Second in a series
The other day, Emptywheel invited her readers to play a little game with the Yoo torture memo. She invited them to try to find a mention of a Supreme Court case called Youngstown Steel. You won’t find it mentioned in Yoo’s memo.
So, you may be asking, I’m sure there are lots and lots of Supreme Court cases not included in the memo, what’s the big deal? The big deal is that Youngstown Steel is the case which defines the limits of presidential power in a time of war. Yes, there are other cases which deal with this issue, but Youngstown v. Sawyer, 343, U.S. 579 (1952), is the case where the Supreme Court set forth a series of balancing tests for determining how much power a president can assert during wartime, relative to pre-existing treaties, statutes and the Constitution.
To avert a nation-wide strike of steel workers in April 1952, which he believed would jeopardize national defense, the President issued an Executive Order directing the Secretary of Commerce to seize and operate most of the steel mills. The Order was not based upon any specific statutory authority but was based generally upon all powers vested in the president by the Constitution and laws of the United States and as President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.
The Supreme Court then analyzed whether the president may do whatever he believes to be necessary to protect the nation in a time of war based on his Commander in Chief powers. John Yoo says that based on the power as Commander in Chief, the President can do ANYTHING, even ignore Treaties and Acts of Congress, if he believes it necessary in order to protect the country. Even crush the testicles of the child of a detainee being interrogated.
Youngstown is still good law, it hasn’t been overturned, yet Yoo somehow managed to ignore it. Gee, I wonder why?
Maybe because of a quote like this?
The President’s power, if any, to issue the order must stem either from an act of Congress or from the Constitution itself.
Or this?
In the framework of our Constitution, the President’s power to see that the laws are faithfully executed refutes the idea that he is to be a lawmaker. The Constitution limits his functions in the lawmaking process to the recommending of laws he thinks wise and the vetoing of laws he thinks bad. And the Constitution is neither silent nor equivocal about who shall make laws which the President is to execute. The [343 U.S. 579, 588] first section of the first article says that "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States . . . ." After granting many powers to the Congress, Article I goes on to provide that Congress may "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."
Or this?
The President’s order does not direct that a congressional policy be executed in a manner prescribed by Congress – it directs that a presidential policy be executed in a manner prescribed by the President
Or this?
The Founders of this Nation entrusted the lawmaking power to the Congress alone in both good and bad times. It would do no good to recall the historical events, the fears of power and the hopes for freedom that lay behind their choice. Such a review would but confirm our holding that this seizure order cannot stand.
By now, even without a law degree, you have figured out that SCOTUS overturned the President’s action.
Some of the most prescient and eloquent prose in this case comes from the concurring opinion written by Justice Frankfurter. These words could have just as easily been written today.
To that end they rested the structure of our central government on the system of checks and balances. For them the doctrine of separation of powers was not mere theory; it was a felt necessity. Not so long ago it was fashionable to find our system of checks and balances obstructive to effective government. It was easy to ridicule that system as outmoded – too easy. The experience through which the world has passed in our own day has made vivid the realization that the Framers of our Constitution were not inexperienced doctrinaires. These long-headed statesmen had no illusion that our people enjoyed biological or psychological or sociological immunities from the hazards of concentrated power. It is absurd to see a dictator in a representative product of the sturdy democratic traditions of the Mississippi Valley. [343 U.S. 579, 594] The accretion of dangerous power does not come in a day. It does come, however slowly, from the generative force of unchecked disregard of the restrictions that fence in even the most disinterested assertion of authority.
However it is in Justice Jackson’s concurrence that we find the famous balancing test. Yes, the same Justice Jackson who was the prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials and who gave the famous speech about not politicizing the prosecution function. Here’s the test, it’s pretty straightforward and see if you think it essentially guts Yoo’s whole argument.
1. When the President acts pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress, his authority is at its maximum, for it includes all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate. [2] In these circumstances, [343 U.S. 579, 636] and in these only, may he be said (for what it may be worth) to personify the federal sovereignty. If his act is held unconstitutional under these circumstances, it usually means that the Federal Government [343 U.S. 579, 637] as an undivided whole lacks power. A seizure executed by the President pursuant to an Act of Congress would be supported by the strongest of presumptions and the widest latitude of judicial interpretation, and the burden of persuasion would rest heavily upon any who might attack it.
2. When the President acts in absence of either a congressional grant or denial of authority, he can only rely upon his own independent powers, but there is a zone of twilight in which he and Congress may have concurrent authority, or in which its distribution is uncertain. Therefore, congressional inertia, indifference or quiescence may sometimes, at least as a practical matter, enable, if not invite, measures on independent presidential responsibility. In this area, any actual test of power is likely to depend on the imperatives of events and contemporary imponderables rather than on abstract theories of law. [3]
3. When the President takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress, his power is at its lowest ebb, for then he can rely only upon his own constitutional powers minus any constitutional powers of Congress over the matter. Courts can sustain exclusive presidential control in such a case only by disabling [343 U.S. 579, 638] the Congress from acting upon the subject. [4] Presidential claim to a power at once so conclusive and preclusive must be scrutinized with caution, for what is at stake is the equilibrium established by our constitutional system.
Did you see anything there that said the President could just ignore treaties or statutes passed by Congress? Like the War Crimes Act for instance?
Nah, me neither. Probably why Yoo decided not to mention it. It might get in the way of crushing children’s testicles.
He makes me so ashamed to be a lawyer.
[Editor's note: The photo atop the post, by takomabibelot, features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]
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zed
CNN says the SF Chronicle is going to be ferried by boat…. Ha ha ha ha
almost zed
The “cherry-pick” administration.
Justin Hermann plaza: “Rock and Roll Stops Traffic.”
The runners will run around on the boat and pass the torch to one another
Cuz he is stopid!?
YAY!!
LHP!
Sweet way to frame Stupies wheel chocks.
Heck, IANAL and even I know about Youngstown Steel. But then, it does have something to do with economics.
Reading this and emptywheel’s Youngstown challenge the other day leads me to think it may be worth it to impeach Bush/Cheney, even if that impeachment occurs on January 19, 2009. And this post leads me to ask, “Can there be such a thing as a restraining order that keeps a president from being able to issue pardons?”
IIRC impeachment hearing would prevent bush for issuing pardons….We can hope that congress gets some balls and start the process!
I’ve stopped holding my breath
Yo!
LHP, I took your last post to heart about the vile Yoo and the result?
A plan of action in the form of:
Enough is enough!
Let me know what you think. And the rest of you?
Vote in the poll.
I’m already moving forward with this and look forward to some interesting conversations. As Steve the G. usta say our primary goal should be…must be….to:
‘Fight Back!’
I remember someone alluded to this passage in the memo (I think it is around page 12 or 13) which indirectly evokes Youngstown but stands it on its head.
Sadly, I don’t think so. The pardon power has historically been treated as absolute.
However, I argued at the time of the Libby pardon that a “bad faith” use of the pardon power could be veiwed as void or voidable, but that would be making some new law, which is OK by me.
Splendid!
Terrific analysis.
I agree with every damn word you wrote, except for the last sentence.
Attorneys like you make me proud of the legal profession.
Per Busted above YAY LHP!
Good you were turning blue
Which is why he had to reach back to 1862 to find a case, and as per his usual practice in this memo, he is taking things out of context and mixing apples and oranges.
Sigh
Thanks, LHP!
