Fifth in a series
In the 2003 memo released on Tuesday April 1, 2008, there is a discussion of whether the Constitutional guarantees in the Bill of Rights would protect anyone from torture at Gitmo.
John Yoo thinks that detainees subjected to torture are not suffering cruel and unusual punishment as prohibited by the 8th Amendment because they are not being "punished" [pdf] for a crime since they were never found guilty of anything. From page 10 of the memo:
A second constitutional provision which might be thought relevant to interrogations is the Eighth Amendment. The Eighth Amendment, however, applies solely to those persons upon whom criminal sanctions have been imposed.
--snip--
The Eighth Amendment thus has no application to those individuals who have not been punished as part of a criminal proceeding, irrespective of the fact that they have been detained by the government.
--snip--
The detention of enemy combatants can in no sense be deemed "punishment" for the purposes of the Eighth Amendment. Unlike imprisonment pursuant to criminal sanction, the detention of enemy combatants involves no sentence judicially imposed or legislatively required and those detained will be released at the end of the conflict.
Justice Scalia thinks that the 8th Amendment prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment cannot apply to pre-trial detention, because the defendant is not being "punished" because he has not yet been convicted of any crime and the same principle applies to other torture.
Scalia said that it was "extraordinary" to assume that the U.S. Constitution's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" also applied to "so-called" torture.
"To begin with the Constitution ... is referring to punishment for crime. And, for example, incarcerating someone indefinitely would certainly be cruel and unusual punishment for a crime," he said in an interview with the Law in Action program on BBC Radio 4.
Scalia said stronger measures could be taken when a witness refused to answer questions.
"I suppose it's the same thing about so-called torture. Is it really so easy to determine that smacking someone in the face to determine where he has hidden the bomb that is about to blow up Los Angeles is prohibited in the Constitution?" he asked.
"It would be absurd to say you couldn't do that. And once you acknowledge that, we're into a different game" Scalia said. "How close does the threat have to be? And how severe can the infliction of pain be?"
Two days after the Yoo memo was released, Pat Fitzgerald indicted a cop for beating an arrested man while that man was handcuffed to a wheelchair. The cop administered the beating with club on April 2nd and was indicted by a specially convened Grand Jury.
From the Indictment:
....defendant herein, an Officer of the Chicago Police Department, while acting under color of law, used a dangerous weapon to strike Victim A repeatedly, while Victim A was handcuffed and shackled in a wheelchair in Norwegian American Hospital, resulting in bodily injuries to Victim A, thereby willfully depriving Victim A of a right secured and protected by the Constitution and laws of the United States, that is, the right to be free from the use of unreasonable force by a person acting under color of law;...
From the press release: [pdf]
"Every citizen, regardless of being in police custody, has a Constitutional right to be free from the use of unreasonable force by law enforcement officers." Mr. Fitzgerald said.
So, which of these is not like the others?
You know, this whole Yoo memo thing has had me very down about being a fellow lawyer; but that indictment from Chicago served as a reminder that a "J.D." degree is just a tool, like a hammer. It can be used for a good purpose or a bad purpose, but is not inherently good or bad itself.
You can used that hammer to rehab a house in New Orleans Habitat for Humanity, or you can use it to crush a child's testicles to get his parent to answer during a Yoo-authorized interrogation.
Similarly, you can use that JD degree tool as a bludgeon to destroy the freedoms and protections that Framers described so eloquently in the Constitution, but which are inalienable rights bestowed on us by the Creator not by our government or by any piece of paper no matter how revered; or you can use that JD degree to rehab and rebuild the liberties, freedoms and justice that once were the hallmark of the American way of life.
Me, I want to use all my tools for rehabbing and rebuilding what has been broken or destroyed. So, when the time comes to rebuild our system of justice, call me, I have a hammer and I have a JD.
[Editor's note: The photo atop the post, by takomabibelot, features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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Yoo screwed us
LHP! (and Fitz!)
and just who is this socipath,that thinks children should have their testicles crushed,i say somebody who has taken LEAVE OF THEIR SENSES,and should not be ALLOWED to teach young people.
Loosehead!
if the Yoo Fitz, swear it.
Hey, LHP, serendipity! I felt Fitz needed a shout out before I’d read your article.
Maybe Justice Scalia and Mr Yoo need to be reminded of the Presumption of Innocence inherent and specifically stated in our legal system.
