Ah, Jimmy Carter. The man who dared to call Israel what it is, an apartheid state. Hated by the AIPAC crowd and the right wing, who froth and sneer at the least mention of his name. But Jimmy, Jimmy is the best friend Israel ever had, just like the friend who tells you that drinking till you puke every night is ruining your life is a good friend, even if you don’t want to hear it, even if you spit in his eye and swear at him. And when he shows up again, a few weeks later and tries to make you stop, tries to make you see that you’re destroying yourself, alienating your wife and screwing over your kids, he’s still a lot better friend than the all of those who say "Here’s another bottle of hooch, Sam. And just between you and me, beating the wife and kids, it’s what they need."
Answer this question: who negotiated the only lasting peace between Israel and any of its enemies?
Answer: Jimmy Carter.
A true friend helps you when you need it. Tells you when your own behaviour is destroying you—and doesn’t give up on you, even when you won’t accept his help.
By those metrics, it’s Jimmy Carter and not George Bush, or Condi Rice, or the ultra pro-Likud neo-cons, who has been Israel’s best friend for almost 40 years now.
Because yes, Israel is an apartheid state. When half your population aren’t allowed to vote; aren’t allowed to travel freely either within or without the country; are denied basic health care; are not given fair trials; are not allowed to live in anything but ethnic enclaves and are subject to torture, starvation and deprivation—well, it’s hard to call it anything but Apartheid.
Now, assuming they had a moment of candor, pro-Likud types might say "who cares. Israel has the guns." And it’s certainly true that seizing Palestinian land and water and keeping them down, hard, has more or less worked for the Israelis, minus a few missiles that kill less than 1/10th the Israelis as Israeli conventional arms kill Palestinians. That sort of math looks like it’s really in favour of the Israelis. The Palestinians may kill a few Israelis, but the cold hard bottom line is that they’re no real threat to Israel and Hamas can say they don’t believe in Israel’s right to exist, but there’s not a damned thing they can do to make those words means anything.
Now.
Because the real math isn’t so good if you believe in a "Jewish" Israel. Barely more than half the population is Jewish, and they are being outbred by the Muslim population. Even worse, emigration to Israel isn’t what it was in the days when Jews were fleeing the Soviet Union; somehow Israel just doesn’t look all that attractive when people can live in places without constant religious-ethnic violence.
It won’t be long, 15 years at most, before Jews are outnumbered in Israel and the Occupied Territories. And the moment that day comes, anyone who believes in democracy even a little bit, will have to be awfully discomfited by the fact that it’s no longer a majority opressing a minority, but a religious minority opressing a religious majority.
People who are actually Israel’s friends, who actually want Israel to survive, remember what happened to South Africa; and they know that it can, and will, happen to Israel as well.
Which leads us to the two-state solution.
Who needs a Palestinian state more, Israeli Jews or occupied Palestinians?
Israeli Jews. Palestinians have now been under occupation for at least 40 years (some might count it longer). The vast vast majority have never known anything but Israeli rule. What’s another 20 years of misery? Or even 30 or 40, when at the end of it they wind up controlling all of Israel and the occupied territories?
Sound unlikely? Well, the whites in South Africa had more than enough military force to keep the blacks down too. Like Israel, they even had nukes. Somehow it didn’t do them much good in the end, did it?
People forget that originally it wasn’t Palestinians who wanted a two state solution. They wanted a one state solution. They wanted the right to vote in Israeli elections, since they were ruled by Israelis. And yes, they are ruled by Israelis still, the Palestinian government is a joke. When Israel can seize half the cabinet, the country is not independent. When Israelis determine which Palestinians can leave the country and when, Israel is the government.
The two-state solution is to the advantage of Israelis who want to maintain Israel as a Jewish state. They need to split off the Palestinians into their own state to stop the ticking population bomb.
The problem is that Israelis want to give Palestinians a state that doesn’t have sufficient water or most of the best land. Israeli colonization of the occupied territories, the settlements, invariably stand on the best land with the best access to water. When the media blamed Arafat for the failure of Clinton’s two-state initiative they sneeringly said that the Israelis had offered almost all the land the Palestinians wanted. What they didn’t say, is that that land they hadn’t offered, was the land with enough water to make Palestine viable. Arafat refused. If he had accepted his own people would probably have killed him.
Now let’s add in the usual caveats—the Palestinians have hardly been angels; in fact they have been thugs. They have often negotiated in bad faith (though certainly no more often and probably less often than the Israelis, in recent years). They do engage in terrorism, though what the difference to the victims between being killed by a suicide bomber or missile is compared to being killed by a tank, helicopter or bomb has always escaped me—except that tanks, helicopters and bombs kill far more people than the weapons of a terrorist or guerilla. They have certainly often been stupid and done things that weren’t in their best interests.