The Rove-Cheney-Bush cabal, however, understood something that the framers of our Constitution did not anticipate: The Executive can act much more quickly than the Legislature or the Judiciary. And that’s what they have done. Besides, they also know that it is up to the Executive to carry out the will of Congress and the Courts, and they can stonewall. By the time the Leg and the Courts decide to act, it may be too late: The Revolution may be over. And that is why impeachment is so important.
I hope it is NOT too late to undo this mess. I have hope in one accelerator. For example, there are something like 40 lawsuits pending on the question of Telcom involvement in illegal wiretapping. The Administration, of course, will attempt to gum each one to death. But one adverse judgement can cause a domino effect on dozens of similar cases.
I still hope.
Bob in HI
But it’s misuse to stymie an impeachment proceeding could in and of itself be considered a high crime and misdemeanor. The question would then become if the fruit of such a crime or misdemeanor was valid.
Lets Digg this LH … great post Loosehead!!!
It is instructive to consider that these opinions were being sought and framed at a point in time when a Congressional challenge to power was all but impossible. The purpose of this direction was not to address immediate war powers, but to break the balance of powers permanently.
It is because of the telecom cases that we even get to see this memo at all.
There is NOTHING in this memo that would apear to merit it being held as classified. Mary spent the better part of 2006 and 2007 writing post after post, comment after well researched comment, about the abuse of the classification authority.
They have turned it on its head and used it not only to hide smoking gun documents, but also to muzzle law abiding former members of the government who do not want to violate the law to save it.
It’s really pretty sickening
ah, l’affaire bono. was working backstage that day.
Yep. Well done, LHP; this is very helpful in understanding Yoo’s deliberate, unethical malpractice of law.
My fear is that the Bush/Alito/Roberts SCOTUS takes one of these cases and decides to ignore all precedent and declare whatever Bush has done legit.
Yoo’s addington is showing.
The torch is at Van Ness ave + Bush no where near the Embarcadero with two Runners… Walking down the street
Cool, A Citizen. Truly.
You might want to correct the “Unite States” in the first sentence.(/editorial pedant).
FunnyDiva
Thanks for the editorial help1
You did vote in the poll?
Probably too much to hope that someone will bring this up during Yoo’s House visit. If he decides to play, that is.
I’m no where even close to being smart enough to be a lawyer, but even I know if I happened to be in the room with him when he pulled that one out of his ass, I would’ve asked him if he had ever heard of Little v Barreme and why that has less relevance in his mind.
Yes, I am the king of run on sentences
;-)
looseheadprop, we are all ears but we are all on the same exact page
the ears that are deaf to any of this are those that keep this despot in office
and let’s be absolutely clear here
yoo would have written such an opinion if he had any doubt what so ever the new supreme court would uphold his memo
this I know in my heart of heart, there is no precendence they will honor that derails their actions in the past nor their intentions for the future
the CURRENT supreme court is the only court that matters
I FEAR we have tossed the word around so often it has lost it’s effectiveness but roberts and alito MUST be impeached if yoo’s ruling is to fail before the supreme court
otherwise his memo passes through untouched
going to vote in poll now.
FunnyD
and I must continue;
for yoo’s memo to be discredited as merely a rag, a piece of meaningless paper, yoo must be disbarred
if he is not, his memo and his writing will be examined as if there is credibility to what he wrote
yoo must be disbarred, roberts and alito must be impeached
and if none of those happen then our law has indeed been rewritten according to our worst fear
Just got home – what poll, please?
I would love to see these things happen. But what would be the grounds for impeachment? And who begins the hearings?
The train is leaving the station…..
Climb on board.
A Citizen’s poll. linky @ #13.
FunnyD
and let me ask finally to you looseheadprop;
why on earth is the bar not holding yoo to account for his depravity?
I know you know that when shakespear said “first thing to do is kill all the lawyers”, that quote really meant “that’s the only way to overthrow the government”
the quote is commonly taken out of context however it certainly begs the question;
our fourth esate is gone
our supreme court is gone
congress seems impotent
the lawyers are left to stand up and take control, they are indeed our last hope to keep our constitution and the seperation of powers, they MUST stand up NOW
are our lawyers also failing their country?
are they?
Yoo MUST be disbarred, he must
For starters Hugh’s list and probably usurpation of powers
Thanks
CONGRESS if they ever get the balls and go around Nancy (not on the table Nancy)
Shoot, I picked that up a week ago, on my first scan of the Torture Memo.
But, setting that aside, we need to note that Yoo, in citing the “Flanigan Memorandum” was actually citing his own work product (another memo) as authority for what he was extending in the Torture Memo.
When I was teaching legal research and writing as as a student adjunct, one of the lessons I pounded into both my own and my students’ heads was that someone who cites their own work as “authority” for their latest proposition, is deserving of less reliance – as a source of legal authority or as an interpreter of legal principles. That, because in so doing they are going off on a tangent untested by the adversarial process. And that even extends to Supreme Court Justices.
It’s a walking example of why incest is a bad idea.
It’s also intellectually dishonest.
If you look at the occasional law review article penned by a state or federal jurist – even the ones who sit on state Supreme Courts – you will rarely (if ever) find one in which the jurist discusses (let alone extols, expands or expounds upon) the decision he/she has just rendered. (I’ve never found one, but I do not exclude the possibility they might exist.) You’re likely even to find that appellate judges, when writing an opinion in a later case, do not cite as authority earlier precedential cases in which they wrote the opinion. This, of course, excludes trial courts when they write a number of opinions in a single case and say something like “I decided issues A, B, and C in my prior opinion in this case, and this established the law of the case. I now apply that prior opinion and the principles stated therein to decide issues D, E and F.” That is different from saying “I decided principle X exists/applies in a certain way, in Case G v. S. I apply, in case R v. N, principle X, and cite to G v. S as authority.” The latter is illegitimate, as the judge then is placing his own interpretation of the law as paramount. In a common law system – as we have – there is nothing new under the sun, and precedent available for everything. One merely has to do the research.
Which, by the way, shows just how depraved Yoo’s conduct in citing – repeatedly – to his own analyses in prior memos expanding executive power, in later memos further expanding executive power. He had to not cite to the directly on-point precedent – Youngstown Steel – because he could not get to the desired result (more executive power) if he did.
He gives whores a bad name.
Hmmm….conspiring (including with the Brits) to lie to the Nation to take us into a war against a country that had not attacked us by using propaganda based on known fallacies? Disregarding our laws…subverting the Constitution….Conspiring with Telcos to spy on American citizens without a warrant….Torturing…
There must be something there…
Question – what legal import can this Yoo’s memo have – so far it’s just advise some lawyer gave a client right? Anyone can write a memo.
I understand why Yoo avoided a discussion of Youngstown; by reading this post, everybody does. Thing is, I don’t think he had to, and the fact that he did so omit proves conclusively how intentionally dishonest and unethical, to literally almost a criminal degree, his effort was. I say this because I think there were plenty of slippery ways to distinguish Youngstown if Yoo were making an honest effort. For instance, (I don’t buy this, am just giving examples) it could be argued that Youngstown involved civil law and domestic physical assets as opposed to military and quasi-military issues on extra-territorial soil. The decision in Youngstown itself is convoluted and weak from the unusual nature of so many concurring opinions that constituted the majority. There are several slippery distinctions that could have been made if it were a valid effort, but it was not; instead, it was a sham to legitimize obviously criminal and immoral behavior.
a president has based his actions on yoo’s “opinion” of the law, both the opinion of yoo and the action of the president must be eliminated from precedence
there is only one way to do that, yoo must be disbarred, otherwise right or wrong, his “opinion” carries with it the weight of history, action, failure to rebuke and precendence
yoo must be disbarred
Part of why I spent the weekend writing a series (yes, there will be more for the rest of the week) about his memo, is so that the MSM and Congress critters will have SOMEBODY calling bullshit in plain language.
