur first…just like there is no reason to buy into Edley’s strange assumption that only by committed and being convicted of a crime could Yoo be disbarred. My guess is that some students, if not other tenured profs, made some official complaints at this point…if not yet, probably by the end of the week and certainly by the end of the term? If you’re at Berkeley, get the ball rolling!
The Congress has taken impeachment off the table so it is now up to professional and academic institutions to take initiatives to correct the amorality embodied by people like Yoo. Do you want to be taught by a law prof who would sell you down the rive because his masters told him to right a(n il)legal opinion that removed your right to habeaus, removed any constraints on a tyrant who didn’t happen to like your political opinion?
There are some (I believe in one of the threads at EW) who believe that he is saying pretty close to that in the memo we are discussing. At the very least, one can do a bit of stretching and interpret the memo as saying that his ability to get rid of Yoo is made much easier once there is a conviction.
Maybe you should read the transcript of the Scopes trial. Yoo is a bad guy, ok. But kicking him out of Berkeley accomplishes nothing. Better he remains visible and accountable at least to those who want to deal with him in any way.
oo what a pretty butterfly! are the caterpillars important looking? I find that butterfly caterpillars are more “elite” than moths caterpillars.
It wouldn’t hurt, but it is not necessary. And, actually it would be easier.
Yep. Depending on where the vine is growing, the caterpillars from the beautiful butterfly can make the area really, really messy. I have a friend who has the vines on her porch and the floor of the porch gets covered with caterpillar goo and poo. Even after she ripped the thing out, the caterpillars kept coming up on the porch and making their chrysalises on her wall. They were kinda like salmon returning to their homeland to spawn!
Perhaps when the ‘methodology’ is determined, the means by which Tenet may be brought before a ‘court’ of some justice, LHP might well have some thoughts about such a situation.
Beyond that, however, those two ‘events’ which you cited are certainly among those crucial, central ‘points’ when dishonesty (risen to the level of treason, perhaps) engaged deliberate actions and set in motion events which have had tragic and bloody consequence.
They are both bitter though.
of course it does, and it accomplishes no small thing at that
it rebukes, repudiates, redicules and turns him and his “opinions” into a pox
his writings must not be given any weight at all, any and all repudiation will accomplish quite a bit indeed
The caterpillars are wild looking. They have really long black hairs sticking out all over. There is no mistaking them for any other species. If you click on “more images” on that butterfly page you will see one of the caterpillars peeking over a leaf.
This is the butterfly that is peculiar to passion flowers, and it is the one whose caterpillars ate my gigantic vine completely bare…then it died…
http://www.wunderground.com/da…..949/41.jpg
I hope my cuttings work, but I’m not sure yet…
As are ladybugs, let me tell you! (I accidentally ate them as a child. . . long story.)
Were they bitter?
I haven’t read the University’s protocol, but am as sure as a Christian holding 4 aces in a game of 5 card stud, that it is far more complicated than the Dean of the law school saying or doing this or that.
Academia doesn’t work like that. If there could be a committee, there will be 3 of them at a minimum with appeal rights up the old wazoo.
Bitterflies
Ah. I think those are the ones that messed up my friend’s porch.
hmm i would plant it near the fence in the back. I just wouldn’t want the to chew the hell out of the plant.
salmon back to spawn, lol. persistent suckers, huh?
the reverse jim;
he has said the reverse, he does not find it clear that yoo has committed crimes, that is actually giving yoo’s opinion some weight.
this statement he’s made is not a repudiation of yoo in any sense of the word, it is actually saying their is daylight between those points of view
that is something I do not want to hear
Yes. They tasted like almond extract. They are the reason I don’t eat maraschino cherries.
Cindy McBitter’s passion fruit non-elitest dessert:
http://d3.biggestmenu.com/00/0…..dc78_m.jpg
I think i’ll make a note to ask my aunt to ask the fruit guy (they are in Brasil) how he handles the catepillar problem.
Ultimately Yoo is a minor player in the U.S. morphing into a fascist state. Firing him from the U.C. Berkley may feel good for the moment but will not accomplish all that much. Getting Cheney and Bush to the Hague would be justice. [edited by mod]
[Mod Note; Please do not suggest acts of violence be carried out on others. Thank you.]
I *have* read the University’s protocols, and you are right. There are several committees involved, each of which has to vote on removal of a tenured faculty. The only vote that ultimately matters is that of the Board of Regents, when they vote on the recommendation that emerges from the process.
It’s a long journey, but generally speaking, it’s the dean that takes the first step.
That is the Gulf Fritillary. In the heliconian family.
they look like long pin cushions
You plant more vines than you have butterflies. *g*
Just found out mr. gnome is still in Houston and won’t be home for awhile, so I think I will go out for a bike ride. We’ll talk butterflies later.
that is an intimidating dessert. Hell, my mom used to just open a can of fruit cocktail, pour it in a bowl, add a dollop of yogurt or whip cream and viola.
