What do you get with a decision to charge and convict a sitting Democratic governor in Alabama when you add in a dash of "the math," with a hefty dollop of "ends justifies whatever means necessary?"
What if you spice it up with a nervous USAtty who is willing to do whatever is necessary to avoid answering questions under oath? If you add in a witness that was never interviewed by investigators who could have corroborated Siegelman’s defense? (See 60 Minutes’ additional interview entitled "Harris Testimony Overlooked.")
What if you add in a hefty helping of additional current political intrigue in the form of federal subpoenas and heat directed at Democratic members of the Alabama legislature — brought by the same USAtty who pushed the Siegelman prosecution?
For that matter, you have Rove refusing to answer questions under oath before the Judiciary Committee. But Rove did say to 60 Minutes that he "never talked to the Department of Justice about Siegelman. I never talked to anyone at the White House about Siegelman."
Now, because this is Karl we’re talking about, I’m just not content to let that stand as definitive, because Mr. Parsing My Words Razor Thin left some gaping wide holes there that need further questioning:
– Did you talk with anyone in Alabama? At the USAtty’s offices? At the Alabama Republican party? Among your pals in Alabama GOP politics, many of whom you worked for early in your political ops career? Among political operatives — in Alabama or any other state, through whom you may have laundered a suggested nugget of wisdom about potential politically advantageous targets?
– Did you e-mail anyone at the WH or the DOJ about this? Using either your RNC blackberry or some other method of IM or e-mail communication? Any method of communication whatsoever, do share.
– Did you speak or e-mail or otherwise contact or discuss with anyone at the RNC about this? Or your KStreet pals? Or anyone tangentially related to Republican politics that could pass on a message?
– When you say you never talked with the "Department of Justice," what precisely does that mean to you? Because "DOJ" is sort of a catch-all amorphous designation which allows for a whole lot of slippery around the edges.
And that’s just for starters. I’m just getting warmed up … and so are a whole lot of other folks who are questioning the growing evidence of Rove’s role in this mess. Again, via Scott Horton:
…as Rove knows, that issue was covered exhaustively in the investigator’s examination and by several national journalists, not just CBS.
Juicy little nugget. In this case, all roads appear to lead to Rove.
(YouTube of 60 Minutes piece on Siegelman from last night.)
Related posts:
- Washington Post: Rove More Involved in US Attorney Firings Than He Claims
- Karl Rove: That’s Why They Call It a Limited Hang-Out
- Jim Cooper and Karl Rove Talking Health Care in Nashville This Saturday
- Connecting The Eyeliner Dots On the Rove Role In DOJ Firings?
- Karl Rove May Not Care About Muslims’ Opinion of the US, But We Should
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Christy!
And the testimony from Harriet Miers is . . .
Christy when you met with Conyers did he say anything about Miers?
Yea Christy!
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if there was a concerted investigative effort by someone in the MSM to get to the bottom of this?
I know there are an overwhelming number of other issues out there for them to pursue. However, it’s time to take down bullies like Rove. Watching that happen might empower people with information to come forward.
Digg it Christy!
All roads lead to Rove…but do any of those roads have any chance of forcing him to answer questions under oath and on public record?
Boxturtle (My bet is not…and BushCo will pardon him first if there is)
Christy’s got to run to the vet this morning, so I promised her I’d fill in for her here. However, so far all I can add is … yeah, Christy! What she said!
J’accuse !
Rove will walk free with a blanket pardon that’s already prepared. Sadly, he won’t be the only one.
Pardons all ’round. IIRC, Dubya’s got a method in the works that will pardon himself too.
Miss Piggy would never get himself in front of a judiciary committee.
Since he’s parsing words maybe we could add he never talked to anyone about Siegelman in the WH, but maybe when the preznit was breaking brush at the ranch?
Am I the only person who thinks the presidents power of pardon needs limits? In my lifetime, the only president who didn’t abuse it was Carter and I may just not be remembering all that he did.
Boxturtle (I’m getting used to the idea that BushCo will get away with it, but it still makes my stomach growl)
What is so amazing about the Siegelman case is that it happened out in the open over a considerable length of time and received either no or perfunctory coverage and investigation by the mainstream media. Even the 60 Minutes piece came very late in the process. If Rove had worked in the Clinton White House and this had happened not only would the press be all over it like flies on a turdblossom but Republicans in Congress would have demanded (and gotten) a Special Prosecutor to look into not only the Siegelman case but everything else Rove did in the White House (and think about what everything in his case means: pretty much what went on in the White House).
