Neither the attorney general at the time, John D. Ashcroft, nor his deputy, Larry D. Thompson, were aware of the 81-page memo when it was written and sent to the Pentagon in March 2003, according to several former senior department officials. The Pentagon was told in December 2003 to disregard the legal advice in the memo after Justice Department lawyers raised objections.
And from John Yoo, in an interview with Esquire:
Esquire: That’s the one that’s been so strongly criticized. Goldsmith said it was slapdash and wasn’t well reasoned.
Yoo: I think that’s unfair, first because Goldsmith never issued an opinion of his own. He’s certainly free to criticize. It goes back to unless you’ve actually made the hard decision yourself, then you don’t really know how you think it through, what you would do. So he says “slapdash opinion,” but we have no idea what he would have done, because he left. Second thing is, it went through the normal process opinions go through in the Justice Department. It was primarily worked on by career staff people, and then went through a process of editing and review by different offices within the department, no different than any other.
Esquire: Ashcroft saw it?
Yoo: He approved it. And so the idea that’s its slapdash, or it was haphazard — I don’t think was true.
To be fair, Yoo may be referencing his first torture memo draft — the Bybee Memo — in his comments, but he’s certainly not saying that the second one — the recently released Yoo memorandum — differs in substantance from the first, at least that seems to be what he’s saying. So, if they weren’t so different, why not be certain that Ashcroft signed off on it before you disseminated it to the DOD as OLC policy? Why the rush that you had to get it out on a Saturday? Why the sneaky weekend pass through with no notice to the upper echelons at DOJ if it was all approval and backslapping for the Yoo gang?
For that matter, if there were problems with the memo, why did it take so long to rescind it? How deeply was it hidden? And, what’s up with the years and years worth of classification "pixie dust" for no apparent justifiable reason? Who ordered the classification — Marcy’s asked this already, but I’m asking as well — because Yoo didn’t have the authority to do so on his own according to everyone I’ve talked to about this.
This whole thing reeks of back-channel machinations and sneaky manipulation of the levers and processes behind the scenes to pull a fast one and force your misguided and unsupported view of the world and the undermining of the law to get your way…which points, again, directly to Dick Cheney and his minion squad. Doesn’t it?
Shouldn’t someone ask Ashcroft and Yoo directly — and on the record or on camera — about the discrepancies in their accounts?
(YouTube is Evanescence "Lies.")
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Zed, baby!
Oh, just a simple misunderstanding among very serious people, I’m sure.
I would much rather ask the question of Cheney and Addington.
Boxturtle (Under oath, hooked up to a lie detector, with truth serum. And a waterboard just off camera)
“”
Under oath, indeed
Well, so would I, but they appear to be answer averse in pretty much any context. (Other than the Pat Fitzgerald deposition of Cheney wherein shouting was said to be heard in the room, which I have heard from more than one source but haven’t been able to get anyone to go on the record on it…and damn it, that’s a story I would LOVE to hear…)
“Shouldn’t someone ask Ashcroft and Yoo directly — and on the record or on camera — about the discrepancies in their accounts?”
You mean have the media actually **gasp** do it’s job?!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA **cough** HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA **gasp* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA … HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA … HA … HA.
Ahem.
Thanks for the smiles, Christy, along with the never-ending optimism that our corporate whores in the media will, some day, some way, do what they’re supposed to do.
I like to poke them on occasion, just to make sure they are still breathing…
yes, on all fronts, Christy
It’s a good thing your intent is so honorable, Christy. If your intent was to cause serious damage to the body politic, you might get in trouble.
Good thing Yoo wrote that memo for you. Otherwise someone might think you’re just a hick with a stick. (h/t Jonathan Turley on KO last night)
Well again. The Yoo memo came out on March 14th and the Iraq war began on the 19th. Yoo says that the memo was not meant for Iraq. That is, given the timing, hard to believe. The memo talks about al Qaeda and Taliban. While there were no Taliban, if you are to believe Dick Cheney there were al Qaeda all over Iraq. More generally the memo covers unlawful combatants, i.e. civilians and it is precisely these that were tortured at Abu Ghraib.
Imagine my surprise, Christy! Mahalo for the hat tip! Mary has an excellent comment in EPUville…! *g*
I know! Let’s get Pumpkinhead to ask Cheney!
Paging Leahy and Conyers…! ;-)
Love these posts about the Torture memos. Great research for a script idea I’m working on. Goes like this:
The Founding Fathers draft a Constitution that creates a President who, 200+ years in the future, comes back to destroy the very Constitution that created him.
Sure, all this may be the end of the Republic as we know it, but it is pure Hollywood gold.
