[Editor's note: This is the second of a six-part series by Paul Lukasiak on what polling reveals about how Americans will vote in the coming election. Part I gave an overview explaining that "Not just sexism but also racism were major factors in how the 2008 election would play out." -- DN]
Part II: Racism and Sexism: What Happens When the Percentage of Black Voters Increases
There are obvious patterns that emerge when one compares the gender gap to the percentage of Black voters among the electorate, as shown on Chart Two. It is important to keep in mind that the data is weighed to reflect the impact of changes on overall vote totals. (see Note 2).
PLUM LINE (NOTCHED)– The 0% axis. As trend lines go toward the PLUM line, gaps decrease, as trend lines go toward the PLUM line, gaps increase. (In other words, a line that goes down above the PLUM line shows a shrinking gap, a line going down below the PLUM line shows a growing gap.)
DATA POINTS are triangles or other shapes that represent specific data. LINES (except for most instances with the BLACK line) represent “trends” in the data for a particular data series that is the same color as the data points. (See Note 1)
BLACK DATA POINTS/LINE — Black voter % data (and trend line): The actual percentage of Black voters, and the other data is based on these Black voter percentages (all data points are on the line) The BLACK % trend line only varies when the data is sorted differently. In general the closer the data points are to their corresponding line, the more likely that the trend line describes something significant in relation to the variable that was used to sort the data.
BLUE DATA POINTS/LINE – Male gap data and trend: This data/line represents the difference in the male vote when Clinton or Obama is matched against McCain. The BLUE line starts above the (PLUM colored) 0% axis line, meaning that a higher percentage of men preferred Obama to Clinton in states with few Black voters.
Chart Two shows that as the percentage of Black voters increased, the difference in male support for Obama and Clinton decreased, until there was almost no difference.
RED DATA POINTS/LINES – Female gap trend. The RED line is below the (PLUM colored) 0% axis line, meaning that fewer women supported Obama than supported Clinton in states with few Black voters.
Chart Two shows a very slight increase (and therefore probably insignificant) in women’s preference for Clinton as the percentage of Black voters increases (the RED line is under the 0% PLUM line, and moves only slightly downward, and away from the PLUM line.)
PINK DATA POINTS/LINE – Gender gap shift trend line: The pink data points and trend line reflect overall differences and changes in male and female preferences as the percentage of Black voters increases. (Technically, it’s a gender gaps shift, rather than compare gender vote percentages, it considers the gender gaps for each candidate.) The farther from the PLUM line the pink line is, the greater the difference in male and female preferences.
The downward slope of the Pink line means than the difference is how men and women would vote decreases substantially as Black voter percentages increases.
ORANGE DATA POINTS/ LINE – White voter shift trend line: The ORANGE data points and trend line represent the impact, and changes in the impact, of the preference of White voters as the percentage of African American voters increases.
• The ORANGE line goes down as the percentage of Black voters go up, indicating that the more Black voters there are, the less inclined White voters are to vote for Obama as opposed to Clinton.
• The line shows that where there are few Black voters, Obama gets more White support than Clinton (the ORANGE line starts above the PLUM line.).
• Where there are a large percentage of Black voters, there is less White support for Obama than for Clinton.
• Although the chart does show it, White support for both Obama and Clinton declines as the percentage of Black voters increases, but the decline in White support for Obama is much more pronounced than the decline for Clinton, which is why the White shift line itself goes downward.
(When looking at the ORANGE line, it is crucial to keep in mind that it reflects “weighed” votes, indicating how changes in the White vote affects overall margins. In other words, to get a 20 point White vote shift in a state with 95% while voters, only about 21% of White voters have to vote differently when Obama, rather than Clinton is matched against McCain. To get that same 20 point White shift in a state that has 75% White voters, 27% of White voters have to vote differently – but the chart reflects only the impact of the change in White voter preference (the 20 point difference) rather than change in the preference itself. The unweighed White shift trend line shows a not-insignificantly sharper decline than what is shown here, indicating a larger difference in White voter behavior. See note 1.)
Next: What Happens When the Gender Gap Shrinks
[Cross-posted at Corrente.]
Related posts:
- Election 2009: The (Quasi) National Landscape
- Can white liberals keep their eye on the prize when racism comes a knockin?
- Conservative Blogger Rick Moran Calls on the Right to Condemn “Crazies”, Sees Racism in Attacks on Obama
- Health Care Reform: At the Intersection of Pro and Con, a Life
- Election 2009: Election Night Thread #1; Polls Now Closed in VA









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geeze
DEZ Charts shit I hate charts!
gawlee yer fast! Explanation EPU’d downstairs, naturally.
I hate footnotes!
Is there an executive summary?
Aren’t the for stepping on the subject??? /s
My thoughts exactumondo!!
Like I used to step on a key of Michoacan.
Before it gets too silly, I do appreciate this topic and the info therein.