That’s easy. If McCain steals the election, his first act will be to pardon the Decider, Cheney, etc. Otherwise, Bush resigns just before Jan 20, 2009 and President Cheney pardons him. Of course, Bush will have pardoned Cheney as his last act as President.
Our president is locked into the White House for nine more months- living midst the growing piles of shit he has excreted- and giving an occaisional speech about how great things smell.
There will be no prosecution of Rove or any other top administration official as long as Clusterfuck holds office- and he will issue blanket pardons on his way out the door.
Still, there should be a way to raise holy hell about this that’s loud enough to get past the news that Hillary lied about being shot at- I just don’t know what it is.
It’s coming
It’s coming soon.
I don’t know when, but it’s coming.
You just know that Karl Rove is going to get a little note from the Senate Judiciary Committee, inviting him to come in for a chat. “The honor of your presence is requested . . .”
Or maybe it will worded a bit more strongly: “You are hereby commanded to appear . . .”
I really want to see the C-SPAN video of Rove, just after he is sworn in by Patrick Leahy. My favorite part will be where Rove is asked his very first question, and he replies with those time-honored words “I choose to exercise my Fifth Amendment rights and refuse to answer, on the grounds that I might incriminate myself.”
Actually, I would not be surprised if Rove didn’t take the fifth. After all, he DID go to college for I believe seven years so he’s obviously smarter than Leahy and just KNOWS he can lie better than Leahy can cross examine him. /s
Will the Peanut weigh in on this? Her last post was quite enlightening.
Wikipedia only lists three Carter pardons. Of note, he pardoned Vietnam era draft dodgers. He also commuted G. Gordon Liddy’s sentence. Nothing abusive and no personal gain for Carter or his family in the list.
Here’s a question. Let’s say that the congress is planning on additional democratic seats come January of ‘09. Let’s say they’re waiting until Bush is out of office before prosecuting these criminals (under a new Dept. of Justice.)
Can Bush issue pardons for people who have not been convicted of any crime? If an investigation has begun, but is not concluded, can Bush pardon? Can only convicted criminals be pardoned?
I believe rove would lie in front of Leahy, and smirk. Yup, smirk that psychopatic smirk Kristol displays every sunday morning.
Can he be privy to a ‘blanket pardon’ if he has not been charged . . . or if ongoing investigation/prosecution has not been completed with our fearless leader (hopefully) leaves office next January?
22-jinx!
Why should Rove even bother to RSVP? No show-no consequences.
Nixon got a blanket pardon from Ford without being charged.
You don’t have to be convicted to get a pardon. Richard Nixon comes to mind as the most immediate example.
Did you talk to the President about Siegleman outside of the White House? On board Air Force One, perhaps?
Didn’t the preznit refuse to let Rove testify for the US attorney firings? Same as Miers? I forsee an empty chair.
Rove could not be pardoned if Bush/McBush is not president when he is convicted.
The presidential power to pardon is without limits, except, perhaps, in the case that it can be proven that it’s exercise was used to cover up other crimes involving the president.
I did not talk aboard the plane
I did not talk out in the rain
I did not mention Siegal Man
(I lie because I know I can)
yeppers
Bush 41 gave pardon to an indicted Caspar Weinberger
There’s some untested legal questions about that. One could argue that the articles of impeachment, which were drawn up at the time of the pardon, were, in fact, the indictment, and therefore Nixon was charged.
clapclapclap !
That just doesn’t seem right. This needs to be changed, pronto! (Under this congress it doesn’t seem possible though.)
makes the 09 spoils that much higher………
And he probably used those seven years well, digging into Dem party trash cans an all.
The only thing that might be untested is the impeachemnt part. Bush can pardon his pals to his hearts content.
Since impeachment is off the table, he can pardon himself as well.
Miers, Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten, and Rove all refused to appear. The SJC voted to approve a contempt citation against Rove and Bolten in mid-December, but the whole Senate has yet to act.