But the bottom line is that Israel is the party that can make or break negotiations. Israel is the party with the full army. Israel is the party with the money. Israel is the party that refuses to actually negotiate with the lawfully elected representative (which is Hamas) of the Palestinians.
And Israel needs a peace more than the Palestinians do. That seems counterintuitive, but the Palestinians are on a path that leads to victory and the Israelis are on a path that leads to loss. Yes, the Palestinians will suffer more, much more, than the Israelis getting there, but that’s not relevant to the end-state, except in that they may not be very gracious to the Israelis once they have won. Germans killed far more Russians than vice-versa and lost. America never lost a battle in Vietnam and killed at a 10:1 ratio. It didn’t matter.
To win any sort of conflict you have to ask what your victory condition is, then find a way to get there. And as the Vietnamese showed, sometimes you can lose every battle except the last one and still achieve victory. Israelis keep thinking that winning the battles means they’re winning the war. They aren’t, they’re losing.
A true friend tells you when you’re walking down the path to defeat. A true friend tells you when you’re acting despicably. And that’s why Jimmy Carter is Israel’s best friend in America—the only President to negotiate a lasting peace between Israel and one of its enemies and the only major figure to tell the Israelis that they’re walking a path to their own destruction.
Here’s hoping Israel wakes up and listens and acts. If it doesn’t, within the lifetime of many of us here today, there will be no Israel as it exists today; there will be no "Jewish" state.



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Agreed. Technology is working against Israel. Longer distance weapons, more accurate, will make Tel Aviv vulnerable. It won’t take much physical damage to ruin an economy with a close to American standard of living. It is very sad, unnecessary, and inevitable.
Truth is so powerful and so refreshing. Thank you
I haven’t read Carter’s latest book, but I loved the movie, Jimmy Carter man from Plains. Jimmy is great.
The U.S. spent 25 years getting schooled in Viet Nam, flunked big time.
Here’s a good article on last weeks debacle:
What happened in Iraq this week was a beautiful lesson in the weird laws of guerrilla warfare. Unfortunately, it was the Americans who got schooled. Even now, people at my office are saying, “We won, right? Sadr told his men to give up, right?”
Wrong. Sadr won big. Iran won even bigger. Maliki, Petraeus and Cheney lost.
For people raised on stories of conventional war, where both sides fight all-out until one side loses and gives up, what happened in Iraq this past week makes no sense at all. Sadr’s Mahdi Army was humiliating the Iraq Army on all fronts. In Basra, the Army’s grand offensive, code-named “The Charge of the Knights,” got turned into “The Total Humiliation of the Knights,” like something out of an old Monty Python skit.
Thousands of police who were supposed to be backing up the Iraqi Army either refused to fight or defected to Sadr’s Mahdi Army. In Basra, the Iraqi Army was stopped dead and clearly in danger of being crushed or forced to retreat from the city. In Baghdad, Sadr’s militia was rocketing the Green Zone non-stop—not a good look for the “Surge is working” PR drive—and driving the Iraqi Army clean out of the 2-million-man Shia slum, Sadr City. And in every poor Shia neighborhood in cities and towns all over Iraq, new branches of the Mahdi Army were forming up and attacking the government forces.
Then, after four days of uninterruptedly kicking Iraqi Army ass, Sadr graciously announces that he’s telling his men to end their “armed appearances” on the streets. Makes no sense, right? Nah, it makes a ton of sense, but you have to stop thinking of Gettysburg and Stalingrad and think long and slow, like a guerrilla……
http://exile.ru/articles/detai….._ID=18297&
If it doesn’t, within the lifetime of many of us here today, there will be no Israel as it exists today; there will be no “Jewish” state.
Well, I’m just wondering what your point is.
Is this good or bad?
Do we need Christian States, Jewish States, White States, Black States?
How does this help us Think Globally?
huh?? white states, black states?
I was trying to make a point about drawing lines in the sand, as it were.
I’m just tired of all of divisviness and wanting to think of One World. One Bread, One Body.
Maybe too idealistic for a Saturday afternoon.
Sorry.
Ian, thanks. This is one of the most intelligible articles on this subject I’ve read.
Do Israelis feel the pressure to get this solved? Just for their own self-preservation, maybe?
Israel is a state based on religious identity. If Israelis didn’t care about that, there would be a lot less resistance to letting Palestinians vote.
No need to apologize, I just didn’t understand where you were going. I blame it on the weather. Hot weather makes me stupid
Ian, Thank-you for stripping out the emotion and letting the facts be shown.. Great Post!
Incredible insight. Well done, Ian.
Here’s the excellent peace deal Carter brokered with North Korea against Bill Clinton’s wishes. Clinton maintained it, sort of. Dubya threw it out the window, of course.
http://findarticles.com/p/arti…..i_20089207
I get that just fine. i didn’t understand where demi was going but all has been cleared up now.
What about the younger generation? I know of two israeli couples here in Los angeles and their attitudes are remarkably different than what I hear from most american jews.
