[Please welcome Erwin Chemerinsky, the Alston & Bird Professor of Law and Political Science, Duke University, to the comments of this First Monday chat, brought to you with the invaluable help of the Alliance for Justice. As with all guest chats, please stay on topic and be polite. Any off-topic discussions should be taken to the prior thread. Thanks! -- CHS]
Why aren’t the presidential candidates speaking out against the egregious abuses of the Bush administration in fighting the war on terrorism? Last week, as a result of a Freedom of Information Act request by the American Civil Liberties Union, the infamous torture memo authored by John Yoo became public. It is an astounding document that asserts that the President has the unilateral authority to ignore statutes and treaties ratified by the United States which prohibit torture. It argues for a narrow definition of torture, which would make acceptable countless practices, such as waterboarding, commonly regarded as torture.
Yet none of the three presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, or Barack Obama discussed this or how the attitude of the Bush administration led to the torture that occurred in Abu Ghraib, in Guantanamo, and at CIA rendition camps. The Bush administration has repeatedly taken the position that the end of fighting terrorism justifies any means and the means became horrific and unconscionable.
Why haven’t the presidential candidates spoken out against the unprecedented claims by the Bush administration of the authority to detain human beings, including American citizens, without providing any semblance of due process? I am still waiting for the first presidential candidate to ask the simple question: How many people is the United States now detaining or has it detained as part of the war on terrorism?
The government never has disclosed the answer to this question, nor even begun to try. For example, how many individuals are being held at rendition camps across the world that operate immune from public scrutiny and the bounds of the law? We don't know.
The Bush administration has claimed the authority to indefinitely detain American citizens and resident non-citizens apprehended in the United States for crimes planned in the United States without providing any of the Constitution’s protections. This is no less than a claim of presidential authority to suspend the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments.
Why haven’t the presidential candidates spoken out against the government’s action in holding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in a manner that clearly violates international law? Guantanamo has become a symbol throughout the world of the United States ignoring fundamental principles of human-rights law. The Bush administration has claimed that it can detain individuals it designates as enemy combatants in Guantanamo until the end of the war on terrorism, which the President says will last long beyond our lifetimes.
Why haven’t the presidential candidates spoken out against the Bush administration’s illegal and unconstitutional program of electronic surveillance of American citizens without a warrant? The Fourth Amendment requires a warrant for wiretapping of conversations or interception of electronic communications. A federal statute, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, is explicit that all electronic surveillance must be pursuant to a warrant under the procedures prescribed in that law or under Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control Act of 1968.
But the Bush administration has claimed that the President has the authority to ignore the Constitution and the federal statute in the name of national security. There is, though, no stopping point to this argument. If the President can authorize warrantless electronic surveillance, why not warrantless searches of people’s homes? In fact, if the President can suspend the Fourth Amendment for the sake of national security, why not the First Amendment or even the Constitution’s requirement for elections?
Few, if any Presidents, in American history have shown such disregard for the Constitution and the rule of law. Yet none of the presidential candidates have made this a campaign issue. Why? The answer is clear: they don’t think it will sell with the voters. They fear that criticizing the abuses of the Bush administration will be taken as being weak in fighting terrorism.
But I believe that the candidates underestimate the American people and the national commitment to the Constitution and the rule of law. It is not about questioning fighting the war on terrorism. But it is about expressing the view that we can do so effectively without giving up our moral and legal commitment to the most basic human rights. I do not believe that I am overestimating the American people in thinking that the vast majority agree that George Bush, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzales, and Donald Rumsfeld have unnecessarily trampled fundamental constitutional rights.
Unquestionably, they have done so for the noble goal of making the country safer. But the presidential candidates need to remind the voters of the wisdom of the late Justice Louis Brandeis, who observed that the greatest threat to liberty comes from those acting for beneficent purposes. He said that people born to liberty know to resist the tyranny of despots. The insidious threat to freedom comes from well meaning people of zeal with little understanding of what the Constitution is about. Justice Brandeis, of course, never knew Alberto Gonzales or Donald Rumsfeld, but he could not have picked better words if he had.
CHS Note: I'd also encourage everyone to watch the just released short film from Alliance for Justice, One-Sided Debate.
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Welcome, Sir.
Welcome to Firedoglake, Professor Chemerinsky!
Thank you and I am delighted to take your questions and respond to your comments for the next hour.