(I’m guessing that they left Miers out, because as WH Counsel, she raises all kinds of atty-client privilege issues as well as executive privilege issues. Rove and Bolten, OTOH, simply (!) raise executive privilege issues.)
Yeah, and you don’t even have to be indicted or otherwise charged. President can pardon for offenses as yet uncharged.
If you don’t think Rove is laughing his ass off how Harriett Miers and Josh Bolton Have been walking around with their thumbs on their noses you can guarantee hysterics over the thought of him getting a subpoena.
Public enemy number one IMO, Osama Bin Laden can take his turn later.
To be clear: impeachment is a political action, not a judicial one. The only penalty for conviction in an impeachment trial (conducted by the legislative branch, not the judicial branch) is removal from office.
Presidential pardons address only criminal actions that would be (or have been) adjudicated by the judicial branch.
A presidential pardon also cannot set aside any civil verdicts resulting from criminal behavior.
The Bu’ush DOJ will never act on a Rove contempt citation, so how will they enforce it?
With no indictment do you have to specify what the pardon is for or is it get out of jail free for any and all offenses, specified or unspecified? It seems there are two answers — bring indictments now starting with the lesser offenses and save the bigger for after Jan. 20th or impeach Bush & Cheney now so they can’t pardon, a course of action which would solve a lot of problems.
Good morning! Getting back into the swing of things after a brief vacation to the mountains. The mountains and the big Navada sky puts us miserable little humans in perspective in the greater scheme of things. Back to people reality and the mess we make of things.
60 Minutes probably didn’t come up with the Siegelman investigative report on their own. Someone had to bring it to their attention and may have assisted with information. I’m sure there were many people eager to have this looked into so how did Rove and his DOJ buddies think they could get away with sending Siegelman to the big house? I know arrogant men can be stupid
It may have been intended to intimidate others but Rove and the other WH nasties are not invincible. When you create so many enemies, not only do you face legal justice (even if you think you have them in your back pocket) but you have to face “village justice”. Village justice is never pretty.
The WH is currently stockpiling pardons preprinted with Bush’s signature. They don’t want the little fellow to get writer’s cramp.
If Rove did everything (IRT to Siegelman) that we think he did, what would the crime be? What would he actually be indicted for?
And, when it comes to Spitzer, that stinks too, but did anyone do anything that is criminal? Is selective prosecution a crime?
I’m guessing that if (when) Dubya pardons himself it will provide an historical first. Great bit for the liberry.
John Dean and Robert Mardian say – good luck with that !
Arguably the W admin has been responsible for many more murders of innocents than OBL.
IANAL…. lol but the plot thickens….. [edited by mod]
No indictments required
4 out of 5 historians agree, tastes like chicken.
So, if someone has a basement stuffed with corpses of people he has murdered that no one yet knows about, the president can simply issue a blanket pardon and that person can never be prosecuted?
Yes.
One other limitation (I would suspect) on presidential pardons is they can not be issued for future crimes. (Although I’ve read a couple of sci-fi stories where this is the way certain extraordinary service is rewarded. )
Assuming this is correct, it might be best to wait to drag Karl, Harriett, et. al. before committees until after January. Then they could be held for purgery, obstruction, etc. And the fun thing would be that if they had blanket pardons they could not plead the 5′th!
How about a reverse Saturday Night Massacre?
Among the articles of impeachment voted on by the House Judiciary Committee against Richard Nixon was this:
The vote was 21-17 on this article. (Two dems voted against; two GOP voted for.)
The filing of articles of impeachment against AG Mukasey might get his attention, if not action. A conviction, however, would then provide DAG Mark Filip with the same choice. (That would be a huge long shot in the Senate, BTW — I’m just sketching out the process.)
I don’t know how far down the chain you’d have to go to get someone to enforce the subpoenas . . . but the political pressure of the whole process would be immense.
Please tell me that war crimes cannot be pardoned.
larissa points out symptomatic behavior
and if you read the link – she’s dead f’in on – Powerline went after Simpson the very day of her post :D
Yep. The only remaining question (not addressed in the Nixon appeal) is whether a President can in effect indemnify people from prosecution via pardons for crimes not yet even committed. We simply assume the answer is “no.”