I’m not writing for other lawyers here. I’m writing for the dead tree or TV guy who needs a quote or a soundbite. I’m writing for the staffer who will be drawing up the questions for his or her Congress critter to ask–if Yoo testifies.
If we explain the story in ways that are easy to understand, there is a chance it will actually get communicated to the American people.
Or at least, that is my hope
Here……
But the client is the President of the United States…he advised the President of the United States how to get away with torture…Seems that the intention of the President was to find away to torture even though it was against our laws and international laws and treaties. JMHO
Excellent post, LHP. Thanks for your terrific work on this.
I hold, yoo was given a gaurantee, his “opinion” would be upheld by scotus
I do not believe he could have possibly written these opinions without that gaurantee
and I maintain, yoo must be disbarred
I really like that site, by the way.
Maybe they said…find a way that we can do what we want to do inspite of Youngstown.
I know this is why you write here looseheadprop, to be honest, it is why I write here, and I happen to know some of what we write is picked up and used by our lawmakers
so to be fair, it is why I wrote what I wrote as well
you, me and others here at the lake are doing what we think we can do.
but still looseheadprop, the law profession is our last hope here, yoo must be disbarred
I believe the process for impeaching a Supreme Court judge would be the same as for any other federal judge; articles of impeachment from the House, trial in the Senate.
It happens. Federal judges have been impeached.
… at which time an overwhelming Dem majority in Congress impeaches the Supremes …
me, tennis, c all L8tr
We are ready……
Such a SCOTUS guarantee simply does not happen and even Yoo would not believe that if someone were stupid enough to try to tell him that.
Shudder…me too…seems like that was the plan…
The poll that A. Citizen has up is about making a complaint to the California bar.
I don’t know how they work, but certainly a large enough number of complaints–and from some heavyweights of the bar–might jumpstart some proceedings.
I’m not admitted in California and the only times I ever went there was for rugby. I don’t really know the answer
Gee poll says 100% Disbar the war criminal… buy him a ticket to the
Hague so he can turn himself in for trial….
I believe Alcee Hastings, currently a Representative from Florida, was the last sitting judge to be impeached. For some reason, he was not blocked from serving in elected positions which I believe IS one of the penalties that can be imposed.
Certainly that Yoo’s memo affected the action of the Pres. and others. But if some of this stuff actually went to trial, Yoo’s memo would be might be used as the basis of a defense, but that would be all it would be good for. Because the case would still be tried on the basis of law and precedent.
I don’t think Yoo is a member of the Calif. bar; with the possible exception of a pro forma membership from his law school faculty status.
My first post in this series was about the craptastic job Yoo did of citation. Most of his very worst depredations have zero citations in the entire paragrpah. I assume because he could not find anything whatsoever to support it (besides something written by Lenin)
The poll also allowed Canucks to vote … yaay !
Was he ever called to the bar anywhere? Because in the bios I saw there is no record of his ever practicing law anywhere – almost went straight from getting his degrees to acting as a law clerk and teaching.
Nuremberg…but that wouldn’t apply here probably.
Pennsylvania I believe.
Thanks.
no – its a prohibition from holding an “office of trust or profit” – that means no more executive or judicial branch jobs. Since the only qualifications for election to the legislative branch are age, residence, and citizenship, the impeachment cannot disqualify him.
Geez, the SF Swat Team is escorting the torchbearers…
Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) is sometimes referred to as the Little Supreme Court
Traditionally it has employed the best and brightest legal scholars that DOJ had. Many went on to become federal judges and even SCOTUS justices.
Therefore, OLC opinions have been given a courteous reading as if they almost were SCOTUS opinons.
An OLC opinion is MUCH more than an opinion memo I write to a private client. Or at least it used to be
The complaint form is linked at my post:
Enough is enough!
Seems to me all I need is a CA taxpayer to complain of Yoo’s actions. Yoo is an employee of a state funded university teaching law. I just started on this yesterday so all is not clear to me anyway….
Anyway we are gonna kick this around at our Drinking Liberally, Oakland meeting tonight. I messaged Jane about it on facebook. If nothing else getting it on the news would be good. I’m on record going back over a year complaining about Yoo being employed by UCB, which is a different issue but is a weak point for the facistii. At least so I believe.
Any input from you would be appreciated.
As theater this could be a very good thing and as Shakespeare said so notably, ‘The play’s the thing…wherein I’ll catch the conscience of the King!!
Dr. Murphy must be having a wonderful time.
It’s beautiful in the Bay Area today and apparently SF is jammed with people protesting.
hi LHP and pups–
drive-by while downloading mail-just got back into town…
i heard a new one the other night from a retired navy sub man, whom i like, a lot, he and his wife…now, not so sure…
he was putting away the grill from a fund-raiser at my mom’s elks club, i was coming in the back door from making a cell phone call outside.
he started talkin’ like he always does, we talk a lot.
he raised iraq.
it started and went on from there, here’s where it ended.
i said if we didn’t want to follow the rules of the geneva convention, then we shouldn’t be members.
he said the terrorists aren’t covered under the geneva convention, i said you can’t be serious! he was serious.
said he read it, they aren’t covered, and he’s stickin’ to it.
we’ve tiptoed around each other’s differeing views, and learned from each other, but this was beyond a stretch for me to wrap my brain around to try and understand that kind of logic. stupified me.
my last comment across the ’bow’ was ’there’s no al-queda in iraq’ as i went through the kitchen laughing.
he then gave me containers of his amish potato soup to take to my liberal friends.
wants me to send him my basra timeline lists…..think i’ll skip lists and links and just send him hugh’s list…
terrorists aren’t covered under the geneva convention, wrap your brain around that one.
it should win a prize or something.
bbl
Okay, got it. Which is why it is so pernicious.
Well, I guess we have differing definitions then as to what constitutes an “office of trust” as I tend to want Representatives I can trust.
absolutely – but I wanted to make clear that not only was his total lack of citation in some places bad, but rather that his citing his own prior work as authority for his present work was worse. It’s so bad that, had one of the 1Ls in my section turned in a similar self-citation, they would have been required to re-do the work.
As we (and all the other lawyers) know, it’s something every 1L has (or should have) drilled into their pointy little heads from sometime in their first semester onward. But, it’s also something non-lawyers don’t necessarily know (though they’ll usually agree with it, once explained).
You are really asking too much /s
Yah know Perris, SCOTUS justices read the newspapers too. They are aware of public opinion. I think you may find that after the WH goes blue, some of the more radical memebrs of SCOTUS will feel a bit more timid about doing anything really silly, like that.
Anyway, the Yoo opinion has already been “overturned”, by the Goldsmith opinion which repudiated Yoo.
Goldsmith and Yoo had been friends before this, so it was a great act of intellectual integrity (and a real statement of just how undefensable the Yoo opinions were) that Goldsmith was willing to patriotically destroy Yoo to save some shred of the COnstitution.
It must have been VERY hard for Goldsmith
From wiki on the Hastings impeachment
Mr. Yoo’s vision of executive authority is oriental, unmitigated by any Anglo-Saxon or Norman notions of equity, that the law may have an unjust effect which the upholders of the law are bound to cure. Equity began as an alternative to “the law”, a reasoned, sustainable way to deal with necessary exceptions. At times ignored, at other times so encased in formalism and procedures that it became inert, equity survived and was ultimately incorporated into “the law” itself.