Welcome, Prof. Chemerinsky. It’s an honor to have you here today. Your post raises a lot of the issues that we have talked about and advocated for or against with our elected representatives over the last few years. One question that I often get from readers is why lawyers are not doing more for the cause of justice themselves, and I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on what we members of the bar could be doing more of as well?
It’s a puzzle why the presidential candidates haven’t been discussing this — because it is so fundamental to the foundations of our liberty that we do debate these issues in the open. And that we respect the rule of law.
Welcome, Dr. Chemerinsky.
Back in 2003, I ran a letter from the late Dr. Joan Fitzpatrick (who I also interviewed) about Bush’s apparent violations of human-rights laws in Afghanistan, and she believed even then that Bush and Rumsfeld were likely candidates for war-crimes charges, including those not just within the realm of the Hague but on our own books.
And obviously, it’s only gotten worse since.
I wonder if you could assess for us the likelihood of these men facing trial on such charges.
Why aren’t the presidential candidates speaking out against the egregious abuses of the Bush administration in fighting the war on terrorism?
I always thought it was because the moderate Democrats lacked the Stones to get things done? Some people think that they are getting payoffs/campaign cash and or blackmail.
Others think that the Democratic leadership is worried about going down on warcrimes themselves.
They can’t still be scared about looking weak on terror? I mean its been G.W who has let Ossama live free in Pakistan all these years while our troops have been busy in Iraq.
Anyway what is your take?
gee Hi Professor Chemerinsky,
what a treat to have you here today!
thanks so much Christy
Dear Christy,
Thanks so much. I am delighted to be here. I think that you raise an excellent question as to why lawyers are not doing more. But I think that it is important to note that many lawyers have been representing those who are in Guantanamo and who have legal issues as a result of the war on terror. Many firms — large and small — have been providing pro bono representation, often with the threat of losing clients. My guess is that lawyers aren’t doing more because they are unsure of what they can do. Probably the easiest answer to that problem is contact organizations dealing with the issue and see if they need volunteer legal assistnce.
Welcome and thanks; it seems your first question is the McGuffin. Why are the candidates and while we are at it, so many others ignoring so much? Is it because the MSM ignores it? Why would they ignore it?
Would we expect the “noos” to ignore something that will be extremely critical next year, were the democrats to win the election?
Something is very wrong when the supposed news is as one sided as Pravda got it’s reputation for. Truth or lies the old saying went. It makes one suspect the news is a part of the upcoming coup.
Thanks for blogging at FDL, Professor C.
What we have in this country is a breakdown of moral and ethical leadership. If our congressional leaders, Pelosi, Hoyer and Reid, had even a bit of moral courage or awareness of what has happened to this country in the past seven years and three months we would have, at least, had an attempt at impeachment and a showdown vote. That hasn’t happened.
I believe that the United States has violated international human rights treaties as part of fighting the war on terrorism. My hope is that there will be a full investigation and even war crimes prosecutions where appropriate. I don’t have a sense of likelihood. It may depend on who comprises the new administration.
Prof. Chemerinsky:
Welcome. You touched on a point that concerns me. (I asked this question of Drew Days at Yale and he said that the Supreme Court would not let it happen.)
This administration is already on record that “if the AG says it is legal, then it is legal.”) What I fear is a September (or January) surprise, some alleged terrorist threat again the US, specifically DC. The DHS would declare a Code Red emergency and the AG would rule that in this crisis, an election (or installation of a new President) cannot take place. (Remember that Mayor Giuliani tried this gambit in NY after 9/11.)
My concern is the the Supreme Court, as currently constituted might go along with this. What are your thoughts on this matter?
Marty Cobern
Also, I don’t know if you’ve had an opportunity to watch the John Adams mini-series that has been showing on HBO the last few weeks based on the book from David McCollough. But it has struck me anew how flawed as human beings the Founders were, yet how their perceptions of their own flaws and egos and jealousies led them to fashion the constitution and the bill of rights, and all of our checks and balances in such a fashion as to play those flaws off one another.
And yet they seem not to have accounted for a government wherein the jealousies of the legislative branch prerogatives on power would be cast aside for a full obeisance to party loyalty such as we saw for years with the GOP-led Congress and the Bush Administration essentially being given a rubber stamp by them for any and all overreach and with little oversight.