That comes very close to Conspiracy to Defraud the United State: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eous…..m00923.htm
Per the cited document, in Hammerschmidt, Chief Justice Taft, defined “defraud” as follows:
What else does Goldsmith know?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh, man… *wiping my eyes* I needed that one today. Mweee heee…
Exactly. That is what I want someone to go after them with. There is plenty of evidence. They’ve left a trail of mass destruction.
Yoo and Ashcroft are part and parcel of the Evil that has infected our justice system, but they’re really only messengers…sherpas, if you will. We want the folks who gave them their marching orders.
Ignore the different stories, a lying GOPer is not news. Find out who slapped the classified on that memo. That’ll be a very interesting name.
Boxturtle (I bet it was someone in the VP’s office…any takers?)
Or Bush at Gonzo’s recommendation.
Hey Christie –
Ashcroft pens another one . . .this time to the good Professor
Only Yoo can make this wrong seem right
Only Yoo can make the Darthness bright
Only Yoo and Yoo alone
Can shrill me like you do
And save my ass with dreck from only Yoo
Only Yoo can make this change in law
For it’s true, Yoo are made of straw
When Yoo take the fall
I miss it all and the time that you will do
You’re my dream come true
My one and only Yoo
Only Yoo can make this change in me
For it’s true, the Hague’s your destiny
When you wrote that mess
I must confess, my ass was off the line
You’re my free pass come true
My one and only Yoo
That’s like taking candy from a baby… Darth created the classification system…!
Yoo and Ashcroft slow dancing?
Ah but see, that’s part of the problem. According to the WaPo0 article Christy linked in the first para:
My Bold. So, the document was not formally classified; they’re just keeping it a secret without it being classified Secret. Nice Catch-22.
Well, we had about an hour’s reprieve from the constant rain, and it’s about to start all over again by the look of the cloud cover outside. Thank goodness the bulk of the dog trauma has subsided here for the day…
Most excellent! Awesome job! 8-)
what you is a saying to the administration here is;
“don’t mess with me, I have you where I want you”
he’s not going down without bringing everyone else down with him and that’s a good thing
Is that the Fourth Amendment need not apply doc, do you think — the one Yoo references in his memo? I was trying to figure out the specific context in the WaPo piece on that. They weren’t completely clear, and it would have been most helpful if they had been. May have to e-mail someone over there and ask.
Elizabeth de la Vega has written a whole book about it, United States v. George W. Bush et al.: http://www.amazon.com/United-S…..1583227563 And tomdispatch.com has a lot of it online.
The thing that makes me so disgusted is this theory of Consequentialism that has become pervasive with these NEOCONS.
I’m sure it’s in Darth’s man-sized safe…!
and if yoo’s “memos” are crafted so pesestrian and detatched from our law as I seem to be reading everywhere, why isn’t the entire law profession calling for his disbarrment
Shorter Brian: “Sure, you filed your FOIA request, but you didn’t say ‘Simon says.’”
Wouldn’t you like to see that on YooTube? (g)
when I first saw John Yoo’s smarmy baby huey visage on Frontline’s the Dark Side, I did not feel sorry for him but I knew, knew, he was gonna be one more person these monsters would destroy – it’s what they do
It’s a great book — and we had her here for Book Salon on it as well. You can read the discussion here.
Send Yoo to the Hague for war crimes!!
Digg it
That was my read, that it was the 4th Amendment need not apply memo. From the title of the WaPo0 article and the date (10/2001) and all, it sure looked that way. And that seems to be the original linch-pin memo/brief that they’ve hung the whole works on.
That was my initial take on it as well — but I would have liked them to say for certain exactly which brief, although I suppose that’s hard to do when it’s still being kept under wraps to verify exactly which one is referenced.
Posted in part in an earlier thread, but it’s more pertinent to this one:
We now have some evidence that Cheney intentionally threw traditional political, ethical and legal restrictions down a rat hole. He threw normal policy processes into his own hat and threw it out the window. He obtained via Addington and a pet OLC authorization to torture, then hid it from all but a select few.
Who were they? They had secret, guilty knowledge. They knew that Cheney was behind them. That he acted for the president and that his word, rather than the pliable, easily distracted Bush’s, was law. With Cheney in command, they were home free.
They acted on that guilty knowledge. They overrode others, who were dumbfounded as they individually and slowly realized – as we did – who was making decisions, what decisions they made, and that normal policies, policy processes and chains of command were broken.
Who were they?