We do not operate under I believe it is the Napoleonic Legal Code.
Oh and YEAH LHP!
Teach young people? Should people who believe this be allowed to walk around freely? I’m thinking: rubber room. That’s ’cause I’m in a good mood.
Where oh where did my beloved America go…. where oh where can you be…
America used to stand for fairness, freedom, Justice and equality….
THE big question is it gone for good?
Buck Up LHP!
Help is on the way. The folks at Calitics are on the march. I’ve pitched in my bit as you will see by cliking this linky.
If you are near Berkeley Monday you can even visit publicly with the estimable Mr. Yoo and engage him in a civil dialogue.
Check it out.
It’s the hammer of JUSTICE!
Excellent, LHP. We can’t let the Scalias and Yoos define who we are, not as lawyers, not as Americans, not as humans.
As a non lawyer, can a knowledgable person please answer this. Are these interpetations of the constitution just that or do they become precidents or somehow binding? When Bush and his Cabal go are we left with permenent damage to the constitution and the rule of law. Is torture now part of our future or can more sane interpetations right these wrongs?
Something hopeful from Scott Horton blogging at Balkinization:
Cross-posted at EW.
Best one evah.
So, “I was only following legal orders” will be the new defense, huh?
Love that closing line, LHP. The country is indeed lucky to have you.
lhp,
not through your whole post yet — have to ponder one word at at time with brilliant thinking like yours ===
BUT what about impeachment for scalia???? any hope?/
Digging it
Didn’t we hear that one at Nuremberg?
holy friggin crap
how does a person like this live in a society?
that is the most brazenly depraved thing I have ever read
Can “Justice” Scalia be tried as a war criminal, too?
loosehead–thanks.
i know this has been a hard one for those of you that read the memo, i haven’t yet. can’t yet. i will.
i’m the one who fast forwards through the scary parts of the movie, then goes back and watches them.
i worked with hammers for a long time. for the phone company, i had to nail attachments, hard to juggle all those pieces and hit the nail some days.
sometimes you nail your thumb repeatedly, smash it inbetween metal and metal, hurts like hell, look like a fool, and feel like one. and what you were nailing is now 14 feet below you and you forgot to get another one before you climbed the pole or the ladder…….feel way foolish and frustrated, and wonder why you’re doin’ it.
other days, you strike it dead on the head of the nail and it shoots right into the wood. perfect. all falls together.
it’;s not as serious or complicated as your occupation in the law, but the same frustration.
============
”detainees subjected to torture are not suffering cruel and unusual punishment as prohibited by the 8th Amendment because they are not being ”punished” [pdf] for a crime since they were never found guilty of anything.”
this one is the last straw…..
if this logic is being used, then doesn’t the detainee have even more rights having not been found guilty of a crime?
my brain just blew up.
If one has no 8th amendment rights, one has no 5th amendment rights.
sorry OT for perris–whispering–
(hey perris–one of your heros (and mine) gave a great interview today, things i didn’t know, he talked about.
http://www.bobedwardsradio.com.....s-weekend/
April 12-13, 2008
HOUR ONE
Dissatisfied with the electric guitars sold in the 1930’s, guitarist and inventor Les Paul came up with what he called ”The Log.” It was a bridge, pickup and guitar neck attached to a piece of fence post – and it worked. Paul’s innovations made rock and roll possible and his playing got him recognized as one of the 20th century’s guitar masters. Bob visits with him at the New York club where he stills plays a weekly gig with the Les Paul Trio.
Bob takes a tour of the Gibson guitar factory in Memphis, Tennessee and learns more about the company’s most popular model — the Les Paul Standard. )
And the fifth amendment: The right to remain silent.
heroes, not heros, he’s not a sandwich.
Strap Yoo to a chair ,do what you can, THEN ask him if it’s torture, I’ll bet he has a different opinion.
If the detainee has not been convicted of any crime, and therefore cannot be subjected to punishment, cruel and unusual or not, then the detainee is innocent, and any application of physical force is assault and battery, and possibly attempted murder.
And anyway, torture is illegal under the laws and treaties of the United States of America. period.
both fitz quotes from the post uptop–
indictment-official paper–
”thereby willfully depriving Victim A of a right secured and protected by the Constitution and laws of the United States, that is, the right to be free from the use of unreasonable force by a person acting under color of law;…”
–
quote from press conference–
””Every citizen, regardless of being in police custody, has a Constitutional right to be free from the use of unreasonable force by law enforcement officers.” Mr. Fitzgerald said.”