I’ve been struggling to find some means of correction — of re-balancing — but it looks like a very long road ahead for all of us. I’d love your thoughts on how a correction might take place on the restoration of balance and accountability in government.
Professor…do critiques of WH policy by the Presidential candidates need to be cleared by the WH.
Yet none of the three presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, or Barack Obama discussed this
Yeah we have been attacking our own a lot on this but what about John McCain?
When is the press going to ask the *cough* Maverick a tough question like John are you going to prosecute anyone in the White House for War Crimes or are you content with the Bush Administration’s arguments that Abu Graib etc were all done by low level troops without the knowledge, consent or (cheering cries for more by Darth)?
The New York Times broke the story of the warrantless electronic eavesdropping. The Washington Post broke the story about the rendition camps. Each was threatened with prosecution for revealing secret information.
The difficulty is that we don’t know what else has occurred that has not been revealed. This administration has done a better job of controlling the news and preventing leaks than any in recent memory.
I wish the news media were more aggressive in exposing government abuses and I wish that this year’s political candidates would speak out against the abuses that have occurred as part of the war on terrorism.
Not that I know of, unless they would touch on classified matters — which can be finessed by critiquing them in very broad terms which don’t reveal any operation details and such. It can be tricky in a political context — but it’s certainly done - one only needs to look to past campaigns to see that.
Do we know just who is threatening these law firms with a loss of business?
Yeah! and would the Bushies close the stockmarket and freeze people’s bank accounts so we couldn’t leave?
I think that political candidates are appealing to what they think will get them votes. They believe that the American people don’t really care about the abuses that have occurred in the war on terror. They fear that complaining about the abuses in the war on terror will make them look soft. I believe that they are grossly underestimating the American people and its commitment to the rule of law and human rights.
Hi, Dean Chemerinsky. (You’re now the Dean at UCI, or soon to be, right?)
What do you think the chances are that the issue of possible prosecution of members of the Bush Administration will be opened up during the campaign?
The Pentagon has, for one — there was a huge amount of pushback in the last year when the Pentagon proposed limiting firm ability to provide counsel for Gitmo detainees and also have firm representation for any contracting or other matters, even though the firms in question had done all of the “Chinesse wall” ethical requirements to ensure that those working on criminal defense and those doing contract negotiations were utterly separated. It was though to be an effort at stifling the criminal representation, and was squelched pretty early on.
But there is still some fear that larger defense contractors won’t risk alienating the Pentagon by hiring firms who have pro bono representation going, even those firms who have long histories of civil liberties work. It’s very high stakes, because that’s a lot of potential lost revenue for a large firm to risk — and the people pushing on this know that very well indeed. But when it got exposed to public scrutiny, it was the Pentagon who had to back down from making overt threats about it…thus far, anyway.
welcome dr chemerinsky to the lake…. great to have you to speak to us re the dismantling much of our constitution at least to my mind…. its sad to see that the dem noms aren’t talking about this…. do you think its b/c they hope to carry on as bushco has? i mean usurping the authority of the other 2 branches of gov’t? to this layman’s mind silence = consent……..
Welocme Professor Chemerinsky. Thank you for coming to FDL. Thank you Christy for making this possible.
Given Bush’s very low ratings, why would this still be a reason for candidates to do nothing and say nothing? When his ratings were high and people felt “secure” by his cowboy words to the world, this may have had some legitimacy but it seems obsolete and invalid now. Whatever the fear is that holds back the candidates, won’t that still be the case if one of the Democrats becomes president? Will the war pressure be removed?
If the Democrats had pursued impeachment of both President Bush and Vice President Cheney, they would have failed to get the 2/3 needed in the Senate to remove them. It would have been a stand on principle, but would risk alienating moderate Republicans who were a key to the Democrats victory in 2006 and crucial in November 2008.
Our Political class is so convinced that the average American voter is unable to hold 2 consecutive thoughts in their heads any more complicated than “Put pants on, THEN put shoes on”, that they refuse to even try. Why should they? Our mechanism for demanding more forthright discussion, the American Media don’t hold them to account, because the media is just as convinced. It’s all “old news”. Never mind the precedents it sets. And pay no attention to the man behind the curtin…
Absent the unthinkable, the elections will occur in November. Ever since the founding of the United States, there have been presidential elections every four years — in war and in peace. I cannot imagine the government canceling the elections. Nor can I imagine that the courts would allow this absent the most extreme circumstances.