Mr. Yoo evidently skipped legal history in favor of comparative law, particularly Chinese and Soviet jurisprudence. Confucius or Lenin would recognize his opinions more readily than Coke or Blackstone, let alone Robert Jackson.
It’s tempting to say that Mr. Yoo fell into the trap that awaits every lawyer asked to give advice to the ruthless, the powerful, the pitiless and the wealthy. He told them what they wanted to hear. His academic record makes clear he knew better; it suggests that he used guile in writing such a sweeping, “casually reasoned” opinion. Like a theatrical flat, that gave his advice the appearance of solidity, but only in the dark and when seen from far away. Hence, it was immediately “classified”.
I say “tempting” because Mr. Yoo’s consistent, understated arrogance in support of his work since leaving office suggests that he has no regrets, no deeper recognition of the law or its misuse (which he claims is outside the lawyer’s obligation to anticipate, a debatable issue that’s beside the point: the first objection to his work is that it’s bad law). Mr. Yoo looks like he didn’t “fall” into anything: he jumped in with both feet.
The biggest argument against SCOTUS ratifying Yoo is that the next prez will be a D and they don’t want him to have that power.
The other day, somebody had a link to a bio of him that said he was a member of the PA bar and another bar (I can’t remember what the second jurisdiction was)
forgot to add, there are many people ’lookin’ for a reason’ on this guy, and this would be a big one.
i said nothing to anyone.
my parents would be so appalled if they knew this guy said this……..even asked me what we were goin’ back and forth about…..i said the war.
he does all kinds of charity work, tireless in serving his community, but thinks like that. i was so thrown.
he kept drawing his finger across his throat and naming a soldier that they had slit his throat….think i heard he knows their family.
terrorists are not under geneva convention, they’re animals with no code of conduct is what he said.
dunno.
it so bothered me, i wanted to hug him and tell him there was no santa claus….and couldn’t find the right words. told him we would take that back up when i was in town next month.
i think it’s a military thing, is it? he was career military. proud of it, and should be.
if anyone has a hint of what to do with it, let me know.
Yoo makes me anxious to be a juror.
dakine at 82–”
Well, I guess we have differing definitions then as to what constitutes an “office of trust” as I tend to want Representatives I can trust.”
i learned to be trustworthy when i knew it was a trait that is valued and required to be a good person.
i think when it is valued and suggested as a requirement, it becomes a motivation.
thanks for mentioning it, can i use that in my letters i write?
i didn’t think of that one, it’s not worn out and kindof says it all.
thanks, dakine.
I think that the “second” thing on his CV was that he is “admitted to practice before the 9th Circuit”, but that isn’t a bar membership, and isn’t going to be yanked unless his bar membership in Pennsylvania is yanked.
Sadly, it would appear that the estimable Mr. Woo is neither a member of the CA bar nor the ABA….
Is that strange?
How is it he an teach law and not be licensed to practice same?
In the MOST technical sense they are not. The Nazis observed the Geneva Conventions with respect to American and British POWs. However the Nazis described resistance fighters (and others) as UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS and sent them to gas chambers and concentration camps. After torturing them for information.
This argument didn’t do them much good at Nuremberg, and I suspect it won’t do much good at the Hague, but what do I know?
Hey you Cunucks have a stake in this also as our close friends and citizens of the world,,,
Oh, I could not agree with you more, and with your prior comment as well. I was reinforcing the point you were making
Scott Horton recently claimed that John Yoo is a member of both the CA and PA, in a context, it seemed to me, that invited readers to ask both why that still is.
Those who can’t do, teach?
excellent post, LHP. I see Yoo is being “invited” to come testify in front of the House Judiciary. Perhaps we can start a thread on the questions to ask Yoo. The fact that this man is mentoring, advising, teaching, and professing to young law students, I find abhorrent.
People tend to snicker when I suggest we are going to get to find the answer to you implied question out in the not so distant future.
I rather think over a million dead Iraqi’s will require some response from the EU and others, including us, besides….
Oh, George moved to Paraguay.
I saw Jonathan Turley argue against prosecuting Yoo. Turley did, however, make a distinction between an erroneous opinion and a false opinion. With the omission of ‘Youngstown’ Yoo is clearly making a FALSE OPINION. He is therefore criminally complicit with the torture that his opinions led to.
Wow, I wish I had written that!
Here’s a link to Cornell’s case page that doesn’t require a login.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/sup…..79_ZS.html
Here’s a pinpoint to the “zone of twilight” line:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/sup…..tml#pg_636
And the caption should be “Youngstown Sheet & Tube” but you probably realized that already.
A most ReichWing frame.
The University is on thin ice with this I believe although I’ve aready gotten some comments saying that You is protected by his right of free speech and that as a ‘liberal’ I should be aware of that and STFU. To which I replied:
But hey I’m a notorious hard ass banned from more than one site because I won’t kiss administrator ass re: Barry the Clown and other controversial subjects.
We’ve been screaming ourselves blue for 7 years and I can say the tide is turning fast in our favor … keep at it …
That would mean that Bush should be a teacher. No one wants that.
Wasn’t that what he was doing on 9/11? and we know how well that turned out.
Heh…..you got that right!
how can the military commissions act have any merit,when it was written by the same people who committed these atrocities?
I was saying we were in trouble the day the SCOTUS crowned GWB as president… I just did not realize just how much trouble we were in for…. IMPEACH the lying bastard..
I’m not seeing a clear cut criminal case under US law (international law, maybe)–but the disbarment thing may have some merit. Also the hounding him out of teaching thing.
It is important to completely discredit and disavow his work which does NOT reflect American values or, evidently American law
He is licensed in Pennsylvania, but not California. there have always been a few law professors that are not admitted to a bar; that is not that unheard of.
If the Federalist Society is shown to be a club with the goal of undermining the US Constitution (which is what promoting an overly strong executive branch does), then its members should be removed from the SCOTUS.
Imagine the next President appointing 3 or even 4 SC Justices. That would do a lot to guide the USA back into a post-Magna Carta state. (Assuming the next President is not McCain.)
Reading about the DOJ firings, I ran across a Fed Soc father who got his Fed Soc daughter appointed as USA for California. In all the inbreeding, it makes one wonder of the Fed Soc was partially responsible for the DOJ purge as well as Rove’s adventures in Alabama and Mississippi …
Poifect. Criminals get the write the laws.
LHP!
BMAZ!
eCAHNomics!
I feel like such a lightweight in this crowd.
But I love being here!
Take a peek at the Book Salon we did for Supreme Conflict. The answer is yes, and you can thank as far back as Ed Meese and Robert Bork for it.
Meet the “old boys club” writ conservative…nepotism and philisophical darwinism, anyone?
Don’t how I deserve to be on that list, but thanks!
LHP — Thanks so much for doing this series of posts for us on the Yoo memo. I just could not stomach one more minute of contemplating poking someone’s eyes out as a presidential prerogative. It was taking me to a very dark place…so I appreciate you picking up the nasty ball and running with it so well. Much appreciated.
That was in my view, the perfect crime … why the Dem Congress has not impeached Bush/Cheney or ended the Iraq occupation is beyond me … esp. since they won in 2006 because of those promises …
Tekel, how goes things up there? I hope well.
Do you have a link to the PA info. And, yeah I do understand that ‘the rules’ depend on who you are….
Another point re: good law.
The entire majority opinion in Medellin (the consular rights case) is soggy with a very detailed discussion of Youngstown. Certainly no one in the dissent disputed its aplicability. Therefore — nine Supreme Court votes for the continued viability of the Youngstown paradigm.