I actually don’t personally thing much should be done by the university or even by the bar association to this piece of manure. Had he given or relayed direct orders to torture, arranged logistics or funding for torture or rendition, managed a torture camp, designed (under cover of authorities) the policies of torture, or, by his own hand, tortured, it’ll be a different story (he’d be a war criminal), but so far all we know is that he wrote memos giving justification/political cover for the policies for others who were determined to torture. This is deplorable and entitles him to derision and contempt in this life and consignment to the hot place in the next one, but its probably not prosecutable or even tenure-yankable.
Yoo is valuable for another reason – he is the proof that men more legitimately in the chain of command were interested in sanctioning torture under cover of authority (and who should be held legally accountable for their actions). Presumably, shurb or somebody else in authority went up to him and said “write me a memo that supports my right to order torture” or “I’m torturing people and I need a memo that helps justify my actions to the world/” His testimony against those men should be compelled, and they should be prosecuted for their crimes… up to and including Big Time and Shrub.
have a nice ride
Well, I certainly mangled that second paragraph, the mental ‘edit’ function deleted certain ‘connective’ phrases.
It should have read:
Beyond that, however, those two ‘events’ which you cited are certainly among those crucial central ‘points’ when dishonesty (risen to the level of treason, perhaps) engaged deliberate actions and set in motion events which have had tragic and bloody consequence.
you have created a contradiction of terms, the latter is the first, that memo in giving justification is the same thing if as a lawyer he told you that it is legal to commit murder, you then go and commit that murder
he is an accomplice and again, your former is in fact satisfied by your latter
Poetic justice? Hardly.
I want Yoo to be held up to public ridicule as a laughingstock.
I want Yoo’s memos and opinions to be so thoroughly dismantled that no one would ever dream of trying to employ such “logic” again.
I want to help make An Example out of Yoo for every government lawyer who even thinks about stretching the law into something it is not.
Most of all, I want to make Dick Cheney, David Addington, Alberto Gonzales, John Ashcroft, and the other lawyers involved in approving the use of torture and subverting the Geneva Convention very, very nervous.
To borrow from The Princess Bride, I want Yoo to suffer “Humiliations galore!”
(Yeah, I know: it would take a miracle . . . but we’re talking about a noble cause here, so I’m looking for a miracle.)
Yes, it is a long and winding road. In addition, after completing the University labyrith, you can find yourself in the ferderal court system.
How was the soccer game, Peter?
I’ve been enjoying the mental image of him teaching in the janitor’s closet to a dozen empty desks *s
I guess the operative question here is under what authority were his memos written? Any policy analyst (or pundit, for that matter) can be asked by those in authority to write a memo justifying any policy those employers want justified. They have no authority to implement such policies. A decent person, upon being ordered to write a memo justifying an illegal policy, would quit rather than do so, but clearly Mr. Yoo isn’t a decent person. Unfortunately, following such an order in the absence of authority to carry out the order is not necessarily a crime. We’d have to research the terms of Mr. Yoo’s employment, but if he’s like most policy analysts, he’s outside of the chain of command, and thus outside of the chain of responsibility for his intellectual excesses. There are good reasons for such a view – if a policy analyst, based on his or her research, determines that a hurricane is going to wipe out a town and recommends the evacuation of the town, the president then orders that evacuation, it is mishandled, and people die, should the policy analyst be culpable?
How about like that scene in Real Genius where the students aren’t there, only their tape recorders?
yoo enjoys the authority of a presidential request, he was acting in an official government capacity and he is criminally responsible for his actions
The elitist Lazlo was bitter he wasn’t in that scene.
Yes, may ‘ideas’ such as Yoo’s never again defile the ‘humanity’ of humankind, for all the rest of our specie’s ‘tenure’ …
Let us put an end to such conceits, such appalling inhumanity, let it be done with.
Our children deserve no less of us …
Lots of fun . . . and now there’s one seriously exhausted six year old ready for dinner.
LOL!
And that’s one of the best things about soccer. He’ll sleep well tonight.
I think this is where we disagree.. is or is not a policy analyst in the chain of command? My understanding, having once worked as one, is that we are not, and should not. Effectively, we’re the think tank. Think tanks are not prosecuted based on the outcome of their thought, no matter how retarded the thinking. If Yoo was the Director of Interrogation, then it’ll be different.