The difficulty is that we don’t know what else has occurred that has not been revealed. This administration has done a better job of controlling the news and preventing leaks than any in recent memory.
We already have enough to launch investigations and get subpoenas once we do that the Bushies will leak to the press like mad as they try and protect themselves.
I blame Mark Penn for that.
Sir, the Military Commissions Act accords the President the final authority to interpret the meaning and applicability of treaty obligations such as Geneva. Now, to this Great Unwashed peon, that directly and explicitly contravenes the Judicial powers clause in the Constitution, and must be held unconstitutional. What is the likelihood of such ever happening?
‘Cully Stimson’
I have not seen the mini-series on John Adams, though I did read the book. You are right, of course, that the framers knew that government officials are human beings and however well intentioned, have the flaws of human beings. The elegant structure that they created in the Constitution generally requires two branches of government for any important government action (i.e., adopting a law, bringing an enforcement action, entering into a treaty, waging war). What is so troubling about the Bush administration is its claim of unilateral authority which it argues cannot be limited by statute. This is inconsistent with the very idea of a Constitution based on checks and balances.
I have lived long enough by now that nothing much surprises me. I keep my tinfoil haberdashery close at hand, and will be worrying about a coup right up till Jan 20th 2009.
Of course it never occured to any of us that all 3 of our branches of Government would acquiesce to the destruction of Habeus Corpus rights.
Prof. Chemerinsky — Any thoughts on the paucity of legal foundation for so much of the most recently released Yoo memorandum on torture? I was personally appalled by the fact that he avoided addressing Youngstown and so many other precedents that I felt were directly relevent. And the outright dismissal of the Fourth Amendment was stunning in its scope and its long-term ramifications — as you say in a “war on terror” which is seemingly without end.
I expected it to be bad, but not as bad as it was — the descriptions of what conduct was allowable were stomach-churning, and the use of the OLC to front this was infuriating. Any thoughts specifically about this — and how to reverse this now that the conduct is already out there as approved by the executive branch? Because as I see it, that’s going to be generations in the undoing — especially the damage to our reputation under the rule of law and human rights advocacy. It’s a mess…
You might add the 8th Amendment about cruel and unusual punishment to your list. Yoo goes into considerable length about it in his memo.
Why have lawyers and lawyerly societies not publically condemned Yoo. Why have those bars where he serves not sought to expel him? Why does the Boalt School of Law continue to employ him?
Finally, what is your opinion of Yoo’s necessity and self-defense arguments that permit torture up to and including murder in defense of the homeland? Or his assertion that unlawful alien combatants have no rights and can be treated anyway the government sees fit?
No. Obviously, if they use material they received in classified briefings, there would be different issues. But otherwise, the candidates do not need to clear their comments with the White House.
We need to take this clown down at somepoint.
The Beltway crowd, including Clinton and Obama, will do nothing against Bushco. What legal actions can a citizen take such as requesting disbarment by the various Bar associations and what is current law regarding “private criminal prosecutions?
As an example, I wanted to initiate a complaint against John Yoo in California, only to find he has no standing in the Cal. Bar, yet does in 9th Circuit. How does one proceed?
Dr. Samuel Johnson may have said it better than Justice Brandeis - “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
I agree with you. The Military Commissions Act says that those held as unlawful combatants do not have access to federal court via a writ of habeas corpus. They must go through the military proceedings and then seek review in the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. The detainees can bring claims only based on the Constitution or federal statutes, not treaties like the Geneva Accords. I believe that this restriction on jurisdiction is unconstitutional. It is an issue now pending before the Supreme Court.
Welcome Professor Chemerinsky.
agree, agree, agree - yet I foolishly take heart in the tone of Senator Obama’s speech on race and the one last week on the economy - both times was wowed to hear a politician speak as if his audience had the intellectual wherewithal to make up their own minds and weren’t treated like 9 year old simpletons - we shall see
And your other 2-3 “why haven’ts”
The answer is easy. Because all 3 prez candidates want the powers to do the same thing when they become prez.
The Yoo memo is quite astounding in its claim of presidential authority to ignore treaties and statutes prohibiting torture. It says that there is an inherent presidential power that Congress cannot limit by statute and that therefore the Torture Act and treaties prohibiting torture are unconstitutional. This is deeply troubling for a Constitution founded on a commitment to checks and balances.