Then why are we even questioning the unitary executive theory? It appears there is no possibility of prosecution for crimes in the service of the executive ever. All hail King George. I assume impeachment and inherent contempt enforcement by Congress are exceptions?
war crimes are way out of the chimpy’s jurisdiction. He is hated world wide with great justification and will no doubt be charged with war crimes at some point, the sooner rather than later as far as I am concerned. Holding him in a jail cell in the Hague awaiting trial would be a super.
Not a pardon but a defense. That is essentially the thrust of the Yoo memo. OTOH it argued that unlawful combatants as defined by them had no rights so no crime could be committed against them. On the other, Yoo postulated necessity and self-defense defenses that would have sanctioned actions up to homicide in the name of protecting the homeland. So basically they did try in this area to sanction future crimes.
Of course, under the “unitary executive” doctrine (aka dictatorship), the President can do whatever the fuck he (or she) wants, whenever the fuck he (or she) wants to.
We are not a signatory and although there are ways around this, they are not politically feasible.
As I recall, someone in power now said that “impeachment is off the table”. Bush cannot pardon away impeachment, but Nancy made it so he doesn’t have to.
Back home again from the vet — had to take the stray that’s found a home to get his first shots. (I am NOT popular with him or The Peanut at the moment.) Hope everyone is having the same gorgeous spring weather that we are today…
NYMEX future price for crude oil is currently $108.99 and the Cushing spot $109.33. There is no real reason for the price jumping up like this from around $102 last week. But that’s what you get when speculators control the market. Naturally, Treasury Secretary Paulson and Fed Chair Bernanke are all over this or would be if they were asleep or complicit in it.
If Bush is worried about that, all he has to do is never leave the US. Perhaps that’s why he’s on his farewell world tour this year. He’ll just spend his days hanging around Maine or the Texas Brush Ranch, smirking away.
That mission just keeps getting accomplished!
Well, y’know, there has been a lot of excessive cynicism about the import of the recent Medellin vs Texas ruling by the Supremes (the Vienna Conventions on Consular Relations thingy), but, by a 6-3 margin they did say explicitly that the President does not have plenary power.
Gracious are you saying that one has to be a signator (sp) to fall under jurisdiction?
Lest we forget, Bush and Sun Yung Moon own many thousands of acres in Paraguay. Their land sits atop an enormous aquifer. It’s location places it outside the circulatory wind currents that would distribute nukyular radiation across the northern hemisphere. Somebody should check to see if any construction is going on yet.
It is amazing. I have a ‘flood the zone’ explanation for it. The MSM, just like this site, has a hard time staying after specific aspects of Bushco’s malfeasance, because their is so damn much of it. Do you concentrate on Iraq, DOJ, FISA, Torture, Katrina, Subprime and on and on……?
Each day brings a fresh outrage. They have literally flooded the zone to the point the system is overwhelmed.
Rendition?
You took The Peanut to the vets for shots? You need better insurance. ;-))
Good morning christy. Sunny and warm enough in Montréal.
ot – for elliot and nomolos. just left you the promised note deep in epu land on this morning’s first thread.
FYI, Turdblossom’s new digs at the beach in the Florida Panhandle are a short ride to Alabama.
What does it take to bring these guys before the Hague? Henry Kissinger has been accused of war crimes against humanity and the guy is walking around doing business as usual. What does it take to get them before the Hague?
You are a prize. Thank you. The critters are going to busy this week.
**Oldgold @74. That is why there is Hugh’s huge list
wooHOO! Thank you for posting the Congressional hearings list!
Gee, that might not tell you that this entire line of conversation is a waste of time?
Yes, Hugh’s huge list is Exhibit No. 1 in the flood the zone theory.
The MSM occupies itself with other more important news. For instance, everyone knows Britney’s troubles in detail. Psychological problems, her sister is knocked up. her ex’s name is Kevin Federline, she has two boys, etc. The MSM is running out of excuses for dropping the ball. If the bloggers can do what they do with limited resources, there is no excuse for the media to fail so consistently on every level. I maintain that the MSM is mostly complicit.
Anyone else spot this bit of depressing news from Afghanistan today: increases in drug treatment for women there, with infinitely more addiction issues for women who cannot be treated because they are not allowed to have contact with people outside their home. Some days, it’s just beyond painful to even contemplate the long-term ramifications of everything going on all at once right now, isn’t it?
yes thanks for posting the congressional hearimgs list!