Could we have the conclusions in the short form? I thought I was reasonably intelligent but this is like trying to set my VCR – need to read again.
will this be on the test?
paul, i’m having trouble following along. could you give a link to your raw dataset? thanks.
Maybe Father Sarducci has a 2 minute stats class.
someone was given a case of coloured ink cartridges for xmas.
don’t be jealous.
I bet you can’t any of that anymore.
Executive summary really would be helpful … Who can translate this info in to plain English??
my ‘puter seems more askeered of the stats than I am. Every time I scroll to look at the charts & explanations, the screen very helpfully starts jumping around at random. hmmm.
plus we’ve got lightening in the area. ahhhh. *click*
Nah, I like to see things in real black and white these days.
I have to admit that I too am confused.
And I am not that bad with stats.
I suspect some of the confusion results from trying to reconcile preconceptions with the raw data.
Some also comes from a model which only contains 4 demographic factors where there are several other influencial factors.
Is white defined as ‘non-black’?
What about relative income and education levels across these states?
OT
please forgive
heads up, CSPAN 1 now
Society of Environmental Journalists: Climate, Energy & the Election
1,809 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Paul Lukasiak and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Well of course…ah, it’s all so transparent …er how could it be otherwise… WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MEAN AT THIS POINT IN TIME???!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND GIMMIE SOME MEAT WITH THOSE POTATOES!!
Per Glenzilla:
Good on you, Selise (for the second time today).
well we all know selise is awesome, so it’s a real treat to see her get the credit she deserves :)
This proves issues are no longer relevant. Only race and gender matter. Or these charts prove the Higgs Boson exists. Or they prove someone is not black enough so get them to CNN immediately.
My problem is NOT with the charts yet. I can not get past the words. This paragraph is puzzling.
At first I thought we were talking about the color plum, but I now suspect it is plumb line as in what one uses to hang wall paper. Then the next sentence must be wrong because both parts say “as trend lines do toward” and in one case the gaps decrease and then gaps increase. Maybe it means as trend lines above the plumb line go toward the plumb line, gaps decrease. And the reverse for trend lines below. ??
This is as far as I can get in trying to literally read the words.
If anyone can read a chart it should be you!
Bravo and seconded!
So…is it saying that white voters who live in high-density black communities are more racist than white voters who live in low-density black communities…?
Howdy, Raven;
‘…to see things in real black and white …’
Sort of an ‘integrated’ overview?
Generally speaking, predictive colorations occassionally obscure relevant data, making it difficult (if not impossible) to chart the actual progress of presumptive ‘insight’.
That’s clear, isn’t it?
Or, not to put too fine an edge on it, are we to assume that racism and sexism are still popular mind-sets in the U.S. of A.?
Sufficiently, to ‘explain’ why McCain might be coronated, come January 2009?
Who could imagine?
If that’s what you want it to say!
Who could imagine?
That they would freak out in Minnesota!
But I’m telling you
It can’t happen here
Oh darling, it’s important that you believe me
(Bop bop bop bop)
That it can’t happen here
Who could imagine that they would freak out somewhere
in Kansas . . .
(Kansas . . . Kansas . . . Kansas . . . Kansas . . . )
I’m with Raven in waiting for the executive summary
(((Selise))) congrats on the mention, you deserve it *g*
Honestly, I don’t think the country will choose a pro-war politician whose party doesn’t even like him, over either Dem candidate no matter what race or gender.
Yes, Selise, that is great!
Until there is an attack this summer, then the chicken shit american public will run like chattanooga houndogs to McCain.
Well, that’s kind of my take on first reading, but I’m with everyone else: I think we need an executive summary!
That looks like a consensus.. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY NEEDED
Where is the CFO when ya need him…
I call your name but you’re not there
Was I to blame for being unfair
Oh I can’t sleep at night
Since you’ve been gone
I never weep at night
I can’t go on
You got any charts or graphs, any research data to back up that there truism? Footnotes, citations (Yoo know), the backing of any major thinkle tank?
And the best part is that the twenty-eight percenters can all say, ‘tole ya so, nah, nah, nah…
True.
I’m a Qual guy.
714? What is a Qual?
Without a doubt! ;~D
Is that anything like A Quail???
*twiddling thumbs*
I sure hope there is no essay tesst on this. Multiple choice I can bull my way through
Qualitative research. My dissertation was a study of the lives of people who quit school and went back for a GED. I was interested in the “meaning” of their experience in their terms not some “econometric” study.
That is really cool!!
It was a privilege to work with the folks I did. They enjoyed it because I am a GED grad myself.
Well how much did the GED help with their quality of life?? I would think it would have help them as they could use the milestone to go further in their education as I know you did. Great subject to study…. Education is the future of our society. I just wish our so called leader would take a page out of what the Dutch have done in their country!