Is there a decent size pool of possible AG’s you think capable of restoring the Justice Department in a new administration, be it Republican or Democratic?
and any candidates stand out to you?
Professor Chemerinsky,
What’s your take on the refusal of the Department of Justice to enforce properly issued subpoenas issued to Karl Rove, Josh Bolten, and Harriet Miers by the Senate Judiciary Committee?
One of the articles of impeachment approved by the House Judiciary Committee against Richard Nixon was his refusal to comply with congressional subpoenas. Is there any way you can see to bring pressure on the Attorney General, short of impeachment?
An important meme surfaced recently: Arbitrary suppression of due process.
(Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments as mentioned above)
Stasi-like activities are afoot and the Christo-fascists are enacting a blatantly
unconstitutional agenda of intimidating and smearing US citizens who have demonstrated
success in civil rights and/or union organizing activities.
1) What recourse do U.S citizens targeted by FISA have to appeal their status?
Why is the path to redress not better outlined and advertised to the general public?
2) Why are there not more ACLU lawyers and contacts actively seeking such cases?
They seem to be so understaffed, a person has to either call on *one* designated day a week
and hope to get through during a one hour window of time or mail or fax the details of the situation,
which could be very risky and guarantees no response.
3) Why are the candidates not being asked to outline specific course of redress for such cases,
should they be elected?
Seems that the way for a candidate to stand out is to speak to these issues directly.
If Watch List stats are correct, there is an average of 3000 US Citizens PER STATE who
have been targeted. How will the legal community and the candidates reach out to their
own US citizens (not just Gitmo detainees) who have been affected?
There were stories about top level Bush administration officials indicating that clients should stop doing business with law firms representing the detainees. (I am sure you can find them on the web.) There was an outcry from the bar that these lawyers were heros, respresenting those with no other means to a lawyer.
This is wrong for a couple of reasons. First, impeachment proceedings would entail an investigative phase. This is their central importance, getting what was done out there and on the public record. Second, just perhaps just under half of Americans would like to see impeachment. This is a far higher number than at the time of the Nixon impeachment (when it was in the 20s). Third, there is no such thing as moderate Republicans (at least in any numbers) and hasn’t been for a decade. Fourth, it was independents not Republicans who broke for Democrats in 2006.
At least the Yoo memo is simply a by now discredited melange of grandiose legal narcissism, not a federal law like the MCA (which, admittedly, contains some of the overreaching plenary presidency sentiments).
What I find troubling is that the GOP packed Supreme court has done nothing to stop Bush on Torture, FISA etc. Why would they let Bush establish these powers if a Democrat looks very likely to win in November?
I think the lack of discussion of political candidates because they don’t think it will cost them votes and they fear that discussions would harm them politically.
Professor Chemerinsky
Thanks for joining us. I wonder whether you’ve heard lawyers expressing concerns about having their communications with clients monitored, as has apparently happened to CCR and others representing those accused of terrorism. Though less egregious than the wholesale abuses of Constitutional rights, if Attorney Client privilege can be violated anytime a lawyer represents an unpopular client, it seems to really threaten our legal system (and make it riskier for lawyers to represent these clients pro bono).
The Supreme Court did invalidate the Bush administrative order for military commissions in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (2006). My hope is that the Court will strike down key portions of the Military Commission Act in two cases pending before it this term.
You take a much more charitable views of the candidates than I think is warranted. To run for prez, you have to have an ego & drive as big as all outdoors. Have you ever know such a person to give up power in advance of even being elected? Seems pretty far fetched to me.
You can find out where a person is admitted to the bar and file a grievance there.
Plus a televised investigation would likely build support for impeachment right now only us political junkies could tell you why Bush should be impeached. Making a case on TV would encourage America to talk about this issue and build support for impeachment.
Well, whatever we think of the Roberts Court in general, and their Medellin vs Texas decision in particular, at least the latter explicitly renounced the Bu’ush assertion plenary presidential authority.
Looks like reining the presidency back in a bit now that Bu’ush is on his way out.
Molly Ivins and Lou Dubose tackled that in their discussion of Tom Nelson and the “sneak and peeks” under the Patriot Act that were done, including he thinks going through his client files. Just as one exampleamong several that they document in “Bill of Wrongs.”
Torture violates international law, including treaties ratified by the United States, and a federal law. The President has no authority to ignore a treaty and a federal law. I want so much to see candidates discuss this and condemn torture and what this administration has allowed.