—-
and it seems like fitz is still trying to draw lines in the sand. every time the tide wipes it out, he draws it again, closer and closer to the castle……..
I do believe even the Napoleonic Code supports the presumption of innocence.
First, I find it comforting to know that Scott Horton feels the same way I did when I said last night that the VP, Condi, et al, were involved in an illegal conspiracy. Second, isn’t it true that impeachment would preclude criminal prosecution. Don’t the felons have to be criminally prosecuted first or the impeachment somehow interferes with the ability of the accused to get a fair trial?
Make sure it’s a civil dialogue. You don’t want to do ANYTHING to cause him to receive any sympathy
I just got back from a Criminal Justice retreat in Manhattan. Sheldon Whitehouse was the keynote speaker. Bob McKay flew in from Seattle for the purpose of being a panel to proudly announce that he was fired by Bush for trying to do his job as US Attorney honestly. The room was chock full of ex prosecutors, criminal defense lawyers, law school professors and judges, from both political parties–all completely aghast at what has happened. It was like the last oasis of sanity in the world (well, other than the Lake *g*)
Has to. That is the law by which Louisiana is governed. I say this with hesitation since law and louisiana are hard to use in the same sentence together.
looseheadprop -
so glad to see you’ve worked it through - wanted to virtually comfort you the other day with reminders of Mora, Swift, Diaz, the Hamdam defenders, and remind you you are so damn good at it you have given many of us non lawyers an appreciation for the Law -
now -
thought of you yesterday when I saw Boalt Hall Dean Edley’s comments - wondering how you would interpret his remarks -
OLC opinions are non binding, but before Yoo they were considered “persuasive authority” Very persuasive. You could cite them with confidence that they would be given great weight
Funny you should mention that! Just last night I was watching CSpan and a discussion or speech that Scalia was just finishing up by taking some questions. The last answer that I saw was of him referring to the fact that he was the fifth vote finding that flag burning was a legal form of expression. Therefore, any law that makes flag burning illegal would be unconstitutional.
Scalia’s comment while appalling, doesn’t rise to judicial misconduct as I understand it to be (not that I know much about his area– a friend of mine is counsel to the NY commission on judicial conduct, I could ask him–but I doubt Nancy Pelosi would go for it.
Remember Impeachment is off the table.
Aww… Doesn’t your heart just bleed for him…
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/.....find-work/
No, impeachment won’t inhibit a prosecution. We don’t really have much hope for an impeachment anyway. What we will need is a special prosecutor, an independent and wholly honest person free to prosecute all of the criminals in this administration. I know some lawyers who will retire to join that staff. I have a fair amount of experience in investigating white collar crime, myself.
I cannot tell you how much that indictment cheered me up, coming as it did on the heels of the Yoo depravity.
PatFitz did more to alleviate my Yoo induced depression than a month of therapy would have (not that I’ve ever had therapy, but I’m speculating). I owe him a pint of good beer.
You know if we just execute people before trial or buried them alive, we could avoid the cost of a trial and accusations of cruel and unusual punishment altogether.
timetheif at 13 and lhp’s definitive answer at 37–thanks for asking that one, i have wondered that same thing.
cbl2–do you have the dean edley’s comment handy? if not, ok, i ’ll find it.
I interpret his remarks to mean that he has read the two Yoo opinions that have been released so far. [Sen Whitehouse intimated today that if/when we see the rest what’s left of our heads will finish exploding (my phrase not his).] that the Dean and most of the academic would think they are total crap in terms of scholarship and truly frightening in substance.
BUT, that the Dean doesn’t want Yoo to do even more damage by being the reason that tenure and academic freddom are destroyed.
lhp at 42–buy him one for all of us, and a titty smashing big irish hug.
THAT is my idea of JUSTICE!!!
I used to believe that it was Justice Thomas who was most deserving, and most in need, of being impeached from the bench (for lying before Congress concerning his crap with Anita Hill and his subsequent demonstration that he reads the Constitution to mean ANYTHING that hard right conservatives say is Constitutional, anything a thinking human being says is wrong) but I think it is is demonstrably clear that it is Scalia who REALLY needs to be impeached.