OT….for those interested. Some real good investigative reporting done on the HACK Taylor Marsh….worth the read, and VERY revealing!
http://johnbrownks.blogspot.co…..marsh.html
“I maintain that the MSM is mostly complicit.”
________
Court Composers.
Christy -
“Juicy little nugget” oooh boy not so little
on a completely subjective note – I like thinking about how easily weasels like Riley jr could ‘break’ with just a little bit of sunshine
and from Scott’s links – an indication of the stench level
in Alabama no less
“Some days, it’s just beyond painful to even contemplate the long-term ramifications of everything going on all at once right now, isn’t it?”
________
Yeah. You got that right.
Article 11 paragraph 2 of the Rome Statute:
The last bit is just a limited release by a non-signatory for prosecution involving a specific matter.
btw – Governor Siegelman is scheduled to be on Abrams show tonight
btw, gang, I hear that Siegelman is going to be on Dan Abrams show this evening on MSNBC. Thought folks might like a heads up…
LOL — I owe you a root beer!
Hackworth, You are right that the MSM does squander its resources on trivial things, but like Christy notes, sometimes you just can’t take anymore. So, you find yourself watching a newscast about Britney’s panties and flooding your own zone with copious quantities of beer.
Good analogy. But Zola spoke for a movement. It took years to release Dreyfus from prison and to restore his army rank. It took an act of the French legislature to void his conviction because the army – like a Texas judge, the then pope and our current president – had defined itself as incapable of doing wrong and refused to vacate his conviction based on its obvious injustice (the spy he was confused with had admitted his guilt).
A couple of episodes on 60 Minutes and threats of Congressional questioning won’t be enough. Karl’s Way is the rock on which the current GOP has built its church. Exposing and dethroning his actions and methods will not be an easy or fair fight. An attentive Congress, devoted prosecutor and voluble blogosphere will have to make it their good war.
Pardons
letting your inner wonk run wild – (courtesy of obsidian wings commenter )-
Presidential Power Unbound: A Comparative Look at Presidential Pardon Power:
pdf warning – link
Raven – I hear the Hague brought up frequently but I cannot cite one case in which the likes of a Henry Kissinger has gone before them. Christopher Hitches wrote The Trial of Henry Kissinger building a war crimes case against Kissinger. Even his Harper’s essay on the extermination of thousands of innocent Laotian villagers didn’t stir Congress into investigating these Kissinger atrocities.
I believe in making this public at every turn so no one can ever say they didn’t know. If not for the net this would be forgotten.
I keep reading about “testify under oath” and I truly wonder why we think these scumbags (Rove at the top of the list) would tell the truth about anything under oath? I doubt that an oath to tell the truth would mean much. Us law abiding citizens would feel honor-bound to our oath. Rove? Not so much…
In the USA yea at the Hague(?) they don’t honor our lawlessness.
FYI — Prof. Erwin Chemerinsky is chatting live in the next thread about civil liberties, the rule of law, the problems of the Bush Administration — and asking why the presidential candidates aren’t addressing these issues. It’s a provocative post. So drop in and say hello and ask a question or two while we have such an expert in house. :)
Can a democratic President w/ a democratic congress sign on to this treaty?
I believe there are two issues here. First, the treaty would have to be ratified which I think takes a 2/3 vote in the Senate. Second, it would probably require enabling legislation and this would probably be subject to the 60 vote cloture requirement in the Senate.
To use your analogy, Nixon would have been “indicted” had the House voted on and approved articles of impeachment; it didn’t, Nixon resigned beforehand. The trial would have been held in the Senate. Punishment would have been limited to removal from office, unless a prosecutor had thereafter pursued other charges.
Gerald Ford foreclosed that – I think notoriously so, not least because he did not condition his full pardon on any obligation of cooperation or full disclosure. He just buried Nixon’s probable crimes, and possible widespread complicity in them, under the proverbial rug.
Two of Ford’s top aides were Rumsfeld and Cheney They are still fighting to keep Nixon in office, with statutory authority to do what he did and more, and still fighting for their fantasy victory in Vietnam. Will there be an Iraq War Memorial or one for the Constitution?
Can we indict him now?