Sixth in a series
In 1949 the Court in Nuremberg heard the "justice" case. This prosecution was of lawyers and judges for actions taken to provide a gloss of legality to atrocities committed by the Third Reich.
The "Justice Case" was officially designated United States of America vs. Josef Altstoetter, et al. (Case 3). Of the sixteen defendants indicted, nine were officials in the Reich Ministry of Justice. The two persons who held the position of Reich Minister of Justice during the Hitler regime, Franz Guertner and Georg Thierack, were both dead before the indictment was filed. Between Guertner's death in January 1941 and Thierack's appointment in August 1942, the defendant Schlegelberger served as Acting Reich Minister of Justice. The defendants Schlegelberger, Rothenberger, and Klemm each had held the position of Under Secretary ("Staatssekretaer", also translated as State Secretary) in the Reich Ministry of Justice. Two other officials of this Ministry were indicted but not tried: the defendant Westphal committed suicide in Nuernberg jail after indictment and before the opening of the trial; a mistrial was declared as to the defendant Engert, whose physical condition prevented his presence in court for most of the trial. The defendants who were not officials of the Reich Ministry of Justice included the chief public prosecutor of the People's Court and several prosecutors and judges of both the Special Courts and the People's Courts. Both the Special and the People's Courts were established as important parts of the administration of justice during the Nazi regime.
The Indictment charged the defendants with, inter alia, [which means "among other things"]
charges that the defendants herein participated in a common design or conspiracy to commit and did commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, as defined in Control Council Law No. 10, duly enacted by the Allied Control Council on 20 December 1945. These crimes included murders, brutalities, cruelties, tortures, atrocities, plunder of private property, and other inhumane acts, as set forth in counts one, two, and three of this indictment. Certain defendants are further charged with membership in criminal organizations, as set forth in count four of this indictment.
--snip--
5. It was a part of the said common design, conspiracy, plans, and enterprises to enact, issue, enforce, and give effect to certain purported statutes, decrees, and orders, which were criminal both in inception and execution, and to work with the Gestapo, SS, SD, SIPO, and RSHA for criminal purposes, in the course of which the defendants, by distortion and denial of judicial and penal process, committed the murders, brutalities, cruelties, torture, atrocities, and other inhumane acts, more fully described in counts two and three of this indictment.
--snip--
7. The said common design, conspiracy, plans, and enterprises embraced the use of the judicial process as a powerful weapon for the persecution and extermination of all opponents of the Nazi regime regardless of nationality and for the persecution and extermination of "races." The special political tribunals mentioned above visited cruel punishment and death upon political opponents and members of certain "racial" and national groups. The People's Court was presided over by a minority of trusted Nazi lawyers and a majority of equally trusted laymen appointed by Hitler from the Elite Guard and Party hierarchy. The People's Court in collaboration with the Gestapo became a terror court, notorious for the severity of punishment, secrecy of proceedings, and denial to the accused of all semblance of judicial process. Punishment was meted out by Special Courts to victims under a law which condemned all who offended the "healthy sentiment of the people." Independence of the judiciary was destroyed. Judges were removed from the bench for political and "racial" reasons. Periodic "letters" were sent by the Ministry of Justice to all Reich judges and public prosecutors, instructing them as to the results they must accomplish. Both the bench and bar were continually spied upon by the Gestapo and SD, and were directed to keep disposition of their cases politically acceptable. Judges, prosecutors and, in many cases, defense counsel were reduced in effect to an administrative arm of the Nazi Party.
--snip--
10. ....Many such persons were given a summary travesty of trial before extraordinary courts, and after serving the sentences imposed upon them, were turned over to the Gestapo for "protective custody" in concentration camps. Jews discharged from prison were turned over to the Gestapo for final detention in Auschwitz, Lublin, and other concentration camps. The above-described proceedings resulted in the murder, torture, and ill-treatment of thousands of such persons. The defendants von Ammon, Engert, Klemm, Schlegelberger, Mettgenberg, Rothenberger, and Westphal are charged with special responsibility for and participation in these crimes.
--snip--
13. The Ministry of Justice participated with the OKW and the Gestapo in the execution of Hitler's decree of "Night and Fog" (Nacht und Nebel) whereby civilians of occupied territories who had been accused of crimes of resistance against occupying forces were spirited away for secret trial by certain Special Courts of the Justice Ministry within the Reich, in the course of which the victims' whereabouts, trial and subsequent disposition were kept completely secret, thus serving the dual purpose of terrorizing the victims' relatives and associates and barring recourse to any evidence, witnesses, or counsel for defense. The accused was not informed of the disposition of his case, and in almost every instance those who were acquitted or who had served their sentences were handed over by the Justice Ministry to the Gestapo for "protective custody" for the duration of the war. In the course of the above-described proceedings, thousands of persons were murdered, tortured, ill-treated, and illegally imprisoned. The defendants Altstoetter, von Ammon, Engert, Joel, Klemm, Mettgenberg, and Schlegelberger are charged with special responsibility for and participation in these crimes.
I could go on and on, but you should click the link and read the indictment for yourselves. It's a real eye opener.
You should also read the opening statement made by the prosecution.
BRIGADIER GENERAL TAYLOR: This case is unusual in that the defendants are charged with crimes committed in the name of the law. These men, together with their deceased or fugitive colleagues, were the embodiment of what passed for justice in the Third Reich.
I found this passage particularly evocative. It could be spoken today (well, if you took the reference to Germany.)
But a court is far more than a courtroom; it is a process and a spirit. It is a house of law. This the defendants know, or must have known in times past. I doubt that they ever forgot it. Indeed, the root of the accusation here is that those men, leaders of the German judicial system, consciously and deliberately suppressed the law, engaged in an unholy masquerade of brutish tyranny disguised as justice, and converted the German judicial system to an engine of despotism, conquest, pillage, and slaughter.
--snip--
The defendants and their colleagues distorted, perverted, and finally accomplished the complete overthrow of justice and law in Germany. They made the system of courts an integral part of dictatorship. They established and operated special tribunals obedient only to the political dictates of the Hitler regime. They abolished all semblance of judicial independence. They brow-beat, bullied, and denied fundamental rights to those who came before the courts. The "trials" they conducted became horrible farces, with vestigial remnants of legal procedure which only served to mock the hapless victims.
