Ah, it’s funny how your political appointees in the Justice Department manage to give you the "okay" for your immoral and illegal conduct:
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality
Not asking "Is this legal?", no "after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality".
And, of course:
The department issued another still-secret memo in October 2001 that, in part, sought to outline novel ways the military could be used domestically to defend the country in the face of an impending attack. The Justice Department so far has refused to release it, citing attorney-client privilege, and Attorney General Michael Mukasey declined to describe it Thursday at a Senate panel where Democrats characterized it as a "torture memo."
Empty Wheel is the place to turn to in order to discuss such matters in detail. I blog so I don’t have to talk about law.
Although right now, I’ll just excuse myself to go dry heave over the thought of what the Bush Administration has done and how few folks seem to give a damn. But by all means Jake Tapper keep telling me what politicians smell of, because that’s the important stuff, not little things like war crimes, unconstitutional acts, and base immorality by my own government (my own being the distinction, even when I did not vote for them).
I know I’m not supposed to give a crap because I’m told by the always reliable Bush Administration that in each and every case "these people are trying to kill us". I’m not supposed to worry my not-so-pretty little head over it or lose sleep. Except, of course, I love America just enough to simultaneously not care about flag pins and still be against torturing people in its name.
And then there are the problems with who we are actually torturing, like crazy people and innocent people.
Maher Arar, Khaled al-Masri, Bisher al-Rawi and Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah. Names of innocent men who were guilty of nothing more than being Muslim and were renditioned and tortured for information they could not provide.
I also remember despite the proclamations to the contrary that the President doesn’t swear to keep me safe, he or she swears to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution". Maybe the next time John McCain tosses off the line of how he takes an oath to protect "the people" someone in the media can remember 4th grade civics and repeat the inaugural oath?
Or, like Jake Tapper, you can smell a politician.
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Zed is dead, and this is what he said: “Don’t want no shortnin’ in my bread.”
I also remember despite the proclamations to the contrary that the President doesn’t swear to keep me safe, he or she swears to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution”. Maybe the next time John McCain tosses off the line of how he takes an oath to protect “the people” someone in the media can remember 4th grade civics and repeat the inaugural oath?
Preferably, the question should *come* from a fourth-grader.
Well jayt! Good to see ya!
With those fine Justice Department opinions, the perps can plead the good-faith variant of the Nuremberg defense: “I was just following orders relying in good faith on the opinion of counsel.” John McCain wrote that defense into his Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 and incorporated it by reference into the MCA in 2006:
thanks; just released from Our Lady of The Perpetual Stomach-Flu…
On the bright side, I can now fit back into a few more suits than I could before….
it shall be a defense that such officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent did not know that the practices were unlawful and a person of ordinary sense and understanding would not know the practices were unlawful.
Gotta wonder about the constitutionality of that provision…
And McCain wrote it? Goddamn, it’d be nice to have an actual working MSM.
You know, I had not thought about it before, but that provision strikes me as a defense that could be plead, but not a bar to prosecution. That would make it a jury question. Arguably not even as strong as a rebuttable presumption, simply a form of common justification defense. Prosecutions overcome such hurdles every day. Not sure of this, it is late, but a thought anyway…
I think you’re probably right, but it sure flies in the face of the Uniform Code of Crim Justice, and everything I was taught in Crim Law 101.
Good faith reliance on advice of counsel should be an important factor,…
The Yoo Defense?
I remember, when I was a very young child, my mother telling me: “Ignorance of the law is no defense.”
yeah, I heard bush’s speech also
I remember, when not so young, my crim law professor, and a few judges since then, say the same thing…
“Yoo’s on First” by Ray McGovern is a must: http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=12672
Sure as hell someone will argue: “When I crushed that child’s testicles, I relied in good faith on John Yoo’s assurance that George Bush had the right as commander-in-chief to suspend all laws against torture, so what I was doing was perfectly legal.”
That’s a swell example.
John Yoo specifically included crushing a childs testicles, when asked.
Um, when asked if the President had the AUTHORITY to crush the childs testicles, not that Yoo was asked to crush any testicles himself, that I know of.
The military teaches all recruits, in basic training, that an unlawful order should never be followed. The suggestion that torture of a prisoner is somehow legally justifiable under any circumstance is so offensive it makes me physically ill. Literally. I can’t bring myself to understand the lack of outrage that our government tortured people. To death. Our congress bears considerable responsibility at this point for a total lack of action. As Johnathon Turrly (sp?) said on Countdown last night “these ARE war crimes.”