It’s too bad that religious identity seems to have the same result as Hot Weather.
Can we make a new rule that throws Ego out of religion?
Stupid question on my part since Ego is part of Identity.
:(
ian – i think the number of israeli settlers your chart gives does not include all those that live on “annexed” land around east jeruselem…. i’m pretty sure that when they are included, the number is greater than 400,000 – but i’ll go look to find a reference to make sure.
the reason the number of settlers is so important is that they form a constituency (not the only one) that has completely corrupted israeli politics. no israeli gov can call for 400,000 of it’s citizens to move – and still survive. at the very least, they would be voted out – more likely, leaders would be assassinated.
it’s just become an impossible situation for israelis to solve on their own.
totally O/T and I hope you don’t become angry with me but…
Feliz aniversário! Happy Birthday!
Happy, happy Birthday, Baby to Selise.
Ah, another Aries Firedog.
from last month in usa today:
make that 450,000.
Israel has been the subject, in excess of 200, UN resolutions for violations of the Charter.
thank you for the birthday wishes… but i have a confession – my birthday was last month. facebook required me to enter a birthday – they didn’t require i enter the correct one. but you have my thanks!
If there was one thing I wish I could do before either Jimmy Carter or I die is to meet him in person to thank him for all that he has done for us.
I find it a joke that he is vilified by the Republicans because they have no one of his stature as an ex-President who is recognized around the world as a good and decent man.
Wobblybits: Where in LA?
Me, Sylmar.
I would still like to know (anyone) how the idea of a two-state plays out with the various demographics (young, secular, orthodox, etc.)
Well, in that case, . . .
“Aaaaaaaa, very merry unbirthday, to you, to you . . .”
i always say long beach area because most folks have an idea where that is but actually we are in Palos Verdes
Right on, Ian!
I’ll forward this.
Bob in HI
well will you except belated birthday wishes instead?
ohhh how hoy is it in your area? I’m out under the patio umbrella typing, looking out at the ocean and it’s still over 90 here!! very abnormal for us
They killed one PM, probably with the help of his own security service. Yeah, Israel needs a friend to force a solution, but the power of the AIPAC/Religious right makes that nearly impossible, even though the US definitely has the theoretic leveage. “You’ll make a deal or we’ll crash your economy and remove our military support, and there’s no USSR to go to anymore. Any questions?”
Ah, marine influence.
It’s 100 degrees on my front porch.
And speaking of beach, on topic, the Isralis got the better land, I think.
Not fair. Again, idealistic me.
I think a few do, but not enough. Even those who understand the math don’t feel the urgency to act. 20 or 40 years seems like a long time, and the pain right now, as Selise points out, would be immense. Making a deal will require giving up a lot of land and the forced relocation of settlers. It will hurt.
Of course, being forced to give Palestinians full citizenship would hurt more, but it’ll hurt later…
i actually don’t think a two state solution is possible any more… at least not one that follows the green line – or even that is similar to what was being worked out at taba. the desire for that bit of land runs so deep, i don’t think i can really relate. maybe a way could be found to share (see, for example, ali abunimah’s “one country” – which btw, would be a great book for book salon).
Ian, another excellent post! I *heart* Jimmy! Best ex-Prez ever, from Habitat for Humanity to the Carter Center, he is a true class act…!
wow ian, you sure do tackle the heavy shite……good on ya….lol.
got your vest on? lololol.
now to read the post and comments…..
I think it’s great for Carter to meet with Hamas, and he does have a proven track record as a peace mediator. Apparently both Clinton and Obama, however, have said they disagree with Carter’s plan to have the meeting.
exactly.
just as israeli politicians are caught in a bind with no apparent way out other than to kick the can down the road, our political situation has been better only in that no on has been shot for making peace.
You may be right, but if a two-state solution is impossible, then a one-state solution is inevitable, imo. It’s only a matter of time.
That or massive ethnic cleansing.
One might note the irony.
there is a slow motion ethnic cleansing going on right now. and the thing that i find so scary is how deep the moral imperative of “redeeming the land” (by clearing it of arabs) runs in at least some sectors of israeli culture.
Ian … thank for raising this and for cheering on Carter who surely deserves our respect and support.
While I think Carter has the standing thanks to his honest approach to do a lot of good, I think its time for the US to give up the idea that this is for us to solve – we’ve been too dirtied by our own actions in Iraq and Afghanistan and by our continuing funding and arming of the worst in Israel.
Was just reading IPS today and saw this – No Ambulance, Call the Radio
moral imperative of “redeeming the land” (by clearing it of arabs)
Speaking of irony….
The unfettered support of the majority of U.S. leaders and MEDIA towards the most extreme right-wing faction of Israel (Likud Party) is the elephant in the room nobody ever wishes to address; this bias completely ignores the complexities of the situation on the ground in Israel/Palestine and the beliefs and values of the people who live there. Thank you for this detailed analysis, which has also been tailored to a narrative Americans are familiar with: the true friend.