This conduct was dishonor to their profession. Many of these misdeeds may well be crimes. But, in and of themselves, they are not charged as crimes in this indictment. The evidence which proves this course of conduct will, indeed, be laid before the Court, as it constitutes an important part of the proof of the crimes which are charged. But the defendants are not now called to account for violating constitutional guaranties or withholding due process of law.
On the contrary, the defendants are accused of participation in and responsibility for the killings, tortures, and other atrocities which resulted from, and which the defendants know were an inevitable consequence of, the conduct of their offices as judges, prosecutors, and ministry officials.
--snip--
In summary, the defendants are charged with judicial murder and other atrocities which they committed by destroying law and justice in Germany, and by then utilizing the emptied forms of legal process for persecution, enslavement, and extermination on a vast scale.
--snip--
I have said that the defendants know, or should know, that a court is the house of law. But it is, I fear, many years since any of the defendants have dwelt therein. Great as was their crime against Germany was even more shameful. They defiled the German temple of justice, and delivered Germany into the dictatorship of the Third Reich, "with all its methods of terror, and its cynical and open denial of the rule of law."¹The temple must be reconsecrated. This cannot be done in the twinkling of an eye or by any mere ritual. It cannot be done in any single proceeding or at any one place. It certainly cannot be done at Nuernberg alone. But we have here, I think, a special opportunity and grave responsibility to help achieve this goal. We have here the men who played a leading part in the destruction of law in Germany. They are about to be judged in accordance with the law. It is more than fitting that these men be judged under that which they, as jurists, denied to others. Judgement under law is the only just fate for the defendants; the prosecution asks no other.
From the Sentencing Opinion
If the party knowingly aided and abetted in the execution of the plan and became connected with plans or enterprises involving the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity, he thereby became a co-conspirator with those who conceived the plan. It makes no difference whether the plan or enterprise was that of only one of the conspirators. Upon this point we quote from the judgment of the International Tribunal —
"The argument that such common planning cannot exist where there is complete dictatorship is unsound. A plan in the execution of which a number of persons participate is still a plan, even though conceived by only one of them; and those who execute the plan do not avoid responsibility by showing that they acted under the direction of the man who conceived it." ¹
This holding answers the further contention that one connected with execution of such a plan of Hitler could not be guilty of conspiracy, or punishable for helping carry out the plan or scheme as a co-conspirator. It is undoubtedly true that not all of the defendants had any part in the formulation of the plan, scheme, or conspiracy of the Nazi regime's Ministry of Justice to carry out the NN decree, but they did know of its illegality and inhumane purpose and helped to carry it out. The facts show beyond a reasonable doubt that they did knowingly aid, abet, and become connected with the plan, scheme, or conspiracy in aid of waging the war and committed those war crimes [and crimes] against humanity as charged in the indictment. A more perfect plan or scheme to show a conspiracy to commit crimes could hardly be written than was the agreement entered into by the OKW, Ministry of Justice, and the Gestapo to execute and carry out the Hitler Night and Fog decree. All the defendants who took a part in the execution and carrying out of the NN Decree knew of its illegality and of its cruel and inhumane purposes.
[all emphasis, including the part in red, mine]
None of this needs any analysis from me. It is all quite simple and plain on its face. Please do click the links and read the original documents in their entirety.
Many thanks to the Mazel Online Library which has an amazing archive of these documents in a surfable form. You can read the transcripts of the testimony and see the exhibits.
[Editor's note: The photo atop the post, by takomabibelot, features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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“So?”
no comments again?
Oh boy! Another LHP installment!
“These crimes included murders, brutalities, cruelties, tortures, atrocities, plunder of private property, and other inhumane acts”
________
Bu’ush today.
Yay! now to read…
Hoisted on our own petard? Then again when has precedent ever bothered these criminals? Time to call them for what they are.. enablers of a fascist regime.
An absolutely chilling read, for the direct parallels to our judicial system. And yet, this certainly offers hope. A reminder that “the wheels of justice grind slowly but they grind exceedingly fine” (sorry for any mangling of that quote).
It’s purely informational. Scott Hortan has referenced Altstoetter, several of our commenters have. Instead of taking someone else’s opinion about whether Yoo has criminal exposure under this case, I’m inviting you all to read it and decide for yourselves. The links will take you to what appears to be a complete case file at the Mazel online library
C’mon, LHP, it was just a joke. The new “Fitz”. And, allusive of how Cheney would react.
If I were a lawyer, I’d be embarrassed; but I’m an American, so I’m ashamed.
So much for wingnut welfare. This is great news!
Poor Bertie Walnuts.
I too am ashamed, and outraged. I want war crimes indictments against all these Bu’ush pukes as one measure of moral atonement to the world, a world Bu’ush has largely turned against us.
I am “bitter.”
I think that is sorta on topic.
Great post LHP, it seems most applicable to Yoo.
Yeah, that is great news. Abu Gonzo was a Peter Princlple hire whose Fifteen Minutes are over.
Perhaps we should help Bertie with a resume’ contest. I bet the General and the folks at Sadly, No could really do wonders
tofor him.As I was reading through the post I wondered if Karl and Dick had read the book on Nuremburg and decided that it was just the recipe for their success? It is way too much of a coinky-doink as EW says. Or is this just how Evil materializes in the black heart?
The other thing I wondered was what if KO read these statements to his audience, but took out the references to Germany, to see how many people would think it our plight today. It reminded me of the experiment where the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence was found too radical by people who didn’t recognize it as such.
Ashcroft should share the same fate.
LHP, I saw your comment at EW’s shop about thinking these criminals will never be prosecuted. Why are you so pessimistic?
You know Yoo went to Yale Law school, the home of the “New Haven School (of thought–not bricks and mortar) of International Law.”
It was developed primarily upon the work of the legendary Myers McDougal who was for a time the Dean of the School. McDougal and Co-authors Laswell, and later Chen produced a series of books outlining International Standards for law, human rights and even the role of law school to train lawyers not just in law, but in leadership.