That’s really cool. There are a lot of good people who got it together in the military and pursued an education. Of course, the service kept more than one of us off of the primrose path, too. Part of the reason I feel that a couple of years of some kind of mandatory national service wouldn’t be an altogether bad thing. Maybe it would help bridge the divide we have in this Nation now, which seems to have began about the time the SSS ended…
As a fellow GED’er m’self, I’m honored to be in your presence.
Not surprisingly it was mixed. Some of the folks, women mostly, went back to have an impact on their kids. Others felt something was missing in their lives and they sought to complete it. The younger ones did hope to use it to go on. What I really found was that it is very complex and generalizing does not do the subject, or the people, justice. A GED or high school diploma is “necessary but not sufficient” for advancement for most folks. The bottom line is that their has to be a “second chance” for people. Another conclusion
was that quitting school is a perfectly sound thing for many people.
Cool!
Walyon Jennings, Bill Cosby, Dave from Wendy’s. . .lots o’ folks.
‘evening, all-
I suspect there is a summary of conclusions, as this is a 6-part series, not a stand-alone piece. When Part 1 went up yesterday, there was a link to the entire post, cross-posted somewhere else. I went back and looked through the link to Part 1, and the link to the other site is gone, so I couldn’t check.My guess is the summary conclusions are in part 6.
YMMV.
Peter Jennings
If you think this is hard, wait ’til his “Tea Leaves” post … *g*
((( Paul )))
BTW, Raven and dakine, thanks for the help. MacBook up and running nicely.
So, what were the results of your QED study find?
Ah good.
See 52
Cool
I’m ever impressed what people can accomplish when given opportunities to do so. Folks need to hear more about the accomplishments of people that have a GED
Yea, the GI Bill was the “greatest economic flywheel” in American history because it gave people opportunity. The GED was actually a military program designed to give vets credit for education they received while serving. Also, the GI Bill was, in many ways, an anti-revolution measure based on the experience with the “Bonus Army” after WWI. NOW I have some footnotes!
Verra cool (and important!) footnotes, Raven.
And, damned relevant to our times, as nahant suggests.
Yea, unfortunately, making as living in adult literacy is very difficult so I had to find another way to flip the flapjacks in education.
a living
I was a major pothead in high school. Always in the 99th %’ile on every test. Never gave it much thought. Missed graduating by 1/2 credit (American History of all things). Got my GED the following summer and never looked back. Coulda got scholarships if I’d have paid attention to the future. Problem was: I was not challenged. Still haven’t attained a degree. Don’t know that it would be that important at my age (40 something), but I am still taking some (non-credit) classes at the local Junior College. Never hurts to be edjumicated. ;~P
Awww come on Paul, I come to FDL to have people like you interpret the charts for me.
This is like having to take apart a piece of music that is so difficult that I have to break it down and practice every line before I can play it.
Play it for me Paul!
i never knew the history behind GED. Thanks for the history lesson *g*
Yea, well the judge gave me the choice, Army or jail on my 17th birthday.
Got in a little hometown jam
put a rifle in my hand
sent me off to Vietnam. . .
nope, never too late
Yea, it was fascinating. The “elite” institutions were livid at the idea of admitting the unwashed vets! My old man was the first college grad in the family and I followed it up under the GI Bill.
That was a very popular adjudication in those days, especially down South. Many a young hellion found himself in olive drab courtesy of the judical system.
Yea, South and West Chicago!
I’m sure everyone knows about “Project 100,000″ where they took that many “non-qualifiers” per year. That’s how guys like Cheney avoided it, other took their place.
hi everyone….
sorry, I thought the post was going up at noon FDL time, and when I saw Jane’s post, I decided to take a nappy ;-).
As to an executive summary, well, yesterday’s part I was the “summary” of the whole piece…. btw, when did we all decide that adopting the language of big business was the way to go? I prefer the term “rank and file summary” myself.
But here’s the summary.
As the percentage of Black votes increases, a nice big chunk of white people who supported Hillary Clinton give their support to McCain (or undecided), and as a result men and women vote more alike. (Because this series was not about race, but about gender voting patterns, the primary frame of reference is gender voting patterns — and how racism alters the level of sexism that can be perceived in the data.)
Too often the most-important endeavors are not appreciated or valued.
Perhaps the ‘experience’ of our times will change that.
We’ve not much choice.
‘Qualitative’ is where (my prejudice holds) genuine, meaningful and useful information and ‘exchange’ leading to ‘understanding’ occurs.
It is at the heart of true learning, aside from the ‘hard’ sciences, and even then, Rule Number 5 should be the guiding principle…
During the mid-1960s, the War on Poverty was declared to address the problems of a large, disadvantaged section of the U.S. population. Within this context, concern arose over the published estimate that 1-3d of the nation’s young men, if examined for military induction, would fail to meet existing aptitude/education standards. A large portion of those who would be rejected came from disadvantaged backgrounds, had little education, and were unemployed. (1)
In an 8-23-66 speech before the Vets of Foreign Wars, SecDefense Robert S Mcnamara declared: The poor of America have not had the opportunity to earn their fair share of this Nation’s abundance, but they can be given an opportunity to serve in their Country’s defense, and they can be given an opportunity to return to civilian life with skills and aptitudes which for them and their families will reverse the downward spiral of human decay.