I think the Wall and the unbridled expansion of settlements in the West Bank need to be reined in and stopped entirely…!
Well, in a sense there is, yes, but it doesn’t change the numbers just where they are. Gaza was an attempt to unilaterally change the numbers, but they just won’t leave it alone, so it makes it clear that even if they don’t have troops on the street, they might as well still be occupying it.
Incidentally, a movie about the Gaza breakout would make a great movie, though I doubt Hollywood agrees.
Hey, Siun! I posted parts of Baroud’s excellent article… Let me know what ya think! *g*
Hmmm… It’s not showing on the main page yet…
http://www.mainandcentral.org/…..itrep.html
ian – if you haven’t read “one country” you might at least give a ali abunimah a listen (for example when george kenney interviewed him at electric politics). ali has a prophetic vision that, i think, might appeal to you.
actually not just ian, i think ali would appeal to most readers here.
You are probably correct, but, told through the wide eyes of a young girl, it might be attractive.
I think standing doesn’t really matter. What matters is clout. The US is the only nation in the world with so much clout over the Israelis that if it ever found the domestic political gumption to ignore the domestic lobby, Israel would have virtually no choice but to do what it says. Neither the Israeli military nor its economy can function without US subsidies and aid. Israel spends so much time making sure US politicians are scared to cross it because the US has so much potential power of Israel.
Of course, odds of AIPAC and co losing that much clout are minimal. But they aren’t nonexistent. When AIPAC tackled George Bush Sr. they came out losers, a president who really cared might be able to hand them a very nasty setback.
Of course, most Presidents would rather not take on that fight, so yeah, it’s probably hopeless.
Which is why my prediction is 20 to 40 more years of misery, then a one-state solution. I doubt Palestinians will be as kind to Israeli jews as South Africa’s blacks have been to whites, but hopefully I’m wrong.
good point. i haven’t been to gaza, so was only speaking of what little i know of the settlers in the west bank. it may not apply to gaza at all.
Well, the settlers are out of Gaza, as far as I know. I just meant that the unilateral pullout was an attempt to just get rid of the responsibility for running a part of Palestine. Didn’t work out for them, because Gaza isn’t viable and they can’t stop meddling and the Palestinians aren’t willing to just sit there and take it.
Hollywood wouldn’t agree in the least. But canada’s got it’s own little cottage industry in Vancouver and Toronto. *grin* I’d expect something to show up under the radar in a few years. (If not sooner. I was rooting for those people in Gaza.)But i’m sure you know that too, Ian. ^^
i agree with you that we have no right to impose our “solution”
the problem i see is that we are doing that no matter what we do. that’s part of what makes it a quagmire.
If McCain or Hill wind up as Prez, it would be the same-o, however, I truly hope Obama will bring the necessary pressure to bear…
wow ian, most excellente, really, a fine piece of work, hmmm, where to start…..
ok, here–” It won’t be long, 15 years at most, before Jews are outnumbered in Israel and the Occupied Territories. And the moment that day comes, anyone who believes in democracy even a little bit, will have to be awfully discomfited by the fact that it’s no longer a majority opressing a minority, but a religious minority opressing a religious majority. ”
back in the 80’s my dad’s favorite comment was how many ethiopians were being ’imported’ for labor to israel…..not much mentioned about that one….
i don’t remember the numbers, wanted to post one, but it may be exagerrated so i won’t, but they were the #1 receiving country for ethiopians, for MANUAL labor……for years and years and years.
don’t get your hands dirty…..
An experiment that will end badly
Israel was always a bad idea. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and trying to assuage our guilt over the wrong done to the Jews by stealing land for them from the Arabs was always an idea that had littel chance of working. Maybe it would have worked if the Israelis had been a lot worse, and willing to commit the frank genocide needed to empty the land they coveted, or if they had been a lot better, and willing to run the risk of entering a multi-ethnic state in full equality with the Palestinians. But the Israelis are neither better or worse than human, and so the experiment looks headed off a cliff.
We have no business giving any further support to a Jewish state on stolen land. The Israelis need to either move or secularize the govt of a one-state solution, and we need to stop helping them avoid that choice.
Well done, Ian. I hit some of the same points but in less strategic detail here a while ago, for any who want another angle on this.
Years ago I dated an Irish Jew. She wanted to visit Israel and spent a summer on a Kibbutz.