I had the privilege of studying International w with Prof. McDougal at a time when he was splitting his time between Yale Law School and my law school. I last studied Human Rights and World Public Order under Professor Chen.
Years later, I attended a post JD certifiacte proagrm at Yale law School and mentioned in passing something that Prf. Mac had told me about the building. EVERYBODY at Yale knew who Mac was, what he stood for and the legacies of reveence for Human Rights he left behind.
John Yoo ought to have known that at well.
Thank you LHP. Every day this administration is in power is another day of dishonor to this country. Their war crimes trials will be a necessary part of the U.S. reparation and reconciliation process.
In a related vein, what Digby says…
Sorry, slow on the uptake today. Littleprop had a mob of kids sleep over last night, I spent much of yesterday pigging out on Doritos, Dominoes, just all junk food.
My normally macro biotic body is in a state of shock. Did you know that Nacho Cheese Doritos stain your fingers orange? I had to scrub them with a brush to get it off.
He’d get free room and board at the Hague….
That’s like the really bad joke about the guy who went to the doctor because his privates were orange. When the befuddled doctor asked him how he spent his days, he said watching pr0n and eating cheeto’s.
OMG! I cannot imagine what your body is doing to you today if it is normally macrobiotic. I eat healthily - not macro and not totally vegetarian, but I would be really sick if I ate Doritos.
Thanks, LHP, for my new favorite link, the Mazel Online Library. What I’ve browsed there so far is riveting.
Couldn’t sleep last night & ended up watching The Good German, which I’d never seen. Dialog/general plotline were eery, given the Yoo, Principals, & GWB “I approved it” revelations:
Bernie Teitel: They want me to decide who the ardent Nazis were. Truth is, it was the whole country. Nobody’s hands are clean…
This guy? Drove one of the gas vans. They’d load the Jews in back, run the exhaust inside.
Bernie Teitel: [inhales] By the time they got where they were going, they were already dead. Very efficient. Driving to work, he killed more people than Al Capone in all his years in Chicago.
But if you asked him, he isn’t a murderer, he’s a truck driver. And he still thinks that.
mmmm, can I recommend drinking a whole lot of water? That’s one heck of a lot of salt (much less the rest of the chemicals)you took in yesterday. Wow.
What a Kabuki dance it all was. The idea that it was could have been–and deliberately was–left to a mere deputy assistant attorney general to sign off on such a thing as torture.
But then that was par for the course at DOJ under Bush/Cheney. Check out the new Lichtblau gook–Bush’s Law–and you’ll find that the # 2 official in the Ashcroft Justice Department–Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson–wasn’t read into “The Program,” the NSA wireless taping. To his credit, Thompson refused to sign the papers put in front of him regarding “The Program” which he had not been “read into.” To his discredit, however, Thompson did not insist on being “read into The Program”–which is what his successor as DAG, Jim Comey, did.
The whole thing is sickening.
Doritos have a very high amount of Monsodium Glutamate (MSG). Eat at your own risk and if you are a migraneur at your peril!
I totally can imagine how you feel because the same happens to me when i eat cooked food now.
BTW, excellent post
Oh, I think that would make a great KO segemnt. Let’s see if any of his producers are reading FDL today?
I think it’s the coloring they put in the Doritos; otherwise they’re only normally bad for you. (I get baked tortilla chips when I feel the need for that kind of munchies.)
I wonder what Cheney does to anesthetise or remove the consciences of all these people? I can’t believe that all of them are so uncaring and nearly inhuman. You might get better treatment from the Borg.
We know Nancy has taken Impeachment off the table. You tell me which of the 3 presidential candidates you believe will authorize the next AG to prosecute?
With Edwards in the race, I had a tiny glimmer of hope, but now?
And the Nuremberg trial were held by the victors in a world War. The US may not enjoy the stature it did pre-Shrub, but we are still a world power, do you honestly think that they will get prosecuted at the Hague w/o the consent of the next president?
OMG! LOL, no 707
None, although I hold out the most hope for Obama with respect to that. If there is enough conclusive “hard” evidence, he might follow up only because he might not want to pull a “Jerry Ford”.
I’m not a pure macro bio–more like a Wholefoods type. And I do eat meat.
I just think white sugar and white flour and such are like crack. And don’t get me started on High fructose corn syrup.
Except at Christmas which is all food crack all the time. CANDY CANES!
Look, I like snark as much as the next guy, but this whole thing is unbelievable.
How ‘media’ can obsess on Sen. Obama’s ‘bitter’ comment and gloss over the White House torture cocktail party is mind boggling.
Since it was an ABC story, did “This Week” at least touch on it this morning?
Wobblybits. Left you a bit more at #272 2 threads down (Talking Heads)
nothing earthshaking
looks like u better stay up here & babysit Oilfieldguy, heh.
No migraine, just bloated and sluggish and that “I can’t believe I ate the whole thing” kinda food hangover.
It was fun though, the kids had a blast
Thank you, LHP, for another installment in your John Yoo Memorial Lectures. A discussion of the cases he ought to have read, cautions he ought to have advised, before he imagined powers that do not legally exist.
You know, I keep floating this mind control brain chip idea, but nobodies buyn’ it. *g*
It is astounding how fast Cheney seems to flip some of them. When Mukasey said waterboarding wasn’t torture I thought I was having a hallucination. He had only been there a few weeks!
Cheney is just SO evil that he has a contagious effect on anybody exposed to him for any length of time.
Oh, I don’t picture anybody pardoning Shrub. Just not prosecuting him.
Gonzo and Yoo however, seem to have am implacable foe in Sheldon Whitehouse if his speech yesterday at the criminal justice retreat are any indication.
Can anyone tell me why this blog, and this blog only, locks my computer up for 3 minutes before allowing me to enjoy the spirited debate I’ve come to love here? Was it something I said? I don’t understand. My hair is still curly and my eyes are still blue, so why don’t you love me like you used to do?
Nice work LHP.
Yeah, the Bushies have done, exactly, exactly, what Americans hung Nazis for at Nuremburg.
I hope, before I die, to see the next set of Nuremburg trials and for George Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft (yeah, sorry, in some sense he’s even worse because he knew it was wrong) either swing high or go jail for life.