OT,
It seems that Blue Texan, Scarecrow, Jane,Marcy,LHP, and Christy are on a
“parallel universe’ today. Certainly not an “evil one”? I prefer to think that great minds think alike*g*
We have met the enemy and he is us. sort of.
I got curious about the timing of Yoo taking office, issuing the memo and Bybee leaving office. It turns out, Bybee “left” office on March 13, 2003 because he was confirmed by the Senate for the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. So all of those in the DOJ would have known in advance when Bybee was likely to leave. It would appear to me that issuance of the memo was held until Bybee was gone.
Russ Feingold came out against Bybee’s confirmation. Unfortunately, he was not able to question Bybee in person at the confirmation hearing, because both the confirmation hearing and the Senate vote appeared to happen on Friday, March 13, 2003, the day of Colin Powell’s infamous presentation at the UN.
The number of evil plans these guys were carrying out at the same time is just staggering to me.
Did Bybee refuse to write the memo? That seems quite unlikely, because you know Bush would have yanked his nomination immediately. Can a Federal Judge be put under oath in a Congressional hearing? This guy needs to be brought in to answer a lot of questions. He is in a unique position to clear up a lot of this mess.
we are in a inique situation;
we have a “lawyer” who wrote “memos” which endorse lawless executive powers, he wrote those memos and the executive uses them to justify anything and everything
we have GOT to dismiss those memos, there is only one way to do it SINCE we know as a fact alito and roberts will be on the same page
we must disbarr yoo, there is no other choice, if we do not, his memos will carry the weight of historical significance and create their own precedence
you must be disbarred
Except that ratification by Bush legitimizes much of Cheney’s corruption of policy and driving it secretly from his lair. Not illegal acts that can’t be made legal by an unauthorized “opinion” or by presidential fiat, but everything else. And for whatever reason, Cheney controls Bush absolutely.
But notice orchestrated collateral efforts to fill that gap; the corruption of the DOJ, the provisions slipped into legitimate legislation, the passage of ordinarily illegitimate legislation out of fear (the MCA, portions of the DTA). That makes much of what they’ve done legal and makes it harder to find out what they’ve done to get at the rest. It’s a rearguard action to avoid accountability once out of office as well as to legitimize what they’ve done in office.
Even the best rearguard actions don’t always succeed.
Registering a complaint with The State Bar of California:
http://calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/DispComp.pdf
I say we go for it. What do the FDL attorney types think?
It must be so challenging to keep impeachment off the table when things like this just keep coming to light. However, I am sure that Nancy will persevere. Great leadership in action!
First he has to be licensed in CA
I am not certain if you have to be licensed in the state where you teach
I think disbarment in one stat would be enough
we have been under seige, this has been a silent, bloodless coup
these despots were not elected into office and they knew it, their entire goal was so subvert our government, our constitution, dismantle our military, weaken our resolve and change this nation
they have accomplished all of those goals and we are nation under seige
Who is lying?
Yoo.
Not I am not lying.
I did not say you, I said Yoo
Who? Yoo.
Who? Yoo.
Yoo-Who!
Just checked the teevee line up and lo and behold at 5:45 pm ET they are showing Kafka’s “The Trial” on TCM. I haven’t seen that movie for decades.
How apt.
“Secret but unclassified” is a contradiction in terms. If it’s not classified, it can’t be “secret” in normal government parlance. Unless, of course, it inhabits Cheney’s man-sized safe.
I think you are correct. I searched his name at State Bar site and he wasn’t listed.
No, the enemy is Them. You know, those giant ants in the western desert that love sugar.
am now revisiting
Cheney’s Law – Frontline
only bec I recall it gave detailed (at the time) accounts of behind the scenes machinations, dynamics, turf wars
transcript here
JACK GOLDSMITH: David Addington was someone who had experience in all of the matters that Gonzales initially did not have experience in
JAMES RISEN, The New York Times: John Yoo very quickly begins to be the go-to guy at Justice who is willing to say yes to everything that the vice president and Addington are asking him to do.
JACK GOLDSMITH: He had views about legal issues that they found congenial. And he was very, very knowledgeable and he was very fast.
congenial. That’s what we need in a lawyer who is asked to justify torture. Mr. Congeniality. Maybe that’s what got him the job at Berkeley.
Perris is right. Disbarment would be a good thing to prevent Yoo’s inventions from setting precedents. F*ck Yoo.
Did anyone say that yet? Might be a good teeshirt message.
this is a bizarre statement
does he mean;
“anyone who will say and do anything and everything they ask him”
is knowledgeable?
yoo used pixie dust for his opinions, this was not knowledgeable it was brazen
it is the only thing we can do, otherwise he not only invented novel interperatations, he also invented the method for other presidents to do whatever they want to do;
just get a lawyer to say it is fine
I think the Goldsmith quote is actually very damning. He is saying that Yoo’s crappy work is NOT the result of incmptence, it has to be deliberate.