On 10-1-66, Mcnamara launched P/100000 in response to Pres Johnson’s War on Poverty. Under this program, DoD began accepting men, as volunteers or draftees, who would not qualify for military service under previous aptitude and medical standards. The Office of the SecDefense outlined 3 main purposes for the project: > Greater equity in spreading the opportunities and obligations of military service;
> Recognition of the unique capability of the military training establishment to produce fully satisfactory servicemen among culturally disadvantaged men who had previously been deferred;
> Foresighted military manpower planning. The manpower goal of P/100000 was to accept 40,000 men under relaxed standards during the 1st year and 100,000 per year thereafter. Approximately 91% of these “New Standards Men,” as they were called, came in under lowered aptitude/education standards, and 9% entered under lowered physical standards (i.e., with readily remediated physical defects). This testimony “focuses only on the L/A group.
Agreed. I found some great stuff about the “Best and the Brightest” and their reliance on numbers while Charlie kicked our ass with shit we threw away.
The ‘best and brightest’ now replaced by the ‘worst and dumbest’ seem little different in their pathologies …
No. The original data was based upon a statewide survey done by SUSA. All this shows is that in States with large black populations (i.e. the Deep South) the white population tended to support Clinton more than States like Minnesota, North Dakota, New Hampshire, Vermont with smaller black populations.
The problem is that in a GENERAL election those same white voters may not support Clinton, either. The States will still go Red. In fact, with the reduced turnout from African Americans and young people the Stattes may even have fewer individuals supporting Clinton than Obama.
Both have no problem with ‘throwing’ people and lives away … as well as ’shit’ (including money and the ‘future’).
I’m witcha
okay, the most important thing to remember is that this is all about relationships — its more about how the lines relate to each other, than about the lines themselves.
Its also important to keep in mind that other than the black line, all the lines represent differences in margins. So, let me explain the Blue line (Male Gap) I can say that in Clinton v McCain, Clinton got 40% of the male vote, and McCain 55%, and in Obama v McCain, Obama got 45% of the male vote, amd McCain got 52%. None of those numbers are on the chart.
Now, those numbers tell us that Clinton had a -15% margin in the male vote against McCain, and Obama had a -7% margin in the male vote against McCain. But those margin numbers aren’t on the chart either.
What is represented on the chart is the MARGIN GAP, i.e. difference between Clinton’s -15% margin, and Obama’s -7% margin, i.e. -8%.
That MARGIN GAP gets smaller the higher the percentage of black votes.
The same goes for the FEMALE GAP. The GENDER GAP SHIFT line (HOT PINK) combines the Male Gap and Female Gap to give you and idea of changes in the overall gender gap.
The White vote shift (Orange line), on the other hand, just looks at the difference in support of white voters for Obama and Clinton. It describes how the White Vote SHIFTS away from Obama as African Americans make up more of the electorate.
The reason there are positive and negative values is because gaps and shifts will favor one candidate or the other. So, on the left side of the chart, the Orange line is above 0, meaning that Obama gets more white support than Clinton. When it goes below the “Plum” line, it means that Clinton gets more white support than Obama.
I find it fascinating (not unexpected, but fascinating) that what people concentrate on is the change in white voting patterns — the whole point of the SERIES was to draw attention to the impact of sexism on the electoral landscape, and this part was meant to explain one important reason why there are such differences in gender voting patterns throughout the states.
LOL!!
We were talking about an executive like Bush ya no dumbed down a bit :>)
just a note — the reason why I used “complicated” margin gap lines was to examine the data from within only the universe of people who support Obama or Clinton, i.e. its all about the relationship of Obama and Clinton and male and female voting patterns.
Almost all the states represented on the far right of the chart are states that are in the South, and aren’t voting for Clinton or Obama. About half the states represented by the data on the far left of the chart are “Mountain/Plains” states, which aren’t going for either Clinton or Obama.
This isn’t about “predicting” results — its about observing a phenomenon, in other words.
Why would they switch? How was this measured?
Weighed percentage of white people voting for Clinton
MINUS
Weighed percentage of white people voting for Obama
EQUALS
White Vote Shift
Hmm well considering that the only group charted outside of gender was black and non-black, i don’t see why you should be surprised, fascinated, etc.
When the chart keeps refering to balck trend lines and crossover or voting switches because of an increase in the turnout of ‘black’ (not minorities just black voters), people are going to be drawn to why the presence of an increase of black voters would drive a switch to a repug.
So feel free to ignore my above question as it was not the point of your charts
i love me some selise too!