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/…..06-984.pdf
LHP AT 95
thank you!
i am serious, i need something to say back to him……he used that argument that you mention, so i need to pursue the nuremburg angle……
PUPS–my comments at 80 and 90, i really need help with……….
this is someone i respect, i couldn’t believe he was being so callous in the pursuit of stamping out a ’threat’..this is someone i see once a month or so, like a lot, and this never came up before, i was appalled….we covered all of the bases, pakistan, afghanistan, etc……’no al=queda in iraq’ till bush brought them in, that basra is a farce…which i WON.
i mean it, this is someone who would hike miles naked in winter to help someone, and he was condoning torture. like he was feeding a baby, with a smile like it needed to be done…
that’s why i wondered if it was his military background, he was spouting it out almost as a mantra, that to save our own, anything goes. and like i said, he knows a family whose son’s throat was slit.
i believe change comes one by one, he respects me and i respect him, but when i heard this, i wanted to walk away. but i didn’t. it was heated……but when i came into the kitchen i shouted ”there’s no al-queda in iraq” and laughed, and he laughed.
but i need ammunition to straighten out his torture comments. and i couldn’t ask my parents cuz they’d go after his ass…….yeah, someone’s gotta do it.
but i need some ideas. and they have to be factual.
Immanentize! Great to see you.
Colleague of mine is planning a book on the federalist society. Can’t wait!
80 – it’s a bit like saying criminals don’t have rights. The rules aren’t there for those who them, they are for those with the integrity to follow them. Does your police force get to randomly break into homes and torture people, because they “know” who the “bad guys” are? No trials, no lawyers, no protections because someone thinks they may have “broken the law” and so shouldn’t be protected?
It’s not a question of who the other guy is – it’s a question of who we are. And you just might show him a picture of people in the mideast and ask him if he thinks George Bush can “pick out” the few “deadenders” (per Cheney) who are the terrorists. Then ask him if he thinks Bush could ask the people in the crowd, in their language, for the right kind of information to help him figure it out. Then ask him why he thinks an 18 yo from Alabama could do any better than Bush. And ask him – if we get the “wrong” guy and start torturing innocent civilians – at what point are we “unlawful” combatants?
xxox egregious.
I just can’t stay away from a Yoo discussion….
Imm!!!!!
Long time no see bra’ Where ya been? Missed you
This is silly. Youngtown was about US govt oppression of corporations. Yoo was talking about just stupid, worthless people. Corporation are important, people are not.
It’s simples, really.
I think the Altstoetter case suggests that a government lawyer can hide behind a “good faith” defense only so long, and that a consistent pattern of behavior that flies in the face of history, precedent and minimal social responsibility to one’s fellow humans can strip it from them.
The defendants were mid-level Nazi-era German government lawyers, who claimed to have no role in politics or the execution of the law. They claimed that they were only dutifully explaining the meaning of laws that were properly enacted by their lawfully constituted government in the precise manner required by those laws. The court viewed their work differently, agreeing with the prosecution that they had created an,
Like Youngstown, Altstoetter is an opinion about which Mr. Yoo should refresh his Harvard summa cum laude memory.
[All quotes from the following, emphasis added:
Reply
95 -
I think you’re wrong lhp. Not about what the Nazis did, but about the Conventions. That is what Hamdan was about – whether or not Common Article Three covered even alleged unlawful combatants and Hamdan found that it did.
Of course now, the Harry Reids and Carl Levines and Sherrod Browns have done their best to make sure that the GOP was able to push through the MCA (don’t tell me about Reid and others “voting against” when they set it up to slide through) and to try to change that, and since the GCs are not self implementing who knows where we will end up when we have a treaty that is passed as law of the land and the implementing statutory framework completely negates the treaty by any reasonable interpretation.
But still, for the time being, Hamdan is the law and Common Article III should apply. Of course, the MCA is also the law and it did what Yoo and others could not – - it made the kangaroo court determinations of the CSRTs into irrebuttable presumptions.
I don’t have a link, I saw it on a bio or CV somewhere, but I trust wherever it was. There is not a member finder function at the Pennsylvania Bar website. In fairness, there is a lot that you really don’t need a bar card to do, and teaching is among that.
LHP –
miss you too.
First, I was pursuing my own career goals. Then everything healthwise with my extended fam went down the drain, then I did some DP work amicus work in the SCt, then I got involved in a juvenile matter in that Cuba place. I am really not young enough or smart enough to stay on top of this gangs BS.
You have been working hard, in the meantime, I see….
well, i’m epu’d……..drat
lhp
i suggested to him that he read the yoo memo being discussed, and if he couldn’t find it, that i would email it.
people like him are so important to get on board, he is involved in so many groups, and a lot of them think like he does…so he said.
but at the same time he is involved in other groups where his way of thinking could taint someone who has better sense. he tones it down when around this group, but has an agenda.
so important.
someone who would do anything to help someone, yet with a grim smile said, slicing his neck, this is what they do to people, d….., they are animals.
gotta do anything i can to fight it, one person at a time.
any suggestions would help me, it’s been burning on my brain since monday night. can’t forget the look on his face when he said it.
thanks mary
i need ammo.
Closing ceremony has been canceled at Justice Herman plaza and will be held at an undisclosed location… chickenshits
whops, dood, forgot your snark tag
or would that be turbosnark tag
FunnyD
Uh-huh…..
I visited the PA bar site and gosh….whereas it took me less than 30 seconds to find the complaint form for us against a bar member in CA….
I’m unable to find same for PA.
I guess that extra 150 years of ‘progress’ back there in the original 13 has been put to good use, eh?
I’ll keep digging and if he’s licensed there I’ll find it and if not I will be studying up on the rules governing employment in the UC system.
Do ya all think being a big, big fan of crushing children’s testicles will matter to the UC bureaucracy?
Read this, read all of it, click the buttons
http://www.law.umkc.edu/facult…..oetter.htm
You will have more ammo than you know what to do with
Especially read the “furher principal” section and tell me if you don’t see the exact same reasoning Yoo uses. “the Furher can do anything and it is unconstitutional to reveiw it or try to limit it.” Read, it’s all you need
dmac, the best argument I’ve found with wingers is appealing to their sense of fairness. How do we want other countries treating OUR people? [Re the Geneva Conventions]
Shorter version: My/our morality is not dependent on the morality (or lack thereof) of others.
Here’s an example that may get through to him — His pride in being a Navy guy is probably due to the fact that the Navy has a long proud heritage of things like defending the nation, of fighting when called upon, of doing its duty, of not giving up the ship, etc. NONE OF THAT is dependent on what OTHERS do — not the Army, the Marines, the Russians, or al Qaida — just what the Navy does.
It’s the same for the DOJ and the Geneva Convention. We ought to act in a moral fashion toward those we imprison, not because of who they are but because of who we are.
For instance
“Water boarding is Torture … Period”
http://smallwarsjournal.com/bl…..o/#c000852
I agree with you about Hamdan, but even Hamdan does not treat unlawful combatants the same as POWs.
In the ”Judges case” the Nuremberg court found these technical differences did not allow for torture and murder no matter what the status of the victim, including enemy combatant. It take things out of the realm of hypertechnical distinctions in status and back to common sense humane treatment of other humans
112 – I’d be hoping for conspiracy to solicit and cover up violations of the War Crimes Act (especially with allowing bounties to be paid for the turnover of then non-combatants and the subsequent shipment of those purchased out of country – the Geneva Conventions free standing recites that as a grave breech).