She came back radicalized..against Israel. She said the obvious about the treatment of Palestinians. But what iced it was Israels treatment of Sepharidic Jews. She said they were treated like scum. My understanding is nothing has changed, they manage keeping the story suppressed. So add racist to the list for the Zionists.
one should note that Carter denies that he was sayin that Israel is an apartheid nation.
ok ian another thing to look into—-man i love this subject, so many things….thanks…..
shimon peres wrote a great book that on the surface seemed a ’diplomat’s’ book, however, in it he mentions water rights……and international pipelines for water for the middle east area….all over..beyond their area……
and most of it runs through, has to pass through, palestinian areas…….i gave the book to my dad to see if he saw what i saw, that was years ago, funny thing, the areas mapped out in the book are areas that have been now taken over by israel….
not a peep about this anywhere, i keep bringing it up all over the damn place, and not a peep.
good book to read. has maps.
was a memoir, but like most people, he let out a few things trying to prove a point.
well, if we’re going to do that, i think we have to offer citizenship to every israeli who wants to take it (and while we’re at it every iraqi as well).
Don’t fry this weekend!
(Chatsworth)
moondancer at 58– the opposite to me, former ’thang’, an israeli jew just sent me.he was brought up to hate palestinians, laughed about it, he came here when he was 14……this shite was in my inbox when i got back from out of town……an email about the cartoon controversy—here’s the kind of shite that the ’faithful’ are passing around……and a part of me feels dirty at passing it on, and a part of me feels dirty that i am passing on something from someone i thought was decent, but no longer do.
notice the name of the professor. a little bit biased, i think.
i hope everyone reads this, it tells what it’s all about. from the inside of the circle. this is what they send to their friends, the same as the repub xtian evil.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/wichman.asp
Always easier (for Hill and Obama) to acquiesce to the Right Wing Wurlitzer than to stand on principle. “Everybody” hates Carter for the same reason they hate Hillary – they just hate them – they don’t know why. The reason, of course is that they have been conditioned to hate them by the media. That Hillary and Obama won’t take a moment and explain that Carter is a proven peace broker and that he may have some success (ergo, he might as well have a crack at it), is evidence of their willingness to pander to the right – the cost of doing so is measured in the deaths of innocents.
and to answer an unasked question–i ask him questions about israel and such, but we don’t discuss it…..i just listen…….and learn.
from a powerful family there. and i wanna know what is what.
Ian and Selise … acknowledging US clout and role, I guess I keep praying that a coalition of other countries will step in and provide an alternative force.
thanks pach, i’ll look at your post later…..this is a subject i have been interested in since the 70’s…….and followed ever since, openly discussed in our family, one of the few.
our family was lucky, we had many jewish friends, most methodists don’t, but my dad always reminded us that there are two or more sides to every story, and i always wondered why he said that, he is so decisive…….
i learned.
and am still learning.
hope everyone reads my comments i made.
thanks ian, what you said was way better than i could have said it, and i will carry it and pass on….
and the carter center answers letters if you write to them, just sayin’……..
Whom, Siun? Not many states want anything to do with Likud! Do you blame them? 8-(
ian says-”Now let’s add in the usual caveats—the Palestinians have hardly been angels; in fact they have been thugs.”
when the vast majority of the population goes uneducated that’s what you get i guess……the educated few can’t rule them down.
but funny thing is, being a thug contradicts their religion, which may end up being the saving grace, the thing we are trying to tamp down is the thing that has kept them in a negotiating frame of mind, and educating themselves all along and an open frame of mind is what will solve it….irony again.
the off-spin of radicalism is a minority there, but are the same ones providing food and fuel, which will win?
we cut off all other means of survival there, who wins then?
stupid, stupid, stupid.
i don’t think the vast majority of the population of palestinians in the west bank have gone uneducated (although every year it is getting harder and advanced degrees are very difficult indeed).
selise at 70–what kind of education have they been getting? the kind you get here? (said with love)
education disrupted with bombs, occupation, lack of food, lack of shelter, lack of control over their own fate, daily and nationally, what kind of education?
what do they have to do to even go to school? what are their parents having to do to even get them there well fed and laundered?
selise, think about it.
Palestinians were traditionally the most educated people in the Middle East. Hamas runs schools and from what I understand they’re poor, badly equipped, but better than you’d think.
ok, the public seems to have scampered away……
i want a head count. and i mean it in the most kind way. this is one of the most important issues affecting our country and i am finding it hard to believe what i am thinking right now.
how many know any jewish people?
how many know any israelis?
how many know any palestinian people?
how many know any muslims?
how many have been to or know anyone who has been to israel?
how many have been to or know anyone who has been to palestine?
last chance hanging on a thread–how many have read one single book on the subject?
ian at 72–as i stated at 69, educating themselves through the means we tamp down, hamas. i just didn’t name it.
i should have expanded, but didn’t want comment to be too long, thought you could fill in the lines.
nice post Ian.
I don’t know if this story appears in any of Carter’s books, but it was told to me by someone who discussed this personally with Carter- that the peace negotiations had broken down, and Carter asked that before Begin and Sadat left, he would at least like them all to autograph a picture of the three of them together, so that he could show it to to his grandchildren, in time, because it had been such an historic meeting. And perhaps they would like to do the same.