Good morning pups. It’s Bobo and Krugman this morning. Bobo typed a thing called “The Great Forgetting.” He must have lost his car keys or misplaced his glasses or something… He says the dawning of the Bad Memory Century will have vast consequences for the social fabric and the international balance of power. Mr. Krugman writes about “Health Care Horror Stories,” and says if being a progressive means anything, it means believing that we need universal health care.
http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
The coffee, tea and hot chocolate are ready, and even though I’ve pretty much lost my appetite given the topic of the thread, I’ve got banana pancakes. As a side note, now I understand Zane Grey’s title, “Riders of the Purple Sage.” My sage is in bloom, making it clear. Have as good a day as possible.
Well I guess that makes it a better example.
Goddamn right!
And, the thought that those crimes will likely go unavenged makes me scream. We need to punish those assholes, i.e., bring ‘em to justice.
We old dead heads prefer the “New Riders of the Purple Sage”. Henry put the brakes on for this corner if yuo please!
Actually, the example was put to John Yoo by Doug Cassel. But John replied in the affirmative that there is no law or treaty that can prevent the President from lawfully issuing such an order during time of war.
I am quite surprised that no one this morning has commented about my secret comment earlier. It was provocative, timely, on topic and thoughtful… but that is all I can say about it at this time as I am having trouble remembering it.
my bold
we make a big mistake when we use that term, these are innocent people, they have not been tried
everyone is a suspected terrorist in the middle east as far as the administration is concerned, if they speak the language they are a suspected terrrorist
and that’s the way we have to discuss this depravity, not with “suspected terrorist” but with “innocent people who the administration just claim are suspected terrorists”
and when challenged, we point out how many innocent people they have in custody, how few convictions they have achieved
this is a big thing here, the administration is rounding up anyone and everyone who someone else and anyone else says “I think he’s your guy’, even when that person is doing it to get rid of a business competitor or someone in
the way of their love interest
I know what you meant, you meant to say;
“the administration’s definition of any brown person with a bullet in their head is “terrorist”
I get it
Last night about this time I asked why we’re fighting over MidEast oil when it appeared that there’s a 40-year supply in North http://links.mkt753.com/ctt?kn…..cS1Dakota. This morning’s NY Times has my answer:
Well, it’s official. Journalism is dead. They’ve memorialized it in a Museum of Journalism in Washington.
Oops! That last line was supposed to read:
yep.
(gagging again myself)
important post Attaturk– thank you.
Well, it’s like the old saying goes, if you wanna make an omlette, you gotta torture a few innocent eggs to death.
Jack Balkin considers “truth commissions” as a possible alternative to prosecution for war crimes: http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..ssion.html
I still don’t like it.
INVESTIGATE. iNTERROGATE. IMPEACH. INDICT. CONVICT. INCARCERATE.
Yo Nancy, can you hear us NOW?
Mornin’ all!
Well golly, a “truth commision” could be a good start, however, I think IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS would serve the same purpose…
I’m all for efficiency in government!
Although, I interpreted the idea as a PRECURSUR to war crime prosecutions, not a substitute for them.
Good morning all. Cold’s one the wane, which means it wasn’t strep throat & I didn’t have to take antibiotics.
As for the topic, the corporate media are still using denial as a coping techinique, the country as a whole can’t believe prez would committ war crimes, and we now talk about torture as an every day event.
I want my country back.
Wow. Just back from icasualties.org. I’ve been having problems on the site in the past few days and this morning they have an announcement that they’ve suffered a viscious cyber attack but now seem to have found the source & hope to have it fixed soon. Which member of the W admin is respoonsible, I wonder. Part of the suppression of speech campaign.
Juan Cole ahas an interesting way to look at what’s happened
Right on!
I’m going to make a bumper sticker:
Think we could bump Obama past Hillary on this Time 100 list?
yep.
lazy, crazy and immoral. not to mention FASCIST.
(Senator Byrd warned the American people, but most were watching American Idol, not cspan.)
(glad you are feeling better)
Who the hell is “Rain” and why is he/she/it #1?
Solid, Attaturk, really solid! Thank you for this.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_(singer)
OOPS, sorry. (singer) should be part of the URL
Damn, I miss EDIT!
Rain (singer)
In serious EPUville here, but it’s funny that you should bring up “Riders of the Purple Sage.” Seems like the old-style Mormons are still doing the same things Grey wrote about in this excellent novel. There’s a sequel that’s also a good read.