Thanks I could use some goodnews.
This is a great discussion. Thank you for being here today Erwin.
And yet John Yoo will be your colleague in the larger UC system as you take on the Dean position there.
I’ve asked this question of a Chancellor of a large, private university. And you yourself have been involved in a question of academic freedom recently. I wonder what you think the appropriate response to John Yoo is, particularly since he’s still teaching Constitutional law.
But Medellin was a very unique case that involved whether the President, in essence, could overturn a final judgment of the Texas courts. Also remember in ruling against Medellin, the Court upheld a death sentence.
Yes, but the MCA was supposedly the remedy for the deficiencies that the Court found in Hamdan, i.e. that the Congress needed to weigh in on the matter. It did so with the MCA. If the Court does limit or reject parts of the MCA it will have to be on other grounds.
Yeah and I want to hear on TV again all the reasons why torture does not work. Like they will say anything to stop the pain.
Attorney-client communications should be inviolate. There should need to be a special court order based on probable cause that they are committing a crime in their communications to have them intercepted. It is very troubling that this has occurred.
I believe that Bush and Cheney are true believers in the need for expansive executive power, especially so when there is a Republican President.
As I was reading through the Yoo memo, I kept wondering how he could possibly make the arguments he was making and think they would hold up to any scrutiny given that we have prosecuted others — including at Nuremberg — for attempting to make the same defenses. And we’ve prosecuted American soldiers since that time for misconduct along those lines in Vietnam and elsewhere. It showed an astonishing lack of compassion and a deliberate misreading of history and the law to put something like that together.
Channel surfing the other night brought me to a History channel documentary of the trial of Herman Goering as told by his jailer, Col. Burton Andrus the warden of the Nuremberg prison during the famous trials. One of the charges against all the defendants in the dock was “waging aggressive war”. How is the Mess O’Potamian misadventure any less of an aggressive war than the blitzkreig of Poland by Hitler and Goering?
Justice Robert Jackson whose statement at Nuremberg about the trials were the “most significant tributes that Power has ever paid to Reason” surely never imagined in his wildest nightmares the misappropriation of power and total lack of reason present in this country post 9/11. Being able to temper power with reason was, it seems, the original intent of the men who wrote the Constitution, and in less than a decade the republicans managed to forgoe the principles of the Republic for money, petty ambition and naked Power.
And, just for background, here is UC’s faculty code of conduct: http://209.85.173.104/search?q.....=firefox-a
Thank you. It is my pleasure. I think we need to find a way to communicate to the presidential candidates that much of what has been done in the name of the war on terror has taken away our rights without making us any safer. The candidates should speak out against torture and indefinite detention and warrantless eavesdropping.
Yeah. The only good thing I took away from that ruling was the explicit and rather detailed renunciation of overriding presidential authority, the recognition of both congressional and judicial purview. That has to be a step in the right direction, however small.
Yoo thinks war crimes are legal whats next hiring teachers who think genocide is cool? There are absolute values and war crimes and torture being wrong are two of them!
I think you answered your own “How he could possibly . . .” question in your last sentence: “an astonishing lack of compassion”
According to Feith, anyone who doesn’t want us to torture our enemies (and we know who you are) is an a**hole.
But what Cheney, Addingtion, Yoo, Bradbury, and Bybee among others did with torture was to define it out of existence either with regard to what constitutes torture or the applicability of treaty or law to govern it.
I think that the administration, including John Yoo, truly believed that broad presidential power was needed to make the country safer. But that is why I included the quotation from Justice Brandeis. The real danger to liberty comes from people who claim to be acting for beneficial purposes. And these are not minor deprivations of human rights. Torture, CIA rendition camps, and indefinite detentions are not acceptable in any nation.
It is true that torture and intimidation produce false positives.
People will say anything, particularly if they have been traumatized,
even if it means giving people what they think they want.
They will say anything to appease the aggressors.
The false confessions allow total responsibility to be pinned on
one individual, when the issues are systemic.
Lynching one individual will not lead to peace.
It only allows the aggressors to continue abusing the system.
Professor Chemerinsky,
My apologies for the naive question.
If one was a citizen of a country other than the United States, and living in that other country, could one, as an ordinary citizen make a complaint re Bush, Cheney, Yoo etc. etc. to the World Court, or does one need specific standing?