The point then of the survey is what? Certainly not to extrapolate this to a wider narrative of gender/racism, or?
Paul- When I look at the cross State comparisons from the same data set (the Survey USA Poll) I don’t find things quite so linear.
Let’s take the Top 12 States with the highest black populations.
MS(36% Black) McCain 51% v. Clinton 42%/ McCain 54% v. Obama 41%
LA (32% Black) McCain 51% v. Clinton 41%/ McCain 54% v. Obama 39%
S.CAR (29% Black) McCain 48% v. Clinton 42%/ McCain 48% v. Obama 45%
GA (29% Black) McCain 56% v. Clinton 35%/McCain 54% v. Obama 41%
MD (28% Black) McCain 40% v. Clinton 49%/ McCain 40% v. Obama 53%
AL (26% Black) McCain 51% v. Clinton 41%/McCain 54% v. Obama 40%
NCAR(22% Black) McCain 49% v. Clinton 41%/McCain 47% v. Obama 45%
VA (20% Black) McCain 50% v. Clinton 40%/McCain 47% v. Obama 47%
DEL (19%% Black) McCain 41% v. Clinton 46%/McCain 41% v. Obama 50%
TN (16.5% % Black) McCain 46% v. Clinton 46%/McCain 54% v. Obama 38%
NY (16% Black) McCain 33% v. Clinton 55%/McCain 38% v. Obama 52%
AR (16% Black) McCain 40% v. Clinton 51%/McCain 53% v. Obama 33%
Looking at the above, in these areas of proportionately largest black population..In Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama there’s virtually no shift at all in the voters to McCain (or if there is it’s balanced by shifts from McCain back). In South Carolina, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, Virginia and Delaware there MUST BE a net shift of White Voters TO OBAMA (assuming that all AA voters stay attached to the Democrats regardless of candidate)! It’s quite simple, Hillary does worse against McCain in those States than Obama does. Only in Tennessee, Arkansas and New York does Obama lose votes to McCain that Hillary would have captured. In the case of New York, this hardly matters electorally. But it would impact Arkansas and Tennessee. This may be countered by Obama making the Carolinas and Virginia battleground states, and gaining secure wins in Maryland and Delaware.
I think your premise is largely correct, but is impacted significantly by regional patterns (Deep South vs. Piedmont; Appalachia vs. Midwest) and strong “home state” affiliations (Arkanasas and New York).
Actually, is only black and white. Hispanics and “Other” were also broken down in the polling data, and when I do my piece on race and the election, I’ll discuss the variances in those groups, and how it affects the landscape.
That’s the problem with discussing just one section of the final part of a four part study of gender, sexism, and misogyny, I guess. Like I said, this is really intended only as a mean of explaining the variances in the gender gap.
As to your question “why would they switch”, because they are racist scum, just as in other states, Obama voters switch to McCain instead of voting for Clinton because they are misogynistic scum.
The whole “gender gap shift” variable was created without any idea of “race” being involved — it was designed originally to look at the levels of male and female voting for Obama, and comparing it to Clinton’s levels in the same state.
Is the shift one for one?
Are the McCain votes actually former racist Clintonistas or misogynistic former Obamites?
Or do we just see non-racist misogynists and non misogynistic racists coming out to vote for McCain when they are complacent to stay home otherwise?
Cinn…
actually, I go into that in a later part of the article, where I look at patterns in three subsets of states — those with 0%-5% Black voters, those with 4%-19% blacm voters, and those with 17-33% black voters.
Here is all the data used in this part of the study
and here is the data from the parts of the study where I break it down..
In essence, not a lot happens in the low percentage states, the big changes occur in the middle states… but even in the high percentage states, while the increase in black voter participation results in better numbers for Hillary, the impact is marginal if not negative for Obama.
Only in the bottom three states in those ranked by Black % does one see any significant shift away from Obama at all…but these are BIG Shifts compared to the smaller shifts FOR Obama in the Piedmont states. Two of these are Clinton “home states”.
But I’m a bit worried about generalizing too much from the gender/racial subset data within the states when the more robust (higher N) data suggests that Obama is NOT losing these White votes to McCain in 9 of the 12 States with the highest black populations.