According to him, Bush CAN have anyone detained (American or not, on American soil or not) and beaten, raped, tortured, etc, so long as Bush says it is for “national security” and so long as the person held is not “under arrest”. It is also impossible to read the Constitution or the supporting Federalist Papers and conclude that torture is A-OK, and even sanctioned, by the Constitution. Scalia needs to be impeached, disbarred, and imprisoned right alongside of Yoo, Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and Condoleeza (and, arguably, Powell and Armitage). We imprisoned, for life, Nazi’s after WWII for the same thing that these clowns now think is just hunky dory.
On a related note, I argue that Pelosi is also complicit with torture by our government. She has stood by quietly while she KNOWS that Bush has ordered torture. That means she IS complicit. She is just as guilty in her quiet acceptance of torture and other massive crimes as is Bush and Cheney for ordering those crimes. By NOT impeaching, she is, de facto and objectively, giving her stamp of approval to those practices. You cannot be a part of a government that criminally orders and carries out torture and illegal abuse, quietly go along with it, and NOT be culpable. Prison camp guards under the Nazis didn’t have to actually conduct torture and abuse themselves to have been found guilty of war crimes. Same goes with any and all government and military personnel in our government with regards to torture and abuse. Same. Thing. Exactly.
Guilty guilty guilty! All of them are guilty!
and lhp–my question at the end of 23, i really did want to know, how can they claim one legal scenario without opening up the door for the other?
I was referring to Gonzo not being able to find a job, not titty smashing
lhp–at 47–
what is your idea of justice?
i missed it.
good, i was confused……..lol……..
rofl…….
Yoo says no, b/c these detainees are not citizens, so they are not protected by our Constitution. He also argues that they are not POWs b/c they don’t fight in the army of a foreign nationstate, so they are not entitled to the protections of the Geneva conventions.
Even though this post was originally intended to be the last in the series, my fellow front pagers have supported the idea of another post on the Nuremberg trials that will seem eerily familar to this circumstance. Other writers have referred to the case, but I don’t think anybody has walked through it yet.
Yesterday I found a link to what I THINK (I haven’t actually read the whole thing) is the entire case file. So give me a couple days to read and I’ll try to have it done early next week.
Gonzo not being hired by any law firms, they don’t want his name sullying their reputation.
Shunning, good old fashioned Amish shunning. he’s being shunned by the legal profession.
THAT is my idea of JUSTICE
LHP, if you have the Alstoetter case, can you share the link? I have only found excerpts.
i thought well, he’s got plenty in the bank working all those hours, not spendin’ any of his own money on food and such, but then i thought, well i hope gonzo’s wife wasn’t out rackin’ up the charge cards while he was at the office 24/7……
borrowing against his equity to pay his bills while he’s unemployed, worrying about possible foreclosures and not being able to pay his cobra and getting ill and having medical bills stack up and all.
nope, wouldn’ t want to wish that on anyone.
lhp at 53-”Yoo says no, b/c these detainees are not citizens, so they are not protected by our Constitution. He also argues that they are not POWs b/c they don’t fight in the army of a foreign nationstate, so they are not entitled to the protection sof the Geneva conventions.”
that’s the argument that that friend i spoke of the other day used…….huh…..wonder where that ’tack’ started…..he was retired military, navy, said all that almost verbatim…well used and practiced from his tone that he used, had all kinds of examples to back it up……hmmmmmm.
i find it interesting that it seems fitz is nipping at that argument in his indictment by his language use.
”the right to be free from the use of unreasonable force by a person acting under color of law;…”
what exactly does ’color of law’ mean? is that a common legal term/phrase?
Maybe not the entire case:
Alstoetter
http://www.mazal.org/NMT-HOME.htm
and lhp–thanks for staying and answering questions again
are you going to do a post on the conference? i would like to hear about it, i bet others would too.
i know you have a time constraint, too, just saying i would like it if you have time.
(rhetorical comment……and once again, meaty post was up only one hour, then another hit……. : )
administrator coming soon? )
It is a very common phrase. It means acting in the capaity of the government.
You know if we just execute people before trial or buried them alive, we could avoid the cost of a trial and accusations of cruel and unusual punishment altogether.
It’s so 3rd world, Hugh, I’m sure BushCo may have on occasion considered that very thing.