With gratitude
Those in the Bush administration could have learned a great deal from learning about the Nuremberg Trials. They are a profound reminder of the importance of basic principles of morality and human rights in government. They also tell a chilling tale of how lawyers can be used to facilitate injustice. The ends don’t justify some means and lawyers need to stand up and say that, even when they are just following orders.
I hope the candidates are simply selling the American people short. Still, we have had years now for someone, anyone, to show leadership on these issues and it has not happened. I remember watching as the Gonzales’ memos initially came to light; watching as not one person in Congress took the lead; watching as not one public resignation from DOJ was proferred with condemnation of the proceedings; watching as the media took at least one memo expressly discussing how to use a label - “unlawful enemy combatant” - as a vehicle for avoiding war crimes charges under the War Crimes Act; watching while Congress went beyond the Yoo/Bybee/Philbin/Flanigan memos, which at least could be construed to be limited to actual illegal combatants, and with the MCA create irrebuttable presumptions that all kinds of people who could not have begun to qualify under that label would be “determined” by fiat to be within its parameters.
With diplomatic failings - diplomats publically resigned and penned op pieces in protest. With military failings, including those associated with the kangaroo courts - military officers suffered retaliation for holding firm and even resigned to engage in public protest. With the Judicial failings of the FISC in covering up the illegal wiretap programs, even from other FISC judges, at least one judge prominently resigned in protest.
But throughout the Department of Justice, silence or gushing recitations about the President’s judgement. Throughout most of the media, silence or rallying to make the Geneva Conventions discussion into one about PX rights, and not one about freezing a man to death on no evidence, or disappearing children. Military officers show up and support waterboarding - and other officers immediately resign and pen pieces in protest. Mukasey lends his support to not investigating war crimes, and not a squeak out of DOJ.
The institutional sources of leadership - churches, Congress and most most most importantly, our own Dept of Justice, not only failed to stand against Executive branch crime, they actively solicited it and shook their pom poms for it. That changes a nation. I don’t know how you go back to a respect for law, when DOJ has successfully combated cases like el-Masri’s and Arar’s and when the culture of Justice has become one warped to fit a mold of elitist rights to torture and Constitutional carve outs to put prosecutors in the pockets of criminals, corporate interests and political prosecutions.
If any of the candidates did even bother with bare mentions of concern over Executive branch crimes, would we even believe them? Is there any trustworthy institution of law or government left?
Feith can meet me in a dark alley and say that to my face if he wants to:) Talking tough is so easy for Bush, Darth and the Neocons I wonder if they ever got in a fight in their lives?
What, and be called “soft on National Defense” (or worse) by the Mighty Wurlitzer? McCain who was tortured for gods sake even supports torture because Jack Bauer has shown Americans on TeeVee that torture works! Screw the reality, morality and legality, it works for Jack Bauer!
I apologize that I was not able to get to all of the questions. I have to leave now to go teach my class. Thanks to all who wrote. It was a pleasure participating and I hope that I’ll be able to do it again sometime soon.
Prof. Chemerinsky,
I wonder why you keep saying “the prez has no authority to (fill-in-the-blank).” He obviously has taken the authority and no one has stopped him. In my book, that means he has the authority. He doesn’t care what the law says, and apparently no one will hold him to the law. So isn’t it a fait accompli?
That is what I want our Democratic Presidential candidates to say on TV.
Any comment regarding the multicultural debacle and treatment of Duke lacrosse team players?
Prof. Chemerinsky — thanks so much for stopping in to FDL. You are welcome back any time — we really appreciate you making time for this discussion today. Very much appreciated!
Professor Chemerinsky, thank you so much for having this discussion with us. It has been a great privilege to have you here.
Time flies when we’re having fun . . .
Thanks so much for the post, for the abundance of links within it, and for coming by the ‘Lake!
Thanks for coming over Prof Chemerinsky come hang when ever you want :)
I watch the MSNBC “Lockup” shows from time to time. That we can and do effectively deal ongoing with the worst sort of domestic criminal human monsters imaginable in a manner consistent with full due process simply negates this “president must do whatever it takes to ‘protect’ us” canard.
Moreover, as I recall, Bu’ush’s Oath mandates that he protect and defend the Constitution. Competent others get hired to protect me.
Thank you!
Awesome thread.