Dunno, I was busy making buckwheat pancakes for the kids at the time. Missed all the shining heads this AM
It would be nice to hold those two $4 hookers of the legal profession accountable for their bullshit. All it requires is backbone and a willingness to be -gasp- partisan.
Just read it and couldn’t agree more *g* (except Pat Buchanan makes my tummy haurt so I just don’t watch him)
You don’t even have to be partisan…just human.
I’ll bet Whitehouse’ keynote speech was a doozy. Greatly looking forward to a transcript, & yr. post on it.
I don’t know if our new front page editor will let me milk this topic for yet another post, but yesterday, Sen Whitehouse was talking about yet ANOTHER case that, like Youngstown Steel, undercuts (actually completely contradicts) Yoo’s position in the memos–AND IS CONSPICUOUS BY ITS ABSENCE.
It’s a doozy.
I believe that Digg and some of the other widgets aren’t happy until they get loaded, so you just have to be patient is all. After all, you did make it, eventually.
I don’t think it’s us, it’s probably just the NSA. *g*.
We love you.
You’re not from LI are you?
Look forward to that, LHP. I agree that Obama holds the best hope of moving to war crimes trials. It’s got to be done. The whole world has seen the pictures.
Not just the Nazis, we prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding. And more recently we have prosecuted others for waterboarding. It’s a fucking crime.
I would get the migraine because MSG is one of my triggers.
No mention that I saw this morning of Bush admitting, on record, that he approved “harsh interrogation techniques” which means torture to most people. I guess the media feel this field has been plowed. Remember when Greenspan said the Iraq war was about oil, and Tweety and the rest of the press merely nodded and shrugged their shoulders? Prior to that point, any blogger or pundit making that claim was roundly shouted down as ridiculous, unserious and a wacky conspiracy theorist. Immediately after Greenspan made his “revelation” it was deemed “conventional wisdom, widely understood, therefore no longer “new” or “newsworthy”.
Funny how that works.
Mine does that too. Waatching the status line, it’s ‘Digg’ loading on every frontpage post. (’Spotlight’ didn’t do that.)
Agree with that. Someone needs to ask Obama about that. He might not want to comment publically, but it’s gotta be asked.
Yeah. Next time he’s on & you’re in the mood, watch with the sound off. It’s almost funnier. You can’t help but feel his pain. Well. I figure he earned every bit, so suffer sucker. Ain’t no sympathy here to spare for the square.
Thanks for the answer dakine01. “Eventually” is not exactly what the intertubes are about and annoying readers is not a good business model.
Okay, gotta go vote for Obama delegates. Thanks again, LHP.
How’s this for “the question.”
“Do you think prosecuting former Government Officials would damage our Democracy, or would it be Democracies finest hour?”
Link please.
If we don’t have war crimes trials, some sort of public accounting for what has happened, a pall of guilt & complicity may strangle this country, as revelations on the extent & scope of this seep out as they are bound to do, however piecemeal, however slowly.
Bush admitting to authorizing the discussion of torture is just like him going to the National Archives, taking out that ‘goddamned piece of paper’ and placing it into a shredder on national TV.
Someone in another thread earlier this week said Bush “could eat puppies for breakfast” and no one would say anything.
I thought that comment was a little excessive.
Now, I’m not so sure.
Well, just look at it as an opportunity to contemplate the vast information coming your way and savor the moment.
In addition to the Mazal [sp] Library, the Justice Case is well covered by sources available on the web, as is Nuremberg generally. LHP cited to another site in an earlier thread.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/facult.....oetter.htm
I also found the Robert H. Jackson Center’s site helpful; a former Attorney General and Supreme Court Justice, he was a principal architect of the process, woven out of whole cloth for the novel war crimes trials held at Nuremberg, and was its the chief prosecutor. He is regarded as one of the top S.Ct. justices, and possibly the best AG ever.
http://www.roberthjackson.org/
Harvard and Yale host Nuremberg Trials research centers. PBS has a good video introduction, which has the advantage of bringing home that these heinous acts were devised, implemented and defended by ordinary, if tragically flawed, people. European universities obviously maintain research centers; an English one is cited below.
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.e.....t=overview
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nuremberg/
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/trials.htm
George Bush, the giver who keeps on giving, has turned historical research into torture and war crimes into essential current events reading.
Use Firefox with the Adblock and/or NoScript addons. Heck, you can even change the layout of the site if you want with other Addons.
Loo I don’t want to get into My candidate is Teh Awesome, your candidate is teh sucky thing (esp. since my candidate, Edwards, is no longer in the race)
But Obama’s entire record in the Ill. State Leg. spells go along to get along.
His best talent in life (after his amazing speaking skills) is that he has a gift for NOT pissing people off. He is not an “in you face” kinda guy.
His campaign is about uniting WITH the other side of the aisle.
Why would that make him more likely to prosecute Shrub? McCain has this whole bullshit Maverick thing, that might give him some cover if he were to do it.
Hillary could get some cover by saying THIS (torture and shredding the Constitution) is what you legitimately prosecute a president for, not a blue dress, but Obama doesn’t have a “hook” to explain why he would do it and his whole campaign is about NOT getting in the face of GOPers its about united with them.
So, I’m interested in you analysis
Actually, I take it as an opportunity to go to Huffpo, RCP, and Politico. Let me know when you value my time as much as you do your own.
could you be a dear, please, and snag that xtra pair of rose-colored glasses for the poor lad?
Think if I may…if we support McBush/McChaney/McCrazy/McTorture then we are with the terrorists?
Hell, he could eat live puppies and we could hear them scream, and Tweety would give the guy a pass and Rush would still be talking about Shrub’s Package” when he was wearing the flight suit.
Hell, Cheney SHOT A MAN and it blew over in, what?, a week ?
have fun and we’ll see you when you get back.
I’m going to go for a swim, be back in an hour or so
See…that’s what I’m talking about: Solutions. Thanks, tw3k.
Indeed. Obama’s comment was factually correct, an attribute so foreign to today’s MSM sells and today’s politicians deliver that CBS will have to rehire Walter Cronkite to explain it to them.
anyone know a youtube for that glorious melody, Happy Trails to You?