Or maybe the patterns become more extreme in States with average Black populations rather than the extremes on either side?
thanks for the data links
my points earlier are that it is not a zero sum game – the people who do not vote are a significant factor as well
I discussed the regional data on the gender gap shift in Part II of the series without, however addressing the issue of race…. but it was those results, and what I noticed in Part III (when I looked at states that supported Obama, but switched to McCain against Hillary, that lead to Part IV (this part)
There are actually 5 “home states” AK, AZ, HI, IL, & NY — but I didn’t try to exclude them from the data set because when you average them out, they don’t look like outliers — and when you start excluding outliers, you wind up with a new data set with its own outliers ;-)
actually, the bottom two (LA, MS) show relatively small “white vote shifts” compared to the other “high percentage states” (see data chart
And, of course, this doesn’t mean that they are any less racist there…just that they weren’t supporting Clinton, and didn’t support Obama either.
the patterns emergy in the “moderate percentage” states — and with a vengeance. The “white vote shift” line rises at a much sharper anglce than the “black vote %” line” in those states. In the highest states, it seems like so few people are supporting Clinton that the shift to Obama is reduced.
everything is a factor — this is a snapshot (all data was gathered Feb 26-28, using automated phone calling, asking the exact same questions in the exact same order, and its actually 50 different surveys, each with an MOE of about +-4 points), not a movie, and the data is registered voters, not likely voters. Its a “landscape” that is being described in terms (primarily) of gender voting patters.
An addendum to this piece does consider other surveys to look at what happens to the gender gap over time — and the impact of race becoming an “issue” rather than just a “factor”.
Obsevation is fine and good.
Most everybody here ‘does’ at least the merest modicum of that.
‘A phenomenon’ is certainly one way to describe ‘it’.
Do your observations suggest any definition of the ‘consequences’ a society (which may also be defined as concerning ‘relations’, but between people rather than lines) might face if manifesting this phenomenon?
Do these obsevations suggest any actions to ‘address’ the ‘problems’, if, indeed, there are any, associated with the ‘phenomenon’?
Paul, I do not mean to appear vexaious to you, neither am I in any way or fashion impungning the rigor of your research, but I do wonder as to its ‘point’.
You say that you are not ‘predicting’ but merely observing, reporting the ‘facts and just the facts …’, but to what end?
Believe me, your research is most-interesting, in an (academically) removed fashion.
Paul, there are academicians who insist that democracy can disappear from America, but that the complexity of the society will remain unchanged because there will still be hierarchies and relationships built on ‘power’.
Therefore, these notables exclaim, the loss of democracy is not sufficiently disruptive as to cause a complex society to collapse, merely to ‘change’.
For my tastes, your posts would benefit from some speculative aspects, relating to such notions as causal factors and ongoing consequence. We might speculate, for instance, that poor eductional experience or ‘economic class’ might be found to ‘contribute’ to the ’causes’ of sexist racism or racist sexism or that we might expect our society as a whole, to suffer real ‘consequences’ as the ‘acting out’ of this phenomenon
proceeds.
Mostly, where might you suggest we find a ’safe’ vantage point, that we, our sanity and our world, might not perish as the Troubadors of Death sing their Endtime songs, appealing to those who ‘are’ the ‘phenomenon’? An ‘Observatory for Phenomenal Consequence’ perhaps?.
Should we not make some actual ‘use’ of your compelling data? For certain, the ‘Dark Side’ is making hay with ‘it’, not to mention mayhem and murder.
Anyway Paul, I look forward to your sense of how this ‘information’ which you have gathered may be put to use. Perhaps, though, that task is for someone else, in future …?
Okay. So it’s not actually a situation where the States with the GREATEST Black voter proportion has the greatest “white shift”. What you are saying is it’s in the States that have moderate Black %ages where the effect is seen. That’s a different point than your “summary”.
But how did the SUSA go about measuring “participation”? Didn’t all they measure was “preference”? I don’t think the SUSA data shows any measure of whom is likely to actually go out and vote for a particular candidate.
And I don’t see the “negative” for Obama in these high % States except in Tennessee, Arkansas and New York (and these are in the lower end of the ranking of black proportionate States). If 4-6% advantages for Obama are not considered significant…then one would have to throw out NY as being significant for Hillary. That leaves Arkansas and Tennessee.
Now I haven’t looked at the mid-range data for black %ages…but if you say that the phenomenon is mainly apparent in those States with between 10-15% black populations and not at the extremes one has to start worrying about finding extraneous statistical patterns in selective sample sets.
What the data shows us is the latter. We can’t determine what percentage of people who are voting for McCain overall are racists, because a lot of them are sexist as well. The fact that there is little evidence of race based voting patterns in the Mountain states doesn’t mean there is no racism there, just that there is no “shift” in voting patterns that can be used to quantify it to some extent.
And no, its not “one to one”… its biggest impact is felt in the moderate percentage states.
Also, keep in mind that this data is weighed to show impact on overall margins — that means that in a state like Maine, where (IIRC) 97% of the voters are white, getting 52% of the white vote gives you a majority of the electorate, and that 52% would show up on a weighed sheet as 50.4%. But in a state like Maryland where white voters make up only 74% of the electorate, that 52% shows up as 38.5% of the electorate. (IIRC, In MD, Obama gets only 41% of the white vote, but still leads McCain overall because he dominates the non-white (predominately black) vote).
paul, could you possibly post the excel file (or whatever you used) of the raw data, your sources and a description of your analysis methods (with enough detail so that we could reproduce your results)? i’m interested in what you have to say, but i’m not used to looking at this kind of data or presented in this way.
if you already posted this info and i missed it, would you put the links in prominent location? thanks!