I attended a symposium @ Seattle University where John McKay (glad he was a panelist for yr. Criminal Justice Retreat, LHP) & retired judge Don Horowitz were talking about the USA firings & the lawyers protesting in Pakistan, among other things. McKay remarked that maybe he should find comfort in the fact that his firing took place in the United States, since in a 3rd world country the government might have quietly taken them all out & shot them.
Some people laughed. Maybe it was @ the very suggestion, since those type of things just can’t happen here.
I asked Senator Whitehouse if I could do a post on his keynote speech and he said yes. He promised to get me a copy of the text. Although I took notes, it would be more fair to use his actual text. As soon as that comes in, I will whip up the post.
It really was a great speech. One of my fellow attendees was a former OLC lawyer who is just flabbergasted at what has happened. BTW, Sen Whitehouse is really easy to talk to and approachable. If there hadn’t been such a crush of people waiting to speak to him, I would have hung out for hours just chewing the fat.
Amen. Let’s fill that toolbox. Many thanks for continuing your series on the Law According to John Yoo, junior member of the Torture Team.
The notion that “punishment” can only exist after conviction for a crime is hard to understand. That notion allows “punishment” to come into being only by virtue of a prior act, treating it like adultery, which cannot exist without a prior and continuing marriage. From the victim’s viewpoint, however, punishment is like sex: it doesn’t matter whether the one on top is married or not.
So why the distinction? Why cannot “post-conviction punishment” logically be a subset of “punishment”? Is it required logically to separate discrete acts of the state? Or is it a preferential leaning that absolves the state’s police authorities from the consequences of error because, well, what they do is important and they (like banks and presidents and telecom companies) shouldn’t be treated to too much oversight, lest they stop doing their work.
The treatment handed out to Abner Louima - his sodomy-by-broom-handle by renegades from New York’s finest - was certainly retribution imposed by the state’s police. It was brutal and illegal. Was it not also punishment imposed on someone thought to be a vicious criminal?
To me, that describes the dynamic of Bush’s Torture Team. Louima’s punishment, like that handed out to thousands by Bush and his top aides, flowed from suspicion and prejudice, not fact, investigation and judicial process. Those were cobbled together after the fact and were never intended to yield acquittals (per Mr. Haynes). Like much else in this administration, the effort was designed to cover its senior executives’ backsides, not to create a better method to protect Americans.
Mr. Bush’s “justice” is biblical retribution. It assumes and requires that he is as omniscient as his God. In reality, his “justice” is the vendetta of the Montagues and Capulets, not the considered conduct of the state. Except that by virtue of his authority, he has made it so.
Marie, I was thinking of you today while I was at the retreat. There was this really excellent Navy Jag officer on the first panel and I was chatting with him before the panel started, he was advocating for full discovery by defense counsel (which is evidently what they do in JAG) to avoid prosecutorial misconduct.
He made me feel like I was to the right of Ghengis Kahn he was so liberal on the issue of civil rights. Bless Him.
thanks, lhp at 61 ….guess i was reading too much into the fitz language…..although i still believe he is doing what i said at 30…
at least you have gonzo’s fate to ponder to cheer you up during this ugliness.
and your use of ’sullying’ fits with the amish shunning.
great word.
take care.
Not to put too fine a point on it, Bush’s “justice” isn’t justice, nor are his enhanced interrogation methods interrogation. They are both punishment intended to intimidate would be opponents, both foreign and domestic.
LHP, thank you for this post. I can’t bring myself to read the Yoo
memos.
My brain can’t process Yoo’s way of interpreting our laws.
I can’t figure out how we’ve made such leaps in technology, and still be
so barbarian.
What Yoo and Scalia have done is craft an artificially narrow defintion of punishment (like the artificially narrow definition of torture).
Absolutely, post conviction punishment is a subset of all punishment.
I probably screwed up that link in #62 (balancing a laptop on yr. knees in a hotel lobby can be fun). It’s, of course, to the Sinclair Lewis work It Can’t Happen Here.
http://www.litencyc.com/php/sw.....8;UID=4425
earl at 64-excellent-but earl, the cops that did it believe what yoo wrote, before it was ever made public and that is what scares me.
a way of thinking that was already being used and condoned amongst the group.
they aren’t the only ones. just the ones in a position to act on it.
and others are trying to make it legal.
lhp at 63–i’ll look forward to it!
sounds like you got a lot of things to feed on there, good!
you deserve them.