1,801 DAYZ AND THE KILLIB’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hardin Smith:
The extent of the corruption and decay of our entire system and social and political fabric is so depressing that I jest wanna scream: “CONFISCATE THEIR PROPERTY, DRAFT THEIR CHILDREN INTO THE MILITARY AND SEND ‘EM ALL TA JAIL!!”
Seriously, I’m not sure that our system has not been fatally compromised, if there is any possibility of saving our democracy it’s gotta start with a whole lotta folks goin’ ta Leavenworth in the next 2 years.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…THE LAW MEANS NUTHIN’ IF YA CAN’T APPLY IT!!
got it, I was reading out of context, in context he is saying yoo has no excuse
so why isn’t disbarment being discussed among our lawyers?
remember the Shakespearean quote when asked how to overthrow the government;
“first, kill all the lawyers”
without our lawyers this government is lost, we need the profession to stand up here and stand yoo down
disbar is the only solution, the only method we know will put an end to the precedence yoo is trying to set
Coming in late – for those who haven’t received one,
I got an email today from Robt Wexler asking us to submit questions for him to ask Petraeus to contact@wexlerforcongress.com
———————————————————
Dear ***,
As President Bush stubbornly refuses to change course in Iraq, it grows increasingly frustrating for those of us who have been loudly demanding a withdrawal. I know you share my frustration. Every day, I receive letters and emails from patriotic Americans who want to – somehow – personally contribute to a solution.
Now it is your turn.
Next week, General Petraeus – the architect of the failed surge policy and our chief military leader in Iraq – will be testifying before the Committee on Foreign Affairs.
For too long the Bush Administration has been in a bubble – hiding from the truth and avoiding tough questions from outraged American citizens. This time I am turning the oversight powers of Congress over to you.
I want you to be the ones asking the questions to General Petraus.
Write me back with a short reply and tell me what – specifically – you would like me to ask. Please include your first name as well as your city and state.
I will choose the best two questions and ask them to General Petraeus this Wednesday. You will be able to watch his answers directly on C-Span.
Please consider submitting a question. You already work so hard to bring accountability to this Administration and to bring our troops home from Iraq. I hope this provides you another opportunity for us to collaborate and directly influence the national dialogue.
Please keep your questions short and focused.
I look forward to your response, and thank you for participating directly in our democracy.
Congressman Robert Wexler
http://www.wexlerforcongress.com
There used to be a saying “Never blame on malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity”. BushCo has raised stupidity to an art form.
I’m seriously considering an FDL contest: Guess the number of pardons Bush will issue from the time the last polls close in November until the end of his term.
Boxturtle (Maybe I’d offer something gold as a prize, since Green doesn’t seem to buy what it used to)
I got that too.. But there wasn’t a link to where we can ask our question. Mine would be:
Define what “Victory” in Iraq would look like.
So Yoo believes Goldsmith isn’t entitled to criticize his opinion unless he’s personally “issued an opinion” of his own. (On torture? On anything? Who knows?) Awfully similar to the standard wingnut reasoning — you’re not allowed to criticize the actions of a conservative unless you personally have a solution to whatever they were supposedly dealing with. Just more of “an expert’s opinion is no better than mine” conservative anti-intellectualism.
Earth to Yoo — a professional can call your turd a turd without being obligated to polish it first.
Using simple declarative sentences and the most commonly understood meaning of the words used so that the answer can be understood by approximately 75% or more of the population of the USA.
You can reply directly to the email; it goes to the address greenwarrior put up. Here’s mine (probably too long)
On March 27, Fred Kaplan had an excellent Salon article: “What does Bush mean by ‘Victory’ in Iraq?”:
Clintons “summary” of income just HAPPENS to leave off the moeny she made from her “blind trust” (you know, the one where she made nearly 20 million off investments like Raytheon and General Electric?).
http://willyloman.wordpress.co…..ind-trust/
But you can find it located in her itemized listing, under Citybank Trust.
109 mil reported, and 15 mil not covered in her “summary”. Is that the kind of disclosure we can expect from her administration?
Maybe Yoo will be a victim of random street violence. A shiv in the rib cage that misses vital organs that doesn’t result in organ failure or death might be poetic justice.
Would impeachment proceedings limit his pardon-granting capacity? I certainly hope so, and that could be used to rally popular support for impeachment of both Bush and Cheney.