Somehow, the discussion that followed turned the corner in the negotiations.
I think Carter has a unique gift (among ex-Presidents) in relating to people in a “simple” and honest way, and in good faith.
ian, they have one of the most ancient cultures of any in the world, and somehow find a means to continue that. that is something never mentioned. a culture through religion, which we as a country find repulsive, yet, that is how they do it, and it will never mesh because of that. our country will never accept that.
where is kiddo when you need him?
dmac- all of the above.
a couple of weeks does not an expert make, but the people i met were very well educated.
ian, i am saving this post as an excellent example of what is what….you couldn’t have written it better.
and for the total lack of input that was expressed.
i hope when you post it again, which i hope you do because it will still apply in a few more months, that more people know what the hell is going on.
the next time i hear ANYONE say shite about ai#ac or israel, i will refer them to this thread and ask why they said not a damn thing.
You left out Baha’is which have a large contingent in Israel, in fact Haifa houses most of the central institutions… The bomb blast in Shiraz, Iran today targeted a Baha’i gathering there…!
The culture, or the religion, or both?
And who is “we?”
selise and valley girl—good, i am so relieved……thank you. redeeming factors. indeed.
and selise–i was still pointing at ’how’ they were educated, through their families and religious teachers. culturally done, not through the state.
ctuttle–well, it’s kinda hard to cover it all when there aren’t many comments to spur it all on…..
i’ve been kinda commenting too much today….subjects that hit my brain center….half of what i wanted to. everybody has their thang, this is one of mine. i just want people to get the hell out of the car and see the landscape.
and who do you think did the bombing?
newton–their culture is built on their religion, it is intertwined, we, as a country, do not accept that…..nor do we understand it…..as a country….as a policy.
i’m trying to keep it simple. because it is, and it’s complicated by words.
they don’t have a state. but that doesn’t mean they don’t have institutions like schools, which, i think, were organized by village – not home schooling or religious schools. higher education is much more difficult when travel is restricted… but take a look at birzet university.
on what are you basing this?
It is so nice to see someone who understands the nature and concept of guerrilla warfare. When one has nothing to lose and everything to gain, what’s 50 years?
selise at 86–i so love you, i am not trying to argue, you are really missing my point….
the table wouldn’t copy so here-the link from the link you gave me….
http://www.birzeit.edu/about_bzu/p/2630
these numbers are before their money, belonging to them, was cut off by israel and us.
4,360 students as of 2007
135 faculty
174 staff
how many million palestinians are there? that’s a good ratio?
what are the numbers now in 2008? they can’t afford it now, what resources do they have right now? none. as of last year when assets were frozen that provided health care, electricity, etc.
that’s before gaza was closed off, before the raids in west bank.
~~~ModNote: Edited to condense the comment. Please use link instead of including the entire data set. Thanks.~~~
wow, thanks southern, i missed that in my palestinian/israeli passion……
hmmmm.
ummmmm i don’t think i said anything about murdering anyone, mods?
did my comment get lost? i don’t think i can rewrite it.
well selise, i wrote you a response
here’s the link
http://www.birzeit.edu/about_bzu/p/2630
the numbers are discouraging.
Hard refresh to reveal comments. Thanks.
sorry mods, i thought i deleted it all cuz it didn’t paste in columns, really.
must have been some at the bottom of the box left over. took me a while to delete them all.
sorry. : )
as i said, higher education has gotten much more difficult as travel has become more restricted (and financial hardship has grown). but many families that can, send their kids out of the country for their university education.
Great post Ian. Thanks for saying what seems taboo to say. Agree with all, Isreal and Jimmy Carter.
Mr. Welsh, thank you again ,so well spoken.
Yes, Ian, much appreciation.
Yours is always a voice of clear reason and broad perspective, aided by your informed far-sightedness and your ready willingness to join the ‘fray’ as a most humane being.
Thank you.
Yes, to all of your questions. And your point is?
Wow, I got my head bitten off when I posted this on Paul’s thread…
Carter and Gore team up to halt Hill’s campaign…
http://news.scotsman.com/lates…..3976738.jp
If you are looking for a first hand experience, I will say that I went to Israel decades ago, when I was much younger, and all I knew beforehand was what I saw in the movie “Exodus”. Actually spending time there and seeing how badly Palestinians were treated was a real eye-opener.