Sounds like the Retreat was excellent.
So glad you’re going to do a piece on Whitehouse’ keynote; looking forward to it.
A lot of lawyers I have spoken to, including today, have said that they printed it out, but couldn’t actually read it.
The purported Christian in Mr. Bush seems not to have read his bible, or much else, too closely. He seems to think “an eye for an eye” is biblical license to shower unlimited punishment on the infidel, those unfaithful to his political party or his country, disregarding all other laws from his God.
In fact, it was a law of proportional response of such merit that it remains a fundamental part of the law of war. Originally a way to limit the brutality of village vendettas, it came to define what response to aggression would be regarded as defensible and within the law.
Neither limitat appeals to Mr. Bush, who seems intent on leading us into a night where, as Ghandi and Tevye agree, we will all be blind and toothless.
I think it is great. I am hoping for more and more shunning, as well as some boos, back turning and loud and public beratings.
Yoo, Gonzo, Bush, Cheney and the rest of the scumbags.
-G
Great post LHP, as usual. And reading Horton’s response to Edely at UCB is a work of art. So much for Horton cutting off his blogging habit—it’s and addiction, we all know it.
As for poor old Abu, I’m surprised that he’s even out looking for a job. I thought that wingnut welfare would kick in immediately for him with no waiting period. Hmmmm. Nothing for him at Heritage? or at the Federalist Society? I’m disappointed in them. Not.
Perhaps the lack of offers will stimulate his memory. *g*
When a [supposedly] learned man, like Scalia advances the “ticking bomb” theory of torture we have gone a long way towards our own damnation. The chances of someone so ideologically motivated enough to commit genocide being willing to give up information that would defuse their plot is nil.
Torture only works on “24″ because the writers make it work. Someone ask John McCain how many of the “confessions” he (and other POWs) “signed” while in the Hanoi Hilton were “genuine”, heartfelt statements of contrition and sorrow for being “running-dog imperalist air pirates”. My bet? Zero. And those guys were being severly tortured, physically, and psychologically for years.
Scalia is a fool, and unfortunately a fool who can influence policy in this country for years to come.
IANAL, but after reading Scalia’s comments on the Jack Ryan Scenario (dirty terrorist wants to destroy a city most Americans despise, Hollywood Liberals and all that), i have to ask:
If a diabolical lawyer whose activities endanger the American republic were to plant a bomb under the Bill of Rights, could a patriotic interrogator crush his testicles with a hammer to get him to talk before the bomb goes off? I mean really, is that so different, Mr. Yoo? I’m talking to Yoo. We’re defending the American way of life. If it’s not torture, Yoo shouldn’t really mind when it’s his *ss in the chair.
After all, if he hasn’t been convicted, Justice Scalia told us that it isn’t cruel and unusual punishment.
Like his counterpart at DHS Chertoff, Scalia is a real (smart) piece of work. I don’t know what it is about these guys. Do they think they have something to prove, or are they just plain-vanilla ideological? Scalia surprises me the most, because what I read about him was that he was a (within the limited meaning of the term) a respectable conservative intellectual. He turns out to be the same kind of hack as Alan Greenspan is in my sphere of expertise.
I can’t for the life of me understand what makes a person who is at the very peak of the legal profession, a Justice of the Supreme Court, make Yoo-like arguments supporting torture. At that level he should be beyond intellectual games, and if he’s serious, he should be impeached.
Thank you LHP for persisting with this stuff, horrible as it is. I am beyond sickened.
Suggestion to everybody: think of ways to get this publicized! Seems to me that’s our strongest weapon at the moment. It really hasn’t hit the MSM so far (or at least went over like a lead balloon). We need to do whatever seems most effective to keep (or get it) in the public eye. Maybe (I hope) a lot of people who would normally react are still too shell-shocked to do much…
yes, earl at 75–like a child who is lectured by a parent, he takes the parts that serve his purpose and builds his foundation/justification around them, never having understood the point of the entire lecture/book.
so sad that he misses the depth and reward of understanding something fully.
and earl–love that word ’limitat’///
i am a wordiphile…..lol…
With some irony, I am listening now to Justice Scalia talking to a group of high school students, on CSPAN. (America & the Courts)
He opened his remarks by praising the U.S. Constitution, lamenting that it seemed not to be revered much anymore, and going on to praise the importance of the Constitution (”It is what continues to bind us together.”)