I’m not saying your wrong, but we’d have to resesarch Mr. Yoo’s job description and the legal extent of his authority. Justifying tyranny or inanity isn’t or shouldn’t be crime.
again, you have stated the reverse;
if a policy analyst instead of recommending evacuation in fact recommended standing their out doors through the hurricane rather then what actually needed to be done, then that analyst is a criminal
you have presented analogies that are oposite what we are talking about with these yoo memos
it doesn’t matter if he’s in the chain of command, if he gives criminal advice and says that action is legal then he is a criminal himself, he is clearly an accessory, no matter where he stands in the chain of command, criminal advice given as a lawyer is a crime
Peter,
I have been involved in two dismissals of tenured faculty. It takes a long time, and it takes pretty egregious misconduct to accomplish.
The Dean’s job would be made much simpler if the courts or the bar took notice of Yoo’s conduct. And I think that’s what he’s asking for, indirectly. He can’t say it too directly, because it would give the impression of prejudice, and he’s supposed to take the recommendation with an open mind.
The dean is caught between Iraq and a hard place. I doubt it’s much fun to be in his job right now.
BC
Then I guess the operative question is, was he functioning as a lawyer (and I’m not a lawyer, so I have no idea what additional requirements your professional oaths and regulatory structure place on you) or is he lawyer functioning as a policy analyst. These aren’t necessarily the same thing.
That’s pretty well determined already. He was working in the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, and he was asked for a legal opinion. He was functioning as the worst sort of lawyer, the sort that gives rise most of the lawyer jokes. The most apropos for this case being, “Q: Why have biologists stopped doing experiments on rats and switched to using lawyers?” “A: Because there were some things the rats just wouldn’t do.”
BC
1. plagiarism– passing off the work of others as your own
Isn’t the Yoo memo Addington’s work with Yoo’s gloss on it?
misrepresentation in citations – citing other works, but misstating their actual contents
lhp covered this with regard to the Geneva Conventions
selectiveness of citations – omitting any discussion of works that conflict with one’s own views
Youngstown and the post-World War II Japanese torture cases
failure to disclose conflicts of interest
That he was working for Addington to provide a legal opinion that Addington could then cite as a controling legal opinion legitimizing torture
fabrication – inventing data, fictitious books and articles, elements of one’s CV, etc.
Yoo invented a whole extra-Constitutional theory of Presidential power
improper use of human subjects in research – failure to follow institutional protocols, lack of informed consent, etc.
I would say that abetting the use of torture against prisoners would qualify for this
misconduct in professional relationships – using the power of one’s position to improperly force subordinates to do things against their will
Again I would cite his relationships with White House officials which constitute misconduct of his office
Oh yeah, and he is a war criminal who aided and abetted the commission of war crimes, torture including murder.
I think LHP was making the point that he is and was an academic prior to working for DOJ, and because of that fact, he must adhere to certain strict “rules”; which he clearly did not when preparing his opinions (he omitted important citations), and that is what the University needs to look at as far as continuing his tenure goes. Something like that. As far as the “legalities” of what he did, that is a matter for justice to determine, not the University. Two different things. This is just my uneducated interpretation of what was said. If justice goes after Yoo, and he is charged with something, then the University can act on that if it violates their rules of tenure.
A careful reading of APM-015 shows that the Dean has mischaracterized the excerpt he cited, namely:
Earlier, APM-015 provides this perspective:
So, not only are there other types of “unacceptable behavior” but that cited is merely one example of one type.
Specifically, I think that disbarrment is similar enough that it should be cause for dismissing a member of the law faculty.
Moreover, as LooseHeadProp has meticulously demonstrated, in failing to cite Youngstown, Yoo generated an opinion thad was certainly a case of professional misconduct, not unlike a biochemist who uses bogus data to vouch for the efficacy and/or safety of a drug manufactured by his sponsor. The generation of such bogus research is another type of “Unacceptable Faculty Conduct” mentioned in APM-015.
I’m not surprised. There seems to be a veritable epidemic of this at the Boalt Law School, first Yoo now the Dean.
I agree. Thus, my opening line.
don’t know what you are trying to argue, he is a lawyer, it doesn’t matter what capacity he was operating under, he gave a legal opinion, that opinion endorsed torture which is a crime
btw
ianal
this is pretty black and white
707!
How could I have missed the plagiarism?
I put some effort into trying to figure out who was on the Board of Regents in 1993.
I found some interesting things:
1. Some sources say Yoo was hired in 1993; others say 1994.
2. Judge Laurence H. Silberman took an interest in California colleges via his wife, Ricky.
3. Gerald Parsky was appointed Regent in 1996. He has also served on the selection committees for the chancellors of the UCLA and Berkeley campuses.
4. Howard Leach was Chairman of the Board of Regents of the University of California in 1994. He was a Bush Pioneer in 2000 and was appointed Ambassador to France from 2001-2005.