From everything that has been said so far, the picture that emerges is of Bush giving orders that were deliberately vague at times – although other more direct orders may exist as well – and people in both the military and the intelligence services initially refusing those orders – - – until they got an OLC opinion giving them grace.
It’s like, “A lawyer walks into a bar, 8 guys have a woman down on the pool table, but just waiting. One of the guys walks over to the lawyer and says, hey can you give us an opinion that its ok to gang bang this bitch as long as she doesn’t say no?
YooLawyer sits down, writes out an opinion that it is ok on the back of a napkin, and the guys who had been waiting gag her and rape her. Lawyer sits back to enjoys his pink lady and later says, “hey, I thought I was right and I didn’t join in”The OLC opinions here were not opinions on Bush’s orders and directions; they were opinions because people refused to follow those orders and directions without the opinions.
I’ve always wondered what Mary Jo White gave Scheuer when he went to her asking for legal support for the Clinton renditions for Egyptian torture. No one ever seems to ask for that, even though Scheuer is in print as consulting with her.
BTW – you managed to drag Imm out of the blogwork lhp!! IMMpressed I am.
I’m not so sure you are being fair to the Chinese. A society that experienced repeated periods of stability lasting for centuries could not have survived in the absence of a stable means of adjudicating disputes. I don’t know what those means were, and I suspect that a lot of scholarship remains to be done on them. But it is inconceivable that they lacked magistrates following a settled body of precedent.
I think Yoo is just a garden-variety authoritarian. No need to bring race or culture into it.
nor does a president admit to torture, nor does he claim he can overwrite law with a statement, nor does habeas corpus get suspended
I cannot believe yoo would write such an opinion unless he were given a wink and a nod that his opinion would be upheld
the opinion is depraved and he knows it, it is base and he knows it, it is pedestrian and he knows it
it’s not as if he is in the dark about how badly his opinion stands against precedence
what do you mean really really silly loosheadprop?
what would the ramifications be?
I was talking about Laura Parsky, daughter of GOP donor Gerry Parsky.
She is a member of the Fed Soc.
She is a graduate of UC Berkeley’s Boalt Hall School of Law.
She was brought to the Criminal Division by Chertoff.
She was nominated by Schwarzenegger to replace retiring Judge Terry Scott.
BINGO
john, the term ‘waterboarding” itself is self defeating to us
it is too benign, do we call “removing your fingerails one at a time “restrained manicure”?
hanging from the toes, “foot suspension”?
castration, ‘reproctive supresion”?
water boardingfinger nailsreproductivesuppressionwater boarding is drowning someone until they heave bile, reviving them until their gag reflexes have subdued and then drowning them again until they heave bile, it is killing them and reviving them, it is a host of various forms of torture not withstanding the method commonly described
Hey, dmac
hang in there with your friend. Looks like you’ve gotten some good advice here. That you’re torn up about this speaks volumes about your own humanity and deep commitment to maintaining relationships even in the face of staggering wrong-headedness. My hat is sincerely off to you, and to him, for recognizing the good and the good faith in each other.
The only “advice” I’d add is to remember that the issue isn’t entirely factual for either of you. Lots of strong and messy feelings are involved, and rightly so. Laura Doty’s might be a good brain to pick vis a vis the psychological aspects of this if you see her around the Lake.
FWIW it might not hurt to tell this guy over coffee or something some of what you’ve said here. Or letting him know that disagreeing with him on torture/Geneva Conventions doesn’t mean you disregard his grief over losing a buddy in such a brutal way.
Just MHO. Sort of brain storming.
FunnyDiva
Good Bonhoeffer quote; he was hung by the Nazis for his outspoken views, including those on the “secular church built on the twin foundations of Hitler and the Nazi Party. An expression of excess party loyalty that seems lost on today’s GOP.
I think Bonhoeffer had much in common with Niemoller, who survived the war and is credited, perhaps apocryphally, with the lines,
http://prayerfoundation.org/di…..ticism.htm
A game of dominoes the administration and its followers seems determined to replay.
151 -
I believe it used to be called water torture. That still works for me. I’m old enough to be old fashioned.
“Torture – The Guantanamo Guidebook”
google video
THANK YOU ALL for your feedback, this isn’t a stupid person, a very compassionate person, and i am still shocked by what he said.
there can be quite a mix within one person.
i tried different mixes of argument appealing to human things, but they weren’t working.
thank you.
he matters to me, i don’t want to be dismissive with how he feels, he was so strongly placed in what he stated, i want to dismantle it, bit by bit, and i will need a few different ways to go about that.
any more would be appreciated, i will go over what you all say.
egr–it was at the ’m’ elks.
You should read Jan Crawford Greenberg’s book–it was a recent Book Salon book.
She explains the influence that public opinion has had on the court in some instances. They are people, just like us. They feel an obligation to reflect the will of the people with in the limits of the legal interpretation.
You should also read Judge Robert Carter’s book about Brown v. Bd. of Ed and the influence of public opinion on getting the Court to change it’s mind about “seperate but equal”
I know. I used direct quotes of the article’s title
Too lazy today to try to frame
Yoo’ Bar registration is active in Pennsylvania.
Y’all who couldn’t find him, were looking in the wrong place. I’m not going to tell you where the right place is, for a really good reason. Someone starts an ethics proceeding now, they’re likely to either screw it up, or lose, and then we lose our chance at Yoo.
Frankly, I’d recommend against starting an ethics complaint at this juncture, for the simple reason that it is way too easy for a defendant to get it dismissed on procedural or technical grounds, and then when someone comes back and complains about the same grounds later, with a well-developed complaint, the defendant attorney can argue “res judicata”, i.e,, that the grounds for that complaint were docketed, investigated and dismissed previously and he should not be held to account for something that was already tossed out. Sort of “double jeopardy”.
I know, it sucks, but I’ve defended enough of these to know it’s a lot easier to make the allegation than it is to prove it, and a lot easier to get them tossed when they are not something objective, like stealing client funds. We had this discussion back when Scooter got disbarred – he was disbarred because of a criminal conviction. An objective ground.
Yoo’s wrongdoing is entirely (or apparently so) subjective. And ethics police hate that, because it deals with opinions.
Wait on it. OK? He and his license will be ripe for the picking, but not today and not anytime soon. But they will be ripe.
I think that’s the argument that most elegantly and completely deflates the credibility – the verisimilitude – of the administration’s torture edifice.
It doesn’t matter what they do; what matters is what we do. As Scott Horton’s recent series suggests, torture has not been legal in a western democracy since the late 17th century. And I thought Shrub only wanted to take us back to 1880’s, no-taxes-or-regulations-on-the-rich, Robber Baron America.
funny diva—thanks, you’re always so insightful…….yes, i did say, c—-, that is so disturbing, i can’t believe that you really believe that……that’s when he stated his case, i said co—– i don’t know how to respond to that, how can you say that about another person, you care so much about people, it doesn’t mesh with what i know about you.
that’s when he described what they do to our’own’…….that’s why i wondered if the military stuff enters in. it’s personal for him. i need facts.
thanks.
he’s a good guy, i was shocked. he loves me to death, he and his wife….we differ on things, but we always banter about it, like friends…….i know if i give him facts he will listen to me. and i him.
Think Progress:
What Earl and LHP said.