Well, in the full post (over at Corrente…we’ll be discussing that part here on Sunday, I think) I do go into a full-blown rant on the whole issue of Clinton and sexism — mostly because in the first three parts of the series, people were demanding that I “tell them what it all means.”
But the way I do research is to try and keep my own opinions as separate as possible from the evidence itself — I could quite easily use this data to “prove” that Clinton (or Obama) is doomed, or that Obama (or Clinton) is the much better candidate in terms of electability.
But to me, doing this kind of research means being as unbiased as possible — and because it requires so much concentration, it actually becomes very hard to do the “opinion” stuff — that part of my brain turns off when I do this stuff.
I took the same approach when I did my Bush Military Records research — the only way to REPORT these kinds of facts is to do it without pre-conceptions or biases…. and let others draw their own conclusions.
Plus, by not expressing an opinion, what I do tends to get attacked less because regardless of the validity of the research, when you draw conclusions inconsistent with people’s biases, “you’ve obiviously screwed around with the data to prove your own point.” ;-)
Selise…
at http://www.glcq.com/election08/susa_gg4_notes.htm you’ll find an explantion of how the data was gathered, formatted, organized, and “weighed”, (and some random notes at the bottom relating to the addendum that I haven’t put the data up for yet) plus links to the data used in all three “big” charts (the smaller charts simply isolate one or two variables so that the relationship between the variables is more distinct).
There is a big typo…. the third “here” link is for the data for Chart Three, not Chart two.
The actual, complete data file (which breaks stuff down by gender, race, age, income, party, and ideology, plus regions within most states) is massive — not only does it include all the data from the SUSA polls, but it also has all the data in weighed form.
But everything I used in this piece is in the three files that I linked to, including the formulas I used for derived values.
I have no idea if it will make any sense to anyone but me, however :)
Point taken. I find your research unsettling, but not unexpected, and ‘that’ reaction, probably a widespread, is also very interesting.
I appreciate that you will not ‘predict’ for or against a condidate, any candidate.
But, one human being to another, would you care to predict our collective fate if such ‘phenomena’ as you describe are not ‘dealt’ with?
More of the same?
Probably.
I suspect our species at the cusp of destiny, hoisted on the horns of dilemma and indanger of losing our, um, ‘tenure’ …
oh, as for the excel files….they’re a mess. all over the place. But you can copy and paste the tables from the web into excel and they work just fine.
“participation” is a word that I used. The actual poll refers to voter registration percentages — but there is some variance in them between the most recent registration data from a number of states, and their percentages — I think that they include people who are not currently registered, but said they would do so in order to vote.
In other words, this isn’t “likely voters” — and at this point in the election cycle, trying to predict “likely voters” is a waste of time — especially since we don’t even know who the Dem nominee will be. (if Obama, I expect to see huge increases in black voter registration and participation on election day, but that won’t materialize as much if Clinton is the nominee, but we will see more women going to the polls)
Selise, this isn’t about electability for either candidate — (I did start an analysis of each candidate’s swing states, but dropped it because I didn’t want to get into that, especially since those states change weekly, and the poll was already a month old.)
And I haven’t really looked at the data in those terms on a state by state level—the swing state analysis just broke down the data into “battleground” (states where one candidate was favored to win, but not guaranteed a win) “swing” (states where the advantage of one candidate was less than half of the undecided vote) and “margin of error” (anything where the margin was plus or minus 3%.) States were meaningless, all I worked with were categories! ;)
excellent! but i don’t see the link to it…. am i blind?
i am a junky for data! *g*
p.s. i didn’t make any comment about electability – maybe that was someone else?
you’re right… but that’s why its a summary of trends, and why i go into far more wonky detail later in the piece.
no, you’re not blind. I’m not making that available to the public yet. But write to me at plukasiak AT comcast DOT net , and I’ll send you the whole massive mess. :)
Sorry selise, I keep forgetting that your acting like a data junkie here — when I see people talking about individual states, my “oh christ, s/he wants to tell me that Obama/Clinton is really more electable and is using individual state data to argue a point I don’t want to discuss” alarm goes off! ;)
I’m trying to wrap my head around this since you are making so many contrasts. This is essentially a multivariate analysis and there are certain dangers inherent in doing what you are trying to do that someone more familiar with non-parametric statistics will be able to point out.
Perhaps laying out the hypotheses to be tested first would be good.
As some have pointed out…science is unbiased…but the questions that scientists ASK should be relevant to issues IN THE WORLD. You are asking questions about sex, race, political choice…and distribution of race over geography. Part of that “choice” of questions may be the cards you were handed (i.e. the data provided by SUSA)…rather than, say, socio-economic or educational status.
But as you parcel this data into smaller and smaller subsets it becomes critical to ask if some of the relationships you find are chance, and which are simply outliers and whether the trend lines you find have statistical significance.