Roy Rogers, was it? Autry? Dang. Ma mind just ain’t so sharp no more.
LHP, Obama has lead a rather safe political life. Here’s my hope, that during his time teaching constitutional law, he truly understands and loves the constitution. He may surprise a lot of people after he gets into office. Assuming he does.
No one thought FDR would be a reformer when he ran for president, and look what he did.
Yeah, I’m a dreamer.
Happy Trails was Roy Rogers. I don’t know how to search YouTube.
The first thing an effective parasite does is anesthetize his host into ignoring his presence lest journalists, CongressCritters or antibodies utterly reject him.
Breaking:
I just hope and pray you are right.
At this point I don’t see any Bobby Kennedy types running Washington. You know, that in your face reform NOW types. But who knows, maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Your welcome. I am a firm believer of being able to control ones own browsing experience.
Buy Dave a virtual latte and he’ll fold. [snark]
Happy Trails Roy Rogers and Dale Evans
Kinky. I like it.
LHP, your bold makes it simple to find the essence of this legal jargon, amazing how easy it is to transpose our current situation onto this dialogue, just a little revision and the similarities become almost scary.
What am I saying, “almost”, it’s scary, no question about it…
here
off to swim
Yeah, Joe Sandler had a conference call about it. They musta like Jane’s post on McCain’s violations.
BUT, will she get the credit she deserves for this? Who delivered the petitions long before the DNC got off its ass? Jane did, and you guys signed them.
This is leadership. I’m glad the DNC is willing to follow
I was indulging in a lame bit of teasing ma’dear, no offense to Trigger. in re bidniss solutioning. but it seems we’re all settled in and happy now, thanks to tw3k’s wizardry.
i’ll be good. promise. ;->
Happy Trails:
http://www.royrogers.com/happy_trails-index.html
was written by Dale Evans Rogers.
scrap that crap this is better
OMG Stop! I’ve fallen down & hatched a vir#$. I was kidding where I had no bidness being. Down puppies. Down. Enough. I surrender.
What was the name of Dale’s horse? I can’t seem to accessorize it.
Something for someone to figure out sometime is — did this re-enactment of the Third Reich happen here by Accident? Or Design?
snark-on: As so many Repubs seem to believe that something so complex as an eye could not have arisen by Accident but only with the interference and guidance of an Intelligent Designer, perhaps those same Repubs might conclude that we got here by Design. Then again, the anti-Accidentally crowd seems to distinguish between “uphill” changes by Design and “downhill” changes by Accident, and this being “downhill” in spades, perhaps they’d go for Accident, after all. /snark
Let’s face it, if any candidate ran their campaign on “I’m going to prosecute the criminals in the Bush administration,” they’d get less press coverage than John Edwards did. Or would be ridiculed and smeared 24/7 by our corporate media. It’s not possible to run as a reformer in 21st century America.
I’m obviously not LooHoo, but I can’t resist taking a shot at this one.
Being the ‘in your face Black guy’ wouldn’t have national appeal.
Hell, he can’t even say someone — not him — is ‘bitter’ without major repercussions.
I cannot believe you believe this would ever happen.
Ever. In a million years.
Your description reminded me of the baseball implement used to prepare a Chinese delicacy - bruised pre-adolescent canine - that may not be on the menu for the Olympics’ opening banquet. Beijing, like Seoul and its less consistent counterpart Washington, is famous for sending its vices to the suburbs when visitors come calling.
tick tick tick
BZZZZZZZZK Buttermilk
no prize for you today.
Happy Trails guys. Don’t we wish?!
If you have not done so already, please sign on to the ACLU’s call for an indpenedent prosecutor to investigate Bush et al for violations of the War Crimes Act, federal Anti-Torture Act and federal assault laws.
Isn’t Judgement at Nuremberg about this very topic? The trials of the judges who carried out the Nazi laws, rather than the high profile monsters who were in charge of the death camps. Very good movie.
Well, if I get a chance tomorrow……………
I will ask the vile little scumbag.
Politely of course.
Anyone in Berkeley, CA tomorrow late afternoon why, come on by and show Boalt Hall what we think.
As far as the front page editor goes I would say that failure to stay after Yoo and this point is a failure of moral values which this site, along with the rest of us, can ill afford.
I have no intention of stopping.
Next: How to use Yoo to Google Bomb Boalt.
murders, brutalities, cruelties, tortures, atrocities, plunder of private property, and other inhumane acts,
you forgot to “bold” this part, and it all sounds too familiar.
Espcially if you are an Iraqi…
I don’t think there is a divine design to it. But I can tell you that in the days immediately after 9/11 when all of LI was covered in this weird fog of ash and fumes, even though the sun was shining, I kept thinking of the scene from the movie The Ten Commandments where the death of the first born of Egypt is accomplished by an Angel of Death depicted as a ground fog.
For several days, I kept saying that if felt like a great evil had somehow been unleashed (Pandora’s Box) and that many bad things would happen now that this evil was loose in the world.
Then the smoke/fog/dust cloud dissipated and I stopped being so superstitious. But maybe evil is cyclical? And maybe we have just been living through a cycle of evilness?
Dunno
There’s only one questions left: “How to bring these evildoers to justice?”
Jack Balkin, Marty Lederman, and Glenn Greenwad dismiss the possibilty, in effect saying, “Dream on.” Perhaps they’re correct, but I can’t bring myself to give up that dream; too much else would have to be given up along with it.
Thanks for reminder.
Did it some time ago.
Alerted others.
Check.
FYI ACLU has started a petition drive to your fav. Congresspeople for a Special Prosecutor. URL through C&L:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/
Neocon on the sofa… These guys were caught snoozing on 9/11, absolutely ignored the looming disaster. When the weight of their ignorance slammed into us, they got “retro-tuff”, like when someone gets their ass kicked will look for some wimp to beat up, carrying the poor sap around with him to show everybody how tough they really are. Magnify and project this sandbox melodrama onto the world stage…and there you go. It shouldn’t be all that simple, but I haven’t seen anything to prevent that opinion.
oops, I guess in part 5, you DID bold those words, sorry, I was skimming the first time around!