87 – great comment. I think on this part:
he was trying to play ketchup to Eric Posner and Jack Goldsmith, who had been making all the same noises in general (Goldsmith has yammered on and one and on about how we “need” to be able to buy kids in Pakistani markets and have a place like GITMO to send them for some no-trial torture and human experimentation) Yoo made the mistake of too many other ‘believers’ of BS; he was ready to really implement the crap they were tossing around as self-entertaining intellectual exercises – ginned up to make “liberals” nutz. It’s no wonder Goldsmith read some of the memos with a pretty sick feeling and worked to try to retract them. In large part, Yoo was putting taking Posner’s and Goldsmith’s arguments to their conclusion. P & G had a conceptual framework that international law only means what the President wants it to mean and in particular if you are the most powerful nation on the earth, it only means what a corrupt frat boy with a neverending need for the thrill of power and the gratitude of those over whom he can feel superior decides it means.
They’re right, but what I said at 159.
Wait on it – he’s not yet ripe fruit, and if people go after him too early, he’ll have a better chance of beating it. He’ll get ripe, but it will take time, even now.
Let’s look at this again after he defies the Conyers subpoena.
In your experience, how, pray tell, can you distinguish a case that is ripe from one that is still maturing?
Torch leaving…to the airport… chickens…
and funnydiva–
yeah, he knew we were still buds when i hollered across the kitchen and looked through the shelves at him after i yelled=-=there is no al-queda in iraq!
he laughed and shook his head……then called me back there to give me his amish potato soup to take to my ’librul friends’…….i just don’t want him living under a delusion that this is ok. i’m not gonna let him do that.
he will be terribly hurt when he wakes up and realizes what he condoned. cuz he believes in it. wholly.
i want to be the one to break it to him.
that’s really what it’s all about for me.
like i said, i wanna hug him and tell him there is no santa clause.
cuz he believes there is.
that’s why i need factual ammo, cuz that he will read and listen to. he’s a smart man. he knows info when he hears it.
but this court has an agenda, they are idiologues.
let’s take alito, when a corporation presents a case he finds for that corporation, when an individual uses those same arguements against a corporation in a differant but similar case save for the roles, he finds for the corporation yet again
and don’t forget, they have their “base” to agree with them, they have corporate media to frame for them
there will be no public outcry, it will come from “the liberals” and that’s it
a citizen, you have a typo or two, I don’t know if you can edit
also, I am not certain looseheadprop is male or female…should ask I think
typo here a citizen;
you missed the “n”
156 – Here’s one more.
Give him this story:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..940199.ece
and see what he thinks should happen to the people who kidnapped this man and abused him for years.
Ahmed Errachidi was not taken on a battlefield. He’s a bipolar man who was sold to the US by with the anonymous claim that he ws the “general” of an AQ training camp in July, 2001.
So for years the US treated him like that – even though he was mentally impaired by his bipolar disorder. They kept him in isoloation for years and for years wouldn’t let anyone know the “charges” against him. Charges that, once a lawyer got his name (remember when the US wouldn’t release them?) and followed up, were beyond ludicrous. He was making souffles in Mayfair when he was supposed to be the big “general” There are many more stories about him – almost none in the US press – and how, once it was clear we’d been holding and torturing a chef for years for no reason, we shipped him off in the middle of the night to try to get Morocco to take him and lock him up and torture him some more, but despite some of their earlier cooperation torturing for us, with the British press breathing down their necks they just released him too.
Ask your friend how it could possibly be ok to do what we did to that man.
Yupper.
Remember, half the reason why the wingnuts have so much success is that they never give up. We must never give up, either.
DoS has a brand spanking new “Tearrist” List
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/08/103392.htm
Funny, Abu Nidal Org is first. Funny because he’s been dead for about five years. And the MEK is 29. That’s funny too because they’re the ones the Shrubbies are using for intelligence in Iran
Just got home so I’m late to the discussion. Wanting to get MSM to notice this must have gone out by osmosis:
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/con…..d0409.html
pakistan,pakistan,what a scene that was.They got rid of all the lawyers and judges that didn’t agree with their pov.
While this is deep in EPU land now and isn’t specifically on point -
a big w00t to the AP and Horton and the people who worked so hard on this one
Pulitzer prize winning photographer Bilal Hussein, who US forces have done everything but try to bury alive, was just ordered released. Of course, since the Bush forces are involved, he hasn’t actually been released, but still, it’s something.
yes they did
yoo really has to be impeached, other non official lawyers writing against his opinion do not carry the weight of a president defering to his opinion
if the president is not legally rebuked, (impeachment), if yoo is not rebuked, (disbarrment), then his opinion will carry weight
I disagree, and to speak to another possible criticism, the critique of John Yoo is not racist. It is based on the differences between traditional western and Chinese views of power, legitimacy and conflict resolution. I think Yoo’s torture memos, in unspoken homage, adhere to the latter.
The traditional Confucian norm was that power legitimates whoever holds it. The emperor is supreme and is, therefore, always right. By extension, throughout society superiors are always right vis a vis those subordinate to them. Obedience to hierarchy was chosen as the social norm through which social order is maintained.
It worked in its way for a large, densely populated country; almost perversely, it also legitimized the winners in occasionally frequent regime changes, an expression of a winner take all attitude. Losers in regime change contests, and in any consequential challenge to established power at any scale, lost their heads. To me, that’s the unspoken philosophy underpinning Yoo’s memos on torture.
The notion that an ordinary person could appeal to a judiciary, created by the state but independent from its executive authority, on any issue that conflicts with the executive, and win, is a western concept. The assumptions on which that social and legal equation rests would be nonsensical to traditional Confucianist thinking. It would also be dangerous, since the distribution of power and legitimacy inherent in that equation threatens those who hold the most of it.
There are other and more immediate explanations for Yoo’s opinions and their place among the building blocks of the Cheney/Bush torture edifice. And, no doubt, the political matrix within Yoo worked, and probably his aspirations and intentions, were complex. But I think it’s a valid perspective.
Good one, the giveaway was “I don’t know what those means were”… too
much reflexive culture correctness in the so called logic of the critique
offered of your more informed view… plus Yoo is a spoiled overachiever
punk of the first stripe.
Your advice may be sound and tactically correct, but I think the point discussed here is that Yoo’s “wrongs” were not “subjective”; they were objectively wrong to all but his political cohort. That makes his behavior, and whether it can be successfully challenged in a formal proceeding, a political as well as legal question, but it doesn’t make his wrongs subjective.
It just means that those who benefited from his advice, and who currently run the US Government, liked it and currently choose to protect him from the consequences of his actions because doing so protects them from their own. It’s a practical issue to contend with in making any challenge to Yoo’s license to practice law stick; it doesn’t make the objections to his behavior academic.
That is good news about Bilal Hussein
—–
Just wondering, from neophyte pov, I mentioned Little v Barreme above, and have a question: Am I that far off in thinking that that has anything to do with this post? What I have in mind is a quote from this Questia article
Isn’t this like a first year Con Law requirement? You know to know not only Youngstown, but Little v Bareme, or even Bas v Tingy, or Ex Parte Milligan or …?
“You know to know not …” ???
Sorry
Where’s the edit button? I need the edit button
OK must get some food now
I think Alfred Hitchcock’s Rope, or Patrick Hamilton’s original stage play, Rope’s End, should be required viewing by the next administration’s DOJ. An elegant example of how the arrogance of power leads to corruption, even (or especially) among brilliant Connecticut and Manhattanite Ivy Leaguers.
FYI, New new FDL post upstairs.
Just to be clear, I believe that John Yoo’s ancestors may originally have come from Korea, not China, but as Chinese norms for ensuring social order were once adopted throughout the Far East, I think that’s irrelevant. The question is what political norms inform his legal views.
bravo! bravo!