Noted and appreciated. Thanx ;~D
Excellent article. I am surprised, though, that the Likud sympathizers haven’t been alerted, and haven’t filled this comment thread with their objections and their accusations of anti-Semitism.
karin at 99–just takin a survey
selise–you’ve stretched this waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond my original point and i’ve followed along, willingly. which had to do with basic education and services, and you didn’t state (at least to me) that higher education has become more difficult, i did. what is going on? what is your agenda with this?
i love you, but i think you are confusing me with someone else here.
i am way beyond clear when it comes to this subject. since the age of 12.
but i’m always lookin’ to learn.
i’m calling it a night.
if you follow all of my comments and my links, you know where the hell i stand…
where i have stood even when it wasn’t comfortable or fashionable to stand on the spot.
for years.
if that ain’t enough, well, i don’t know what else i can say.
i think people read too much news and not enough facts.
water and resources, that’s what it’s about.
like i used to tell kiddo, palestinians dont have any, resources thatis, that’s why they have no bargaining power, except for their geography. they’re sitting on land that israel needs for pipelines, and they’ve been taking it foot by foot by foot…….
same old story. for years. and it is totally not in the news.
read up on it.
meanwhile, a people and their culture are dying.
so, argue the bullshit all you want, that’s what people are argueing, the bullshit.
meanwhile, millions in crops is rotting because they can’t get it to market.
millions have fallen into a third world existence. overnight.
what the hell are we debating about?
It seems that most progressive blogs avoid talking about Palestine and Israel, so it is good to see these comments. There is an interesting interview with historian Tony Judt on youtube.
There is Sabbah’s Blog which gives current information about the Palestinian situation.
Way late to the thread, but…
Thank you, Ian. Brilliant post, truly.
And thank you to all the ‘pups who commented. I learned a lot.
Survey answers for dmac:
Know and have worked with a fair number of Jewish people. No Israelis that I know of.
Know/love an Egyptian Muslim and his family. Have visited him in Egypt. Did several tourist-y things, but with ordinary Egyptians, not as part of a tour.
Have 2 friends who did the Kibbutz thing (together) in the late ’70s. One is a very close friend. Both are Jewish, though not observant, afaik. Actually, my close friend is Jewish from her dad’s side of the family, which for some might have some technical/religious significance, but she identifies herself as Jewish so that’s what matters to me.
Does “Nasser: the Last Arab” by Said K Aburish count as a book dealing with Israel/Palestine issues? It’s a biography of Nasser, obviously, but Nasser had to deal with the I/P conflict in significant ways, and the author is Palestinian.
The only Palestinian I’ve met, that I can remember, is a teller at my bank, and I suspect I really put my foot in it when we spoke over a transaction. I asked her where she was from, because Arab names vary by region and because I like to know where different accents come from (I ask people with commonwealth accents all the time, regardless of complexion). She said “I’m Palestinian, but I’ve lived here for 25 years.” I muffed the opportunity to say “you have a lovely name” or even “salaam”. It didn’t occur to me that my curiosity might be interpreted as hostile or xenophobic or racist. And she didn’t react as if she interpreted my question that way.
Heh, way more info than necessary, but I’m in deep, deep, double-secret EPU land, so what the hey. And I think I’ve sorted out that curiosity about where people are from or got their accents or what-not. I really think it’s a desire to connect with and learn about/from people very different from myself. It’s not eek, you’re different, but cool! help me understand another part of the world or another point of view better.
Hmmm. Better sign off and toddle off to sleep-land before I go completely incoherent.
FunnyDiva
i was disagreeing with your characterization of palestinians in your comment #69:
and in my very first comment in response (#70):
i included the caveat on advanced degrees.
……..
dmac – i objected, and still object, to the implied characterization of palestinians as uneducated. that’s just completely contrary to my (granted: limited and out of date – it was 2002) experience.
Reading this post in the daylight/Sunday—and I am delighted Ian has knocked another one out of the park. Atlantic magazine ran an article this month on the growing demographic realization within Israel that the state’s survival depends on finding an inclusive solution. (”Is Israel Finished?” by Jeffrey Goldberg)
But as to President Carter, I have to say he invokes disdain by many many people and to this day is repudiated by many Democrats and Independents, not merely Republicans who regard him as the Custer of Democrats vanquished by their Reagan warriors.
I am not in the camp who believe Carter was an awful President while in office. And I am firmly in the camp that says he is clear-eyed and forthright in his assessment of Israel and of Palestine. What I am afraid of is the constant indulgent, reinforcement America gives Israel to the exclusion of any serious regard for the Palestinians. It seems to me the Palestinians (who are viewed by some as a collection of stateless refugees who cannot possibly claim to have a culture or homeland–because they are refugess from somewhere else) are the mirror-image of Israel. This is a conclusion many Americans reach and the proponents of an Arab-free Israel spend an enormous amount of time and influence trying to dispel.
I have Jewish friends. I have Muslim friends. I have no desire to see any of them hurt and every desire to see them retain their dignity. That is why having Jimmy Carter around is extremely important.
Belatedly I respond to your informal survey:
“Yes” to all except knowing someone who visited
Palestine. I know folks who visited Lebanon during the time after Jumblat.
Link to the article Dude mentions.
I agree a one state solution is the only thing that will work, but the present generation on either side can’t manage it. Perhaps after they die different possibilities will emerge.