Oh no, I don’t believe McCain would do it or Hillary either. But if either of them actually wanted to, they each have a plausible “cover story” at hand.
Obama has not shown any evidence of being an in your face guy –and I agree that’s how he had made it to the position he is in– nor does he have a logical rationale at hand to allow such prosecutions.
This was just an analysis comment. I have no realistic hopes from any of them
Done, and thanks for the heads-up. (But why is it still acceptable to refer to waterboarding as “simulated drowning.” There’s nothing simulated about it…it’s controlled drowning. I digress, however….)
Thanks once again, LHP. You have laid out quite clearly why Yoo’s legal justifications for toture and Executive Power cross over from “protected speech” to actionable criminal behavior. It’s much the same as individuals making plans for an assassination, making direct threats, or offering a bribe if some act is undertaken. One can try to justify these acts as simply being “Free Speech” but the expectation of action as a consequence is so high that it is not considered as such under common law…and never has been.
This needs to be sent to the Dean of the Boalt School of Law at UC Berkeley (and the President of the University of California) to clarify precisely why Yoo’s ACTIONS while acting as legal counsel at the Justice Department constitutes more than abstract speech…but a patent and palpable, NECESSARY act requisite to justifying torture.
THAT, and it would take Congress realy putting pressure on the new Presidnet and New AG, is the only way it happens
Dangerous question, dear LHP. I could put it down to the snack foods, but that would be dangerously too easy.
Of course…..evil its there, evil is here, evil is everywhere.
BUT, the opposite is true.
Loo Hoo is an Active advocate.
People here at the Lake are on top of All Kinds of Issues.
Evil will just have to hide under rocks while the folks here are watching!
I’m confused, naturally. Are you suggesting that Mr. Bush’s war crimes and torture are examples of
– parallel speciation;
– the resurgence of a species once thought relegated to niches in Africa, Asia and Latin America; or
– an expression of Intelligent Design?
*g*
Do you live in her district in CA? Run a primary against Nancy Pelosi and get impeachment back on the table. We can impeach Shrub after he leaves office
Yup.
The Bush-Hitler connection video, from Brasscheck TV…
Maybe there really IS some sort of verifiable continuity between the two eras.
Lets not forget, the conspiracy of greed needs no secret meeting rooms. It’s got Wall Street as a forum.
Oh, the feeling that evil got loose, was obviously my reaction to walking around in and breathing the cremated remains of 3,000 of my fellow humans. It’s only surprising that my reaction was not worse.
I got over it once the cloud dissipated.
I thought that Obama was the one that established a tighter ethics law in Illinois, one that has been used to prosecute both Democratic and Republican lawmakers. He was the one that got a law introduced requiring all interrogations to be videotaped. And anti-profiling laws placed on the books.
Yes, he worked across the aisle on a lot of these, making the argument that fighting against these laws might make the politician look bad. IOW he was pretty good at shaking the tree without antagonizing those that would offer support. Not everyone was so happy with him and his approach. He wasn’t an easy target.
John Edwards will be back.
After Barry the Ignorant has been shoved under the bridge where he belongs. And…no, I dont’ give a fuck if McSame does it. If it comes to that we’ll be able to see very clearly who in the ‘Democrat’ Party needs to go in order for it to become the agent of progressive change it must be.
ACLU and many other fine organizations have “hotlines” you can sign up for.
They don’t pester or deal with frivolities that tie up your machine and fill up your mailbox needlessly.
They DO provide timely notification of important pending legislation, contacts, petitions, & much useful related information.
Most, ACLU included, also provide simple details so you can know what you’re talking about if you, as we, have contacts who depend on you for such info., or want to contact congresscritters, write letters to editor et al.
We regard these alert services as an extremely useful tool in keeping abreast of all sorts of issues.
Cindy Sheehan is already in the field to attack Miss Nancy and get her Armani sheathed ass….
Outa there!
Oh, I’m glad to find this post, lhp.
I admit, the Altstoetter case was unfamiliar to me until, um Earl of Huntingdon (?) mentioned it in your post the other day. I took a quick look at some links, but I’ll be checking the searchable one you posted here.
It wasn’t the whole reason, but part of why I gave up trying to practice law was the feeling that it was becoming impossible to both make a living and stick to principle, that clients more and more expected lawyers to give them a legal fig leaf to do whatever (illegal, immoral) thing they wanted to.
I plan to print out your post and the linked case and read it later today. Will have to go out shortly, just checked in, and there was an unmissble lhp post!
Doritos are good kindling if you need to stat a fire.
looseheadprop April 13th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
105
In response to behindthefall @ 95
——-I don’t think there is a divine design to it.
LHP, I was wondering not so much about whether this is the result of a spiritual war, but whether some clever kids really decided to change the U.S. into a “Thousand Year Reich”, but doing it “right”, this time, backed up by a greater disparity in military might than the Third Reich had at their disposal. PNAC or something like it, in other words.
And here’s where I wonder what got shredded out of Cheney’s office, what burned in the fire, what was erased, — usw.
I remember Sheehan said she was going to primary Pelosi, but did she actually do it? I don’t remember.
Does anyone know whatever came of that?
In response to Loo Hoo. @ 19
And the Nuremberg trial were held by the victors in a world War. The US may not enjoy the stature it did pre- Shrub, but we are still a world power, do you honestly think that they will get prosecuted at he Hague w/o the consent of the next president?
well, it is the hope that Phillipe Sands’ “The Green Light” holds out to us.
it isn’t that a u.s. president would have to admit to being complicit in the “Tap On The Shoulder” scenario;
is it?
is sands just being kooky?
Don’t try to print out all the stuff I linked to unless you have several cases of paper, It’s an entire case file *g*
OMG, there was a Star Trek episode (original James T Kirk version) that had that as story line.
Some guy gets sent to be an anthropologist in a post industrial revolution society planet, violates the Prime Directive and decides that the best way to unify the people and end warfare on the planet is to scapegoat one ethnic group and set up a new Reich, only doing it right this time.
Of course it wound up being every bit as bad as the original model.
Lhp shining the light. Just when will the International community demand that the Bush administration be charged with war crimes? The majority of the American people continue to live in denial. Believing the U.S. is number one, and can do no harm.