He was operating out of the Office of Legal Counsel, whose director at the time was Alberto Gonzales. it is their duty to be the people that the President can count on for accurate legal advise. At the direction of his client, the president, he performed an act of professional misconduct (malpractice), he gave his client a bogus opinion that the client and his henchment could then use in the good-faith variant of the Nuremberg defense, which John McCain validated into federal law as Section 1004 of his Detainee Treatment Act of 2005:
(FWIW: LooseHeadProp assures me that DTA 1004 will have no effect in court. And I sincerely hope that she’s right.)
Here’s the official UC description of their Board of Regents – 18 appointed by the governor, 1 student by the board, and seven elected state officials serve ex officio.
Along with that, here’s a site that lists all the members of the Board of Regents through its history. Sadly, it’s organized alphabetically and not by year.
At the time that Yoo wrote his memo, Ashcroft was AG, Gonzales was the President’s counsel, and Bybee who had headed the OLC left the day before Yoo released it.
One minor correction: Gonzales was White House Counsel, not head of OLC in the Justice Department. EW’s got a timeline of the whole Torture Tapes thing over at her place, that I think outlines who led OLC when this was going on.
That’s right. “Academic freedom” protects diversity of views from censorship by a domineering majority or administrator, intent on imposing its, or his or her views on an entire administration. Noted examples of domineering chancellors from the early 1970’s were Chancellor Tolley at Syracuse and the new head of BU, who arrived at about the time Howard Zinn made tenure. According to Zinn, he made tenure by the fortuitous timing of the tenure meeting, which made its decisions and sent them out hours before news of Zinn’s having participated in a student “sit in” about an important issue on campus.
Academic freedom does not protect shoddy or fraudulent work, the intellectual inverse of “scholarship”. Yoo’s 2003 torture memo alone contains many examples of it. (How would his still secret memos fare?) He mis-cites cases for arguments they don’t support; he claims cases support his argument when they stand for the opposite; he mis-cites to suggest that cases support one part of his argument when, if at all, they support another. He fails to mention conspicuous cases that his arguments have to refute, failing which they fail.
For a lawyer who earned the academic distinctions Yoo did at Harvard College and Yale Law, who already held a tenured position at a top nationally ranked law school, it is virtually impossible to find mitigating factors for that shoddy work. The press of time doesn’t qualify, nor lack of resources. For such work, the OLC would have had carte blanche to borrow resources from elsewhere in the DOJ.
The highest hurdle this memo has to jump is that his missing cites and mis-citations are so artfully done. Which suggests considerable time and attention went into constructing his memo. All of which is damning, separate and apart from the evil done in reliance on them.
I’m deeply disappointed business interfered with my attending the public debate, with You on one side, Monday titled: ‘Would you rather be on closed circuit TV or in Jail?’ and no that is not snark. I’ll be there next time…if there is one.
I’ve been emailing the Dean since the last Dean about You and even though I am a life-time Alumni I’ve never received the courtesy of a response. I an my members, Drinking Liberally, Oakland will be discussing ways to move forward on applying real pressure on the Dean re: You.
One thing I do not believe has been made clear to the University: There exist many individuals who’ve been harmed, deeply, by those acting in accordance with Yoo memos. I cannot conceive that liability will not attached to the University for Yoo’s part as actively breaking the Geneva Conventions and his role in promoting torture in defiance of international law.
I wonder what the situation might look like in five years with numerous claimants in Federal Court asking for the University and the State to make them whole?
Just the possibility of this happening should be enough to make Dean Edley crap his Brooks Bros. briefs.
didn’t marty say that bybee actually left (officially) some time after that?
here’s marty:
don’t know that this has any bearing on the issue, though.
does that mean that academic standards don’t apply either re: citations, etc.
Great post, Peterr.
I think Bybee’s seat on the appellate bench had been confirmed by the Senate, but he hadn’t formally left his post at OLC, so he was still its head when Yoo sent out his March 2003 memo under his own signature.
That’s one of the oddities about these Addingtonian fig leaves. As deputy head of OLC, Yoo knew he lacked authority to issue that opinion, something well-versed government lawyers like Addington would have also known. Bybee and Ashcroft could have delegated authority to him, but there’s no evidence they did so. So, presumptively, they’re void, but weren’t treated that way.
Ironically, that’s the kind of gap Rove often twists to his advantage in offering his Watergatish non-denial denials. He often uses, “there’s no evidence I did such and such,” as a denial. In fact, it’s nothing of the kind; it just means no one’s produced the evidence to support their claim yet.
That’s a convenient method for Rove for at least two reasons. It encourages opponents to cough up with what they know, telling Rove what knowledge he has to defend against. (Presumably, as the spider at the center of the web, he knows more.) It also helps Karl avoid perjury, because he hasn’t denied a fact, he’s only pointed out a lapse in evidence for it.
Don’t worry too much about it. All we have to do is convince Prof. Yoo to go to a meeting overseas. Surely there is some international meeting coming up that could lure him out.
If I were a student at Boalt, I’d adopt the orange jumpsuit as my daily attire.