Yoo I don’t think addressed Nuremberg in his memo. He was trying to finesse the Constitution, federal law, and treaty obligations to justify torture and protect torturers, but the problem for him with Nuremberg is that it was governed by its own set of legal principles and didn’t owe much to legal precedence or structures that preceded it. Some have questioned the validity of Nuremberg on this basis, but what it really does is say to the Yoos and torturers of this world is that you can run but you can not hide. I do not think it will but as Nuremberg happened once it can happen again.
Professor,
Thank you so much for your work in safeguarding our constitutional rights, but also for your role preparing young lawyers to truly adhere to the canons. Your advocacy for both a robust legal education and one’s continuing commitment to professional responsibility is sorely needed.
Best wishes at UC-Irvine.
derfft (CHS notes: Ooops, I got up to get a cup of tea, and The Peanut typed a note…)
Yoo was making it up as he went along. He really didn’t care what the body of the memo said. He cared only that the bottom line said the prez could do whatever he wanted to do. All the rest is useless filler.
Thank you, Professor Chemerinsky for coming to FDL! Thank you Christy for facilitating this discussion.
Amen to that.
In 2006, the ABA made a statement that Bush & future Presidents should stop making use of Presidential signing statements. Nothing has angered me more than Bush’s use/abuse of signing statements. What is your take on Presidential signing statments? How do we stop them?
i’m ready for law school!! jk lol - thanks for visiting the lake dr chemerinsky - very illuminating for a dim bulb as i am ;o)
The court in question is the International Criminal Court (ICC). It is governed by the Rome Statute. Article 11 of it states:
So short answer is no.
Oh, I don’t know juslin. I think you should save your money for some other school. The law doesn’t seem to matter very much anymore.
I agree. I would only add badly written poorly referenced useless filler.
Accept your modification as a substantial improvement. *g*
I’m a former Watergate freak. I vividly recall Alexander Butterfield’s testimony disclosing the existence of a White House taping system and how elated I was hearing that news because once heard, those recordings would force Nixon’s impeachment or resignation. It did. What we have going on now is easily 100 times worse than obstruction of justice and I’m alarmed that the citizenry hasn’t responded to these horrors as I have. If our democracy survives the Cheney/Bush slaughter of the Constitution now, I’m quite confident that should this abuse happen again in a decade or two, America won’t survive. What a very sad thought.
I think there is a justified fear on the part of Democrats that if they have to take these issues to the Supreme Court, the Court will back authoritarian government as against the Bill of Rights and Habeas Corpus. There would be vigorous dissent from any such decision from Souter, Stevens, and the two Clinton appointees, but the decision would stand until the Court changed and the issue could be revisited. It would be like the school segregation decision all over again.
The Senate brought this on themselves and us by approving Roberts and Alioto.
Hugh @ 101
Thanks very much. Hmmm …
With gratitude
For the respondant asking where Yoo is admitted to the Bar - PA.
http://www.democraticundergrou.....566#512903
If having to directly deal with Youngstown was too much for Yoo, it’s no surprise that he wouldn’t want to deal with the precedent of a court that held government lawyers accountable for attempting to give legal cover to their govt for its crimes against humanity.
Especially when the chief US prosecutor in the Nuremberg trials was Robert H. Jackson, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
How do we get some accountability on such flagrant constitutional abuses when the justice department enables them at the moment?
Me too. WJ this morning, in keeping with the theme of the Newseum, was asking callers what’s the most important news event of their lives. Had I been able to get thru, I would have said the seven years of the W admin in which the U.S. has become a country of torture, a country that repealed habeus corpus after hundreds of years, and a country that relentless kills and creates homelessness in a country we gratuitously invaded.
It is time for democrats to wrap themselves not in the love of flag (which after all is a symbol) but rather in the respect for the constitution.
Bush and Cheney should be charged with treason, and they should recieve the maximum punishment allowed by law.
ecahn - at this point school is the FURTHEST thing from my mind - i’m just trying to keep my head above water :o)
If that’s the fear, then expand the court to 11 justices. We’ll see if the current roster has the wisdom and recognizes the need to take a “stitch in time to save nine”.
Thank you Professor for saying what our presidential candidates will not say, and what too many of their supporters overlook too as they bash each other. These are fundamental issues, which is why I am only a lukewarm supporter of any of the three.
Support Center for Constitutional Rights, Amnesty International, and ACLU and demand answers from presidential and congressional candidates.