You are only looking at Whites (or, actually, non-Blacks) and examining that small number that shift from one Democratic candidate (rather than stay with the eventual nominee) to the Republican candidate. Then you are contrasting the differences in gender for this percentage. That could be a very small sample size that you are contrasting. Then you are making comparisons of that ratio across States to get a trend line. You need to speak with a non-parametric statistician to see if it’s allowable to use non-statistically significant data in developing a trend line, and then what criteria one uses to determine if the slope itself is significant from random or null.
And as you’ve already pointed out the trend lines don’t apply well to the extremes (States with large or small numbers of African American voters). So why did you decide to evaluate the classes where you did, excluding the samples that were “high” or “low” at those particular points. Arkansas and Tennessee are “extreme”, certainly… and would give a good trend line…but that would be softened if one included Delaware and Virginia.
Personally, I think if the statistical analysis is robust you could easily throiw out all the “home states” (Arkansas, Illinois, New York, Hawaii, Arizona) and should find the same trend. One would want to know if a “home state effect” was creating outliers that were biasing the slope of the trend line.
I saw something when I first looked at the SUSA data… huge gender gaps for Clinton, smaller ones for Obama, with the gaps for both (but especially for Clinton) weighted more toward the males (i.e. it might have been a 15 point gap for Clinton, but it was caused 40% of males, and 55% of females, supporting Clinton.)
So I gathered the data, and looked at it more closely, and found really obvious patterns. And I found some surprises — like I expected the gender gap to be largest in heavily Republican states — and it was, except for the south, where it was the lowest. And when I looked at how the “white shift” operated, I expected to see a greater change among women than men, assuming that the racist men were already voting against Hillary because they are sexist as well, so there would be that much of a change due to race becoming a factor among males. And I was wrong — there’s not much difference in who switches from Clinton to McCain in terms of gender.
The reason I make all my data available is to allow people to actually DISPUTE it, not just say “well, there are other factors involved, blah, blah, blah — its the same reason I put up EVERY law, regulation, and policy I found regarding Bush’s military records. If there is something wrong about what I’ve written, people have the tools to prove it, because I’d rather be proven wrong that sit around being wrong and not know it.
So please don’t hit me with this “you haven’t considered all the relevant factors” crap. I didn’t. NO ONE CAN.
And, btw, I’m not looking at “non-blacks”, only Whites. If I was looking at “non-blacks” i’d say I was looking at ‘non-blacks’, because the data is broken down into four separate ethnic/racial categories.
I did do that. small changes in the angle of trend lines appeared, but nothing major happened. And if you average the data from all five, the totals wind up looking pretty much like the averages from the other 45 states.
But when you start throwing out the outliers, where do you stop? WV is an outlier. So is MA. And the more outliers you throw out, the more states that look “normal” when the outliers are there start to look like outliers.
Paul
It was I (not Selise) that was concerned about whether this result implied a “negative for Obama” (and showed the pattern in the largest balck % States) because you said
My head is spinning about this scenario that you are suggesting and trying to understand why the trend would diminish in the states with the largest black electorates and at the other extreme. I’m trying to think if the diminishing white population would have a countervailing impact, but that doesn’t make any sense, because then you’d have something of a bell-shaped curve with the peak in the middle of the “Mid-Sized black states”…not some dramatic lessening.
And what is the scale of the shift, in any case? Are we talking about a 10% jump of White males (that supported Obama) going to McCain if Hillary is the nominee and a 15% jump of females (that supported Clinton) if Obama is the nominee? Or is it on the order of 3-5%?
In Tennessee, which is on the upper end of your effect, there is an 8% shift from Clinton to McCain if Obama is the nominee. You break that down into male and female differences, which likely have higher sampling errors, but with that size of an original shift you might obtain real gender differences. But if the average shift is only 3%…is that statistically real? And if you find a 75:25 ratio within that small shift? That might seem statistically significant…but could be a gremlin of sampling.
Paul, if you don’t want people to raise very real issues about statistical significance of reducing small samples into sub-samples then you’ve made you point. I personally don’t have the statistical tools or capability to evaluate it…but I know that it is a real effect. It doesn’t mean your analysis is incorrect, simply incomplete to SAY whether the phenomnon is real or not at the sample size you are using.
That’s why you need to take this to a non-parametric statistician to see if you have a real phenomenon. You say you want criticism, well that’s positive criticism. I’m not asserting that what yopu have found is crap.
Apparently my advice is to your ears…so I have no more to say.
cinna…I just did a long response to your last comment, hit the wrong key, and lost it. Which means I’m just about fried…. ask again tomorrow, okay? ;-)
as to sample sizes… we’ve only go 50 states to work with. THAT in itself is a “too small” sample.
But as Donnie Rumsfeld would say “You work with the sample size you have, not the sample size you wish you had” ;-)