Somehow the destruction of Iraq, one million dead Iraqi people as a result of sanctions, over one million dead as a direct result of the invasion and 4 million displaced does not touch what ever conscience that still exist in the U.S.
Impeach and charge them with war crimes!
I haven’t read the whole Sands article yet, just some exceprts, but I think he was arguing (as am I above) that Yoo has EXPOSURE to prosecution.
The actual prosecution would require some political will to actually do it.
Oh dear!! My snark was too subtle, I see. No; I was wondering how much planning it takes to corrupt the U.S. this thoroughly. Was there a play book? (That is, Design.) Or did they just follow their impulses and greed? (Accident.)
whatever…..
Did you say “political will”? You dreamer you!
Sorry…won’t happen. And “Barry The Ignorant” was simply pointing out that many people who have been disserved by politicians find solace in church and family…and only are inspired to vote when manipulated by politicians on hot-button issues. They create (often by putting initiatives on the ballot) conflicts on topics like gay-marriage, evolution, guns, immigration, etc. and exaggerate how these topics will affect (or are affecting) average peoples lives. They get people all fired up about these issues allowing them to conceal those very facts of life which have real “pocketbook” impacts on the Middle and Lower Classes. Switch the conversation over to guns, religion, and “elitism”.
Isn’t that precisely what Karl Rove did with evangelicals in 2004.
Financial problems will cause 100 times the breakup of families that gay-marriage will have. No one is going to take hunters guns away from them. And evolution will still exist and scientists of all faiths (those elitists! How dare they suggest they know more about how the natural word operates than my preacher!) will still use it whether we miseducate American students about it by teaching creationism in the public schools.
But Conservatives will continue to haul these out as distractions from the real issues this country faces. I’m surprised that Hillary is using them to attack Obama. And I’m surprised that her supporters are cheering her on for doing so because pandering to that instinct will possibly win her the election. How does that get people to really think in a “progressive manner”? It’s taking the easy way out. And if the country is governed in the same manner then there will be no real change.
Was that the Constitution that was “shredded”
man oh man I am late to this thread but it is just what I needed to read.
now we need someone with the courage to move this further, possibly a country might “render” someone like rumsfeld or cheney to a country that will try them for their crimes.
I think these people are stuck in the states for the rest of their lives, not that that is a bad thing, they will be living in the lap of treasure they have stolen from the middle east, the middle class of America and from our infrastructure
Part of me wants to tell you not to bother with trying to explain because this is no more than the usual drive by, but after reading your comment, I’m glad you did comment. Everytime you post something, I learn something new. thanks.
If they had robbed a corner gas station or were caught growing some marijuana, then you would see them do some time. Two Justice systems for sure..maybe more.
Sheehan is challenging Pelosi in the GENERAL election. She said she was NOT going to challenge Pelosi in the PRIMARY. I never really could understand why she decided not to do so, othger than the fact is many of her main supporters are Greens, and they would have had to vote in the Democratic Primary. But the California Democratic Party has an open-primary and no Green would have had to re-register to participate. They would have had to submit an entire “Democratic ballot” though, so that would have prevented participation in the Green “primaries” if these had been by ballot. But I think these were done by caucus. So I’m unsure what the rationale was except to keep her name out there longer.
But she could have done this (and perhaps better) by a) challenging Pelosi in the Dem. Primary, and b) in the General as a Green candidate if she had lost the Dem. Primary.
IANAL but would imagine that if members of the Green Party participated in the Democratic primary by voting, they would most likely be precluded from participating in caucus activity as Greens during the same election season/cycle
I think he was arguing (as am I above) that Yoo has EXPOSURE to prosecution.
The actual prosecution would require some political will to actually do it.
the tap on the shoulder
The Green Light
from democracy now!
The Green Light: Attorney Philippe Sands Follows the Bush Administration Torture Trail
the green light
ianal
Oh, I guess I exaggerated - I’m going through the Mazal Library of the Justice cases - printing parts.
I’ve read some of the memoirs of the US Nuremberg prosecutors - but never got to finish before they were due back (out of print, got them from library). Didn’t get to this part, apparently.
So, she’s actually going through with it? Kool
Yep, it was a dramatic variation on a theme the original Star Trek series used at least twice. The comedic version, A Piece of the Action, is one of that series’ best episodes, had as backdrop a world that used an interstellar traveler’s mislaid book on the Chicago mobs as its bible and cultural model.
In the one you’re referring to, Patterns of Force, a world adopts a Nazi model instead, explained to them by an earth historian who violates the Prime Directive in order to do so. It works for a short while, then descends into violence, subjection, torture and murder. The best laid plans….
OMG, I remember that one! Whatever happened to Star Trek doing that kind of moral lesson?
Not too subtle, I was. Your cite missed by *g* at the end.
I don’t really believe social institutions follow precise biological principles (though the similarities are close…cultural traits are often transmitted via different pathways than genes) but I’d say the agenda of the Conservatives was to break apart the “evolved” Constitutional system of checks and balances and substitute a system where a “free-for-all” competitive system with an centralized executive was instituted. Thus there would be competition between groups or businesses for influence with that Executive and the Party that maintained that Executive in power. In return largesse would be granted to those corporations and institutions that aided the maintenence of that system. Recall that Republicans were talking about a “Permanent Republican Majority” just a few years back. That’s essentially championing a one-party State.
I agree absolutely that he has EXPOSURE to prosecution. The mechanisms exist and precedential caselaw exists. But there has to be someone who actually wants to do it (someone with the power to do it)
There is also a world of difference between the president of Chile and the president of the last remaining superpower.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, just not very likely absent some major sea change
That’s the one with the Hotel with the revolving door that kept returning them back to the hotel lobby?
I always picture that scene when I hear the Eagles “Hotel California” You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave….
Maybe…but that would have been up to the Green Party. Not having been involved with the Greens since the late 1990’s I’m not up on their internal rules. But back in the day one could vote in a Democratic Primary and still participate in a Green Caucus if one was registered Green.
Short of “good faith” I’m not sure how they would ever know that one had voted in a Democratic Primary in any case. The only way to prevent it is to have a closed primary simultaneous to, and administered by those handing out the other ballots…or to hold an all day caucus on Primary election day.