Maybe the Bush Crime Syndicate would not fare so well before the bar of the SCOTUS as some have feared. But of course he has a particular vision of the Constitution (he’s an “originalist.”)
His opening remarks might be worth calling attention to.
He apparently waxes eloquent on the Constitution frequently. Why don’t we hear more of our other leaders waxing eloquent on the Constitution? Where is the Barbara Jordan of this generation?
Bob in HI
“holy friggin crap
how does a person like this live in a society?
that is the most brazenly depraved thing I have ever read”
This inverts everything we know about the law. In the Yoo Universe those convicted of a crime are immune from cruel punishment, but those who are not can have their testicles crushed.
In the Yoo Universe we will all be compelled to wear electric-shock collar devices to assure our docile compliance with the State. It will be perfectly legal, of course, since we aren’t “technically” under arrest. There is nothing against it in the Constitution, any more than there is anything about behavioral control microchips or drugs.
The problem with this argument is that the Geneva Conventions DOES have sections that deals with the legal procedures that apply to “civilian fighters” in a war/occupation zone. They are not accorded the same protections and rights as POW’s but they are accorded the same rights and protections that relate to civilians in the War/Occupation Zone. That’s generally the legal code of the occupying power.
Thus the Constitution actually does extend, per treaty, to those non-State militants under the control of the occupying power (USA).
[edited by Mod] He’ll likely get the medal of freedom. Bush’s America.
[Mod Note; In the comments at FDL, please do not suggest acts of violence against others. Thank you.]
I would suppose this would include suggestions where Yoo might stick all 81 pages of his memo. *g*
There are SOOO many problems with his memos, They just are not the work of a lawyer. This guy had a fabulous education, and excellent credentials. He HAS TO KNOW these memos were full of poop
If the law were applied, John Yoo might well be tried for treason in which case what I said would not suggest an act of violence against an individual but rather the administration of a sentence according to the law of the land.
WAY late to this post. Y’all are so smart about the law. IANAL — did I get that right? So I am awed by all this knowledge. It’s why I come here. Even late. Thank you, LHP and others.
If lawyers are unwilling to read Yoo’s 88-pager, we may assume that laypeople won’t touch it. The press cherry-picks and buries it. The White House acts as though it’s all in a day’s work, and then forms a circle for the ritual blame game. Congress inflates itself in righteous indignation and then backs off without charges. Could I just say there’s something really, really wrong with this picture?? Oh. I just did. Never mind. Lonely here in EPU land . . . . . . . . .
Understandable, but times like this are exactly when we need you guys (civil liberties-loving lawyers) the most! And you’re very appreciated.
LHP, I just want you to know how much I appreciate this series you are doing on the Yoo memo (and other issues you have covered in the past). I always look back and read your posts if I can’t be around while you are here. I know there will be much more to come in the years to come about the criminal/sick behavior of this administration. I send in $ as I can to help keep you and others posting. I hope to meet you some day so I can shake your hand. It would be an honor.
Lil’ Prop is a lucky young lady!
Alice In Wonderland: first the punishment,
then the trial.John Yoo used the modified Alice In Wonderland defense to help the Bush administration get around the 8th Amendment.
- Tom
Scalia should be advised that same hammer could also be used to tack Thomas paine’s writting to the wall of the Supreme Cort instead of the 10 Commandments. And this same hammer can be used to tear down an aristocracy
arrogant ruling class that believe they only are superior to govern the rabble. The hammer can as well rebuild democracy from the ground up without the self proclaimed lords of man.
I’ve read the miserable 2003 memo, and am working on the 2002 memo. They are disgusting. That sounds like an aesthetic comment, but it I believe that aesthetics are a good measure of the quality of legal writing.
Scalia must have had a ‘Mafia’ enforcer in his lineage and the genes handed down. How do these mf’ers get to these positions. Yoo at the California is as baffling. The dean says he do anything wrong, just advise his client. What he advised is illegal regardless what that “brilliant jurist” says and he will be teaching his own interpretations of how to dis-regard the Constitution. I believe all this shows the fear and cowardice of these people. It certainly wasn’t/isn’t courageous. Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts are there for life. Pitiful.
Aw shucks Loo, you’re makin’ me blush
What a great pick up. Mind if I borrow that?