I don’t see the US as being able to force the Israelis to do anything. They don’t want to cross us and they cherish our support, but were we to insist on something they really didn’t want, I think they’d tell us to get lost.
As for what the US should do, I’s suggest a crash program for desalinating water and non-petroleum energy sources. We might even try to build something along the Arcosanti model to relieve Palestinian squalor. It is time the US attempted to make lives better and easier rather than meaner. It is time our foreign aid meant something other than guns.
Overall agree, but I’m not sure the US can’t tell the Israelis what to do. I’m not kidding when I say their economy is dependent – they’d go into a huge awful slump if the US pulled support, and their armed forces simply cannot operate without supplies from the US.
We who fought stupidly in Vietnam should be able to teach that lesson with conviction.
It seems to me Israelis have several significant problems:
Democrats are less dependent upon campaign contributions from American Jews and are less likely to be as weening as they used to be and after this recent Neocon experience there’s less likelihood Repubs will be in power and able to help the Likudites for a while.
Psychologically Israeli Jews are reliving the Nazi-Jew disaster of Germany, but in the role of the oppressor. This has to eventually become uncomfortable.
Time is in favor of the Palestinians as Ian wrote. However ideological the Israelis might be they will have to see that creeping up on them.
It’s quite likely they’re under the same psychological oppression we experienced during the “Cold War” where they feel they have to spend every penny to fight the enemy. Once they break through and realize they’re being manipulated by their own Military-Industrial-Likud complex, then they might begin to re-evaluate the threat and the answer to their problems.
Here in America we’ve not only broken through Vietnam and the Cold War, but now the Neocon-Bushies are discredited (though not out of office yet). We haven’t quite broken the MIC yet, but that’s bound to happen too. We see all this clearly and any American Jews have to wince when they see our experience and then observe Israel repeating those mistakes.
The cognitive dissonance should be resolved in favor of peace and prosperity.
The dream of a Jewish state has been lived for some time now. It hasn’t gone smoothly. But, I don’t know that Jews, as a people, have a lot of experience at governing. They’ve migrated here and there and lived under other governments. Maybe they just need more help and experience at governing in order to get it right.
I suggest a beginning by designating and making Jerusalem an international city, governed by the U.N. or some other tri-religious group running it.
Perhaps this kind of example would help Israeli Jews learn, so that in time they’ll get past their other problems (mentioned above) and able to eventually live in peace with anyone.
Truth first!
“Palestine Peace: Not Apartheid” is a must read.
Jimmy is the best friend Israel has ever had. Although Norman Finklestein, Amy Goodman, Bishop Tutu, Mordechai Vanunu, Art and Peggy Gish, Congressman Moran, Senator Hagel, Former Congressman Findlay, and many more continue to speak truth to power in regard to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
Former President Carter was shining the spotlight on this issue on “This Wekk” this morning. Talking about one of the most critical issues in the middle east that many (even those liberal is the blogosphere) avoid at all cost.
Watch and listen to Jimmy this morning
http://abcnews.go.com/politics
Ian today you went where many so called liberal bloggers will not go. Good for you.
So amazing that so many folks will stand up for the Tibetans and Tibet (somehow so groovy) Hello Congresswoman Pelosi. Yet many of these same individuals either refuse to look at the abusive treatment of the Palestinians, the loss of Palestinian land due to the expansion of illegal settlements and control over water, electric etc.
I have always thought that the word “right” needs to be taken out of what so many want Hamas to recognize. They want Hamas to agree to this statement. That “Israel has the right to exist”.
Have read that this word “right” is a real sticking point for Hamas. And that they have no problem with saying that Israel exists according to the Internationally 67 borders. But the “right” based on some book called the Bible written by a bunch of Jewish guys is a bit absurd
Of course many Democrats hold disdain for Carter…the Democratic party is held in check on the I/P conflict by the Lobby. This has been going on for years.
Just check at Aipac’s website to see the latest falsehoods being claimed about Iran. Or who the I-Lobby will be targeting next
http://www.aipac.org/
Report: Photos Reveal Secret Iranian Missile Site
Iran is secretly developing long-range missiles.
New satellite photographs have uncovered the secret site where Iran is suspected of developing long-range ballistic missiles capable of reaching targets as far away as Europe, Britain’s Times reported. The photographs show that Iran is disguising its missile development as a space program, much like North Korea did over the last decade. The revelation comes weeks after U.N. nuclear experts obtained documents detailing a years-long, clandestine effort by Iran to use civilian experts as cover for nuclear warhead research. More…
The last President to demand that the Dimona nuclear facility be inspected was President Kennedy.
Not one President since then has demanded that Israel declare their massive amounts of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and open up to inspections.
Ian looks like FDL is stepping out a bit on this topic, a pleasant surprise.
Maybe just maybesomeone will even write about the upcoming Aipac espionage trial. Justin Raimando at antiwar.com http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11856
one of the only progressive bloggers going where few are brave enough to go.