When I was in HS we had this kid who was a little weird and anti-social. Potential for violent explosion –- he would tell kids that a spaceship was coming and was going to blast his enemies at school with a death ray.
he was a Sci-fi fan. My chemistry teacher decided to try to diffuse things and agreed to let the kid start a Star Trek Club and the teacher (Hi Mr.Baricielli –waiving) would be the moderator.
So, he asks me to come and bring some of my friends so it won’t be the two of them in an empty room during the club meetings. We had the meeting in a ground floor classroom where the baseball team would walk past on their way back from practice. I knew most of those guys from Football and rugby, so I stuck my head out the window and told them they had to come in for awhile.
We had a ball ID’ing scenes from old Star Trek episodes and answering trivia questions.
When the cheerleaders found out where all their boyfriends were going after practice, they stated showing up. Suddenly the kid knew EVERYBODY and had people to sit with at lunch.
No more talk of death rays. Mr.Baricelli was a very good techer (of life, the chemistry was sorta OK too)
I’m running an old laptop. It runs win2000 very well, but for the past week or so it takes moar than 5 minutes to load the front page here. So what I do is go to the Firefox history, go to the last comments page I’ve opened and move up the threads from there.
I never saw Star Trek until I got to college and saw the re-runs in syndication. It seems the military school I attended wasn’t to fond of allowing cadets to watch network prime time TV…
Nice. Dating myself completely - RR was my very first movie star “crush< ' at age 5 or 6 (about the time my family bought our first tv - the series was on, and Saturday a.m. movies alternated Roy and Gene and Hoppy). ah, nostalgia...</p>
thanks for your reply.
you are a treasure here at the lake.
but if not shrub, then at least Condi, for starters?
Aloha, LHP! I was fascinated with this…
That is scary!
That is a great story!
beautiful.
This article dated May 19, 2003 from Jim Lobe of AlterNet is a good reminder of where they get their inspiration.
If the link doesn’t work here is where it is found. http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/
yes! David!! (new fp editor, right?)—hear us - we want lhp’s post on this subject! More like this, please!
but here is the problem looseheadprop, I have been saying this from the very start;
the president has a lawyers opinion that what he wants to do is fine, he and all those he ordered simply fall back on that memo, it doesn’t matter if it carries the weight of law, it doesn’t matter if it carries the weight of precedence, all that matters is the president has someone who is recognized by the bar writing an opinion and he claims he can use that opinion regardless of anything contrary
yoo must be disbarred, there is nothing else that matters less then impeachment and we know impeachment will not happen yoo must be disbarred
yoo is under the impression there is imperial rule, if the emperor does it becomes by that very fact, legal
Nixon said it best;
“if the president does it, that means it is NOT illegal”
this is the principle they are applying, they believe it with all their hearts and soles, they must believe it because if they do not they are all going to prison
they do not care that the president derives his power from congress, congress gave the president his power, by not impeaching him they are saying he does indeed have this power
since they will not reign in the powers of the president, all of this carries the weight of precedence and I guarantee
let me say that again;
I guarantee
alito and Roberts and Scala will say the president is correct, and what yoo said is correct
I guarantee it, I also guarantee yoo has a wink and a nod that if this is brought before the scotus they will agree with his opinion, he could not, would not have written that pedestrian opinion unless he was told it would stand
I tell you, yoo is not a moron, he is highly educated and knows the law, he knows what makes a good and a bad brief, he would not have written this one if he didn’t have the wink and the nod, he would not, he could not
it doesn’t matter that his opinion has been rebuked, refutiated, pulled, whatever, all that matters is that he was given a wink and a nod that his opinion will hold if brought before the scotus
yoo must be disbarred, there is absolutely no other choice
How appropriate that ‘Judgment at Nuremberg’ is showing this week on TCM. Should be required viewing in every household in America.
The race to The Hague is on! Unleash the hounds…
You’re forgetting one thing, the requirement of “good faith.” This whole thing has been a sophomoric excercise in casuistry. Competent justices would not let them get away with their charade.
I am not forgetting that wigwam
I am cross posting this over at wheel’s place but those of you that think they won’t get away with it are missing the point;
alito and Roberts and Scala will say the president is correct, and what yoo said is correct, that is all that matters, popular belief, popular opinion, even the written law means absolutely nothing
the more they are exposed, they more brazen they will become, they can only move forward
it doesn’t matter that yoo’s opinion has been rebuked, refutiated, pulled, whatever, all that matters is that he was given a wink and a nod that his opinion will hold if brought before the scotus
yoo must be disbarred, there is absolutely no other choice
here’s what yoo wigwam and everyone else is missing;
we are playing by the rules and think the rules matter, they on the other hand have no rules
they have the ring
this is the end of the trilogy and they are now lord of the ring
what do I mean?
they can make, break, rewrite, and create from whole cloth any rule, any law, any presedent they want
imagine you and I are playing tennis and I not only have the official in my pocket but I don’t care what anyone thinks, nor does the official
well, I am going to hit the ball on two bounces, the official will first claim it was one bounce, when he is shown the video tape that I hit the ball on two bounces he will say, “but I already ruled and what I ruled goes”
then, the next time I hit the ball on two bounces the official will say;
“well, he did it before, there is no reason I am going to stop him this time around”
they are making it up as they go, they are making it up as they need it made up, they are brazen, they are depraved, they are sociopaths
the sociopathy they are demonstrating though is not that of someone born with the disorder, it is not chronic;
“it is because it is”
they aquired the power they have the power they are going to continue to use the power, it is what it is
they are now the lord of the ring
so, let me say this again, I have said it too many times but I must insist;
does anyone here
anyone at all
think they are going to give the ring to a black man or a women?
anyone?`
Not only that, the guy he shot apologized to him, I guess for getting his face in the way!
Been watching ‘All Godfather, all the time’ on A&E this weekend; Vito and Michael would be so proud of Darth.
From the White House to the Hague. Do not pass go. Do not collect illegally gained profits. How’s about we let jurists from Iraq decide an appropriate consequence. Think of the fortune saved on Secret Service activities.