I agree, that is one nice precedence form the earl of huntington
but in the end, yoo must be disbarred, his writings must be lawfully rebuked
Yup, I think that says a lot. Yoo’s ambition, his desire to be one of the boys on the inside, and that he was pretty green in the fine art of politics, DC style, would have been attributes the more seasoned Addington could readily manipulate to his own ends. And did.
it seems I have been heard
uhyup
now let’s see if our lawyers can take the wheel and help to end this criminal destruction of our constitution and the reign of terror
Fixed it and thanks to all for their input.
Poll currently shows: 100% in favor of Yoo’s disbarment….
Which would be great if we knew he actually belongs to a bar somewhere or has a license to practice. Next up….
Grounds for dismissal by the UC system.
Do I hear conflict of interest?
this thread is open for 24 hours-i received many things to look into, and i will, any more suggestions i will add to that list.
one person at a time who cares, he is someone who cares and believes in torture.
can’t quite comprehend that, i need to convince him.
I saw where to reply but I did not see where to vote
Given the subsequent decisions construing Youngstown, it would be difficult to construct any argument that would pass the laugh test. Of course, that isn’t really an issue for Yoo.
I’m telling you, yoo is not an idiot, he knows how bad his writings are, he has been given a wink and a nodND they will sta, this is the only excuse
It sounds like you’re going to have to start from scratch. He’s obviously been exposed to only one point of view and since he probably hangs out with his peers, his views are reinforced by them. I would start by asking him to look at the world through the eyes of a Muslim from that part of the world and go through the litany of invaders of their lands since the Middle Ages, particularly since WWI. I think once he understands the history he’ll be easier to turn. If you’ve read Fisk’s “The Great War For Civilisation” you’ll have a wealth of information to glean from.
ah, got it, I thought the poll box was an advertisment, I subconcoulsy don’t even see those boxes that look like adds
voted
Hey, dmac
thanks for the extra info. sounds like you’re doing everything as right as humanly/humanely possible. it may be the waiting to re-connect that’s not sitting well. I know that anxiety all too well myself.
I’m really glad you shared your situation today. I’ve learned a lot reading the legal-eagles’ responses, and also feel like I’ve seen a good example of how to handle similar situations should they arise.
Anyway, you’re firmly on the right track, IMO. And maybe the time-lag between conversations will turn out to be a good thing.
FunnyD
Hey bmaz, thanks for the shout-out. Been super super busy- exams coming up in about 2 weeks. And we’ve been doing this:
http://thelegality.com
which has gone a long way to satisfying my bloggy craving. I do miss the old days at TNH though. I read most of ew’s stuff on my RSS feed now, almost never click through to post a comment anymore.
Nope. Look up “lawful enemy combatant” “unlawful enemy combatant” (or leave out the ‘enemy’ part) and “enemy combatant”.
Which one doesn’t fit?
Yoo emigrated from Korea as a child. His history degree from Harvard, his law degree from Yale, his studies for the Pennsylvania bar, as well as his teaching experiences at UCB should have mitigated the Asiatic Confucian norm that power legitimizes those that hold it.
Yoo apparently did maintain the “Obedience to hierarchy ” more, but the rational is much closer at hand: ambition. he was such a good servant IMO because it is the way to get ahead in a Republican administration – U.S.A Mary Beth Bucanan (and probably countless others) fell into the same trap.
I really hope you are right.
Thanks for a great post. It’s a million years since I read Youngstown in law school and past time for a reminder. On Yoo, one of my daughters went to Boalt and had him as her con law professor. I rang her the day the memo came out and said, as an alum, you’ve got to make your voice heard on this. Now my daughter is as progressive as one can be, but she was reluctant to do so for two reasons. First, she thought he was a good con law professor and did not impose his own views on the Constitution in class. Second, she thought that if views expressed out of class were used to deprive one right wing professor of tenure, fifty progressive professors would be deprived of tenure for the same reason. The second reason seems fairly cogent to me, but I don’t know. Is it a slippery slope?
Did the liberal professors have the power or ever write anything to promote the idea that the executive branch is allowed to order torture, not in the abstract as an argument, but as something that would become practice? I thought not.
In principle, your daughter has a good argument. I think the distinction is that Yoo is not being criticized or condemned for expressing his political beliefs outside the classroom in a way that his political opponents find offensive. If that were the standard, academics would lose their jobs faster than McCain can flip flop.
Nor is it that Yoo represented a client many find offensive, as criminal lawyers sometimes do, or that he acted offensively in zealously representing his clients viewpoints or interests. Had he done that, it would be unfair to confuse his clients behavior or views with his.
It’s that Yoo’s actions as a government lawyer are allegedly criminal and brought both the law and his government into disrepute. Mr. Yoo is not simply exercising his First Amendment rights, he has corruptly practiced law to enable criminal conduct.
Obviously, there’s a proof problem; some of those are unproven allegations. But his published memos go a long way toward meeting that burden.
Good points. I don’t think it needs to be either or, and I wouldn’t underestimate the pressure of history and tradition. In Yoo’s case, I would say the reasons are cumulative, all in favor of unbridled executive authority. It is, however, the kind of authority exercised in fact by South Korean heads of state through the 1960’s.
““Can there be such a thing as a restraining order that keeps a president from being able to issue pardons?”
No. The power to pardon is a plenary power spelled out in Article 2.
Jack Balkin notes the ABC News article claiming that torture methods were approved at the highest levels inside the White House and tries to dampen expectations for domestic or international war crimes trials.
Even a Democratic administration would be loathe, he observes, to use up scarce political capital in attempting to indict or prosecute anyone in the Bush administration. Foreign governments that might be tempted to do so would have to confront persuasive efforts, considerably weightier than Chile’s, that indicting and trying former senior American officials is not consistent with a good longterm relationship with the United States.
I think those are fair points. But if a Clinton or Obama administration follows Jack’s logic, I think it needs to do at least two things. One, investigate the hell out of the most prominent claims. No doubt several will reveal domestic crimes within the administration, Congress and the private sector that cry out for criminal prosecutions. Rapes and murders by private contractors in Iraq and billion dollar frauds against the US taxpayer come to mind. Selected political prosecutions, clearly beyond any reasonable understanding of prosecutorial discretion, are another.
Two. Those dozens of investigations that do not proceed to prosecution or trial will nevertheless document extensive government excess, which will provide adequate justification, if any were needed, to undo much of what this administration has wrought.
That’s what Obama or Clinton should focus on (not forgetting two active wars, a budget deficit bigger than Cheney’s ego, a possible financial meltdown, etc.). The list is as endless as this administration’s excesses. It should include revoking much or all of the reprehensible MCA and other fig leaves for this administration’s lawlessness; closing our secret prisons, most of whose inmates should be set free with apologies and reparations, with others going to trial or being set free for time served because no credible case can be presented that does not rely on torture-derived evidence; revising or canceling hundreds of outsourcing contracts; and replacing probably dozens of Executive Orders and OLC opinions based on bad law.
The littlest of those is sure to bring screams of outrage from the Orrin Hatches and Matt Drudges and Grover Norquists. Democrats should toughen their hides, and polish up their counter-PR machine. They’ll need it.
Well, MacRanger has the answer:
Macranger
April 10th, 2008 at 8:19 am
2
Amateur lawyers at FDL aside, the opinion in Youngstown v. Sawyer, which was the Government’s attempt to o avert a nation-wide strike of steel workers in April 1952, isn’t even remotely similar in scope. Additionally subsequent rulings notwithstanding the War Powers act give the President authority.
Sorry, no dice.
“”
This must be one smart a$$!!
http://www.macsmind.com/wordpr…..succeed-2/